Mike Ferguson (1:35)

Demon juice.

Mike Gibson (1:36)

There's some juice.

Mike Ferguson (1:37)

Delilah Burke.

Mike Gibson (1:38)

Hey, Delilah.

Mike Ferguson (1:39)

Vanessa. Cool, just.

Mike Gibson (1:40)

Thanks. Cool. Just.

Mike Ferguson (1:41)

Elizabeth Martin.

Mike Gibson (1:42)

Hey, Elizabeth.

Mike Ferguson (1:43)

And last but not least, Rob Thunderheim.

Mike Gibson (1:45)

What's going on, Rob?

Mike Ferguson (1:46)

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Kristen Lewis.

Mike Gibson (1:51)

Lewis.

Mike Ferguson (1:52)

So appreciate all the support we get on Patreon. Speaking of Patreon, we dropped a brand new Patreon only episode Saturday night and it's on Derek Medina, who shot and killed his wife and then posted a picture of her body to Facebook and the media dubbed him the Facebook Killer.

Mike Gibson (2:12)

Such a disturbing case.

Mike Ferguson (2:13)

It really is. You know, if you're not a supporter on Patreon, now's a great time to join up.

Mike Gibson (2:19)

Absolutely. There's so many Patreon episodes out there.

Mike Ferguson (2:22)

I think we have almost 90.

Mike Gibson (2:24)

Yeah. Yeah, almost.

Mike Ferguson (2:25)

We also have a brand new episode out on True Crime all the Time where we're talking about the murders of the Ortiz family. And you know, this is a disturbing case, especially when you find out who the murderer actually is and some of his cohorts who are involved.

Mike Gibson (2:43)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (2:44)

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time unsolved?

Mike Gibson (2:48)

I am ready.

Mike Ferguson (2:48)

We're talking about Georgia Leah Moses. 12 year old Georgia Moses was last seen alive in August 1997. A friend walked with Georgia to a gas station near her home in Santa Rosa, California, where she Left with an unidentified man. Nine days later, a worker found human remains on the side of the highway that were later identified as Georgia's. So already right. Incredibly sad. You have a 12 year old girl who was most likely killed and her remains were left on the side of the highway. But you also have a real big mystery here, right. Who is this unidentified man that she was seen leaving with right at this gas station? Georgia Moses was born on January 7, 1985. Georgia spent most of her life in Rohnert Park, California. She attended middle school there. Friends and school officials described her as outgoing, athletic, and a leader among her peers. Georgia was described as an old soul who was mature and independent for her age.

Mike Gibson (3:59)

Sounds like you.

Mike Ferguson (4:00)

Yeah, maybe some people have called me that. You know, I, even as a younger kid was listening to Elvis and Sam Cooke and stuff that none of my other friends listen to. You know, my mom kind of got me into some of that stuff and I just really liked it.

Mike Gibson (4:16)

And you also used to wear a three piece suit and carried a briefcase to school like Michael Keaton.

Mike Ferguson (4:22)

Sure, I had, I did go through a Michael Keaton phase. Yeah, but there are people, even at a young age, Gibbs, who either act, you know, so much more mature than what their, their age actually is or they're, they go the other way. Yeah, and that is true at any age. Right. You have some people who act older than what they are and some people who act younger.

Mike Gibson (4:47)

And that's me.

Mike Ferguson (4:48)

Yes.

Mike Gibson (4:49)

I've always acted well beneath my age, unfortunately.

Mike Ferguson (4:53)

She was also said to have been extremely caring. She defended classmates from bullies, took care of her sick mother and cared for her younger sister, Angel Turner, who, who was only 7 when Georgia went missing. Sources reported that Georgia wanted to become a nurse when she grew up. And that doesn't surprise me. I mean, she seems to have been the type of person that wanted to care for people.

Mike Gibson (5:19)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (5:20)

And I think probably would have made an outstanding nurse.

Mike Gibson (5:24)

I believe so.

Mike Ferguson (5:25)

George's mother, Ida Moses, suffered from mental illness, Per the Press Democrat in 1991. Georgia and Ida had no housing and stayed at the Cotts family shelter. They eventually found housing in Rohnert park. By age 10, Georgia was running the household, collecting welfare checks, paying bills and caring for her little sister and her mother.

Mike Gibson (5:50)

Think about that for a minute. 10 years old. I mean, go back to when your kids were 10 years old. Can you imagine them basically taking care of the house, taking care of, getting the checks, paying the bills, and also taking care of, you know, the other daughter, your other daughter and your Wife at the same time.

Mike Ferguson (6:12)

No. No. They could barely make microwavable macaroni and cheese without making a mess back then. I mean, that's nothing to say negative about my daughters. They're amazing. But most 10 year olds don't think like that.

Mike Gibson (6:28)

No.

Mike Ferguson (6:29)

Now, she may have had no choice in this matter. Right. Some people are forced to grow up way earlier than they should.

Mike Gibson (6:38)

Just kind of. You're thrown into it. Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (6:40)

You just don't have a choice. Right. Nobody else is going to do it. So she had to step up. Angel Turner told Dateline she practically raised me. She took care of me. She cooked for me.

Mike Gibson (6:51)

She.

Mike Ferguson (6:51)

She loved me. She embodied what a mom was and she did it effortlessly. This is an amazing young girl.

Mike Gibson (7:00)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (7:01)

At the time of Georgia's disappearance, Angel and her mother were living in Santa Rosa, California. Georgia was living with a family friend, but she came over often to visit her sister. Ida lost her rental in Rohnert park and moved in with her boyfriend, Ed Pope in Santa Rosa. Sources reported that Pope was a convicted child molester and there was tension in the household that caused Georgia to move out. According to angel, back in March 1997, Georgia went into her room and her mother's boyfriend followed her in. Angel remembered there was yelling and things being thrown, and her mother's boyfriend told Georgia that if she wasn't going to follow his rules, she couldn't stay there. Angel later walked into the room and saw mustard on the wall. And it was pretty soon after this argument that Georgia moved out. And it was said that she had to pay rent to the family friends she was staying with at that young age. She's 12 years old.

Mike Gibson (8:01)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (8:02)

Now, I do want to go back to this tiff, if you want to call it that, that might trivialize it because we don't know exactly what it was. With her mother's boyfriend, if he really was a convicted child molester, as it has been reported, you just wonder, did something happen along those lines where he did or said something inappropriate that kind of prompted this blowout?

Mike Gibson (8:30)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (8:31)

And what does living by my rules actually mean?

Mike Gibson (8:35)

That's the problem I have with that statement. Right. What does that really mean?

Mike Ferguson (8:39)

Because that could be that you have to be home by X time, or it could be that you have to do some things that no child should ever have to do.

Mike Gibson (8:48)

Exactly. But if you want to live here, you're going to have to.

Mike Ferguson (8:51)

But I'll tell you what, I really feel for Georgia because it seems as though she was a wonderful person, put in a horrible Situation, you know, she was not only having to care for herself, but take care of an entire family.

Mike Gibson (9:09)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (9:10)

At the age of 10, then at the age of 12, she's moving out because of this fight and having to pay rent to stay with some family friends.

Mike Gibson (9:23)

I'm just trying to.

Mike Ferguson (9:25)

How does a 12 year old pay rent? Is that where you're going?

Mike Gibson (9:28)

Yeah. And how do you ask a 12 year old to pay rent?

Mike Ferguson (9:30)

I don't know.

Mike Gibson (9:31)

You're like, I would be like, I'm so sorry you don't come in. Yes, you can stay here. Don't worry about it. You know, I wouldn't be like, well, you can stay here, but you need to pay us $50 a week, a month or whatever.

Mike Ferguson (9:44)

Well, but what if you are barely making it? And that may be the case here, another mouth to feed may not be possible.

Mike Gibson (9:54)

Yeah, but what do you, what are you asking the 12 year old to do to make money then?

Mike Ferguson (9:58)

Yeah, that I don't know. Georgia was away from home for days at a time and she often missed school. According to the Petaluma Argus Courier, Georgia's friends would later say they were starting to show interest in boys and took risks they shouldn't have. Sources also reported that Georgia had minor run ins with the law that were not specified, but Georgia did not have a serious criminal record. So did she get into some trouble? Yeah, it sounds like she might have, but it wasn't serious. And again, she was only 12 years old. I don't know how much trouble you can get in. I guess you can get into a lot at a pretty young age. Going to our TCAT episode. That's out right now.

Mike Gibson (10:40)

That's true.

Mike Ferguson (10:41)

Overall though, it seems to like Georgia was doing the best she could considering her difficult circumstances. She did have an abnormal amount of freedom as well as responsibilities for someone her age because she was so young. She didn't always make responsible decisions and she didn't really have anyone who was able to watch over her.

Mike Gibson (11:03)

And she didn't really have anybody to teach her what a responsible decision would

Mike Ferguson (11:08)

be because I don't think the adults in her life growing up were responsible. No, it's, you know, we said her mother suffered from mental illness. It didn't sound like she could take care of herself or her kids. And I'm not sure where, you know, the dad was and all of this, but then you have the, the boyfriend who seems to be possibly pretty sketchy.

Mike Gibson (11:31)

Yeah, I mean, she's grown up in the school of hard knocks, right?

Mike Ferguson (11:35)

Without a doubt. Without a Doubt. Georgia Moses went missing on August 13, 1997. According to Dateline, on the evening she went missing, Georgia came over to braid her sister's hair. Angel asked to go out with her, but Georgia said she couldn't take her and would come back for her. Angel never saw her sister again. And we just talked about, you know, some of these circumstances that Georgia was living in. Well, obviously angel was living under those same circumstances, right?

Mike Gibson (12:06)

Some of them, yeah.

Mike Ferguson (12:07)

Now she wasn't having to take care of everyone like Georgia was. But you know, when you kind of look at some of the quotes from angel, there is no doubt that she revered and loved her sister.

Mike Gibson (12:23)

Oh, for sure.

Mike Ferguson (12:24)

She thought the world of her. She really saw her as kind of her mother figure.

Mike Gibson (12:29)

Absolutely.

Mike Ferguson (12:29)

The person who took care of her, Georgia and a friend who has not been named in sources were hanging out that evening when Georgia received a page and called the number back then. You and I have talked about pagers a lot. Right? In the 90s, pagers were kind of big.

Mike Gibson (12:47)

They were.

Mike Ferguson (12:48)

Even when cell phones, you know, came around, pagers were still there. And a lot of times because cell phone minutes were so daggone expensive.

Mike Gibson (13:00)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (13:00)

You know, younger people might not realize, but, you know, now we have unlimited talk and text and all that. Back in the day, you didn't really want to make a call on your cell phone because either you only had like 30 minutes a month or whatever your plan was, and if you went over that, it was exorbitant, very expensive. So you might still have a pager and use a payphone because that would be cheaper. A quarter would be cheaper than using your cell phone.

Mike Gibson (13:32)

Remember the fun things you could do if you spelled it right on a text and you turn your pager over? Oh, yeah. And it would spell out different.

Mike Ferguson (13:39)

You used to do that on the calculator at work. Turn it over and it say boob. And you just thought was that was the funniest thing ever. I'm sitting here like, this is a 40 something year old man at that point. I don't know why he's getting a kick out of that, but. And you're like, just cracks him up.

Mike Gibson (13:55)

No, it's up on the projector too now.

Mike Ferguson (13:59)

Around 10pm Georgia and her friend walked to the 76 gas station near the intersection of Sebastopol Road and Dutton Avenue in Santa Rosa. Georgia left with an unidentified man. And that was the last time she was seen alive. The person of interest was described as an African American male between the ages of 24 and 30 approximately 6 foot 2 and 200 pounds, he wore his hair in a short fade and drove a small white four door car. George's friend said she later called to tell her she would not be back for the night. So to me, that's an interesting factoid.

Mike Gibson (14:43)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (14:44)

Because you know, we have Georgia at this gas station seen with this man. We know she's never going to be seen again. But she does make this call to her friend, according to the friend, to say, I'm not, I'm not going to be back for the night.

Mike Gibson (15:01)

And why is that? Is it because maybe this person she's with, she is happy to go with, you know, they're going to go do something fun. Maybe they're, maybe it's for money making.

Mike Ferguson (15:16)

Yeah, we don't know.

Mike Gibson (15:18)

Yeah, we just don't know.

Mike Ferguson (15:19)

We can speculate on, on what it might be. It's tough though. I mean, she's a 12 year old, right. This guy's 6 to 200 pounds, maybe as old as 30 years old. Yeah, I mean, that's pretty sick. It is if your mind goes to any type of sexual conduct between these two individuals. On August 22, 1997, a Caltrans worker fixing a broken guardrail off Highway 101 in Petaluma found the new decomposing body just off the road in a grove of trees. Detectives initially thought the remains were an adult. The victim was not immediately identified. That same day, Child Protective Services stopped at Georgia's home in Santa Rosa to inquire about a suspected sex offender in the area. Angel was the one who reported her sister missing. She told Dateline eight days had passed since I saw my sister. I knew something was wrong because she always came to see me. So at seven years old, I was the one who had to report my sister missing.

Mike Gibson (16:31)

Man, just think about that too. Seven years old, she's like, where is my sister? It's been so many days, I better report my sister missing.

Mike Ferguson (16:42)

Well, I think what it does is really show you how dysfunctional this family was. Right. The mom is not able to take care of herself or the family. We don't really know about the boyfriend because there's a lot of negative things written about him.

Mike Gibson (17:00)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (17:01)

You know, folks, when giving I started this podcast, we had a world of questions and also a lot of doubt. Were we going to be able to pull it off and, and would anyone listen? Of course. Now we know we were right in believing in ourselves and launching the podcast despite all the fears and hesitation. Well, it also helps when you have a partner like Shopify on your side to help. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US. From household names like Mattel to True Crime all the time to brands just getting started. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. You can easily create email and social media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. We've been using Shopify for probably eight years now for our podcast Merch and it's been a real game changer. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com unsolved go to shopify.com unsolved that's shopify.com unsolved you know, when people talk about energy recovery and performance, they usually jump straight to training, protein or supplements. But one of the most overlooked pieces is Gut Health. If your gut is not dialed in, everything else struggles to work the way it should. That is where Momentous Fiber plus comes in. Momentous Fiber plus addresses one of the most overlooked foundations of long term performance, Gut Health. It's a complete three in one formula with soluble fiber, insoluble fiber and a prebiotic resistant starch. And like everything Momentous makes, Fiber plus is built with a science first formulation, clean and minimal ingredients, and no artificial additives or artificial flavors. Every product is independently certified by NSF for Sport or Informed Sport. And if a product doesn't meet their standard, it never hits the shelves. I've had gut health issues for about 20 years now and I started using fiber plus a couple of weeks ago. I could see a huge difference. Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first order with promo code UNSOLVED and head to livemomentous.com and use promo code UNSOLVED for up to 35% off your first Order. That's livemomentous.com promo code UNSOLVED. Four days after the remains were found, investigators received an anonymous tip linking the unidentified remains to Georgia's missing persons case. The deceased woman had braids and so did Georgia at the time of her disappearance. Police tentatively identified Georgia on August 29, noting that it could take weeks before tests confirm how she died. On September 15, police announced that they were still awaiting test results, Detective Lt. Mike Brown said at the time. Per SF Gate. Right now, we're classifying it as a suspicious death. Hopefully, at some point in time, we will have all the pieces to this puzzle. And I think at the very least, you have to classify it as suspicious.

Mike Gibson (20:27)

Sure you do.

Mike Ferguson (20:28)

When a young person is found partially nude on the side of the highway, I don't know how that could be anything other than suspicious, if not a homicide.

Mike Gibson (20:41)

Exactly. Red flag.

Mike Ferguson (20:43)

And I can only imagine. Right. How hard this must have hit Angel. You know, here's this person who, like, we've talked about, you know, she looked up to, I think, to a very great degree. This is the person, you know, I think, in large part, who had taken care of her for most of her life.

Mike Gibson (21:04)

Yeah. Now at 7 years old, she's gonna have to cope with all this or find a way to cope.

Mike Ferguson (21:09)

Couldn't. Couldn't have been easy. Lt. Brown said the county CPS office was aware of the family's troubles, but there were no reports of abuse.

Mike Gibson (21:18)

The problem I have with CPS on this one is could they really not figure out that Georgia was taking care of her sister and it was just not a good situation for those young girls to be in? Yeah, I get it. You always want to try to keep the family unit together as much as you can, as long as you can, but in some instances, maybe it's not for the best.

Mike Ferguson (21:47)

Well, I think we kind of have here the same issue that we had in our TCAD episode last week with Erica Green. And a lot of people who wrote me over the course of early this week after that episode came out did talk about CPS a lot. Where were they? There were signs. Where were they to step in and help save this, you know, this toddler. There are a lot of cases where people look back and say, man, you would have thought Child Protective services would have done something. Now, what I'm trying to figure out is what does it mean when it says they were aware of the family's troubles? It's very vague.

Mike Gibson (22:31)

It is.

Mike Ferguson (22:32)

Ultimately testing determined Georgia was strangled to death. Her body was so badly decomposed that she had to be identified through dental records. The coroner listed Aug. 13 as her date of death. The Sonoma County Sheriff's office released a sketch of the man Georgia was last seen with. However, this man has never been identified, and authorities have not named a person of interest in Georgia's murder. Now, it's hard for me to think that this guy, at the very least, doesn't know something about what happened to her if he wasn't the actual cause. Of her death.

Mike Gibson (23:13)

Yeah, but I'm guessing they didn't have a good detailed description of him.

Mike Ferguson (23:18)

Well, yeah, I mean, the description we gave is. I don't know, probably fits a lot of people.

Mike Gibson (23:24)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (23:25)

It's not probably good enough to narrow it down all that much.

Mike Gibson (23:31)

I mean, six to 200 pounds. A short fade on the side. That's me, man.

Mike Ferguson (23:36)

Yeah. Take off about six inches.

Mike Gibson (23:38)

That's you as is mean.

Mike Ferguson (23:41)

But keep the weight.

Mike Gibson (23:42)

You keep the weight.

Mike Ferguson (23:44)

But I know I've talked about it before. First of all, I think I'd be terrible with describing someone that I saw because I'm terrible with ages, heights, and weights and things like that. But I also think it's hard for police to just kind of go off of these, what are in a lot of cases, pretty vague descriptions. Yeah, sure, right. Sometimes the age ranges span quite a number of years.

Mike Gibson (24:12)

They're between 40 and 60.

Mike Ferguson (24:14)

Yeah. Now this one's 24 and 30. You can probably bet that this guy's in his late 20s, early 30s, probably something like that. But how many guys are out there in California like that that fit a similar description? Right. He might not be six two. He might be six foot. People have a real hard time with height. Six foot, six one. Those are fairly common heights. It's not the most common height for a male, but pretty common.

Mike Gibson (24:46)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (24:46)

In late September 1997, Sergeant Kirk Spalding from the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office said they were having a difficult time with the investigation, and he couldn't confirm whether they were investigating the circumstances surrounding a party in Petaluma that Georgia reportedly planned to attend on the night of her disappearance. Spaulding said detectives traced her movements and her friends in San Francisco, Marin county, and throughout Sonoma county, but hadn't been able to trace her movements beyond the last known sighting. So to me, you know, this kind of really puts it up in the air. It makes it sound like they don't know a lot.

Mike Gibson (25:30)

Right.

Mike Ferguson (25:30)

And it could mean that this person who was last thought to have been seen with her did or did not have anything to do with her death. I mean, if she ultimately goes to this party, then I think the pool of potential suspects opens up a great deal.

Mike Gibson (25:48)

Yeah, you're right, it would.

Mike Ferguson (25:50)

Because then you have all these people at the party. And did she meet someone there and go off with someone? Ida Moses told the Petaluma Argus Courier she didn't believe her boyfriend, Ed Pope, should be a suspect. However, a close friend said the opposite. Ida also agreed with others who described Ed Pope as a convicted child molester, saying, I think he was convicted, but I never saw anything. No, I don't think he's a suspect. So she came out and just flatly agreed that she believes he was a convicted child molester. Yeah, but yet her 7 year old daughter is living with this man.

Mike Gibson (26:31)

How can you be okay with that?

Mike Ferguson (26:33)

I don't know.

Mike Gibson (26:35)

It's just like the blinders are on. You are only thinking about your needs and not the welfare of your child.

Mike Ferguson (26:44)

Yeah. And we don't know how much, you know, her mental illness plays into this. We have no idea. But like you said, blinders, those could also be there in the. Oh, I don't believe he's a suspect. Well, she lives with this guy. Yeah. So is she a little biased? Yeah, probably. Police searched Pope's apartment, but didn't say if he was a suspect. Georgia was buried on June 17, 1998, 10 months after she was found. The release of her body was delayed to allow for a last minute examination in search of evidence. Rohnert Park Vice mayor Vicki Videk Martinez said at a 1998 memorial for Georgia, this memorial represents a distinct failing on the part of myself and the rest of our community because we failed to help this child. And I think most people listening, Gibbs, are going to be thinking along those same lines. Yeah, right. We, we talked about CPS saying, well, you know, we were kind of aware of the family problems. Well, how aware and what were the problems? And did those problems precipitate or should they have precipitated an examination of whether those kids should be allowed to remain in that home? And was this Pope guy a child molester? And how does that all factor in?

Mike Gibson (28:10)

I definitely believe the agency, the community dropped the ball.

Mike Ferguson (28:15)

And, you know, I give it up for this, this vice mayor because she even puts it on herself. You know, I like it when people take accountability. Now, is she accountable or should she be held responsible for this? No, I don't believe so. But I like it when people include themselves in the accountability process. I hate it when people push it off and say, well, so and so should have done this or that. Right. She's basically saying, we all failed this child. And in a way, I think that's a valid statement. Know somebody should have stepped in and to acknowledge it.

Mike Gibson (28:55)

Maybe that's how you fix it.

Mike Ferguson (28:58)

Well, I, I think these types of cases, and we've seen it with a number of cases, they do help change policies, procedures that could help a child down the road. Yeah, unfortunately, it's not going to Help Georgia, but her case could help children for generations. Unfortunately, we are a very reactive society. I think by and large something bad happens, we analyze what happened and then we make changes. Yeah, we don't always or we're not able to sit around and say, you know what, we should do this because something like this might happen. We're much better at analyzing things after it's already occurred and then saying what would have fixed it. And, you know, we'll try to put that in place. Another memorial was held on Highway 101 in early September, sponsored by Sonoma County Women against rape. Friends and child advocates said they wanted to make sure Georgia's case was not forgotten. In November 1998, law enforcement announced they were looking into a potential connection between Georgia's murder and serial killer wayne Adamford. On Nov. 2, Ford surrendered to police and confessed to killing four sex workers. At the time of his surrender, he had a woman severed breast in his pocket. He was suspected of at least two other murders. Ford, a long distance truck driver, said he started committing murders after he separated from his wife in 1997. Ford was found guilty in June 2006 and sentenced to death. He remains on death row in California. And we covered Ford in an episode of true crime all the time, all the way back in 2018. He was a despicable human being. So it doesn't surprise me in the least that they would at least have to take a look at him.

Mike Gibson (31:00)

Yeah, yeah. I was just thinking, you know, I've had some strange objects in my pocket, you know, but I've never had a severed woman's breast in my pocket.

Mike Ferguson (31:15)

Well, I'm hoping that you never would.

Mike Gibson (31:17)

I would never would.

Mike Ferguson (31:19)

That would mean something very wrong has gone on with you and I've got to call police immediately.

Mike Gibson (31:25)

I'm just trying to think about this guy's thought process of one. It was all jacked up anyway. We know that.

Mike Ferguson (31:32)

Yeah, he was a terrible guy, but. But no, you're right. I understand what you're saying. The problem I have is it's so hard to get in these people's minds. Why in the world would you want to kill these people? Right. And then you go beyond that and say, why in the world, if you did, would you want to carry this piece around in your pocket? What sick enjoyment or sick feeling are you getting from possessing this? But again, to try to make sense of what these people do, it's a fool's errand.

Mike Gibson (32:06)

That's true.

Mike Ferguson (32:07)

As time passed, George's case was often compared to the Murder of Polly Klass, which received significantly more media attention and coverage. On October 1, 1993, Polly Klaas was kidnapped at knifepoint during a slumber party in Petaluma, California, and was strangled to death. And a man named Richard Allen Davis was arrested two months later and led police to Polley's body in Sonoma County. Davis was sentenced to death in 1996 and remains on death row. Pauly's case accelerated the passage of California's three strikes law to ensure harsher sentences for repeat felons. And that is a very infamous case. And I know what a lot of people will say, right? Why did Paulie's case receive so much more attention than Georgia's case? And the argument could be made, and the facts, unfortunately do support it, that Paulie was white and Georgia was black. And that's one of the main reasons, if not the reason, in the disparity in coverage. And it shouldn't be that way. You and I have talked about it time and time again, but the facts, and there are facts out there that support that this is the case. But you know what Pauly's case did in ensuring harsher sentences for repeat felons. Right. It's kind of like what I'm. What I was talking about. These cases, they cause lawmakers to make a change. But despite similarities in the cases, it was noted that Georgia, a young African American girl, received not only less media coverage, but less sympathy from the public. And that's horrible.

Mike Gibson (33:57)

It is horrible.

Mike Ferguson (33:58)

Many blamed school officials and child protective services for letting Georgia slip through the cracks. They also criticized the media for portraying Georgia's family in less than respectful terms. Now, the first part I understand completely. The second part, again, I don't know how they were portrayed exactly in the media. Like the things that we have said that were reported were that George's mom had a mental illness, that her mother's boyfriend was convicted of being a child molester. So if that's what they're talking about, I think those are facts. And if they're facts, then they are what they are.

Mike Gibson (34:44)

You have to look at those. You have to consider those.

Mike Ferguson (34:47)

Yeah, I don't know if it's not respectful to talk about the facts of the case now, they might be talking about something else that was reported about the family. I don't know. You know, it's mind boggling to me that in 2026, many small business owners are still making post office runs or are stuck with expensive postage meter leases. Folks, this is not 1926 mail and ship when you want how you want with stamps.com with stamps.com, you can send from your computer or phone 24. 7. No long lines, no low supplies, open anytime. Print postage on demand and get up to 90% off carrier rates like FedEx, UPS and USPS. You you can schedule carrier pickups right from your door and get carrier compliant labels every time. No errors, no rejected mail and no wasted trips. It's perfect for your business. For almost 30 years, millions of customers have relied on stamps.com to make mailing and shipping faster. And so simple. I know for me, stamps.com has saved thousands and thousands of runs to the post office, which means that's just more time to get other stuff done. Right now you can try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Go to stamps.com and use code tcat to get 60 days risk free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That's stamps.com, code TCATT. That's stamps.com code TCAT. Homes.com knows that when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or condo. It's about the home. And what makes a home is more than just the house or property, its location and the neighborhood. If you have kids, it's also schools, nearby, parks and transportation options. That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in depth information they need to find the right home. And when I say in depth, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings and student to teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in1place.homes.com We've done your homework. According to the Petaluma Argus Courier, GA Leah Moses had a lot in common with polyclass. She was abducted and murdered at the tender age of 12, like Polly. And her body was found on the west side of Petaluma, not far from Polly Klaas house. Like Polly, Georgia was bright, beautiful, intelligent and well loved by her circle of friends. But that's where the similarities end. While poly class was quote, unquote, America's child, Georgia Leah Moses was America's throwaway child, according to those who mourned her death in 1997.

Mike Gibson (37:54)

Wow.

Mike Ferguson (37:55)

And it is kind of hard to argue with that based on the information that we have and the information that we've talked about already.

Mike Gibson (38:04)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (38:05)

I mean, go back to what the vice mayor said. We let this girl down.

Mike Gibson (38:09)

Oh, for sure. At an early age. I mean, she is taking care of herself, her mom, her younger sister. She is doing everything.

Mike Ferguson (38:20)

And allegedly, at some point, in the home with a convicted child molester, that cannot be good. Marie DeSantis, the former director of Sonoma County Women Against Rape, told the Petaluma Argus Courier. It was bad. It wasn't until I went on KPFA radio and contrasted it to the response that people had to polyclass's kidnapping that anybody paid attention. The obvious thing was the race difference, but as much as that, any girl that is in trouble, what happens to her is considered her fault. Girls who are not raised in the right kind of home are considered responsible for what happens to them.

Mike Gibson (39:03)

And that's so wrong.

Mike Ferguson (39:04)

It is, but I'm not sure that she's incorrect.

Mike Gibson (39:07)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (39:08)

I'm not saying it's right.

Mike Gibson (39:09)

No, no, no.

Mike Ferguson (39:10)

What I'm saying is I think that there are people who look at it that way. I don't agree with it. You don't agree with it. DeSantis did note that once the inequitable treatment of Georgia's case was pointed out to community, people did turn around eventually. But it's sad that it had to be pointed out for them to turn around.

Mike Gibson (39:32)

Yeah, I mean, they. They couldn't figure it out on their own.

Mike Ferguson (39:36)

Singer Tom Waits honored Georgia's memory with his 1999 song Georgia Lee. I did not know that.

Mike Gibson (39:43)

I did not know that, either.

Mike Ferguson (39:44)

Several years after Georgia died, two firefighters from San Francisco created a memorial sculpture for her. In March 2000, 100 people gathered at the freeway where she was found to dedicate the statue. In 2012, it was relocated due to freeway work. The sculpture was moved to a spot under a tree outside Petaluma city hall. In 2001, California investigators looked into John Mark Carr, a former schoolteacher, as a potential suspect in the murder. In the years since Carr adopted the name Alexis Reich and came out as a transgender woman, Carr had shown a fascination with the murders of JonBenet Ramsey in Colorado and and polyclass in Petaluma. Sonoma County's investigation into Carr led him to being charged with possession of child pornography. He fled the country while his case was pending. In August 2006, Carr was arrested in Thailand after falsely confessing to the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. And that was such a big thing. It was when he confessed to her Murder, his face was plastered all over the news. Now, eventually, the charges against Carr were dismissed and he was ruled out as a suspect in Georgia's murder. I think he's also been ruled out by most as JonBenet Ramsey's murderer. Yeah, but there's no doubt he was. He was a strange cat, or still is. I don't know if he's still alive or not. I can't remember. According to a 2006 statement by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department, in a few instances, while he seemed to be wondering about the JonBenet Ramsey murder, he made certain allusions to placing himself in the killer's role. However, we never uncovered any confession, statements, overt murder evidence, or other indications that John Carr possessed secret knowledge that only the murderer of JonBenet Ramsey would know. But there's some fascinating stuff here. Right. We talked about this guy, Richard Allen Davis, who was convicted of, you know, Paulie's murder. Could he have had something to do with George's murder? Both girls were 12 years old.

Mike Gibson (42:07)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (42:07)

Both were strangled to death. Now you have this guy, you know, Mark Carr, John Mark Carr, whatever you want to call him. But strange individual to say the least.

Mike Gibson (42:18)

Yeah. And sadly, you have multiple people that may have been her killer or at

Mike Ferguson (42:25)

least a number of people that police have to look at for sure. I think, though, when you say, you know, things like, you know, we just couldn't find any overt murder evidence. Well, you're obviously, you're not clearing somebody just from a statement like that. Yeah, you're just saying you couldn't find anything to. To charge. Another important person who worked to keep Georgia's memory alive was Leah Rowley. In 1998, Rowley founded the Children's Village, a non profit home for neglected and abused children. Rowley wanted to create a new kind of community for foster children that would bring a nurturing environment normally provided by extended family with the goal of keeping foster siblings together. Rowley told the San Francisco Chronicle, I happen to have known Georgia, and because of her death, I was moved to do something about children in our society. She said she saw some pretty horrendous things in her work and always wondered about something like a village for some of our children. This one little girl's death won't be in vain. The Nonprofit lasted for 10 years and closed in 2006 after losing funding. Leah Rowley has since passed away. Some sources report that the organization lost funding and closed in 2006. However, other sources report that the group built a set of family homes In Santa Rosa in 2006, the Press Democrat reported that the Children's village closed in October 2015 following a state policy shift intended to place more children with foster families rather than group settings. In 2020, the board dissolved the organization and conveyed to TLC Child and Family Services headquarters a stone carved with George's name. The Press Democrat also reported that founder Leah Rowley died in 2019. So, I mean, you know, we talk about it quite a bit, right? In the wake of some of these tragedies, especially the ones involving younger children. You know, there are a lot of people, Gibbs, who do amazing things. You think of John Walsh and all of the good work that he did, you know, after his son was abducted and killed. And there have been many, many other less public figures that have done certain things. I mean, what this woman did was amazing. It was the fact that it didn't last forever. Okay, well, I don't think that's her fault, but what she was trying to do was, was a great thing. According to Dateline, after the murder, Angel Turner and her mother moved to Georgia to live with her aunt. Angel later joined the military, got married and had kids. She also spent years fighting for justice for her sister. And that doesn't surprise me one bit. Again, like we said, I think she really looked up to Georgia. I think she really loved her.

Mike Gibson (45:30)

I think Georgia was everything to her.

Mike Ferguson (45:32)

I do believe that from all of the things that we've read.

Mike Gibson (45:36)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (45:36)

The things that she said in articles and stuff like that, I can imagine that she would love nothing more than to get justice for her sister. In 2020, angel found a private Facebook group created by Georgia's former friends and classmates who were also searching for answers. In November of that year, she met Maria Martin, whose father worked with the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department and was part of the team that recovered George's body. Maria reached out to angel and currently helps her manage the justice for Georgia Leah Moses Facebook page and website. Angel also learned about Leah Rowley and the Children's Village. Angel and Leah were in contact, but never got to meet in person before she passed away.

Mike Gibson (46:25)

Several amazing women mentioned in that people

Mike Ferguson (46:29)

who are trying to do good things.

Mike Gibson (46:31)

Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (46:32)

Angel told Dateline that she made many attempts over the years to contact the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department to re examine George's case, but she often got little to no response.

Mike Gibson (46:43)

That's. That's a shame.

Mike Ferguson (46:46)

It is, it is. Angel said. It hurts me that my sister's killer has never been caught, but it hurts me more that Those in a position to help don't seem to care. We, the people should not have to fight the justice system for justice. Every day. I grieve and I heal and I fight. I'm not giving up. And I understand, you know, in some of these counties and some of these jurisdictions, they are. They have a large number of cold cases. They probably are not nearly as responsive to families as the families want them to be. I can imagine, though, it's very frustrating. It would make you feel as though they just don't care. Now, whether they do or do not care, I don't know the answer to that, but I can certainly see why people would feel that way.

Mike Gibson (47:37)

Yeah. I just. I don't understand the no response piece. You know, you owe a response to their surviving family member.

Mike Ferguson (47:46)

Yeah, I'm with you 100%. Even if that response is, we don't really have any new information. No new leads or tips have come in. I wish we had something more to tell you, but to just ignore and not respond, I do think that's. That's kind of unforgivable.

Mike Gibson (48:04)

Yeah. It's unacceptable. Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (48:06)

Sonoma County Sheriff's Office spokesman Sergeant Juan Valencia told DATELINE that he could not discuss additional details of the case because it's an ongoing investigation. And I get that. Right, right. But that doesn't mean you can't talk to the family.

Mike Gibson (48:21)

Exactly.

Mike Ferguson (48:22)

You know, because it's an ongoing case, that doesn't mean you can't pick up the phone or shoot them an email or at the. At the very least, I mean, give

Mike Gibson (48:32)

them the courtesy, call them.

Mike Ferguson (48:34)

Yeah, I understand you can't tell the media details of an ongoing investigation. I understand that. Angel believes Georgia may have been a victim of sex trafficking. She was reportedly going to a party on the night she went missing. Angel believes Georgia was trafficked by the adults she associated with during her last year of life and that the unidentified person of interest might have been linked to that network. On April 15, 2025, California Governor Gavin Newsom awarded $50,000 requested by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office in hopes of renewing interest in the case. And it was one of four or such grants statewide. So, I mean, that's something when you think about the size of California. There were only four of them statewide, and one of them was for Georgia's case.

Mike Gibson (49:26)

Thank goodness for that.

Mike Ferguson (49:28)

Officials from the governor's and sheriff's offices said that all investigative leads had been exhausted and they hoped to use the reward money to encourage help from the public. And I think at this point, that's what it's going to take. Right. These cold cases, you know, they get to a point where if there's nothing new coming in, everything has already been investigated. Right. Every tip, every lead. They need a new direction. And maybe this $50,000 would be the type of incentive that would prompt somebody to come forward.

Mike Gibson (50:05)

Yeah, you need something to generate new leads to hope that you can run with the case and, and maybe get something developed.

Mike Ferguson (50:16)

You know, I think what's sad for me is that there's a real possibility that if George's case would have received anywhere near the attention of poly classes, they would have had a much better chance of solving it early on.

Mike Gibson (50:32)

Yeah, I mean, there's that possibility. We will never know. But, yeah, I think if she would have had a. Her case, would have had a equal amount of resources given to it. We might not be talking about this

Mike Ferguson (50:46)

case or just coverage.

Mike Gibson (50:47)

Or coverage. Yeah. We might not be talking about it on unsolved.

Mike Ferguson (50:50)

No. Maybe the unidentified man would have been identified because as of right now, the man who Georgia was seen with at the gas station has not been identified. Anyone with information about George's murder is asked to call the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office Cold case unit at 707-565-2727 or email Sheriff coldcasenomacounty.org so, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, these types of cases, they do upset me. Right. You have a 12 year old girl who goes missing and is later found dead. And then you add on top of that this inequity in the coverage of cases of missing white girls and missing black girls, and it's infuriating. It's not that I believe missing white girls deserve less coverage.

Mike Gibson (51:47)

No, no, no.

Mike Ferguson (51:48)

I'm not saying take coverage away. I'm just saying they should be equal.

Mike Gibson (51:52)

Absolutely.

Mike Ferguson (51:53)

There should be the same coverage or the same attention paid to all cases.

Mike Gibson (52:00)

Yes.

Mike Ferguson (52:00)

Regardless of color, creed, you know, whatever you want to throw out there.

Mike Gibson (52:06)

Yeah. Just treat them all the same.

Mike Ferguson (52:09)

The problem is, and we've seen the statistics, they back up the fact that. That they're not treated the same. Now, are there strides being made? Yeah, I'm sure they. There have been strides since Georgia's case and many other cases, but it still crops up from time to time. And I just. In 2026, there is no way in the world that should be happening. It shouldn't have been happening back then when Georgia disappeared. Yeah. You know, the 90s was not the dark ages.

Mike Gibson (52:44)

No, but it did.

Mike Ferguson (52:46)

But hopefully, you know, they can figure out a way to solve her case because she does deserve justice, and angel deserves to see Georgia get justice because you really have to feel for Angel.

Mike Gibson (52:58)

Of course.

Mike Ferguson (52:59)

And we talk about Georgia being in a. In a pretty bad situation. Obviously, angel grew up in that same situation.

Brandy (53:06)

Yeah.

Mike Gibson (53:06)

And had to continue growing up in that situation.

Mike Ferguson (53:09)

But that's it for our episode on Georgia Moses. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

Brandy (53:14)

Hi, my name is Brandy and I am from all over because my dad is in the military and I currently do disaster relief. So I travel all over the country and follow trucks around picking up dead trees and that type of thing. So I have a lot of time to listen. And I am now catching up on everything. And I am just now listening to the Marcia Moore episode on Unsurprising. And you're talking about reincarnation. And it just always makes me laugh because my mother always said it's always funny how everyone says that they were, you know, the queen of England or something when they reincarnated. Nobody was ever a two dollar whore in a past life, and that just made me think of that and I got a chuckle, which I needed today. So, guys, keep doing all the good work that you do and keep your own time. Chicken. Have a good day. Bye.

Mike Ferguson (53:59)

Well, yeah, I mean, if you're gonna believe that you were reincarnated, you got to be somebody cool.

Mike Gibson (54:04)

Absolutely.

Mike Ferguson (54:05)

Or powerful or, you know, something like that.

Mike Gibson (54:08)

The queen of England.

Mike Ferguson (54:10)

Horrible.

Mike Gibson (54:11)

I wonder if anybody ever sings that song, Brandy to her. Remember that song, Brandy? Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Ferguson (54:17)

You're a fine girl.

Mike Gibson (54:18)

You're a fine girl.

Mike Ferguson (54:19)

What a good wife you would be.

Mike Gibson (54:20)

Yeah, yeah, I remember. I can't remember who sung it.

Mike Ferguson (54:24)

I can't either because I don't think they made a lot of hits, but that was a big hit.

Mike Gibson (54:28)

Was a big hit back in the day. I'm sure someone has brought it to her attention at one point.

Mike Ferguson (54:33)

Back when you were in your 20s, in your prime.

Mike Gibson (54:36)

Oh, yeah, man.

Mike Ferguson (54:39)

All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime. All the time unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

Mike Gibson (54:56)

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