Deborah Linsley

Summary

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True Crime All The Time Unsolved

Episode 465: The Unsolved Murder of Deborah Linsley

Released: May 18, 2026 | Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the unresolved murder of Deborah Linsley, who was brutally killed on a commuter train in Greater London in 1988. Despite 70 people traveling on the train around the time of the murder, only one reported hearing anything suspicious. The case remains unsolved decades later, yet police possess the killer’s DNA. The hosts discuss the facts, possible motives, suspect descriptions, investigative challenges, and the enduring pain for Linsley’s family, all while balancing sobriety with their characteristic dry humor.

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Case Background and Key Facts

• Victim: Deborah Ann Linsley, age 26 at time of death, originally from Bromley, Kent, living and working in Edinburgh.
• Murder Date/Location: March 23, 1988, on a train traveling between Petswood and London Victoria stations, Greater London.
• Circumstances: Deborah was returning to Edinburgh after visiting family, occupying a non-corridor (enclosed) compartment, and was to be a bridesmaid in her brother’s upcoming wedding.

[03:21] Mike Ferguson: "We're talking about the murder of Deborah Lindsley. On the afternoon of March 23, 1988, Deborah Lindsley was murdered on a train between the Petswood and London Victoria stations in Greater London. There were approximately 70 people on the train. Deborah fought back and even injured her attacker, but only one passenger reported hearing anything suspicious."

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Timeline and Crime Scene Details

Deborah’s Final Hours

• Deborah boards the train: 2:16 PM at Petswood Station.
• She selects a non-corridor compartment—chosen possibly because it was a designated smoking area.
• Attack: Occurred before the train’s arrival at Victoria Station at 2:50 PM.
• Discovery: Her body was found by a porter, with blood from both Deborah and her attacker, indicating a fierce struggle.

[07:02] Mike Ferguson: "Deborah may have chosen this type because it was one of the few compartments where smoking was allowed."

[07:21] Mike Ferguson: "Deborah was attacked and stabbed 11 times in the face, neck and abdomen. At least five of the wounds were around her heart."

[07:39] Mike Gibson: "Brutal."

Forensic Findings

• Defensive Wounds: She put up a substantial fight, injuring her assailant.
• No Sexual Assault Evidence: Police theorized an attempted sexual assault, but found no direct evidence of that.
• Killer’s Blood: Blood at the scene belonged partially to the attacker.

Train & Compartment Specifics

• Old-fashioned non-corridor compartments: Doors open directly outside, no passage between carriages.
• Security concerns: Noted as more dangerous for passengers due to lack of escape routes.

[09:03] Mike Gibson: "Knowing that once the train gets moving, you really don't have an escape route."

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Eyewitness Accounts and Suspect Descriptions

• Only direct witness: A French au pair, Helene Jocelyn, heard “very, very loud voices… the screams of fear” between stations, thought it could be an assault or rape, but was paralyzed by fear and did not pull the train’s alarm.

[21:53] Helene (via statement): "I heard screams. Very, very loud voices. They were those of a woman and very high pitched. I have never heard such screams. They were the screams of fear..."

• Suspect 1 Description (from Helene):
  • White male, ~40 years old
  • 6 feet tall, heavily built (“fat rather than muscular”)
  • Ginger/red collar-length hair, thin mustache
  • Light-colored jacket, gray pants

[13:00] Mike Ferguson: "He was described as a white man, about 40 years old, 6ft tall, heavily built and running to fat with gingerish collar length hair and a thin mustache."

• Suspect 2 Description (“Scruffy man” from other witness):
  • White male, late 20s or early 30s
  • Stocky, 5'8"
  • Shoulder-length dirty blonde curly hair, unshaven

• Additional sightings: Another report of a man with red hair acting suspiciously upon arrival at Victoria; possible (but ultimately unlikely) links to a separate attack on another woman (different physical description, likely not connected).

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Investigation Overview

Immediate Police Actions

• Scour for weapon: Police searched railway embankments but never found the knife.
• Composite sketches and appeals: Artists’ impressions and suspect details released to the public.
• Rewards: £30,000 reward issued by businesses to encourage tips.

Major Obstacles

• Train layout: Non-corridor design made monitoring compartments difficult.
• Passenger recall: Only 1 out of about 70 passengers reported anything suspicious; at least 20 passengers never identified.

[27:24] Mike Ferguson: "Detectives had traced all but 20 of the 70 passengers on the train."

• Lack of witnesses: Train noise likely drowned out sounds of the struggle.
• Cultural reluctance: Witness hesitance exacerbated by fear, uncertainty, or wishes to avoid involvement.

DNA and Cold Case Progress

• Early role of DNA: Police secured a DNA profile by 1988, but techniques were rudimentary; re-tested as technology advanced (notably in 2002 and onward).
• No match in databases: Despite advances, the profile does not correspond with DNA in police or criminal records.

[19:09] Mike Gibson: "The technology just wasn't there yet." [39:41] Mike Ferguson: "Investigators reopened Deborah's case in 2002 because of advances in DNA technology... Investigators now had a full DNA profile obtained from the killer's blood at the crime scene."

• Family’s frustration: Both Deborah’s mother, Marguerite, and father, Arthur, have actively campaigned for reopening the case and for mass DNA testing in their area.

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Theories and Speculation

Stranger vs. Known Attacker

• Investigators considered the possibility Deborah’s killer was an acquaintance, but found no evidence of personal conflict.
• Most experts, including the family, suspect a random, opportunistic attacker—a theory reinforced by: • Location and compartment type • No known motive or robbery

[40:27] Mike Ferguson (on the idea she knew the attacker): "Maybe she felt comfortable for part of that trip and then that individual flipped on her." [42:38] Marguerite: "Right from the beginning, we thought it was a stranger. But the police followed a set pattern, working outwards from family and friends..."

Nature of the Attack

• Sexual motivation: Possible but not confirmed.
• Opportunistic violence: Also possible—could be a person who had previously attacked others.

Suspect’s Fate

• Suspect might be dead or living under the radar. Could have committed other crimes but avoided database entry due to not being apprehended or convicted.

[47:10] Mike Gibson: "No, it doesn't surprise me [that his DNA isn't in the database]. It just means they haven't been caught."

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Family Perspective and Notable Quotes

• On justice and healing

  [37:55] Marguerite Linsley: "It's not vengeance that I'm after. What is the point of that? Debbie's gone. But seeing someone brought to justice is all part of the healing process and coming to terms with what has happened. Most of the time I managed to block it out. I have to. It's the only way I managed to survive."

• On anger and perseverance

  [44:59] Marguerite: "People tell me to get rid of my anger, but I'm staying angry. I have a right to be angry."

• On missed opportunities

  [24:19] Mike Ferguson: "To me, I do think a lot of people feel like they need to be on the careful side. They don't want to be that person who calls the police and it just turns out to be nothing... But in a perfect world, obviously, it would have been better if [Helene] would have alerted someone sooner."

• On the DNA profile

  [45:56] Arthur Lindsley: "So here we have a probable repeat violent offender, and we have his full DNA profile, but he's not on the DNA database. I find that very puzzling."

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Investigative Hope & Advances

• Genetic genealogy: Hosts emphasize optimism that, with the killer’s clear DNA sample preserved, modern forensic genealogy could eventually break the case.

  [49:31] Mike Ferguson: "The most likely thing would be the genetic genealogy route, trying to narrow it down to someone's family tree and then working from there..."

• Public Appeals: Family and police continue to ask for information—especially from those who remember someone returning home with unexplained injuries or blood-stained clothes on March 23, 1988.

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Key Timestamps

• 03:21 — Case introduction and summary
• 07:21 — Description of the crime scene and wounds
• 11:24 — Discussion of the lone witness and train acoustics
• 13:00–14:53 — Suspect description and puzzlement over lack of blood on suspect seen by witnesses
• 21:53–23:05 — Helene’s detailed account of screams and suspect
• 24:19–25:34 — Ethical dilemma over bystander inaction
• 39:41–44:59 — DNA, cold case reviews, and family perspectives
• 47:10–49:31 — Theories on the unknown attacker, hope for future advances

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Most Memorable Moments

• Deborah’s Defensive Courage:

  [24:19] Mike Ferguson: "A pathologist testified that Deborah made a very fierce and determined effort to defend herself. And you said it right. She fought with everything she had."

• Family’s Poignant Reflections:

  [44:59] Marguerite: "...I'm angry, I'm staying angry, and I have a right to be angry."

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Final Thoughts

• The case remains a chilling reminder of the vulnerabilities in public transport and the tragedy of missed moments and bystander inaction.
• The hosts spotlight the significance of preserved forensic evidence, the importance of cold case persistence, and the vital role public appeals play as time passes and relationships change.
• Both Mike and Gibby remain hopeful, given the preserved DNA, that a breakthrough may yet come—likely via advances in forensic genealogy.

[50:01] Mike Gibson: "The fact that they have it and they preserved it as long as they have and were able to get a viable sample...that gives me a lot of hope. So I do think it'll be solved. Now, will the killer be brought to justice? I don't know."

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If you have information about the murder of Deborah Linsley, law enforcement continues to urge you to come forward. Advances in forensic science offer new hope, but closure for Deborah’s family and justice for her still depend on someone breaking their silence.

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[For New Listeners]

This episode balances a detailed, compassionate victim-centered approach, sharp commentary on investigative hurdles, and a call for renewed attention to cold cases, all presented in a conversational style. Even without previous knowledge of the case, listeners will leave with a clear, nuanced understanding of the investigation, its impact, and the ongoing hope for resolution.

Transcript

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 465 of the True Crime all the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me. What is going on?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey man, I'm doing okay. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great. Yeah, we're at the. We're coming to the end of a long recording session we. But I'm excited to talk about this unsolved case. It's a fascinating one. But before we do that, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Joanne Batt.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Joanne.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kimberly.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on? Kimberly?

[Mike Ferguson]

Robin Moore jumped out to our highest level.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, thanks Moore.

[Mike Ferguson]

HB girl.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on? Grill.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sweet pea.

[Mike Gibson]

Sweet pea.

[Mike Ferguson]

Nicole Crane.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Crane.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Lisbeth Van Leemput.

[Mike Gibson]

All the old Van Leemput.

[Mike Ferguson]

We appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Cindy M. Thanks.

[Mike Gibson]

Signed him. It's probably signed.

[Mike Ferguson]

You think it's signed?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, could be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Never know. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime all the Time where we're talking about Cody Johnson who got married to a woman named Jordan Graham. And they were super, super happy right on their wedding day. But just eight days after the wedding, Jordan pushed Cody off a cliff.

[Mike Gibson]

Trouble in paradise.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So there's a lot that goes into the case, right? Prosecutors argue it was a murder. The defense said that it was self defense. And you got to listen to all the facets.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep. Make your own decision.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time Mansault?

[Mike Gibson]

I am.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about the murder of Deborah Lindsley. On the afternoon of March 23, 1988, Deborah Lindsley was murdered on a train between the Petswood and London Victoria stations in Greater London. There were approximately 70 people on the train. Debra fought back and even injured her attacker, but only one passenger reported hearing anything suspicious. Years later, police re examined the case with DNA technology, but to date, the murder remains unsolved.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, that's always rough, man. It's still unsolved. They have some DNA, but just haven't been able to put it to rest.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that, that is tough. But to me, the, the thing that stands out here is you have what sounds to be a pretty intense struggle with about 70 people on the train and only one person said they heard a thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, kind of a mystery.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Deborah Ann Lindsley was born in Bromley in the county of Kent on October 20, 1961. Her parents were Arthur and Marguerite Lindsley. Arthur was a retired insurance broker and Marguerite was a fraud investigator for the Department of Social Security. By 1988, 26 year old Deborah had moved out and was living and working in Edinburgh as a trainee receptionist at the Drogheda Hotel. And I'm sure I'm not saying that correctly, as evidenced by our voicemail this week on True Crime all the Time, where I mispronounced, I believe something in Scotland.

[Mike Gibson]

Just not like you to do that.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you want to said that way, spell it that way. I keep saying that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I'm almost thinking like, if that's the case, then this is probably like the druid heater.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could be.

[Mike Gibson]

Could be.

[Mike Ferguson]

In March 1988, Deborah came to London to attend a weekend hotel management course. The following Monday, she went to her parents home in Bromley for a visit. She also visited her brother Gordon, who was getting married in two weeks. Deborah was supposed to be a bridesmaid. So I mean, I, I think from everything that we're talking about here, Deborah seems to be at a seemingly a pretty good place in her life.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, seems like it. Right. She's got her new career going, she's training, you know, to learn how to be a good a manager and she's happy with her family, things are in

[Mike Ferguson]

a good spot and she has some things she's looking forward to. Right. Her brother's getting married. She's a bridesmaid. In the wedding on the afternoon of March 23, 1988, Gordon gave Deborah a ride to Petswood Station so she could begin her journey back to Edinburgh. Deborah got on the train at 2:16pm the train was scheduled to make multiple stops before arriving at Victoria Station in London. At 2.50pm Debra sat in an old fashioned compartment which could seat six people. This type of compartment had a door on either side opening directly to the outside, with no way of moving from compartment to compartment.

[Mike Gibson]

So once you're in it, you're, you're in it?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You're not moving back and forth along the train.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Deborah may have chosen this type because it was one of the few compartments where smoking was allowed. After Deborah's murder, British Rail emphasized that trains always had at least some quarter type compartments which allow movement to other compartments to give passengers a choice of corridor or non corridor compartments. At some point before the train arrived in London, Deborah was attacked and stabbed 11 times in the face, neck and abdomen. At least five of the wounds were around her heart.

[Mike Gibson]

Brutal.

[Mike Ferguson]

When the train arrived at Victoria at 2.50pm, a porter checked the train and saw that the carriage floor and seat were covered in blood. Deborah's body was discovered on the floor and it was determined that some of this blood belonged to the killer who was injured in the struggle. Deborah had defensive wounds on her hands. Scotland Yard said she may have been trying to defend herself from a sexual attack, but there was no evidence of what they called sexual interference.

[Mike Gibson]

She wasn't going to go down easy. She was fighting.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Whether it started out as some type of sexual attack or if it started out as a stabbing, we know it ended as a stabbing. But I'm with you. It sounds to me like she fought back very viciously. Detective Superintendent Guy Mills, the senior investigating officer for the Metropolitan Police, described the crime as savage and brutal. Women and young people were warned to be on their guard when traveling on trains. Detective Mills said, as quoted by the Journal. Avoid like the plague. The type of train where the only means of escape is through the doors on either side, directly onto the line or a platform.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, good advice, right. Knowing that once the train gets moving, you really don't have an escape route.

[Mike Ferguson]

But what does this mean for Deborah's murderer? And to me, it means he was either in that compartment from the very beginning when she got on the train, got on at the same time as her, or he got on at some point along the journey.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. One of the other stops.

[Mike Ferguson]

At one of the other stops. Because he didn't come from another compartment.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Rail Guards were ordered to be extra vigilant after women came forward to say they felt vulnerable to harassment and attack on the New Castle to Sunderland line. A British Railway spokesman denied that women in the northeast lines faced the same dangers as Deborah did. The spokesman said the rolling stock in the south consisted of segregated compartments, but on Tyneside they have a corridor inside the train so there is permanent access to the passengers by the guards. British Rail noted that there were very few of the older trains on the Sunderland to Newcastle route.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, but it only takes one train to have that set up. Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And I get it. As a spokesman of the railway, you're going to come out and try to make people feel as safe as they can, but, you know, how safe can you really feel when somebody is savagely murdered like this?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It also doesn't do a lot of good to have guards if there's no corridors to allow them to get to certain compartments.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, you're really limited on what they can do.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. I mean, they can only really walk up and down the, the parts of the trains that actually have corridors. Although 70 people had boarded and departed the train by the time it got to Victoria, the only potential witness was a French au pair who heard loud screams shortly after the train departed Brixton Station, the last stop before Victoria. It was thought that the noise of the train drowned out the screaming for most of the other passengers.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, I get it if she's in a, a car where other passengers aren't around. Right. Sounds like most likely it was just her and the killer.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I would think that's a pretty good assumption.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And you know how those trains can be, you know, just, they're loud. It might be difficult for someone to hear the struggling and the screams at certain points, you know, parts of the trip.

[Mike Ferguson]

I, yeah, I understand that it would be difficult for everybody on the train to hear. Right. Because the further you get away from where that compartment is, the harder it's going to be to hear. I, I still think, okay, you had 70 people on and off. Only one person heard, though. That, to me, just, it seems a little bit strange.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. You think maybe a few more than just one would, would at least hear that.

[Mike Ferguson]

On March 28, it was reported that police were scouring railway embankments to find the murder weapon, which was thought to be a five to seven and a half inch knife. However, Scotland Yard admitted they didn't know where on the line the murder occurred. And I get that. I mean, there's no way to know for sure if you base it off the screaming though, it does seem as though it occurred somewhere between Brixton and Victoria.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know how far that is, but that might be quite a bit of terrain to scour.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it might be trying to find the needle in the haystack.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you're thinking that, you know, the killer threw the knife from a moving train. Police also issued an artist's impression of a man seen leaving the train at Victoria Station from a carriage near where witnesses reported hearing a commotion and where the attack took place. He was described as a white man, about 40 years old, 6ft tall, heavily built and running to fat with gingerish collar length hair and a thin mustache.

[Mike Gibson]

There's some phrases you don't hear often.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no. Heavily built. I understand running too fat. So I don't know if that's heavily built to being obese. Somewhere in between. I really don't know what that means. I'm taking it also, you know, he's a ginger.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

With a thin mustache.

[Mike Gibson]

What's a thin mustache? Does that mean it just touched the lip and doesn't go to the nose? Or is it on the nose but doesn't go to the lip or.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I'm. Now when I think thin mustache, I think like really thin. Like it's in the middle between. It's not anywhere near the nose or the mouth.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, just sitting in the middle, but pretty thin.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I could be wrong. He was wearing a light colored jacket and gray pants. Okay, so you know, it's. It's a. It's a decent description. Here's my problem, Gibbs. We just talked about what a brutal, brutal murder this was. Eleven stab wounds, a bunch of them around the heart. Blood everywhere. Some of it believed to be from the attacker. How is this man leaving the train not seen covered in blood?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean especially with a light colored jacket. You think it would stand out?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's true. I mean he's not if it. If he was wearing all black. Okay, maybe that hides the blood somewhat. You can't see it, but you're right. Light colored jacket, gray pants, someone covered in blood spatter. You would think that would be a part of the description. Yeah. Police were also looking for a. What they called a scruffy man who was described as white, in his late 20s or early 30s of a short, stocky, built about 58 with shoulder length, dirty blonde curly hair. He appeared to be unshaven.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a pretty broad description.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. I mean you add about 30 or 40 years to that and he's sitting right across from me.

[Mike Gibson]

Minus the curly hair.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I'm keeping that in shoulder length, dirty blonde curly hair. I'm looking at it right now right here. You know, when Gibby and I first started this podcast, we had a lot of what ifs.

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

One witness reported seeing a man jump from a single enclosed compartment of the train at Ping East Station, run along the platform and get into an open compartment at the front of the train. In late March, Murder squad detectives retraced Debra's journey, hoping the reconstruction would jog the memories of travelers. Police had accounted for about 40 passengers on the train, but they were waiting on many others to come forward. And we said there was what, about 70 people or so on the train at different times, right? Some people get on, some people get off. I have to believe this would be big news. And so where are these 30 other people who have not come forward to say, yeah, I was on the train.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, sometimes people don't want to be involved.

[Mike Ferguson]

That is true. But if they find you, that's probably going to be one of the first questions they ask. You did see this all over the news, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Why didn't you come forward?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. In April, with the murder still unsolved, a 30,000 pound reward was issued by Ladbrokes Hotel and two private consortia. By September 1988, police announced they had the suspect's DNA profile. And. And we're trying to link it to an individual and that's awesome. The problem is 1988, that was like DNA infancy.

[Mike Gibson]

The technology just wasn't there yet.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I think. I mean, really, DNA had only been used for a couple of years, a few years by that point. Not very long. The Westminster Coroner's court held an inquest into Deborah's death on November 16, 1988. The inquest heard from Helene Jocelyn d' au pair, who heard what she described as screams of fear in an adjacent train compartment, but didn't pull the alarm chain or contact police when the train reached its destination. Helene was the only person to hear the screams and to see the prime suspect.

[Mike Gibson]

Makes you wonder why she didn't pull the chain.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, you and I have talked about different scenarios, whether it's hearing gunshots, hearing screams, maybe in an apartment complex or something like that. You know, what does a person make of that and does it rise to the level that they think they need to reach out to police? To me, I do think a lot of people feel like they need to be on the careful side. They don't want to be that person who calls the police and it just turns out to be nothing and then they, you know, they've wasted the police's time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, no, I believe that. I think that's the majority how people feel like, yeah, I know I heard something, but if it was really something big, I'm sure somebody else heard it too. And maybe one of them will call.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, maybe they got a look at her. They know what's going on. I don't. I just heard it. Helene, who was 19 at the time, was working as an au pair in Petswood, Kent, at the time of Deborah's murder. She had since returned to France to go to university and didn't appear in person at the inquest. She did give a written statement that was read in court. She was traveling in a closed compartment on a train when she heard screams from. From the compartment immediately behind her. Soon after the train left Brixton Station, Helene wrote in her statement, I heard screams. Very, very loud voices. They were those of a woman and very high pitched. I have never heard such screams. They were the screams of fear. They stopped, then started again. They lasted one minute to two minutes. I thought it was a young man who wanted to tease a young girl. Then I realized it was more serious. I thought it was a woman being raped. I wanted to raise the alarm, but remain glued to my seat. I was really afraid and waited to get to Victoria. When Helene got off the train, her attention was immediately drawn to a man with untidy red hair. He seemed to have got out of the compartment behind mine. I saw him sideways on. He was a white man, about 40 years old, well built, fat rather than muscular. His hair was red, like the Duchess of York's. That's Fergie.

[Mike Gibson]

It is, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Sarah Ferguson.

[Mike Gibson]

That's some pretty good details right there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it is. Normally, though, here in the States, if somebody was fat, you wouldn't call them well built.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that. That seems kind of strange. Well built, fat rather than muscular. But maybe it means. Well built means something different there over there. But I do want to go back to what she said. I get it. In the beginning, she. She didn't think it was all that much, but even by her own words, she realized that it was serious. And to the point where she said, I thought it was a woman being raped.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I get it. I understand, you know, you're going to be frozen to your seat when you hear something like that for some people. But when she gets off the train, you know, she sees this guy. Maybe once she feels in a safe place, she goes to the authorities and say, this. This is what I heard. This is what I think before leaving the station.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but she didn't do that. She actually didn't contact police until that night when her employer told her there had been a murder on a train. So, back to your point, Gibbs. It is kind of. You know, it's hard to believe she didn't contact or try to flag down authorities right there at the station. Now, she was. She was only 19 years old.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I'm not putting all of this on her, but it's hard not to discuss it. Right. In a perfect world, obviously, it would have been better if she would have alerted someone sooner. She did ultimately contact police that same night. A pathologist testified that Deborah made a very fierce and determined effort to defend herself. And you said it right. She fought with everything she had.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. She's tough.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I think she knew most likely that she was fighting for her life. Coroner David Knapman criticized Helene and members of the public who witnessed crimes but failed to do anything when issuing the verdict of unlawful killing. Coroner Knapman said had she acted differently, it would have been of enormous assistance in helping the police. I've often heard it said by police that the attitude of it's none of my business is far too prevalent these days. When a crime is committed, it's everybody's business. And I get what he's saying, he's not wrong. But it's still difficult to come down that hard on a 19 year old girl who I think Gibbs, by her very own admission, was frozen with fear.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And I think you have to be careful too. Right. I mean, she eventually came forward. If you make people feel too bad and they think that's how it's going

[Mike Ferguson]

to always be, like I'm not going to come forward at all.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And then you're not going to have anything to gain out of that.

[Mike Ferguson]

But again, he's not wrong. But I think you said it perfectly. You do have to be a little careful.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. And how you phrase it, or how hard you come down on someone. A year after Debra was killed in March 1989, investigators admitted they were no closer to catching the suspect than they were a year earlier. Detectives had not ruled out a sexual motive for the frenzied attack. Detective Constable Alan Goodley said, per the Bromley and Hayes new Shopper, we're looking for a maniac, a ruthless killer responsible for what appears to be a motiveless killing.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, it could have been a sexual attack. Well, I just wondered if. Because she fought back so well that it kept him from doing what he initially set out to do.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's definitely possible. But I do have a problem with this statement.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

For what appears to be a motiveless killing. Well, it only appears that way because you don't know what the motive is.

[Mike Gibson]

That's spot on.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's very unlikely that it's motiveless. I mean, we don't know what the motive is, but it could be sexual in nature.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could be that, as we've heard people say, they wanted to find out what it feels like to kill someone.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And as strange as that sounds, technically that would be a motive. So a very strange one. Detectives had traced all but 20 of the 70 passengers on the train. They had been in contact with investigators working other murder and rape cases, but their inquiries were fruitless. The police obtained 1200 witness statements and questioned and eliminated 650 individuals.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a lot of investigating.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I Mean, they're doing a lot of work. It does surprise me that there's still 20 out of the 70 people that they haven't been able to talk to at that point. Their strongest line of inquiry so far was the evidence given by Helene. And I don't know how it couldn't be. She's really the only one that has provided much of anything.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And as we mentioned, she described the suspect as white, about 40, with ginger hair and a mustache. He was between 5, 11 and 6 foot. He was wearing a light colored windbreaker and gray pants. Police believe that if someone saw him on the afternoon of the murder, he would have been bloody and injured. And that goes back to my point. I mean, you are not murdering someone in that cramped, somewhat confined compartment when that person is struggling mightily and walking away from that thing without blood all over you. It's just not going to happen.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you've got to have evidence on you.

[Mike Ferguson]

D.C. goodley implored the suspect to come forward, saying, we haven't traced this man so far. He got off at Victoria. We appeal to him to come forward or for anyone who may have seen him to contact us. And I get the last part. I think the appeal for the murderer to come forward, it might sound good, but I mean, those people rarely do they, they kind of value their freedom.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think if he wanted to come forward, he would just stayed.

[Mike Ferguson]

I would more likely focus in on the people who were at Victoria Station and may or may not have seen a man with blood all over him walking away.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, but if you don't ask, someone could say, why didn't you just ask him to come forward? Maybe he would if you would ask.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's true. In July 1989, police issued a sketch of a man who beat and attempted to rape a 28 year old woman on a first class train compartment. The victim needed stitches for cuts she suffered, including one just over her eye. The woman was attacked without warning as she traveled home on the 11:50 train from Victoria to Bromley south earlier that month. As the train left the station, the man put his arms around her and assaulted her before punching her to the floor. He then kicked her in the face and knocked her unconscious as he tried to rip off her cloak. He fled when the train pulled into South Bromley Station after being spotted by another passenger in the guard. They chased him, but the man escaped across the tracks into nearby fields and out onto Elmfield Road. He was described as clean shaven, of Mediterranean appearance, 20 to 25 years old, 5 foot 4 to 5 foot 6 with dark brown or black hair cut to a point at the front. He was wearing dark pants and a white jacket, which may have been stained with blood.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, seems like day and night on the description, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, I'm with you. Age is off, the height is off, the hair color is way off. I mean, nobody's mistaking dark brown or black for ginger. He's also described as being of Mediterranean descent. But this was a vicious attack, no doubt about it. But I want to put it into perspective. This was an assault. Punching, kicking to the point where this woman was left unconscious and he was stained with blood.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So juxtapose that against 11 stab wounds. And again, there's no way that that person is leaving the train without blood on him. It's just not happening.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

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[Mike Ferguson]

today, people with information were asked to call the incident room of Victoria, where where police were looking at possible links with the murder of Deborah Lindsley. But I'm with you, Gibbs. I don't know how they could be linked. Unless the person Helene gave the description of had nothing to do with the murder. Or there was two of them. Yeah, because these two people being described couldn't be any different from each other. Ultimately, it seems that authorities didn't officially link this attack to Debra's murder. In March 1990, Debra's mother Marguerite told the Evening Standard she read in depth about the murders of the Yorkshire Ripper and Jeremy Bamber to try to understand the mind of a killer. She was also an active member of the Parents of Murdered Children group. She wanted Deborah's killer caught before he could strike again.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, to try to get into the, the minds of those two individuals.

[Voicemail Caller]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, we talk a lot about parents just trying to do anything they can. I don't know if we've talked about many parents studying up on serial killers though, and trying to get into their minds in the hopes that it will somehow, you know, help them catch this killer. Lead investigator Superintendent Alec Edwards admitted the search had been wound down, but not wound up. There were just three detectives working with very few clues. But they did have the DNA profile of the killer. And again, that does not surprise me. You know, as the years go on, in some way the investigation has to wind down. Right. It can't keep at the same pace with the same amount of personnel for years and years on end. It just doesn't happen that well, unfortunately, because there's always new cases and things to work. But the fact that they had the person's DNA, that is such a big deal. It is a big deal now, unfortunately. They were working with, you know, 1988, 1990 DNA technology, which we know is nowhere near, you know, what it is today. Exactly when the killer struck is unknown. But police do know that Debra didn't have time to smoke two cigarettes or eat part of a sandwich on the 12 mile journey which took less than 30 minutes. It was thought she was killed in four to six minutes. Edwards said the amount of the attacker's blood in the carriage suggested quite a reasonable flow in a nasty injury. We still feel somebody must know or be very suspicious of someone close to them. This may have been the start of a robbery or a sexual attack or both. Although we have accounted for all of Debra's property.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I get it. I think somebody out there probably saw this individual after this attack when he had to clean himself up with some

[Mike Ferguson]

type of nasty injury. Yeah, I mean, I have no idea what the injury would have been. If I had to guess, to me, the most likely injury in a stabbing would be to the perpetrator's hand. You know, the, the knife gets slippery and it slides down on the blade and the, the killer gets cut. That, that happens quite frequently. I don't know that to be the case here, but it is in a lot of instances.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I, I kind of agree with you on that. Or maybe she was able to bite him and really tear into his skin somehow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or maybe just redirect one of the, the stabbing motions and he ended up stabbing himself in the leg. Or, you know, it could be a bunch of different scenarios. We just don't know. Marguerite said in her interview with the Evening Standard, you can't really lay it at British Rail's door that a murderer chose to get on their train. The only reason you could blame them is to say that they have still got non corridor trains in service, but there have been attacks in open carriages as well. It's not vengeance that I'm after. What is the point of that? Debbie's gone. But seeing someone brought to justice is all part of the healing process and coming to terms with what has happened. Most of the time I managed to block it out. I have to. It's the only way I managed to survive.

[Mike Gibson]

Being honest there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, being honest. I also think, you know, it's a, it's a pretty healthy way of looking at this. A lot of times, you know, people want to blame someone. You can't blame the attacker because you don't know who it is. So it would be easy for her to go after British Rail.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And say, you know, if you'd only done this or whatever, but she's not really doing that. And I think that's a healthy attitude because I think I agree with what she said. And you can't stop someone from doing harm to someone else.

[Voicemail Caller]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

You could put safeguards in place, don't get me wrong. But no one, no matter what they do, can stop every possible bad thing that could happen.

[Mike Gibson]

I think her focus is, let's find the person that did this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Investigators reopened Deborah's case in 2002 because of advances in DNA technology. Investigators now had a full DNA profile obtained from the killer's blood at the crime scene. The case was transferred to the Metropolitan Police's Cold Case Investigative Section. A publicity campaign was launched at Victoria Station and a crime scene reenactment was shown on television. And how many times have we talked about shows like America's Most Wanted here in the, in the States? I don't know what show it was on, but anytime you can get a case shown on television or, or really highlighted to a bigger audience, that's a good thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. More exposure.

[Mike Ferguson]

The Murder Review Group, a civilian group made up of individuals with law enforcement experience, also looked into Debra's case. One of the people looking into her murder was Keith Chamberlain, who served with the Cambridgeshire Police for 32 years, most of them as an investigator. He told the guardian that they went back to the platform where Deborah boarded the train and looked into the known passengers who traveled that day. He said about the attack. When we saw how quick that was, six minutes, it got us thinking that maybe it was someone she knew, an old boyfriend, a nutter from school.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's a possibility, right? Maybe she felt comfortable for part of that trip and then that individual flipped on her.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, obviously, if you're in a six person compartment and someone walks in who you know or knew in the past, is your guard going to be maybe down more so than it would be if it's a complete stranger? I would say the answer is probably yes.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

They might have even started talking about old times or. Or whatever. They interviewed old friends to see if anyone knew anything. Chamberlain said there are witnesses who may have been young and easily influenced at the time, who will now be older. Chamberlain also told Debra's parents about the cold case review. They were really pleased, he said. I told them I didn't want to build their hopes up, but that I still think it should be looked at. The thing is, as well as being pleased, they were also realistic. They need to get Luther on this case.

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Did you ever watch that?

[Mike Gibson]

I've seen like the, you know, the promos for it, but I never watched it.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's. It's very good.

[Mike Gibson]

I have to check it out.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know you watch a lot of British shows. I do too, yeah. Especially the. The kind of police or investigative shows they do. Some really good ones.

[Mike Gibson]

They do, actually. Was just watching Deep State not too long ago. That's a good one.

[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators are reasonably sure the known killer theory can be eliminated, though, because after so many years, they would have found some sort of conflict in Debra's life. So, at least to them, this meant the killer was likely a stranger. Based on the ferocity of the attack, the killer would likely have committed other crimes and been detained, which meant his DNA should be on file. But no match has come up in the database. Marguerite told The Guardian in 2003. Right from the beginning, we thought it was a stranger. But the police followed a set pattern, working outwards from family and friends. I wanted them to take blood from all the men in Orpington, but they said it was too expensive.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I like her, thought I do too.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you can't blame her as the mother. Marguerite said the officers were detached. She said, I got a bit Cross with the first lot because they said we mustn't get emotionally involved. Arthur added, back then the victims families were a bloody nuisance who got in the way so they drip fed us information as they felt necessary. He noted that at one point the lead investigator retired and they weren't told so they had no idea who was investigating.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that's wrong.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't agree with that part. Now, are investigators going to be as emotionally involved as the family? No, of course not. That's never going to happen. They also have a lot more to work on than just that one case. But for the, you know, for somebody to retire who's leading the case and somebody else to take over and, and you know, not have that communication. Yeah, I think that's bad policy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think there should be a handoff. Right. Hey, I'm retiring. But this is such and such. He's got you from here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or she.

[Mike Gibson]

Or she. Or they. Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Marguerite told the guardian that they've taught themselves a lot about police processes over the years and, and had correspondence with a killer who told them about a ruse prisoners used to influence the results of DNA testing. She explained that prisoners spit into each other's mouths before swabs are taken to contaminate samples.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey bud, I gotta do a DNA swab. Can you give me a nice little hack in my mouth?

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh my gosh. Well, if you don't want to get caught for something, I guess that's one

[Mike Gibson]

way to get around it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. It's not something that I can imagine myself doing, but I also wouldn't put myself in position to be in prison where I have to either spit in another man's mouth or have that man spit in my mouth.

[Mike Gibson]

Also thinking though, if you're in prison,

[Mike Ferguson]

there's probably more going on than that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I thought that too, but I wasn't going to bring it up, but I'm glad you did.

[Mike Gibson]

Potentially, I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's probably the least of all their worries. Marguerite said she didn't relish the thought of an arrest and the trial that would follow because it wouldn't bring Debra back. But she was pleased the case was being reviewed. She was asked how she felt about the theory that the killer may be dead. Marguerite said death would be too easy of an escape. Adding people tell me to get rid of my anger, but I'm staying angry. I have a right to be angry. And to be honest with you, I feel for her. But I also like everything that she has said. Yeah, she has a really good attitude about things. She does now. It's great to say, you got to get rid of that anger, but that's easier said than done. She's owning it. She said, I'm angry, I'm staying angry, and I have a right to be angry.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing.

[Mike Ferguson]

In a 2013 appeal for information, Arthur Lindsley said about the unknown suspect, as quoted by the BBC. So here we have a probable repeat violent offender, and we have his full DNA profile, but he's not on the DNA database. I find that very puzzling. There must be a partner, relative or friend out there who knows of someone who returned home with an unexplained injury. And we're appealing for that person or persons to come forward. And I think aside from this person's DNA being added to the database, that is the best, most likely thing to produce a suspect. Right. Somebody comes forward and says, I remember my old boyfriend or my ex husband or whoever it is, came home one night, had a huge cut on his hand and had blood all over his clothes, and it just happened to be the night that this woman was killed on the train. But does it surprise you that someone could be a killer, but yet not have their DNA in the database?

[Mike Gibson]

No, it doesn't surprise me.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, it doesn't surprise me either. It just means they haven't been caught.

[Voicemail Caller]

Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, it could be that they never did it again. It could be that they went on to murder other people, but they've been very careful, number one, not to get caught, and number two, not to get involved in anything where their DNA would get uploaded, you know, in any database.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Five years later, in 2018, Arthur issued another appeal for information, saying, my daughter was murdered 30 years ago. And despite the DNA profile of the suspect being available, the person responsible has still not been found. I appealed in 2013 for those who had suspicions about a partner, a friend or a relative to please come forward. And I renew that appeal now on this anniversary of Debbie's death. And I think those appeals are good. Right. It's always good to keep your loved one's case in the public eye as much as you can, because you don't know how the relationship a person had with, let's say, the killer may have changed over the years, someone they were very close to. Now, today they're not. And they're possibly more willing to come forward with information. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, as of the timing of this episode, the murder of Deborah Lindsley remains unsolved. However, it is possible that advancements in DNA testing, and especially for me, you know, the use of something like genetic genealogy could identify the killer one day. Now, it's also possible that someone could come forward with information that could help solve Deborah's murder. But to me, the most likely thing would be the genetic genealogy route, trying to narrow it down to someone's family tree and then working from there, because, you know, this person could already be dead, or they could be alive, but doing everything in their power to stay off the radar and out of the database.

[Mike Gibson]

But if you can narrow it down, then you can start knocking on some doors, and maybe something comes from that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, we've been seeing it for years now. Yeah, with pretty good efficiency. So, you know, I think as far as unsolved cases go, the fact that they have the killer's DNA, you know, that's pretty rare. It is in a lot of these unsolved cases, and it gives me a lot of hope that this case is going to be solved one day.

[Mike Gibson]

The fact that they have it and they preserved it as long as they

[Mike Ferguson]

have and we're able to get a viable sample. Yeah, that gives me a lot of hope. So I do think it'll be solved. Now, will the killer be brought to justice? I don't know. Depends on if they're still alive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And still alive by the time, you know, they're identified. I have to believe if the person is still alive. They're pretty worried at this point in time, knowing what advancements have been made in DNA over the years.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know if it was me, I'd be scared to death that the next knock on my door is going to be the police.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, if they were in their 40s, let's say 40 and 88, that would put them at, what, almost 80?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, it's possible. I mean, you look at D', Angelo, the golden State Killer, the East Area rapist, He was caught and, you know, took a long time. He was in his, what, at least his 70s? Yeah, he might have been 80 or almost 80. I forget how old he was. But that's it for our episode on the murder of Deborah Lindsley. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Voicemail Caller]

Hey, Mike and Gibby, I love your podcast. Both of them. True crime all the time. And unsolved. I've been listening for years, probably since 2019, so I'm a big fan. I might be a little lost on it. I don't remember if you've ever covered the case of Sylvia Likens, a girl who is terribly abused in Indianapolis. And my grandmother was a juror on that trial and she would never talk about it. And, you know, I've done a lot of research and all that and it's just very interesting to me how, I don't know, people can be so evil and just terrible and do things to somebody that is just freaking crazy. But anyway, I love the podcast. I always have they safe. Keep your own time ticking. Come on.

[Mike Ferguson]

I appreciate the voicemail. So I played it on Unsolved because he mentioned Unsolved, but obviously that that's a solved case and we actually did cover that years and years ago.

[Mike Gibson]

Sickening.

[Mike Ferguson]

It was a horrible case to do. It was hard for us to do.

[Mike Gibson]

It was I.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you search it, you'll find it out there. But I believe, if I'm remembering correctly,

[Shopify Announcer]

her name was Gertrude Baniszewski.

[Mike Ferguson]

Is. Is the woman's name and probably the title of the episode. Yeah, but yeah, it was. It's the Case of Sylvia Likens. And, you know, one of the most horrific. I think one of those at the top that we've done.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Voicemail Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But we appreciate the voicemail very, very much.

[Mike Gibson]

We do.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime, all the Time Unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

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