The Ancient History of Israel and the Holy Land - Historian Barry Strauss

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Ancient History of Israel and the Holy Land"

TRIGGERnometry | Guest: Barry Strauss | Date: March 11, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Konstantin Kisin and Francis Foster welcome back acclaimed historian Barry Strauss to discuss the ancient history of Israel and the Holy Land, illuminating its relevance to current events. The conversation centers on Strauss's latest book, "Jews versus Rome," exploring the historical presence of Jews in the land, the rise and fall of ancient Judea, the complex interplay of religion, politics, and empire, and the lessons these histories offer for understanding today's ongoing conflicts in the region.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Earliest Jewish Presence and Historical Record

• Archaeological Evidence
  • The earliest evidence of Israel appears around 1210 BCE on an Egyptian stele mentioning a defeat of “Israel” ([03:39], Strauss).
  • References to Israel and potentially the House of David from the 9th century BCE in inscriptions from Moab, Assyria, and archaeological findings.
  • “From a secular point of view, we have this early evidence of Israel at the end of the Bronze Age.” ([04:16], Strauss)

2. Geographic Scope of Ancient Israel

• The territory of ancient Israel at the time of King Herod covers most of central/northern modern Israel, the West Bank, part of Syria, Lebanon, and western Jordan, but excludes the Negev ([06:14], Strauss).

3. Foreign Conquests and Jewish Autonomy

• Babylonian Conquest and Return
  • Babylonian conquest leads to exile; the Persian king Cyrus allows Jews to return and rebuild the Temple ([06:51], Strauss).
• Greek Rule and Maccabean Revolt
  • Seleucids and Ptolemies (Greek dynasties) take turns ruling the region until the Maccabean revolt (167 BCE) establishes Jewish autonomy ([06:55–09:58], Strauss).
• “This is really big and important because it’s the first independent Jewish state in centuries.” ([08:34], Strauss)

4. Roman Domination and Herod’s Rise

• Civil War Invites Roman Intervention
  • Internal disputes prompt Judean elites to request Roman arbitration, leading to Roman control ([09:58], Strauss).
• Herod the Great: Politics and Paradox
  • Herod, aided by Rome and half Idumean (and half Arab, maternally), ultimately becomes King of Judea—a figure “reviled by both Christians and Jews but a spectacular builder and survivor” ([13:00–13:21], Strauss).
  • “One of the things that Christians and Jews agree about is they both hate Herod.” ([13:21], Strauss)

5. The Second Temple: Its Significance

• The Temple in Jerusalem served as “the house where God comes down to earth… as important as the Hajj for a Muslim” ([17:21], Strauss). Pilgrimage and offering sacrifices were central to Jewish religious life.

6. Herod’s Rule: Prosperity and Tyranny

• Herod modernizes Jerusalem, builds both Jewish and pagan sites, and brings prosperity, but is hated for his brutality, harsh rule, and perceived collaboration with the Romans ([20:56–24:10], Strauss).
• “If you never saw Herod’s Temple, you never saw a beautiful building.” – Talmud, quoted at [20:56]
• Herod’s suspicious and violent treatment of family members, religious leaders, and minority groups contributed to his infamy ([22:05–24:23], Strauss).

7. Ethnic Complexity and Communal Division

• Judea was home not just to Jews, but Greek speakers, Samaritans, Canaanites, Arabs, and Idumeans—often antagonistic to Jewish rule ([24:23–26:18], Strauss).

8. Transition from Herod’s Rule to Roman Province

• Herod’s death leads to division of his kingdom among sons; their ineffectiveness results in Judea becoming a Roman province around 6 CE ([26:54–28:31], Strauss).
• “His fear of his own sons is the undoing of his dynasty…” ([26:54], Strauss)

9. Society and Leadership Structures

• Unlike more militaristic societies, Jewish elites were primarily religious (priests), and society had a priestly orientation ([28:48], Host 1 and Strauss).

10. Apocalyptic Movements and Jesus’ Era

• Widespread apocalypticism and messianic expectations shaped Jewish society, with Jesus emerging around 4 BCE–30 CE amid various claimants and sects ([30:20–35:42], Strauss).
• Jesus distinguishes himself as a spiritual, not armed, revolutionary ([31:07], Strauss).

11. Rebellion and Diaspora Dynamics

• Jewish rebellion is fueled by long-term frustration under foreign rule, ongoing revolutionary fervor, apocalyptic hopes, and diaspora connections—especially ties to Parthia, Rome’s rival ([36:10–38:19], Strauss).

12. Jewish-Roman War and Destruction of Jerusalem

• The revolt starting in 66 CE is catalyzed by harsh Roman governors and internal zealotry ([44:28], Strauss).
• The siege and fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE result in the destruction of the Temple, famine, civil strife, and mass death or enslavement ([53:48–69:55], Strauss).
• Infighting among rebels exacerbates the tragedy: “They burn each other food supply… From the military point of view this is insane.” ([61:39–62:10], Strauss)

13. Aftermath: Diaspora, Revolts, and Roman Policy

• The Romans impose a humiliating tax on all Jews: the fiscus Judaicus, to be paid not to their God but to Jupiter ([71:03–72:32], Strauss).
• Further revolts, notably in Cyrenaica and the Bar Kokhba revolt (130s CE), are partly tied to ongoing Parthian involvement ([73:09–76:11], Strauss).

14. Historical Parallels to Modern Conflict

• The land remains under successive foreign rule until the 20th century ([76:34], Strauss).
• Strauss emphasizes Jewish indigeneity, the persistence of internal division, and geopolitical realities as perennial themes ([77:29–80:03]).
  • “The Jews are indigenous to Judea… It’s not as if the Zionists threw a dart at the map and decided, we’re going there.” ([77:29], Strauss)
  • “Disunity is a problem in Israel today, but it's an ancient problem as well.” ([80:03], Strauss)
• Eternal vigilance and balancing religious zeal with pragmatism are crucial lessons: “If you want to maintain Israel, the price of that is eternal vigilance.” ([81:19], Host 1 / [81:26], Strauss)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Herod and Survival:
  “He’s a super smart politician and… a total survivor.” ([13:06], Strauss)

• On Religious and Civic Significance of the Temple:
  “For a Jew in the ancient world, a pilgrimage to the Temple is as important as a pilgrimage as the Hajj is today for a Muslim.” ([17:21], Strauss)

• On Internal Strife:
  “There are three groups, Simon’s faction, John’s faction, the Zealots—which ends in a bloodbath in Jerusalem, these people killing each other. Even worse, they burn each other's food supply…” ([60:33–61:39], Strauss)

• On Infighting’s Consequence:
  “Jerusalem and the Temple were not destroyed because of the Romans, they were destroyed because of the Jews. And what they call senseless hatred.” ([65:50], Strauss quoting the Talmud)

• On Ancient and Modern Parallels:
  “Eternal vigilance… If you go to Israel today, you will see it’s a society in which military life is infinitely more important than in your standard Western democracy.” ([81:26], Strauss)

• On the Lesson of Disunity:
  “Disunity is a problem in Israel today, but it's an ancient problem as well.” ([80:03], Strauss)

---

Important Timestamps

• Introduction of Ancient Jewish presence: [03:39]
• Outline of geographic extent: [06:14]
• Babylonian & Persian periods: [06:55]
• Herod’s rise and personality: [13:00–14:00]
• Significance and architecture of the Temple: [17:21–19:17]
• Herod’s contradictions and critiques: [22:04–24:23]
• Transition to Roman province: [26:54–28:31]
• Apocalyptic and messianic context (Jesus): [30:20–35:42]
• Jewish-Roman wars and Jerusalem’s fall: [53:48–69:55]
• Aftermath: Fiscus Judaicus and subsequent revolts: [71:03–76:11]
• Modern analogies; Jewish indigeneity/relevance: [77:29–81:07]

---

Recurring Themes & Takeaways

• Indigeneity & Continuity: Jews have a continuous, ancient connection to the land. Their presence, struggles, and aspirations are not recent inventions but rooted in antiquity.
• Disunity as a Perennial Problem: Internal factionalism and "senseless hatred" have led to catastrophic losses, a warning echoing today.
• The Role and Limits of Religion: Religious faith and zeal can be both unifying and dangerously divisive.
• Geopolitical Realities: The region's history is shaped by its location bridging empires, necessitating vigilance and pragmatic foreign relations.

---

Conclusion

Barry Strauss masterfully maps the ancient struggles, glories, and tragedies of Judea, connecting them both to the sweep of Roman history and to perennial questions about identity, power, and survival in the Holy Land. The hosts and the guest emphasize that knowledge of this complex past is vital for understanding the present and future of Israel and its neighbors.

---

For more, including audience Q&A and deeper dives into specific historical episodes, listen to the full episode or check out Barry Strauss’s works, especially "Jews versus Rome."

Transcript

[Host 1]

Before we start a very quick recommendation, we know our audience and every so often something comes along that we think you'll genuinely want to see. October 8th is a documentary you can watch today on Amazon Prime, Apple TV or YouTube Premium. It looks at the explosion of anti Semitism on college campuses and across social media in the aftermath of the October 7 attacks and examines how extremist networks and foreign actors have shaped narratives inside American institutions and public discourse. Featuring interviews with prominent voices from politics, media, and cult culture, it asks serious questions about how we got here and what it means for the future. If you care about what's happening in our culture right now, this film is worth your time. Head to october 8th film.com to find out more.

[Barry Strauss]

Jackson Hewitt handles your taxes and your stress. Inhale our no surprise price of 149 or less. Exhale. Paying more for complicated taxes? You won't inhale you new tax law knowledge. Exhale. Missing out on your biggest refund? Certainly not. Don't miss paying 149 or less. Rest easy. Jackson Hewitt's got your taxes guaranteed limited time offer for new clients on federal terms. Participating locations only [e-mail] 149 Judea was a very complicated place. Now Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel, but they're not the only people there. This is the independent state that finds itself in a civil war. They hate each other, and they turn to the Romans, who have just conquered Syria in the year 63 B.C. herod, with the help of the Romans, conquers Jerusalem and is established as king of Judea. When Herod dies, this is the signal for a Jewish rebellion against Rome.

[Host 2]

I imagine once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison for Forgive my French, you're kind of.

[Barry Strauss]

You're kind of. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Is there anything at all from the ancient history of this land that might be worth people knowing in relation to today's ongoing conflict?

[Barry Strauss]

Sure.

[Host 1]

Before we start a very quick recommendation, we know our audience, and every so often something comes along that we think you'll genuinely want to see. October 8th is a documentary you can watch today on Amazon Prime, Apple TV or YouTube Premium. It looks at the explosion of antisemitism on college campuses and across social media in the aftermath of the October 7 attacks and examines how extremist networks and foreign actors have shaped narratives inside American institutions and public discourse. Featuring interviews with prominent voices from politics, media, and culture, it asks serious questions about how we got here and what it means for the future. If you care about what's happening in our culture, Right now, this film is worth your time. Head to october 8th film.com to find out more.

[Host 2]

Paris Trauss. Welcome back.

[Barry Strauss]

Thank you. Great to be here.

[Host 2]

Great to have you back on the show. You're one of our absolute favorite historians.

[Barry Strauss]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Host 2]

Our last episode on the Roman Empire absolutely crushed it, as you know. And I don't know if you noticed, Israel's been in the news a little bit.

[Barry Strauss]

A little bit, yeah.

[Host 2]

And it so just so happens that your latest book is called Jews versus Rome. So we thought the ancient history of what has since become the Holy Land would be an amazing conversation.

[Barry Strauss]

Great.

[Host 2]

Here we are.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So talk to us about that part of the world. And also Jews. When do Jews come into existence? Are they living in that area at the time?

[Barry Strauss]

Talk to us about that. So, you know, the earliest evidence we have of Jews, or rather of Israel, comes from around the year 1210 BCE or BC either one is okay. And it's an Egyptian stele that talks about the defeat of Israel. That's the earliest evidence that we have. So let me just preface this by saying I'm going to talk as a secular historian and nothing that I say should shake anyone's faith or be meant to challenge anyone's faith. But from a secular point of view, lovely.

[Host 2]

Trigger warning.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes, Trigger warnings. Thank you.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Barry Strauss]

I try to remember to say that. But from a secular point of view, we have this early evidence of Israel at the end of the Bronze Age. And then going ahead, jumping ahead a few centuries to the 9th century B.C. we have some additional references to Israel from inscriptions from one from Moab. So what's now Jordan? We have an Assyrian one. They talk about Israel. And on one reading, not all scholars would read it this way. They also talk about the house of David. That's from the 9th century. Then, as we go ahead in time, we have lots of archeological evidence. We have names that refer to names that appear in the Bible. We have letters that come from around the beginning of the sixth century B.C. so the early five hundreds that are clearly referring to Jews. They talk about the God of the Jews, the God who sometimes referred to in English as Jehovah. Y, H, W, H, we don't know how to pronounce it. So they're there. There's lots of evidence of their being there, lots of evidence of their being there in the land of Israel. As we move on in time and as we get to the period that I wrote about, which is the first century BC in the first two centuries CE or AD an absolute abundance of evidence for their, for their presence there and for the presence of Jews not just in ancient Israel but also in the diaspora. So in various parts of the Roman Empire, mostly the eastern Roman Empire. So Egypt, Libya, Cyprus, Syria, Turkey, Greece and then further east in what's now Iraq, ancient Mesopotamia, large Jewish settlements as well there.

[Host 2]

And the land of Israel, is it roughly around where Israel is today?

[Barry Strauss]

It is roughly. So if we're going to look at the map of Israel at the time of King Herod in the first century B.C. it would include all of what is now central and most of northern Israel and the west bank as well Judea and Samaria, but it would also include part of Syria and Lebanon and, and part of western Jordan, it would not include the Negev desert. So it would end around where Beersheva is. So in south central Israel. So roughly, roughly.

[Host 2]

And so the period in which you talk about in the book this land, is it called Judea?

[Barry Strauss]

At this point it's called Judea and

[Host 2]

it's under Roman control.

[Barry Strauss]

It becomes under Roman control. So a couple of important events just add, so really important event is the Maccabean revolt. So in the year 167. So Judea it was. If we go back to the sixth century B.C. so we have the Neo Babylonians conquering Judea, destroying Jerusalem and the Temple and deporting the elite to southern Iraq, the so called to Babylon, the famous Babylonian captivity. And then in the year 539 that empire is conquered by Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Achaemenid Persian empire. And he liberates the Jews and allows them to go back to Judea and reestablish Jerusalem in the temple. Some of them do many of them stay in Babylon where they're living quite well. And so we have these two communities. Judea is a Persian province for about 200 years. Then it's conquered by Alexander the Great and it comes under Greco Macedonian rule. And it goes back and forth between the Seleucids, the dynasty ruling Syria and the Ptolemies, the dynasties ruling Egypt, both Greek speaking dynasties. Then in the year 167 there is a revolt by the family of the Maccabees and they're successful in winning their independence from what is now the decaying Seleucid Syrian empire. And by the year 140 they are autonomous and by around the year 120 they are an independent state. This is really big and important because it's the first independent Jewish state in centuries. There had been a kingdom of Israel and a kingdom of Judah earlier in the Iron Age. But now we've got this re established independent Jewish state. Very important because this, as far as we can tell, this is really the period when they establish the Torah as the law of the land that will affect. That will be in effect for everyone who lives there. And they extend the area that they control. They conquer people who are converted either voluntarily or involuntarily, to Judaism. So Judaism becomes more of a thing, more of an established thing. The territory of Judea becomes larger. This is the independent state that finds itself in a civil war. There are two claimants to the throne in the middle of the first century B.C. what do they do? They hate each other. And they turn to the Romans who have just conquered Syria in the year 63 BC it's Pompey. Pompey the great, Caesar's great rival to be. And they say, choose one of us to be the ruler. Also there's a report that a third group of Jews go to Pompey and say, we hate them both. Please choose a committee of Jews to run the place. Under Roman supervision. He goes for one of the two brothers. And he then invades Judea and is invited into Jerusalem and lays siege to the Temple. It's a siege that lasts several months. And he takes the Temple, enters the Holy of Holies to the horror of the people there. He swears that he didn't take anything with him, no souvenirs, didn't touch any of the gold or silver there. And he punishes Judea by decreasing it in size and demoting the king to what is called a tetrarch, I guess we'd call him a local ruler. And Judea is now under the thumb of Rome, but not for long, because the losing side looks to Iran. So there are a series of ancient Iranian empires. And you can stop me at any point because I can.

[Host 2]

There's no need. You okay? We don't really need us here.

[Barry Strauss]

A series of ancient Iranian empires. Now there's one that has replaced the first one. It's called the Parthian Empire or Parthia. There's still a large Jewish community living in Parthia. There are many connections. Constantly people going back and forth between Parthia and Judea. And so the people who've lost out to the Romans are looking for help from Parthia. They get it about 25 years later. This is after the assassination of Julius Caesar. 44 BC, Roman Empire is in turmoil and a Parthian prince now invades the Roman Empire. He conquers Syria, part of southern Asia Minor and also conquers Judea and puts the representative of the other faction in the dynasty on the throne and now makes Judea a Parthian province, an Iranian province again. And the Romans don't take this lying down. A representative of the Roman faction in Judea now makes his way to Rome and convinces the Romans to make him king. This is the time of the dispute, which becomes a civil war between Mark Antony and Octavian, the future Augustus. The one thing they agree on is they're going to choose this Jew and make him king of Judea, which the Roman Senate does. They give a banquet for him in Rome. It's probably not kosher. And his name, I think you will know his name is Herod. He's a young guy, very ambitious, very talented, both politically and militarily. And he makes his way back to Judea and then devotes himself to conquering it for himself and for Rome. It's a long process. It takes three years. The Romans intervene, they defeat the Parthian prince. Actually, they behead him in a battle and they ship his head around to various places saying, I think the rebellion's over, folks. And finally Herod, with the help of the Romans, conquers Jerusalem and is established as king of Judea in the year 37 BC.

[Host 1]

Now, in the book, you paint a very. You describe Herod wonderfully. He's got many strengths.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Got a few, shall we say, character defects.

[Barry Strauss]

He has a few character defects.

[Host 1]

So let's delve into it because he's a. He's a huge figure in both in history and in religion, right? Yes, particularly the Christian religion. So let's talk.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. One of the things that Christians and Jews agree about is they both hate Herod. And he's reviled in the New Testament, but also in the Talmud. And yet. So Herod's a really interesting guy. He's a super smart politician and he, first of all, he's a total survivor. Early on, he is a client of Mark Antony. He is in Mark Anthony's pocket. If the Romans had pockets, they are like this. But Mark Antony loses the battle of Actium. Luckily for Herod, he's not there because Cleopatra hates him and she won't let him go to Actium. She gives him a task kind of beneath his dignity. While the battle of Actium is fought, but turns out to be great for him, he's not there. And when the victor, Octavian Caesar comes to the near east and he comes to Judea, even before he comes to Judea, when he's on a Greek Island. Herod goes there, hat in hand, so to speak, sackcloth and ashes, throws himself at Octavian's mercy. He's very smart and he says, yeah, I was Mark Antony's best friend, but you know what? I'm a great friend. And now I'll be your best friend. You want somebody that defends Rome's interests in the East, I'm your man. Octavian buys it and now Herod as king wants to indicate that he's the guy who can really help Rome in the East. And Octavian, who becomes the emperor Augustus, he buys it. He thinks this is great and Herod is his man. So Herod shows it in a variety of ways. He's going to rebuild Judea. He's going to rebuild it as a place that's friendly to Rome as well as to the Jews. And he does it by creating a new city, a port city, Caesarea by the sea. Caesarea Maritima. Very interesting place. If you go to Israel, you can visit it today. The ruins are quite substantial and he builds it as a Roman city. He has his engineers build an artificial harbor which is quite impressive and remarkable. But also the centerpiece of the city is a temple to Augustus. And it's got a hippodrome which is also going to be used for gladiatorial games, the Actian Games commemorating the battle of Actium. There are Jews living there, but it is mostly a pagan city. He builds another pagan city. It's near the modern day city of Nablus on the west bank in Samaria. It's called Sebaste, which means Augusta in Greek. Also a pagan city to Augustus. Finally, on the road to Damascus, he builds a spectacular temple whose ruins you can see today a temple of Augustus. So he's got Augustus coming and going in Jerusalem. He'd love to build a temple to Augustus, but he knows he can't do that instead. And Herod's a Jew. He's a Jew descended from one of the groups who was conquered by the Maccabean kings and that converted to Judaism. But he is a Jew. His mother, by the way, is an Arab. So he's part Jew, part Arab, but a Jew. And his most famous building thing is the temple. He rebuilds the temple which was not so spectacular when it was re erected by the refugees who came from Babylon. He builds it to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest and most spectacular religious site in the ancient world. And part of the foundation wall for the temple still stands. It's the famous Western wall or wailing wall in Jerusalem and actually it's bigger than that, but that's the part that's most famous and venerated by Jews.

[Host 2]

Barry, can I do what I do best, which is ask an uber stupid question?

[Barry Strauss]

Not at all, please.

[Host 2]

What is the significance of the Temple beyond its religious function? Why is it such a, to this day, a point of great importance and contention?

[Barry Strauss]

So the Temple for the Jews is the house of God. It's the house where God comes down to earth and where people can talk to him. For a Jew in the ancient world, you know, a pilgrimage to the Temple is as important as a pilgrimage as the Hajj is today for a Muslim. So going to Jerusalem and going to the Temple is as important as going to. As important as going to Mecca. And according to the Torah, according to the Jewish law, if you have sins that you need to atone for, you go to the temple and make a sacrifice. If you're a wealthy man, it will be a woman, because women can do this too. It will be something expensive, it could even be a bull. But if you're a poor person, it's going to be a dove or a pigeon is what you would sacrifice at the Temple. And there are three great pilgrimage festivals in the year. There's still three great festivals today. Passover in the spring, Shavuot weeks, Pentecost in the beginning of the summer, and then Sukkot, which literally means booths, in the fall. It's a harvest festival, but also commemorating the Exodus in which the children of Israel lived in booths in the Sinai Desert. So you, the equivalent of the Hajj would be going to Jerusalem for one of these three great pilgrimages, festivals. Going to the Temple. Going to the Temple is not a simple thing. You would first purify yourself at the Pool of Siloam, which is physically in the lower part of the city. And then you would take the pilgrim road up to the temple and there would be singing, there would be priests who would chant psalms and prayers. And the temple that Herod built was quite spectacular. And there are various ways, various levels or stages of getting into it. So it would be an extraordinary event.

[Host 2]

Going into this year, I told myself I was finally going to stop guessing about my health. Like most people, I want more energy, better focus, and to be still strong and sharp years from now. But every time I've gone to the doctor, I walk out with basically nothing. Everything's fine, drink more water, sleep a bit more. No real insight, no plan, just vibes. That's why Superpower stood out to me. Superpower makes it simple to actually understand what's going on inside your body. You do one blood draw either at home or in a nearby lab, and they analyze over 100 biomarkers. That's heart, health, hormones, metabolism, vitamins, minerals, and even environmental toxins. What I love is that you don't just get numbers. You get a personalized action plan, supplements, nutrition guidance, lifestyle changes, and even your true biological age that you can track over time. Price wise, this is a no brainer compared to the alternatives. Superpower used to cost $499. Right now it's 199, while other testing services charge $501,000, sometimes more for similar, often inferior information. Your blueprint activated with Superpower superpower is just 199. And for a limited time, you can get an additional $20 off with our code TRIGGER. Head to superpower.com and use code TRIGGER at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them, so make sure to mention trigonometry to support the show. Once Again, head to superpower.com and use our code Trigger at checkout. And the act of building this grand temple is part of his Herod's assertion of his power attempt to establish his status and reputation.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes, but it's all absolutely. But it's a way to cement his relationship with the Jews. So for the Romans, he's built temples to Augustus, to the Jews, he has rebuilt the temple in the most spectacular way. And the Talmud, which was written several centuries later and which is very anti. Herod says if you never saw Herod's temple, you never saw a beautiful building. There are many descriptions of how quite spectacular it was and how Jews from around the world would donate to the temple gold and silver doors and various ornaments, et cetera and so forth. And Herod makes Jerusalem brings its greatest period of prosperity. Until the 20th century, it's never as prosperous or as important a city again.

[Host 1]

And that's so fascinating because you have this ruler who is a Jew, who built this incredible temple which is still revered to this day, or part of it is made it as wealthy as it has been and for a significant period of time, as it will ever be.

[Barry Strauss]

Right?

[Host 1]

And yet he's absolutely loathed and despised. Why is that?

[Barry Strauss]

Okay, he's loathed and despised for a variety of reasons. For one reason, if you are a pious Jew, you think that Judea, the land of Israel, is the holy land and he's desecrating it by building pagan Temples to other gods, because there's only one God. And he's also doing things that a pious Jew would abominate, like having gladiatorial games, killing other human beings, killing animals, which is part of their games as well, killing beasts, killing prisoners in that way. All of that is absolutely anathema to a pious Jew. But he's also a tyrant who. He kills Jewish sages, he massacres people. One of the things that he does is he puts an eagle up on the entrance way to the temple. And late in his reign, a group of students, I call them Torah students, they rappel up the temple wall and try to take the eagle down. They're arrested and Herod has them and their teachers executed. So he does that as well. And finally, he's a monster to his own family. He has one of his many wives executed. He has his three most talented sons executed because he feels they're a threat to his rule. And they probably are a threat to his rule. And when he's dying, one of his last commands is that he wants the elite of Judea, the religious elite, all to be executed. Fortunately, after his death, that command is not carried out. But he is reviled for all of those reasons. And he builds forts all around Judea, strongholds. What's the point of these strongholds? Places for him to take refuge in when the population rises up against him. So for all those reasons, he's reviled a tyrannical figure.

[Host 1]

And it's really interesting in the book because you say when he's dying, he has this horrible condition, like a roc. Rotting flesh.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

And everybody, and practically everybody in the population goes, yeah, he deserved that.

[Barry Strauss]

Absolutely. Well, you know, I think that in some ways he can be compared to Stalin. I mean, he is an incredibly talented politician, a builder, in some ways the guy who saves the country. But in other ways he's a monster. And I think that there. There certainly were people in Judea who liked Herod, but there are many who disliked him as well. The other thing about Herod, and it needs to be said, is that Judea was a very complicated place. Now, Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel, but they're not the only people there. There are other ethnic groups. So first of all, there are Greek speakers in this period. There are a series of cities in Judea outside of Jerusalem, and many, if not most of them have Greek speaking majorities. Some of these are colonists who came when the Macedonians and Greeks conquered the place. Some of them are Syrians who have moved south into the city Some of them are native Canaanites who were not Jewish and who adopted Greek. They don't like the Jewish rulers. There's also the Samaritans who live in Samaria. They follow the Torah, but they do not recognize the supremacy of. They do not accept the temple there. They have their own temple on Mount Gerizim outside of Nablus. There are also small groups of Arabs in the north and in the south. And finally there are the Idumeans, who live in what's now central southern Israel. They've converted to Jerusalem. Judaism. Excuse me, they've converted to Judaism. But they're also a somewhat separate ethnic group, and there are many Jews who don't like the fact that Herod makes deals with all these people and he wants to be their king as well as the king of the Jews. So there are all sorts of reasons why people don't like him.

[Host 2]

And is there also an element of him being seen as a foreign student?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. Both because of his relationship with Rome and because he's half Idumean and half Arab. So just as Stalin was seen as a Georgian and not really a Russian by people who don't like him, so Herod is seen as a foreigner by people who don't like him.

[Host 1]

And it's really interesting because we're talking about this man who is a fantastic politician.

[Barry Strauss]

Right.

[Host 1]

Strong leader.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Makes astute decisions.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Yet when it comes to possibly the most important decision of any leader's career, which is to appoint a worthy successor.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

He kind of makes a hash of it.

[Barry Strauss]

He does make a hash of it. Absolutely. And, you know, his. His fear of his own sons is the undoing of his dynasty, because after he goes, he is replaced by Atroika, three of his sons. Augustus isn't really all that impressed by any of them. One rules over the central part of the kingdom, the main part of the kingdom. One rules over Galilee and part of the Golan, and another rules over part of the Golan and parts that are in Lebanon and Syria. So the kingdom is divided up among the three of them and the one. And immediately when Herod dies, this is the signal for a Jewish rebellion against Rome. And they're very unimpressed by the main son who's going to replace him, and the governor of Syria, who is young, vigorous, very good soldier, immediately comes down to Judea and suppresses the rebellion quite brutally, ending up the last act as he crucifies, crucifies 2000 people around the walls of Jerusalem. That makes the point. But Augustus gets the picture that the guy who's he's appointed to replace Herod just isn't all that impressive. And after about a decade, he fires him, you're out, and sends him to exile in the south of France. Not too bad, but not like being the ruler of Judea. And now Judea, the main part of it, becomes a Roman province in the year six, which is a signal for another revolt which is also repressed quite handily.

[Host 1]

And I think it's worth mentioning at this point because one of the things that I read in the book actually was how this society, so the Jewish society, the elites weren't the military, they weren't people who you would normally associate with being the people making the decisions.

[Barry Strauss]

Right.

[Host 1]

They were. They were the religious people, they were the priests.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. So, I mean, there are Jews who are in the military. Herod has an army which consists of. Has many different peoples, but there's a large Jewish contingent in it. But this is a society that's quite different than some of the societies that the Romans conquer. So when the Romans conquered the Greeks, the. They conquer people who are pretty similar to them in their religion, in their militarism, in their desire to build public buildings and to hold public office and succeed in that way. The Jews are different. I mean, this is a society in which. Exactly, as you say, Francis, it's a priestly society that has a different attitude towards what they want to get ahead. Now, that being said, there are Jews who assimilate and there are Jews who want to be like the Romans to succeed in Roman society. There's still two Jewish rulers in the northern part of the country. They collaborate with Rome. Herod sends his sons to Rome to be educated and many of the wealthy are quite content to work with Rome, but ordinary people are different.

[Host 2]

So Herod dies, his sons, the less useful of them, take over. Eventually Rome goes, let's not do any of this. You're going to be controlled by us. What time period are we up to at this point? What year?

[Barry Strauss]

So we're up to the year 6 AD 6 CE.

[Host 2]

Quite an important event is approaching.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

If my history doesn't.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. I think you're referring to the mission of Jesus Christ. Yes, yes. So Jesus, we think, was born in the year 4 BC, the last year of Herod's rule. And we think his mission comes to a culmination around the year 30 AD. And Jesus is. There are. This is a period, it's the golden age of apocalyptic vision and the golden age of messianism in Jewish culture. That is by Apocalypse, the idea that the world as we know it is going to come to an end and that an age of redemption is going to begin, and that the kingdom of God is going to begin.

[Host 2]

What does that mean? What's the kingdom of God?

[Barry Strauss]

What's the kingdom of God? Well, it means, first of all, that the House of David will be restored and that a descendant of King David will become the King Messiah, and that he will bring in the redemption, that God will rule, that everyone will recognize the validity of the one God, that the Jewish people will be free and independent and able to practice their religion without rule by Romans or anyone else. And there are various figures who claim to be the Messiah. Now, the Messiah was thought to be a human being, a descendant of the House of David. Not a figure who is more than human. Not a divine figure, certainly of divine inspiration, but a human being. And there are many people who believe this at the time. Jesus is in some ways very similar to these figures. I mean, he is someone who says that the kingdom of God is at hand, that the redemption is at hand, and he is going to usher it in. But unlike some of these figures, he is not an advocate of armed rebellion against Rome, far from it. He's an advocate of spiritual resistance, spiritual rebellion, if you will. Jesus is like and different than other figures from this period. So one thing about the Jews, the Jews in the first century of our era are different than modern Jews in some ways, but in other ways, they're just like modern Jews. And one of the things about them is that they dispute with each other. They disagree about the right thing. And there's already been, for well over a century, there's been a group of Jews who said, we don't recognize the legitimacy of the ruling dynasty, the descendants of the Maccabees, who also appointed themselves high priests. These people are totally illegitimate. They're not descended from the House of David. We quit and they moved to the desert, to a place called Qumran, which is in the Judean desert near the Dead Sea. And there they had a community. They live in other places as well. They're called the Essenes, and they're the people who've left us the Dead Sea Scrolls, these fantastic documents that give open a window into Jewish sectarian belief in this period. There are other sects within Judaism, and Jesus and his followers, like those people, have real problems with the Temple in Jerusalem and what's going on there. Jesus preaches that your sins can be forgiven by following him. You don't have to sacrifice at the Temple. Anymore, and that the temple will be destroyed and rebuilt in the time of the Redemption. These are heretical doctrines from the point of view of the priests. And Jesus also after his mission in the Galilee. Well, his mission in the Gal. Jesus is Galilean. He comes from Nazareth. Though he may have been born in Bethlehem, believers would say he was. He gets in trouble with the king who rules the prince who rules the Galilee. But he goes to Jerusalem, famously the culmination of his mission. And he goes to Jerusalem not at any old time. He goes during Passover. Passover is the festival of freedom, and it's traditional time for rebels to show themselves. It's when the Romans have extra troops in Jerusalem because they're expecting trouble. And from their point of view, and from the point of view of the high priest, Jesus is trouble. And that, of course, leads to the trial and to the crucifixion and believers who would say to the resurrection. So all of this is going on at the same time. And afterwards, Jesus followers, heartbroken, regroup and decide, well, what does this mean? We thought that Jesus was the Messiah and was going to bring in the kingdom of God, but now something different is going on. And they believe that Jesus comes back and speaks to them and sets them on a mission to continue his mission. So it's the beginning of what becomes Christianity. The earlier period, scholars would refer to them as followers of Christ or followers of Jesus. In the beginning, they thought of themselves as Jews, but then things changed later on.

[Host 2]

And this is kind of going back a little bit, but just you mentioned this thing about Jews being similar to the way some are now. Three Jews, five opinions, that kind of thing.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

The rebellious nature of that area and that province.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Was that because everybody was constantly trying to free themselves of the shackles of Rome or other major powers in the region? Or is this group of people very particularly rebellious?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes and no. First of all, there are lots of rebellious groups in the Roman Empire. So the Jews are not unusual in that way, but. But they are unusual for a couple of reasons. So first of all, put yourself in their shoes. You've been under the thumb of foreign rulers for centuries, and then suddenly you win your independence, and then about a century later, it's snatched away. That must have been devastating and humiliating for them under those circumstances. Secondly, you have this kind of engine of apocalypticism saying, the kingdom of God is at hand, redemption is at hand. Everything that you see here is going to be swept away and the golden age is coming. So they have that, but they also have something else, and that is the diaspora. And the diaspora makes them. They're not the only people in the ancient world to have a diaspora. But what's unusual about their diaspora is that one of its feet is in the Parthian Empire. And there are still Jews in Judea who say, you know, we were better off under the Iranians. Ironically. Ironically today, you know, the Islamic Republic of Iran is Israel's greatest enemy. But in antiquity and actually through most of history, Iran has had very good relations with the Jewish people and with the state of Israel. And when there's been a Jewish state there. So there's still plenty of people in Judea who are saying, the Romans, you know, we have an alternative. That alternative is Parthia. And Parthia is Rome's chief rival. It's the only empire left standing in the ancient world. That drives the Romans crazy. And the Romans fight the Parthians and I should say the Iranians, because eventually there's another empire that replaces the Parthians. They fight the Iranians for centuries. They're still fighting the Iranians when the Roman Empire is gone and it's the Byzantine Empire. So the fact that the Jews have what they might see as the Iranian safety valve, that's also one of the reasons they rebel and why they're constantly trying to get help from the Parthian Empire.

[Host 1]

We get asked this all the time, which VPN do you use at trigonometry? The answer is simply CyberGhost VPN. CyberGhost isn't some fringe tool. It has 38 million users and over 20,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot, which frankly, is rare for any tech product, let alone a VPN. CyberGhost encrypts your Internet traffic, which means your provider, your employer, your school, or anyone else on public WI fi cannot see what you're doing online. It routes your connection through secure servers in 100 countries, hides your IP address and keeps no logs at all so your activity isn't being tracked or stored. On top of that, it unlocks regional content from 40 streaming platforms like Netflix, Amazon prime and Disney Plus. And it works on up to seven devices at once. Phones, laptops, tablets, even your smart TV. You can share it with your family if you want. We rely on it when we're traveling for the show because it's simple, fast and it just works. Right now, you can get CyberGhost for about 2 bucks a month with 4 months free, a 45 day money back guarantee and 24. 7 support. That's protection for your browsing data and access to blocked Content online for two bucks a month, totally risk free. To grab the offer, go to cyberghostvpn.com trigonometry or click the link in the description of this episode. It's completely risk free. So check it out today. Look, I'm not a Roman apologist. I don't even think that's a thing. It will be a thing. I'm sure someone will clip it and point me and say, he's a Roman apologist. And that'll mean someone tries to cancel me somewhere. But genuinely, generally speaking, if you think about all the empires, particularly at that time, or a little bit before, a little bit after, Right. Was it that bad being a Roman citizen?

[Barry Strauss]

No, it wasn't that bad being a Roman citizen. But it depends what you want. If you want to be independent and you can't be independent anymore, that's not so great. And also, if your country has been Romanized in ways that you don't like, that's also not so great. So, you know, before the Romans, you think, hey, this is the Holy Land. And now you've got the Romans and oops, there's a pagan city here, there's a pagan city there, there's a pagan city there. You don't like that either. You also don't like paying taxes and there are Roman troops. I mean, you had to pay taxes before, but now you're paying taxes to the Romans. There are Roman troops and there are incidents that happen. There are Roman troops who will tear up Torah scrolls. There's a famous or infamous, almost funny incident where a Roman soldier moons some Jewish people and that drives them crazy. So there's this stuff going on still. Nonetheless, it's not that bad. Until if we jump ahead a bit, we get.

[Host 2]

Wait, before we jump ahead a bit, one more other question on this. Prior to the emergence of Jesus, Nazareth and later, obviously Christianity, are the Jews the only people in this part of the world who are monotheistic, who believe there is one God?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Is that a big dividing line that causes friction?

[Barry Strauss]

I don't think so. Okay, I'm not the only Other scholars would disagree. But. And also it should be said that the Iranians, as Zoroastrians, they're leaning towards a kind of monotheism, but it's not as monotheistic as the Jews. The Romans make fun of the Jews. Look at those people. They don't have a decent statue of their God. Some of them will complain. They call the Jews atheists because the Jews don't believe in the gods. But honestly, the Romans are among the great pragmatists of history. They don't really care who you worship as long as you're not a political problem. And one great sign of this, and one of the really clever things that Herod did, was he knew that he couldn't have a temple of Augustus in Jerusalem, but he does the next best thing. He has daily sacrifices in the temple in Jerusalem on behalf of the Roman emperor, and those sacrifices are paid for by Augustus and his successors. It shows that, you know, they're shaking hands, these two sides are getting along. It's really a brilliant solution.

[Host 2]

Well, the reason I ask is obviously we live in a world in which it's sort of almost uniformly accepted that monotheism is, you know, superior.

[Barry Strauss]

Right?

[Host 2]

But the Jews didn't, at this point think, well, we are better than the Romans because we've got one God.

[Barry Strauss]

Oh, of course they did. And the Romans thought they were better than the Jews because they had the gods. So, absolutely. I just don't think this is a religious conflict. There are only two times, only two people in the ancient world who the Romans go after for, quote, unquote, religious reasons. The Jews and the druids in Britain. They go after the druids not because they really care what the druids believe, but because they believe, rightly, that the druids are the engine of opposition to the Roman conquest of Britannia. That's their problem with the druids. Their problem with the Jews is that the Jews are, first of all, playing footsie with the Parthians. They don't like. Secondly, the Jews don't. They're the only people who get a free. In the eastern part of the empire, the only people get a free pass. They don't have to worship the emperor, but as long as they're making daily sacrifices in the. In the temple on behalf of the emperor, it's okay. Caligula has a problem with that, and he tries to force them to set up a statue of the emperor in the temple, which would have caused a revolt. Fortunately, he's assassinated before it can be carried out. But in general, the Romans just don't care as long as you're not a political problem for them or a military problem.

[Host 2]

Okay, so come back to the chronology of the story. Jesus is crucified, dies on the cross. Believers will say, resurrected.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And what happens to Judea after this,

[Barry Strauss]

so briefly, between the years 41 and 44, the Romans restore the monarchy of Herod and Herod's grandson Agrippa, a man named Agrippa is appointed king. Why do they appoint him king? Because Agrippa has been raised in Rome. By the way, Agrippa's a Roman name. He's named after Augustus, right hand man. He's been raised in Rome, and he is the kingmaker who helps to make Claudius the emperor after Caligula is assassinated. So they think he's a very safe guy and should be rewarded, and they make him king of Judea. He rules only for three years and then he dies young, either of a stroke, let us say, or some disease or poison. There's some reason to think he was poisoned by his enemies. And at that point the Romans say, nah, forget it, it's back to being a Roman province. So Judea becomes a Roman province. You know, Augustus was an emperor who not only was Herod very clever in balancing things with Rome, Augustus was very clever in balancing things with the provinces. He knew when to push and when to step back. And he's quite content with having a ruler like Herod who he can cooperate with. Augustus's successors are not always as clever as Augustus. We get Caligula, who almost starts a rebellion in Judea because he wants to have a statue of him put up in the temple. And then we get Nero after Claudius. And Nero, as you know, is not the world's nicest guy. And Nero loves the Greeks, not real fond of the Jews. And he appoints a Greek to be governor of Judea. And basically, after the great fire in Rome, Nero means money. He needs it really bad because he wants to rebuild Rome as Nero city Neuropolis is going to be. And it's expensive to rebuild the city. And he gives the governor basically carte blanche to squeeze the provincials until the pips squeak. So the governor, who is a Greek, sides with the Greeks in Judea in ethnic conflict with the Jews, and he mistreats the Jews in various ways. He takes money from the temple, and when there's a protest, a peaceful protest in Jerusalem, he sends in the troops to massacre the civilians in Jerusalem. Jerusalem. And as a Roman historian who writes about it says at that point, the Jews had had enough. So you've got an emperor who's making life more difficult for the Jews. But you also have movements in Jewish society that are less tolerant of the Romans. You have one group called the dagger men, the Sicarii. They are assassins, and they carry daggers under their cloaks. Of course, being Jews, their favorite group to kill are people to kill are other Jews, but they consider to be collaborators against the Romans. But they're very Anti Roman. And then you get priests, a new generation of young priests, who, as often happens in history, the young want to rebel against their fathers. They say our fathers were wimps. They just went along with the Romans. But, you know, we don't have to do this anymore. We can rebel against the Romans and we can get away with it. And so they're called enthusiasts. This young group, the Greek for enthusiast, is zealot. That's what we get our word zealot from. They model themselves on a figure in the Torah who is very extremely zealous in rooting out what he sees as paganism and does not show away from violence to do it. And that's their attitude as well. The signal for the revolt in the year 66 is they say, you know what you can't sacrifice in the temple if you're a foreigner anymore? What that means is that you can't have sacrifices on behalf of the emperor anymore, since it's sponsored by the Romans. That is, in effect, a declaration of independence, which the Romans are not going to tolerate. And then when the Romans start making a fuss about this, they then massacre the garrison in Jerusalem, which is more than a signal of independence. It's an act of outright rebellion for good measure. There are Jews who are killing each other. There are dagger men who are killing zealots. And then the dagger men are. The leader of the dagger men is killed and the rest of them flee from Jerusalem, and they spend the rest of the revolt in a fortress near the Dead Sea called Masada, a fairly famous place later on. But now we've got to the point in the year 66 when Judea is in revolt.

[Host 1]

So Judea is in revolt.

[Barry Strauss]

Right.

[Host 1]

And I'm not again a Herod apologist, but doesn't that, Don't. Doesn't that kind of mean that. Look, Herod was brutal. He was awful, right? You know, he wasn't Stalin, Gray. He wasn't. Yeah, yeah, Stalin. Let's bring him back. But in some. In some of those types of countries or provinces, particularly in that time, the only real option to have any kind of sustained peace was a Herod like figure.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. And of course, as you know, there are Stalin. The Stalin nostalgia in Russia today. Yeah, but. Yeah, and there were definitely. So, you know, at the time of the American Revolution, or, excuse me, the American war of independence against the rightful king. John Adams said, look, there were three groups. There were three groups in the revolution. He says afterwards, one group wanted independence, one group wanted to be under the king, and one group just wanted to keep their heads down. And the place was divided 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. We don't have any statistics like that from antiquity, but it's a pretty good guess that it was pretty similar. And we know that there were collaborators with the Romans and that the ruling there were still descendants, members of the dynasty of Herod. They're ruling in the north. They also have a lot of say in authority in Jerusalem. They go to Jerusalem, they plead with the rebels, don't do this. It's insane. It's suicide. You can't defeat the Romans. It's not going to happen. And don't think the Parthian king or our brethren in the Parthian Empire are going to come to our aid. It's just not going to work. Stop this insanity before it's too late. But they are practically killed for what they say. The rebels aren't going to hear it. They send soldiers who help the Romans to put down the rebellion. So there are Jews who basically say, Stalin was great, Herod was great. You know, forget this nonsense. Also, there is an element of the revolt that's a social revolution. Not all of it, but there are part. There are people among the rebels who want to help the poor, who want to take wealth away from the rich. They even. Some will talk about freeing slaves. So that's very disturbing to the wealthy as well.

[Host 2]

And I imagine once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison. Yeah, forgive my French. You're kind of fucked, right?

[Barry Strauss]

You're kind of. Yeah, you're kind of effed once you've. Once you've forgiven. This is a family show, so I'll just say F. But yes, once you've slaughtered the Roman garrison, that's it, you know, so the governor of Syria. So the Romans don't have a legion in Judea. They basically control Judea with local troops, non Jewish troops. A lot of them are Samaritans who don't get along with the Jews. But now you gotta bring in the legions. The governor of Judea, of Syria, the neighboring province, comes south with about 30,000 men. And he goes to Jerusalem and basically says, cut it out. But it doesn't work. And in fact, he's an older guy, probably past his prime. His troops are harassed on the way to Jerusalem. And then when he leaves Jerusalem, it's now the rainy season, it's October, and he's heading back to the coast to go back to Syria. In a narrow valley, he's ambushed. And the rebels manage to destroy the better part of a legion that is, you know, a four Long fire as far as Nero is concerned. And it's time to get serious. So after this, he chooses one of his best generals. He doesn't have many left because he's had his best generals killed, because, like Herod, he's afraid of rebellion. With good reason. There had already been an uprising against him and there will soon be another one. But he's got one good general left, a man named Vespasian. He says, I choose you, you've got to put down the revolt. He's not worried about Vespasian. Vespasian doesn't come from the Roman nobility. In fact, he is a descendant of what the Romans will look down on as a middle class family from the Sabine country north of Rome. But he's a good general. He's fought in Britain, he's beat up some Brits and, you know, and now, as far as the Romans were concerned, like the two worst places were Britain and Judea. You know, these are that really bad people.

[Host 1]

There's a lot, all the time. There's a lot of people on the Internet who would agree with that.

[Host 2]

Yes.

[Barry Strauss]

So he comes with a new army now. We're closer to 60,000 men and it's now the year 67. Wow.

[Host 2]

And what happens then, by the way? Maybe. Sorry, Barry, sorry to interrupt my own question, that's an extra level for me. But maybe it's worth you describing Jerusalem at this point, because I actually, in preparation for this interview, watched some stuff on YouTube showing what the city was like and it's mightily impressive. It's not an easy place to go.

[Barry Strauss]

No, no, not at all. So, I mean, it was chosen very intelligently as a capital. So Jerusalem sits, it's in the hill country and Israel is very. It's almost like a topographical map. Do we still have topographical maps? I don't know. I hope so. But there's the coastal plain and then there's the rolling hills, and then you get up to what are almost mountains. They call them mountains by American standards. They're not really mountains, but they're pretty high hills. That's where Jerusalem is. On three sides. It's surrounded by valleys, so it's really impossible to take, or very hard to take. It's only on the fourth side, the northern side, where it's relatively flat and it's relatively vulnerable. One of the Jewish kings wanted to fortify. So the city is really well fortified by Herod, but it needed to be ultra fortified on the northern side. And when King Agrippa. I tried to do that, the Romans stopped him because they knew that was dangerous, but really hard to take. Impressive place, a little bit smaller than the old city of Jerusalem today, but super highly fortified. And the temple sits on a hill above the city, so that's even more fortified. In addition, it's got a spring, it's got a natural source of water, and people have laid up large supplies of food so it can feed itself for a very long time. So you're not going to lightly lay siege to Jerusalem. You really don't want to have to do that.

[Host 2]

And Vespasian turns up with 60, the

[Barry Strauss]

space inside, and he comes from the north, and he attacks the north first. He goes after the Galilee and he wipes the floor with it. There are some cities that immediately said, we love Rome, and they become his base. And there's one city in central Galilee called Jotapata, and the commander of it is Josephus. Josephus is our main source for the revolt, because afterwards he wrote memoirs and he writes a memoir about the revolt. He is the general in charge of Galilee. He's a priest, a minor priest, and he's been to Rome. He speaks Greek, he has a view of the wider world. And depending on which story of his you believe, because he had different stories at different time, he was trying as hard as he could to defeat the Romans, or he was trying as hard as he could to convince the rebels to stop this crazy rebellion. In any case, he. He's in charge of Jotapata. And Vespasian lays siege to Jotapata in June of the year 67. And for about six weeks, Josephus and his fellows withstand the Roman legions.

[Host 1]

Wow.

[Barry Strauss]

And it's hot. You know, it's going to be like 90 degrees Fahrenheit there, really hot and miserable. And they don't have a natural spring, so they're running out of water. In the end, the Romans take the city, as the Romans usually do. They massacre the inhabitants. And Josephus and the other leaders of the revolt are in a cave. There are about. I think there are 42 of them. And they decide on a mass suicide pact. Josephus says, this is crazy, we should just surrender. No, no, no, no. I want to commit suicide. Suicide by a lottery, you know, or, you know, I'll kill you, you kill the next one, so and so forth, until there are only two men left, and one of them is Josephus, and Josephus is the last guy. Come on. So he survives, he surrenders to the Romans. And by the way, there are, in math, there's something called the Josephus problem, how you can use simple arithmetic to rig a lottery so that you win it. Josephus claims it was fair, but he goes to the Romans. He's brought before Vespasian, and he knows that he's in chains. He's going to be shipped off to Rome, to the tender mercies of Nero, which would be awful, but he has a plan, and he says to Vespasian, look, I'm a priest. I see things that ordinary people don't see, and I want to tell you that you're going to become the emperor of Rome. And Vespasian says, okay, you get to live, and I'm not going to strip you off to Nero. So it's the year 67. Vespasian then goes to the capital of the Jewish king of the north, Agrippa ii, and he helps Agrippa II to put down a revolt in another very impressive fortification, a place called Gamla, which means camel, because it looks like a camel's hump. And there, too, the Romans have to fight to take the place. Very dramatic place, if you ever have a chance to visit it. And they do, they eventually take it, and they massacre the people there, just as they did at Jotapata. They massacre the men, they enslave the women and children. And now it's the end of the fighting season, and Vespasian rests up for over the winter. And then the next year, he's. Now, what's happened in the north is that those who want to continue the rebellion try to escape, and they make their way to Jerusalem, which is under the control of the rebels and is this great fortress. Vespasians knocks off cities one by one around Judea, trying to isolate Jerusalem. And then at the end of the spring, the word comes from Rome. Nero has been deposed, he's committed suicide. There is a new emperor. And Vespasian says, hmm, what does this mean? What are my orders now? Am I supposed to continue this suppression of the rebellion or what? So he calls a halt. And in effect, for the next two years, the war is at a pause, and the rebels are in Jerusalem, and they have the leisure to do what they want. And what do they want to do? Kill each other?

[Host 2]

Devil makes work for idle hands.

[Barry Strauss]

Devil makes works for idle hands. And so there are various factions. There's the daggermen, there's the Zealots, there's the rebels who've come from the north, led by a man named John, and there are the rebels who've come from the east, led by a man named Simon. John is A wealthy man, a man of property. He has no interest in the social revolution. Simon is a champion of the poor. They're both very good leaders. But Simon is especially charismatic. And Simon gets the Idumeans to support him. And the Idumeans have a very good army. So there is a bloodbath in Jerusalem, these people killing each other. There are three factions. There's Simon's faction, there's John's faction. There's the Zealots. And ultimately there's just two factions. John's factions and Simon's factions. As bad as this killing of each other is, even worse is the one thing they do that seems really crazy. They burn the food supply.

[Host 2]

They burn each other food supply.

[Barry Strauss]

So there's enough food left over for the soldiers to feed themselves, but there's not enough food left over for the civilians of Jerusalem to live. Political scientists refer to something called credible commitment. We might say burning your bridges, because then you have a credible commitment because you have nowhere else to go. They have now given the ultimate credible commitment. You know, if you're not part of this, we're not even going to feed you. But then ultimately they can't feed them.

[Host 1]

Can I be blunt, please? They fucking deserve to lose.

[Barry Strauss]

You might say it from the point. From the military point of view. This is insane. This is absolutely insane.

[Host 1]

Tax season is the one time of year you're forced to look at your full financial picture. What came in, what went out, and the uncomfortable question of where the rest went. I didn't just want to look back in horror. I wanted to actually do something with it. That's why I use Monarch. What I actually like about it is that it doesn't just track what you've spent and make you feel bad about it. It's built around planning ahead and hitting real goals. Whether that's paying off debt, saving for something big, or just finally understanding where your money is going before it disappears. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch, the all in one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. It brings your entire financial life, budgeting accounts and investments, net worth and future planning together in one dashboard on your phone or laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season. And get 50% off your Monarch subscription with Code Trigger. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch. Use code [e-mail] for half off your first year. That's 50% [e-mail] code trigger.

[Host 2]

The way you describe this land at the time, it just sounds like Revolutionary Fever is everywhere.

[Barry Strauss]

Revolutionary Fever is everywhere.

[Host 2]

Everyone is going Wild. Everyone's going crazy. Everyone thinks that the kingdom of is about. Everything's about to change. And so people are behaving in these very irrational ways.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes, but at the same time, they're not completely irrational. I mean, that's true, there are crazies, but they're also. They're not completely irrational. They're sending embassies to the Parthians to get help. And they do get some help. So one player who I've left out is Queen Helena. Queen Helena, who is the queen of Adiabeen, which is roughly today's Iraqi Kurdistan. She's active in the earlier part of the century, in the 30s and the 40s, and she and her sons convert to Judaism. They're pagans. And she. After she turns the throne over to one of her sons, her husband who had been the king, dies, she moves to Jerusalem and she spends a number of years there learning about Judaism and building a palace there. And in fact, her dynasty ends up building three separate palaces in Jerusalem, feeding the people there when there's a famine. So she's a beloved figure and arranging for her ultimately to be buried in Jerusalem. And indeed, her tomb still exists. You can visit it. Remarkable place in East Jerusalem. But what is she doing? What's this all about? I think on the one hand it's conversion. She has a religious, experienced convert. On the other hand, she's creating a foothold, a handhold, excuse me, in the west, her kingdom, she's a vassal of the Parthian king, but she now has an opening to the west. And her sons, her grandsons, are educated in Jerusalem and they're there at the time of the rebellion, and they and their followers join the rebellion and they support the rebels. So the rebels are getting some support from Parthia, but not the massive aid that they wanted.

[Host 1]

But, Barry, as you look at it from the outside. Okay, you go. They're at each other's throats. And look, I get that, you know, there's a spirit of revolution. You know, people want power, they want money, all of these things. But wasn't there part of them going, hang up? Look, lads, there's about 50,000 Roman soldiers over there. They've got one of their best generals. They're just saying that eventually they're going to come.

[Barry Strauss]

Yeah, yeah, they should have. Absolutely. And you know, when the Talmud looks back on the revolts, and the Talmud criticizes the revolts, it condemns them. It says that Jerusalem and the Temple were not destroyed because of the Romans, they were destroyed because of the Jews. And what they call senseless hatred. Senseless hatred of Jews against each other. That's why they were destroyed.

[Host 1]

So.

[Host 2]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Host 1]

So. So we've got to the point where there are each other's throats. There's pretty much a civil war happening within Jerusalem.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

What happens at this point? Does one group become dominant or.

[Barry Strauss]

I. I mean, so there are really two groups, Simon and John.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Barry Strauss]

And the city's on different levels. It's actually on a hill, and so Simon controls one area and John controls another area, but neither one is fully in control of the city. But Simon has more power than John.

[Host 1]

Okay, so Simon has more power than John, but the city's effectively in a deadlock there. Yes, the city's in a deadlock. It's completely divided. It is therefore weakened.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

So what happens? What are the Romans doing at this point? It's been two years.

[Barry Strauss]

The Romans are having a civil war of their own.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Barry Strauss]

It's civil war versus civil war. Nero commits suicide in the year 68, and an old man named Galvan, who's the governor of Spain, comes and becomes emperor in Rome. He's immediately deposed, or pretty soon deposed by a man named Otho, who is deposed by a man named Vitellius. And Vespasian's in the East. He's a general of the East. He sees all this going on, and he gets the support of a very important player, the governor of Egypt. The governor of Egypt happens to be a Jew named Tiberius Julius Alexander, who's also a great soldier, great military guy, and he throws his support behind Vespasian. He's got legions in Egypt. And Vespasian now is hero, is proclaimed as emperor in the year in July of 69. So this is. Romans call this the year of the four emperors, because there are four different elbows, Emperors. Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. Vespasian leaves Judea, he goes to Egypt, and he organizes an army which goes to the west and ultimately conquers Rome and makes him emperor. The suppression of the rebellion is on pause. The Romans are doing nothing. The rebels are in Jerusalem. Life seems to be going on as usual in Jerusalem, although much of the country, it's cut off from much of the country. And there are people who think Jerusalem is this fantastic fortress. The Romans will never conquer us. We're safe here. I think John says something like, the Romans will conquer Jerusalem when they can fly.

[Host 2]

Turns out he was wrong.

[Barry Strauss]

Turns out he was wrong. It turns out he was wrong. So in the year 70, Vespasian says, we got to Take care of business. He sends a new army under his son Titus, with the help of the governor of Egypt, Tiberius Julius Alexander, who is his chief of staff in effect. And they laid siege to Jerusalem. The Romans do not have an easy time of it. The Jews forte from the military point of view is irregular warfare, raids, ambushes, guerrilla attacks. And they have water, which the Romans don't. So they give the Romans a run for their money. But there's only so far they can go, especially because people are dying and starving in the city and anyone who can leave is trying to leave until the Romans cut that off. To make a long story short, there is a very, very hard fought siege. It lasts five months, but in the end the Romans thoroughly conquer the city and they destroy the temple and they basically destroy the city. The city is left in ruins and by the autumn of 70, Jerusalem is a ruin and the revolt is all but over.

[Host 1]

So Jerusalem has fallen?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Is that the end of the story now?

[Barry Strauss]

No, there's still pockets of rebels and the Romans have dealt with this sort of thing before. They put down rebellions, but there's still pockets of rebels and they'll get around to it. And it's three or four years later when we're not actually sure whether it was the winter of 73 or the winter of 74. Probably the winter of 74 when the Romans finally snuff out the last pocket of resistance at Masada, this famous fortress in the Judean desert. And the Romans are able to take Masada and they discover to their shock when they get to the top, that all but six people there have committed suicide or submitted to a mass execution, killing of each other. There's over 900 people there, men, women and children, and they're all dead, except for a few who have hidden in a drain pipe and survived.

[Host 1]

So the, the Judea has been completely conquered?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Rome is dominant.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

What happens to the Jewish people now?

[Barry Strauss]

So I mean, most of them say, well that was that and let's move on. But they're still rebels. Some of the rebels in Judea have fled to Egypt and to Libya. They start try to incite revolts there, but the Romans are able to suppress them. But the Romans make some big mistakes. The first thing they do is that there was a second Jewish temple in Egypt which had no doubt been built before the Torah became the law of the land. The Romans tear that down as well. But the one big, biggest mistake the Romans make is they decide to punish the Jews of the empire by doing something unprecedented. They impose A tax on all of them. They've never done anything like this before to rebellious people. The Jewish tax, the so called Jewish fund, Fiscus Judaicus. And every Jew every year has to pay a tax to Rome. And not just to Rome. They have to pay a tax to the chief God of Rome, to Jupiter of the Capitoline Hill. It's as if to add insult to injury, you have a tax that's humiliating enough, but the tax says your God is nothing, your God is gone, we've destroyed his temple, and now you have to pay tax to the chief God of Rome. Earlier on, there was the expectation that every Jew would pay a tax to the temple in Jerusalem. And that was kind of a big deal in the Diaspora. Now they have to pay a tax to the chief God of Rome. And this tax lasts for centuries.

[Host 2]

And why do you say this was a big mistake? Because it's utterly humiliating and it foments more rebellion.

[Barry Strauss]

It fends more rebellion. I mean, if you think back to what Churchill said after the Second World War, in victory, magnanimity. This is the opposite of magnanimity. In victory, yamiliate them. It's not a good thing to do. And foments more.

[Host 2]

And so you have this resentful population within the Roman Empire who keep rebelling, who are treated uniquely badly.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

For rebellious people.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

And where does, where do the Jewish people go from there?

[Barry Strauss]

So, first of all, you know, there's still a very large Jewish population living in Judea. I mean, many of them have been killed and many of them have been enslaved in exile, but there's still large numbers of them living all over the country. And they're trying to get by. They don't have the temple. They want to rebuild the temple. We have Jewish literature from this period in which they say they're talking about getting rid of the Romans and rebuilding the temple, but most of them are probably just trying to get by. There might not have been another rebellion, except for the fact that the Romans decided to conquer Parthia. And in the year 115, the Roman Emperor Trajan goes eastward and begins conquering the Parthian Empire. He's doing pretty well. First he takes Armenia, a larger kingdom in antiquity. Today that's ruled by a member of the Parthian royal family. And then he conquers all of Iraq down to the Persian Gulf. The next year, in 116, there is a revolt in the Roman rear, there's an uprising. The Jews of Libya, Egypt and Cyprus rise in rebellion. At the same time, there is an insurgency in Iraq Sound familiar? And among the leaders of the insurgency are the Jewish population. Is the Jewish population of Iraq. Now, we don't have a smoking gun. We have no ancient sources to prove that there is collusion. But I will eat my hat if there wasn't collusion between these two groups between the Parthians in the east and the Jews in the West. The Romans have to take a legion and send it to the west to put down this rebellion. It's no small thing. Rebels are doing quite well. They also have to deal with Jewish insurgents in the East. And to make a long story short, their conquest of Parthia is a total flop. They're driven out. They succeed in putting down the rebellion in the West. Unfortunately for the Jewish rebels, Jews, which had been a significant part of the population of Egypt, Libya and Cyprus are now all but wiped out. And they also send a very hard line governor, the guy who'd been the commander putting down the rebellion insurgency in Mesopotamia. They send him to become the governor of Judea to make sure that any rebels there and there may have been some riots there. Make sure that's snuffed out as well.

[Host 2]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Host 1]

The way you paint the Jewish people in this story, you know, it's. They were constant thorn in the Roman side.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. But the Romans didn't hand. Didn't handle them well, didn't play it well. And I'm not sure there would have been a second revolt if not for Parthia. I insist that Parthia, ancient Iran is a big part of the story. And the fact that there's. The Jews have this unique diaspora that's there as well as in the Roman Empire is a big part of the story. And the fact that the Romans are obsessed with fighting Parthia, beat Parthia, that's kind of their thing.

[Host 2]

And, Barry, if we fast forward. Super. A very short, very long period of time almost to the present day, is it fair to say that Judea, which since has become Israel, yes, for the rest of known history, basically is just a part of the world that is controlled by some other bigger force. Changes hands all the time until you get to 1948.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes. I mean, there is a third major rebellion, the Bar Kokhba revolt in the 130s. And that too, I believe, has a Parthian connection, but that is defeated with great difficulty by the Romans. And then there are some other revolts later on and another Iranian conquest of Judea followed immediately by the. Almost immediately by the Arab conquest. Yes. It is fair to say that there are different empires that controlled Judea or What had been Judea, what was then the Romans renamed it as Palestine. And Palestine is controlled by one empire or another until the 20th century.

[Host 2]

And before we head to substack, where our audience will ask you their questions. Yes, is there anything at all from the ancient history of this land that might be worth people knowing in relation to today's ongoing conflict?

[Barry Strauss]

Sure. I mean, one thing is that the Jews are indigenous to Judea, to Palestine, to the land of Israel. It's not as if the Zionists threw a dart at the map and decided, we're going there. They went there because this was the Jewish ancestral land. Jewish prayers from antiquity to today talk about Jerusalem and talk about the land of Israel. And Jewish pilgrims and Jewish settlers came back to Judea over the centuries again and again and again. It never stopped happening. They weren't the majority after. By the early Middle Ages, they're no longer the majority there, but they are a presence there. And they.

[Host 2]

Can I stress test this argument a little bit because I think Melanie Phillips made it the first time she was on the show, long before this latest of the conflict. Is that not a little bit like me turning up in Africa and going, well, my ancestors are from here. Give me some land?

[Barry Strauss]

No, because, I mean, it's because they're always there. You know, there's always Jews living there. They're always Jewish pilgrims whose ambition in life is to settle in the Holy Land and ancestors in Africa. I mean, no, I mean, that's a, that's a paleontological, anthropological, biological fact.

[Host 2]

I was being, you know, ridiculous. But okay, I mean, maybe a different way of looking at it is, let's say a bunch of Native Americans had fled North America at the time of Columbus, right. And then they come back and carve out a, a state for themselves in the middle of the United States and say, actually, we've always lived here. This is our land. We deserve to be. Look at our holy scriptures, you know,

[Barry Strauss]

but imagine that the United. That's a good analogy. But imagine that the United States wasn't the United States. Imagine that the United States was the tool of empires over history. And they're just different people marching through. There's no independent country here. And Native Americans who are living elsewhere now want to come back and re. Establish themselves in this new, a new environment when new states are going to be created out of old states. They would have a point. I think they would have a point. They would have an argument about that. And of course, by treaty, Native Americans have rights in the United States that they're denied in New York State, where I come from, New York State has ignored various treaties that it signed earlier on in American history about Native American rights. So it's not a totally false analogy.

[Host 2]

So, first point, Jews are indigenous.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Anything else?

[Barry Strauss]

Yes, Jews are disputatious. And disunity. Disunity is a problem in Israel today, but it's an ancient problem as well. And many people in Israel have looked back to this period and said, look what happened there with our disunity. There's only so far. Yes, we can disagree politically, but there's a danger of going too far today. I mean, another thing is if you look at the geographical location of Israel, for better or worse or worse, it's in the center of things. And, you know, obviously the United States is the key ally of Israel today, but Israel cannot afford to only look west. It also has to look east. It has to pay attention to Iran. It has to pay attention to the Arab states around it. It has to pay attention to Turkey, who's becoming a very important player in this conflict. And it has also looked at its relationship with India is very important as well. And with China, important. Maybe not so salutary for Israel right now, but it looks in both directions.

[Host 1]

And as you tell the story, and I'm thinking about Israel and I think about the story of Jerusalem and Judea, and particularly with the way, the fall of Jerusalem.

[Barry Strauss]

Yes.

[Host 1]

It makes me think about, you know, if you want to maintain Israel, the price of that is eternal vigilance.

[Barry Strauss]

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. The price of that is eternal vigilance. I mean, if you go to Israel today, you will see that it's a society in which the military and military life is infinitely more important than it is in your standard Western democracy. It's not different. One other point that I want to make about that's important for today is the role of religion. Religion can play a very salutary role. And I personally think faith is an important part of people's lives, but it can also play a not so salutary role. And while there were rebels who were pragmatists and who were serious about getting help from Parthia, there are others who allowed their religious beliefs to get the better of them and who had ideas that simply were not practical and couldn't work. And we see that in the region today as well. We see pragmatists, but we also see people on both sides who are letting their religious ideas get the better of them.

[Host 1]

And maybe if Israel wants to be successful, it needs a Stalin, a Stalin?

[Barry Strauss]

I hope not. No, I don't think. I don't think it needs a Stalin.

[Host 2]

I was gonna collect that in context. It's a metaphorical reference to something we discussed earlier in the episode. Barry, if people have watched this for the first time as an interview with you, they'll now know why we're such big fans of yours. You're a brilliant historian, fantastic writer. Of course, everyone should get Jews versus Roman and read it. It's also available as an audiobook before we head over to Substack and ask you questions from our audience, which only they get to see. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we really should be?

[Barry Strauss]

Oh, what's the one thing we're not talking about? All my other books you've written 10. Yeah, I mean, how. How they are. If you want to know more about the Roman empire, my book 10 Caesars, I think, is a great introduction to it, but also the war that made the Roman Empire. If you want to know about Cleopatra and Mark Antony and Octavian, that's the place to get the story. And I think it's fantastically relevant to warfare today. So read all my books, folks.

[Host 2]

Of course. And if people haven't seen our episode with you about the fall of the Roman Empire, it's magnificent. Thank you, Barry. Thanks for being here. Head on over to substack triggerpod.co.uk, where we're going to ask Barry your questions.

[Host 1]

Don't forget to click the link in the description of this episode to grab the special CyberGhost VPN discount. It's completely risk free, so check it out today.

[Host 2]

It's a loaded question.

[Barry Strauss]

Sure.

[Host 2]

It says, how is it that both Christianity and Islam recognize that Jews were given the land of Israel by God? God, but then deny their indigenous claims. With VRBoCare.

[Barry Strauss]

Help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists, so support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.