Podcast
True Bill Talk
Hosted by Vanderbilt Project on Prosecution Policy · EN
From the Vanderbilt Project on Prosecution Policy, True Bill Talk is about getting to the truth of criminal prosecution in America right now: what it is, how people experience it, and how prosecutors can better serve their communities. Each episode of the podcast will feature in-depth conversations between Vanderbilt Law Professor Alissa Marque Heydari and prosecutors, policy experts, and advocates with diverse perspectives on the challenges and responsibilities of prosecution.
Produced by Kerry Hayes from Coeo Strategies, Collin Nixon, and Alissa Marque Heydari. Music by Ashot Danielian and Ivymusic.
21episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
Can Conservatives Be Reformers?
4w ago01:10:29Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we take on an assumption baked into most coverage of criminal justice: that reform is a left-of-center cause, and that any prosecutor with an "R" after their name must be pushing tough-on-crime policies. But that picture is incomplete. My guests are two people who don't fit the stereotype: Tim Barker, the Republican District Attorney of York County, Pennsylvania, and Frank Russo, a conservative advocate who serves as a senior advisor at CPAC's Nolan Center for Justice — where he helped build the Prosecutor and Law Enforcement Advisory Council. In our conversation, you'll hear why DA Barker prefers the phrase "public safety initiative" to "reform," the line both men draw between data-driven prosecutors and the people they call "ideologues" on the left and the right, and the specific programs York County has used in an effort to bring down crime, incarceration, and recidivism. You'll also hear me push back on their characterization of so-called progressive prosecutors.
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The Uncomfortable Truth About Jury Selection
Jun 1001:01:30Tap to summarizeUntil now, every True Bill Talk episode has gone deep on policy, current events, or the story behind an elected prosecutor's career. This one goes inside the courtroom and takes a close look at jury selection — one of the most consequential and least-examined moments in a trial. Today's guests are Prof. Nancy Marder (Chicago-Kent College of Law), one of the country's leading scholars on the jury, and Prof. Adam Shlahet (Fordham Law School), an experienced trial attorney who has practiced on both the prosecution and defense side. Together, they get into what the system asks lawyers to do — make high-stakes decisions about complete strangers based on minimal information, in a matter of minutes. Adam flips the conventional wisdom, making the case that jury selection isn't about finding the ideal juror — it's really about identifying the one who will tank your case and getting rid of them. And Nancy points out that many of those who might appear to be biased when entering the courtroom will be transformed during jury selection and other stages of the jury process so that they will be able to deliberate without bias. She also pushes back on the advice that often gets passed down to junior attorneys, pointing to research that shows that generally there is no reliable correlation between a juror's demographics and how they actually deliberate. And yet the system itself — with its time pressure and limited information — structurally invites the kind of snap judgments we're supposed to be avoiding.
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DA Jared Williams on Youth, Justice and Common Sense Prosecution
Apr 1401:02:04Tap to summarizeDistrict Attorney Jared Williams (Augusta, Georgia) used to spend his Christmas mornings in the local Youth Detention Center. It wasn't because Jared got into trouble - instead, his parents would bring him to the Center to show him the experience of kids who didn't have the advantages he had growing up, and to make sure those children didn't spend the holidays alone. To this day, the perspective Jared developed through those early experiences continues to shape his approach to criminal justice. As his community's top prosecutor, Jared has more opportunities than ever to see how early interventions and investments in the lives of youth can help prevent them from becoming involved in the justice system. As Jared explains, giving children access to more resources, especially if they have an incarcerated family member, isn't a "reform" tactic as much as it's a cost-effective and common sense way to minimize harm in his community. Jared's interest in the lives of Augusta's youth is only one of the topics we covered in this wide-ranging interview. Shortly after his election in 2020 - as the first black person ever, and the first Democrat in many years to win his seat - Georgia's state legislature carved out a portion of his district so that a more conservative prosecutor could represent it. As Jared points out, that type of gerrymandering cuts both ways: state lawmakers disenfranchised thousands of his supporters while also stripping some of his opponents of any say over his policies. This was one of the many unexpected insights from our conversation. Ultimately, our discussion was about values: where they come from and how they show up later in life, especially in a job like Jared's, where the stakes are high.
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Nelson Bunn on Prosecution & Politics
Mar 1500:47:18Tap to summarizeIn this episode, we're doing something different. I'm speaking with an individual whose job is to hold a national perspective on criminal justice issues: Nelson Bunn, Executive Director of the National District Attorneys Association, whose mission is to be the "voice of America's prosecutors" and provide training to local prosecutors. I wanted to interview Nelson because the NDAA influences the policies of thousands of prosecutors across the country. And the wide range of views among prosecutors on how to use their power and discretion makes Nelson's job immensely complicated. In this episode, Nelson takes us behind the scenes on how that works.
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Federal Immunity from Local Prosecution
Feb 1900:24:31Tap to summarizeIn the last few weeks, I've been hearing questions from prosecutors like when are federal agents immune from state prosecution? Will these cases be tried in federal or state court? What cases should I be aware of as a starting point if this becomes relevant in my community? To answer these questions, I interviewed Professor Nadia Banteka of Florida State University College of Law on True Bill Talk. She's an expert on constitutional criminal procedure and criminal law, and takes us on a deep dive into this complicated area of law. This short episode will give you a solid understanding about federal immunity from local prosecution with an incredibly knowledgeable legal expert.
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John Chisholm on Investigating Federal Agents
Feb 1200:54:48Tap to summarizeOver the past few weeks, two people were killed by federal law enforcement agents in Minneapolis during immigration enforcement actions directed by the Trump White House. In this conversation, we don't delve into immigration policy or whether the shootings are legally justified. Instead, we focus on why and how local prosecutors should investigate allegations of misconduct by federal agents. Local investigations are essential for creating an independent, public record — one that ensures transparency and maintains community trust. And John Chisholm is the perfect guest for this topic: as the former Milwaukee DA, he oversaw investigations that resulted in both pursuing and declining charges against police, earning criticism from both sides. Drawing on 18 years in office, John explains his approach to police-involved fatalities, how federal–local cooperation has traditionally worked, what's shifted in Minneapolis, and practical advice for prosecutors addressing federal misconduct today.
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DA Dalia Racine on Prosecution Through a Survivor's Lens
Jan 1400:51:31Tap to summarizeDA Dalia Racine of Douglas County, GA is unique in her willingness to be extremely candid about everything from her personal background to what she has learned about crime and humanity from her time as a prosecutor. As you'll hear in this episode, Dalia's career has been shaped by her own experience as a survivor of child sex abuse. But what she went through as a child has made her approach to sex crimes cases much more nuanced than you might expect. The road to Dalia's current position was exceptionally challenging for a number of political reasons – all of which she discusses in this episode. And her victory in 2020 marked the first time a woman of color won that office in its history. This episode explores how one prosecutor's tenacity, humility, and deep capacity for empathy can shape their approach to the job.
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Jared Fishman on Improving the Justice System with Data
Dec 1100:53:56Tap to summarizeJared grew up in Atlanta in a Jewish family that instilled in him the concept of tikkun olam, or the idea that we each have a role to play in repairing the world. This became the driving force behind his career path---which included years as a federal civil rights prosecutor----and eventually led to founding the Justice Innovation Lab, which uses data to improve public safety while reducing harm. Jared seamlessly connects deeply personal values with rigorous analytical work. Throughout our conversation, he uses words like "healing," "repair," and "safety" – not as abstractions, but as the concrete goals behind every data point and policy recommendation his team produces.
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DA Mulroy on Federal Agents in Memphis
Nov 500:28:53Tap to summarizeMemphis has become the center of intense federal law enforcement activity—and the results are more complex than you might expect. The Memphis Safe Task Force issued over 4,000 traffic citations, made more than 1,000 arrests, and conducted 206 firearm seizures in just a couple weeks, creating a dramatic surge that's already stretching thin the community's court systems. In this episode, Shelby County District Attorney Steve Mulroy offers a rare inside look at how his office is managing this federal intervention. What he reveals might surprise you.
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Mini TBT Episode: Will Tennessee Eliminate Felony Murder?
Oct 2200:18:49Tap to summarizeTrue Bill Talk's newest episode takes you inside a Tennessee State Senate Judiciary Committee hearing where state senators examined proposed legislation to eliminate felony murder and accomplice liability in Tennessee. These are complex doctrines with serious implications for people, especially if someone gets involved in a crime that results in another person's death – even if none of the perpetrators intended that someone be killed. In the episode, I break down how felony murder allows prosecutors to charge a getaway driver in the same way as the person who planned a robbery and pulled the trigger. I also explain why abolishing felony murder would be problematic, but that legislators have good reasons for wanting to modify the doctrine. Tennessee may not eliminate this controversial law anytime soon, but there does seem to be some interest in making changes -- maybe not this coming legislative session, but possibly sooner than we think.
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