“We Need Regime Change” - Elica Le Bon

Summary

Podcast Summary: “We Need Regime Change” - Elica Le Bon

TRIGGERnometry | April 5, 2026

Overview

In this intensely charged episode, hosts Konstantin Kisin (David), Francis Foster (Alex), and guest Elica Le Bon delve into the ongoing crises in Iran, exploring the prospects and obstacles to regime change in the country. The conversation weaves through the realities of Iranian uprisings, the brutality of the current regime, international responses, and the ideological battles shaping global perceptions. Elica, an Iranian-born activist and commentator, brings a passionate and unfiltered perspective on why regime change is needed, what it would take, and the narrative wars complicating the struggle for freedom in Iran.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Brutality of the Iranian Regime & The Limits of Uprisings

• Elica describes the scale and violence of recent regime crackdowns (01:17, 02:46):

  “Around January, we had this massacre...numbers that came back from the hospitals was about 36,000...tens of thousands at that point.”

• Iranians’ desperate call for help (01:17, 02:56):

  “We cannot fight this alone. These people are killing us with military grade weapons.”

• The existential nature of protest in Iran (09:00):

  “Everybody in Iran has been affected by this regime now. Somebody’s parents has been hanged, somebody’s children have been shot...when you tell people at that point, you know, to go into the streets to fight for their freedom...they might as well die fighting.”

2. Why War Alone Does Not Guarantee Regime Change

• On the efficacy of “decapitation strikes” and uprisings (06:03, 07:28):

  “I don’t think that there’s ever been a time where war by itself would effectuate regime change...It’s not going to be just the war in isolation. It’s going to be the war...then Reza Pahlavi calls the people into the streets, the regime is significantly weakened, there’s been defection within the ranks, and then the regime falls.”

• Lamenting a lack of strategy (20:58):

  “There is no plan here. There’s no grand strategy...We did Venezuela, now we can do this. It hasn’t been thought through.”

3. The Role of Reza Pahlavi and Defection

• Reza Pahlavi’s impact (06:03, 07:28):

  “When he called people out into the streets in January, they went out in their millions. When the Internet got shut down, his views went down in the millions.”

• Number of potential defectors (06:03):

  “There’s like 150,000 people within the ranks that are looking to defect to him.”

4. War Fatigue and Western Reluctance

• America’s hesitation framed by Iraq and Afghanistan (22:16):

  “The Americans have no stomach for regime change, especially after Iraq, especially what happened with Afghanistan.”

• Iran isn’t a failed state (22:36):

  “It’s not a failed state or it’s like a thousand years old nation state. You’re not...those regime changes...tried to impose an outside government...Iran, you have this really old kind of nation state that is unified.”

5. Ideological Entrenchment: Islamism vs. Socialism

• On the power of ideology in regime persistence (13:00):

  “This really speaks to how much ideology can really destroy nations...With socialism, I mean, it’s the worst ideology in human history...the same with Islamism.”

• True believers’ persistence vs. opportunists (13:35):

  “Whereas you look at, you know, some of the lads in charge of Iran...they really believe, they’re true believers.”

6. The Geopolitical Trap & Iran as a Regional Hegemon

• Strategic challenges in targeting IRGC weaponry (19:57):

  “Precision strikes are so incredible. Why can't they go for the weaponry they're using on the protesters?...The IRGC are still going to have guns at the end of the day.”

• Iran's economic leverage (15:47):

  “They've got control over oil, gas, fertilizer, helium, etc...they’ve got all the trump cards.”

• Nuclear stalemate and deterrence (39:57, 40:53):

  “Once you get nuclear weapons, they are a deterrent state...you want to stop the regime from getting nuclear weapons, short of successful regime change and boots on the ground.”

7. Public Perception, Media Narratives, and Radicalization

• On the Western left’s radicalization (44:17):

  “The more they're able to rewrite and invert these stories through war...the more they're radicalizing people towards this staunchly anti-Israel perspective. That...is starting to really hurt the Iranian people.”

• Scapegoat theory and the “Woke Theory of Everything” (60:18, 64:26):

  “I keep thinking about Renee Girard's scapegoat theory...I feel like we're seeing...people who...are now doing this scapegoating. But the difference is now instead of saying Jews, they say Israel." “Israel is the perfect...vehicle for expressing what is ultimately the anti Westernism.”

8. The Risks of “Half-Assing” Regime Change

• Partial measures create worst outcomes (11:45, 32:07):

  "I think what doesn't make sense is to half-ass these things...If they stop this war...that's when they do the most brutal crackdowns. That's when they start killing everybody and saying, you were a Zionist...So that's actually worst case scenario if they stop this war."

• Call for a comprehensive, multi-step approach (52:16):

  "Those are the three steps to regime change: War is one step, uprisings (possibly armed) is another, and defection is the other. If those two things are neglected, we’re not going to have regime change."

9. Inside Iran: Public Sentiment and Reality Check

• Claims of overwhelming anti-regime sentiment (23:46, 24:56):

  "No one's going to vote for an Islamist because we know the statistics...90% of people in Iran are against it."

• Skepticism from hosts; polling and diaspora views (25:06, 27:33):

  “I just think...who would want...this regime? Of course, you have a minority...but...They don't identify with Islamic extremism. It's not our cultural personality.”

10. Propaganda, Social Media, and the War of Perceptions

• Weaponization of identity politics and online trolling (50:37):

  “There’s so many bots on X now...it's the regime...every time I post...comments...you whore this, that...zero followers, zero post zero.”

• Personal threats and cross-over with Western influencers (51:25):

  “We got an email...they’d commissioned Mexican cartel to behead us for $250,000...DOJ determined it came from the Ministry of Intelligence in Iran. After Piers Morgan, Anna Kasparian had taken a clip of me and Goldie...she manipulates the clips and says...we were laughing at war.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments with Timestamps

• On Defiance and Desperation:
  “We need help. We cannot fight this alone. These people are killing us with military grade weapons.”
  — Elica (01:17)

• On Iran’s Political Reality:
  “There’s a possibility of a global recession. So...you can also be concerned about what’s happening without being radicalized in support of the regime.”
  — David (05:13)

• On “Half-Assing” Regime Change:
  “I just think, I think what doesn’t make sense is to half-ass these things.”
  — Elica (11:45)

• On American Reluctance:
  “The Americans have no stomach for regime change, especially after Iraq, especially after Afghanistan.”
  — Alex (22:16)

• On Iran’s Prospects for Democracy:
  “In Iran, you have this...old kind of nation state that is unified behind language, behind a flag, behind culture...we don’t want a foreign imposed government. This is not Iraq.”
  — Elica (22:36)

• On Perception Inversion:
  “You are romanticizing a terrorist regime just because of your hatred for Israel. Because if this really was a terrorist regime...then Israel being at war with it might be justified. And you can’t in any circumstance make Israel justified.”
  — Elica (44:17)

• On Western Political Narratives:
  “Israel is the perfect vehicle for expressing what is ultimately the anti Westernism. That’s what this is really about.”
  — David (64:17)

• On the Dangers of Ideological Subversion:
  “The way that bad faith actors use periods of vulnerability, such as war, to try and turn the public in their favor, using tactics of ideological subversion and propaganda...our tolerant societies are now being lost to intolerance because of that normalization of authoritarianism.”
  — Elica (69:17)

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Structure and Flow of the Episode

Part 1: Setting the Scene (01:17–05:13)

• The conversation opens with Elica recounting the massacre in Iran and the regime's violent repression.
• Discussion about the disconnect between Western perceptions of intervention and the reality on the ground for Iranians.

Part 2: Pathways to Regime Change (06:03–14:12)

• War, uprising, and defection are debated as necessary but incomplete elements for regime change.
• Reza Pahlavi’s symbolic and practical role is explored.
• Ideological forces keeping the regime in power are interrogated.

Part 3: Dilemmas of Intervention and Public Opinion (15:05–24:29)

• The hosts question the feasibility and morality of external regime change.
• Fear of “another Iraq/Afghanistan” looms large in Western discourse.
• Elica stresses the unique, non-failed-national character of Iran.

Part 4: Perception Wars and Scapegoat Theory (44:17–65:07)

• The impact of Western media, anti-Israel sentiment, and propaganda is discussed.
• The hosts and Elica analyze how Israel becomes a global scapegoat for various social ills.
• Anti-Western ideology and radicalization in the US and Europe is dissected.

Part 5: Final Reflections & Call for Awareness (69:17–)

• Elica warns against the normalization of authoritarianism via ideological subversion.
• The episode concludes with a sense of urgency and a call for a more cohesive and honest international approach to regime change in Iran.

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Timestamps for High-Impact Segments

• 01:17 – Elica describes calls for help inside Iran.
• 06:03 – Detailed breakdown of what’s needed for true regime change.
• 09:00 – The cost and mindset of protest in Iran.
• 13:00–15:19 – Ideological stubbornness and the nature of true believers in power.
• 19:33–20:58 – Strategic failures and the missing plan for regime change.
• 23:46–27:33 – Public sentiment in Iran and the limits of polling.
• 39:57–41:41 – Nuclear weapons, regional power, and limits of deterrence.
• 44:17–47:44 – Narrative inversion and Western radicalization hurting Iranian morale.
• 51:25 – Elica recounts being targeted by the Iranian regime and Western influencer complicity.
• 60:18–65:20 – Scapegoating, shadow projection, and woke ideology’s convergence with the Israel debate.
• 69:17 – Elica’s warning about ideological subversion and the normalization of authoritarianism.

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Conclusion

This episode is a challenging, multifaceted exploration of the Iranian crisis, regime durability, and the larger narrative wars engulfing the West and the Middle East. Elica Le Bon brings urgency, personal insight, and indignation to a debate often marred by external misunderstanding and ideological confusion. The hosts push back, clarify, and contextualize, resulting in a thoughtful but open-ended call for more honest, comprehensive engagement with both Iran’s struggle and the narratives shaping global reactions.

Transcript

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[Elika]

There were so many videos, there were so many just of this sort of like universal voice that was saying, we need help. We cannot fight this alone. These people are killing us with military grade weapons.

[David]

I'm worried that the administration and others have called for people to rise up only for them to be killed for nothing.

[Elika]

I think everybody understands and anticipates that they very well might not come home. But what else do you do? The war is one step. The uprisings, possibly armed uprisings, is another and defection is the other. And I think that those two things, if they're neglected, we're not going to have the regime change. And I think ultimately this is the time to do it. The worst case scenario is that the war ends and the regime remains in power. Would have been better that there was no war at all.

[David]

Elika, welcome back to the show.

[Elika]

Thank you for having me.

[David]

Every time we put out an episode where the guest is somewhat critical of the war in Iran, all the comments are like, you need to speak to an Iranian. So here you are for diversity purposes.

[Elika]

Diversity, oh my gosh. Or maybe Authority. Okay, hit me with the diversity.

[David]

She's here for authority, guys. It's going to be an interesting one. All right, so welcome back. Obviously, the subject is a serious one. Even though we're joking around, tell us, you know, what your take is on everything that's been going on.

[Elika]

I think my take is, you know, it's a very long take because this is something that has really built up, built up until the moment that we are right now. Obviously, if you were following what was happening in Iran around January, where we had this massacre on January 8th and 9th, where it's estimated, well, these numbers, you know, people want to war over these numbers, but the numbers that came back from the hospitals was about 36,000. And that was just each hospital in every city listing how many casualties they had. And that's not. That's not including the people who were just executed on the streets who never made it to the hospitals. So suffice it to say that we're talking about tens of thousands at that point. From my perspective and from the perspective of people inside Iran, we are always sort of hedging towards what, what's going on in there and what do they need from us, Right? Because that's the only role we play. They don't have Internet, they can't communicate with the outside world. So we want to know what is it that you want? So through that period of time, there were so many messages, there were so many videos, there was so many just of this sort of like universal voice that was saying, we need help, we need help. We cannot fight this alone. These people are killing us with military grade weapons. How do you defeat military grade weapons? And so that was the call for help. Now where things get tricky is that, okay, so then you, you have the US And Israel coming into this picture and people sort of give this sort of condescending attitude of, oh, you think that these people are just here to save you and save your country. Well, none of us ever said that, right? None of us ever believed that any nation was acting anything but in their own interest. And it really, that is the way that things are. Everybody understands that nations act in their own interests. But because of this backdrop of since October 7th, this radical anti Zionism, anti Israel, anti. Anti. Anti anti Western, which stems back to Soviet infiltration, right? We've had that conversation. I think it came to a point now where this war, which was supposed to be seen through our eyes as a rescue mission, perhaps through the US And Israel's eyes, as, you know, decapitation of an Enemy, whatever has now turned into something where people are being almost radicalized in support of the regime. And so it's getting really dark.

[David]

Well, I think there's probably some people are being radicalized and support the. But there's also, I mean, cards on the table. Francis and I recorded a conversation will go out a couple of days from now from, from when this goes out, where we are basically saying it doesn't look to us like any of the objectives any of us might have wanted to be achieved. That is Iran doesn't get nuclear weapons, I. E. The protesters who you are talking about get justice or have a regime that replaces the current regime that doesn't treat them the way that. Right. Regime change. I don't think that's going to happen. It's clearly not happening at the moment. And there's a possibility of a global recession. So you, you can also be concerned about what's happening without being radicalized in support of the regime.

[Elika]

Well, yeah, of course, those are two completely different things. There's obviously, you know, a well meaning sort of skepticism about what are the objectives of this war and when do we know if those objectives have been achieved. I think one of the main issues that's sort of, and it's something that I can't even get my head around is that I don't think that there's ever been a time where war by itself would effectuate regime change. There are other things that need to sort of unite, like, for example, uprisings, defections within the ranks. And the person that has mostly largely been responsible for that is the Crown Prince, Reza Pahlavi. So when he called people out into the streets in January, they went out in their millions. When the Internet got shut down, his views went down in the millions. So there was a strong evidence that there was a strong connection there. And so I think where this war has gone sort of been negligent is in not pulling in the other actors that would effectuate regime change. Right. Also, Reza Pahlavi, I think there's, I can't, I can't say the numbers for sure, but I think there's like 150,000 people within the ranks that are looking to defect to him.

[David]

And so what are you basing that on? How do we know that his team says that?

[Elika]

How do we know? I mean, I, I can only tell you what his team says, but what I can tell you is that, but

[David]

do you see what I'm getting now?

[Elika]

Right, but, but we have enough evidence of his support. Right? We have enough evidence of the people chanting his name in the streets. We have enough evidence of millions of people coming out when he calls them to come out. So that's, that's good enough that we know that there are a ton load of people inside of Iran who support him. But either way, it's not about. This isn't, this isn't making a case about who supports him, who doesn't. It's making a case that why aren't we taking the necessary steps towards regime change? It's not going to be just the war in isolation. It's going to be the war does what the war needs to do. Then Reza Pahlavi calls the people into the streets, the regime is significantly weakened, there's been defection within the ranks, and then the regime falls. So I think it's almost like we're doing step one, but if we're not going to do step two and three, then what's the point?

[David]

I mean, that's a fair point. And when we interviewed Ted Cruz, he talked about arming the protesters. But I'll be honest with you. Like, you know, I feel about the war in Ukraine very much the way you feel about Iran. It's personal to me. I have family involved in whatever. But I have never called for people in Russia to rise up against Vladimir Putin because I always knew that if they did that, they just get slaughtered and nothing good would come of it. And I'm, and, you know, as I was on Diary of a CEO a couple of months back, and he. When this whole conversation about Iran was starting, I think the protests were just happening. And I, I was kind of saying at the time, I'm really not certain that calling people into the streets is going to create a positive outcome here. And I'm worried that, that, I mean, the way things are going now, I don't see, I don't, I don't see this working well.

[Elika]

I mean, it really speaks to the brutality of the regime, right? It's because, like, when you think about 1979, when there were these uprisings in Iran, and the Shah just, he left because he was like, I don't want this type of bloodshed of what it would take to sustain this regime, right? And so now it's. That is the situation, this regime is so brutal that there really is no length, no ends that it will go to, to not suppress the uprisings. But at the same time, it's like they're going to die anyway, right? So that's the way that they look at, they look at it like they have Nothing left to live for. Everybody in Iran has been affected by this regime now. Somebody's parents has been hanged, somebody's children have been shot. You know, this isn't, this isn't a life for anybody. So when you tell people at that point, you know, to go into the streets to fight for their freedom, at that point, it's like, what, they might as well die fighting. That's the way that they see it. I think everybody understands and anticipates that they very well might not come home. But what else do you do? And then the only other option is, is outside help. And now outside help is like the worst thing that you could possibly do, because this is American imperialism and Israel's plan for great Greater Israel or greater Iran or whatever the hell it is. So it's like, it's like we're fighting a battle on so many fronts, and it's just. It's impossible.

[David]

Well, it's kind of what I'm saying. I'm not sure that this can get solved the way that people want and therefore encouraging more people to rise up against the regime. I take a point. Look, if I was living in an authoritarian country and I felt the regime was evil, I'd rise up against it. And look, it'd be up to me, do I get killed or not, whatever. But from outside, I'm worried The, the administration and others have called for people to rise up only for them to be killed for nothing.

[Elika]

But I think that it's kill. They're killed for nothing if, if there isn't. If everything isn't locked in place. Right. I think if you have the war which is, you know, decapitating the regime, if you have protesters who are coordinated in rising up, if they are armed, if there are defections, if there if. Because that point of defection almost always happens where it seems that the instability is at a tipping point, that it could go one way or the other. And then, then there's personal stakes. There's personal stakes where it's like, okay, this is going this way, so I'm gonna. This. How. How it's always been with regime change. Right. And we even saw with Syria, like it was 11 days. Nobody could have everybody said, oh, this brutal regime, decades long Assad regime, there's no way that this is coming down. But somehow it did.

[David]

I think after a brutal civil war that lasted God knows how long and killed hundreds of thousands of people. Do we want that for a run?

[Elika]

No, but that when, when it came down, it was in 11 days.

[David]

But. But you had to have the civil war first.

[Elika]

Yeah, I mean, we've, we've basically had. I mean, we've basically had the worst of it as far as I'm concerned. I just think, I think what doesn't make sense is to half. Half ass these things. That's what I think doesn't make sense. I don't think it makes sense to have a war and to not be sort of collaborating with, with people like Reza Pahlavi or, you know, collaborating in ways that can help make the protest successful. Maybe if it involves arming, I don't know, something that involves defection. I just think that this needs to be covered in much more, much a broad, much more broad way for it to work.

[Alex]

And also, look, nobody's ever really been honest about what it takes to turn a country that is authoritarian to a country which is a liberal western style democracy. For example, take Venezuela. My family have been involved in protests time and time and time again, going out on the streets demonstrating. But what we have in Venezuela is something called the colectivos, and they're essentially Chavez's or the regime's armed thugs. And they suppress. In order for you to gain freedom, you need to get rid of all the collectivos. In the Iranian case, it's the irgc.

[Elika]

And I think what this really speaks to is how much ideology can really destroy nations. Right. So you, you talk about socialist dictatorships, Islamistic dictatorships. In either case, these are people who are convinced to the death of them that their ideology is the right ideology, even in the face of, of, of contradictory evidence. Right. With socialism, I mean, it's the worst ideology in human history, basically the deadliest ideology in human history. And you see that these people are so totalized in their worldview that they are willing to live and die to maintain that system. The same with Islamism. Right.

[Alex]

I think to push back on what you're saying, Elika, I think Islamism is actually far worse. I take what happened in Venezuela with Delsey Rodriguez. Now, people talk about regime change, but Delsey was an integral part of Maduro's government. But you know, you talk about socialism and all the rest of it. She's not that ideological because she was happy to kick him to the curb and become leader herself because what she's really interested in is power and status and the money. Whereas you look at, you know, some of the lads in charge of Iran, you know, they're pretty. They really believe, you know, you know, they're true believers.

[Elika]

They are true believers. They are true believers. And that's why. That's why. And it, it really, to me speaks to how much. And I, I guess this is why I have such a hard time now in the world that we're in, where radicalization is happening, because it's like, I know the story of the other end of that so well. Right. Once that radicalization is entrenched, you can't convince, you can't push back on them. There's nothing you can do because in their minds they have this story. Right. This is my fight. This is my fight. And God wants me to fight this and to defeat the bad people, to bring the good things to the world. And it's like, you see what you're bringing to the world, you see, this is just death and destruction. Oh, but they're martyrs. They're martyrs for a greater cause. There's always some way to spin it in your mind. And so it's just, that's really what we're looking at. We're looking at an ideology that refuses to leave Iran. And it's like, how do you kill an ideology?

[Alex]

Well, if you look at history, the only way of doing it, if you look at Japan or Germany, is to essentially decimate the country, bring it to its knees, and then have a process of de. Radicalization, like we did with Germany.

[David]

And that's why I'm worried about this conflict, Elica, because we're not going to do that. Right. And no one's advocating for that. And that means, you know, some of the conversations we've had while we've been here, it's likely that you end up in a trap where you're not prepared to do the actual thing that you need to do because it's terrible. Like what we did to Germany and Japan was awful. You don't want to do that to Iran.

[Elika]

Right.

[David]

But that means you don't have a way of achieving your objectives.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[David]

You don't have a way of getting rid of the nuclear material. They've taken it, they've dispersed it. We don't know where it is. You're not going to get it with airstrikes. And now also the other thing is, they've got control over the, you know, a hell of a lot of oil, gas, fertilizer, helium, etc. And there are a lot of people are now saying, actually they've got all the trump cards.

[Elika]

I mean, I don't know, I feel like they've, they've had all the cards for the past 47 years. I just wonder where this goes. Do you know What? I mean, like at some point this regime has to fall. But when is it? Why? When it can't last forever.

[David]

Why?

[Elika]

Nothing lasts forever. Okay, sure, even the British Empire didn't last forever.

[David]

Oh, I'm very sad now.

[Elika]

And that pretty much owned the whole world.

[David]

But I, I, you see what I'm saying though? Like it could last another 50 years.

[Elika]

I think the, I think the way that these regimes typically end themselves is because, I mean, we just have to remember that these people aren't really exactly in their right minds. They're not reasonable people. And so when you think of like Hitler, for example, right, he was not reasonable. He was drunk on power. Eventually he was gonna, he was killing the Jews and nobody really did anything, Nobody cared, Holocaust, whatever. Finally, when he invades Poland, people are like, oh, this is a real threat. And then so comes the war. I think the, the, the thing about actors like this, like the regime is that they won't stop. They won't stop with the, you know, the October 7th and the massacres and the sort of, you know, imperialism out into the Middle east that draws these forever wars. They won't stop. And so my thing is that one of these days they're going to do something that's the last straw. They've already done something that's the last straw according to the United States. It's just that this last straw wasn't enough to go all the way. I just don't see. I think the reason that this regime has to fall, like every bad faith regime in history, is because it will eventually do something that invites the world wanting to attack it.

[David]

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[Alex]

Look, that very may very well be the case, but the problem is, if you look at it at a purely practical level, what we are doing and what we're talking about is simply not going to enact regime change. It just isn't. And that is the unfortunate situation.

[Elika]

A regime change can happen now if the circumstances are right. And so the question is, why aren't we aligning the circumstances to make it right? We have this window in time. We have this window in time where. Where we can get the Iranian people out into the streets, possibly arm them, possibly go for, you know, they're doing. The precision strikes are so incredible. Why can't they go for the weaponry that they're using on the protesters?

[David]

This is just assault rifles.

[Elika]

Well, can't they target that? No, they're targeting the booths. They're literally. They're targeting the booths where they're doing the checks.

[David]

I know, but you're not going to take out every single AK47 in Iran. It's not going to happen. And this is the thing. It's like the IRGC are still going to have guns at the end of the day.

[Elika]

Yeah. Well, maybe then it. Maybe then it involves arming the protesters. I don't know. Maybe involves arming the protesters, maybe involves more coordinated riots. You know, the funny thing is that this is literally America's specialty. Every time it's done, these coups and things like that, even 1953, that. That was exactly what they did. They coordinated protesters, they armed them. I actually don't know if they armed them, but they coordinated them. They. They made it a serious thing. And it was from that tension that regime change, Mossadegh fell, whatever. But they know how to do that. That's. I find it odd that there's no investment in that end of it, which is where the regime change happens. I think it's very odd. There's a part of me that wonders do you want regime change?

[David]

Well, this is kind of the problem here because as we talked in that conversation that's coming out shortly, we've talked to a lot of people, some of them work in the administration, some of them know things, don't want to go into the details how they know them. But there is no plan here. There's no grand strategy here from what we understand. I'm not saying we know, we're not experts in this, but that's what we're being told. There's no great strategy here. This is just like, oh, we did Venezuela, now we can do this. And, and what you're pointing out is the same thing that we are concerned about, which is it hasn't actually been thought through to that level or pre planned to that level, which is why you're not seeing the things that were promised or you'd want. You see what I'm saying?

[Elika]

Yeah. I don't know. I think that, I think that this whole thing needs to be revisited, shall we say?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Elika]

But I do think that, I do think that those are the three steps to regime change. It is. The war is one step, the uprisings, possibly armed uprisings, is another, and defection is the other. And I think that those two things, if they're neglected, we're not going to have the regime change. And I think ultimately this is the time to do it. If there is a window in time, it's now. And so I really don't understand why this, this isn't being coordinated in that way.

[Alex]

It's also political, Erica, in that the Americans have no stomach for regime change, especially after Iraq, especially what happened with Afghanistan.

[Elika]

Those are not the same.

[David]

They're not.

[Alex]

They're not.

[David]

This is, this is kind of worse in a way, though.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[David]

Because Iraq wasn't holding the world ransom economically. Iran can and is true.

[Elika]

But the fear that people have over regime change is that, you know, it's going to be another Iraq, it's going to be another Afghanistan, it's going to be another failed state. Well, it's not a failed state or it's like a thousand years old nation state. You're not. The. What those regime changes did was that they tried to impose an outside government and build, effectively build a state that didn't exist because those were new countries at the time as well. And so Iran, you have this like really old kind of a nation state that is unified behind language, behind a flag, behind culture, behind all of these things. You don't, we don't want a foreign imposed government that's not what this is not Iraq. We want.

[David]

Well, you do, though. You do want a foreign imposed government.

[Elika]

No, we don't want a foreign imposed government.

[David]

Well, if you cause regime change and then replace it with one of your puppets, which is what you want to happen.

[Elika]

No, that's not what we want to happen.

[David]

Okay, maybe I'm.

[Elika]

Is only a transitional leader. So this has been articulated so many times. I don't know why people don't get this. He's a transitional leader that comes into the country once the regime falls to facilitate moving the country into a democracy where people can vote for their own leader.

[David]

What if they vote for an Islamist regime?

[Elika]

Well, no one's going to vote for an Islamist because we know the statistics of what people favor.

[David]

Oh, okay. I, I actually don't. What are the statistics?

[Elika]

90% of people in Iran are against it.

[David]

Against the regime?

[Elika]

Against the regime.

[David]

Wait, how do we know that?

[Elika]

Because there's studies like the Gammon study, which is in, I think the Netherlands conducted, and it speaks to people inside Iran, obviously anonymously, and they collect data about their public sentiments. And they, they say that 90. Or is it 85% or 90%? There's 10% that support the regime. Still is a country of 90 million, still a lot.

[David]

And, and they have the guns. But your point about 90 is very powerful. I mean, we've had people on the show, Eamon Dean, who's a former Al Qaeda MI6 double agent, for example, he can't. He. I mean, he gave a very different assessment of it, which was like 25% people support the regime. 25 people. Percent hate the regime. To me for. I'll give you a similar example for Russia, which, which is easy for me to explain. So I am someone who's a fierce critic of the Russian regime in the way that you are a fierce critic of the Iranian regime. But I would not say that I know what percentage of people in Russia. Maybe you don't know because nobody does.

[Elika]

Yeah, but you can. You absolutely can have a fair assessment about the sentiments of a country. Through extensive polling over time and for the past 4, 46 decades, repeatedly, polls have shown that it's a very high percentage, almost 90% of Iranians who are against this regime. And it's. I just think it's just like, who would want, who would like this regime? It just, it's. You do have this minority, of course, you have a minority of extremists. But this is where it's like, you, you do not know Iranians. If you think that that's who the majority of Iranians are. They don't identify that way. They don't identify with Islamic extremism. It's not part of our culture. It's not part of our cultural personality. It's just, it's so, it's so obvious to us that when people ask these questions, it's like we even give you the statistics, right? We even give you the polls, but it's like people just believe what they want to believe. I don't know what to tell you. It's not a country that's 50% Islamist radicalist. It's just, it's not who the Iranian people.

[David]

Oh, sure, no, no, I'm certainly not saying that. But I, I again, example from my own experience, which sort of makes it easier for me to think about these things. The Soviet Union was deeply unpopular by the time it collapsed, but that doesn't mean that 90% of people living in the Soviet Union were opposed to the Soviet Union. I think, you know, if you took a poll in the Soviet Union around the time that it actually collapsed and there was regime change, there was still a shit ton of people who supported it. It just became weakened economically and morally and in other ways. But to me, when someone says 90% of people in a country agree on something, that to me, you may be right. I'm not disputing it. I'm just saying to me, that's a bit of an alarm bell because that seems. It's not an unprecedented.

[Elika]

It's not an alarm bell. It's a terrorist regime that everybody hates and has destroyed the country. It's brought it to ruin, to economic collapse. Every. Everything about them that they do, they take the money and they give it to proxies. They are so radicalized. They don't take care of the country. They kill people for protesting. The methods of torture are medieval. They hang people. Nobody likes this regime. I'm not saying that 90% of Iranians agree on other things. Iranians never agree on anything. It's actually disturbing how much they disagree. But I can. If you want to include the diaspora, 99% are against the regime, statistically.

[David]

Well, the diaspora, the people who left. Right. So that would make sense that they'd be against the regime.

[Elika]

So on average, you're Talking about about 95% of Iranians in this world at least agree on being against this regime. I've never even seen this type of, like, overwhelming evidence of people who support the regime. When I go online, I don't see anyone except the bots that support the regime. If they are people who support the regime, they're here in the West. Anna Kasparian and Chen Kuga. But where are all of these massive, you know, spokespersons for the regime?

[Alex]

Well, I mean, look, there are, there may be a lot of people in Iran who actually can't go online because there's been an Internet blackout.

[Elika]

Oh, they have Internet. The ones who support the regime have Internet.

[Alex]

Okay.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[Alex]

And also as well, look, I don't know, but how many people get radicalized at school?

[Elika]

Like, they don't get radicalized at school. It just doesn't work. I mean, yes they do. They have to go to school and they say, death to America, death to Israel. But it just doesn't work because they go home to their parents and their parents say, yeah, just say that. But you know, we're not like that. You know, they don't go home to radicalize parents. It's just this, the culture inside of Iran is very different. It's, it's a culture of tolerating this sort of infrastructure of extremism but also being outside of it because of you have a people who are, what's the word? Familiar? I don't know what the word is. It's like literate in this type of propaganda. And so you built, you build propaganda literacy the more you live under this regime. Right. And so it's just, it gets to a point where everybody understands it. Everybody understands the manipulation, the dishonesty, the lies, the danger. Everybody understands it. I'm not saying that there aren't the extremes. Of course there are the extremes. 10 of a 90 million, that's millions. I'm not good at math, but pretty sure that's millions. That's millions of people. So I'm not denying that those millions of people exist. It's just there's a huge, you know, disparity. And you even saw when some of these uprisings were happening, a couple company a couple of years ago, they started to throw the turbans off of the Millers heads when they were walking down the street. And you know, that was a little bit controversial. Some people said, you know, and others are the Iranians that, you know, fu. But there's like, there is a quite a strong divide there. They don't even like seeing them in

[Alex]

the streets because the concern is going back to America. So they have said, like for instance on our show, Ted Cruz said that I think it was by November, if the war, if the war, by the midterms, by the midterms, if the war was still carrying on by the midterms. They would have failed. Trump said at the very beginning, four weeks maximum. Now, we all know that Trump talks a lot of nonsense. There simply isn't the stomach, Elica, to carry out a prolonged campaign in order to get rid of the regime and the regime's goons and everything that is needed to keep the regime in place. Which is my concern, because what could actually happen is Trump turns around in a week, two weeks, three weeks, and goes, you know what? We've degraded their military capacity. We've bombed.

[Elika]

He's already said that. We've got new leaders.

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah, we've. Exactly. So we've destroyed the capacity to produce nuclear weapons. Tick, tick, tick. We've secured the Strait of Hormuz is now up to the Iranian people.

[Elika]

Rah, rah, rah.

[Alex]

Cuba next. That could very easily.

[Elika]

I mean, I think that's pretty much happened already. Yeah, he's already said that there's a regime change because everyone there is a new leader.

[David]

Right. So this is kind of our concern. And look, I know we're pushing back on a lot of stuff you're saying. I'm going to sound like our mutual friend who we all admire, Dave Smith here. Like, I really hope what we are saying is wrong.

[Elika]

No, I don't.

[David]

And we are rooting for the Iranian people to be free of the tyranny of the Islamic regime, but we're just really seriously concerned at this point that there is no great plan. And given some of the ways that we, because of the conversations we've had, understand the way this can escalate. We're just very concerned that basically what is likely to happen is Trump is going to pretend that he got this big victory, but actually what he's going to do is cut and run. And I don't think the Iranian people are going to be better. Better off. I don't think the nuclear material is going to be eliminated. So the one thing you could say is, well, you flattened the missile program, you've destroyed the military industrial complex, you've set them back 10 years. Let's say, you know, maybe, you know, some people will take that, I guess. Yeah, you probably wouldn't.

[Elika]

No, I. I think. I think what they've said inside Iran repeatedly is that the worst case scenario is that the war ends and the regime remains in power. Would have been better that there was no war at all, because after that, that's when they do the. Their most brutal crackdowns. That's when they start killing everybody and Saying, you were a Zionist, you were a Zionist, you were a Zionist. People who were just filming outside of their windows, whatever. So that's actually worst case scenario if they stop this war. War. But you know, you, you can't deny how much public sentiment has shifted the direction of the war as well, because it's considered generally a very unpopular war. And I think that I, and this is why, I think this is largely because of this backdrop of what the conversations that have been had in the Middle east over the past three years, especially the very, very, very, very, very anti Israel view of things which has sort of driven this conversation towards. Okay, yeah, some people are extreme and they're going to say, oh, the regime are the good guys. But some people, the more like Dave Smiths of the world are going to say, well, these people are not really bothering us. You know, these people haven't done anything wrong. They're just a regular government, just, just like my government and your government. And isn't America a terrorist government too? And that sort of really manipulates public perception in a way that people don't, are not willing to get on board with a war that they just fundamentally don't think has any purpose or benefit to them, maybe not even in the long run. Right. I genuinely do not think that the public, the American public think that the Islamic regime is a threat, but because

[Alex]

it probably isn't a threat to them, really, if you look about it, if you look at it and you analyze it objectively now, it's far more of a threat to the uk. It's obviously a much greater threat to the Middle east and the stability of the Middle East. But to the average American living in Kansas City, why is Iran threatening them is a threat.

[Elika]

If the regime succeeds in its ambition, it's a threat.

[David]

Right, so what's, what is its ambition?

[Elika]

Well, its ambition is death to America, death to Israel. And right now its task is to remove Israel.

[David]

But that's kind of like my toddler saying, death to daddy.

[Elika]

It's not, it's not right. But there's, but there's action. There's not just intensive action.

[David]

So what is the threat that they pose to America? If so. Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Elika]

So the first stage is to remove Israel because these are the two oppressors, right, the oppressors of the west and the presses of the Middle East. So they've put in action all of the state, all of the stages necessary to remove Israel. They created a second IRGC called Hezbollah in Lebanon, which is closest border to Israel. Have been attacking Israel non stop ever since. Of course, Hamas, same thing. Houthis, all of this is part of the campaign to remove Israel. Now Israel is relying on the United States for aid to defeat these proxy groups, which another thing that people are like, why should we have to pay money to Israel? Because they don't understand that Israel is the one that is holding down the fort against these forces. Because let's say if those forces did win, let's say the United States pulls out its funding, let's say that they don't consider them allies anymore and Israel falls and the Islamic regime wins. Now the Islamic regime has exported its revolution out into the Middle East. Now you have the Islamic Republic of Lebanon, which already is a state within a state. It's just ready to go one way or the other. You have the Islamic Republic of Lebanon, you have the Islamic Republic of Palestine, you have the Islamic Republic of Yemen, the Islamic Republic of Syria, God knows where. And now you have these combined forces, right? With combined military technology, all of these things. You don't think at that point, point they're going to go for the second thing that they stated in their charter, which was, next we're going death to America. You don't think that's going to happen? So but then you could say, well, I just don't think that's ever going to happen because Israel will always be there and we, we're always going to support them. The public sentiment in this nation is that there should be no support for Israel, that Israel is the biggest terrorist state in the world. All of this stuff is just like a complete inversion. It's just total moral inversion of the situation. If you want to keep funding Israel for the rest of your life, then maybe the regime will never threaten you.

[Alex]

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[Elika]

Why they go around the side door. They didn't do October 7th. They went around the side door.

[Alex]

Yeah, but October 7th was done to Israel.

[David]

Right. In the same way that like the Taliban didn't do 9 11, but they let Al Qaeda.

[Elika]

Right.

[David]

You don't train and do other things. But then it was the Taliban that had the shit kicked out of them for.

[Elika]

Yeah. And now the Islamic regime is having the shit kicked out of them. So it's not, it's not going to be, you know, so direct.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Elika]

But you, you move indirectly. You say, oh, as Dave Smith said, they had no idea about October 7th.

[David]

Yeah, I don't think that's true.

[Alex]

No.

[David]

But I still don't know that if I were an American, I'd be sitting here quite quivering in my boots at the threat of Iran. I mean, some of the things that were said about this, you know, Iran is an imminent threat. I mean, come on. Really imminent? I, I don't think it is. Right.

[Elika]

It has a nuclear weapon. It's imminent.

[David]

To whom?

[Elika]

To anyone. If as a nuclear weapon, you don't think it's an imminent threat to America. No, it could do whatever it wants with it.

[David]

Okay, but is North Korea an imminent threat to the United States?

[Elika]

I don't know.

[David]

North Korea got nuclear weapons so that they could just be left alone to have their dictatorship in peace, effectively. Right. That's what they did. And this is the thing is like I, you know, I remember I was very curious and interested in the argument you made last time. When you want to show when you talked about the type of Islam that the Islamic regime practices in Iran and the fact that, you know, there's the, the MACD coming back and all of this eschatological stuff, which, you know, obviously that exists. Right. But from Iran's perspective, the much more rational reason to get nuclear weapons is to be a regional hegemon, or at least to protect itself from what it perceives as the threat.

[Elika]

Exactly the problem, isn't it? Because then you cannot, you cannot control their behavior going forward because they don't want. They're a deterrent state.

[David]

Yeah.

[Elika]

Once you get nuclear weapons, there are deterrent state. So, yeah, you can march straight into Lebanon. Who's going to stop you? You can march straight into Gaza, you can go do whatever you want with Israel. Who's going to stop you? That's the whole problem.

[David]

Well, Israel has nuclear weapons, so who's going to stop you is Israel.

[Elika]

So what, are we going to have a nuclear war?

[David]

No, you. Well, historically speaking, nuclear weapons appear to actually create peace stalemate.

[Elika]

Yeah, yeah.

[David]

This is not me advocating for us to let the Iranians get nuclear weapons. My concern is, if I'm being honest, as I understand the situation on the ground is like, other than negotiations, which I don't think are going to work long term either, but they might work short term, there's actually no way of stopping the regime from getting nuclear weapons short of successful regime change and boots on the ground.

[Elika]

That's why we need a regime change. And that's why everything else, no matter how long you go down the rabbit hole, is just kicking the can down the road. It just makes no sense. We want to get into this situation where both the regime and Israel have nuclear weapons. But the regime, this is the difference of what's in whose charter. Right. In their charter, it's that they must eliminate Israel. So whether that escalates into a nuclear war actually becomes deterrent because they both have nuclear weapons or they just keep. I mean, what, where does this end? And isn't the US Always going to be implicated in that war when it comes to the regime and Israel? So I just. This is just dragging the October 7th nightmare on and on and on and on and on. I just think that none of this is going to make any sense unless there is a regime change.

[Alex]

The problem is, is, look, I don't think there is going to be a regime change simply because the Americans don't want it. I think the Israelis do want it.

[David]

I don't know that Americans don't want it. I just don't think they're doing, as you say, they're doing the things to achieve it.

[Alex]

Yeah. So therefore you don't want it. If you're not prepared to do the things to achieve it, then you don't want it.

[Elika]

If he wanted to, he would.

[Alex]

Yeah, exact. Exactly.

[David]

I don't get that reference. But it makes sense.

[Elika]

You don't get that reference. Oh, you didn't get it either?

[Alex]

Yeah, I got it.

[David]

What's the reference?

[Elika]

It's like with men, like when they don't call you or whatever. If he wanted to, he would.

[David]

I've been married for far too long to understand anything.

[Alex]

So the Americans effectively don't want it. You look at the Israelis. The Israelis do want it, but the problem is they can't.

[Elika]

The Iranian people definitely want it.

[Alex]

Absolutely. But the Israelis can't do it without the Americans because the Americans are the senior partner.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[Alex]

And also, the more Israel goes down this path, the more it loses support in the United States.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[Alex]

You already see that there is a massive chasm between the way people of the ages 40 and over view Israel and the way people.

[Elika]

That's because of all of this radicalization, which I genuinely have serious concerns about where this ends. You know, like, this is, this is such, you know, it's such. It's, it's such Soviet disinformation, all of it. It's like this whole idea that, you know, the west is the source of all evil and Israel and the US Reflect that greatest evil. And this like, sort of perception hijack over time. Right. And I think especially after October 7, it has been most, most deeply entrenched such that you can you literally look at all of these situations and the way that they see it is, is the total opposite to the reality. And the fact is that the more that there are these wars, the more they see the, the, the bad guys as the good guys. Right. Because they're constantly circling back to the same conclusion, which is that Israel is the source of all evil in the world. And to, you know, to, to make that true, to make that conclusion true, everybody else has to be good. Everything that Israel is fighting has to be good or misunderstood. But. Or just reacting to Western imperialism. Right. That's always the story. All of these people are always just reacting to western imperialism. For 1400 years, they were reacting to Western imperialism. Right. Zero agency. So what I fear happens over time is that the more they're able to rewrite and invert these stories through war, because it's always happening through war. It happened through The Gaza war, it's happening through the Iran war. The more they're radicalizing people towards this really staunchly anti Israel, like, deranged anti Israel perspective. And that, oddly enough, is starting to really hurt the Iranian people because of how much they need to make the Iran, the Islamic regime, faultless by extension. So now you're seeing, like, for example, they hanged three men, a young wrestler, right? And you see these people, leftists, taking to the Internet saying, he murdered a bas. Murdered an IRGC officer. Here's the video. And it's like some black grainy shadow that doesn't show anything. And they're literally just regurgitating state propaganda. And it's like, look at what you're doing. You. You are romanticizing a terrorist regime just because of your hatred for Israel. Because if this really was a terrorist regime and you had to accept that, then you would have to also accept that Israel being at war with it might be justified. And you can't in any circumstance make Israel justified. So. So to make Israel never justified, the regime can never do any wrong. And so now this is directly affecting us and our. Our morale because we're experiencing this where we're seeing, you know, thousands and thousands of people being killed. And you see people going on Piers Morgan saying, we think that Ayatollah was a very courageous man because at least he didn't capitulate to the Israelis. It's like, what planet are you on who says that? It's like saying, Hitler was a very courageous man. And so it's. This is such a time of extreme distortion and moral inversion. And I think my fear at the same time is like, you have a physical war, you have a narrative war, but where does this narrative war go? Where does that end?

[David]

Well, this is part of Francis, and I's concerned about all of this because I think you described it very well, what's happening. And I think there's been a huge amount of propaganda and brainwashing and whatever. And also, though, I think we also have to be honest, and we've talked to lots of people off camera and on camera on this trip, a lot of people who are not anti Israel and who are not anti Semitic and all the things that people like to say whenever anyone has a critique of Israel's foreign policy. Can we get some more water?

[Elika]

Yes, please.

[David]

That was so sweet, the way you were like, there seems to be no water in this cup.

[Elika]

Oh, no. That's apparently how you're supposed to make. I didn't even think of it. But that's how you're supposed to make men do things.

[David]

Oh, totally.

[Alex]

Really?

[Elika]

You just identify a problem 100% and

[David]

you go, oh, something's missing here.

[Elika]

There's no water in my cup. And you did it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Elika]

It's beautiful. Yeah.

[Alex]

I like the fact that you pretend you didn't know what you were doing.

[David]

She didn't pretend. She described exactly what she was doing.

[Alex]

I'm like, I'm just so innocent.

[Elika]

Oh, my God.

[Alex]

No water.

[David]

We will cut this bit out. I think.

[Elika]

I think it's good.

[David]

Oh, shall we keep it in? All right, cool. Well, she just manipulated me to get her some water.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[David]

Anyway, I guess the thing that I'm concerned about is I think there's also a lot of people who are not anti Israel, who are not anti Semitic, but who see that Israel and actually Saudi Arabia and the UAE as well, they have, as all countries do, their own agenda. And the agendas of those countries do not fully align with the agenda as they would perceive it of the United States. For the reason that we tried to talk about earlier, which is there are different levels of threat that are presented to those countries versus America.

[Alex]

Right.

[David]

And because of that, and this is where a lot of people have, like, a brain spasm where, I agree with you, the propaganda begins to take effect because they go, israel has tricked America. And how. How, yeah, what is the mechanism? And they start to make all this shit up about the super powerful Israel lobby, which I just don't. I don't think that's remotely true. I don't think President Trump can be, like, tricked into stuff like this. What he can be tricked by is, like, his own ego or his own political ambitions. These things might be very well possible. But I guess what I'm saying is there are more and more people now in America who feel that Israel has its own agenda that's different from America's and they want their government to be pursuing the interests of the American people.

[Elika]

That's fair.

[David]

Which is totally fair and totally reasonable. And my worry is as well, that one of the other things that starts to happen is whenever anyone expresses that point of view, there are far too many people online who instantly start calling them names and start saying the anti Israeli.

[Elika]

I mean, we get all the names. Everyone gets the names.

[David]

Everyone gets the names.

[Elika]

There's no. There's no option where you don't get the names anymore.

[David]

Sure, that's true. But if you want to radicalize normies against a particular view, just start calling them names for expressing a view. Do you see what I'm saying.

[Elika]

Yeah, I mean, I haven't, I haven't personally seen that. I haven't personally. Because those people, in my opinion, don't speak up too much. I haven't seen people I haven't seen really. I've seen some videos where someone's like, where I think I saw this video of a woman that she was like, this is not our war, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was actually got loads of likes. Every time I've seen people say stuff like that, it's like very much liked. All the comments are like, you're so right. This is so amazing. I've never seen somebody get backlash for saying that.

[David]

I mean, there is a lot of people now who are in favor of this war, calling anyone who disagrees with it. You know, I mean, you've seen the, you know, the micro penis discourse on Twitter.

[Alex]

It's one of the intellectual discussions of our time.

[David]

The Mark Levins of the world are going after the Megyn Kelly's of the world and it's all just devolved to like literally micropenis. She's got a micro penis. She's a massive. I mean, I just like, this is, I find it incredibly sad that actually this is where the level of the discussions got to.

[Alex]

And he's body shaming.

[David]

I think you can shame someone with a micro penis. I'm. I'm still on board with that. I'm.

[Alex]

I'm old school.

[David]

You can work, you can shame someone for.

[Elika]

You can.

[David]

Yeah, I think so.

[Elika]

But how would you know?

[David]

I mean, that's a good question. How does Megyn Kelly know Mark Levin has a micro penis?

[Elika]

Yeah, the shame has to be at least accurate.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elika]

Otherwise it won't live in the body. And so what have you really achieved?

[Alex]

That's a fair point. You might have mpe micro penis energy.

[David]

All right, well, I'm glad this episode has taken this time.

[Elika]

Yeah, this is great stuff. No, but I think that, I think this is all. This is all. You know, sometimes when I just look at the Internet and I try not to these days because it's so bad and it's getting worse. Especially there's so many bots on X now and I don't know if they've just targeted my account. I think it's. The regime is specifically targeting my account because every time I post it's just like so many comments that are just like, you whore this, that. And it's always like zero. Zero followers, zero post zero. Oh, and I'm sure you heard about the whole Beheading thing.

[David]

The beheading thing.

[Elika]

The beheading thing. No, you didn't. You guys didn't hear about that?

[Alex]

No, no.

[Elika]

So Goldie and I do. You know Goldie.

[David]

Goldie.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[Alex]

All right.

[David]

Okay.

[Elika]

We got an email saying from this hacker group saying that they'd commissioned Mexican cartel to behead us for $250,000. So I obviously went to the FBI and they opened the investigation. DOJ determined that it came from the Ministry of Intelligence in Iran.

[David]

Wow.

[Elika]

Yeah. So. And that was. And just get this, because it gets worse. After I had been on a. On an episode of Piers Morgan, right? And Anna Kasparian had taken a clip of me and Goldie laughing at Cenk because he was going, israel's the to blame for 9, 11. Israel's to blame for Iraq. Israel. Like, it was just funny. Like, we were laughing. And then she manipulates the clips and takes our laughter and says essentially that we were laughing at war. And she calls us laughing hyenas. So the Ministry of Intelligence, in its email that it was going to be head me used Anaka Sparian's thing and said we were laughing like hyenas at war. Just quoted her word for word. And it's like, is. Is this. Oh, and then they have her in their telegram group chats. So that fast news, which is one of the state's media, they have her, they're promoting her, doing her like an anti Israel stuff within their group chats. And it's like. And they've also, you know, they've had Chenk Yuga on their Arab, which is their broadcasting channel, and of course, Tucker

[David]

Carlson, the Gray man himself.

[Elika]

And it's like, is. Is there not a point where people are going to see, like, how. How on God's green earth, these are people that are going out there saying, like, oh, we're pro American. You are literally being used by the enemy of. Of the United States. They agree with your talking points. They follow you and fangirl over you. And the FBI is concerned about me against you. Do you know what I mean? Like, you, you're not pro America. You've gone so far the other way. And it's. And this is this moral inversion that terrifies me because where does that go? Right? And I just, I don't think that people understand. Like, I don't. I don't know why, but I keep thinking about Nazi Germany because I get it now. Because I get that during that period of time, the build up, no matter what you said to these people, they would have Been like, what are you talking about? This isn't extreme. She. This person is just saying their opinion and that opinion is true. Like, there's, there would have been no way to get through to people. The more and more people were radicalized until something like that happened. And I just, it kind of just me puts me like, paralyzed in a way because I'm like, what do we do about this growing extremism? Which isn't extremism anymore because it is the sentiment of a lot of the country now.

[David]

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[Alex]

Well, the worry is you say you're worried about where it ends, right? I'm going to tell you where it ends. And we're already seeing it now, which is a growing rise of radical extremism and terrorist attacks. That's where it's, that's what we're seeing it. We've been here a matter of weeks. We saw a terrorist attack in Austin. We saw, happily, a supported terrorist attack on a synagogue in Michigan, which could have been horrific. A truck loaded with explosives. We saw a nail bomb attack happen in New York. And the more this war carries on, the more people get radicalized, radicalized, the more Iran starts to fund terrorism abroad, which I'm sure it will do at certain points, the more we're going to see this.

[Elika]

But this is exactly what the regime has been planning all along. The regime is planning all along to subvert the Western left. And now it's happened. No, I don't know, I don't know how it happened to the Western right. Who would just. We're pro America. Apparently not. I don't know how you get Tucker Carlson and the Islamic regime. I genuinely don't.

[David]

I wrote a whole article about it.

[Elika]

Oh, you did? I didn't want to make you sneeze again. I heard, I heard that inhalation. I heard that inhalation.

[David]

I wrote a whole article about a long time ago, Tucker Carson and the Woke. Right. And I kind of lay out what, what I think is going on. And I mean, that point that you make, Alec, is actually really important and I totally agree with it, which is, I think there is a, an honest critique of this war, for example, to be made, of course, and we've made it today.

[Elika]

I mean, it's war.

[David]

But there's a difference between that and where people are getting to now, where Tucker Carson is literally on camera saying, oh, you know, Sharia law has made all these Arab countries brilliant. And you're going, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Elika]

What the fuck are you talking about? But you know what's so funny about even when I saw that was that he, he starts and he's like, yeah, our problem here is just, it's self hate. We, we hate the West. It's like, you're so close, but you're the one that's doing.

[David]

Which is actually the point that I actually wrote in my article, which is a lot of people on the. Well, not a lot. Some people on the right have become so disillusioned with where the west was going, particularly during the woke period, they, they started to almost hate the west, but in a different way. So the left hates the west for its ideals, whereas this section of the right hates the west for failing to live up to its ideals. And they kind of became radicalized this way. But you would have, think, you would think that. And the funny thing is the reason that conversation came up is all the evidence shows that the American right considers radical Islam to be the number one problem.

[Elika]

Not anymore.

[David]

Well, the bulk of it still does, but some of these people who've taken trips to various parts of the Middle east, they are now trying to make that not the argument. And by the way, as three people who, who come from Britain, I mean, we can tell you how this is going to go.

[Elika]

Yeah, absolutely.

[David]

And, and, and, and for, for someone like Tucker who keeps slagging off Britain for mistakes that it's made to be fair in terms of immigration policy and other things, to then not see that that is going to also happen in America, I just. I don't get it.

[Elika]

I think, yeah, there's, there's so many moving parts here. I think, you know, we have the part of like, you know, the Soviet ideological subversion where it sort of comes into the US in the 60s and 70s and starts to sort of radicalize people towards this Marxist slant. And unfortunately, there was that fusing of the social justice movement at the time. Right. The civil rights movement, which was obviously a legitimate movement, but once it becomes fused with Marxism, it's kind of like inextricably intertwined. And so that's why we have this Marxist foundation in modern social justice, which is inherently anti Western, it is anti west, anti imperialism, because this is the root of all evil. Well, imagine if they saw what the Soviets did, right. Imagine if they knew what Communism did, then they would know that there's a very different route of evil. And then I think another thing which is like, really showing up for me right now, that sounded so therapy. Like another thing that's showing up for me right now, but is I keep thinking about Renee Girard's scapegoat theory. I don't know if you know it, tell everybody. Okay, so. And mixed in, I sort of like have this hybrid model with Carl Young's Shadow. But essentially, Renee Gerard talked about something called mimetic rivalry, where two people, two sides would rival each other because they want the same thing. And the wanting of that same thing is what assigns value to it. Like two kids wanting the same toy. Oh, if you want it, I want it. So this kind of, like, mimetic rivalry is something that exists, you know, maybe between political sides like the left and the right, east and the west, whatever. So what he talks about when he talks about scapegoat theory, he basically explains that these two sides that are rivaling each other, let's say the left and the right in the United States, they eventually reach a point where, where there's imminent violence. It's like there's nothing that can happen here except one of us has to kill the other. In that moment, what will happen is that they'll find a scapegoat and they will project all of their social problems onto this scapegoat, and they will eliminate that scapegoat and then feel or believe that all of their problems have been resolved. Obviously, this has happened numerous times. And Rene Girard actually create. Created this theory because of the Jews, like the Jews being the convenient scapegoat throughout history, throughout Nazi Germany, blah, blah, blah. And you know, then there's this other side of it where. So that's kind of like a macro kind of look at it. But I think there's another side of it that it's the same thing that's happening on an internal level. So when you think about these people who are so, so like these. Candace Owens Anarchist Barnes these people that it's like, it's like their life and soul to destroy Israel, it's very clear that there's something in them, some type of wound, some type of trauma, some time of pain that they are projecting outward to avoid confronting that whatever is in that shadow, right? And by eliminating that thing, you feel like you've eliminated that. That shadow within you. Right. So that's also Carl Young's theory, and it matches perfectly with Renee Girard's theory. And what I feel like we're seeing is people who have some degree of, like, really deep interpersonal problems and they've, they are now doing this whole scapegoat theory. But the difference is now instead of saying Jews, they say Israel. And you can really feel, you see it in these people's eyes. They genuinely believe that they will finally get peace or the world will finally have peace once Israel is abolished. And you know that it's a fallacy because, you know, all of the things that are around Israel that they continue to ignore, you know, that they continue to ignore this terrorist regime in Iran, isis, Hamas, Hezbollah. Oh, no, they're not that bad. You know, they continue to ignore the worst of it. And that in itself is kind of like an admission that what they're doing with Israel is some form of scapegoatism, which is both political, in my opinion, and personal.

[Alex]

They also feel that essentially Israel activates all of these different countries. And if you took Israel out of it, everything would calm down. It would be like turning just the hob off. And all of a sudden the Middle east would stop being this boiling pot of resentment and anger.

[Elika]

Killed all the Jews.

[Alex]

Yeah, well, yeah, Israel didn't exist. Well, they wouldn't even say that. They would just go, oh, we need to change what Israel is. And you actually drill down on what they mean by that. They can't Explain it. But basically what they, what they want is for the state no longer to exist. And then once it does, and we're, it's utopian thinking, we're going to reach this nirvana, which is obviously nonsense.

[Elika]

Yeah, well, it's, it's the idea that once the state stops existing, they will be absolved. Yeah, right. They will be absolved of all of that white guilt of Western imperialism. Like the original sin. Right. It's like this, Israel is the original sin of Western imperialism, colonialism and all of the, the things that they've ascribed to it, which also came from the Soviets, mind you. And it's this sort of spiritual renewal that they want to experience through it, which is just such a sort of leftist privileged luxury belief. You know, it's like I, I'm going to have spiritual renewal by dismantling the state of 9 million people, including Arabs and Muslims.

[David]

Well, Israel is, is the perfect, it fits very, very well into the woke Theory of Everything, because the narrative about

[Elika]

book title, the Woke Theory of Everything.

[David]

But if you think about it, what is the woke idea? What is the core of the woke ideology? The idea is that everything is best understood through oppressor and oppressed groups. There is a group that is oppressing everybody. There's a group that's oppressed within original Marxism that was about class and economics, obviously they updated it to race and ethnicity. So you've got these white people, the Israelis, they're white.

[Elika]

Yeah.

[David]

Oppressing the brown people who are also clearly oppressed because they're losing. Because that's, that's how you know who's oppressed.

[Elika]

Right.

[David]

And, and I've always said this is like, it's the, the teacher in the playground mentality where she hears some screaming, she turns up, there's a kid hitting the other kid. That's, that must be the kid. That's the bad kid.

[Elika]

Right?

[David]

What, whatever happened before that nobody pays any attention to. And so Israel.

[Elika]

I don't think teachers are allowed to hit.

[David]

No, no, the kids are hitting each other.

[Elika]

I glitched in the middle of it.

[David]

I thought I was explaining myself very well. Apparently not. What I mean is you are.

[Elika]

It was my, my fault.

[David]

Your fault. Okay, we'll go with that. So it, it fits very well with this mentality. And, and Israel is therefore the perfect vehicle for expressing what is ultimately the anti Westernism. That's what this is really about. Because they just see Israel as like the colonial outpost.

[Alex]

Yes.

[David]

And so the people who live here in L. A who've got that no one is illegal on stolen land. Side. Yeah, they don't leave their house. But they can say Israel should leave its house.

[Elika]

Right. Because the spiritual renewal has to come from afar.

[David]

Yeah, of course. Because you don't want to leave your nice house.

[Elika]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, and how far the moral inversion goes is that, you know, you say, while there would be peace in the Middle east if it wasn't for Israel, you know, activating all of these groups, that it's never. The responsibility is never on the other end. Like, can these groups stop trying to kill Israel and then everyone will be safe and free?

[Alex]

Because. No, but they would say. And I know because I've heard it and I've had the conversations with them, they would say that this is an uprising because they're oppressed. October 7th was an uprising. That's how they would see it in the other countries.

[Elika]

How could. What, how. What are you going to say about Lebanon? What are you going to say?

[Alex]

They're fighting. It's an uprising. That's what it is.

[Elika]

Well, then why can't we go to war with Iran then? Because we're. We're fighting a colonial.

[David]

No, because they're not colonialists. They're brown.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Elika]

They can't be. It's not possible.

[David]

Well, but, but that's. You laugh. That is how they think.

[Elika]

Yeah, I know. That's because it's still funny.

[David]

Because when they look at the Middle east, they don't know that it wasn't all Muslim before.

[Elika]

Yeah, no, they don't understand that.

[David]

So they don't understand that Muslims colonized all of that.

[Elika]

We were Zoroastrians, so we were colonized by Islamism.

[Alex]

Right. Yeah.

[Elika]

So why can't we say that this war is fighting a colonial empire?

[David]

Because they're Ayatollah's brown.

[Alex]

Yeah. And they've got.

[David]

That's literally what it is.

[Elika]

He's Jewish. He's actually Jewish.

[David]

Is he?

[Elika]

No, but we should.

[Alex]

Then they say, well, he deserves to be bomb.

[David]

That's quite a.

[Elika]

That's why I say we should say he's Jewish.

[Alex]

I think he might have a few. Or why. I think he might have a few issues.

[Elika]

I think we could make an argument for that.

[Alex]

And it's also, there's. There's the. America is the evil empire. As a result of them being the evil empire, everybody else is oppressed.

[Elika]

Nothing like, just like, nothing about it ever makes sense. You talk about the. You talk about Hezbollah, you talk about the Houthis, you talk about the regime. You're like, yeah, they're fighting oppression, but they are committing more oppression than anybody else.

[David]

Yeah, but they're. They're doing it for good, Elika.

[Elika]

They're doing oppression in their own lands for good.

[David]

Yes.

[Elika]

Okay. Yeah, because. To suppress the Mossad agents because they're brown.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[David]

And oppressed by evil Israel.

[Elika]

It's good.

[Alex]

We're agreeing. Finally.

[David]

Yeah, finally.

[Alex]

All of the.

[David]

All of the debates,

[Elika]

they win. We just. I think we have to go forward as leftists because we clearly see that that is the superior.

[David]

All right, well, for you. Well, fine. I'm gay and trans. We've done it.

[Alex]

I don't think we'd be accepted.

[David]

What do you mean? I self identify as a woman.

[Alex]

You self identify?

[David]

Yes. I think it's a good note to end the episode on Elika. What's the one thing we're not talking about that we should be?

[Elika]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Don't say ideological subversion. Should I say more?

[David]

Yes.

[Alex]

Yes.

[Elika]

Oh, okay. I thought that was the end of the episode.

[David]

So manipulative again, you know. So should I say more? She knows what she's doing as well.

[Elika]

You said the end of the episode. I thought it was like, boom, and then.

[Alex]

No, you've watched our episodes.

[David]

Come on, Alica, tell us more.

[Elika]

Okay. I think that what people aren't talking about enough or what people aren't seeing enough of is the way that bad faith actors use periods of vulnerability, such as war, to try and turn the public in their favor, using tactics of ideological subversion and propaganda, and how that, you know, radicalizes people, even people far, far away, people in the west, people in the United States. And that radicalization changes the nature, the fabrics of the society that we live in. And ultimately, what happens is that this sort of, you know, becomes like a Trojan horse of humanity where you keep saying that. You keep siding with these people who have subverted you, Right? You keep saying, these are the good guys or these are the people that we need to have some understanding for. And then that sort of, you know, you. You. You usher in authoritarianism into our societies through this Trojan horse of humanity. And so now authoritarianism, terrorism, all of those things start to become normalized when we see these terrorist attacks. We're like, well, I mean, this poor guy was probably, like, really just upset over something that happened. So we really have to have more understanding for it. And so our tolerant societies are now being lost to intolerance because of that normalization of authoritarianism, which is coming from this ideological subversion that these bad faith actors are doing to the Western world.

[David]

Nelika, thank you so much. Head on over to triggerpod.co.uk, where she's going to answer your questions.

[Alex]

The focus of Iranian female suffering is often on the birth of a nurse or the niqab. But what does life for an Iranian woman actually look like beyond that that we do not or fail to understand?

[Elika]

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[David]

They accept Discover.

[Elika]

Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so. Jennifer.

[David]

Oh yeah, huh? Discover is accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby, get with the times.

[Elika]

Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback, I think.

[Alex]

Tank Discover is accepted at 99% of

[David]

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