Host 2 (2:45)

Well, like paper.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (2:46)

Yes.

Guest or Co-host (2:47)

What's wrong with receipts dropping, mate?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (2:48)

Oh, my gosh. You haven't heard about this.

Guest or Co-host (2:51)

This is a public health crisis.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (2:52)

It's totally a public health crisis. Oh, my God. It's like, time to wake up.

Guest or Co-host (2:57)

Is there a connection between conditions like adhd, autism, and also other conditions as well and these microplastics?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (3:05)

Yes, there is. Pregnant women that have the highest levels of BPA in their urine, they're six times more likely to have a child diagnosed with autism by the age of 11.

Guest or Co-host (3:18)

This seems far more rock solid in terms of its evidence than Tylenol does. So why are we talking about this?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (3:25)

I don't know. We need to be talking about this.

Host 2 (3:31)

Rhonda, welcome to trigonometry.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (3:32)

I'm so excited to be here.

Host 2 (3:34)

Oh, it's great to have you on. We can't wait to have the conversation. We're going to talk about microplastics, but particularly we wanted to start with testosterone. We hear a lot of stuff about the fact that testosterone in men is dropping with each generation. Is that true?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (3:50)

There's definitely a lot of evidence suggesting that testosterone levels are dropping and sperm quality, sperm levels are dropping as well. I mean, you've probably heard that very famous statistic globally about, you know, it's over the last few decades, men are making, you know, 50% less sperm. So. So. And that's obviously very intimately related to testosterone as well. Yeah, it's definitely a problem. And the question is, why is it a problem? And, you know, I know that's something that I've been interested in. Many people are interested. Obviously a lot of men are interested in this as well. But there's a lot of changes in our environment that have happened over these few decades as well. Right. I mean, we've got a lot more chemicals that we've been exposed to. We're eating food. We're not as connected to our food anymore. So foods are a lot more processed and packaged. And, you know, there have been at least one study that I know about showing that if you take healthy young men and you give them like a large bolus, like 80 grams or something of sugar, it drops their testosterone levels by 25%. And this is like pretty immediate. Now, that's a lot of sugar, but it's like a donut and, you know, coke or something. I mean, people eat that stuff all the time in a day, day after day. And that's just kind of one example. But I think the larger problem here does have to do with a lot of the chemicals that we're ingesting on a daily basis and aren't even aware of it. Right. So these chemicals, I mean, we were having this conversation a minute ago when you guys were pouring your water in your glass. Plastic.

Host 2 (5:22)

We're about to get it selling off.

Guest or Co-host (5:24)

Yeah.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (5:27)

We have a lot of chemicals at our environment that we're ingesting that we don't know about. And these chemicals are often associated with plastic. So they're plastic associated chemicals. And they're what are called endocrine disrupting chemicals, EDCs. These are things like bisphenol A, BPA or bisphenol S, its kind of related cousin, BPs, and they're in a lot of plastics. They're in plastic water bottles. They're in the recyclable reusable water bottles. They're in aluminum cans that have sparkling water or soda. They're lining canned foods. Anything that's in a can, Aluminum can, is lined with the plastic lining that has this bpa. They're in to go coffee mugs. So those coffee mugs that you're getting at your Starbucks or your local bougie coffee joint, they're also lined with plastic that has BPA or bps. And these chemicals leach into the beverage. In the case of heating them, it's even worse. So there have been studies that have shown if you add boiling water to this BPA chemical, it increases the leaching by 55 fold into the water. So that's your to go coffee or to go tea that everyone's drinking. Walking around drinking is literally like you're getting these plastic chemicals and you're also getting pieces of plastic as well. We can talk about later. But BPA and BPS are endocrine disrupting hormones. And so essentially what that means is they're disrupting our fundamental sex hormones like testosterone, like estrogen. And they do it by a variety of different ways. You've probably heard of this xenoestrogens. So BPA is known as a xenoestrogen. It's an estrogen mimetic. And the reason it's referred to that is because it binds to the estrogen receptor and the estrogen receptor thinks it's estrogen. So it kind of confuses things. And maybe your body will stop making the estrogen. So they also bind to androgen receptors which bind to testosterone and other androgens. And they do the same thing. So essentially what happens is, you know, you'll have these chemicals binding to the receptors and your body thinks, oh, I have enough testosterone around, I don't need to make more. When really it wasn't testosterone binding to that androgen receptor, it was the bpa. And this is why you can find studies that have shown everywhere, from early development to adolescence to adulthood BPA and bps, to a lesser extent only because BPS has replaced bpa. So there's fewer studies out there just looking at its effects on testosterone. But essentially BPS is doing the same thing. And in fact, it might even be worse because it stays around longer in our bodies. But essentially these chemicals are lowering testosterone. They're lowering sperm quality, sperm morphology, the shape of the sperm, they're lowering the number, the quantity of sperm that men are producing. So there's studies in adolescents showing that healthy young adolescents with the highest level of bpa, for every log increase of bpa, now that's a lot. A log increases a lot. But for every log increase in BPA, there was almost a 50% reduction in testosterone, which is very significant. That's a lot. Again, it is a log increase. It's not just a little bit, it's a lot. But I think you get the picture here, and that is that you're seeing a dose dependent effect here. Right. And that always strengthens the data. There's also studies with adult men showing again, bisphenol A is associated with lower testosterone levels. You know, at the end of the day, that's obviously like a correlation data. You're saying, well, higher levels of bisphenol A is associated with lower testosterone. We don't really know if that's causing it. Right. Maybe they're just all the sort of packaged foods and stuff that people are eating are, you know, the chemical BP is leached into that. And so you're getting an association when it's really the packaged foods and all that. And so you can't ignore that fact that, you know, plastics and when you're eating these processed foods, they are packaged in plastic and that stuff does leach into your food, particularly if the food is hot or acidic or fatty, that will cause the leaching of it even more. But there are animal studies that have now shown causation. So you can then give, for example, rodents, male rodent, mice, high levels of bpa. And yes, it decreases testosterone. It, it does the same thing with the sperm quality. The sperm quantity, like it goes down as well. And so there's a sort of causation that's established when you look at the totality of evidence. And then we have mechanisms. So I mentioned that the BPA and bps. These are xenoestrogens. They're binding to the estrogen receptor. They're also binding to the androgen receptor. That affects testosterone. Well, they also affect the aromatase enzyme as well. And so you're just getting all these combining factors here, showing that essentially these plastic associated chemicals are dropping testosterone. I mean, I think it's pretty. At this point, just looking at the totality of evidence, it's pretty obvious that they are affecting our hormones.

Host 2 (10:44)

Well, we'll get into the plastics more as we go on, but it occurs to me that there's an interesting question to ask here, because as you might know, one of the things we've explored on the show is cultural and political changes that have been happening in society for decades now. And I guess the obvious question is, is, like, what would we expect to see in a society in which men's testosterone was dropping in this way? Like, what are some of the ways that might manifest itself?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (11:08)

Well, I mean, there's a lot of. I would say a lot of different health consequences of having lower testosterone. Obviously, one that people think of right out the gate is, you know, lower libido. Sex drive. Right. Like, that's something that's affected. Cardiovascular disease is another one that's also like bone health, brain, your mental health as well. I mean, these are all connected energy, right? Lower energy. So, yeah, I mean, there are downstream consequences to having lower testosterone. Everything from the brain to cardiovascular health to sex drive, which is also very fundamental.

Host 2 (11:46)

But is it also. What I'm getting at is something else, which is also, is it likely to be something that affects the way you view the world, the way you perceive politics or whatever, everything.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (11:58)

I mean, you know, that's not really my area of expertise. But just sort of. If I were to speculate, you know, I think that hormones very much affect the way we see the world. They affect the way we feel, they affect our mood. I mean, those things all affect our view on things, right? I mean, if we're feeling anxious, I mean, low testosterone does cause anxiety. If we're feeling anxious all the time, that's gonna affect our view and outlook on a variety of different topics, right? I mean, that's pretty obvious. I wouldn't say that. I'm an expert in that. You could talk to a psychologist or something. But it seems pretty obvious to me that it would affect people's viewpoints. Just knowing that it's pretty fundamental to brain function. But, yeah, back to the chemicals, I talked about BPA and bps, and those aren't the only ones that are affecting testosterone. It's just one of barrage of chemicals that we're ingesting, you know, on a daily basis. Another really important one is phthalates. Have you guys heard of phthalates?

Guest or Co-host (12:58)

No.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (12:59)

So phthalates are something that are often. They're found in a lot of plastics. They're added to like PVC piping to make them, to soften them a little bit. So they're obviously in the pipes that are tap water is running through. And this is global. I mean, it's not just in the United States. They're in a variety of food packaging items as well, but they're also in personal hygiene products. So they're in shampoos, shaving cream, lotion, makeup, hair products. Just, you know, women, women are definitely consuming a lot of these through, through their hygiene products, but men as well. And they're disguised under the word parfum or fragrance are the two things that will. It's a proprietary sort of blend of things. And phthalates will be in there to sort of extend the half life of the fragrance, like to make it smell good for a longer period of time. Well, phthalates disrupt testosterone on multiple levels, one in the testes. So they actually directly. I talked about the androgen receptor with bpa. Well, phthalates are directly disrupting testosterone production in the testes. And they're affecting the hypothalamic, so the HPG axis, the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis. This is the axis that's regulating our hormone production. They're affecting that as well. And phthalates are also associated with lower testosterone at every stage of life. It's really important for development that you're having normal testosterone. And women that are pregnant that have high phthalate levels, for whatever reason, either they're consuming it through their, their water or it could be coming, the phthalates could be coming from their personal hygiene products. But essentially it's really important to realize that pregnant women that have high phthalate levels are dramatically more likely to have sons that have a variety of different sexual development problems. So for one, they have undescended testicles. So these are, you know, the testicles aren't coming. They don't drop down like they're supposed to. This is a big problem. It causes fertility issues later in life. But a big, a big thing it does is it dramatically. It's probably the number one factor that plays a role in testicular cancer in like young, young, young adults, young adult males undescended testicles. The biggest, the biggest factor that, that plays a role in testicular cancer. So that's more likely to happen. Hypospadia, which is the, basically the slit on the urethra on the penis is like further back and so that's also disrupted. And then the analogenital distance, the distance from the anus to the penis is like smaller. All these things affect fertility, they affect testosterone. I mean this is, they're again affecting testicular cancer. So very, very important. This all comes down to phthalates. But even later in life, again, the phthalates are associated with lower testosterone in adolescents. And also there's large, very, very large studies. These are nutritional and health surveys that are done in the United States. They're called the NHANES studies. You know, we're talking hundreds of thousands of people and participants in these studies, men with higher level of phthalates have much lower levels of testosterone. So again we're seeing this trend of these chemicals that are put into plastic, they're put into our personal hygiene products and they're affecting hormone levels. And so I think that it's a recurring trend. There's other environmental factors as well that are affecting testosterone. I think some of the glyphosate is known to as well. I don't know that literature as well. But the plastic chemicals, I think they're endocrine disruptors. They're fundamentally affecting hormones. It's pretty obvious to me that is a culprit in declining testosterone levels and also affecting just basically, just basically hormones. Right? Estrogen and testosterone, both androgens. So not just testosterone.

Host 2 (16:58)

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Guest or Co-host (18:28)

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Dr. Rhonda Patrick (20:51)

It's totally a public health crisis. Oh, my God. It's like time to wake up, you know, I mean, the problem is we can't see these chemicals. We don't really smell them or not. We don't. It's just. They're just insidious. They're there. I know. They're in our water. They're in our drinking water. They're in our foods that we're eating. They're in our personal hygiene products. And every day, every day we're being exposed to them. It's a public health crisis. And, you know, yes, I get that there's other important public health issues to focus on, like obesity. Like, that's a big crisis, right? Let's be real. Like, that's a big crisis. But this is also a crisis, and I think it's just getting worse. And it is affecting our hormones, although obesity does also affect our hormones as well. It is something that we need to pay attention to and we need, I think we just need more focus on it from, from, you know, everything from a public health standpoint. We need, we need our politicians to maybe help intervene here, like more regulations. Like, maybe we shouldn't just be having, be able to have all these plastic chemicals, you know, so readily put in our products, in, you know, children's toys and children's, you know, you know, stuff that they're putting their mouths and stuff and chewing on all that stuff.

Guest or Co-host (22:13)

Because we've done numerous interviews with demographers and they're talking about there's a population crisis in the west and across the developed world. And look, there's societal factors for that and et cetera. But you looking, you're going, declining testosterone. You know, men are going to be more anxious, they're going to be less fertile, they're going to want sex less. You go, this is a recipe for disaster when it comes to declining birth rates, isn't it?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (22:39)

And it's not just men. These chemicals are affecting female reproduction as well. In fact, there have been studies showing that bpa, bisphenol A, that plastic compound, it's associated with women that are undergoing in vitro fertilization. If they have high BPA levels, it reduces their success rate by 50%. Wow, 50%. It also egg quality is reduced. So we're talking about. Exactly. On a very fundamental level, it is affecting human life. Right. Our ability to procreate. So and you know, both on the male and the female side and this, these chemicals are, like I said, they're everywhere. Heat really speeds up the process of it coming into our, into our water, into our beverages, into our food. Because the oxidation, it's like almost time passing. You know, it takes a lot of time for oxidation, but when you heat it up, you're oxidizing it really fast. And so you're getting just orders of magnitude more of these chemicals and plastics and stuff in your food. And that's why the to go coffee mugs are such a big. In my mind, it's like, why haven't we solved this problem? All these, you know, cardboard, plastic mugs are lined with these plastic, you know, lining to prevent the beverage from leaching and breaking down the cardboard. But you can use other things. You can use polylactic acid from sugar cane to do that. It's more expensive. But, but like this needs to be done because adding the heated beverage to these plastic lining is the worst thing you can do in terms of plastics getting into your beverage. But also these chemicals, these chemicals are really getting into the beverages. BPA, there is a pretty short half life. It's like a couple of hours, two to three hours. But the problem is we're constantly exposed to it. Just constantly, constantly, always in our body. There are ways that we can get rid of bpa. Some does come out of sweat. Mostly we're getting rid of it through our urine. So if you exercise or you're using the sauna, you can excrete a little bit more BPA through sweat. But that's not the major root of excretion of this compound. It's actually through urine. And so there is an argument to be made to increase your consumption of a certain compound called sulforaphane, which is found in, it's found in cruciferous vegetables like broccoli, kale, cabbage, that whole family.

Host 2 (25:03)

All the sexy, all the sexy greens.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (25:05)

I know, all the ones that taste so good. It's really high in actually broccoli sprouts, which is the young broccoli plant. In fact, there's like hundred times more of the precursor of sulforaphane in it. So Sulforaphane is actually formed once the plant is crushed or chopped or something. It's, by the way, it's actually a plant insecticide. So the reason the plant makes this is because it's trying to ward off insects. And so when we consume it, you know, we're chewing it and that's when we make, that's when the plant actually makes the sulforaphane. But sulforaphane activates these enzymes that are involved in excreting BPA and other harmful compounds that we're exposed to, like benzene from air pollution. And it will, for example, in benzene, in the case of benzene, it increased the excretion by 60% after just 24 hours. And again, this is like, benzene's a carcinogen. It's found in air pollution, cigarette smoke. The same enzymes that get rid of benzene are getting rid of BPA and bps and phthalates. And so there's a case to be made to eat your broccoli sprouts or supplement with a good high quality sulforaphane supplement. I mean, obviously you want to try to avoid, you know, like, I don't like to drink out of plastic bottles. Um, you know, but, but there's a case to be made to, you know, supplement with this sulforaphane supplement as well.

Host 2 (26:21)

Here's the thing, though, on the plastic bottles thing, I don't know if you saw this. There was something that went viral the other day when they did tests on glass bottles and they found they actually have more plastics in them because of the lids.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (26:30)

Yes.

Host 2 (26:31)

Is that true?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (26:31)

I'm so glad you brought this up. Let's talk about that.

Host 2 (26:33)

Let's talk about that.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (26:34)

So there, there have been. That wasn't the only study, by the way. There have been other studies that have done that, have measured. So now we're talking about microplastics. We were talking about the chemicals associated with those plastics. But part of the problem with microplastics is they are a vector for these chemicals and they're in your body, right? So microplastics range in size from like 5 millimeters, which is like the size of a grain of rice, to like 100 nanometers, which is like a thousand times smaller than a grain of sand. So they're very, very, you know, wide ranging. Size does matter. And that's why I'm bringing this up. Size does matter.

Host 2 (27:07)

This is going to be a great clip. Right, you go. Size matters.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (27:10)

The bigger the plastics, the better. The better. Actually, some sizes matter. So the Study did look at microplastics that were shed in the beverage from plastic bottles or glass bottles. And as you said, shockingly, the glass bottles had more particles of microplastics than the plastic bottles. However, the size of the microplastics, because these microplastics were coming from the lid, as you mentioned, they're coming from the paint on the lid. They were larger in size. Why is that important? Because the larger microplastics less readily are absorbed in our gut than the smaller ones are. So you're much better off still drinking more quantity of larger microplastics than smaller quantity of the smaller ones. Because the smaller ones are very, very problematic. Those are the ones that are getting into our gut and getting absorbed into our bloodstream. Once they're in our bloodstream, they're accumulating in organs, and then we can talk about the damage they're doing there.

Host 2 (28:10)

I sort of feel like we've kind of got a deal either way. Like, why are we drinking all this stuff in the first place?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (28:16)

I mean, I think the companies that are making these glass, you know, whether it's a beer bottle or my mountain valley, you know, spring water that I like, because it's in a glass bottle, they can actually take action and do something about the paint that's getting into the water, right? Like, it's easy to, like, rinse off, blow air, like, get this. Get. Get the stuff or don't use the paint. Like, why do we need the paint? Like, I don't need to paint on the lid. I don't care. Like, you know, put it on the glass part, right? Not on the lid. So I do think that there can be action that's taken by the companies themselves. But even at home, like, if you get open your glass bottle of water, you can rinse the lid off, right, Too, like, so it's not continually shedding. But yeah, I'm still drinking the glass. Bottled water versus the plastic.

Guest or Co-host (29:04)

You know, as you talk, I'm thinking more and more. So when I used to teach, I saw year upon year, more and more kids get diagnosed with adhd, more and more kids get diagnosed with autism. And I was looking at these kids and going, are we just over diagnosing? Is there something literally in the water? Is there a connection between conditions like adhd, autism, and also other conditions as well and these microplastics?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (29:32)

Yes, there is. And yes, it is something in the water. It's called microplastics and the chemicals associated with them. Obviously, there is increased awareness and people are aware More. And I do think it's over diagnosis. I mean, like, kids are being diagnosed with adhd, boys are being diagnosed with adhd, and really they're just boys. Right? I mean, they're just boys. So that's. Aside from that issue, there are studies that have now linked again, back to the bisphenol A BPA and bps. They've linked that to autism and adhd. So there have been studies with pregnant women that have the highest levels of BPA in their urine. They're six times more likely to have a child diagnosed with autism by the age of 11.

Guest or Co-host (30:21)

Wow.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (30:21)

Than women with the lowest levels of BPA. This is. I'm citing this one study because the statistic is shocking. Six times more likely. That's a very shocking number. But I just want to sort of emphasize that there's not just one study showing this correlation. This is just the big statistic number correlation. There's multiple studies showing this correlation between higher levels of BPA and, and increase autism risk. There's also animal evidence. So if you give pregnant female mice bpa, if you make them exposed to the bpa, they also are more likely to have pups that are, you know, as much as you can, you know, correlate this autistic, like, behavior in these pups. That's what you're seeing in these pups. Right. And again, this, this comes down to the disruption of hormones. And it's particularly during a very, very important time during development, brain development. And so I mentioned, you know, the aromatase enzyme. A lot of men are probably like, oh, aromatase. Well, that's what causes my testosterone to be converted into estrogen. Right? You do want some amount of estrogen. I mean, biology is the way it is for a reason. Right. And so you don't want to be disrupting this delicate balance between hormones. Things are supposed to be. You're supposed to have high levels of estrogen at certain points and periods of development. And it's actually, we were talking about this earlier. It's counterintuitive because BPA is inhibiting that aromatase enzyme. That aromatase enzyme is important for increasing estrogen, particularly during very specific moments of brain development. And what happens is that estrogen is very important for actually masculinizing the male brain. It's counterintuitive, but it's pretty, pretty well known that estrogen plays a role in actually masculinizing the male brain. And so when you're not getting those estrogen surges during brain development, what happens is the connectivity of the Brain, the wiring of the brain, the structure of the brain isn't quite right. And so that's playing a role in. At least that's what's thought to partly play a role in the increase of autism risk in women that are having these high exposures to bpa. And then again, like I said, it's something that's been shown in, replicated in animal studies, which is nice. Again, going to that totality of evidence when you're like, okay, I'm looking at the epidemiological observational data with the correlation that doesn't equal causation. But now I have a mechanism here. I know that the mice are also better exposed to it. We see the same thing, and then we look at the genetic data. And if you look at genetic data in boys that have dysfunctional aromatase enzymes, guess what? They're much more likely to be diagnosed with autism, especially if they also have an environmental insult. So there's this gene environment interaction when you're already sort of vulnerable, and then you add in that insult and you just, you know, get that plastic chemical. So any sort of aromatase function that they, that they were having as low as it was now is like worse. Right. And so that's like that double whammy sort of effect that's also known to be. To play a role in autism as well. And then there's some interesting data on actually children with autism. This is really interesting. They have some sort of dysfunctional mechanism in excreting BPA. So children with autism oftentimes have like, 15 times higher level of BPA than non autistic children. And it has to do with like, the excretion pathway I was talking about. And it's really, really interesting because this is all connected that sulforaphane supplement that I was telling you about. So this is extracted from broccoli sprouts, the richest source of that compound. Right. That sulforaphane compound has been now used in two different clinical studies, placebo controlled trials, one with children with autism spectrum disorder and one with adolescents with autism spectrum disorder. And they were given this sulforaphane compound or a placebo. And the children that got the sulforaphane compound, it improved the whole battery of tests that they do for the autism array of tests that they do to look at improvements and symptoms. And so it was in two studies that it was shown to improve. And again, I mentioned that sulforaphane helps excrete bpa. Kind of interesting that the autistics are having such high levels of bpa. And BPA also is just disrupting the hormones, right? Disrupting the hormones, causing oxidative stress and stuff. So that I thought that was a very interesting connection between sort of all these pieces of the puzzle that we're talking about, like the plastic chemicals, the bpa, the hormone disruption, and then the autism. And by the way, ADHD is another one that's associated with BPA levels as well. So it's all linked. And you know, there's a lot of underlying, I would say there's a lot of common denominators between ADHD and autism spectrum disorder. I'm like, there's so many different commonalities between the two. I mean, that's why it's a spectrum. Right. You know, and I really, truly believe that first of all, that there's over diagnosis, particularly with adhd. I think that's, that's, you can't ignore it. I mean, we were talking about studies that I, you know, read a few years ago where boys that were born in July and August, you know, these are the youngest in the class, are three to four times more likely to be diagnosed with adhd. There's nothing about being born in July or August that makes you have adhd. You're just the younger boy. And so you're moving around more. You're, you know, the teachers are comparing you to the girls or to the older kids that are a little more school ready. Right.

Host 2 (35:51)

That's crazy to me. Cause, you know, we talked about this. I have a three year old and I take him to football, soccer, you'd call it every weekend. And if whenever there's an older child there who's been brought by a sib with a sibling or something like that, you go, the level of distractibility in these two groups of humans is so vastly different.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (36:10)

Yeah.

Host 2 (36:11)

And boys and girls are so vastly different. This has become the controversial thing to say, but they are.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (36:16)

Oh yeah.

Host 2 (36:17)

Very different. To compare them on things like distractibility, ability to concentrate and then go, well, one has a. There's not to say there isn't. ADHD is just, it seems like if you start telling these myths about how we're all the same and ignoring certain realities, you're gonna end up in a bad place in that way.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (36:36)

Right? No, I mean, obviously there is such a thing as adhd, but the fact of the matter is that the kids are not just meant to sit still for so long, especially when they're younger. And it does make it easier on the teacher to have kids that just sit still and pay attention. So to some degree, and I don't want to blame teachers because they're doing amazing jobs, but to some degree, maybe they're not even aware of it. You know, maybe they're not even aware of the fact that they're comparing them and there's all sorts of things going on behind the picture. But you know, back to the environmental chemicals.

Host 2 (37:12)

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Dr. Rhonda Patrick (39:58)

To the environmental chemicals and to your question, you know, they are definitely playing a role where we have the data to back that up. We have the mechanism, you know, we have animal evidence, just all the things pointing to it. And you know, I don't think it's the only thing playing a role in autism and adhd. I think the reality is playing a role, I think other, other environmental, you.

Host 2 (40:19)

Know, because there's genetics, right? Genetics is a massive factor.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (40:22)

There's definitely genetics. And I think the genetics is like the, is like the template. Like, it like sets you up for the environmental insults that we're all exposed to now that make those individuals more vulnerable. And that's what we've seen with this aromatase enzyme data. Whereas, like, the boys that have the defects in this aromatase are much more vulnerable to the environmental insults. And so I think that, you know, the genetics you can't ignore, but it's really an interaction between the genetics and the environment. And if you can, there's some degree that you don't have control over your genes, right? I mean, you know, obviously there's futurism stuff where you're gonna, you know, be mating with the people and you're gonna be looking at your genes and doing all that. But, like, that's not where we're at right now, right? There's only so much control you have over your genes. What you do have control over is what you put in your body, what you're exposed to. I mean, to some degree, right? Like we were talking about, I mean, like, you know, you don't even realize that your to go coffee cup is like a BPA factory. I mean, every time you. I can't even think about how many like hot teas. And by the way, we got to talk about tea. But like, you know, the hot coffees.

Host 2 (41:32)

And stuff that is sacrilegious on a British show.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (41:36)

I.

Host 2 (41:36)

We're going to talk about tea. You're going to ruin tea.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (41:39)

I'm going to ruin tea. But only tea bags. Tea and tea bags.

Host 2 (41:42)

Oh, my wife is so onto this. Go on.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (41:44)

Yes, yes, because there have been studies now showing that the tea bags themselves, particularly the ones that are like the pyramid shaped ones, like the bougie teas, billions of microplastics. And remember, remember the microplastics have these chemicals associated with them. Billions like per, like being released into your cup of tea. Even the ones made of cellulose are releasing microplastics. So you have to use loose leaf tea or I mean you can look for. There's some tea brands that are marketing themselves as plastic free or microplastic free. I don't trust it. I go for loose leaf. And if I can't get loose leaf at a restaurant, I ask them to give me fresh mint and lemon and I just use that as my tea because.

Guest or Co-host (42:27)

So the question is this from a political point of view, the, the evidence that you've outlined seems rock solid. So from a political point of view, autism is at the forefront. We've seen RFK Jr talk about it, we've seen the conversation that has been had around Tylenol and you go, this seems far more rock solid in terms of its evidence than Tylenol does. So why aren't we talking about this?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (42:52)

I don't know. We need to be talking about this. We really do. Yeah, there is evidence of acetaminophen and you know, the, the problem. And I've been looking, by the way, I've been interested in this evidence like for the last 10 years. You can like go back and search X and I've like been tweeting about it like at least eight years ago I was tweeting about acetaminophen linked to ADHD and autism. So I was interested in it before it became a political issue. Just because I've published on autism. I've been very interested in autism for many years, but I think that, you know, with the, with the Tylenol link, and there is a link there by the way, and it certainly seems to be more predominant in males than females, which I think confuses the data a little bit because then you'll see that female fetuses that have been exposed to Tylenol in utero don't seem to be as vulnerable. But again, they're not as vulnerable in general to any of the environmental insults.

Guest or Co-host (43:47)

And also as well, it's much more difficult to pick up autism in girls. Girls are much better at masking. That's another thing.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (43:53)

True, true. That's a very good point. Very good point. But, yeah, when it comes to Tylenol, maternal fever is something that is also very well known to play a role in autism. So women that have a fever are much more likely to have a child with autism spectrum disorder. And so if you think about people that are taking Tylenol, they're also trying to reduce their fever. In fact, there's some interesting data out there that women that have a fever and take Tylenol actually have a lower risk of having a child with autism versus the woman that's taking the Tylenol every day because she has the headache or she has morning sickness. And it's the chronic use of it that I think is the more danger the fever is dangerous. So taking Tylenol for a fever once or twice, actually, there's evidence showing that's beneficial, but it's the chronic use of Tylenol when it comes to the plastic chemicals. I feel like the evidence is so strong. We have the animal evidence, we have the genetic evidence, we have the epidemiological evidence. I don't know why it's not being talked about more. I'm genuinely wanting this to be a discussion. So I'm glad that we're talking about it, because I think it needs to be discussed. I think it needs to be. The thing is that it's also hard to get rid of. It's much easier to tell a woman, hey, don't take Tylenol every day while you're pregnant. BP is in everything. It's so much more pervasive and ubiquitous in our culture, in everything that we're eating and putting in our bodies, in our drinking water, that it's harder to solve that problem.

Guest or Co-host (45:29)

Do you think, and this is maybe the conspiratorial part of me, is it as well, governments going, I don't want to open this can of worms. Cause once we open the can of worms, then big business and my donors are going to get upset, and, you know, profits are gonna go down. I'm gonna be the bad guy, et cetera, et cetera.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (45:47)

No, I mean, I've thought about that. I've thought about that. I'm like, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but, like, I've thought about why isn't this being discussed? And it's only, to me, the only solution that I've come up with is because it is in everything. And so how do you, how do you fix that?

Host 2 (46:05)

It's hard to fix.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (46:06)

It's hard to fix.

Host 2 (46:07)

So that being the case, and you know, we haven't seen the politicians act quickly or effectively lately. So in terms of what we have left as individuals, what are some of the key steps that we should all be taking, in your opinion, to reduce our exposure to this stuff?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (46:22)

Yes, I think there are some very. There are some heavy hitters here that can make a big difference, get you big bang for your buck. And this is also in terms of microplastic exposure. Again, microplastics have their own problems and they have the chemicals that they're carrying with them. But one of the first and foremost things that people should do is get a water filter. The best one you can get is a reverse osmosis water filter. You can get a countertop one that filters out 99% of microplastics. And it's filtering out bisphenol A, bisphenol S, the phthalates, the forever chemicals, pfas. It's filtering out all those chemicals that are endocrine disruptors, that are disrupting hormones that are associated with neurodevelopmental disorders like autism spectrum disorder, like adhd. So a countertop one is an easy solution for people. You can get a whole house one as well. The caveat there is reverse osmosis does filter out everything, including trace elements and minerals that we actually want in our water. And so you can add those back with, you know, a mineral supplement, or you can get these little mineral drops to add back to your water that have these trace elements, you know, like manganese and selenium and these things that, like, you know, you want in your water. And so that is also important to consider. Number one thing that you could do easiest, easiest solution right there. You're going to be doing so much by doing that. The second thing I would say is avoid heating any kind of plastic, okay? Whether it's like your Tupperware, like, get rid of any spatulas, all those plastic. Anything that's plastic that's going to touch heat. Don't do that. And I want to get to the coffee cups because that's the one you don't think about because it doesn't look like plastic. It's very tricky because they're lined with plastic. You have to like. I really want these companies, like Starbucks and everyone to like, start lining their cups with polylactic acid. You know, why not? You can, you can do it. I know Blue bottle coffee does it. It's the Only one that I know that does. But you can get sugar cane and line them. But, like, until then, bring your own mug or, I don't know, stop drinking to go coffee. Because you're talking 55 fold more BPA into your beverage than if you were drinking just water from a plastic bottle. 55 fold. The other thing is shift from drinking out of plastic water bottles as much as you can, and certainly don't let them sit out in the sun. Don't let them sit in your car because that's. That's, again, accelerating the breakdown of the plastic and the chemicals are going into your.

Guest or Co-host (48:59)

But you say that, Rhonda. And then I think, well, look at a supply chain and a supply chain. These are not always gonna be perfectly chilled or at room temperature. They're gonna be thrown in a corner somewhere. They're gonna get crushed. They're gonna get heated up. They're gonna become warm. They're gonna become cool and then warm again. Do you know what I mean?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (49:15)

Yes. Yes. When they're on the truck, they're in the summer, they're being transported to where they're in the warehouse. They're sitting there. Yeah. The reality is don't drink out of the bottle. Like, just get rid of the plastic bottles. Get rid of them.

Host 2 (49:29)

One thing we haven't talked about is tap water.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (49:32)

Yes.

Host 2 (49:32)

Because the filter covers that. Right. And what about hormones? Is there any truth to this idea that since the invention of the pill, there's now more female hormones in the water supply? Is that. Have I just got that out of my ass? Or is that.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (49:47)

I mean, I. You know, there's. I think there's some places maybe where you live where they're attacking.

Host 2 (49:54)

You're giving me that this is BS face. You can just say this is bs.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (49:57)

I think the bigger problem is the BPA that's disrupting our hormones. If you want to focus, if you want to be angry at something, you know, that's what you should be angry about, because that's actually what's disrupting our hormones, and it's really what's ubiquitous.

Host 2 (50:11)

So water filter, avoid coffee cups, avoid heating plastic, avoid plastic bottles.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (50:16)

Yeah, that's the major thing for the bpa. Now, microplastics, we're breathing them in, but like that.

Host 2 (50:24)

Okay.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (50:26)

Anything else for the bpa for everything.

Host 2 (50:30)

To do with plastics? Microplastics.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (50:31)

Yeah, I mean, yes, I would say that if we're talking about plastics, on the whole, microplastics as well. So the major source is ingestion, and I mentioned size Matters. Well, it turns out fiber, dietary fiber also can help you excrete microplastics. So both, like the. You've heard of, like, prebiotics and fermentable fiber, soluble fiber, it creates, like, a viscous gel in your gut, and that encapsulates plastic particles and moves them out through your feces so you poop them out. So fiber is actually good for that reason. The other thing with the microplastics, so everything that I mentioned, reverse osmosis, water filter, not drinking out of plastic bottles, not heating them. All that also applies to microplastics because you're ingesting them. You're also ingesting microplastics in your food. So you want to avoid, like, oceans are polluted with them. So you want to avoid eating, like, fish that have their intact gut and intestines, like shellfish, eating, like, shrimp or things like that, because the microplastics are accumulated in the intestines of the.

Host 2 (51:30)

I'm regretting doing this episode now. I love prawns.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (51:34)

Sorry, carry on. Yeah, prawns, exactly.

Host 2 (51:37)

Shrimp, yeah, as you call them.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (51:39)

But the other major source of microplastics is actually from the air we breathe. And so we are breathing in microplastics constantly. And that's also because we live in a plastic world. So, you know, tires, if you're in a urban place, tires are made of rubber, but also a lot of plastic polymers. So the friction of, like, the tire is, like, bringing it into the air. We have our clothes that are nice, cool, fancy clothes that we wear. Microplastics are all in the clothes. So we wash them, and they come out. They get in the ocean, but also the dryer, they come out into our environment. So we're breathing these in our shoes. I mean, just everywhere, okay. It's in the air. And so when we breathe in, the microplastics, they get into our lungs, which plays a role in respiratory disease. But also, this is very disturbing, essentially. So have you guys heard about this study? This was done in Sao Paulo, Brazil, where they looked at a variety of different organs and microplastics in those organs. And it was found that microplastics accumulated in the brain 10 to 20 times more than other organs. They're essentially everywhere. They're in 100% of semen samples that have been sampled, like, measured. They're in testicles, they're everywhere. Placenta. But 10 to 20 times more in the brain, which is astounding, considering we have something called the blood brain barrier that's supposed to not let stuff get into the brain like microplastics, Right. And so part of that is that the nanoplastics, the size matters. So, like the small ones are getting in. But the other part is that when we are breathing in microplastics, so we have something in our olfactory, in our nose called olfactory neurons. And those neurons have fibers that extend into our brain. And so essentially you breathe in the microplastics and they can get into the brain through the olfactory fibers and then get transported to other parts of the brain. A lot of scientists have sort of, I would say they're using this method to deliver drugs to get past the blood brain barrier, because it's a way to get past it. So essentially you're breathing in microplastics and those are getting to the brain. There's studies now showing that people with Alzheimer's disease, post mortem, if you look at their brain, they have 10 times more microplastics than postmortem brain in people without Alzheimer's. So this playing a role in Alzheimer's disease as well. So you want to air filter. This is what I'm getting to, an air filter. You want to like, you know, any kind of HEPA filter, it can be, you know, it doesn't have to be the fancy, like really, like medical grade ones. It can be any kind of HEPA filter. They really do work. I have a Honey Honeywell HEPA filter in all the rooms in my bedroom. I also have an IQ air monitor that measures the particulate matter. And you can see the data. If you turn off the filter, the particulate matter goes up and it's very, very obvious. Like if I, if I'm traveling, I unplug everything. I don't, like, leave the filters running and you look at the iq, it's like, oh, it goes up. So an air filter is another thing that I would say is a simple solution with, in terms of getting rid of the microplastics that we didn't cover as well.

Guest or Co-host (54:38)

Rhonda. And there's been one thing that I read about that was very interesting, positively racist, which is black plastic, which is the worst type of plastic.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (54:47)

It is so black plastic. So there's another type of chemical called brominated chemicals. Brominated chemicals are a type of chemical that's flame retardant. So flame retardants are often put in electronics because electronics, we don't want them starting fires. Right. And so black plastic is often made from recycled electronics, hence the black color. And so these recycled electronics have the brominated chemicals in them. And there was a very famous study that was published in like 2018, I think it was like the University of Plymouth or something that published a study, showed they looked at a variety of black plastic articles, so everything from black spatulas to spoons to baby toys, and found that they had 30 to 40 times higher levels of these brominated chemicals, which by the way are known carcinogens, than is considered safe. And so black plastic is something you definitely want to avoid. I mean, have you ever ordered like a rotisserie chicken and it's like the hot, it's, the chicken's still hot and the bottom of the thing is like black. And remember I told you heat is accelerating the leaching of everything into your food. Whether it's a brominated chemical or a BPA or microplastic, it's all coming in and it's accelerating the process in real time. It's almost like getting something that was like over the course of 10 years, this is leached into your. And it's just like minutes. Right, because that's what the heat does, it accelerates that oxidation process. So you want to avoid the black chemical, sorry, the black plastic as well, the black straws, like everything, the black, the black stuff, it's not good, especially heating it. So, so get rid of all the black spatulas because that's like the worst culprit is the heat plus the plastic. So that's, that's also something that's bad and that's associated with cancer, the brominated chemicals as well.

Guest or Co-host (56:35)

And, but it's also the pans as well, because. Let's talk about pans. Because I never, like when I was a kid, like there was a pan had, we never had much money. Like if there was a pan with a few scratches on it, who cares?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (56:46)

I know, I know. Teflon. Yeah. So the Teflon that, that's actually has forever chemicals in it. So we didn't talk about forever chemicals. They're called pfas. These, they're called forever chemicals because they last in our environment for like years. So they're in our bodies. I told you, BPA's Half Life is about two to three hours. It's excreted through your urine. Forever chemicals. The PFAS are in your body for like four to five years. So really a long time. These chemicals are added things to make them water repellent, stick, non stick, oil resistant, stain resistant, all those things. Right? And so you have these pans that are non stick and you're heating them. I can't. I'm like, I probably have forever chemicals in me from like, you know, when I was a kid, right. Like, I remember my mom bought all that nonstick pan, you know, we were cooking with that. And so that's the worst thing that you can do is heat that nonstick pan because you're getting those pfas, forever chemicals in you and those are also disrupting hormones. Those are also associated with cancer as well. So. Yeah, also in our clothing, right? So anything that's if like water repellent, clothing, I mean that stuff is all forever chemical that you're getting and getting into your skin and absorbing. The worst is eating it though. The worst is eating it. And the forever chemicals are now, unfortunately they're attracted to, they're lipophilic, so they're attracted to fat and they're found in high fat foods. So it's been shown now that our water sources are contaminated with phthalates, they're contaminated with forever chemicals. And so you have this sludge, this like, you know, this fertilizer that's used in, you know, farming and stuff. Even the organic farms are now contaminated with forever chemicals and phthalates, which is in the sludge which have all these chemicals. And so the cows are eating it. And the way that the cows get rid of forever chemicals, not like us, we don't excrete it through our milk, but they get rid of it through their milk, their dairy. And so I don't know if you've, have you guys seen these studies that have been done where they've gone around. I've looked at milk, like organic grass fed, the thing that you think's the best, tons of forever chemicals in it because the cows are contaminated and they're excreting it through their milk. So dairy milk, high fat butter, cheese, this all has the phthalates and the forever chemicals because they're lipophilic and they're attracted to fat. And so now even our fat foods are like sources for those chemicals. This is probably why no one wants to address the issue because it's like what do you. It's everywhere. It's like you have to do what you can. I call it like, it's like imperfect avoidance because like, like you have to eat, you have to live, right? But like do what you can to like reduce your exposure. Whether it's, you know, the reverse osmosis filter, you know, getting the air filter, doing not, not cooking with the Teflon pans and not heating the plastic and not drinking the. To go. All those things. Do all those things. Like, because you're going to be exposed to it. Like you order takeout. You know those. Like if you go to a bakery and it's like the tissue paper that's all lined with forever chemicals, it's to prevent the.

Host 2 (59:49)

The grease or if you get fo, they give you a black plastic bowl.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (59:52)

Oh, the fuzz. The worst. I. I can't tell you, like, during my 20s, like, I love pho and I like, take out pho and like the plastic, you know, container. I mean, I know, like, it's like.

Guest or Co-host (60:03)

And receipts.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (60:04)

Oh, and receipts. Yes. Receipts are terrible. I have this funny story.

Guest or Co-host (60:09)

Yeah?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (60:09)

Oh, yes.

Host 2 (60:10)

Well, like paper or something.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (60:11)

Yes, yes, yes.

Host 2 (60:12)

What's wrong with receipts?

Guest or Co-host (60:13)

Trapping, mate.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (60:13)

Oh, my gosh. You haven't heard about this?

Host 2 (60:15)

No.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (60:15)

So. So receipts are, you know, the printing that's on the receipt is done with thermal paper. And essentially, the way that you're able to get the. The ink. It's not ink. It's like the printing on it is. It's coated with bpa. Coated with it. Bisphenol A, that stuff that we're talking about. Now, the worst insult is ingesting it. But unfortunately, if you have any kind of cream on your fingers or like sanitizer everyone uses now ever since COVID like this hand sanitizer everyone uses that causes the BPA from the receipts to go into your circulation a hundredfold. A hundredfold. So you don't want. You don't want to touch receipts. And if you're someone that's working in, like, your, you know, with a cash register or anything like that, you have to use nitrile gloves. Like, you don't want to be touching that every day. Latex gloves don't do it. It has to be nitrile. And latex doesn't filter out the bpa. But it's funny. I was in the San Diego airport and this guy was there, and I just couldn't help myself because he was like. I saw him, like the person in front giving him receipts. And I was like, he's giving all these people receipts. And finally he came to me and I come up with my yeti glass. And I was like, hey, can you put my latte in my yeti? You know? And he's like, oh, yeah, because I didn't want the to go cup. And I was like, hey, by the way, you know, you shouldn't be handling those receipts because they're coated with bpa. I'm like, do you know what BPA is? And he goes, oh, yeah, something like endocrine. I was like, yes, it disrupts your hormone testosterone. And it's funny story, I was in the airport, I was going on Chris Williamson's podcast and I talked all about some of this stuff. And then I went, you know, I don't know. A month later I was back at the same coffee place and he was there and everyone working there. I told him to wear nitrile gloves. Everyone working there was wearing nitrile gloves.

Host 2 (61:57)

Nice.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (61:57)

I know, it was awesome. But. So that's a kind of a funny story. Yeah, but receipts are terrible because they have the BPA and like, I freak out if like my son somehow will like get the receipt, get a hold of receipt, you know, because it's disrupting the hormones.

Host 2 (62:10)

And you know what this conversation reminds me of? Have you seen that series the Good Place? No, no. Long story, very short. But basically it's about people who end up either going to hell or to heaven, depending on the total sum of their actions that they've taken throughout the course of their life. Do they do good things or they do bad things? And what they find is, as society gets technologically more sophisticated, everyone goes to hell. Because every decision now is so complicated and has so many trade offs. Because so if you eat a tomato, some poor guy somewhere has had to grow that in some terrible circumstances. And it sort of feels like this with everything that we're consuming now where like you're having to make choices between these two terrible options. Like either you drink out of a plastic bottle, that's really bad for you, Drink out of a glass bottle and that's just bad for you. You know, it's just so complex now. So I guess you having given us some like big hitters is where people should start really, isn't it?

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (63:03)

I think the big hitters is really, like I said, it's. It's the water filter. If you can, if you can just get water from your faucet and have a reverse osmosis filter on that, that's the best thing that you can do. Travel around with your own, you know, to go yeti or whatever your favorite brand is, a hydro flask or something and drink out of that water, that's one of the big things. And then just avoid the heating. Those two things will make such a big difference in terms of your exposure. Because a lot of it is coming from our water and heating. The plastic stuff that we're consuming, whether it's the to go coffee cups or to go food items as well. I guess it's an argument to be made to cook at home too. I mean, it really is because it's all in the restaurant industry. I mean, they're using all these, you know, containers and who knows what they're. Are they using Teflon nonstick? Probably. It's easier to cook with. I mean, much easier to cook scrambled eggs on a Teflon pan than like cast iron or something. Right. So you just never know what you're getting when you're eating out as well. But I think at the end of the day, you know, obviously I don't think. I think there are other things that are very important to focus on with respect to health, but I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed because I do think it's affecting. It's affecting hormone levels, but it's affecting fertility and it's affecting neurodevelopment. And I think that is so important. You know, I think it's so important because we have all these insults and we have to try to, like, at least do something as much as we can, you know, to help decrease some of that insult. That's. That's really kind of affecting, like you said, our ability to procreate. I mean, that's crazy.

Host 2 (64:47)

It's kind of important.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (64:47)

50% reduction, you know, in sperm, in sperm production over the last few decades. I mean, that's a lot, so.

Host 2 (64:57)

Well, thank you for ruining everything that we used to love.

Guest or Co-host (65:00)

Including tea.

Host 2 (65:00)

Including tea. I mean, that really was a blog as women and gum.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (65:06)

Yeah. Gum base is made of plastic polymers. It wasn't before World War II, but after World War II. Gum Base is plastic polymer. So you have to look for microplastic free gum.

Guest or Co-host (65:16)

That's another thing crossed off the list.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (65:17)

I know, but. And of course, the plastic free gram taste, it's like, it's. It's made of like plant SAP and stuff, and so the texture is awful.

Host 2 (65:25)

But yeah, there we go. Well, before we head on over to our substack where we ask you questions from our audience. Thank you so much for being here. The last question we always end on is what's the one thing we're not talking about, other than plastics, that we should be.

Dr. Rhonda Patrick (65:37)

I think. I think a really important thing that we're not talking about that we should be is omega 3, the omega 3 fatty acids found in fish and seafood. They are hugely important for brain health and for overall health. In fact, there are studies showing that, you know, if you can supplement with 2 grams, about 1.5 to 2 grams a day. People that have that high level of omega 3 that you can achieve with that 1.5 to 2 grams a day have a five year increased life expectancy, a 90% reduced chance of having sudden cardiac death. I mean, it's the easiest thing that you can do is take a pill. And it really has a huge effect on depression, mental health. All these things are affected by Omega 3 neurodevelopment. Very important. And it's. Again, why do I think we should be talking about it? Because it's a simple solution. People like to take pills, and it's the one pill that really is having a big impact on not only your health, your overall health, your life expectancy, but your mental health as well. So I think that's something people should be talking about, and it's one of my favorite things to talk about.

Host 2 (66:42)

Awesome. All right, head on over to Substack, where we ask Rhonda your questions.

Guest or Co-host (66:47)

Why is it that we focus so much on the adverse effects of smoking, but we don't talk about, you know, sugar, excess carbohydrates, alcohol?