Dottie Caylor

Summary

True Crime All The Time Unsolved
Episode 453: Dottie Caylor
PodcastOne | Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson
Release Date: February 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the troubling unsolved disappearance of Dorothy “Dottie” May Caylor (née Kaler), who vanished in Concord, California, in June 1985. Hosts Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson ("Gibby") methodically walk through the events leading to her disappearance, the subsequent investigation, and the cloud of suspicion surrounding her husband, Jewel Kaler. The hosts blend detailed case analysis with their trademark conversational style, examining each theory and piece of evidence with seriousness while keeping the discussion accessible.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Introduction to Dottie and Her Disappearance

• Dottie Caylor: Born 1944 in Ohio, devout Catholic, legal secretary, later suffered from severe agoraphobia.
• Disappearance (06/12/1985):
  • Husband Jewel claimed to have dropped her at the Pleasant Hill BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) Station for a trip to visit a friend.
  • No evidence she ever boarded a train; she was never seen or heard from again.
  • Marriage described as troubled, with a history of abuse allegations and impending divorce.

Quote (Mike Ferguson, 02:49):
"On June 12, 1985, Jewel Kaler dropped his wife Dottie off at a train station... investigators learned more about the Kalers' troubled marriage, they began to suspect Jewel had something to do with his wife's disappearance."

2. Marriage History and Underlying Tensions

• Jewel and Dottie met in 1970; Jewel used a fake name initially and concealed his first marriage (05:21).
• Multiple allegations of domestic violence, notably a 1981 incident where Dottie drove herself to the hospital after being struck (09:33).
• Dottie suffered from agoraphobia; Jewel often worked away from home, increasing isolation and marital strain (07:22, 09:00).

Quote (Mike Ferguson quoting Unsolved Mysteries, 08:31):
“Dottie had what doctors have called agoraphobia. She would stay inside most of the time. She couldn’t even apply for a job, much less hold one down. It was a real problem.”

3. Signs of Separation and Preparation to Leave

• Dottie secretly joined a women's support group, established a new bank account, redirected mail to a P.O. box, and began assembling important documents and money without Jewel's knowledge (13:36).
• Both were pursuing separate relationships—Jewel was engaged to another woman months before Dottie vanished (15:18).
• Divorce proceedings underway; Dottie packing Jewel's belongings for storage, setting legal division of property (18:08).

4. Day of Disappearance & Unfolding Investigation

• Timeline (June 12-17, 1985):
  • Dottie last seen at BART station. Took overnight bag, purse with crucial items (bee sting kit left behind).
  • Jewel claims to find her car and purse later; leaves odd notes mixing affection with frustration and blame (23:56).
  • He waits five days to report her missing, quickly packs and repaints the house, and moves to Utah (25:13, 26:00).

Quote (Mike Ferguson, 24:08):
“If you’re going to leave a note, why would you put some of this stuff in a note that just... it seems strange to me.”

• Her friends quickly grow suspicious: Dottie’s purse and money remain untouched, and she had no contact with anyone (24:55, 28:06).

5. Suspicion on Husband Jewel Kaler

• Jewel’s statements to media and police are often inconsistent and callous. He described Dottie as a “problem” now “behind him” after moving to Utah (29:40).
• He never had Dottie declared deceased, but eventually filed for divorce on grounds of desertion, receiving their marital assets 18 years after her disappearance (32:43).
• Behavioral red flags: quick liquidation of property, suggesting Dottie wanted him “to see other women,” conflicting reports about who drove which car to the station (38:12).

Quote (Mike Ferguson, 29:40):
“Since I’ve... gotten settled and into a new job, and that whole problem is behind me, things are really pretty good. So I have... one glaring thing that jumps out at me—how would you say now the whole problem is behind me when there’s no resolution to her disappearance?”

6. Police Reinvestigation & Public Fallout

• In 2004, after Jewel ran for office in Utah, the Concord PD reopened the case, describing Dottie’s disappearance as “suspicious.” (34:08)
• Allegations surfaced that Jewel poured a concrete patio shortly after Dottie went missing, leading detectives to suspect a burial on the property.
• Jewel’s public statements become inconsistent—sometimes saying he drove her, sometimes saying she drove herself (37:57).
• A mysterious, detailed letter (and map) postmarked 1988 claimed Dottie was killed and buried under a birch tree, with some handwriting similarities to Jewel. DNA from stamp did not match him (49:46–51:56).

7. The 29-Point Affidavit Against Jewel

Detectives listed 29 reasons suspecting Jewel in her murder:

• Documented violence and Dottie’s fear of him.
• Jewel’s secret engagement and “herculean” efforts to be with his fiancée, writing he’d “do anything for her, even kill.”
• Contradictory statements to police and suspicious actions post-disappearance.
• Rental agreement for house signed before Dottie was missing.
• Implausible story regarding both their cars at the train station. (47:06–49:35)

8. Dead Ends, Decades Later

• 2005: Investigators obtained a warrant, excavated yard and checked for blood evidence; nothing found (44:56).
• Dottie’s sister Diane fought to have Dottie declared deceased and continued to blame Jewel (40:43).
• Despite years of suspicion, Jewel is only ever a “person of interest”—never named a suspect.

Quote (Mike Ferguson quoting Detective Messick, 53:02):
“It’s still a matter of what we can prove and what we can’t prove. And I think, you know, when you really boil anything down as far as a case goes, I mean, that’s the bottom line.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the contradictions in Jewel’s story
  (Mike Ferguson, 55:13):
  “If he drove her to the train station, did he drive her car or his car? And depending on the answer to that, then how did the other car ultimately show up at the train station?”

• On emotional detachment
  (Mike Ferguson, 56:17):
  “But to talk about the fact that you don’t remember that your wife at the time went missing, that, to me, is so implausible.”
  (Mike Gibson: “Yeah, I kind of call it bullshit.”)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Background on Dottie & Relationship: 03:13–09:00
• Domestic Violence & Marital Strain: 09:33–13:34
• Dottie’s Preparation for Independence: 13:36–16:25
• The Day Dottie Disappeared: 18:38–23:56
• Jewel’s Odd Behavior After Disappearance: 24:55–26:29
• Police Perspective & 29 Point Affidavit Details: 45:43–49:35
• The 1988 Anonymous Letter: 49:46–51:56
• Investigative Dead Ends & Final Thoughts: 53:01–57:33

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Overall Tone and Conclusion

Mike and Gibby maintain their signature balance of seriousness with moments of levity, but remain clear-eyed about the gravity and lingering injustice of the case. They express frustration at the accumulation of suspicious behavior—much of which is incriminating when viewed collectively—yet acknowledge the persistent lack of evidence. The hosts ultimately invite listeners to form their own conclusions, noting time is running out for answers as primary individuals age and evidence fades.

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If You Have Any Information

Concord Police Department: [phone]
Case Number: 85-12-5575

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For True Crime Fans and Newcomers Alike

This episode is a thorough, sobering look at a decades-old mystery, mixing detail, skepticism, and empathy for both the victim and those left behind. The hosts' candid analysis and exploration of the unanswered questions will be valuable for both dedicated followers and newcomers to the case.

Transcript

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 453 of the True Crime all the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey. I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great. You know, we just got done finishing our TCAT episode. We did, which is a big one. It's on the abduction and murder of Jacob Wetterling, which was a, you know, a very well publicized case and you know, took a long time for them to figure out who the perpetrator was. We also have another TCAT episode coming out this Thursday and it's on Frank Freshwaters. This is a guy who, you know, went to prison, got onto one of those kind of honor farm type deals and then escaped and then he was on the run for like 50 years. It's a fascinating story.

[Mike Gibson]

It is 50 years, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

So make sure you check that out on Thursday. It'll be on both the regular podcast feed but also on video on YouTube. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Bruce Swicker.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Bruce.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jack Glanville.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Jack?

[Mike Ferguson]

Sarah Woods.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, appreciate that, Sarah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Tammy Forkham.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, Tammy, how you doing?

[Mike Ferguson]

Katie Armstrong.

[Mike Gibson]

I appreciate that, Katie.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hunter Hoffman.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, good old Hunter.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kcp.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Casey.

[Mike Ferguson]

J. Law.

[Mike Gibson]

Jay. I feel like that's like JLo.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I did too because I kind of said it like that a little bit.

[Mike Gibson]

Thanks, J. Law.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Tara Henry.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, Tara, thank you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, we appreciate that new support. And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Vicki Armstrong.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, Vicki, that's awesome.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, we appreciate the long term support as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Love it.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time Unsolved?

[Mike Gibson]

I am ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

On June 12, 1985, Jewel Kaler dropped his wife Dottie off at a train station where she supposedly purchased a ticket to visit a friend. However, there was no evidence Dottie ever boarded the train. As investigators learned more about the Kalers troubled marriage, they began to suspect Jewel had something to do with his wife's disappearance.

[Mike Gibson]

Is that shocking to you? That they look at the spouse.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no. Obviously everybody knows. Right. You don't even have to be a real true crime buff to know that when one spouse goes missing and or is murdered, their wife or husband is going to be looked at. It's just, you know, at the very least, that person has to be ruled out. Dorothy May Kaler, who went by the name Dottie, was born on January 9, 1944. She was 41 years old when she went missing. Dottie was born in Chardon, Ohio. She was described as a devout Catholic who loved to read and write. After graduating high school, Dottie attended secretarial school and got a job as a legal secretary. Do they still have Gibbs secretarial schools?

[Mike Gibson]

Didn't you go to one for a little bit?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I'm saying, do they still have them now?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, they probably call them something different

[Mike Ferguson]

than that because that was a, that was a big deal. Right. When you think 50s, 60s, a lot of women went into that field.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure they did.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's not the case today.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I'm kind of visualizing Mad Men.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's what I was thinking too in my head. Obviously things have changed greatly.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

With the types of jobs that women are going into. So my thought is they probably don't have those anymore. Or like you said, if they do, they're calling it something different.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think it's more like a administrative assistant.

[Mike Ferguson]

I just don't know that they have a school just for that though anymore. But they had like actual secretarial schools back in the day.

[Mike Gibson]

Do you remember typing, actually? I mean, typing on typewriters.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do typing. I remember typing class.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

In high school my dad was a typing teacher.

[Mike Gibson]

Was he really? Okay. I just remember taking that class and typing and.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you, you know, you also used an abacus. Well, that was before calculators came out. Dottie met Jewel in 1970 when he was a grad student at UC Berkeley. He, he introduced himself as Jim Rupp. He later admitted to using a fake name because he didn't want Dottie to know he was married and had a five year old daughter.

[Mike Gibson]

That kind of kicks the relationship off. Kind of not in a great place though, right? If you're going to go ahead and lie about who you are from the beginning.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think for a lot of relationships that could be a deal breaker.

[Mike Gibson]

By the way, that's not my real name and I'm married and I've got a child too. Do you still want to go out?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, Dottie didn't learn the Truth. Until they had been dating for several months, and by that point, she had fallen in love. Jewel agreed to divorce his wife at Dottie's insistence. They got married in 1973 and moved to Concord, California, a suburb of Oakland.

[Mike Gibson]

I may find it somewhat humorous that he was only willing to get divorced upon her being insistent of that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I'm assuming at that point, once she finds out there's an ultimatum. I mean, I love you, but if you want this to continue, you got to get a divorce.

[Mike Gibson]

Is that kind of like saying you can't have your cake and eat it, too?

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's what he was trying to do. But as we move forward, Gibbs, I think you kind of have to keep that in the back of your mind. What type of guy is this? Because we already know that he's going to be on police radar.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jewel worked for the San Francisco office of the US Forest Service as an entomologist, an aerial photography specialist. Those things don't seem to go together.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, if we were playing that game, you know what, things don't belong with each other, that would be that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Entomology and aerial photography. Dottie suffered from agoraphobia, an anxiety disorder that involves fear and avoiding places or situations that might cause panic and feelings of being trapped. This made it difficult for Di to go out and perform tasks in public spaces. And it was sad that Dottie's home became a prison. Now, I think agoraphobia, obviously, there are different degrees. I've made no secret of it. I have a. A touch of that.

[Mike Gibson]

You do?

[Mike Ferguson]

I do not like to be in cramped spaces. I don't like to be, like, in stadiums where there's just throngs of people. I do it, but I get anxiety. Now, I think when you're at the point where it becomes hard to leave your house. Okay. I've never experienced anything like that. And that must be extremely tough for someone.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think it would be very difficult to live like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jewel told Unsolved Mysteries. Dottie had what doctors have called agoraphobia. She would stay inside most of the time. She couldn't even apply for a job more, much less hold one down. It was a real problem.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I'm thinking back then didn't have remote type jobs. Right. So you were very limited.

[Mike Ferguson]

But also seems like it might make a relationship a little bit tougher.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, that would put a lot of responsibility on Jewel. If he's out working, then he's got to do. I'm assuming he's doing the grocery Shopping, all the errand kind of stuff that needs to get done, and then, you know, coming home and. Do you kind of resent that person?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, yeah, that's what I think. I think it would. It would put a strain on any relationship. The marriage deteriorated over the years, and Dottie was often home alone because Jewel worked out of town over 50% of the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's a big chunk of. Of your time being away from the home.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. I. I could never do that. Dottie's sister alleged that Jewel was abusive towards Dottie, citing a report of domestic violence from Thanksgiving 1981, which was investigated by law enforcement. The Thanksgiving argument started over a missing checkbook. According to police reports, Jewel accused Dottie of hiding it. The argument got out of hand and it escalated to physical violence. Neighbors heard a loud argument and called the police. Before the officer arrived, Dottie had driven herself to the hospital to get stitches. She told police Jewel flew into a rage over the checkbook and hit her with a typing stand.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that wouldn't feel good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jewel claimed Dottie threatened him with scissors. So we have conflicting stories. Right. Which I don't think is that unusual in some of these cases of domestic violence.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I think you're going to get that. He said, she said he did this, she did that for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And both are claiming that they acted in self defense. Jewel told Unsolved Mysteries it was Dottie who started the fight. He said, she was standing over me with those scissors, swearing at me and saying, I'll kill you, you son of a bitch. I'll kill you. And I grabbed her little typing stamp and hit her with it.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I guess he. He must have felt like his life was in danger.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. If that's true. Right. If what he's saying is true. Now, obviously, if what Dottie was saying was true, then we have a completely different situation. It's also tough for police, I think, in some of these where one person saying one thing, the other person saying another. Dottie spent the night at a women's shelter, but neither she nor Jules decided to press charges and the case was dropped. Dottie's sister alleged there were numerous problems in the Kaler's marriage, which Jewel denied. He believed the difficulties in their marriage revolved around Dottie's mental health issues. According to unsolved mysteries, in 1984, Dottie joined a support group called Women in Transition. She attended meetings for over a year without telling Jewel she was attempting to regain her self confidence in making plans to divorce him. And I, to me, Gibbs this was very telling because I think it does speak to how much time they spent apart. We said, you know, he. Over 50% of the time he was traveling.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because how does someone attend meetings for a year without their spouse knowing? I know in my relationship, that just couldn't happen.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they would realize you're going out somewhere. Especially somebody like Dottie that had anxiety about going out. I think that would even stand out even more. So we.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. She didn't usually, or I think on a normal basis, voluntarily leave the house. So if she's doing so, that would probably raise even more red flags. Dottie's friend Shelly Wilson noticed a change in her demeanor. Dottie started wearing more colorful outfits and cut her hair in a new style, which was something she'd normally be afraid to do. Wilson recalled. It was as if a new Dottie was emerging.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, there's that confidence coming out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And, you know, there are probably some people who would say, well, that's a sign. You know, when people start to get in shape, when they change their look, it could mean that they're either already in another relationship or they're looking to get out of their current one and start another one, or just looking to do something new, you know, and it's

[Mike Gibson]

probably one of those scenarios.

[Mike Ferguson]

Dottie also secretly rented a post office box to receive mail without Jewel knowing. She asked a friend to keep a locked file cabinet with her important documents. Included in that Cabinet was a $5,000 cashier's check Dottie inherited and kept secret from Jule, which was due to expire in a few months. Dottie eventually opened a personal bank account and transferred the check into.

[Mike Gibson]

It definitely seems like Dottie wants out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And she's kind of putting things in motion before she actually leaves. But to me, it's a clear indicator that she's in the process of getting things ready to leave this relationship.

[Mike Gibson]

I kind of got the Julia Roberts vibe a little bit.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, a little bit. Jewel said he was later shocked to learn about Dottie's secret behavior. He told Unsolved Mysteries she had secret lives, a secret existence that I knew nothing about. And she wanted it that way. I wasn't even aware of it. I was just suspicious. Now, I think I have to point out, as we do in so many cases. Right. We can only hear the story from one person. That's true, and that's Jewel. He gets to talk to Unsolved Mysteries. Dottie is not around to tell her side of things. Now, we do learn things from people who Knew her and all that. But it turns out Jewel had his own secrets. Unbeknownst to Dottie, he had been engaged to a Colorado woman he met on a business trip since December 1984. They even bought one. Wedding rings.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, well, that doesn't sound kosher.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, most people don't like it when your spouse, who you are married to, gets engaged to another person.

[Mike Gibson]

Seems like a soon to be problem.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, maybe for Dottie, not I. I don't know, because she's. If she's looking to get out of the relationship now, she doesn't know about it though, right?

[Mike Gibson]

And he doesn't know about how she really feels.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, according to him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes, according to him.

[Mike Ferguson]

But he did say he was suspicious. So, you know, what does that mean? In May 1985, Jewel accepted a new position in Utah with the U.S. forest Service. When he informed Dottie of the job transfer, Dottie told him she wasn't interested in going with him.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, typically when somebody in a relationship decides to take a different job or a position elsewhere, you kind of talk about it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you said when somebody decides, I think you kind of talk about it before the decision is made.

[Mike Gibson]

True. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So to me, that fact alone, it shows you like at least a bit of the problems with the marriage. And then, you know, if it is accepted, obviously there has to be a discussion about, hey, are you willing to move with me to wherever. It sounds like none of that happened. He tells Dottie, hey, I took this job. And she says, okay, good for you. I'm not going. Jewel recalled the Unsolved Mysteries. So I wasn't expecting her to go with me and wouldn't even have wanted her to, I guess.

[Mike Gibson]

Such a weird way to say that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it just sounds like a marriage that neither one of them wants to be in. I mean, he's engaged to another woman. Dottie, I think by this point is tired of him, is making preparations to leave him. He takes this job. She says, I don't want to go. He is later telling Unsolved Mysteries. I wouldn't have even wanted her to. Let's put it this way, it's not the type of relationship that I have and that most people listening have now, maybe they were in one at one point that went south like this, but luckily I've never been in that position.

[Mike Gibson]

I think it would be a very difficult relationship to be in.

[Mike Ferguson]

So Dottie told Jewel she wanted a divorce. According to the Sun Gazette newspaper, the two saw a mediator to discuss the division of property. They agreed. Dottie would pay Jewel for his half of the house and she would continue living there.

[Mike Gibson]

Seems fair.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it does to me too. Again, I've never been through that situation, but I know all divorces are different, right? Some are somewhat amicable and people split things up. And then others, people fight tooth and nail and, you know, they want the, the books and the records and everything.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I tend to agree that sometimes they're. That sometimes they're not.

[Mike Ferguson]

Dottie packed up Jules things and put them in storage. She told family at the time that he threatened her, but he denied this. On June 12, 1985, Jewel drove Dottie to the Bay Area Rapid Transit Station in Pleasant Hill. She was reportedly going to visit a friend. It was just a few days before Jewel was going to move to Salt Lake City. Dottie took an overnight bag and her purse with her. The purse contained several important items including Dottie's medical card and and a bee sting kit. Jewel claimed he was certain Dottie had her purse and bag with her. He last saw her walking around the corner of the station. Bee sting kit seems very specific.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you just never know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, there are people for which a bee sting can be life threatening.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I would think those people would have to carry maybe something that most of us don't have to. Although a bee sting might hurt, it wouldn't hurt us that bad or couldn't potentially really kill us. But for some people it can be

[Mike Gibson]

life threatening, very dangerous.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

I'm guessing they just didn't have a really good tracking system back then.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's 1985, right?

[Mike Gibson]

We.

[Mike Ferguson]

We talk about this in so many episodes. In 40 years, technology has advanced on all types of different fronts. You think about pre 9 11, things were different in a lot of areas.

[Mike Gibson]

It's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Security. Do we need to keep track of who gets on the train? Maybe not. I'm sure today they do. Jewell worked in San Francisco on June 13. He claimed that upon his return, he found Dottie's blue 1963 Volkswagen Beetle parked next to his vehicle at the BART station. Dottie's purse was in the car, as well as her driver's license, a current Diablo Valley College student ID, $30 in cash, her library card, and a monogrammed off white leather billful. The bee sting kit was missing. Jewel hid her purse under the seat, left a note for Dottie on the vehicle, moved her car so she wouldn't get a parking ticket, and locked the doors. Authorities said that Jules note began in a pretty affectionate manner. He wrote that he was worried about her, then accused Dottie of messing up his life by refusing to sign loan papers. There was a postscript wherein Jewel maintained it was Dottie's idea, not his, for him to seek out other women.

[Mike Gibson]

Like you said, there's only one person that can tell the other side of the story, and I don't Know, is that true or is that what he wants people to believe?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, there's that question. But for me, the bigger thing is, if you're going to leave a note, why would you put some of this stuff in a note that just. It seems strange to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Unless you're trying to cover some activity up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. But, you know when you start out the note by saying, hey, I'm worried about you, and then all of a sudden run into, I can't believe you didn't sign these loan papers. And, oh, by the way, you know, don't forget it was your idea for me to see other women. That just seems strange. If he's got any worry at all. Don't you just stick with that theme, the worry theme? You don't go on to these other things in the note.

[Mike Gibson]

No, that's something you can talk about later.

[Mike Ferguson]

The car remained in the same spot on June 14, so Jewel moved it again. Donnie's friend, Shelly Wilson, found it strange that Dottie left her purse behind. It was something that helped her feel better when she was out, and she became upset if she ever forgot her purse.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of like a blanket, maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, something along the same lines. Over the next four days, Jewel left notes on Dottie's car asking her to contact him. He expressed his love for her and asked her to come home. Per Unsolved Mysteries, he reported dottie missing on June 17 after a neighbor urged him to do so. In his report, he claimed Dottie had gone to see a friend, but he didn't know who, and he wasn't expecting her back until June 24, and then he relocated to Utah. Less than two weeks after Dottie went missing. Jewel packed up most of Dottie's belongings inside the house prior to his move, repainted the house, and he put it up for rent.

[Mike Gibson]

It's kind of a pretty quick decision. I mean, she's been missing for, what,

[Mike Ferguson]

less than two weeks?

[Mike Gibson]

And you.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's also a very strange decision when you believe that somebody's coming back. Why are you packing up her belongings? And why would you be putting the house up for rent when, you know, per the divorce decree, she's paying him for his half and she's going to remain there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And you have to assume eventually she's going to come back and want to stay inside her house? I mean, it's only been a couple weeks. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Strange, right? Very strange. At first, Dottie's friends thought she left Jewel to escape her unhappy marriage and start a new life in Another city. But they became worried for her safety when she failed to contact anyone and never used any of the money she saved in her bank account. And I know, Gibbs, we hit on a lot of the same things in different episodes, but it's because they stand out. Right. So when a woman leaves her purse behind, what does that mean? Because most women don't. Right. They take their purse with them, or they take at least a little bag or a wallet or something. So when you leave that stuff behind. And today it would include, like, a cell phone. It wouldn't in 1985, but today it would. When you leave things behind that most people wouldn't, you have to analyze it and you have to ask the question, what does that mean in this grand scheme of things that are going on in the context of what we know? And then add on top of that, you know, we mentioned she had this $5,000 that she opened an account and put in. Okay, if you want to talk about starting another life, who is not going to use some of that $5,000.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And she didn't touch it.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's when you get to the point where, at least from my point of view, what makes sense and what doesn't. And I like to break a lot of stuff down kind of using that logic. Does it make sense that someone would do X or Y? Why does she need to leave the city to start a new life? If they're getting divorced and he's moving away and she's getting the house, but she's paying him for it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why just up and leave?

[Mike Gibson]

Doesn't make any sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

It doesn't. It really doesn't. So meanwhile, Jewel built a comfortable life for himself in Utah. He told Unsolved Mysteries it was hell living with Dottie. It was hell having her disappear the way that she did. And yet, since I've gotten here and gotten settled and into a new job and that whole problem is behind me, things are really pretty good. So I have, you know, one glaring thing that jumps out at me is Dottie goes missing. How would you say now the whole problem is behind me when there's no resolution to her disappearance? Is that something you would say about your wife or even your ex wife? Now, some people might say, yeah, I'd say that about my ex wife. But I don't know how you can say the whole problem is behind you when we don't know what happened to Dottie.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. You're right. I mean, this is not what you would expect to hear.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And I think if you're the authorities, you're going to scrutinize this type of language. Now, granted, this is coming, you know, down the road. He's talking to Unsolved Mysteries, but he's talking about that time frame, and he's saying, I moved, I got settled, I got a new job, and that whole problem was behind me. And you just don't expect to hear it like that. As months and years passed with no answers, Dottie's sister, Diane Rusnak, believed Jewel was to blame for Dottie's disappearance. She told Unsolved Mysteries, I think that Dottie could have disappeared to get even with her husband, who had disappeared on her for half of their married life. And I guess I understand that way of thinking. The argument to that that I would make is, how does that really get even with him? They're already going through the divorce. I don't know if it was finalized by this point, but he's already slated to move.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

So her just up and disappearing, I don't know how that gets even with him because he's going to go on with his life anyway.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I don't know how you're putting it to him at that moment, really. It sounds like you're hurting yourself more than him.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Because you. You're not touching the $5,000. You didn't take your car, you didn't take your. Your wallet, your purse. I mean, could she have thought, well, they'll arrest and convict him of my disappearance and. Or, you know, supposed murder, maybe. But at some point when that doesn't happen, okay, you think you might want some of that $5,000, thinking you would. Jewel retired from the U.S. forest Service in January 2004 after working for 33 years in remote sensing. He'd spent the past 19 years living in West Jordan, Utah. In the early 2000s, he was living with a woman, but had never remarried. And he never had Dottie declared legally deceased. But he eventually filed for divorce on the grounds of desertion. So I think that answers the question. Right. They weren't divorced at the time that Dottie disappeared, but obviously they had started going through the process. If, you know, he was set to move, there was an agreement that she would buy him out of half of the house. Court records show Dottie and Jewel were officially divorced. On January 7, 2003, the judge awarded all marital property to Jewel. Now, I think you can make a couple of arguments here. You know, one is that this didn't happen until 18 years after.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She went missing. So if he's after the House. If he's after money or, you know, something like that, does he wait that long? Because most people don't. In the cases that we've covered that have turned out to be, you know, murder for greed or, you know, something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, so maybe she did leave, or maybe there was a incident that happened at the house or somewhere that needed to be covered up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, it could have been that he knew he was going to have to pay, you know, alimony or something like that. And we've seen murder to get out of just Alamo.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure, we have.

[Mike Ferguson]

In 2004, Jewel Kaler ran as a libertarian candidate for the Utah House of Representatives. So he retires and then immediately runs for the House of Representatives.

[Mike Gibson]

He's like, now I'm going to do something else with my life.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which on the surface, you know, none of that seems irregular. The Concord Police Department reopened Dottie's case that same year. Detective Kurt Messick of the Concord PD described Dottie's disappearance as suspicious and told the Salt Lake Tribune, we haven't cleared him, but don't have enough to say he's responsible either.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that doesn't sound great. And I'm sure it's not going to help your attempt to run for a public office.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. You know, is it not going to come out that you're at the very least a person of interest in your wife's disappearance? I mean, what candidate wouldn't use that against their opponent?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

The other thought I had was it seems like it would be pretty hard to clear someone like Jewel because there's been no resolution. Right. They haven't figured out what happened to Dottie. So even if he didn't have something to do with it, how does he get out from that cloud of suspicion when they haven't found her?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think it'd be kind of tough. And I think if you just put the information out there, you know, if I was his opponent and I. I would create that message the way that it would generate suspicion. And, you know, people. It's just going to be natural to think, oh, the husband. The husband probably did do something.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, because very often the husband does do something. I mean, let's be honest. Or the spouse. I mean, it's been proven out in. In a lot of situations, and more often than not, it's the husband. Right. Because males, I think, by percentage, commit more violent crimes than females. That's just a. That's just a fact. Not that women can't be nasty because We've covered quite a few.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah, they can.

[Mike Ferguson]

Detective Messick described Dottie's case as cold, but said he was following new leads based on information disclosed in articles published in March 2004 in the Contra Costa Times. Specifically, police were looking into whether Jewel, as alleged in the article, poured a concrete patio in the backyard of the couple's home in Concord shortly after his wife disappeared. Police wanted to investigate the possibility of Dottie being under the patio. And I can tell you right now, if I'm a detective and I find out that somebody poured a patio right before somebody disappeared, my first thought is, that person's under that patio.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I'm digging that up or getting some X ray equipment or something. I'm gonna see what's there, because how

[Mike Ferguson]

many times has that turned out to be the case? I get it. Some people just pour a patio. But when you put the two together and they happen very close in time to each other, and especially when the patio is finished just after the person disappeared. Okay.

[Mike Gibson]

Suspicious.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Detective Messick noted that no one else was being investigated in Dottie's disappearance, adding, we may eventually contact him, but there are no immediate plans to do so. Depending on what we find under the patio, the we may eventually want to talk to him. I think that's kind of an understatement, I would say. So if they find Dottie's body under that patio, obviously they're going to want to talk to him. Jewel had also spoken with reporter Joan Morris from the Contra Costa Times. He told Morris he forgot about Dottie's disappearance and assumed she was deceased. In this interview, he claimed he never drove Donnie to the train station and thought she drove herself. All right, so there's two things here. One I've been waiting to touch on. The first is, how do you forget about your wife's disappearance? I don't even know how you make that statement. Oh, my gosh. I forgot that she disappeared.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it had to be a big moment in your life.

[Mike Ferguson]

The biggest, biggest.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, you talk to reporters and authority, you know, the different authorities. I mean, you're not going to remember that. Come on.

[Mike Ferguson]

And the second is this kind of discrepancy about whether he drove Dottie to the train station or whether she drove herself. Right. It was reported that he drove her, but then when he comes back, her car is next to his. Well, how do both cars get there if he drove her?

[Mike Gibson]

Seems strange. And then why are the cars parked next to each other? And why is he going down there and moving the car around every now

[Mike Ferguson]

and then, too, so that it doesn't get a ticket. He's being nice. He doesn't want her to get a ticket.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Mike Ferguson]

When the news came out after he announced he was running for state legislature, Jewell expressed his dismay at not being able to, quote, put the past behind him and blamed renewed police scrutiny on a smear campaign orchestrated by Dottie's sister Diane. I'm sure he did want to put the past behind him. Either way, if he had something to do with it or if he didn't, who. Who wouldn't want that past behind them?

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. You don't want it lingering out there.

[Mike Ferguson]

He told the Salt Lake Tribune, she felt sure that I must have made Dottie disappear. But she disappeared on her own. Dottie's probably still around, probably in this country or the Bay Area, just watching all this and smiling. But again, what would Dottie be getting out of this? This is, you know, going on how many decades probably when he's saying this, he got all the marital assets.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She never touched the money. Where's the win if she just disappears on her own and she's supposedly sitting back and smiling about all this? About what?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, there's no reason for her to disappear. If you believe what he is saying, that they were going to get divorced, you know, he was going to allow her to buy him out on the house and, you know, life would move on for both of them.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to the Charlie Project, Diane Rusnak filed a lawsuit against Jewel requesting that Dottie be declared legally dead and she be appointed executor of her estate. A judge found evidence that Dottie was deceased, but the lawsuit was stalled pending the outcome of the investigation. Diane described Jewel and Dottie's marriage as trouble and told the Salt Lake Tribune, I believe he's a prime suspect. We only have his story and information discovered in her files. Jewel said the only problem with his marriage was Dottie's unstable mental health. The Salt Lake Tribune reported that he admitted to being engaged to a woman six months before Dottie went missing. Never good. When your wife disappears and it turns out you're engaged to another woman, it's

[Mike Gibson]

going to look suspicious.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, it's not enough to convict somebody, obviously, but it doesn't make you look good. Jewel originally said he had no intention of pulling out of the race and told the ap, it's a travesty that my family and I are being made to suffer again for this matter long past.

[Mike Gibson]

It could be a matter long past, but it was never resolved.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, this whole thing of, you know, that's way in the past, this is all behind me. I just, you know, whether it's true or not, it's number one callous. But you're really putting yourself in a bad light because, you know, yeah, even if you weren't on the best of terms, this was your wife, and you're treating it as though, you know, this was a. A trip to Walmart that you don't even remember. News of the investigation came as a surprise to state Libertarian Party officials in the spring of 2004. Charles Bonsall, the party's executive director, said he wouldn't discourage Jewel from running because he hadn't been charged with a crime. But on April 17, 2004, Jewel withdrew his candidacy. He was unavailable for comment at that time, but party chairman Fran Tully told the Salt Lake Tribune the publicity was too much strain for his family. And I get that, you know, whether you did something or not, that strain is going to be rough on you and your family. Now, if you did something, it's deserved on at least yourself, maybe not your family. But if you didn't, then that's. That's really rough.

[Mike Gibson]

And you know what, you're on that public stage, so you're going to have all the reporters asking you about it and maybe some of your family members.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I don't know why you would decide to run for public office when there's even an inkling of suspicion that you did something to your wife. Why? Why would you open yourself up to that? How do you not know that that's going to, you know, come back and be a talking point? According to the Sun Gazette, Dottie's mother died in 2005 without ever knowing what happened to her. And unfortunately, we hear that all too often, right? A person who goes missing, family member or family members die, and they never know what happened to their loved one. In December 2005, police requested a search warrant for the couple's former home in Concord. Investigators dug up portions of the backyard and tested for blood and trace evidence inside the home, but nothing was found. At the time, Jewel still owned the home and was renting it. He could not be reached for comment. So There, you know, there's a couple things there. My first thought is, okay, I get it. You want to test the backyard, specifically the patio. That makes a lot of sense. Does now. What are the chances you're going to find Something inside after 20 years?

[Mike Gibson]

Pretty slim.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I, I mean, they have, they say that, you know, they can find blood for a long time, things like that, but. And then also him still owning the house and renting it out. Now, is that just a sound financial decision or is there another motive for wanting to keep control of that house?

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I was going to say it's definitely a controlling factor.

[Mike Ferguson]

The 140 page affidavit was sealed until it was filed in Contra Costa county superior court in May 2006. The affidavit included 29 reasons why police suspected Dottie was killed by her husband.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow, 29.

[Mike Ferguson]

That seems like a lot of different reasons.

[Mike Gibson]

Really does.

[Mike Ferguson]

The affidavit also contained two documents never before seen by the public. A four page letter Jewel left in Dottie's car, and a mysterious letter and map alleging Dottie was killed in her garage and, and buried under a birch tree. Detective Kurt Messick, who prepared the affidavit, cautioned that assertions made in the document were the police's theory of what happened. The Son Gazette quoted Messick as saying on an affidavit, we have to be specific. We have to state that we believe, one, that a crime occurred, two, that there is reasonable cause to believe that both this particular person was involved and three, that items related to the crime may be at that location. It doesn't mean a person is guilty. When we serve a search warrant, sometimes we find exculpatory evidence. We can't call Kaylor a suspect until we have enough to arrest and charge him. Then we would call him a suspect. And to me, you know, one of the interesting points are these 29 things that were listed kind of detailing out why the police suspected him. So we're going to read them out.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it just seems substantial.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Allegations Dottie made about her husband's propensity for violence and evidence she was battered by him on one occasion. Dottie telling her friends and family she was in fear of her husband. Jewel's engagement to another woman six months before Dottie went missing. The fact that Jewel reported Dottie missing five days after he last saw her, even though he told police he didn't expect her to return until after he left on June 24th, that's pretty conflicting. It is. Jewel signing a contract on June 7, 1985, to put the house up for rent, even though he told police and others he was forced to rent the house after Dottie disappeared because her signature was required to sell. The implausibility of his story about finding Dottie's car parked next to his in the train station parking lot. And I think there's a lot more that goes into that one, right? We kind of detailed some of the things out statements Jewel made in letters to and in conversation with his fiance, saying he made a, quote, herculean effort to be with her, which she might never know or understand, and that he would do anything for her, even kill.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

I get it. You know, some people are prone to hyperbole when they're talking, you know, to their loved one, especially when they're professing their love for them. You know, I love you to the moon and back, or I don't know what people say. I don't say those things anymore. But you know what I mean. My wife and I don't feel like we need to really stretch the truth anymore. We love each other. We know we love each other. But when you tell someone, you have no idea the lengths I've gone to be with you. And then on the other hand, you tell them, I would do anything for you. I'd even kill for you. Well, that would be one thing if it was in a vacuum, right? But here it's not. Your wife went missing. So. All right, make of that what you will.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it doesn't look good, doesn't sound good.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, neither one. These statements and the news of Dottie's disappearance frightened her so much that this woman ended her engagement with Jewel.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably wise.

[Mike Ferguson]

The filing also contained the typewritten letter postmarked January 4, 1988, from Gary, Indiana. The letter said, to whom it may concern, Dottie was killed by her husband the morning she disappeared. It happened very early in the morning. He brought her out to the garage and struck her with a tire iron. The letter accuses Jewel of taking Dottie's body to a remote area of Concord where new homes were being built. Instead of burying her under what would become the foundation of a house, he dumped her body in a ravine and dug a hole under the roots of a birch tree and. And hid the body there. Included with the letter was a hand drawn map of an unidentified neighborhood in Concord and a diagram of the garage showing the car and bloodstained. So, I mean, you know, we don't know who wrote this. Obviously. It's very detailed, right? It's very specific. And if true, it outlines, not even outlines. It details out exactly how Jewel murdered Dottie and, you know, disposed of her body. But then you have to wonder, or at least ask the question, who is this person and how did they gain this information? Were they told by Jewel? Were they part of it? Were they an accomplice?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's the. The big question, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Or is it all made up? A document examiner compared the writing on the map to known samples from Juul and said sufficient similarities existed between the two to warrant further investigation. Police also developed a male DNA profile from the stamp and label, but they've not matched it to anyone. Now, it should be noted that the letter was received shortly after the Unsolved Mysteries episode aired that featured Dottie's story. So I don't know what you make of that.

[Mike Gibson]

Could be two things, right? At least two things could be that someone seen the story and thought, I'm going to play around with these people.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes, unfortunately, we've seen things like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Or maybe it was somebody that remembered after seeing the show. I remember this. I remember this is what happened and I'm going to send this letter in.

[Mike Ferguson]

And maybe it was somebody who was feeling like, the guilt after seeing the show or something like that. Detective Messick said that although the December search turned up no physical evidence, the investigation was active and that they were working with an advisor to the DA's office and exploring options. Nothing has changed on that. We just didn't find her at the house. I realized there was a good chance we wouldn't, but that doesn't change anything. It's still a matter of what we can prove and what we can't prove. And I think, you know, when you really boil anything down as far as a case goes, I mean, that's the bottom line.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Stone Cold, what can you prove and what can't you prove? Because you can think all day long, this is the person who did it. Everybody believes this is the person who did it.

[Mike Gibson]

But if you can't prove it, there's

[Mike Ferguson]

not a lot you can do, right. It's been 40 years since Dottie Kaler disappeared. She would be 82 years old if she was still alive today. Dottie is described as a white female with brown hair and blue eyes. She has a scar above her left eye. At the time of her disappearance, she was 59 and £190. She was wearing plastic framed glasses. The Concord police are still treating Dottie's disappearance as a homicide. Jewel is not a suspect, but is considered a person of interest. And I think the word suspect should be used very carefully.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I agree.

[Mike Ferguson]

Person of interest is thrown around like crazy because there's, I think, a lot less liability with using that term.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I'm a person of interest in a lot of things.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, some you know about, some you don't know about. Some I've called in directly myself.

[Mike Gibson]

You just want that reward money?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Basically, anytime I see reward money, I just call in a tip that says, you should look at Mike Gibson. But if you have any information about Dottie's disappearance, call the Concord Police Department at 925-671-3240. The case number is 85-12-5575. So, Gibbs, as we wrap this one up, you know, what we're left with here is really kind of coming up with our own theory about what happened, because there's really very little facts Right. In this case. What you have are some things that I think it'd be safe to say don't make Jewel Kaler, you know, look real good at all.

[Mike Gibson]

No, he doesn't look good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just look at all the things we listed out right from the affidavit that they filed to go search his property. You know, I'm still kind of stuck on a number of them. If he drove her to the train station, did he drive her car or his car? And depending on the answer to that, then how did the other car ultimately show up at the train station?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, maybe he drove that down there, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then, you know, it's really. A lot of it is his demeanor. I get it. Some divorces are so contentious that that person may not have any feelings left whatsoever. Right. For the person that they're in the process of divorcing. I'm sure that can happen. But to talk about the fact that you don't remember that your wife at the time went missing, that, to me, is so implausible.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I kind of call it bullshit.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. On the BS meter, it just doesn't make sense. Right. And then talking about, well, you know, this is. I'm glad it's behind me. Well, what's behind you? You still don't know what happened to your wife, whether you loved her or not at that time. And then, you know, when you get engaged to somebody weeks or months before your wife goes missing. Okay. I mean, you just have to factor all of this stuff in. And what I would say is that none of it on its own is, you know, all that incriminating when you lump it all together. To me, it is. But, you know, like the detective said, they can't prove that he did anything to Dottie. So until that point, he is going to remain a person of interest.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. That's all he can be at this time.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I just said. Right. Dottie would be 82. I don't know how old he is, but we're assuming he's at least in his 80s. So, you know, I think that time is definitely ticking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

On this case, if he's involved. But that's it for our episode on Dottie Kaler. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Voicemail Caller (Bo Andrews)]

Hey, Mike and Gibby. This is Bo Andrews calling in from Jacksonville, Florida. I just wanted to say I absolutely adore Yalls podcast. I work night shifts at Amazon, and Yalls podcast episodes get me. Get me through my shifts, make the aisles go by quick. I listen to both unsolved and true crime all the time. I kind of jump around a lot. I just recently listened to the episode on Joe Grinovich. I think that's how it said. I'm terrible with last names. And I wasn't expecting the plot twist. I thought the whole cop he was, you know, he got killed in the line of duty just for it to turn out that. That he committed stages on suicide and made it look like a crime scene. It's. It's crazy thought. I'm. I love. I love you both equally. But I will say I am Team Gibby. Gibby makes me laugh constantly. I look like a crazy person when I'm sitting at my pack station hearing the banter back and forth between you guys. But you guys are both great. Yeah. Love the podcast. Keep up the good work. Stay safe. Keep your own time ticking.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right. Thanks for the voicemail. We love you too, brother. And you know what? I have to admit, Gibby makes me laugh a lot, too.

[Mike Gibson]

Sometimes I make you cry, though. Yeah, not in a good way.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Sometimes we almost come to blows over certain things, but that doesn't make the podcast. Nobody wants to hear that argument. But most of the time, we get along great. We have fun. But just like anyone in a relationship and you and I are in a relationship, we're friends. There is going to be times, you know, when we don't agree.

[Mike Gibson]

We're like peanut butter and jelly or apples and Jacks or.

[Mike Ferguson]

What the hell's apples and Jacks? I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

I was just thinking about apple Jacks, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, Apple Jacks are actually.

[Mike Gibson]

But I think that's actually just one thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is apples and Jack.

[Voicemail Caller (Bo Andrews)]

Jack.

[Mike Gibson]

We're like. I could say oil and vinegar, but that's the wrong direction.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes, that. Those don't mix.

[Mike Gibson]

No. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You could say Captain and Tenille if you, you know, if you want to date yourself.

[Mike Gibson]

But are you. Are you to kneel?

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I'm the captain.

[Mike Gibson]

See? There we go. That's. There's the problem.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime. All the time unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time. Ticking.

[Voicemail Caller (Bo Andrews)]

Sam.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. I swear, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

[Mike Gibson]

This is the mindset. Free.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is the mantra. Free. This is the mindset mindset. With movies like Interstellar Dreamgirls and Gladiator,

[Mike Gibson]

why are you not entertained?

[Mike Ferguson]

And TV shows like Survivor, SpongeBob SquarePants, the Fairly Odd Parents and Ghosts, Pluto TV is always free. Huzzah. Pluto TV. Stream now pay.

[Voicemail Caller (Bo Andrews)]

Never.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.