Podcast Summary: The Real History of Football – Jonathan Wilson

TRIGGERnometry with Konstantin Kisin & Francis Foster
Date: December 28, 2025
Guest: Jonathan Wilson, football historian and author

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Konstantin Kisin and Francis Foster delve into the origins, growth, and global impact of football (soccer) with renowned football historian Jonathan Wilson. Their rich discussion spans the sport’s emergence in 19th-century England, its global proliferation via British imperialism, the social forces shaping its culture and violence, the evolution toward the modern, money-driven game, and football’s enduring role as a mirror and amplifier of political and cultural identity worldwide.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Did Football Become the World's Game?

• Simplicity and Accessibility ([02:37]):
  • Football’s minimal requirements—“you can use a stone or some rags you tie together”—make it universally playable.
  • Unlike cricket or rugby, “you don’t really need any kind of pitch.”
  • The game's simplicity “made it so popular as to why it’s spread in the way it did.”
• British Empire’s Role ([03:28], [05:44]):
  • Spread primarily through British public school alumni, missionaries, railway workers, engineers, and businesspeople abroad.
  • Football was promoted as a means of instilling “manliness,” making it socially and politically useful for the British elite.
  • Early football clubs across the world often began in British communities, subsequently adopted by locals.

2. Football vs. Other Former Colonies’ Sports

• Why Not the US or Canada? ([07:33]-[13:30]):
  • Geographic size hindered creation of a national league; the sport remained regionally isolated.
  • US universities prioritized rugby (which later evolved into American football).
  • Cultural resistance: Football perceived as “alien”; ethnic associations limited its mainstream penetration.
  • “It’s seen as, oh, that’s an Irish game, it's not an American game,” impacting its assimilation.
  • Other cases: Harsh winters, established dominance of baseball, and absence of consistent investment further limited football’s spread.

3. Working-Class Adoption and the Game's 'Explosion'

• Transition to Mass Popularity ([13:56]):
  • The FA Cup (est. 1872) drove mass engagement.
  • Working-class adoption in the 1880s and onward: Factory workers, miners, and shipyard laborers filled the stands.
  • Saturday afternoons off (thanks to the Factories Act): “You finish work at the shipyard or in the mine… let’s go and watch the football.”
  • Business owners swiftly recognized football’s commercial potential—early powerhouse clubs like Sunderland and Everton were “working class clubs” heavily supported by local industries.

4. The Culture of Violence and Fandom

• Early Violence Was Always Part of Football ([19:16]):
  • “Anywhere where you get a big mass of people who are all emotionally invested… there is the potential for violence.”
  • Notable example: Newcastle–Sunderland, 1905, where “a police horse got stabbed amidst rioting.”
• Modern Hooliganism—A New Development ([21:03]):
  • Organized, often youth-driven hooliganism took root in the 1960s, peaking in the 1980s.
  • Recent decline attributed more to “older crowds” and rising ticket prices than policing or CCTV.
• Football as Identity ([24:55]):
  • Clubs provide powerful identities, especially in “post-industrial northern British cities.”
    • Quote: “The football club provides an identity for people who otherwise lack one. And I would include myself in that.” (Jonathan Wilson, [24:55])
  • Clubs became flags for both destructive and constructive group actions: “How many people doing the rioting wore football shirts? How many doing the cleanup wore football shirts?”
• Political and Criminal Co-opting of Fan Groups ([27:02]):
  • In South America and the Balkans, football ‘ultras’ became tools for organized crime and political movements.
  • E.g., Yugoslav fan groups became actual militias during the civil war.

5. Race, Politics, and Fan Behavior

• Racism on the Terraces ([29:13]):
  • The 1980s saw organized racist groups—the National Front at clubs like Millwall, West Ham, and Chelsea.
  • Modern incidents tend to be “more ad hoc”—spontaneous abuse rather than orchestrated political campaigns.
• Ultras' Influence in Italy and Argentina ([31:24], [32:34]):
  • Italian clubs’ ultras openly express far-right (Lazio) or far-left (Livorno) politics.
  • Ultras wield direct influence over clubs, sometimes demanding meetings with players/captains.
  • Example: Marcelo Bielsa threatened visiting ultras with a hand grenade to keep them away from his house! ([33:21])

6. Money, Inequality, and Modernity

• From Working-Class Wage to Millionaire Players ([35:00]):
  • The maximum player wage ended in 1963 (£20/week).
  • TV deals, especially since the 1990s, multiplied the money in the game.
  • Big-money club owners (e.g., oligarchs, state investment) have revolutionized and distorted club economics.
• American Sports’ Model vs. European Football ([41:04]):
  • American sports (drafts, salary caps) promote parity: “You do not get these decade long periods of domination by one or two teams.”
  • Football’s open pyramid system creates unique stories and “explosions of emotion”—where underdogs can beat giants.
  • Quote: “The explosion of emotion when you score is way greater then if it’s finishing 110–108. …If it finishes 1-0, that’s an incredibly exciting moment.” (Jonathan Wilson, [41:04])
• The ‘Soap Opera’ of the Premier League ([49:10], [52:01]):
  • Footballers (Messi, Ronaldo) are among the world’s most recognizable figures.
  • The Premier League is “the world’s soap opera,” especially in Africa and Asia where it dominates TV screens and social life.

7. National Styles and Stereotypes—Why Are Argentinians “Dirty”?

• Culture of the Street Footballer (El Pibe, [55:55]):
  • Argentinian football identity is shaped by romanticized figures like the pibe (street urchin) and the gaucho—virtuoso but fiercely self-reliant.
  • Physicality and “cynicism” arise in response to defeats and national crises, producing extremes of beauty (“Menottismo”) and ruthlessness (“Bilardismo”).
  • Maradona’s goals against England in 1986 symbolized “the gaucho’s revenge” for the loss of traditional Argentine identity to British modernity.

8. Football and Politics—World Cup as Soft/Hard Power

• World Cup as Geopolitics ([67:18] onward):
  • From Uruguay (1930) to Mussolini (Italy 1934) to Qatar and Russia, football is leveraged for national prestige and propaganda.
  • Mussolini’s Coppa del Duce and staging/merchandise strategies are early templates for sportswashing.
  • The true benefit for Qatar and Russia was “hosting the tournament, putting on a good show, showing they're part of this sort of international community.”
  • FIFA leaders wield global influence, “always there” in proximity to the world’s most powerful politicians.

9. Corruption—On and Off the Field

• On-Field Integrity ([74:25]):
  • High-level match-fixing is rare: “Players are paid so much… It’s in nobody’s interests for it to be fixed at the top level because the betting companies make huge amounts of money...”
  • Lower-league and obscure international fixtures are more vulnerable, due to smaller payouts and lower scrutiny.
  • There have been recent suspicions around some international fixtures, e.g., a “last 16 game in 2006…” (Jonathan refuses to specify.)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Jonathan Wilson (on Identity):
  “The football club provides an identity for people who otherwise lack one. And I would include myself in that.” ([24:55])

• On Premier League as cultural glue:
  “The Premier League is now the world soap opera.” ([52:01])

• On why football is more emotional than other sports:
  “The explosion of emotion when you score is way greater then if it's finishing 110–108… If it finishes 1-0, that's an incredibly exciting moment.” ([41:04])

• On Argentinian football:
  “Argentinian football identity is shaped by romanticized figures like the pibe (street urchin) and the gaucho—virtuoso but fiercely self-reliant.” ([55:55])

• On corruption and betting:
  “If they get the slightest hint of unusual betting patterns, they raise a red flag… four bets worth a total of £1,200 was enough to trigger an investigation.” ([74:25])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:37] – Why football is so accessible
• [05:44] – The British Empire spreads football
• [07:33] – Why football didn’t take in USA/Canada
• [13:56] – The working-class football boom & FA Cup
• [19:16] – Early football violence & hooliganism
• [21:03] – Rise and fall of organized hooliganism
• [24:55] – Football as identity for cities
• [29:13] – Discussion of racism, politicization of fan groups
• [31:24] – Ultras and politics in Italy and Argentina
• [35:00] – The money revolution: maximum wage to today
• [41:04] – Football vs. American sports, meaning of fewer goals
• [46:27] – English fan culture vs. American fan culture
• [49:10] – Global celebrity: footballers surpass rock stars & actors
• [52:01] – Premier League as “the world’s soap opera”
• [53:51] – The World Cup as ritualized international combat
• [55:55] – Argentinian football culture and Maradona
• [61:55] – Why top players are South American
• [67:18] – Sportswashing, FIFA, and the World Cup
• [74:25] – Can top-level football matches be fixed?
• [79:14] – Jonathan’s unexpected topic: British detective dramas!

Noteworthy Anecdotes

• The Hand Grenade Coach:

  • Marcelo Bielsa, threatened by angry ultras, “picked up a hand grenade, put his teeth around the pins and sort of said, go away or else I'm pulling this out and we'll all die.” ([33:21])

• The Premier League in Ethiopia:

  • In a rural village, “something like 40% of the adult male population… are watching the Premier League on any given Saturday.” ([51:46])

• Argentinian Football and the Gaucho:

  • The heroism of Maradona was foretold decades before his rise: “49 years before Maradona makes his international debut, his coming is foretold.” ([55:55])

Final Thoughts

Jonathan Wilson’s breadth and depth as a football historian shine throughout the episode. The discussion elevates football from a mere pastime to a cultural, political, and economic phenomenon reflective of the societies that nurture and play it.
Whether analyzing the spread from empire, the nuances of fan violence, the roots of footballing identity in Argentina, or the power of the modern game as politics and soft power, Wilson demonstrates football is always more than 22 men kicking a ball—it’s the story of the world itself.

Further Resources

• Jonathan Wilson’s latest book: The Power and the Glory
• For more exclusive content: triggerpod.co.uk

This summary covers the full content of the episode, skipping ads and focusing on the detailed, lively, and informative conversation between the hosts and their guest.