The Zodiac Killer Part 3

Summary

True Crime All The Time Unsolved

The Zodiac Killer Part 3

Episode 402 | Released: February 17, 2025
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson
Special Guest: "Morph" (Mike Morford, Zodiac researcher and co-host of Criminology)

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Episode Overview

In this concluding part of the Zodiac Killer trilogy, Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson delve into the most enduring mystery in American true crime: the identity of the Zodiac Killer. The episode focuses on the key suspects considered over decades, why each has drawn attention—and doubt—and what recent investigative efforts, including breakthroughs in genealogy and cipher-solving, may finally bring resolution. Joining the discussion is "Morph," noted Zodiac researcher and podcast host, who shares his deep insights into the suspect landscape and the ever-evolving investigation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Recap of Previous Parts & Episode Focus

• Previous episodes: Timeline of attacks, ciphers, final confirmed victim, more correspondence, and suspected cases.
• Part 3: Deep dive into top suspects and those who helped solve ciphers.
  (03:00)
  Mike Ferguson: "In part three, we're going to dive in and cover some of the top Zodiac suspects, including the only man publicly named by authorities in connection with the case..."

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2. The Vast Suspect Landscape

• Authorities considered over 2,500 suspects; estimates run as high as 4,000.
• Wild theories have included famous criminals like Ted Kaczynski and Charles Manson.
• The hosts stress how the case’s fame and longevity have inspired countless confessions and accusations—even familial claims.
  (04:10–08:14)

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3. Detailed Profiles of Key Suspects

Lawrence Kane

• Worked at Lake Tahoe hotel; suspected victim Donna Lass worked there too.
• Arrest history: Peeping (1961) and prowling (1968).
• Suspected by multiple witnesses: Darlene Farren’s sister, an officer at Stine scene, and abduction survivor Kathleen Johns.
• Died in 2010.
  (04:15–06:01)

Ross Sullivan

• Library employee where Sherry Jo Bates was last seen, disappeared after her murder.
• Wore army-style boots matching Lake Berryessa crime scene prints.
• Suffered from bipolar disorder, schizophrenia.
• Formerly favored by "Morph" but later mostly ruled out due to lack of evidence placing him at key locations.
  (06:01–07:33, 49:11–51:01)

Earl Van Best Jr. (via son Gary Stewart)

• Stewart alleged his biological father was Zodiac.
• Basis: Resemblance to sketch, interest in ciphers, similar acquaintances, handwriting "matches".
• Ruled out due to unreliable cipher-solving and forensic inconsistencies (marriage certificate writing wasn’t Best’s, fingerprints reversed). (07:33–11:00)

Louis Myers (via friend Randy Kinney)

• Deathbed confession: Claimed he was Zodiac, started killing at 17 for revenge.
• Links: Knew some victims, worked at same restaurant, possible access to boots.
• Spent suspected Zodiac "downtime" years overseas in Army, which aligns with Zodiac’s letter gaps—but witness descriptions don’t fit.
• Authorities doubtful a teenager could be Zodiac; no confirming evidence.
  (11:00–18:43)

Richard Marshall

• Ham radio operator, projectionist; lived near suspected Zodiac activity.
• Owned typewriter, teletype, discussed finding something “more exciting than sex.”
• Liked films and literature referenced in Zodiac letters; ruled out by most experts.
  (19:14–20:48)

Richard Gaikowski

• Counterculture newspaper editor, accused by “Gold Catcher” after suspicious behavior and vocal similarity.
• Ruled out: Lack of credible evidence; DNA not compared.
  (20:48–21:43)

Jack Terrence (via stepson Dennis Kaufman)

• Physical and circumstantial resemblance, claimed possession of incriminating evidence.
• Handwriting "matched" by only a challenged expert; claims dismissed by law enforcement.
  (21:43–24:07)

Donald Lee Bujok

• Former convict tied in theory via cipher interpretations and allegedly Zodiac-like ideas in prison.
• Points debunked by physical evidence and timeline. (24:07–26:37)

Arthur Leigh Allen (Most Notorious Suspect)

• The only publicly named Zodiac suspect by authorities.
• Taught codes to school children; owned cross-circle Zodiac watch.
• Behaviors, comments, and alibi details match Zodiac themes (“Most Dangerous Game”, murder-focused music, ideas for school bus attacks).
• Underwent multiple searches; items and behaviors suspicious, but forensic comparison (DNA, handwriting, fingerprints) never matched Zodiac evidence.
• Strongest circumstantial case yet always lacking definitive proof.
  (26:37–37:37)

  Mike Gibson: “He’s the only one the police have ever came out and mentioned.” (41:03)

William Mac Andrew (Special segment by Morph, 50:39–57:23; see below)

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4. Suspect Theories: Patterns, Pitfalls, and Motivation

• Common thread: Partial matches. Each suspect is compelling yet fatally flawed for various reasons.
• Host skepticism toward “publisher-driven” suspect claims (books, confessions for profit).
• The challenge of memory after decades, and the ease of reading modern Zodiac evidence and then “finding” it in a suspect’s past.
  (18:43–24:07, 37:44–38:21)

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5. DNA and Investigative Breakthroughs

• Recent DNA advances using genealogy (Vallejo police efforts) could yield a profile.
• Previous DNA attempts yielded partial, inconclusive results (e.g., Allen’s DNA).
• Progress mirrors other cases (Golden State Killer) but evidence may be compromised by how Zodiac handled his mail.
• Law enforcement suggests most likely killer: local, military or police background. (41:29–45:33)

  Mike Ferguson: “It really comes down to DNA. Without it, you have nothing. It’s a 50 years old case.” (42:06)
  Mike Gibson: “If they could figure out the [stamp] licker, then the licker could tell them…” (44:46)

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6. Insights from Special Guest “Morph” (Mike Morford)

Morph’s Evolution as a Zodiac Researcher

• Initially favored Ross Sullivan, but re-examined and ruled him out due to lack of physical presence and schizophrenia-related absences.
• Advises focusing on confirmed Zodiac attacks, not speculative Riverside links.

Morph’s Current Top Suspect: William Mac Andrew

• Lived within 280 feet of the phone booth where Zodiac made a call after Blue Rock Springs attack.
• Handwriting: “Looks remarkably like Zodiac’s.”
• Physical match: Height, weight, glasses, shooting expertise, code/cipher obsession.
• Life changes align with Zodiac's letter-writing gaps (job changes, engagement).
• Theory: Mac Andrew possibly went home, changed, then made the “infamous” phone call to police—explaining the timeline discrepancy.

  Morph: “I thought he walked to that phone booth, called the police, and then walked back to his house so he could watch the police responding to that phone booth. That’s in my mind what I think he did.” (55:42–56:28)

• Openly shares findings on online forums, seeking truth, not fame.

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7. Cipher Breakthroughs

• 2023: Zodiac’s “340 cipher” finally solved by David Oranchak, Jarl Van Eyck, and Sam Blake after 50 years.
• Message: Zodiac taunting police, not afraid of death, references “paradise”, and addresses false claims to his crimes.

  Mike Ferguson: “The cipher said, ‘I hope you are having lots of fun in trying to catch me... I am not afraid of the gas chamber, because it will send me to paradise all the sooner…’” (58:37)

• Cipher breakthrough a rare bright spot but didn’t yield direct clues to his identity.
• Listener voicemail: "The epitome of the behemoth" claimed as a solution to a cipher, hosts intrigued.
  (65:40)

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8. Recent Developments & Ongoing Debunkings

• 2021: "Casebreakers" named Gary Francis Poste as Zodiac—dismissed by Riverside PD as unrelated to the Bates murder and lacking real evidence.
• Modern documentaries and Netflix series continue exploring old and new suspects, many centering on Arthur Leigh Allen.
• Siblings of Seawater family (formerly close to Allen) recall chilling encounters and later alleged confessions, but official skepticism remains. (38:21–41:16, 61:06–61:19)

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9. Closing Reflections

• Zodiac’s confirmed body count stopped in 1969, claims of 37 victims.
• Possible reasons for stopping: Death, prison, age, outside life changes, or moving to new crimes in other locales.
• Punishing the killer now seems unlikely, but solving the case would be an extraordinary victory for the public and victims’ families.

  Mike Ferguson: "To me, the punishment part is probably out the window… It’s more about solving this mystery that has consumed so many people for so many years." (63:43)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-----------------|-------| |05:46 | Mike Gibson | "Sounds promising." (On Lawrence Kane)| |13:44 | Mike Ferguson | "...maybe one of the females was actually known by the killer. That's been a theory."| |28:13 | Mike Ferguson | "...To me, it did seem like the writer of the letters was a fairly intelligent person, maybe a very intelligent person who was trying to pass themselves off as unintelligent by misspelling words on purpose."| |41:03 | Mike Gibson | "And the only one the police have ever came out and mentioned." (Arthur Leigh Allen)| |44:53 | Mike Ferguson | "If you don’t have the licker, you’ve got nothing."| |49:11 | Morph | "My favorite suspect was Ross Sullivan... In the year since... I pretty much ruled him out."| |55:24 | Mike Ferguson | "That is one person we did not talk about. I don’t think he’s a real top-of-mind guy..." (On Mac Andrew)| |55:42 | Morph | "I thought he walked to that phone booth, called the police, and then walked back to his house so he could watch the police responding... that’s in my mind what I think he did."| |63:43 | Mike Ferguson | "To me, the punishment part is probably out the window… It’s more about solving this mystery that has consumed so many people for so many years."| |65:40 | Listener Kaisha | "If you use each [cipher] letter individually, it spells the sentence 'the epitome of the behemoth.'..."| |67:21 | Mike Gibson | "Sorry, I was falling asleep." (Joking that the hosts’ voices are soothing to listeners)|

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:38 – Show kicks off top suspects
• 05:08 – Lawrence Kane discussion
• 06:01 – Ross Sullivan profile
• 07:33 – Stewart/Best theory
• 11:00 – Deathbed confession: Louis Myers
• 15:27 – Zodiac’s break in letters aligns with Myers’ Army service
• 19:14 – Richard Marshall
• 20:48 – Richard Gaikowski/Jack Terrence
• 24:07 – Donald Lee Bujok
• 26:37 – Arthur Leigh Allen: deep dive
• 38:21 – Cold case investigation, DNA, jurisdiction problems
• 41:29 – Genetic genealogy and DNA possibilities
• 46:30 – Special guest "Morph" joins
• 49:11–57:23 – Morph’s suspect analysis (Ross Sullivan to Mac Andrew)
• 58:37 – 340 cipher solved
• 61:06 – Gary Francis Poste theory, Casebreakers’ claims
• 67:21 – Listener voicemails

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Episode Tone and Style

The hosts blend irreverent asides (“You were two and you jumped out of that airplane.”) with an earnest dedication to true crime detail and victim advocacy. The episode is conversational and friendly, welcoming of speculation but skeptical of far-fetched claims. “Morph’s” passion and expertise add gravitas.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a comprehensive examination of the Zodiac Killer suspect pool, explaining why each has drawn both suspicion and skepticism—while emphasizing how, even today, the case continues to frustrate investigators and fascinate the public. The hosts carefully weigh the evidence, highlighting advances in forensic science and cipher-solving, and hear from Zodiac expert "Morph" about new theories and overlooked suspects.

While no “final answer” is given—the saga remains unsolved—the episode leaves listeners with a sense of ongoing hope that one day, advanced technology or new confessions might bring closure to one of America’s greatest mysteries.

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For More:

• Listen to past Zodiac episodes for chronology, ciphers, and suspected attacks.
• Check out Morph's contributions on the podcast "Criminology" and Zodiac forums for deep research.
• Stay tuned for developments in DNA technology and genealogy that could finally unmask the Zodiac.

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Stay safe—and, as always, keep your own time ticking.

Transcript

[Morph]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Not available in all states. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 402 of the True Crime all the Time Unsolved podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great. I'm excited to record this final episode on the Zodiac.

[Mike Gibson]

Me too.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we have a special guest.

[Mike Gibson]

We do.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's going to join us on the show, so that'll be great. But let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Rachel Deacon.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Deacon.

[Mike Ferguson]

Ebony Ott.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Ott.

[Mike Ferguson]

Mary Elaine Henderson.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, thanks, Mary. Elaine.

[Mike Ferguson]

Angie.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Angie?

[Mike Ferguson]

Lisa Marquez.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Marquez.

[Mike Ferguson]

Linda Stiles.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Linda.

[Mike Ferguson]

Justina Jarbo.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, thanks, jj.

[Mike Ferguson]

Renee, Nikkin.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Renee?

[Mike Ferguson]

Cedric Garon.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, Cedric, thanks.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Andrea Brennan.

[Mike Gibson]

I appreciate that, Andrea.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Claire Siro. Melvin.

[Mike Gibson]

So Ro. Melon.

[Mike Ferguson]

So you say Melon. So we appreciate the long term support as well. All right, so we have an episode right now out on True Crime all the Time and it's about Scott Watson and the disappearance of Ben Smart and Olivia Hope. You know, we head to New Zealand and this is one of their most high profile and controversial true crime cases. And there's a reason why this is kind of a departure from a lot of the TCAT cases that we do. It is a lot of people are questioning whether this is the guy or not.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a really good case. You got to listen to it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. Make sure you check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time Unsolved I am. In part one, we talked about a timeline of known and suspected attacks. We talked about the first letters and ciphers. In part two, we focused on the final confirmed Zodiac murder. More correspondence and additional suspected Zodiac cases. In part three, we're going to dive in and cover some of the top Zodiac suspects, including the only man publicly named by authorities in connection with the case, as well as the efforts of those who solved the Zodiac's ciphers.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, and then pull in our special guest.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. So over 2,500 suspects have been considered in the Zodiac case. And you think about that number, and it's a lot, no doubt about it. But as big as this case is and as old as it is and as many people who are heavily invested in it, that number seems right. I could see it being even more. If it was higher, it wouldn't surprise me.

[Mike Gibson]

I remember the one detective said he had 4,000 people of interest at one point.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sure, yeah. But there have been all kinds of theories, right? One theory is that it was Unabomber. Ted Kaczynski, he was the Zodiac. Charles Manson, people have said, you know, was the Zodiac. According to the History Channel, one of the more logical potential suspects was a man named Lawrence Kane. Kane worked in the same Lake Tahoe hotel as Donna Lass, the suspected Zodiac victim who disappeared in 1970. Kane also served in the Naval Reserves and may have learned coding during his time in the military. Additionally, a 1962 car accident left Kane with a brain injury that could have compromised his impulse control. He had a history of troubling behavior. He was arrested for peeping in 1961 and for prowling in 1968.

[Mike Gibson]

The two pee pees?

[Mike Ferguson]

The two pee pees. Peeping and prowling.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

A retired detective who looked into the case in the 80s claimed Cain's name was embedded in one of the Zodiac ciphers. The detective also said that victim Darlene Farren's sister viewed a photo of Cain and identified him as the man who harassed Darlene at her waitressing job. One San Francisco officer who responded to the Paul Stine murder, who witnessed the suspect walking away from the crime scene, viewed Kane's photo and said he looked more like the Zodiac than anyone else he had seen.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds promising.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it is. And then finally, Kathleen Johns, who escaped after being abducted in 1970, also identified King as the abductor.

[Mike Gibson]

She would have spent significant amount of time in the car, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, we said about two hours. Yeah, with him. But Lawrence Kane died in 2010. A second potential suspect was Ross Sullivan, who Worked at the Riverside City College Library, where Sherry Jo Bates was last seen alive. Library staff reported that Sullivan made them uncomfortable and disappeared for several days after the murder. He had a crew cut and glasses similar to the Zodiac composite sketch. And he wore an army jacket and military boots, often referred to as Wing Walker boots, like those that formed the footprints at the Lake Berryessa crime scene. Some of the Zodiac letters reference The Mikado, a 19th century comic opera by Gilbert and Sullivan. Some view this as a reference to Sullivan's name. And we didn't spend a lot of time talking about the letters that referenced the Mikado, but they're creepy, and they go in pretty in depth.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sullivan moved to Northern California in 1967 and was hospitalized several times for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. And I remember when Morph and I did season one of Criminology. Right. The whole season was dedicated to the Zodiac. Morph is what I would consider a Zodiac expert. This Ross Sullivan guy, I think at the time, was his number one suspect. He liked him the most. Now, that's been like, six, seven years ago, and some things have changed. In 2014, Gary Stewart published the Most Dangerous of All. In his book, he claims his biological father, Earl Van Best Jr. Was the Zodiac Killer. Bess died in 1984. And let's face it, there have been a lot of people that have come out and said, my father was the Zodiac, my grandfather, my brother, whoever, my uncle. You have that in a lot of famous unsolved cases.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you do.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, look at DB Cooper. How many people have said that somebody in their family was D.B.

[Mike Gibson]

Cooper, when in fact, it was me?

[Mike Ferguson]

And everybody. Everybody knows it. Yeah. You were two and you jumped out of that airplane.

[Morph]

That's right.

[Mike Gibson]

Surprised they didn't say that D.B. cooper was the Zodiac.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm sure somebody has said that.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably have.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm sure somebody has. Gary Stewart was born in New Orleans. He was abandoned as a newborn and adopted. His biological mother, Judy, contacted him for the first time when he was 39 years old. Stuart also searched for his biological father. He had his father's name, but Earl Van Best never contacted his son. At one point during Stuart's search, He was watching TV and saw a 1969 wanted poster from the San Francisco Police Department. Stuart was shocked when he realized he looked similar to the Zodiac composite sketch, and his son even pointed out the resemblance. Stuart went into his office and pulled out an old mugshot of his father, who also resembled the sketch. Earl Van Best did live in California at the time of the murders. He was interested in ciphers, and he knew a Satanist and Manson family member who liked words by Gilbert and Sullivan, such as the Mikado.

[Mike Gibson]

There's that Mikado.

[Mike Ferguson]

Best served time in prison for the statutory rape of Gary Stewart's mother and may have held a grudge against San Francisco Chronicle reporter Paul Avery, who wrote a series of articles about the couple. And here's the thing about a lot of these suspects. You know, are there kernels that make you think, okay, this person could look good? Absolutely.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Could that person look good for that one particular crime only?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

When you might have the Zodiac, but you have a lot of similar murders that resemble that, and so it makes you think, well, they had to be the Zodiac.

[Mike Ferguson]

Gary Stewart claimed he found his father's initials in the Zodiac ciphers. A document examiner said the handwriting on Best marriage certificate matched the Zodiacs. But Best fingerprints didn't match the ones found on Paul Stine's cat. But a mark that could have been a scar was found on both sets of prints.

[Mike Gibson]

So going back to the cipher, finding the initials, if you want to believe those are the initials, would you find those initials in a cipher?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you know what your father's initials are?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So you're saying, could you find them? Possibly. Yeah. But could they just be three random letters that just happen to be in that succession? Yeah, could be. Best has been ruled out by experts who question Stuart's methods for solving the cipher. Best fingerprint mark was similar to the Zodiac print, only if it was reversed. Finally, the handwriting on the marriage certificate was actually the minister's, and it wasn't Bess at all. So you're going to have this with a lot of the suspects, right? There are going to be some things that people say and maybe even some things that are facts that make you think, yeah, okay, let's take a look at that. But then somebody is going to look into this person, and they're going to find some things that virtually either make it impossible for them to have been the Zodiac, or at the very least, disprove all the things that kind of made them look like they could be. Yeah, the Zodiac. Another man came forward in 2014 claiming his friend was the Zodiac. Randy Kinney reported that his friend Louis Myers confessed to being the Zodiac killer. In April 2001, doctors informed Meyers he was dying of cirrhosis of the liver. According to Kenney, Myers said, I killed some people. I'm the guy they're looking for. They've been looking for me for over 30 years. I'm the guy that's the Zodiac Killer. Okay, so you have a deathbed confession. And you and I have talked many, many times about some unsolved cases that could potentially be solved, maybe only by a deathbed confession. Because at what other point would it be in anybody's interest to confess to a crime unless you knew for a fact you were dying?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you were going to have to pay the price for it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Meyers lived in Vallejo from 1965 to 1971. He claimed he started killing when he was only 17 because a girl broke up with him. And this is why he targeted couples.

[Mike Gibson]

More of a revenge killing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you know, there has been a question, why the lover's lane? Why couples?

[Mike Gibson]

And he really hated the women.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that has led a lot of people to think that it really wasn't so much the couple's aspect as it was the focus was the female.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And maybe one of the females was actually known by the killer. That's been a theory. Kenny also said that Myers attended both Vallejo and Hogan high schools and might have known David Faraday, who attended Vallejo, and Betty Lou Jensen, who attended Hogan. Myers worked as a busboy at Terry's Restaurant in Vallejo, where victim Darlene Farren also worked. And we talked about this military boot print, this Wing Walker print, as it's been called at the Lake Berryessa crime scene. Myers father worked on Mare island in Vallejo and would have had this type of boot. Myers also briefly worked for Victory Military Surplus in Vallejo. So, again, a lot of connections, if true.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, some things are lining up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. He worked with one of the victims. He might have gone to school with two of the victims. Kenny claimed that Meyers didn't know Paul Stine and was just robbing him for drug money. Myers had a criminal record in Vallejo that included disorderly conduct, theft and possession of stolen property. He joined the army and was stationed in Germany between June 1971 and January 1973.

[Mike Gibson]

Fits that time frame perfectly, doesn't it?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, at least part of it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

The Zodiac didn't send any letters during this time period. I think it might have even gone into 1974. After leaving the Army, Myers moved to New York and worked as a trucker. It was said that his route included the Bay Area area.

[Mike Gibson]

Didn't we talk about a letter at one point from New York?

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, the Albany. Yeah, Albany area. Kenny told ABC7 that Myers tried to hint at his age in the Halloween card postmarked October 27, 1970. The Halloween card Said look for teen. All right? And at that time, the authorities just thought it meant 14 victims, but it meant look for a teen as though this guy was a teenager. And I think what I struggle with as far as that, you go back to all the Zodiac descriptions, none of them sounded like a teenager to me. Look like a teenager. So that one's a little tough to think that a 17 year old was responsible for these murders because, you know, the descriptions we gave just didn't line up with that.

[Mike Gibson]

No, just seemed like a much older man.

[Mike Ferguson]

Myers apparently told Kenny that the Zodiac symbol was really a Celtic cross and not crosshairs. Myers was obsessed with his Scottish heritage, which is why he chose that symbol.

[Mike Gibson]

I could see maybe how that symbol.

[Mike Ferguson]

Could be Scottish or that it was pulled from a Zodiac watch.

[Mike Gibson]

That as well.

[Mike Ferguson]

Myers asked his friend to wait until after he died to tell the police he wanted Kenny to write a book and give the proceeds to the victim's family. Louie Myers died in 2002. Kenny claimed he spent years trying to get the police to listen. He believes his friend was telling the truth.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, when I think about this deathbed confession and it's coming from the Zodiac, I just feel like the Zodiac would have said, I know there's going to be a lot of doubt because I was so famous.

[Mike Ferguson]

Here's the proof.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. Here's my little cigar box full of stuff that will concrete this in.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Here's another piece of Paul Stine's shirt or something. Something I've kept behind. Yeah. The other thing that you have to keep in mind is very often there seems to be a book.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

That coincides with somebody claiming they know who the Zodiac is.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And it's going to help sell that book.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. It doesn't mean they don't believe it, but, you know, there might be some profiting off of it as well. Myers friend Rob Robitaille claimed Meyers confessed to him in 1976. He didn't believe it. He said, it freaked me out for a second, then I just pushed it aside. We never talked about it again. According to ABC7, authorities are skeptical a teenager could have pulled off the Zodiac attacks. And Meyers doesn't fit witness descriptions. So we talked about that part. The other part is, you know, could a teenager have pulled off these attacks, these murders, you know, possibly.

[Mike Gibson]

I would just think the woman that was in the car for Zodiac for two hours would have said he was a teenager.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, good point. But she did also identify another person.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

So. But there's A difference. Right. Telling the police right after it happened, what this guy looked like, how old he was, is much different than maybe years later looking at a photograph and saying, yeah, I think that's him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Another suspect is Richard Marshall, a ham radio operator and movie projectionist. Marshall lived in Riverside in 1966 and lived in the area of San Francisco where Paul Stine was murdered. Marshall owned a typewriter and teletype similar to those used by the Zodiac. Those who visited his home told the police he was peculiar and had talked about finding something much more exciting than sex. And there was something in, you know, one of Zodiac's letters. Right. That kind of said killing was better than sexual. Not in those words, but something like that. He liked old movies, including the Red Phantom. The signature included in the Zodiac's July 8, 1974 letter.

[Mike Gibson]

So some little ties here and there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And we've talked about the Zodiac movie a few times. Right. Based on Robert Graysmith's books. Rick Marshall is where Graysmith goes. His home is where he goes at the end. He goes down in the basement. Marshall actually did a TV interview in 1989 and denied being the killer. He was ruled out by most experts. He died in a nursing home in 2008. Another common name that appears on the suspect list is Richard Gi, who edited a counterculture paper in San Francisco. A former coworker sent a lengthy letter to law enforcement and accusing Gaikowski of being the Zodiac, claiming he invited him to participate in violent acts. The accuser, who went by the nickname Gold Catcher, appeared in disguise on an episode of History's mystery quest in 2009 and provided recordings of Gaikowski. A police dispatcher who spoke to the Zodiac was also interviewed for the show and said Gaikowski's voice sounded the same.

[Mike Gibson]

But couldn't you say that about several voices?

[Mike Ferguson]

A lot of, yeah, voices to me, would be tough. Very tough. Especially if this is a person who's talking about it, what, 40 years later. Yeah. And you're hearing the voice and you're saying, yeah, that sounds like it. Gold Catcher was dismissed because he was a known conspiracy theorist with little credibility.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that definitely hurts.

[Mike Ferguson]

Doesn't help you at all. Napa County Detective Ken Narlo interviewed Gaikowski. He claimed he was out of the country at the time of the Lake Herman Road murders, but had lost his passport. Both San Francisco and Napa police denied request to compare Gaikowski's DNA to the Zodiac's, and gaikowski died in 2004. So why did they not follow up? I'm assuming it's because they did not believe he was a Zodiac. Just didn't have enough to even compare his DNA. Yeah, a man named Dennis Kaufman believed his late stepfather, Jack Terrence, was the killer. He thought Terrence was remarkably similar to the composite sketch. Kaufman also claimed he had incriminating evidence against Terrance in including a roll of film depicting possible victims and a hooded costume like the one worn by the Zodiac at Lake Berryessa. Okay, so stepdad is the Zodiac.

[Mike Gibson]

So he claims he has these photos, but we don't know if he really has them. And if he does have them, what do they even mean?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't know what it means when you say possible victim. Are these just pictures of women that are alive that he thinks could be possible victims? What's a hooded costume? Something he made and then took a picture. You see, you just never know about these things.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, too vague.

[Mike Ferguson]

In a 2007 documentary, a document examiner said Terrence's handwriting matched the Zodiac's. However, law enforcement dismissed Kaufman's evidence, and researchers challenge the document examiner's credibility. Jack, terrence died in 2006. And that's the other thing, Right? The handwriting is so important in the Zodiac case because there's so much of it. Sure there is, but there are a lot of quote, unquote handwriting experts who have claimed over the years that this person's a match, this person's a match. A whole bunch of different people match. Well, not everybody can match. No. So somebody's not right. Or everybody's not right.

[Mike Gibson]

It sounds like nobody's right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Researcher Kevin Robert Brooks found circumstantial evidence against Donald Lee BoJack, who was released from a Montana prison after serving just 11 years of his life sentence for killing a sheriff's deputy. He. And we talked about it in episode one, but survivor Brian Hartnell said the hooded man who stabbed them escaped from a Montana prison.

[Mike Gibson]

So there's your tie in.

[Mike Ferguson]

But how do you serve 11 years of a life sentence for killing a sheriff's deputy?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it seems really light.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm shocked by that. According to Brook, fellow Inmates said BoJack talked about killing people to make them slaves in the afterlife, which the Zodiac also wrote about in one of the letters. Brooks also wrote that the Halloween card sent to reporter Paul Avery depicted the harsh conditions at the prison and that the boo in the card was a reference to BoJack's name. Okay, that might be a stretch.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think he. It seems to be a poll.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's B, O, O, Boo. And this guy's name is spelled B, U, J, O, K. Boojak was in the army but was discharged for mental health reasons. Brooks alleged that markings on some of the Zodiac envelopes spelled out Zodiac is a veteran with 4F. And Brooks speculated that the Zodiac symbol was inspired by the helicopter landing pad at Fort ord, California, where BoJack was stationed. Okay, a lot of these seem pretty far out there for me.

[Mike Gibson]

It seems like a stretch.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, a lot of stretches. Bouch was ruled out because his prints didn't match those believed to be the Zodiacs. Also, a park ranger at Lake Berryessa claimed Hartnell said the prison was in Colorado. BoJack was released from prison and just three days before the Lake Herman Road murders. Some researchers think he would have trouble traveling across three states in such a short time.

[Mike Gibson]

Seems to be pretty quick to go.

[Mike Ferguson]

Three states in three days. Yeah, well, not today. If you have a car, if you're trying to hitchhike, it might be tough. You just got out of prison. You don't own a car. Maybe you steal a car. I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm thinking you get out of prison on day one. You want to go, go find something else to do.

[Mike Ferguson]

Please do not elaborate on what you think that is. BoJack was also incarcerated during the Sherry Jo Bates murder and other suspected Zodiac cases. He died in 1993. And now we get to Arthur Leigh Allen, Right? Allen is the only suspect ever named by authorities, and in that Zodiac movie that we keep referencing, you know, Arthur Lee Allen is the main suspect in the movie, and I think the main suspect of Robert Graysmith. Allen enlisted in the Navy in the early 50s but was less than honorably discharged. According to the History Channel, in the early 60s, Allen lived in Atascadero, California, and taught at Santa Rosa Elementary School. His former students recalled him teaching them how to decipher codes. He also played songs such as Tom Dooley, which is about the murder of a woman, and I've got a little list from the Mikado, which has themes of death. Okay, I don't believe you should be playing songs about murder to elementary school children.

[Mike Gibson]

Not a good thing. I know you want to broaden horizons, but not like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Alan liked to bring animals to class, including a frog that he named forg.

[Mike Gibson]

Just switch the R and the O and get. Forgot a frog, I guess.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or, you know, switch one letter to E and you get my nickname, Ferg. People magazine noted that the Zodiac was known for purposely misspelling common words, and that's been a Big thing with me. And I talked about it as we went through the letters. To me, it did seem like the writer of the letters was a fairly intelligent person, maybe a very intelligent person who was trying to pass themselves off as unintelligent by misspelling words on purpose.

[Mike Gibson]

But then use some words that seem strange for somebody that would not be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Intelligent to use words that you had never even heard of.

[Mike Gibson]

I used more difficult words, so you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Don'T know those, but you know more difficult ones that mean the same thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. Yeah, I got you. According to Robert Graysmith's book, Zodiac, Allen was interviewed by a Vallejo detective on October 6, 1969. Allen was reported in the vicinity of the Lake Berryessa attack. He said he was scuba diving that day. According to Graysmith, a police officer pulled him over for speeding on the day of the attack and saw a bloody knife in his car. Allen said he used it to kill chickens. And I really like the guy who plays Arthur Leigh Allen in that movie.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he does a good job.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's really good in it. Allen also lived just a few minutes from Blue Rock Springs park, where Darlene Farron and Mike Mageau were shot in 1971. Allen's former friend Donald Chaney called the Manhattan beach police and reported that Allen had spoken of his desire to kill people. Cheney reported that he visited Allen's apartment in December 1968. They started off talking about hunting, and Allen brought up the short story the Most Dangerous Game. They discussed the idea of hunting humans. Allen then gave a hypothetical account of how he would commit murders at Lovers Lengths. He said he would use a revolver with a flashlight attached for better aim, and he would walk up and shoot people. He talked about shooting the tires of a school bus and picking off little.

[Mike Gibson]

Darling that's getting too close for comfort.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I think it's why, you know, to a lot of people, Arthur Leigh Allen became a very, very good suspect. I mean, just take what we just talked about, the most dangerous game, Lovers lanes, revolver with a flashlight, shooting the tires out of a school bus. These are all things that showed up in Zodiac letters. Allen also said he would send harassing notes to the police and call himself Zodiac. Cheney asked, per Crime Library, zodiac, why that? Why not something else? Allen said, I like the name Zodiac, and that's the name I'm going to use. Cheney moved to Southern California in January 1971. He he didn't think of Allen as a killer until that year when he heard about a series of unrelated murders in Grass Valley, California. And this kind of jogged his memory. A Vallejo detective noted in a report that Allen had touched Cheney's young daughter inappropriately on a camping trip years earlier. Cheney complained to Allen's brother about it. The detective wrote this might be a motive why Cheney would make such an accusation against Arthur Al.

[Morph]

Could be.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it's a. It's a very interesting notion that, you know, someone touches your daughter inappropriately, okay, you're going to have to pay for that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, this is how you're going to pay for it.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it's not going to be physical. I'm going to take everything I know about the Zodiac and I'm going to tell police that. You've said all these things.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes, I'm going to make the Zodiac you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Allen was interviewed again in 1971 and denied the incriminating conversation with his friend. He knew of media reports about the Zodiac, but seemed to have no knowledge of the crimes. He did acknowledge reading the story the Most Dangerous Game. Allen had an alibi for the Lake Berryassa attack. He claimed he spoke with his neighbor when he came home that afternoon. Without any prompting, Allen brought up two knives he had in his car. He said the blood on them came from a chicken. Detectives commented on Allen's Zodiac Seawolf wristwatch with the cross circle design. He said it was a gift he received in 1969. However, his brother later said their mother gave it to Allen for Christmas 1967.

[Mike Gibson]

Similar to your watch.

[Mike Ferguson]

I did buy a Seawolf after we did the first season of Zodiac because I wanted a Zodiac watch. The San Francisco police searched Allen's home in 1972. No definitive evidence was discovered, but officers did find hunting knives and a freezer full of dead hamsters, squirrels and birds.

[Mike Gibson]

Strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, who doesn't have a freezer full of, you know, hamsters, squirrels, birds, porcupines, raccoons, just whatever. No, you're right. It's very weird. But if you watch the interviews with Arthur Liao, and there are quite a few out there, because he talked to the press a number of times, he did a lot of interviews, wasn't shy. He seemed like kind of a strange dude, which I'm sure didn't do much to quell people's suspicion of him. Right? The fact that he did seem like a strange guy. Authorities learned that Allen owned the same caliber gun used in one of the shootings. He was also ambidextrous, which could have helped him disguise his true handwriting style. However, the police had samples of Allen's right and left Handwriting, and neither one matched the Zodiac letter. It was determined that his fingerprints didn't match those at the stein murder scene. Two years later, in 1974, Allen was arrested for child molestation and sentenced to almost four years at Atascadero State Hospital. On May 13, 1977, Allen was given a suspended prison sentence and five years probation, which he completed in 1982. Allen was under investigation again in 1991, after an informant in an armed robbery case claimed Allen bragged about killing a cab driver. The Vallejo police executed another warrant. At his residence. They found pipe bombs and illegal weapons, but nothing to prove he was the.

[Mike Gibson]

Zodiac, but definitely had some things going on.

[Mike Ferguson]

He had a bunch of stuff going on. You know, obviously he wasn't a good guy. He was a child molester. But if you're an informant and you already know that the police are looking at him as the Zodiac and you're looking maybe to get a little leniency or some special treatment. Well, maybe you say that, you know, I heard Arthur Lee Allen talking about killing a cab driver in San Francisco or something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

That would do it.

[Mike Ferguson]

In August 1991, victim Michael Mageau identified Allen from a photo lineup.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's a significant amount of time. Not saying that you would forget what somebody looked like, but it was 20 plus years.

[Mike Ferguson]

Arthur Allen died of a heart attack in August 1992. He was 58 years old. Two days later, another search warrant was executed. His home and property was seized. Author and investigative reporter Robert Graysmith named Allen as the most likely suspect in two books about the case, Zodiac and Zodiac Unmasked. In 2002, DNA collected from a Zodiac letter stamp was compared to Allen's, but it wasn't a match. However, the DNA sample was so small and the results were somewhat inconclusive, according to biography.com but it was said that Allen often had other people lick stamps for him, which is strange.

[Mike Gibson]

Anyway. Hey, can you lick my stamp? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You better be careful who you're asking that of because you're gonna get smacked right in your face.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Thinking that you're talking about something else, maybe, but it is, it's weird, right? Lick your own stamps. Because police in the 60s and 70s were unaware of DNA technology. Some evidence was mishandled. The evidence is also spread out because multiple departments were, were involved. And, and that's true of so many different cases. You know, back then, there's no way they could have known that DNA was going to be this unbelievable crime fighting tool. Undoubtedly, evidence was mishandled in, in Many cases, protocol wasn't as tight, wasn't as strict.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

As it is today. But, you know, one of the things we haven't really talked about much is that these Zodiac attacks, the known, some of the suspected, they did occur in multiple jurisdictions. And I think it's one thing that the movie does a pretty good job of, is kind of show you how these departments weren't really in sync with each other. They weren't talking to each other. One didn't know what the other knew, and vice versa, which I think makes.

[Mike Gibson]

It harder to obviously find this killer that's working in multiple counties.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it hampered the investigation, there's no doubt about it. In October 2024, Netflix released the three part this is the Zodiac Speaking, which focuses on Allen as a suspect. Producers interviewed the Seawater family, who considered Allen a father figure. Allen befriended their mother, Phyllis Seawater, after some of the kids began attending Santa rosa Elementary in 1961, where Allen was once a teacher. Phyllis had seven children. Her oldest children, David, Connie, and Don, attended Santa Rosa. Phyllis was a single mother. The children's father was institutionalized at Atascadero State. Connie Seawater thought Arthur Allen was great, big, burly, smiley, friendly. He often ate dinner with them and took the kids on outings. For example, in June 1963, Allen took David, Connie, and Don to the beach outside Santa Barbara. He told them to stay in the car, but when he returned, she said he was covered in blood.

[Mike Gibson]

Creepy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, even more creepy when they later learned this was the same day Robert Domingos and Linda Edwards were murdered. Allen took Connie and David to Riverside on October 29th and 30th, 1966. They said they experienced gaps in their memory and later concluded that Allen drugged them. This trip coincided with the murder of Sherry Jo Bates. David Seawater spoke to Arthur Allen shortly before he died in 1992. Allen admitted to drugging him and Connie in Riverside and molesting his younger sister. He also said that Allen allegedly confessed to being the Zodiac killer. David told his family about Allen's confession, but they didn't believe him. They were estranged for years until his family saw the 2007 movie Zodiac. Connie recalled, the three of us started piecing together these jigsaw puzzle pieces of our childhood, and a hundred things finally fell into place. We started researching things and realized that we had been to all the murder sites before the murders. The siblings said the police didn't show much interest in their story, so they agreed to participate in the documentary to help give closure to everyone involved.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, like you said he's the number one suspect.

[Mike Ferguson]

For many people. Yeah, for many people.

[Mike Gibson]

And the only one the police have ever came out and mentioned.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

Now, did you see that documentary?

[Mike Ferguson]

I did see the documentary. Didn't watch the documentary.

[Mike Gibson]

It was good, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Both of them were good. Yeah. But here we are, so many decades later. Gibbs and investigators are still working to solve this. Both the Zodiac murders and the ciphers, they haven't solved all those.

[Mike Gibson]

I've solved many of them, yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why? Why you've not published your findings is still a mystery.

[Mike Gibson]

Because I don't think it's fair that.

[Mike Ferguson]

You'Re the only person who's smart enough to have solved them.

[Morph]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I want to see if a few others can come along and then we can compare.

[Mike Ferguson]

I got you. Yeah. Makes sense. In 2018, the Vallejo Police Department announced plans to submit evidence for DNA testing to create a profile for genealogy databases which have been used to solve other high profile cases. No results have been announced so far.

[Mike Gibson]

It's been a while.

[Mike Ferguson]

It has been, you know, the Vallejo police submitted two envelopes that contain letters from the Zodiac. And Detective Terry Poyser told the Sacramento beat, if we get a good profile, then you start tracking back. It really comes down to DNA. Without it, you have nothing. It's a 50 years old case. And I think that's very well said. You know, they have some things that, you know, could potentially result in a DNA profile. We talked about one that was said to be like very super weak. But here we are now in 2025. The technology is better.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe they can do more with less. Maybe they can pull a better profile. But the genetic genealogy route is probably how they would solve this case if it ever gets solved. You know, it's how they solve the Golden State Killer case and so many others. If you have DNA, it's possible that you can match it to not the killer, but somebody within the killer's family and then work your way back.

[Mike Gibson]

Track it back to who? That person?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Poyser said he believes the Zodiac Killer is no longer alive and that Arthur Allen remains the best suspect. There are probably 30 different circumstantial things that point to him. He was extremely intelligent, but a deviant dude. Poyser noted that the DNA profile from 2002 only had a few markers on it, which is less than half the genetic points needed to identify a suspect. The DNA sample was hampered because there was no technology to separate the glue used on stamps and, and envelopes from genetic material. But technology has since advanced so, again, can they get a better sample? But also, we talked about it, right? If this guy Allen, as it has been reported, was known to have asked other people to lick stamps and envelopes for him, well, you're going to get somebody else's DNA.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Even if he was the killer. But Poison did say if they could get a clean DNA sample, the police could ask people who lick stamps for Allen to submit their DNA. And if any of that matched, that would be a further link to him as being the Zodiac killer.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true. I mean, if they could figure out the liquor, then the liquor could tell them.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you got to get the liquor first.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you don't have the liquor, you've got nothing.

[Mike Gibson]

It's over. But if you get the liquor and the liquor says, I did used to lick stamps for this guy, and his name was Slim Shady.

[Mike Ferguson]

Poiser told the paper that if Allen is not the Zodiac, it was most likely someone familiar with the Vallejo area, possibly someone with a law enforcement or military background. The first four victims were shot in rural areas, most likely only known to locals. And I think, you know, that's true in many cases. You know, we say that a lot, Detectives think, well, the killer has to be someone familiar with the area.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

How are they going to know where these lovers lanes are?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I know back in the day before you were married, you had a list of all the Lover lanes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Once again, they're called Lovers Lanes, not Lover Lanes.

[Mike Gibson]

You know who used to love Lover Lane?

[Mike Ferguson]

Who?

[Mike Gibson]

Clubber Lang.

[Mike Ferguson]

Clubber Lang. Loved Lover slains. Okay, of the million different things that you could have said, that was not one that I would have predicted, just.

[Mike Gibson]

What popped in my head. Well, he did have that smooth van.

[Mike Ferguson]

Wait, as he. When he was in the A Team. Yeah, he did. All right, so now I think it's a perfect time to bring in Morph, kind of get his take as we wrap up talking about suspects.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I can't wait to hear what he has to say.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, Gibby, it's time we called up Morph on the old Skype. And now he's on the podcast, the.

[Mike Gibson]

Man, the myth, the legend.

[Mike Ferguson]

Legend. All right, Morph, how you doing, buddy?

[Morph]

I'm doing good. How you guys doing?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, we're doing good. Appreciate you coming on. It only seemed right to have you on when we were, you know, talking Zodiac. It seems so long ago that you and I did that first season of Criminology. Because it was so long ago.

[Morph]

Yeah. How many years was that? 2016, I think it was.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's seven years. I would say at least seven, eight years. I don't know. It's been a long time. And some things have changed in the Zodiac case since we did that, but it was a very in depth and coverage, and I tell everybody that they should go check it out for sure. But, you know, as we're kind of wrapping up our coverage of the Zodiac, thought it only fitting to have you on. You know, it's one of the things that kind of led to. To you and I working together.

[Morph]

Yeah, I remember when I reached out the very first time to you, just saying, I like the show and what you guys did. And we started talking a little bit of Zodiac stuff, and you told me you were really into the Zodiac and sort of took off from there.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then it was like, hey, let's do a podcast. And, you know, it just. It went from there. But, you know, when you talk about the Zodiac, I guess what has fascinated you about the Zodiac for so many years because you were solely. I don't want to say solely, but pretty much focused on the Zodiac in your pre podcast, True Crime Life.

[Morph]

Yeah, it's a case that can really suck you in and take over, and you're obsessing over it, and you do it in your spare time and you're researching stuff, reading stuff, going through reports, looking at suspects. And it's like the movie Zodiac with, you know, Robert Graysmith, the way he got sucked into it, sort of how it is. But there's a lot of stuff to go through for sure. No, no doubt.

[Mike Ferguson]

So in this episode, we're talking a lot about suspects, and I know that, you know, every potential suspect, quasi suspect that, that there is. That has to do with the. The Zodiac. Kind of let the listeners know because I think it's changed over the years. Your thoughts on, like, who the best suspect is?

[Morph]

Well, you know, I think when we recorded our Zodiac coverage on criminology, it was my favorite suspect was Ross Sullivan because he looked a lot like the sketchy was in the Riverside Library, which is a piece of the Zodiac mystery that, you know, he tied to. But. But the issue in the year since we've. We did that is, you know, I pretty much ruled him out because he could never be placed in river or not, excuse me, in Vallejo and, you know, or San Francisco for that matter. And we had some schizophrenia issues that would keep him hospitalized at times. You know, there were some reports that he drove, but no firm evidence that he did. So it's Hard to place him in any of the spots where Zodiac was active. And for that and a few other reasons, I pretty much ruled him out. But since we recorded our coverage, there's been umpteen books mentioning different suspects. There's been Netflix documentaries focusing on different suspects. So you can really, you know, look at the suspect pool and. And look at a lot of people. And, you know, the one that I've come to, which is one that I sort of found, I didn't, you know, read a book or anything and find this person. It's somebody that I developed was a. A guy named William Mac Andrew who lived right in Vallejo. And he's my favorite suspect.

[Mike Ferguson]

And so that is one person we did not talk about. I don't think he's, you know, a real top of mind or, you know, a guy who's really on a lot of people's radar. So kind of tell us why, you know, you've began to think that he's a good possibility.

[Morph]

Well, I spent a lot of time looking at suspects that had been in Riverside, thinking that the Zodiac had to have been in Riverside and that that had to be. You know, I had to find somebody with a background in Riverside. And, you know, I talked to a detective. He said, you know, you don't know that that's a Zodiac case. Why don't you stick to confirmed Zodiac attacks and stuff and focus on confirmed Zodiac activity? And I sort of took his advice and I said, well, let me just look at people in Vallejo. And I started, you know, I. The thing that really got me interested in him is after the Blue Rock Springs attack, when Zodiac shot Darlene Farron and Mike mageau, you know, 35, 40 minutes goes by, a good amount of time goes by before he makes that phone call where he, you know, that infamous phone call. And he made that phone call from the intersection of Springs and Tuolumne. And that was a drive that should have taken him, you know, 10 minutes or so because it's only a couple miles from the park where he shot them at. But it, you know, he waited a good 35, 40 minutes. So I started thinking, well, what if, you know, why would he do that if he. If he was driving out of town and wanted to make that call as he was heading out? That call should have came, like, 10 minutes after the attack, but it came, like 40 minutes after the attack. So I said, what if he lived around that phone booth and he went home, stashed his guns, parked his car, changed his clothes, whatever, just to disassociate himself from the crime and distance himself from any evidence that tied him to it. And then maybe he walked right over to that phone booth to make that call to police. And I started looking at people. I used an old Polk's directory that listed the residents of every house in the area. And I sort of just made a list of everybody that lived within walking distance, within a couple hundred yards of that phone booth. And most of the places there were businesses, so nobody really lived there. But one of the places that somebody did live was, you know, on 1223. And that was this guy, William Mac Andrew. He lived there with his parents, had a real estate business there. And when I did some background searching on him, I found out he was 5 foot 8, you know, 200 some odd pounds, large, round face, wore glasses, was. Was a experienced shooter, was in the codes and ciphers. And, you know, I finally got my hands on his writing just to see, you know, I thought, well, maybe that's going to rule him out. And it didn't. His handwriting looks remarkably like Zodiac's, you know, that. That same slant that Zodiac used. So right, right away I was like, okay, there's too many things that are just lining up here that are interesting. And then, you know, look at some of the things in his life. You know, they. They line up perfectly with Zodiac's stops and starts in writing, letters, you know, Zodiac didn't write for from 1971 to 1974. Well, in 1971, he took a state job with the prison system, and 1974, he got engaged. And those coincide with the stops and starts in Zodiac's letter writing for that three year period. We sort of saw that when we did Golden State Killer. You know, he's DeAngelo's pause in between killings was, you know, when he last killed someone was 1981. Then he didn't do it again until 1986, coincided with the births of his two daughters. So it was interesting there was that. That kind of the stressors in his life that, you know, oftentimes police look for to see if there's any kind of new jobs, new marriages, babies being born, things that set off these kind of people to do that kind of stuff. And it just so happens that he sort of lined up perfectly with that. So the more I looked at him, the more things fell into place, the more I was convinced that, you know, I had the right guy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, that's fascinating. I mean, that, you know, what it reminded me of as you were talking, because you were so. You're animated and you can tell that you've like, you've lived this stuff. Morph. It reminded me of Grace, Miss character in the movie.

[Morph]

Yeah, I mean, it's easy to get excited and when you feel like you've got the right person, you sort of, you could, you can get tunnel vision. But, you know, I objectively the stuff and I've shared it with other people. It's on, you know, forums on zodiackiller.com and stuff. I've shared everything I found. I've had some help finding some stuff and digging some stuff up. You know, you come. And again, where he lived was 280ft from that phone booth. You could see the phone booth from his front window. So I thought, I thought he walked to that phone booth, called the police, and then walked back to his house so he could watch the police responding to that phone booth. That's in my mind what I think he did.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's something Zodiac would want to do.

[Morph]

Yeah, I just, I, I could see him there just getting his jollies, watching the cops mess around at this phone booth. And another thing, Zodiac, in his letter, when he talks about that call at the phone booth, he said, the person that saw me at the phone booth making that call and saw my car was brown was a black guy. He's trying to sell the police on his car being brown. And somebody saw him at that phone booth. He's trying to oversell it, in my opinion. I think there was no car. So he's got the police trying to look for some kind of brown car that doesn't exist. Meanwhile, I think he's, you know, 200 odd feet away looking out of this window.

[Mike Ferguson]

How amazing would it be if at some time in the future some connection is made to this guy and you can point back to, oh, just go listen to this episode and you'll hear me say it.

[Morph]

Yeah, I mean, it would be great. I just want to see the case solved. Whether, you know, I'm right or I'm wrong, I just want to find out, you know, the truth. And that's why I hope there is DNA that can maybe come into play someday and, and use genealogy to prove who it was, whether it's him or somebody else. You know, I just want the case to be sold.

[Mike Ferguson]

You and so many others. Well, listen, more appreciate you coming on so much, man. It means a lot. A lot of people who listen to true crime all the time unsolved, and also listen to criminology asked me, are you going to have morph on or they said, well, you can't do a Zodiac episode and not invite Morph. And I was like, well, you're right. We have to. So we appreciate it very much.

[Morph]

I'm always happy, and it's good to talk to Gibby, even though he can't hear me.

[Mike Gibson]

Appreciate that knowledge, buddy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. There's something going on with our system. So Gibby can't hear you, but he can talk. In 2023amateur code breakers solved the Zodiac's 340 character cipher, which was sent to the San Francisco Chronicle on November 8, 1969. And that's amazing that it took that long. 50 years.

[Mike Gibson]

It really was a long time.

[Mike Ferguson]

The cipher said, I hope you're having lots of fun and trying to catch me. That wasn't me on the TV show. Which brings up a point about me.

[Mike Gibson]

Me.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not afraid of the gas chamber because it will send me to paradise all the sooner because I now have enough slaves to work for me where everyone else has nothing when they reach paradise. So they are afraid of death. I'm not afraid because I know that my new life will be an easy one in paradise. Death. The TV show referenced in the cipher was the Jim Dunbar talk Show. The cipher was sent two weeks after a person claiming to be the Zodiac called in. And I think there's a thought by many that the Zodiac was prompted to send that letter because he was upset that someone was claiming responsibility for his work.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. Don't you claim what I have done.

[Mike Ferguson]

The cipher was decoded by David Aranchak, Jarl Van Eyck, and Sam Blake. Aranchak had been working to solve the Zodiac cipher since 2006. The trio took their findings to the FBI. He explained to CNN how he used decryption software to sift through 650,000 variations of the message.

[Mike Gibson]

It's amazing.

[Mike Ferguson]

And Morph and I actually had David on our criminology podcast for season one, the Zodiac season. He's an amazing guy. Very smart. The FBI issued a statement that they were aware the cipher was solved, but they would not be providing further comment due to the ongoing investigation and out of respect for the victims and their families. In October 2021, an independent group of cold case investigators called the Casebreakers claimed they identified the Zodiac. They believed Gary Francis Post, who died in 2018, was the killer. Their claims were based on DNA evidence found at the scene of Sherry Jo Bates murder. According to biography.com, post had the same shoe size and a similar forehead scar as the Zodiac. Letters to the press contained Anagrams of his name. CNN reported that the Riverside PD could not comment on the suspect, but they did say the Zodiac did not kill Sherry Jo Bates.

[Morph]

Okay.

[Mike Gibson]

Confident about that, I think.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, so what are they saying?

[Mike Gibson]

That's not Post.

[Mike Ferguson]

They don't believe Post is the Zodiac, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have killed Sherry Jo Bates.

[Morph]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

The SFPD confirmed that it is still an open investigation, and they could not speak on suspects. Although the Zodiac claimed to have killed 37 people, there are no confirmed Zodiac cases after 1969. You know, it is possible, Gibbs, that at some point, the Zodiac just chose to stop killing.

[Mike Gibson]

Possible?

[Mike Ferguson]

Possible. I kind of think with most serial killers, that's not normally the case, but it is possible. I usually don't tend to err on the side that there's something that stops them. Right. Whether it's because they're incarcerated on, you know, some other charge or conviction. They die, they move. And maybe they're killing in another area and those murders aren't connected. The FBI's National center for the Analysis of Violent Crime notes that serial killers may stop their crimes if something changes in their lives. It perhaps almost getting caught made the Zodiac stop, or he chose to stop due to old age. Decades later, the identity of the Zodiac remains unknown, and numerous cases are still unsolved. But as we keep talking about, in many unsolved cases, and you have advancements in DNA, you have these advancements in genetic genealogy, I think there's probably more hope now than ever that investigators may one day find out who the Zodiac killer is. Now, there's a very good chance that when they do, this person's not going to be alive. If you think about the fact that it's been 50 some years. Right. In a few years, it'll be 60 years.

[Morph]

It will. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

It's crazy.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's hard to believe. So if you think about a guy being 25 to 35, or 25 to 45, whatever the estimate was. Okay. Chances are that person's probably not going to be alive. No.

[Mike Gibson]

Or if they are, they may not.

[Mike Ferguson]

Be for much longer. Yeah. Is that. Is that what you really see? So what are you going to do to them?

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

But to me, the punishment part is probably out the window, whether that person is alive or not. Even if they are alive, if you put them in prison, maybe they're. They'll die within a little bit. It's more about solving this mystery that has consumed so many people for so many years.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And I think with this particular one, if you could solve it, you've proven the Zodiac wrong. Right. He thought he could go undiscovered.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And amazingly has for so long. But the other thing is then trying to figure out which of these cases are actually attributed to to the Zodiac, because there are some that are known, there are some that are suspected. So you have that work as well. And I think once you can identify who the real Zodiac is, maybe it makes that part a little easier trying to figure out the cases that are really connected to him. But that's it for our three parter on the Zodiac Killer. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

[Mike Gibson]

Want to hear those?

[Voicemail Callers]

Hi, this is Kaisha out of Utah. I was listening to your part one on the Zodiac today, and I believe I solved the random letters at the end of the Z408 letter. Oh, sorry, all excited. I wanted to try and report it to the FBI, but I couldn't get through. So each of those letters, if you use each one individually, it spells the sentence the epitome of the behemoth. I couldn't find anything on the Internet of someone else solving it or finding out what it meant, so I thought I would share it here because this is what inspired me to look. So keep your own time ticking. Thanks, bye.

[Mike Gibson]

That's awesome.

[Mike Ferguson]

That'd be amazing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If she shared it here first.

[Morph]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

I have to wait and see.

[Mike Gibson]

We have to share that with Morph.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know what that means.

[Mike Gibson]

That little phrase.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, what was the phrase?

[Mike Gibson]

I forget.

[Mike Ferguson]

The epitome of the behemoth. Yeah. First of all, I know you don't know two of those words, so I knew it was going to be hard for you to.

[Mike Gibson]

The is a tough word to understand.

[Mike Ferguson]

Recite that back. But that, I mean, that would be really cool if for some reason she solved it and they verify.

[Voicemail Callers]

Hi, my name is Luna Michael and I'm calling from upstate New York, which by the way is anything from Albany and above, in case you're wondering. A lot of people have an argument about that. I have been listening to your podcast for about a month or so. The reason why I wanted to leave a voicemail is because while ago I one of you guys said that it would be weird if people use your podcast to fall asleep. I actually listening to podcasts during the day, but also to fall asleep. Your guys's voices help me go to sleep easier. But yeah, I love your guys episode. You guys are actually one of my favorite podcasts and I have a lot of pure crime podcasts but, yeah, keep doing what you guys are doing and keep your own time ticking. Bye.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right. Love that voicemail. I mean, it makes us feel great. Gibbs, if it was up to me, everybody would put the podcast on and just let it play nonstop.

[Mike Gibson]

Sorry, I was falling asleep.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, sorry. Because of my voice. Yeah, that would just increase our download numbers and help us out. You don't even. You can just turn the volume all the way down. Just let it play all night.

[Mike Gibson]

24 7. Really?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, 24. Seven would be great.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Put it on recycle, and just let it keep going around.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did you say recycle?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that. That means reloop.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or reloop.

[Morph]

That little.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, I think reloop is an oxymoron because if you're looping, you're already coming back around. So if you're. If you're relooping, just do a loop. Loop. Oh, I don't know, but you crack me up. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime. All the time unsolved. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[Voicemail Callers]

SA.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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