Jermain Charlo

Summary

True Crime All The Time Unsolved

Episode: Jermain Charlo
Date: March 16, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson (Gibby)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the mysterious 2018 disappearance of Jermain Charlo, a young mother and member of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes from the Flathead Reservation in Montana. Mike and Gibby guide listeners through Jermain’s background, her troubled relationship with ex-boyfriend Michael Defrance, the events leading up to her disappearance, and the subsequent investigation. The episode critiques systemic issues impacting missing and murdered Indigenous women, examines suspect behavior, and discusses both the heartbreak and frustrations endured by Jermain’s family.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jermain Charlo’s Background

• Jermain, 23, was from the Flathead Reservation in Montana and a member of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes.
• She had a close bond with her aunt, Valinda Morgo, who recounts family stories and her attachment to Jermain (04:02).
• Jermain was descended from Chief Charlo, known for peaceful resistance during the 1870s (05:21).
• She enjoyed a variety of activities from dressing up and going out, to fishing and caring for pets, even pigs (05:59).
• Jermain was artistic and dreamed of attending the Institute of American Indian Arts. She had two sons, Jacob and Thomas, and valued being a mother (05:59).

Relationship with Michael Defrance

• Jermain met Michael, two years her senior, at age 14. Their relationship was tumultuous and marked by domestic violence.
• Griffy remarks on repeated domestic violence in such cases:
  Quote: “Unfortunately, I feel like in almost every episode that we have coming out...there are elements of domestic violence...there has to be a way to put an end to all this.” (06:00)
• Jermain’s family witnessed red flags, including Michael’s controlling and violent behaviors.
• In 2013, Michael assaulted Jermain when she was 17, admitting to hitting and spitting on her. He pleaded guilty to “partner family member assault,” but served no jail time (10:09).
• Jermain continued to see Michael despite the violence, a dynamic the hosts discuss as common in domestic abuse due to complex psychological and situational pressures (12:04).

Events Leading Up to Her Disappearance

• By 2017, the relationship had ended for good, but Jermain and Michael shared custody struggles over their sons.
• Michael had an attorney and more financial resources, leading to him gaining full custody; a stressful situation for Jermain (14:00).
• Jermain’s life was showing signs of improvement: a new job, a new relationship with “Jacob,” and hope for a position as a tribal firefighter (15:28).
• On June 14, 2018, Jermain visited her aunt and was enthusiastic about upcoming work (16:02).

Broader Context: Indigenous Women & Missing Persons

• The case is part of the larger crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous women in the US and Canada.
• Indigenous women make up a disproportionately high percentage of Montana's missing persons: 6% of the population but 24% of cases (17:08).
• 80% of Indigenous women experience violence in their lives—a “staggering” and “sad” statistic, the hosts note (17:10).

The Night Jermain Disappeared

• June 15, 2018: Jermain and Michael go out in downtown Missoula, visiting several bars.
• She appears on two surveillance videos: walking down the street with Michael, and socializing outside a bar called the Badlander, Michael standing a few paces behind (17:26).
• After talking to acquaintances outside the bar, she walks off with Michael—this is the last verifiable sighting (18:38).
• Jermain becomes unresponsive to calls and texts, and her social media goes silent, alarming her family (18:46).

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Investigation & Police Response

Delayed and Fragmented Law Enforcement Action

• Jermain’s mother tried to report her missing to tribal and Missoula Police, but the family was “pushed from one agency to another” and told to file reports in person (19:12).
  Quote: “Unfortunately, we hear about this a lot…families are frantic…and they’re getting pushed from one agency to another…” (19:12)
• Police interview Michael, who changes his story several times:
  • Initially, he claims to have left Jermain at a supermarket.
  • Later asserts he dropped her near a friend named “Cassidy”—who doesn’t exist (23:13).
  • Eventually he explains her phone pinging north of Missoula near his property by saying she left it with him, and he threw it out along his trucking route two days later (35:57).
• The shifting stories prompt the hosts’ skepticism: Quote: “When you tell the truth…very rarely should you ever have to change your story because there is no different story” (32:58).

Phone Evidence & Timeline

• Cell data shows Jermain’s phone active near Michael’s Avaro Hill residence from 2am–10am on June 16 (31:35).
• This conflicts with Michael’s claims about where he last saw her.
• Michael’s explanation for the discarded phone is roundly doubted by both hosts; throwing out the phone of a missing person looks “more guilty” (36:12).

Suspect Behavior & Community Observations

• Friends and bystanders noticed Michael’s visible discomfort and jealousy during the night—arms crossed, glaring, and not speaking when Jermain interacted with others (27:36). Quote: “He wasn’t very, like, stoked that she was talking to people other than him…arms crossed…he didn’t really say anything…” – Eddie Woodcock, friend (27:36)
• Michael's mother asserted to police that Jermain had never been to their home, and Michael still wanted to reconcile (36:12).

Evidence Searches and Frustrations

• Property searches in August and October 2018 (using thermal imaging and ground/air observations) yielded no public results (37:17, 39:12).
• Guns owned by Michael—illegal due to his prior conviction—were found and led to a separate federal case (39:12).

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Investigation Outcome and Legal Developments

Federal Case Against Michael Defrance

• Michael is indicted on firearms charges in 2021, pleads not guilty (41:09).
• Convicted in 2023. Detective Guy Baker affirms belief that Jermain is likely deceased, though without finding her remains (43:05). Quote: “Yes, I believe she is no longer with us…but there’s been situations where women have been held captive…” – Detective Baker (43:05)
• Michael sentenced to 21 months in federal prison for firearms violations (46:54).
• The sentence is seen by Jermain’s family as “the smallest bit of justice,” though not what they truly wanted (47:47).
• In 2024, his conviction is overturned on a legal technicality involving differences in state/federal domestic violence law definitions (49:33). Quote: “It’s possible to be found guilty of violating the Montana law for verbal or emotional abuse, and that would not necessarily meet the criteria of physical force under the federal definition.” (48:54)

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Reflections, Theory, and Ongoing Uncertainty

• The hosts repeatedly discuss that Michael, while never formally named a suspect or charged in connection with Jermain’s disappearance, looks suspicious to many—due to lies, his proximity to Jermain, and the fate of her phone (50:13–51:49).
• Both hosts express doubt that Jermain is still alive, given years of no contact, no activity, and no trace (50:13, 43:05).
• Other explanations, like human trafficking, were considered but investigated and ruled out (37:07).
• The episode concludes with a plea for tips and hope for resolution for the family (50:15).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On systemic failing:
  “In…the state of Montana, Indigenous people make up only 6% of the population, but 24% of the state’s active missing persons cases.” – Mike Ferguson (17:08)

• On domestic violence context:
  “She allowed a lot of negative behavior and justified it with that need for this picture-perfect family that she’d always dreamt of.” – Jermaine’s aunt Danielle Matt (Interview referenced at 13:10)

• On suspect behavior:
  “When you tell the truth…I mean, very rarely should you ever have to change your story because there is no different story.” – Mike Ferguson (32:58)
  “Why the hell do you throw a phone away?” – Mike Gibson (51:49)

• On family despair:
  “Her family still hopes that one day she might be found, but as I think is often the case, they no longer believe she’s alive.” – Mike Ferguson (50:13)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• Jermain’s background and personality: 04:02–05:59
• Domestic violence history: 09:31–10:36
• Missing Persons crisis for Indigenous women: 16:47–17:26
• Night of disappearance and evidence: 17:26–25:21
• Michael’s changing stories: 23:13, 32:07, 35:57
• CCTV sightings: 17:26–18:38
• Family’s efforts and frustration with law enforcement: 19:12–22:23
• Discovery and investigation of evidence: 31:35–37:17, 39:12
• Federal conviction and reversal: 46:54–49:33
• Reflections on case status: 50:13–51:49

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Tone & Style

As is typical of True Crime All The Time Unsolved, Ferguson and Gibson approach the story with seriousness, empathy, and occasional light-hearted banter. The hosts are sensitive in their treatment of domestic violence and critical of legal and administrative obstacles to justice. The tone, while occasionally broken by their rapport, remains respectful and focused on the victim.

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Call to Action

If you have information on Jermain Charlo’s case, contact Missoula Police Detective Guy Baker at 406-552-6284.

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This summary encapsulates the major developments, context, and emotional gravity of Jermain Charlo’s disappearance as discussion in this episode, offering a comprehensive guide for those who have not listened.

Transcript

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 456 of the True Crime all the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

Doing great.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Having an excellent week. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Dia.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Dia?

[Mike Ferguson]

Robin Jennings. Jake Wilson.

[Mike Gibson]

What's up, Wilson?

[Mike Ferguson]

Ashley Garf.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Ashley.

[Mike Ferguson]

Emily Border.

[Mike Gibson]

Thanks, Emily.

[Mike Ferguson]

Neil. Ryan.

[Mike Gibson]

What's up, Ryan? Yali K. Well, that's a fun name. It is, yeah. The Yali part.

[Mike Ferguson]

I was gonna say you said K. That's the fun part of it. Ronnell.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Ronnell.

[Mike Ferguson]

Lori.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, thank you, Lori.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Jackie Portwood.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Jack? A.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we appreciate that new support, but then if we go back into the vault this week we selected Mike with four exclamation points. Look at Mike showing off, really screaming it out there. Yeah, so we appreciate that long term support as well. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime all the Time where we're talking about Connie Debate, 39 year old mother of two who was killed just two days before Christmas. Her husband claimed that an intruder broke in to their house that morning and killed Connie. But Connie's Fitbit would prove that he

[Mike Gibson]

wasn't telling the truth, there was more to the story.

[Mike Ferguson]

Absolutely. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime? All the Time unsolved?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about the disappearance of Jermaine Charlotte. Jermaine Charlo, a young mother from Montana vanished in 2018 after a night out with her ex boyfriend. Her last confirmed movements were captured on surveillance footage. But what happened to her remains a mystery. And there are quite a few cases like this, Gibbs, you know they have some evidence, right? They have some things to go on, but it's not enough to crack the case. Now, will it be one day? Yeah, that's what we're hoping for.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

23 year old Jermaine Charlo lived on the Flathead Reservation in Montana. She is a member of the Confederated Salish and Kootenay tribes. Jermaine grew up on the reservation with her family. She had a special bond with her aunt Valinda Morgo, who recalled the 48 hours when she was born. I didn't like her at all. I was the baby of the family, and she stole my thunder. And then one day, my grandma was cooking, and Jermaine, she needed to be fed. My grandma's like, hold this baby. I was like. I remember, like looking at her, I was like, all right, you're not that bad. And then from that day on, she was my baby. She was my baby sister.

[Mike Gibson]

I love that story. Yeah, it's, it's, it's real life.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's very relatable. Now I'm an only child, so I'm not able to speak to that. I can imagine that, that you can, having an older brother and a younger brother. So at one point, you stole your older brother's thunder?

[Mike Gibson]

I did.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then at some point, your younger brother came along and kind of stole your thunder.

[Mike Gibson]

Bastard.

[Mike Ferguson]

And your singlet, probably.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, a lot of people like to steal my singlet.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to 48 Hours, Germain is descended from Chief Charlo, who was known for his peaceful resistance during the 1870s, when the tribe was forced to move from their ancestral land in Montana's Bitterroot Valley to the Flathead Reservation. Jermaine was someone who liked to dress up and go out, but she also enjoyed fishing and spending time outdoors. And she was an animal lover and had many pets growing up, including pet pigs.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds like fun.

[Mike Ferguson]

What part? The dressing up, the going out or the pet pigs?

[Mike Gibson]

All the above.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or the fishing. Germaine was also artistic, and her dream was to attend the Institute of American Indian Arts. She had two Sons named Jacob and Thomas. And it was said that she loved being a mother. The father of her children was her ex boyfriend, Michael Defrance. Michael and Jermaine had a rocky relationship and he was arrested twice for domestic violence. And unfortunately, Gibbs, I feel like in almost every episode that we have coming out, both TCAT unsolved, our TCAT next Thursday, there are elements of domestic violence. Yeah, there are, unfortunately, you know, I. Something's got to be done. We talked about it. One of the episodes. I don't know what the answer is, but there is just too much of it. But there has to be a way to put it into all this domestic violence that we're seeing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And have been seeing. Right.

[Mike Gibson]

For. Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

A very long time. Jermaine was 14 when she met 16 year old Michael in 2010. His family moved across the street from her. They both enjoyed fishing and taking long walks and were soon inseparable. But there were some red flags in the relationship. Jermaine's Aunt Valinda remembered going through Jermaine's phone and finding explicit photos. She mentioned this to Michael and said this was not something they should be doing at their young age. Michael didn't say much in response. And you and I have been talking about digital footprints a lot lately. Normally as it relates to, you know, let's say them catching a killer or maybe helping out in an unsolved case. There's also this issue of, you know, people taking nude selfies, let's just say, or risque photos.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And sending them to other people who then may keep them to themselves or may not. And I'm telling you, if some of those photos end up on the web, they are going to be very hard to get rid of.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely. You know, once they're out there, they're out there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And you know, not to be too preachy, but people should really be careful with that stuff because now, especially at 14, 16 years old, you shouldn't be doing that at all.

[Mike Gibson]

Not at all.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I'm even talking about adults.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, make sure you know who you're sending that stuff to.

[Mike Gibson]

And this is why on my weekend shows, it's a no smartphones allowed show. Like when they come in, there's a basket, you got to put your phones in there and they stay in there. You get them back at the end of the show or you should get them back at the end of the show. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The problem is your crowd doesn't, isn't they're not real big smartphone crowd.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's True. We don't get a lot of phones thrown into the basket.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're more of the big button phone.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That you buy for your elderly grandparents. But I, I get the, I get the thought behind it just in case

[Mike Gibson]

they get a little, you know, technology

[Mike Ferguson]

savvy all of a sudden.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. If anything, I, if I find one cheating and taking the picture, I'm like, hey, put a filter on that, please.

[Mike Ferguson]

They have filters that make things look larger.

[Mike Gibson]

God, I hope so.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine continued seeing Michael in April 2013, just two weeks before her 18th birthday. She called her aunt and said Michael hit her. Michael, who was 19 at the time, admitted to hitting Jermaine with an open hand, then twice more with his fist, per a police report. Jermaine reported that Michael shoved her onto the hood of his van, punched her in the ear, temple and cheekbone, then spit in her face and told her she was horrible.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, this is not a good way to get a relationship going or keep one. Keep one? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, this is to me something that no man should ever do to a woman.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You shouldn't put your hands on a woman. Right. I guess there are times where you have to defend yourself. But this isn't defending yourself.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is beating up a 17, soon to be 18 year old girl in a pretty horrific way.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's assault.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. There's no doubt about it. Michael pleaded guilty to partner family member assault but didn't serve any jail time. And. Okay, I could bristle at that. We have a 19 year old assaulting a 17 year old in a, in a pretty horrific fashion. I get it. Right. The courts play out how they play out. I would think at the very least just to send a message, there's got to be some jail time involved because if not, like we always say, what do you, what are you telling this person?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. If there's no consequences, you know, if you don't serve any jail time, how are you going to learn a lesson?

[Mike Ferguson]

And is it going to stop you the next time this type of scenario comes up? And I would say probably not likely. Jermaine and Michael remained together after this. They lived in a camper on his parents property. A few months later, Michael left town to work as a seasonal firefighter. Jermaine was lonely, so she began making YouTube videos. Videos as a creative outlet. Soon they had two boys to take care of. There were multiple instances of violence throughout their relationship. Jermaine's aunt Valinda told 48 Hours it was hard for us to watch her go back. But that's what happens to a lot of women who are victims of domestic violence.

[Mike Gibson]

And we know that you've talked to some of our listeners.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

That have went through this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It's something that we've been educated on. Right. In the 10 years that we've been doing this podcast, it's not as easy as saying, well, why don't you just leave? There are a lot of different circumstances which make that way harder than what it seems. Right. On the surface. Jermaine's aunt Danielle Matt said in an interview with the show Cold Justice. We knew the abuse was happening. She allowed a lot of negative behavior and justified it with that need for this picture perfect family that she'd always dreamt of. Jermaine's aunt Valenda provided more context in a 2023 interview with Capac, saying, she was very family oriented. She came from a broken family. And. And that's one thing that was very important to her, to have her boys have a stable family. So what I'm taking from this, Gibbs, is that she didn't want to have happen to her boys what happened to her.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And she was trying her best to make this work.

[Mike Gibson]

At the cost of her being abused.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. Jermaine and Michael broke up and got back together a few times, but they ended things for good. In 2017, they said there was a lingering tension between them. In early 2018, Jermaine and Michael got into a heated custody battle. Jermaine had limited financial resources. Michael had an attorney and she didn't. Jermaine was also working hard to get more stability with work. A judge granted Michael full custody, and Jermaine had visitation rights. The parenting plan was stressful for her.

[Mike Gibson]

That's got to be rough when you're the mother that typically were taking care of the kids and now all of a sudden, it flips on you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Well, there's a reason why we normally see the mother get custody. It might be joined, but more often than not, the kids go with the moment. But I think what this shows you is the power of having some money, having an attorney, going up against someone who doesn't have that.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, makes a difference.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine was not only lonely, but worried for her safety. Michael was jealous when she would speak to other men. She talked to her family about having nightmares and being scared to be alone. At the time of her disappearance, Jermaine had several things to look forward to. She was in a new relationship. She was working at the Big River Cantina on the reservation, but she was looking forward to working as a tribal firefighter over the summer. She went missing shortly before her scheduled interview. And for me, these things always come into play. You know, in these unsolved cases where people go missing, I think it's important to kind of, you know, try to get a sense of the person's state of mind. What do they have going on in their life? What do they have to look forward to? And it sounds like she had a lot.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So is it more likely or less likely that she would voluntarily just kind of leave and never look back?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's less likely. Right, because like you said, she was getting her life turned around. She was happy with a new relationship, she was happy with a new job and looking forward to getting into the firefighter program. And she had her kids, and maybe this was going to change all that, where she could get her kids back more regularly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes, and I think that's a. That's a big point. That's a great point to make. Jermaine visited her aunt Valinda on June 14, 2018, the day before she went missing. She was going to plant trees with the Confederated, Salish and K tribes the following Monday, something she had done regularly in past years. She talked about how she was looking forward to her job fighting wildfires. Jermaine's case is at the forefront of Montana's missing and murdered in Indigenous persons movement. And we have touched on this before. Right, Gibbs. There's an epidemic of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, both in the United States and in Canada.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure is. And always felt like it didn't get the fair share of exposure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think a lot of people have said that over 80% of indigenous women will experience violence in their lifetime. And over 6,000 indigenous women are missing across the US and 80%.

[Mike Gibson]

That's such a large percentage.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's staggering. Yeah, and it's sad. At the same time, in the state of Montana, indigenous people make up only 6% of the population, but 24% of the state's active missing persons cases.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine's case is one of many unsolved cases of missing and murdered in indigenous women in Montana alone. So Jermaine was last seen on CCTV in Downtown Missoula on June 15, 2018. Jermaine and her ex Michael went out together that night. They stopped at three or four bars. As the night progressed, Jermaine was seen on surveillance twice. In the first video, she was walking down the street in downtown Missoula with Michael a few paces behind her. In the second video, she was socializing in an alley outside a bar called the Badlander. Michael was standing behind her. She spoke to a couple of guys she knew. After a short conversation with them, Jermaine and Michael walked out of view together. This is the last known video footage of Jermaine. The following day, June 16, Jermaine's family suspected something was wrong when she didn't respond to calls and texts. She was normally very active on social media and she posted often, but she didn't on this day.

[Mike Gibson]

For somebody on social media, it's not like them to not post something regularly if that's what they always do. So that seems a little strange that she would miss that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I could see if, okay, somebody went on vacation or, you know, something like that. But that coupled with not responding to texts and calls from friends and family, I think you have to put the two together.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

Almost sounds like they're trying to weed people out from filing a case.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe, I guess you can make that case. On June 20, Jermaine's aunt Valinda Morgo drove to the station, which is over an hour from the reservation, and spoke to an officer. Police wanted to speak to Michael, who was believed to be the last person to see Jermaine. And maybe that's one of the reasons why police said they weren't coming out. It was an hour away.

[Mike Gibson]

That could have been, but I think when you're out in that type of country, I feel like everything is an hour away.

[Mike Ferguson]

When police first talked to Michael, he said he dropped Jermaine off at the Orange Street Food Farm, a supermarket that's about a five minute drive from the Badlander Bar. He said the same in text messages to Jermaine's Aunt Belinda. In a subsequent interview, Michael changed his story. This time he said he dropped Jermaine off in a residential area eight blocks west of the store because Jermaine said she was staying with a friend named Cassidy who lived nearby. She walked off in the direction of her friend's house. Obviously, Gibbs, this change in his story was suspicious and police couldn't find anyone named Cassidy that Jermaine knew.

[Mike Gibson]

And we say this a lot, like why do people change their story like this? I mean, he just gave his story not to long ago for him to turn around and change it that quickly. Why is that?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I Don't know. Is it because he thought, well, maybe they have surveillance footage at this Orange street food farm and police are going to go look and find out that, oh, they don't see her.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On that day. So I'll make it a residential area where maybe it's less likely to be caught on camera. Jermaine was not actually going to stay with a friend. Instead, she was going to stay at the apartment of her new boyfriend, Jacob, who lived in the area. Jermaine and Jacob met on a dating app. They weren't together long, but had a strong connection. At the time of Jermaine's disappearance, Jacob was out of town, but told her that she could stay at his place. Her family suspects Jermaine didn't want to tell Michael about her relationship with Jacob and. And may have lied about seeing Cassidy. And I could understand that. I mean, you know, this is a guy who, you know, you have a child with. The relationship was rocky as an understatement.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not sure why they were out that night together, but is that something you really want to tell this person? This person who has been violent in the past?

[Mike Gibson]

Probably not. I mean, she probably thinks he doesn't really need to know this right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Twofold, right? Yeah, he doesn't need to know it. And if I tell it to him, there could be repercussions that I don't want to deal with.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine and Jacob were in communication in the hours before she disappeared. Shortly before 1am on June 16, Jacob attempted to call Jermaine, but she never answered. The phone rang several times before going to voicemail, and Jacob suspected someone purposefully ended the call.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a pretty strong statement.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I don't know. Can you tell maybe by the number of rings before it goes to voicemail? Because I'll be honest with you, I put people to voicemail all the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I know.

[Mike Ferguson]

First of all, I don't like to talk on the phone unless I know who it is. If I don't know who it is, you're going to voicemail.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I've seen you out before and I've called you. I watch you not take my call and send me to voicemail.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. Jacob wasn't considered a suspect because he was out of the state, but he was interviewed to see what he might know. He said that the day before Jermaine went missing, she told him Michael was yelling at her, asking if she was dating anyone and he wanted to get back together. So I think, you know, if you're going back to the family's notion, probably even more likely after learning that, that she didn't want to tell Michael that she was dating this guy Jacob. So she lied and said that she was going to stay with a friend named Cassidy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I'm just thinking about that night, you know, where she's seen on camera walking around with him, and he's kind of behind her, and she's stopping to talk to, you know, this guy, then a couple other guys later. I just have this feeling that Michael was obviously a jealous type of guy. Probably didn't like that. That probably began some conversation off camera. And then if he ever found out that she was dating Jacob, then things might have got kind of ugly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You just wonder, is this a scenario where his level of rage was building? You know, she's talking to one guy. Okay. He starts to get annoyed, perturbed. She's talking to other friends who happen to be males, and this level of rage is just rising and rising. And as you said, if he were to have found out that she was dating this guy, could that have really kind of pushed him beyond his breaking point?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, especially because he wanted to get back with her.

[Mike Ferguson]

The police also talked to the men Jermaine spoke with in the alley. Nick Rolt, Jermaine's ex boyfriend and friend, said Michael wasn't the happiest, that they'd run into each other. Jermaine's friend, Eddie Woodcock, agreed. He said he wasn't very, like, stoked that she was talking to people other than him. When she started talking to us, I just remember him, like, you know, had his arms crossed or whatever, and then he didn't really say anything that entire time. I think, going back to your point, it does make it seem as though Michael was an extremely jealous person.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I'm picturing him with his arms folded with the rage inside of him building, increasing, you know, every minute that he was sitting there listening to them talk.

[Mike Ferguson]

Although Michael told police he and Jermaine were planning to get back together, a bartender working that night noticed Jermaine seemed disinterested in Michael. So you've got a number of conflicting stories. Was this a case where the two were mixing their signals? Right. Michael's thinking, hey, we're getting along. I want to get back together. She's probably thinking, no way. Never going to happen. And so she's being a little aloof or just seems disinterested in him and maybe running into people she knows and having conversations with them, and it kind of just all snowballed. Yeah. The first detective assigned to Jermaine's case worked on it briefly before he had scheduled time off. Belinda Morgo recalled that the detective did his due diligence and checked hospitals and homeless shelters. She was told that Jermaine was not in immediate danger. But Belinda knew deep down that Jermaine was in danger. So I get it. This guy doing his due diligence, it's the right thing to do, right? Check hospitals, homeless shelters. But I don't know how authorities can tell Valinda that Jermaine was not in immediate danger. What evidence did they have to support that? Because it didn't seem to me as though they had found her or knew her whereabouts.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine's family took matters into their own hands and reached out to the Lifeguard Group, a local organization, for help. Volunteers came out to search for Jermaine, marking the first of many searches over the months.

[Mike Gibson]

Man, it's nice to have groups like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. And I'm always amazed how many people are willing to freely give up their time to look for someone to help someone. I mean, it's awesome. It gives you a great feeling. It kind of makes me feel better about humanity and the state of the world. It never fails. In these cases, people sometimes, many times who don't have any connection to the individual who's missing will come out and selflessly donate their time and energy to helping out. It wasn't until June 26 that Detective Guy Baker was assigned to the case. On June 27, detectives obtained Jermaine's cell data, which indicated that between 2am and 10am on June 16, her phone was pinging off a cell tower and in an area known as Navarro Hill. Avaro Hill is a rugged, heavily forested area 14 miles from downtown Missoula on the Flathead Reservation. It is also where Michael Defrance was living at the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Interesting.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, interesting. Also, I think if you're Michael, not a great piece of information. Right. When it comes to ruling you in, ruling you out, or just even making you look good, I think at the very least, police are going to focus in on him even more, which I'm sure they already are. Pretty hard. Because, let's face it, he was the last person known to have been with her, seen her.

[Mike Gibson]

But it's kind of conflicting with his earlier stories.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Because the question then became, if Michael told investigators he dropped Jermaine off in Missoula around 1am why was her phone Pinging north of the city hours later. And this is where we get into. Someone tells a story, and then parts of their story are refuted or proven wrong by evidence by police. Well, what happens? Immediately, they have to pivot. They have to change their story and come up with something different to fit the evidence that's been presented to them. And it just never seems to work out. Well. Why? We talk about it all the time. Right. The truth is the truth.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

When you tell the truth, I mean, very rarely should you ever have to change your story because there is no different story. Also, if you're telling the truth, there really shouldn't be any evidence that could refute that story, because that is really what happened.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. I mean, up to this point, he already changed his story twice.

[Mike Ferguson]

So, I mean, once you change it, it makes you look terrible. But when you get into versions 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, I mean, it's just. It becomes ridicul at some point.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, at that point, you better just have a good attorney on ready to go.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or you should just not say anything.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. Well, a lot of times these guys, these individuals feel like they can outsmart the police or.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Because they think they're smarter than what they are.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And they're not.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're not.

[Mike Gibson]

Sometimes police will just let you talk.

[Mike Ferguson]

They want you to talk.

[Mike Gibson]

The more you talk, the more you're going to get yourself in trouble.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's very rare that you'll see an interview where the detective says, I want you to stop talking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, we know what happened. Stop talking. No, they're going to, like, keep talking.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sure.

[Mike Gibson]

Dig yourself.

[Mike Ferguson]

Whatever you want to say. I'll prop my feet up, make a s'. More.

[Mike Gibson]

Just like when you were managing people when they came in, you already knew, but they wanted to tell you something.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why were you late? Well, when I got up, my tire was flat, so I pumped it up. Then I hit a, you know, a rock that was in the middle of the road. It went flat again. I had to get out, pump it up. Then I swerved to miss a cat. Then the other wheel came off.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I had to go get that fixed. It's just, you know, and you're like,

[Mike Gibson]

you don't forget we're on Facebook together. And I. You posted that you were at your kids school breakfast thing. Just tell me you went to your kids school breakfast thing. Yeah, it would been okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

So he's. He's changing his stories. Right. But then he changed it again, and he said to investigators that he had Germaine's phone with him because she left it behind. He attempted to go through it but was unable to get in to the device. So that's his answer to the, you know, if you dropped her off at 1, how is her phone pinging north near your house between or after 2:00am yeah, well, I had it with me.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you know, it's a. It's a good amendment to his story.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is, but would you not have said that right from the beginning?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think you would like, hey, I got her phone. Maybe it could help you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Two days later, on June 18, he threw her phone out along his trucking route in Idaho at mile marker 94 on Highway 12. Law enforcement searched the area but never found the phone.

[Mike Gibson]

So you have your ex's phone and she's missing, and you think the best thing you can do is throw the phone out the window? Does that even line up with any type of logic?

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And it's also going to do nothing but make you look more guilty in the eyes of the police. On June 27, Michael's mother, Jennifer, spoke to police, telling an officer Jermaine had never been to the residence. She also reported that Michael was still in love with her and wanted to get back together. In the summer of 2018, detectives investigated the possibility that Jermaine was a victim of human trafficking. Detective Guy Baker told 48 Hours, we had some information early on that there might have been some people in Missoula from out of state that were trying to buy a girl. And I was thinking there was a connection there. Investigators were eventually able to rule this out, but that is such a scary thought. We talked about domestic violence and how do we stomp that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

But now when we also have this issue of. Of human trafficking, it's.

[Mike Gibson]

And it's a big problem.

[Mike Ferguson]

It scares the you know what out of me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On August 2nd, the Missoula County Sheriff's Department filed a search warrant application for Michael's property in Avaro Hill. The officer who filed the warrant had reason to believe a crime was committed. The application requested to observe and record by ground and air at any time of day or night and asked for thermal imaging. The application was approved, but officers declined to comment on the results of any searches. But my thought is it either couldn't have been much or anything at all that they found, or it was something that they couldn't disclose. Right. Because it would negatively affect a case moving forward. Maybe.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[Mike Ferguson]

But you would think if it was that damning, then there probably wouldn't have been an arrest coming pretty shortly after

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

On October 2, 2018, police conducted another search of Michael's property. They found in seized guns, which Michael was prohibited from owning due to his 2013 conviction for partner and family member assault against Jermaine. But it would be a few years before Michael's case progressed through the courts. In March 2021, family and friends gathered at the Missoula Police Department to demand action in Jermaine's case. Organizer Danielle Garcia showed MTN News a poster board that had a screenshot of an arrest Warrant filed in November 2018. The document said that an emergency request for cell phone information showed Jermaine's phone was active near her ex's residence until 10am on June 16, 2018. Jermaine's cousin Chayla Russell, said he was the last person with her. Her phone was with him the next morning after he told our family and other police that her phone was with her. But it pinged around or near his home. And the police reports weren't given to us about that. You know, we had to find out about it from a journalist. She was referring to Cree journalist Connie Walker, whose podcast Stolen dedicated an entire season to Jermaine's disappearance. So you know what I'm getting here, Gibbs, is I mean, obviously the family's frustrated.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure, they have to be.

[Mike Ferguson]

There is apparently an arrest Warrant filed in 2018. Here we are in 2021. No arrest has been made.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I get it. Covid happened. But is that a reason why you're not going to arrest somebody?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, they had two years before COVID happened.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

And didn't do anything. In June 2021, the confederated, Salish and Kootenay tribes received anonymous donations that allowed them to increase the reward in jermaine's case to $15,000. On July 28, 2021, Michael Defrance was indicted on firearms charges. The indictment indicated he violated the terms of his 2013 conviction by knowingly possessing firearms and ammunition. In November, he pleaded not guilty to new firearms charges, including false statement during a firearms transaction and being a prohibited person in possession of firearms and ammunition. In 2023, marking five years since Jermaine went missing, Detective Guy Baker told K Pax, I can say with confidence that in the early morning hours of June 16, 2018, Jermaine Charlo's pattern of life was deviated and it changed that night. And she's not had contact with her family, no activity on social media. And that concerns me, the fact that it's been five years. Yes. I believe she is no longer with. But there's been situations across the country where women have been held captive for years and people thought something had happened. As far as Jermaine goes, I'm hopeful, but being thoughtful and realistic, I think she's no longer with us. And, you know, let's face it, Gibbs, in a lot of these cases, when you get 5, 10, 15 years down the road, it's hard for me to believe that when there's no contact with the family, kids, access to bank accounts, if there are any social media posts, sightings. Yeah, it's just hard for me to believe that someone's still alive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, it comes down to either something most likely happened that night, or she was trafficked and has not been able to reach out to her family, if she's still alive.

[Mike Ferguson]

Baker said that the University of Montana Anthropology Department has come to look at bones found in the Avaro Hill area and other locations to determine if they're human. But they have not been human remains so far. On May 1, 2023, Michael Defrance was found guilty on all counts, including being a prohibited person in possession of a firearm and three counts of false statement during a firearm transaction. His trial started on April 26. Federal prosecutors alleged in court documents and at trial that on June 27, 2018, a Missoula Police detective located a.357 caliber revolver and a box of.357ammo in the console of Michael's truck. Two.22 caliber rifles were located under the back seat. On October 2 of that year, law enforcement executed A search warrant on Michael's residence and found a.3 57 caliber revolver on a desk by the front door. The detective recognized it as the gun Michael had in his truck in June. He also had two rifles in his bedroom. When asked if he knew he was not supposed to have guns, Michael replied, I was never clear on that.

[Mike Gibson]

I think they make it really clear.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes, I believe they do.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That as a felon, you are not supposed to. Are not allowed to purchase or own firearms. Pretty sure your parole or even have them.

[Mike Gibson]

Your parole officer will ask you, do you have any firearms in this house?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I know you've been through that many times. So you can speak to that with. With, you know, from a place of knowledge.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, when they're, you know, connecting that anklet thing to you as well, you know, they're asking you all kind of questions.

[Mike Ferguson]

The government further asserted that in May 2013, Michael was sentenced for partner or family member assault on Jermaine Charlo. A justice of the peace presided over Michael's change of plea hearing and imposed sentence. Michael signed a waiver of rights form in which he acknowledged his rights, which included, on a list of possible consequences of pleading guilty, the loss of firearms rights. The same form contained space for Michael to explain the basis of his guilty plea. His form stated, On 4 14, 2013, in Sanders County, I caused bodily injury to my girlfriend. Prosecutors further alleged that on three occasions in 2018, Michael completed ATF forms at a Missoula pawn shop in which he represented that he had not been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. So, I mean, I think they're doing a pretty good job, right, of proving that this guy not only knew that he was prohibited from having any types of firearms, three different times he went and lied on government forms to purchase

[Mike Gibson]

firearms, knowingly did so.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it definitely seems that way. On September 21, 2023, Michael was sentenced to 21 months in federal prison. The defense asked for probation, characterizing Michael as a married family man who took care of his children. Jermaine's family was in court. During sentencing, Valinda Underwood told K Pax, it's not exactly the victory that we wanted, just this smallest bit of justice. I'm happy that he has to go away, and I'm hoping that will still be in place with the appeal, but it's something for right now. And I get what she's saying. I firmly believe that Jermaine's family is of the opinion that Michael had something to do with her disappearance. Yeah, but it does not Seem as though, at least at this point, police can prove that. So they're taking this as kind of a small victory. Yeah, a little win that he has to go away. It's not for what they want, but like you said, a little went.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But. In December 2024, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals reversed Michael's conviction and vacated his sentence. The court found that the Montana statute Michael was prosecuted under does not meet the requirements for the federal charge. According to K. Pax, this decision has to do with a mismatch between the state and federal definitions of bodily injury. Montana law encompasses emotional violence and doesn't just consider physical injury. A conviction under this statute cannot qualify as misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as laid out by Congress. It's possible to be found guilty of violating the Montana law for verbal or emotional abuse, and that would not necessarily meet the criteria of physical force under the federal definition. But state prosecutors said that in practice, cases involving no physical violence fall under a separate charge. Michael admitted to physically assaulting Jermaine. But the judges said Supreme Court precedent blocked them from considering the facts of the case, and they focused just on definition. So a little frustrating, I think. You know, some of these court decisions are. Yeah. You know, you have not so much opinion in this one as it is kind of maybe the definition of something and. And how it applies to the letter of the law. And sometimes that stuff's just disappointing when it doesn't come out the way you think it should.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Kind of like, depends on how you define the word. Is. Is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Speaking of Bill, he's. He's back in depositions lately.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I seen that last week.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, as of now, Jermaine Charlo has not been found. No one has seen or heard from her since the early hours of June 16, 2018. Her family still hopes that one day she might be found, but as I think is often the case, they no longer believe she's alive. And let's face it, it's been eight years or will be eight years this June. That is a long time.

[Mike Gibson]

It is a long time.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's important to note that Michael defrance has never been named as a suspect or charged in any way in connection to Jermaine's disappearance. If you have any information about Jermaine Charlotte, contact Missoula Police Detective Guy Baker at 406-552-6284. So, you know I just said, right? Michael's not been named a suspect. He's not been charged. There's no Doubt, though, that he's on the radar of many people. He has to be on the radar of police in some capacity.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm assuming he's a person of interest.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. If you look online, there's a lot of suspicion thrown his way. Right. By people debating this case. Amateur sleuths. You know, he was seen with her on camera. This whole thing about the phone traveling north. When he said that, you know, he dropped her off at 1pm then later changed his story to say, well, I had her phone with me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The changing of the story multiple times, it just never looks good for someone.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, you could make the argument that, all right, a person gets nervous and they say something and then later realize that they misspoke and they need to correct it. That could happen. But again, some of these things are people trying to make sense of the evidence as it is presented to them.

[Mike Gibson]

Why the hell do you throw a phone away?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't know what the defense for that is or even would be.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

What story could you craft that would make sense for that one? But, you know, will this be solved? I don't know. I don't think we're talking about some type of DNA hit here. It's possible, but I don't think this is a DNA type case. There's always the possibility of some kind of confession from somebody down the road. And there is, you'd have to say, a slim chance that, you know, maybe Jermaine is off somewhere in another country if she was trafficked, being held against her will. Possibility, you know, does she escape? Does she somehow make her way back to the US and back to her family? Some type of resolution in this case, though, would be amazing for the family because until they get it, they're just left wondering. Yeah, they have no idea. But that's it for our episode on Jermaine Charlo. We got a voicemail. Gibbs, you want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Matt from New Jersey (Voicemail Caller)]

Morning, guys. This is Matt calling from New Jersey. I've been listening for years and years and years now. I always wondered two things. What goes into making an episode? And do you ever get voicemails from victims or the accused? Anything related to some of the episodes that you've done? I'm really curious about that. But anyway, I appreciate you guys so, so much. You make all the mundane tasks in life a lot more fun. And I feel like you guys are kind of like my friends. So hope you have a wonderful week ahead. Keep your own time ticking. And I'm team both of you guys. Take care.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Matt from New Jersey. You know, appreciate you being Team Gibby. You know, I kind of read between the lines there. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, you're doing a lot of reading between the lines lately, which doesn't seem to have a basis in fact.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, he's from New Jersey.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a terrible, that's a terrible accent.

[Mike Gibson]

Why is it terrible? It's New Jersey.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't even know what that is.

[Mike Gibson]

Jersey, man. Come on, just.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh my. I am going to send you to a vocal coach or something.

[Mike Gibson]

Good Jersey.

[Mike Ferguson]

You can keep saying it that way. It's not great.

[Mike Gibson]

All the good.

[Mike Ferguson]

So it's a great voicemail with great question. Right. I'll try to answer them as quickly as I can. As far as the show and this is going to simplify it, but obviously there's the research portion, which is a big part of it. It, it is, you know, getting all the sources and everything to put the story together. The recording is pretty easy. That's our fun part.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because we sit here for four or five hours and record a couple of episodes.

[Mike Gibson]

It's all me, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. I mean, you drive the whole thing. You're riding, you're driving the bus. And then there's the editing part, which is the most monotonous of all. First of all, I have to listen to us talk again. And nobody likes to listen to themselves talk. But you're listening. You're trying to listen for imperfections and little things. And it takes a, it takes a really long time, but you do a

[Mike Gibson]

good job at it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I appreciate it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But that's, I mean, that's the basic right of, of how the, the podcasts go. And we have received a number of calls. First of all, very early on in, In True Crime, all the time, we received a call from the parents of, you know, the murdered girl. We did an episode on very early on and then we, we had a whole conversation with them that was amazing. But it scared me when they first reached out. I have also received calls from at one time the last victim of a well known serial killer. I won't say it because I don't want to anybody to even figure out who this person is. She was very, very young when it happened and now she's probably close to our age.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we had a very long conversation. She was able to fill me in on details that you couldn't find anywhere right now. We'd already done the episode and I wouldn't put him in anyway because I wouldn't want you know, to compromise her identity. But that was one of the most fascinating conversations I've ever had because she was there. She lived it. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

And you always get those callers that. Or emails from people that are related to somebody in the case too, or

[Mike Ferguson]

had a brush with a killer in some strange way. The one thing I will say is I don't believe we've ever gotten a nasty call.

[Mike Gibson]

We had some creepy calls.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no. I mean about how our coverage, like.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, no.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, I. I've had people say, well, you got this wrong. But they're not. They're not like family members. I've never had a family member reach out and say, you know, just what you're saying is absolutely ridiculous. Right. But. But we appreciate the voicemail very much.

[Mike Gibson]

We do.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime. All the time unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time. Tickets. Sam. Pluto TV has thousands of free movies and TV shows. I swear, if I'm lying, I'm dying.

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This is the mindset.

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Free.

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This is the mantra.

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[Mike Ferguson]

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