Podcast Host 2 (2:14)

How many postmodernists have a business that they run? Warren Smith, welcome to Trigonometry.

Warren (2:22)

Thank you for having me.

Podcast Host 2 (2:22)

Great to have you on, man. Been Enjoying a lot of your content before we get into opinions and debate and all that kind of stuff. Tell everybody your story. Cause your story is very interesting. Oh, you're surprised by this fact?

Warren (2:36)

Yeah. So I was teaching media content creation and a piece of content went viral. Opened a door for YouTube. I was like, oh, see how far this will will go. This is interesting. I knew there was a risk, but the it didn't outweigh the cost of not trying, if that makes sense. Caught up kind of in a way that I thought there was an 80% chance that the school given kind of skipped over this video went viral or we said. I knew they weren't happy with that. I thought there was like an 80% chance they just won't renew my contract. They did a slightly different move, got rid of me quickly. Midday kind of threw me into this weird limbo where now I have to focus on this. I was under 50,000 subscribers, wasn't financially viable. Scary time worked out. Here we are.

Podcast Host 2 (3:29)

So what was the school and what was the video?

Warren (3:33)

So I don't want to dox the school because would be unnecessary.

Podcast Host 2 (3:38)

It would take a Google, I imagine.

Warren (3:40)

No people have tried.

Podcast Host 2 (3:42)

Okay.

Warren (3:43)

They don't want it.

Podcast Host 2 (3:44)

So nobody knows which college you were teaching at?

Warren (3:46)

This was a high school.

Podcast Host 1 (3:47)

High school.

Warren (3:48)

Okay, okay. Right. So you asked me which school. What was the other part of the question?

Podcast Host 2 (3:53)

What was the video?

Warren (3:54)

Oh, the video was with a student making the claim that J.K. rowling asking me, how have your views on Harry potter changed given J.K. rowling's bigoted opin. There's a presupposition in there. All right, let's just run through that. He ended up changing his mind, realizing he didn't have the evidence necessary for the claim. That was all it was. I was surprised that anyone watched it, to be honest.

Podcast Host 2 (4:18)

Well, it was a great video because it was actually a very good example of someone applying critical thinking to an issue in good faith. And you could just watch through the logical fallacies that the person had in their head to ask the question in that way. And you kind of de. Radicalized almost them in that moment. So why would that be such a controversial thing?

Warren (4:40)

Well, there were many teachers not happy about it because they disagree on J.K. rowling. And word would get to me, they don't say these things to your face. And nonverbal communication is extremely important in navigating these day to day games that occur. But I was working with another teacher, a music teacher who had been collaborating with me on YouTube in the past Already we were fascinated by the technology, the medium. And he would tell me, man, they're looking. They're not happy. They're looking for. Just be careful. They're looking for any reason. And in the meantime, he and I had set up a little studio space that's still that bookshelf that I record to this day. Every Friday, he would come over and he would be the voice off the camera, and he had opposite views from Romania. And so it would make for really good conversations. There was something interesting about not having the person on camera because I think it allowed the viewer to project themselves in a way. But anyways, so why would they not be happy? Also, just the response, I think, is primarily because at first. So the video goes viral the next day. Pierce Morgan wants to have me on for like a 15 minute quick thing. And I remember, like, man, do I'm going to have to run this through the chain of command with the school? This is going to be. They're going to say no. So I just did it. And I came in the next day. People, they already knew, because I remember the day after, before Pierce Murray came in, and I wasn't going to say anything. Maybe they won't notice. Everybody knew because Elon had tweeted it out. And so they had a meeting after school. And like, yeah, so this happened with Warren. He didn't break any rules. He's not in trouble. So then I do. All right, Then I do the Piers Morgan thing. Then I come into school and they're like, all right, we've got to meet with the lawyers, the head honcho, the person in charge of the school who's really just this business person. Never at the school. We see her maybe once or twice a year. The principal was nice guy. He was the one like, this is crazy. This is like. And he was a little bit like, look, man, if you're going to do Pierce Morgan, you got to run up the chain of command. And like. I was like, okay. And he was like, but honestly, I would have done the same thing. So he was reasonable in that sense, but this went above his head. So I meet with the. With the lawyers, and they're on conference call. Well, you didn't break any rules. They literally said, congratulations. You're probably going to want to keep making things. You seem to enjoy it. I hope you don't make any mistakes. That was their language.

Podcast Host 3 (7:01)

It's kind of Mafioso, isn't it?

Warren (7:03)

There are aspects of this that are eerily like, we can get into it if you want, but Very strange that people like, you're making this up. It's crazy.

Podcast Host 3 (7:11)

So let's talk about that. I hope you don't make any mistakes. Be a shame.

Warren (7:17)

Yeah, that's what it was. Yeah.

Podcast Host 3 (7:19)

So let's talk about that. That aspect of it.

Warren (7:21)

In what way?

Podcast Host 1 (7:22)

Well, you were saying there's some stuff

Podcast Host 2 (7:24)

that you could share.

Podcast Host 3 (7:25)

Yeah.

Warren (7:25)

That people would believe that was out. So after, I'm thinking about this incident where the teacher that I had been collaborating with, he was like my best friend at the school. We got along really well because our content, the subject matter was very similar. We shared interests, camera, technology, both fascinated with it. And we'd be making all these promotional videos for the school to go online. So maybe a month goes by before I get fired and he's warning me and warning me about all this stuff and I get fired and he. It's like something had switched. And I anticipated this as well. I knew that they were going to sit him down, be like, you can't keep doing this with Warren. Like, he's dead to us. It was like I was deleted. Like, it was very. Like, you don't exist. Very strange. No contact, but all of his. He helped me set up the space, so a lot of his equipment's in that space. And a week goes by and he finally. He texted me. He texted me the day after. He's like, I heard the news because I was. I was like, escorted out.

Podcast Host 2 (8:22)

Really?

Warren (8:22)

Yeah. And so I had no call. I couldn't say goodbye to anybody. It was.

Podcast Host 2 (8:27)

Wait, well, hold on. Maybe I'm lost in the timeline. You do this video about J.K. rowling, but the student.

Warren (8:32)

Yeah.

Podcast Host 2 (8:32)

They say, don't make any mistakes. Did you then make a mistake?

Warren (8:36)

Yeah.

Podcast Host 2 (8:37)

What was your mistake?

Warren (8:38)

I did the same thing again with a different student, but I took more. So Teaching Media, I have a list of the. Who has the clearances, who has signed the releases, the parents. And we had had another conversation, like, oh, this one's kind of interesting. This might work. We had been making the content in my house because we were like, man, we've got to. This is. We don't want any more heat with the school, so let's just do it all at the house. But this one exchange, I was like, this is interesting. It was about J.K. rowling, a student claiming she was racist. And we knew the audience. This is what the audience wanted. And we had the. I had the clearances. And so I. I shared it on X, I think. But I was like, the lighting was atrocious and So I ended up deleting it. The school took that as evidence that I knew I was doing something wrong and I was trying to cover my tracks. That was. Was the lawyer speak that came at me later. But they sat on that for like three weeks, hoping I would do it again. I found out later, like, they could have told me, hey, this is what we're talking about. Like, make these adjustments. But they want. They were waiting for something to use. It was clearly a tactical. So that would be the mistake. Even I was like. So they pull me in the. The office. I was like, did you talk to the student? Did you talk to his parents? I did more than I've ever done. Like, the steps, like, yeah, there's this new step though. You have to ask. So. And so the. Your super and I had two sets of supervising principles because it's divided. Well, you didn't check with this person, so you're gone. And they made it very clear, like, you can either accept. You can accept it now that we want to get rid of you for YouTube, because it's not. And I get that in a way, it's like, I get that. Or we can conduct an investigation and get back to you in three days. Like, you haven't talked to the parents or the student even that you're worried about. Like, do they. The student doesn't care. Like, okay, let's wait. And then they kind of all that needs. And anyone listening to this, if you find yourself in a similar situation, force them into admitting what they're doing. Be like, okay, you want to fight? You're firing me now? Then I'm not giving you three days. Because what they're going to do is try and go through everything and find something better and then point to that. So anyways, a week goes by. I recorded a video about it just to process my thoughts. I was. It was really. Psychologically, it's one of the most difficult periods I've ever been through. I came home that day, I was just throwing up the whole day. I slept on the bathroom floor. And the next day I sat down and recorded something. Waited. I didn't post it for like a week or two. And then I did. And J.K. rowling reached out, which was a significant gesture for me, meant a lot. Anyway, so he. A week goes by, he needs to get his equipment. He comes over to the house, but he's talking completely different. And he's like, you knew you weren't supposed to do that. I was like, dude, I talked to you about all of these things. You told me they were trying to. He was like. This was. He was trying to, like. As though it's like I couldn't recognize him. He was, like, trying to insinuate that I had calculated this to purposely be fired. And it was like he was trying to get me on tape or something like that. Yeah.

Podcast Host 2 (11:42)

I was gonna say, it sounds like he was wiring a wire.

Warren (11:44)

That's what I meant by the mafiazo thing. But if I try and tell. I've only told the story once. If I tell it, people are like, that's. This sounds like you're just making up a mob move or something. But this is true. Like. And he got his equipment out there and he. And didn't say a word, which is another indicator that something was strange because he wasn't saying anything other than these things. And we went outside and he had a cigarette. We knew. We both knew this was the last time we were going to talk to. And we were like, best friends. Wow. Yeah. And I was like, man, this is. I don't think you understand just the game they're playing here. I was like, and just be careful. Like you as well. Because this could happen to. And I had seen people get taken out. The principal who hired me was there for eight years, devoted eight years. And the assistant principal who hired me taken out on the same day two years prior. And it was nonsensical reasons. They just will force. They have the ability, because it's not like a regular public school. They have the ability to force through outcomes however they want. It creates a very weird environment. Yeah. So he left, and as he was walking out, I was like, hey, there's this one device that will allow me to continue to plug a mic in this XLR adapter. Can I. Can I buy it from you? And he just handed it to me, didn't say a word, got in his car, and that's the last time I saw him. And then I get a text from the school a week later saying, hey. That he left this microphone. And we had gone through great lengths to make sure all this equipment was personal. So we're not crossing any lines. School contacts me and says, you have our microphone. So we're going to use that as leverage for this negotiation where they send an NDA. They said, if you sign this NDA, we'll pay you the rest of what we owe you for the year. We'll pay you for the end of the month, but we'll pay you to the end of the year if you sign this NDA. It'll prevent you from ever talking about this. Just go over it with a lawyer. Like a person from H. They're very rushed on the phone. They want. Do you have any questions? Yeah, I have a lot of questions.

Podcast Host 2 (13:36)

Sorry.

Warren (13:36)

Click. Like that kind of thing. I have to get a. How am I going to afford a lawyer? I don't have any money and they know that. So they think you're just going to sign it and they insinuate that we'll make it so you can't teach. Essentially, we'll give you a good recommendation if you sign this thing. It would also give them control of some of the videos on the YouTube channel as well. So I did not sign. Sign it. Peter Boghossian helped me get a lawyer. Cost me. I think she went easy on me because she knew the predicament. So she. I think she gave me a break on the cost. Cost a coup. 4,000, probably, which is probably a good deal for. She negotiated with them and she's like. And she was. Said to me, if I were you. I've never said this to a client. Normally clients come to me with these offers, these. India. They say, just sign it because why do you need to talk about this? She's like, this is strange. My advice to you would be to. If you can afford to not take. It was like $8,000, 9,000. But to me, that was massive. She's like, if you can afford it, pass on it. Don't do it. And I'm so glad I didn't. I wouldn't be talking to you right now.

Podcast Host 3 (14:39)

What did that entire experience teach you about the education system?

Warren (14:43)

I was talking to these guys about it, too. There's a fear that I see at the college level and the high school level around the emotional impact of the students to be able to have these conversations. So, like the Sam Richards, who I've worked with, and I do videos covering him sometimes where he's live streaming his college courses, and they do very well because people find it fascinating. He's very worried about getting shut down. He just got. I was supposed to. I went down and spoke to his class, which is 500 students, and I was supposed to go down this month, but he just texted me the other day and said he has a meeting, he's been summoned to by the provost and he doesn't think they're going to get shut down, but that threat is always looming and that's what they're going to use. If I told him this earlier on, I was like, it's going to be over. The potential for hurt feelings. They will probably won't even be able to point to anyone where there is actual damage or anyone who really cares. Because he was careful about which students he selects. They all know what they're doing before they do it. They understand it, but the school can still point to. And that's one of the things the school pointed to with me is they said, okay, well, yes, but the student having something like, yeah, we didn't expect this to go viral. And yes, it doesn't break any rules, but when there's millions of people looking at it, it could take a toll on him. I was like, yeah, but also they're almost all positive because he changes. He was reasonable in the video. To me, I think he was a very mature student and very intelligent student.

Podcast Host 3 (16:05)

And it's also as well, you couldn't see what the student looked like, which is a massive part when it comes to child safety.

Warren (16:12)

Right. Logically, it would be the same thing as if that music teacher made a song with one of the students. They post it on YouTube, just the audio and it goes viral. So that's technically the exact it's just a voice, but you don't like the content of the words.

Podcast Host 1 (16:27)

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Podcast Host 3 (17:56)

Absolutely. And what's really interesting is this wasn't your first time in the crosshairs of this kind of phenomenon because you were at Emerson College, weren't you, where I think it was 2016 where you saw the real flourishings of woke post Trump. So let's talk about that because that's fascinating as well.

Warren (18:12)

Yeah, I still teach at Emerson. I teach a filmmaking course and that was originally my plan was to hopefully be a professor at college. My parents were both professors. Academia seemed like a great job and it is. It's got great benefits and. But what I saw there in 2016 was it shook me for sure. I wasn't into any. I discovered the space as well. Jordan Peterson and I was fascinated by it because there was certainly a problem with what I was encountering at school. Students. Over 300 students marched into a faculty assembly claiming that Emerson was racist and making with literally a list of demands. And the administration kowtowed to it. They gave in. And that was the next day. The week following that, I was taking a pedagogy course with the dean of undergrad teaching it. And we had to devote the four hour class this week to discussing the systemic racism at Emerson and the head of the Social justice center, which is a literal office, literal people. You could do bias, anonymous bias reports. They were sitting in and the white students were told to surrender our white privilege for the duration of the four hours. And I thought, that's so weird.

Podcast Host 2 (19:34)

How does one surrender their white privilege?

Warren (19:36)

I would love to have a discussion with them, but they won't, probably. They wouldn't have a discussion.

Podcast Host 3 (19:40)

And it's worth bearing in mind to people who don't know Emerson, Emerson is an incredibly left wing college.

Warren (19:47)

It's extremely left wing. I didn't meet a single conservative professor at the time there. I met, I had, there was one student I can remember from grad school that was libertarian.

Podcast Host 3 (19:57)

So that being the case, you think, why is it that the most progressive left wing, one of the most progressive left wing schools in the country is suddenly racist or white supremacist or. It just doesn't make any sense.

Warren (20:10)

Well, it's a captivating narrative that creates an emotional satisfaction. It also gives the students the ability to make demands of their professors they couldn't otherwise make. So I was to teach my first class screenwriting. And the teacher that was signing it to me, I was her ta. She goes, warren, okay, you're about to do this. So remember, hold the students accountable. So for example, Warren, I have this one student doesn't show up to class, doesn't do any assignments and I'm going to give her the grade she deserves. You need to do the same thing. The protest happens, I'm about to teach it and we have a follow up meeting. You remember Warren, I was saying about that student, she got named on the website on the. It was a Facebook group hashtag EmersonSo Racist, accusing of microaggressions, claiming she made a microaggression, which doesn't require evidence because it's subconscious. It's microaggression rehab. Warren, I was really wrong about that because that student, I forgot how difficult it is. She told me about how difficult it is to be black at Emerson. So I can't hold her insinuating, I can't hold her to account for not coming to class because there's not enough professors that are black. According to them, they don't see themselves reflected in the student body even though there are many black students and black professors.

Podcast Host 3 (21:16)

That's so crazy. So what it's effectively saying is you can't uphold academic standards because somebody is of a different color.

Warren (21:25)

That's what that student was pushing for and many do. It allows them to push for that. So people are going to do what's in their interest if you give them the ability to. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that they took this narrative and ran with it.

Podcast Host 2 (21:37)

And why do you think colleges cave to this kind of thing?

Warren (21:41)

Because, well, so the pressure, the culture that exists within this high level, highbrowed academic elite where they all need to be, they all strive to be as sensitive. Here's an example. One teacher didn't cave. And I have the letter that he wrote. He sent an email. I think he sent it to the whole school, which is bold. I have it though I don't remember the president. He said we shouldn't be kowtowing to a mob. Essentially. Well articulated, long email the president to respond. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that teacher did not blast it. He sent it to the president of the college. The president countered by blasting everyone. Anyone with an Emerson email address received this email. So I have both letters. And it was essentially applying that pressure that you are going to be ostracized. Yeah, you have tenure, but you're cooked if you go down this road. You don't represent our values that we uphold and we're striving. How dare you. These students are brave enough to Stand up and tell us about their victimization and the subconscious turmoil that they're going through every day. How dare you treat it in such an insensitive way. And that was a long email, but that was, that's how I would summarize

Podcast Host 3 (22:53)

it because from what you're talking about with Emerson to what's happening in the school, and it just sounds like the seeds were planted a long time ago and the inevitable consequence is where we've reached now, where any type of debate is shut down or seen as damaging or harmful to the students.

Warren (23:13)

Yeah, I really enjoyed. I've always enjoyed pushing back where I think it's warranted. And I would in class. And it was interesting to see how the professors responded. It was interesting to note that so many of the graduate level students in my discipline, at least, were direct students from China, which I didn't. I still don't. I think it's because they pay higher tuition. It's essentially business. But Emerson has a high representation in China. Every year they send ambassadors over. They would select a student ambassador to go over for the convention in China. And I remember because the, the dean also had a high presence in China. She talked about how many times she'd been there. But anyway. But I remember bringing challenging one day in Social Cultural Media Studies. I have the textbook still in chapter one is by Karl Marx, talking about can we control the Internet? And I was like, well, we should ask how's it working in China? Like, what do you guys think? And I said it just like that. No, you can't, can't talk like that or talk about that. Like, this is a college level, this is a graduate level class. You want to analyze whether we control the Internet, but we can't talk about real world examples because it's culturally insensitive, is the way to use insinuating. It's a little example. That one stands out in my mind vividly. But there was a lot of nonsensical encounters with professors that, oh, it just gets under your skin. And then that drive. When you do see an alternative like Jordan Peterson, who I think put his finger on the source that you're describing. What led to this you could describe largely as postmodernism.

Podcast Host 2 (24:43)

Well, what I find extraordinary, Warren, is that you can kind of understand that in a society of social media and all this kind of stuff, you kind of go, well, maybe there's some sense to people being a little bit more careful about expressing it, you know, controversial things. Maybe, you know, if you work for a big company. No, everyone doesn't need to know your political opinions because you're going to come into work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the one place that you would think you would encourage people to explore difficult and controversial ideas is university is college. Because that's what it's for.

Warren (25:21)

It's not even political opinions. If we're having a conversation about can we control the Internet, that's not political. We're engaging with the logic of the claim.

Podcast Host 2 (25:28)

Yeah.

Warren (25:29)

And it's one thing I totally understand, especially at the high school level. Yeah. I don't like it when I see left wing teachers preaching about Trump in class. I wouldn't do that from the right. It's another if you're going to have a discussion or if a student asks you to explain, which literally happened to me, what is the difference between the left and the right essentially? Or what is communism? You can do it in a fair and balanced way.

Podcast Host 2 (25:52)

Yeah. Well, they left the good people.

Warren (25:53)

And at the college level, that's what you're going to get.

Podcast Host 2 (25:56)

Right. But I guess what I'm getting at is, I mean, I think it's obvious to anyone who understands the pipeline of how you go from school to college to work to life that this is the one part of your life that was specifically carved out for you to think about things, to explore different ideas, to challenge and be challenged. And that's now been taken away effectively. Right. So what do you think the impact of that is on society?

Warren (26:23)

It's a big question. I wish I had a really good answer to that. I think it's what we're seeing play out. It just creates more of a tribal sense because everyone coming out of that system, out of that college that I've encountered personally, I can assure you there's no one coming out with a different point of view because it's being hammered so hard. And I was hired to be the personal videographer of this is how I made money as a student to the dean I was referring to with the presidents in China. So she would hire me to go in when there's a public speaker or someone coming and I would do a promotional video, edit it quickly and get it out in two days. And so I got to see Emerson has a very prestigious journalism program and I got to see the people, they were coming in, they were bringing in to speak and they would bring in a conservative. This was when Trump was in the election. There was not every conservative they brought. And I still have the video, the footage too of some of this. Every single speaker was still anti Trump. The conservatives, they were explaining how he's not a real conservative. It was incredible. The most nuanced, interesting speaker was a Trump impersonator, though. I have some great footage of that where Rolling Stone was doing a thing on him. He was getting some traction. I don't know where he went, but he came in and laid into the students being like, no one thinks what you're doing is cute. You all, like, are striving. You think you're victims. And. And he was a graduate of Emerson in the comedy program. And that was probably the most interesting speaker I saw. That would be the closest thing to a nuanced take that I.

Podcast Host 2 (27:54)

And how was that received?

Warren (27:58)

The students were kind of left aghast. Yeah, they just were kind of speechless. But I think he knew what he. He understands the nature of comedy is to be bold. He's not afraid to do that. There was not enough. There was no. I commend them. There wasn't shouted off the campus like you would expect. But had he not been in such a prestigious role or just been covered by Rolling Stone and been backed as a personal friend by the dean, he would have been in probably a different response.

Podcast Host 2 (28:25)

Well, one of the interesting things about what you're saying is this kind of environment, it creates people who actually can't think, which is why it's kind of impressive that the student. The video you did about J.K. rowling, with your help, actually could think. Because increasingly we see this now on the Internet as well. It's like people are incapable of separating ideas from people. And the way that debates are now increasingly conducted, I mean, as we're sitting here recording this, this won't go out for a while, but there's literally some of America's most prominent journalists calling, saying that they have micro penises online. And it seems to me like.

Podcast Host 1 (29:03)

I mean, that's kind of a direct

Podcast Host 2 (29:04)

continuation of this, like, where you. You no longer discuss any of the issues. And it's just you're on the wrong side. You're on the wrong side of history. You're the other. And what gets lost is the actual conversation.

Podcast Host 3 (29:18)

And it's deeply offensive to people from the micropenis community.

Podcast Host 2 (29:21)

Absolutely.

Warren (29:22)

I think that's largely. I've been working on this book that's coming out that kind of delves into this. I think it comes back to the laws and narrative and the fact that we can't separate the character from the narrative. Psychologically, it's. It's impossible. I think it's largely because their narratives are built on Their, their business is built on their claims. When you become wed to your ideas, that becomes your brand. Now you're defending your brand, so you're less likely to change your mind. And then it leads into these, these wars that we're seeing now. So that's. My approach is different because I don't find that to be. There's things that I feel strongly about still. Right. But those are my first principles. That's not what we're seeing. We're seeing how the first principles manifest into politics. And frankly, politics is kind of boring to me compared to the deeper dynamics beneath all this.

Podcast Host 2 (30:13)

I totally agree. And it's one of the reasons we have had a lot of political guests on the show, but we've increasingly felt like that we want to space them out, if having any of them at all. I mean, when we started, our rule was we don't have politicians on the show. And then you kind of, you know, things are going on in the world. You want to hear some of their perspectives, whatever. But over time, you're definitely right that it kind of. You end up playing a totally different game and it's not the game we want to play. And by the way, I think there is plenty of space and you're demonstrating, I hope we're demonstrating it for content, which is not about we're on this team or on this team, but more like we are adjudicating the issues that come up as we go and we have some principles that guide us in that. But like a lot of people won't be able to tell what we think about an issue that comes up. They try to, but often they're surprised by that. And I think a lot of people find that very discombobulating because they just want you to be on their team.

Warren (31:12)

Yes. Yeah. That's been an eye opener as well for me. Yeah. There's been content creators where, because I do this format where I like looking at the dynamics of these interactions and you're not going to win them all. Everyone is going to have ones that go well because we're wrong about certain things and sometimes even when you're right, it's going to go poorly. It doesn't. Just the nature of debates. And I don't even like thinking of myself as a debater. But I've noticed that as well where like, Tim Pool got really pissed at me because I disagreed with him on one video and that, that I was like, whoa, that took me aback. And there is this sense, I've had a lot of people where there Is this team dynamic where it's like, yeah, but you're supposed to be on our, our ideological team. But I'm, it's important to note there's not a single person I'm going to agree with on everything. We were kind of referring to that.

Podcast Host 2 (32:06)

Yeah, right. Well, I mean one of the difficulties is if you play the team game, which I understand why people play because it's comfortable and there's lots of money to be made and friendships and you know, gatherings and you know, there's lots of advantages, network advantages, being part of a thing. I don't think that's really compatible with having solid principles. And I mean the, I'm not even that interested in anymore. But like the Candace Owens situation is a very good example of this where she's making claims about the fact that Erica Kirk killed her husband with the connivance of Egypt or Israel. It changes every day. Right. And a lot of people on the right on her team are very quiet about it, which is, you know, maybe she's your friend, whatever, you handle it whichever way you think. I'm not. That's up to those people. But I just know that if someone on the left was saying, well no, Charlie Kirk wasn't killed by the guy that we think he was killed by, actually he was killed by Erica Kirk. I mean, I think those people might have had something to say about it. Right? So you either have consistency of party loyalty or you have consistency of thought and ideas. And you can't have both sometimes, Right.

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Warren (34:46)

Not to the absolute. Because you're going to. Yeah, you're going to. There's going to. You're going to disagree sometimes for sure. For me, the way I approach it, if I'm being quiet about something, the way I would articulate is like, I haven't seen anything to. I have not seen adequate evidence to indicate that Erica Kirk killed Charlie Kirk. That's how I would address it.

Podcast Host 1 (35:08)

Yeah, I think that's.

Warren (35:09)

Just leave it at that. You know, I don't know, Candace.

Podcast Host 2 (35:12)

But on my point, the point I'm making is something else, Warren. And again, I don't really particularly care about having a go at these people who are supposed to call Candace out or those people or whatever. I'm not that interested. I'm just making a broader point, which is if you are, let's say, on the right and someone on the left made these comments about Charlie Kirk, the response would be immediate and strong and thorough and probably vicious. And yet when someone on your team does it, you kind of go, oh, you know, I think attacking Charlie Kirk's widow's wrong.

Warren (35:47)

Yeah, that's going back to that. We can't separate the character from the narrative.

Podcast Host 2 (35:51)

Right.

Warren (35:51)

That's. Yeah.

Podcast Host 2 (35:52)

And I guess the point I'm trying to make is I don't think it's possible to play a team game while also being true to the facts.

Warren (36:00)

I agree. I don't play. Even if it looks like it, I don't play team. I think Jordan Peterson was right to call. And this has always stayed with me. I don't like identity politics on the left or the right. Maybe it's because I was just listening to my favorite debate, driving down here with Stephen Fry. I mean, it's one of the simple debate, but one of the most powerful. And that was the message. It's like, when does the left go too far? Yeah, the right goes too far. I'm not gonna. Yes, I team. And it goes deep to psychology, evolutionary psychology, why we band together in these Ways, but it's a foolish game, I think.

Podcast Host 2 (36:42)

Well, one of the things that happens is, I think in the podcast and content creation YouTube space, what we are talking about, which is ideas and politics, they get meshed together. And so you have people who are talking about ideas and sometimes they're talking about politics and we do this too. And then those two things come together and I think it's quite confusing. It's like, are you talking about ideas or are you talking about politics? Because they're just different games. And I think a lot of the discrepancy comes from that, actually. Yeah, you know.

Podcast Host 3 (37:14)

Yeah.

Warren (37:14)

It's like the difference between the first principles and how they, those underlying dynamics versus how they manifest into politics. I mean, I agree with you on that for sure. Yeah.

Podcast Host 3 (37:23)

I think part of the worry is when we talk about education is because I used to be a teacher, so everyone can drink now. I mention it every episode.

Warren (37:31)

That's right.

Podcast Host 3 (37:31)

Yeah, I like it. Warren's like, yeah, you do, but where's

Podcast Host 1 (37:36)

your mum from again?

Podcast Host 3 (37:37)

Anyway, anyway, two drinks. But one of the things that you do as a teacher is you disseminate information, give them information. Arguably the most important part of teaching is not the information aspect of it. You're teaching skills. So when I was a drama teacher, what you were doing is you were teaching skills to kids. So they knew how to be creative, they knew how to structure and create improvisations, long form improvisations, plays, how to be more realistic on stage, et cetera. What you are doing is teaching people how to think critically. The problem comes if we don't do that. These skills are not intuitive, they have to be learned.

Warren (38:15)

That's interesting. Yes, because I think the recognition of logic is intuitive. But you're right, because this is going counter against what we were just describing about that tribal evolutionary impulse to band together for survival. And yes, breaking away, pattern disruption is. Well, it's a pattern disruption. Most people aren't going to do it. The, the majority, I think about it like this. The majority of people are going to be like water. They're going to take the path of least resistance. It's easier to be foolish than wise. There's risk that comes with breaking away from the group being. I sat down with Peterson, Dr. Peterson, he described as being the, the zebra with like orange stripes. Right. Like the reason zebras blend in is because they all have the same stripes. White and black stripes aren't going to cause you to blend into the grass. You're. You're blending to the herd. So I think you are onto something there. That's what I'm trying to delve into with what I've been writing and trying to put it into two words.

Podcast Host 3 (39:15)

Because when I look at some of these kids and, you know, you look at some people who debate these kids on campuses, and you see the kids get angry and upset, and then invariably the comments on YouTube is like, oh, kid gets owned, or whatever else. And I go, actually, I think we all now need to be a little bit more adult. I've been guilty of this. I hold my hands up and go, it's not the fault of the kid. It's the fault of the system producing it. Because if it's just one kid being produced who can't argue, can't think critically, you can go, well, the kid wasn't listening. Or maybe, you know, maybe they weren't a good student or whatever it may be. But the fact that we're producing legions of people who can't think critically, that's not the people's fault who are getting produced. It's the fault of the system. And what we need, actually, is a radical overhaul.

Warren (40:04)

And it's also the fault of the adults who won't contend with them or allow them to be contended with for fear of the emotional damage, or they won't be able to handle it. Even when we're talking about college students who are adults.

Podcast Host 2 (40:16)

Well, that's why I was asking you about why college administrators cave to this stuff. Right. Cause I think within that there is actually power that they don't realize they have. Cause those are also teachable moments. Right. When a bunch of kids demand some kind of readjustment of the entire system. If you have strong leadership in that moment that communicates that that is not how this works, that can teach those kids something. And I think there's been an abdication of responsibility on the part of the adults, I think, which is what Francis is trying to get in that way as well. Would you agree?

Warren (40:53)

Yeah, for sure. It goes back to that. I just can't stop thinking about this example with Sam Richards and how there's this fear of. All of these problems are going to have so many variables, though. There's the variable of liability while it's being streamed on YouTube. Okay, well, let's take that off the table. What about the classrooms where it's not being streamed on YouTube or being shared? Is that occurring? I have. I'm sure it's. It must be happening. I haven't seen it personally. Doesn't mean it's not happening. But I think I agree with you. It's safe to say that the majority of cases, it's not. It's not being fostered.

Podcast Host 3 (41:32)

And it's also, as well, not only do we not encourage kids and young people to think critically, we also fetishize emotions. So if you're having a debate and you say something that I profoundly disagree with, or you criticize a point and I get offended because I hold that point dear, suddenly it becomes acceptable to be offended or angry or upset, and I'm the one in the right and you're the one in the wrong.

Warren (41:58)

Yeah, that's how it gets weaponized. I was just thinking about. Probably the next video I do is looking back at you talking to Alex o', Connor, I think, and he was trying to make the case as though hate speech laws are justifiable. Well, because we have libel laws, defamation laws. So can't you imagine, Konstantin, a case in which you are actually causing emotional distress or harm to someone because of this medical condition? I mean. And I think you handled that well. You were kind of like, just like, what are you. They're just two completely different things. But so I thought it just reminded me of that. I thought that was interesting.

Podcast Host 2 (42:35)

I agree with you. I'm great. I've forgotten we had that conversation. I like Alex. We get on very well. Actually. Actually, I don't remember. I don't remember that bit. But it was a long time ago.

Warren (42:44)

Yeah, I just stumbled on it. I hadn't seen it before. Like, that's interesting.

Podcast Host 2 (42:46)

And do you. I mean, you're someone who really thinks about this very carefully. Do you have thoughts on how to develop critical thinking skills? How to teach critical thinking skills?

Warren (42:56)

Yes. So think. So with martial. In martial arts, there's this concept of, like the cotta. Right. So. And it's when you're in a real street fight, or for example, you can't stop and think it all. It's all due subconscious. But the kata breaks it down into rehearsible movements like a dance. So I was trying to come up with a methodology that could be taught for that portion of it, because there's multiple facets to this. The more I thought about it, I realized critical thinking is not just for debates. It's for navigating these daily games that we're engaging in, whether or not we realize it. When I was at that school, navigating what I just described to you, that was a game that was being played on multiple levels. And you can anticipate what you're all. And you're Trying. It's not necessarily you're trying to win. You're trying to achieve the ideal outcome and recognize where the best move is on the board that I'm trying to figure out. Okay, so. And a lot of that is non verbal. So the signals that were being sent to me, for example, that were. No one came up to me and said we want you to be fired for your. Because I disagree with. But the body language around jk it was. I noticed that there's a lot of communication that's non verbal. Perhaps even most communication is non verbal. And people don't say what they really think at the copy machine, what your colleague really thinks, but they telegraph it. Okay, so. But once we, once we do enter the verbal, what is the kata that will allow us to navigate this. So I try and formulate a method that will help with that for me. I describe it as sort of a flaw filter where it's not so much. I come at it as though this is the least bad option I've been able to find. Can you genuinely offer anything better? And it's important to recognize the least bad option because as Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. There's going to be flaws and that's a, a method people take or a strategy people take. Just pointing out the flaws that doesn't disprove you have a better alternative. So I'm listening for the alternative. I imagine kind of this like this red light bulb that is sitting on the desk and I'm listening. I'm just this filter not really taking a strong position necessarily. It depends. And when I. When that light bulb goes off with the first flaw, now you're ready to make a move. I lay out a strategy for that. But a lot of it is demeanor. How do you develop the demeanor? And then that gets into the laws of narrative. I think a lot of understanding these dynamics, you need to understand the laws of narrative to understand and think critically about dynamics like we've been describing with why are these moves being made with people teaming up in this way or not breaking away from their team? They're not thinking critically. Their team comes first. A lot of that. Perhaps it's because I spent 10 years studying screenwriting and filmmaking and the laws of narrative. But a lot of these lessons are relevant and I think it gave me the basis for what I use, I use today. So it's. Hopefully that book will be something that people can use to develop critical thing but also how to navigate these daily games.

Podcast Host 2 (46:11)

Well, it's Interesting you bring up Daily Games because it's kind of how I think about it. If you think about life in general, the closer you are to the truth of whatever the issue is, the more functionally better off you're going to be in that situation. Right. So if you. If you have. If your understanding of how to run a business is as close to the truth as possible, you're going to be better at running a business. If your understanding of what the truth of a YouTube channel is and how to run one, you're going to be better at doing that. If your understanding of what relationships are like is closer to the truth, that's much better for you than having your own emotional experience that drives you away from the truth and towards confirming your own biases or whatever else. And that's what I think a lot of people don't realize is truth has a. It's not just a, like, morality thing. It has a tremendous value. And so when we argue about what the truth is about politics or philosophy or society, that's the place from which we're coming. And that's why it's so valuable. Right?

Warren (47:13)

Yeah. And that's interesting you put it that way, that there is a true way to run a business, because postmodernism would claim that, which is all about truth claims being the result of social conditioning. They would. Many would claim there is no true way to run a business. It's up to me. And all interpretations are equally valid.

Podcast Host 2 (47:32)

Which goes back to how many post modernists have a business?

Warren (47:37)

And I think that it's such an important. It's such an important dynamic that when you're encountering these students, many of them are arguing postmodernism. They don't know what postmodernism is. And try debating someone on postmodernism, like, they'll just. They'll avoid it and they'll say, I don't want to get into the.

Podcast Host 2 (47:55)

Well, it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. Right? But you see, you take any example. I mean, you talked about martial arts. I imagine I'm not a martial artist, but I imagine it's true that there are different ways to throw a punch and there are different ways to do this, but there is a truth, but

Warren (48:11)

there's one punch that's most effective. Our bones can only structure in one way. Given your body composition, there's only one way you can get the most momentum in that. So that's an important distinction.

Podcast Host 2 (48:22)

And this is what I think a lot of this dynamic that we now have in terms of the way people communicate is. I think they've. I think actually most people I see online are behaving like postmodernists. Yeah, almost everybody, left and right.

Warren (48:37)

Okay, so you spoke to Destiny the other day. I made a video critiquing it, and there's already a response video where I compared it to postmodernism. His response, People are claiming, well, no, Warren's claiming it's postmodernism, but that has to do with truth claims. But when Destiny says to you, well, what is a lot? It's always changing, therefore you shouldn't be concerned about it. What do you mean unprecedented? What do you even mean by when you're claiming it is or it is not a lot? That is a truth claim. So. And maybe I should have said it's similar to talking to a postmodernist. When they do that, everything's always changing. So we can't expect a standard. What traditions are you. Can you constantly. Can you point to a single tradition that hasn't changed? Traditions don't matter to a postmodernist. It's all. And I. It's absolutely the opposite to how I view. Perhaps it's because of my background in narrative, where I do believe, like these stories, these archetypes are not just the result of social conditioning. They resonated. They will resonate for deeper reasons.

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Podcast Host 3 (50:59)

You know, when I got taught postmodernism at university, I remember just sitting there and going, this doesn't make sense. That's literally what I thought. Because when I asked them to explain postmodernism, they couldn't really explain what postmodernism is.

Warren (51:14)

Yes. And I in my art class required to take modern art, Right? We go in there, she's explaining to me, very nice, professor, but she's explaining to me that the banana nailed to the wall is of equal aesthetic beauty as the David, Michelangelo or whatever it is. There are no objective standards for beauty. Beauty is purely a social construct which actually goes against biology. That there are actual. There has to be a yardstick that drives us to see a hierarchy of beauty, so we have a target to pursue.

Podcast Host 3 (51:51)

But the interesting thing that I find about postmodernism and why I think it's so prevalent today, is that you can only really understand postmodernism if you're disconnected from reality.

Warren (52:05)

And every postmodernist you speak to has these claims. What you're describing is not postmodernism. And that gets very frustrating. This is the technique that I see the most often. We know what straw manning is. They claim, no, you're misrepresenting my argument. But what will happen, Destiny, for example, he will misrepresent your argument. Claim, no, what you're describing is critical race theory. That's not what critical race theory is. All critical race theory is, is thinking critically about the structures of group dynamics and power in the past and how that's. And they make it sound completely harmless. So circumvent, say, fine, going off the non verbal thing, then. What I'm talking about, call it whatever you want, is what led those students at Emerson to do this and what led that professor to tell us to surrender our white privilege. That's what I want to examine the ideology that leads to that. You can call it whatever you want. And they're going to try and go off on this thing, Just keep them on the rails.

Podcast Host 3 (53:07)

Absolutely. Because the more you investigate it, you go, oh, you have to be disconnected from reality in order for this to seem like it makes sense. Which is why discussions on Twitter and social media are so postmodern, is because they're fundamentally disconnected from reality. Ridiculous ideas can live in social media because they're not applied to the real world, because they're in the ether. They're in the digital age, if you know what I mean.

Warren (53:36)

Yes, yes. That's why I love the format that I am playing with, because it circumvents the strategy where they'll claim no one's saying that no one is making that argument. Well, I'll show you the words coming out of their mouth and then comment on it and then cut to them doing it again. My favorite video I've ever made was the postmodern professor talking with Joe Rogan. And it was like, you couldn't. You couldn't. If you described it, no one would believe you. So I have. I can't. This is a narrative, a law of narrative. The central law of screenwriting. Show, don't tell. I can show. I can't tell you about it. Cause you won't believe it. I can show you, though.

Podcast Host 3 (54:11)

Absolutely. Because we've had Adam Carolla on the show many times, and one of the points Adam makes is the most sensible people are those people who work with their hands. Like, we can talk about postmodernism and go, oh, you know, the aesthetic beauty of a banana nailed to the wall as compared to a Caravaggio. A Caravaggio. But you can't go to your carpenter and go, what is a centimeter?

Warren (54:32)

Right. Find where the rubber meets the road. So, like we were just doing with critical race theory, find a tangible point. That professor said this to me in that room. Where does the rubber. The trans conversation debate. We're talking about laws, structuring laws. Just go right there in the debate, not the theory portion of it or how I feel about it. It's like, how are we going to actually implement this? Where the rubber meets the road.

Podcast Host 2 (54:57)

Warren, do you have any thoughts on how. Why humanity is at a point now where this way of thinking has become appealing to people? What is it about modernity or the condition of humanity at this moment that means that people are capable of thinking? This is a useful way to think.

Warren (55:16)

We had a big transformation in the 60s, my parents generation. The Vietnam War had a big impact. Postmodernism, introduced from France became very appealing because of that transformation. That generation became the administrators. That's the dean at the college, that generation. That's my parents.

Podcast Host 2 (55:32)

Right.

Warren (55:33)

They're on board with all. They don't. It's fun talking to them because it quickly dismantles, but they're still.

Podcast Host 2 (55:40)

And what was the transformation? Why did the Vietnam War have this?

Warren (55:43)

Well, because people. I think because people viewed the Vietnam War, right or wrong, as a big injustice and a miscarriage of Power. And it put them on edge. It's. We had World War II very different that. I mean, the narrative has shifted drastically. It's so different than from World War II to there that I think culturally, music, the counterculture, and there's cool things about all that. Like, I like Jimi Hendrix. I think that was. Yes. The turning point that has now led to the generation in control. And now we're seeing a completely new generation. The Destiny. His audience who are pushing for. Literally, they're. Literally, we need to. They're claiming we need to do what they did to Hunter Biden because. And I was listening to his moderator try and talk to Destiny, concerned about the radicalization, violent threats being like, why do we need to make things up when they're doing things wrong already? They believe there's enough to point where this guy believes they're actually. If they're doing things wrong, we should be able to point to it, which seems reasonable. If you're going to try and arrest someone, you should be able to point to something. Destiny's response is yet, no, but they're too clever for that. So we have to make it up. It's literally like, I'm going to make a video about it and show you him saying that again. Show, don't tell. People won't believe it, but they're saying we need to, like, lock them up at any cost. It doesn't matter. Because. For the greater good, essentially.

Podcast Host 3 (57:08)

And that's why these skills are so important, because they are a really effective tool against radicalization. And we've seen people, young people particularly, be radicalized, radicalized into progressive leftist movements. We're now seeing people getting radicalized on the right.

Warren (57:24)

Yes.

Podcast Host 3 (57:24)

And these tools are very effective for fighting back against that.

Warren (57:28)

Yes. Understanding the laws of narrative hopefully will help with that, I think. But so I just. We should touch on this. I hope I didn't alarm me with the death threat thing. The guy who was kind of going a little bit crazy. I. All right, Well, I don't know if you saw that.

Podcast Host 2 (57:41)

I did. I have good security, so I wasn't too worried about it.

Warren (57:44)

Yeah. But what was interesting about that is that I've had people since then messaging me saying, this guy has been harassing me for a long time. Even on the left. Tilly Middlehurst, who kind of rose to notoriety from debating Charlie Kirk like the opposite, emailed me the other day. She's like, this guy. Thank you for posting that. This guy has been creeping me out. People are really concerned, and I had no idea about any of that. But that is. But you're right, that is the movement that's. That's happening.

Podcast Host 2 (58:13)

Well, I mean, one of the things with the Internet as well is I think it's created a space for activating a lot of people who are just mentally not very well. And it, you know, people are able to develop these kind of parasocial relationships that are both positive and inverted commas and negative in the sense that some people think that they're in a relationship with an OnlyFans model to which they send money, and other people think they are in a relationship with somebody who they watch online that they don't like. And I remember. What was that movie with Robert De Niro about baseball? Was it called the Fan?

Podcast Host 1 (58:51)

Have you ever seen that?

Podcast Host 3 (58:54)

Yeah, I think it's called the Fan. Yeah, I think so.

Podcast Host 2 (58:56)

Where he basically, De Niro is a big fan of this baseball player. You remember this? And. And he sort of feels like they're in a relationship and he's trying to help him out, and he ends up doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And I think what the Internet has done is it's kind of created a tool for weaponizing mental illness.

Podcast Host 1 (59:14)

And if you.

Podcast Host 2 (59:15)

If you were like an alien that came down from another planet and read the comments on the average tweet and you just went through the comments, you would just go, you know, schizophrenia, psychosis, you go, bam, bam, bam. Because, you know, I always say this like, there's a lot of mentally ill people, and they're mostly on the Internet. And that's what I think. And I'm not saying this in a disparaging, a derogatory way. I just think there are a lot of people that use politics now as well to kind of fulfill all these things and deal with. Cope and deal with issues that they need real help with, to be honest.

Warren (59:51)

Yeah, we were talking about this just a moment ago, and I forgot a major component of this which I think is perceived value. So when I started to get into the space of viral video, I recognized, whoa, there is a little more powerful than the ability to connect with an audience, which is one reason that school fears it so much, because you can't buy it. Brands try. That's what sponsors are. And I think there's this psychological phenomenon where if there's 10 people looking up, you're going to look up and see then something occurs with online people, celebrities in general, this perceived value. And you take some. Any of these personalities, they'll say something, and it's because of the surrounding narrative and we can't separate the characters, so we're seeing it through the lens of that narrative. And I'm just thinking like you, because I was struggling this with myself when I first started. I was like, no one's going to care if I make such a mundane observation. But the same a mundane observation in the hand, in the mouth of someone else. They're viewing it through that narrative and it takes on a whole nother meaning. I think that has something to do with it. And there's something deeply psychological about it. Where you reach a point where someone is famous for the sake of being famous. At that point, it's like a struggle for them. Until then, you see actors kind of break through that threshold. Until that point, it's all about the roles. But once they cross that threshold of perceived value, we want to watch them because it's Leonardo DiCaprio, whoever it is, because they're famous. That's a whole nother threshold. And there's like something actually switches psychologically.

Podcast Host 2 (61:31)

And do you think that's the point at which those people now feel like they have to have opinions on stuff that probably otherwise they wouldn't express?

Warren (61:39)

What I think happens is that they're climbing the ladder to that threshold by those opinions. And then once they're invested, that's their business. And now they are going to defend those opinions, because it's not their opinions they're defending, it's their business.

Podcast Host 2 (61:52)

Warren, it's been great to have you on. Before we head to Substack, where our audience get to ask you their questions, what's the one thing you think we're not talking about? That we should be.

Warren (62:00)

Double slit experiment in quantum physics. Are you familiar with the double slit experiment? I won't take up time.

Podcast Host 2 (62:09)

No, take up the time.

Podcast Host 3 (62:10)

Yeah.

Warren (62:10)

Well, I have this chapter in the book where logic ends, and it's the one that's sticking in my mind the most because there's so much about reality that is illogical. So as someone who's striving to be logical, how do I contend with where logic ends? And quantum mechanics and physics seems to be indicating that the very nature of reality behaves in a way at the atomic level that defies logic. The double slit experiment, they take an electron. You would expect these two slits. Imagine a paintball gun. It's firing between these. You would imagine the paintballs would create two lines where they fit through the slits and it's splattering everywhere else. That's not what we get. Only when the electrons know they are being observed. And if this sounds crazy, like it's not logical in quantum. The math, like, we can observe this. There are many lectures on YouTube where they will. You can listen to physicists break this down. Takes 10 minutes, but. Or you can delve into it deeper. To me, it's. And it's. We can. We know it's happening. So there's something about our consciousness interacting with the very fabric of reality that is extremely exciting to me.

Podcast Host 2 (63:20)

And you're saying logic is not the only force in the universe?

Warren (63:23)

No. There's the logos. I think there is a deeper reality beyond what we can observe within the logos.

Podcast Host 2 (63:29)

That's very interesting. I was going to make a joke about. Anyone who's married knows logic doesn't always work. But let's head over to Substack, head over to triggerpod.co.uk where Warren's going to answer your questions. Given your time as a teacher, what is one vital change you would implement in North American high schools if you had the power to do so?

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