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- [00:00]
A
You know folks, when Gibby and I first started this podcast, we had no idea what we were doing. We had so many worries. Would anybody listen? Would we just make fools of ourselves? But now we know we were right to go ahead and try it because look, we're 10 years later. But it also helps to have a partner on your side like Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark to true crime all the time to brands just getting started. You can get started with your own design studio. They have ready to use templates that help build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Shopify helps you get the word out. Like you have a whole marketing team behind you. You can easily create email and social media campaigns. And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com tcat go to shopify.com tcat that's shopify.com TCATT
- [01:14]
B
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law.
- [01:45]
A
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 499 of the True crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Give me. How are you?
- [01:55]
C
I'm doing good. Doing good man. How about you?
- [01:57]
A
I'm doing great.
- [01:58]
C
Yeah.
- [01:58]
A
So 499.
- [02:00]
C
Yeah.
- [02:00]
A
Which means Sunday's episode is 500.
- [02:03]
C
It is.
- [02:04]
A
It's a big milestone for us. I mean we have been doing this almost 10 years.
- [02:10]
C
Yeah.
- [02:10]
A
Which is hard to believe, but it also means it's time for a really big case because on the big milestone numbers we always do a really big case do and I won't spoil it by giving it away, but it's going to be a multi parter and we're going to do them all on on video and audio, so I'm excited.
- [02:30]
C
Plus, my contract, it says on episode 500, I get a steak dinner that night.
- [02:37]
A
So I think you've had enough dinners. Free dinners.
- [02:42]
C
Is that a bad subject?
- [02:44]
A
10 years of free dinners or subject at this point, now it's all right. All right, buddy. You ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?
- [02:53]
C
Yeah, I'm ready.
- [02:54]
A
We're talking about Samantha Josephson. In March 2019, college senior Samantha Josephson was kidnapped and murdered during a night out with friends when she got into a car that she mistakenly thought was an Uber. So, I mean, that's scary, first of all.
- [03:11]
C
Yeah.
- [03:12]
A
But her case led to the passage of both state and federal laws enhancing rideshare safety because, you know, let's face it, and you and I have talked about it many a time, there's something that comes out. Let's say it's new technology, a new service. Everybody loves it. Yeah, right.
- [03:33]
C
They do.
- [03:34]
A
What you don't think about is kind of, what's the dark side? Or what could be the dark side of things? You know? Think about the Internet. Yeah. I mean, who wasn't fascinated with the Internet? But there's a lot of danger that comes with the Internet. What happens is we figure out, okay, what the danger is, and then we put something in place to try to prevent it from happening again. Samantha Josephson was born in Princeton, New Jersey, to parents Seymour and Marcy Josephson. She lived in Robbinsville, New Jersey.
- [04:07]
C
I wonder, if you're born in Princeton, are you automatically just a little bit smarter?
- [04:12]
A
I would say no.
- [04:13]
C
No,
- [04:15]
A
I'm going to say no. That's like, you know, if you're. You're born in Boston, near Harvard, are you automatically a little bit smarter?
- [04:25]
C
I like these apples. I think so.
- [04:27]
A
Maybe. Maybe. Marcy Josephson said at a court hearing that the family called Samantha Sweet Pea. She was bubbly, kind, and. And full of life. And Sweet Pea is kind of a cool nickname. I think not. Not for me.
- [04:43]
C
But I was just checking.
- [04:44]
A
Yeah. I don't want to be called Sweet Pea.
- [04:46]
C
We can call you sweetie.
- [04:47]
A
No, I don't want.
- [04:48]
C
We can probably get that going.
- [04:49]
A
I don't want to start that. But at the time of her death, Samantha was a senior political science major at the University of South Carolina in. Come, Come. Columbia, South Carolina.
- [05:02]
C
I think it's Columbia.
- [05:03]
A
Yeah.
- [05:03]
C
Yeah. Nice little town.
- [05:05]
A
Yeah. You know, University of South Carolina, they're in the sec. They have one of the. To me, what is one of the strangest nicknames? The Gamecocks.
- [05:16]
C
Gamecocks. Yeah.
- [05:16]
A
Seems like a kind of a strange one, but.
- [05:18]
C
Fancy bird. Yeah.
- [05:20]
A
I don't really know what kind of bird it is. I, I do know that there are people in the student section at like football and basketball games that have hats that say no one can lick our. That's. I do know that and I always got a chuckle out of that.
- [05:36]
C
You always.
- [05:37]
A
Maybe a little sophomore, but I did.
- [05:39]
C
Did you wonder when they like the marketing team, Hey, I know what the logo is going to be. Is there somebody in that room snickering? Yeah, maybe we shouldn't guys.
- [05:48]
A
And somebody came up with that, you know that statement.
- [05:51]
C
Yeah.
- [05:52]
A
Samantha's father, Seymour Josephson said that she enjoyed her time at the university. She absolutely loved it there. She was a game cop.
- [06:00]
C
Yes.
- [06:00]
A
And I think people, you know, they, they really, a lot of people do. They get just so entrenched in their university that, you know, you go to the football games or the basketball games or whatever it is, I mean that becomes a part of you.
- [06:18]
C
I mean it is a big part of your life.
- [06:20]
A
Yeah.
- [06:20]
C
So I mean, I think, you know, I mean around here, if you go to Ohio State, I mean these people, they're Buckeyes, you're a Buckeye and even if you don't go there because you live in and around that area, you're a Buckeye and you're where the, the scarlet and gray colors and you're fly the flags.
- [06:38]
A
I wonder if it has to do you know, whether it's a bigger school or a school that's known for a certain sport, if that plays more of a, a role into it because we have small, smaller schools here around us and nobody really talks about like, oh, they're a big fan of that place or right, that place was awesome. Or so maybe that has something to do with it.
- [07:02]
C
It probably does. Think about, you know, I mean I can't see over here, but I can.
- [07:05]
A
I don't know why. It's great. It's, it's good pod, but I don't
- [07:09]
C
know what you're doing, you know. I mean.
- [07:11]
A
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [07:11]
C
I mean you're huge.
- [07:12]
A
I didn't even go to Kentucky and I'm a huge Kentucky Wildcat.
- [07:15]
C
Yeah.
- [07:16]
A
Fan. At the time of her death, Samantha had been working at the Liberty Tap Room, a brewery and grill for several months. She was in a long term relationship with Greg Corbishley, who said Samantha was the love of his life. Samantha was murdered in the final weeks of her last semester of college. She was preparing for an exciting new Chapter after graduation. And obviously it's tragic anytime a young person loses their life, and obviously we're going to talk about that more. But then you think about a couple of things. First of all, you know, what was that person going to go on to do? Well, you're not going to know because their life was taken away from them. But you think about being just a few weeks away from graduation, right at the finish line, and what, what that is like in your mind, whether it's high school, college, whatever, that's like one of the best times, you know, like, you can see the finish line and you're just kind of coasting in because most of the stuff is already done. You might be finishing up some exams and things like that, But I don't know, it adds like an extra tragic layer to it.
- [08:33]
C
I agree with you.
- [08:34]
A
Yeah. Samantha wanted to be an attorney and had already been accepted into two law schools. She wanted to practice human rights law or international law.
- [08:44]
C
You know, that's. That's, that's awesome. I love international law.
- [08:49]
A
Yeah. I know you've dabbled in it from time to time. I don't know how you have time with your medicine practice and all the other things you have going on, but
- [09:01]
C
all the side gigs Rex west has.
- [09:02]
A
I know, but there's no doubt that. I mean, she was. She was an intelligent person. She had recently told her parents that she was offered a partial scholarship to Rutgers Law School in New Jersey and Drexel University School of Law in Philadelphia.
- [09:19]
C
That's impressive.
- [09:19]
A
Yeah, it is. Her parents plan to come to Columbia to Surprise Samantha on March 31, 2019. On the night of March 28, which was a Thursday, Samantha went out with her roommates in the Five Points area of Columbia, which is a nightlife hub in the city. They were out into the early morning hours of March 29, 2019.
- [09:46]
C
Well, I'm sure it was hopping and whatever the cool words are today, but
- [09:50]
A
I'm sure it was like hopping probably wasn't it. But I get what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, you think about any big college, the nightlife scene is usually pretty healthy. Healthy, That's a great word for it.
- [10:03]
C
Yeah.
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A
And the fact that they're out into the early morning hours of the next day doesn't surprise me at all because I remember being in college and that's just kind of how things went.
- [10:14]
C
Plus, you know, it's coming to an end. Right. The school year.
- [10:17]
A
Yeah.
- [10:18]
C
So people are unwinding, and you're probably
- [10:20]
A
celebrating even just a little bit more.
- [10:22]
C
Yeah.
- [10:23]
A
She was with her friends between 1:30 and 2am at a bar called the Bird Dog. Samantha somehow got separated from her friends, so she decided to call an Uber. Around 2am she was captured on surveillance standing outside a bar. At one point she approached a car, but it was not her Uber. Then a newer model black Chevy Impala pulled up to the curb. Samantha mistakenly thought it was her Uber and got into the back of the vehicle at 2:09am the car drove off with her inside. And you know, let's talk about Uber for a little bit. And there are other companies as well, right. Lyft and some other ones that have been around here and there. But, you know, you think about Uber or before the days of Uber.
- [11:17]
C
Yeah.
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A
Know when we were younger and if you needed to ride somewhere, you better have a friend or a parent or somebody because there was no stranger who, for money was going to come pick you up. Now maybe there was, but it wasn't.
- [11:33]
C
Yeah.
- [11:34]
A
Regulated or legitimate or, you know, like
- [11:38]
C
you said, you had to know somebody and could find a pay phone to call them to come get you because that's, that's how it had to be.
- [11:45]
A
Yeah. And unfortunately, I think probably what that did was, did lead to a lot more people driving drunk.
- [11:56]
C
Did.
- [11:56]
A
When they shouldn't obviously have been driving. I think Uber maybe went a long way with that because people stopped just driving to bars altogether. They would get an Uber to go to the bar, knowing they could drink, do whatever they wanted, then they would just call an Uber or some car service to take them home later.
- [12:19]
C
I mean, look, there was a period of time and, you know, right before the podcast started that you dabbled because you just wanted to experience it, which is another story. But you wanted to experience it. So you Ubered. I did a little bit. And boy, did you have some great stories.
- [12:36]
A
It was fun.
- [12:37]
C
Yeah. We loved hearing you come into the office, you know, the next day.
- [12:41]
A
Yeah.
- [12:41]
C
And tell us about you Ubering the night before.
- [12:43]
A
I ubered for a whole summer, mainly because I was bored.
- [12:48]
C
Y.
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A
And I was looking for kind of something else to do. But then what happened was I, I took all the money that I made from Uber and that's how I bought the podcast equipment.
- [12:58]
C
You did? Yeah.
- [12:58]
A
And that's what led to the, the podcast. So. But it, it, it was fun. I'm not going to say it was fun, everybody, single time, but it was interesting.
- [13:09]
C
Yeah.
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A
There's no doubt about that.
- [13:10]
C
And I know you picked up your fair share of people that were drunk.
- [13:16]
A
Oh, a lot. Yeah. A Lot of people were drunk.
- [13:18]
C
Yeah, for sure.
- [13:19]
A
So Samantha gets into this car, it drives off. Hours later, Samantha's roommates became concerned when they couldn't get in contact with her. Samantha's boyfriend, Greg Corbishley, was also worried. He was over two hours away in Charleston, South Carolina, where he had moved after graduation. Now, he had been on the phone with Samantha throughout the night and later said he was tracking her phone to make sure she got home safely. He said he knew something was wrong. Moments after she got into the car, he tried calling her, but she didn't answer. He went to sleep thinking she left her phone in an Uber. When he woke up, he learned she was missing and he drove to Columbia.
- [14:04]
C
Right there. What a nightmare.
- [14:05]
A
Yeah, it would be. Yeah. You're a little worried. Eventually you got to go to sleep. Right. You can't get in contact with the person. You're obviously probably not thinking that the worst has happened, because most people don't think that. But what a shock to wake up the next morning and find out that. That she's missing. At 1:30pm on March 29, Samantha's roommates reported her missing after failing to get in contact with her. At 3:45pm officers from the Clarendon County Sheriff's Office, 65 miles southwest of Columbia, received a report that two turkey hunters found a woman's body in the woods off a dirt road near the town of New Zion. And it doesn't surprise me, Gibbs, that hunters would find a body. I mean, how many cases have we done where victims, bodies have been found by hunters? It's a lot. It's a high percentage.
- [15:05]
C
It really is a high percentage.
- [15:07]
A
And I think there's a reason for that. You know, if you think about where some killers decide to dispose of bodies, but usually in a place that they don't think anybody's going to be visiting anytime soon. Well, where do hunters usually go? Places where not a lot of other people go.
- [15:29]
C
Yeah, they want to go to those less populated or non populated areas so they can find the.
- [15:37]
A
Whatever they're looking for. Hunting.
- [15:39]
C
Yeah.
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A
I mean, I don't go hunting, but I'm assuming that's a good strategy.
- [15:44]
C
Yeah.
- [15:44]
A
The body was found in a heavily wooded area with farmland nearby. Few people lived in this area. Investigators said someone would have to know how to get to the spot where the body was found, indicating that the killer was familiar with the area.
- [16:01]
C
Local.
- [16:01]
A
Local. We hear that quite a bit. Right. If it's off the beaten path, something that, you know, someone not from the area would even have an idea about. A lot of times it does give the police that indication that this has got to be someone from around here or else they would have had no way to know about this place. The body wasn't immediately identified, but by the early morning hours of March 30, the victim was identified as Samantha Josephson. Samantha had wounds to the head, neck, face, upper body, leg and foot. A coroner's report listed her cause of death as multiple sharp force injuries. Around 8:30pm on March 29, the Columbia Police issued a missing person alert for Samantha with a photo and surveillance image showing the black Chevy Impala. Around 3am on March 30, an officer pulled over a black Chevy Impala just two blocks from the Five Points area. The driver attempted to flee on foot, but was caught. He was identified as 24 year old Nathaniel Roland. So, yeah, never good, right? Police try to pull you over, you immediately jump out the car and try to run for doesn't scream out, hey, I'm an innocent person.
- [17:34]
C
Not at all. It's like, oh, you found me. I got to make a run.
- [17:38]
A
Yeah, because why else are you running for it or, or making a run for it? And then it got worse because officers searched the car and they found a large amount of blood in the trunk and interior of the vehicle. Testing confirmed it was Samantha Josephson's blood.
- [17:57]
C
So here's this guy that has the car she got in. He looks like he's trying to make it another attempt. Right. He's down there by the Five Points. Sounds like this is something that he might like doing.
- [18:12]
A
Yeah, or because I can't imagine that he's trying to pick somebody else up with a bunch of blood in the interior. I'm thinking this is not that long after he just hasn't cleaned up yet.
- [18:26]
C
Just hasn't cleaned it up yet.
- [18:27]
A
That's what I'm thinking. But you, I don't know, could be wrong.
- [18:33]
C
Yeah.
- [18:34]
A
You know, it's dark out, lights come on when you open the the doors. But maybe somebody gets in, they don't notice it. Maybe he was out hunting. It's hard to say for sure, but Samantha's phone was also found in the passenger compartment along with bleach, sanitizing wipes and window cleaner.
- [18:56]
C
That does not look good.
- [18:57]
A
None of this looks good for Nathaniel. Right? You already tried to run from police when they tried to stop you. Unsuccessfully. They caught you, you've got a crime scene.
- [19:11]
C
Yeah.
- [19:12]
A
A whole forensic labs dream inside of your car. And on top of that, the victim's phone Is found in your car and you got a bunch of cleaning agents.
- [19:24]
C
So it'd be hard to get out of this one.
- [19:26]
A
Yeah, I mean it. It would be, you know, a lot of cases that we do. Like last Sunday's case, it didn't look great for that person. But I wouldn't say there was a ton of smoking gun evidence. I would call this smoking gun evidence.
- [19:44]
C
Oh, absolutely.
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A
I mean, is really incriminating.
- [19:46]
C
Yeah.
- [19:47]
A
The cars child safety law had been activated, which meant the rear doors could not be opened from the inside.
- [19:55]
C
I hate that. Have you ever been in a car in the back when they had those activated and forgot and then you get somewhere and everybody gets out and you go to grab and you're like, hey, you got to let me out of here. I can't get out.
- [20:09]
A
Well, first of all, you know, I don't ride with anybody else.
- [20:12]
C
Well, that is true.
- [20:13]
A
I always have to be the driver.
- [20:15]
C
Yeah.
- [20:15]
A
That's just a quirk of mine. I've been like that since I could drive. I do not like because the one time I did, I got into like a rollover six rollover accident. Yeah. When my buddy was driving. And ever since then, I'm not taking that chance. I don't want to. To really ride with someone else. Now you've experienced a lot because that's how cop cars work.
- [20:40]
C
That's a different type of locking system. But I just think that they should have. I mean, I love that they have this for child safety.
- [20:48]
A
Yeah. Because you don't want a child being able to open a car door and jumping out at high speed.
- [20:53]
C
I just think there should be some type of override for an adult sitting. Sitting back there that they can hit a certain button that the kids can't find or I don't know.
- [21:03]
A
I'm saying if you can do it, I'm sure kid can do.
- [21:06]
C
Probably true.
- [21:06]
A
Is the problem. But. But you know, that being said, if someone has something nefarious on their mind, well, that's a. I guess a good way to keep someone from getting out of your car.
- [21:22]
C
Yeah.
- [21:23]
A
So it is a little scary from that standpoint. But it also is just like everything. Right. Somebody has a good idea. It doesn't mean somebody can't use it in a way for which it wasn't intended in a bad way. Because there's a lot of things that you could say that about.
- [21:42]
C
I guess you could always look as you before you get in, look at the door, see if that little switch has been up or down and to
- [21:48]
A
see if it's got the the child lock on it.
- [21:51]
C
Yeah.
- [21:52]
A
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- [23:16]
C
But that's weird.
- [23:18]
A
Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [23:25]
C
of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent
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A
to $15 per month required.
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C
Intro rate first 3 months only, then
- [23:29]
A
full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mint mobile.com Nathaniel Roland was charged with murder and kidnapping. Columbia police announced the charges against Roland on the evening of March 30, noting that he had recently resided in New Zion and was familiar with the area where Samantha's body was found. Roland waived his right to appear in court. Samantha's mother, Marcy Josephson, said she was disappointed that they didn't get to see his evil face in court.
- [24:04]
C
Yeah, I'm sure she had some choice words and some choice looks that she wanted to give him both.
- [24:10]
A
Yeah, I would think so, she said at the bond hearing. Is quoted by wltx. Unlike him, Samantha valued human life and could never harm another soul. Unlike him, Samantha had love within her heart and a purpose in her life. The life he brutally ended. He took away our daughter, a sister, a granddaughter, a niece, a cousin and a friend. To so many, his selfish Unspeakable and violent actions have created a hole in the universe. A hole in our universe. And we see the unimaginable ripple effect on our world.
- [24:48]
C
Yeah. Wow. How well that was said.
- [24:50]
A
Yeah. I think that really sums up probably what a lot of victims feel.
- [24:58]
C
Yeah.
- [24:58]
A
Or victims families feel is like they just have this tremendous void in their life and there's nothing that's going to fill it, nothing that's going to replace it, because that person is never coming back now. At least they know who did it.
- [25:16]
C
Yeah.
- [25:16]
A
And. Yeah. Is it great?
- [25:19]
C
No.
- [25:20]
A
Your loved one is still deceased and was murdered. But we on our unsolved podcast talk about a lot of families who not only have that, but also have the added pain of never finding out exactly what happened and more importantly, who was responsible.
- [25:40]
C
Responsible. Yeah.
- [25:40]
A
And. And that person never gets brought to justice. So, I mean, it. It's. It's hard to say that there's a silver lining, but I think that's a. At least a. A good thing that, that this person was caught, captured. They know who did it.
- [25:56]
C
Yeah.
- [25:57]
A
In the aftermath of the murder, many expressed concern about the safety of rideshare apps. And. And you could see why. Yeah. I mean, you think about the number of people who use those types of services and how it's grown through the years since they first came along. A lot of people use those. And let's face it, there was a time when you didn't know who you were getting in the car with. I mean, technically you still don't know, but you have a lot more information about the person. Yeah.
- [26:34]
C
I think nowadays now you get what the. What the car supposed to look like
- [26:38]
A
and maybe even sometimes a picture so that you get a lot more information on the app. An Uber spokesperson issued a statement in early April 2019 that read, Since 2017, we've been working with local law enforcement and college campuses across the country to educate the public of. About how to avoid fake rideshare drivers. Everyone at Uber is devastated to hear about this unspeakable crime. And our hearts are with Samantha Josephson's family and loved ones. We remain focused on raising public awareness about this incredibly important issue. Okay, that's a statement from Uber. I'm sure they mean it, but they also have to put that out.
- [27:25]
C
They do.
- [27:25]
A
I mean, let's face it, no company wants to have a murder linked to them in the media. I'm not saying that the guy's lying because I'm, or whoever it was was lying. I'm sure they did feel that way. But they almost really have to say that. Come out.
- [27:46]
C
They want to put something positive out.
- [27:48]
A
Sure.
- [27:48]
C
Yeah.
- [27:49]
A
At a vigil for Samantha, Seymour Josephson said he planned to make it his mission in life to keep others from suffering the same as his daughter. He said Samantha was by herself. She had absolutely no chance. None. The door was locked.
- [28:07]
C
Yeah. Couldn't get out. Right.
- [28:08]
A
Yeah. He urged those listening to him to take their safety seriously and to never be out alone at night. Let's be honest, you guys are drinking, leaving the bar or whatever it may be. If there's somebody else in the car, there's actually a chance. And there is some validity to that. I mean, there's that old adage, Right. There's safety in numbers.
- [28:31]
C
Yeah. The buddy system.
- [28:33]
A
Yeah. It doesn't mean that someone couldn't attack two people. But are they less likely to? And I'd say the answer is probably yes.
- [28:42]
C
I agree.
- [28:42]
A
We have covered so many killers on this podcast, and the one thing that stands out about most of them, especially serial killers, is that they prey upon people who they consider to be vulnerable people. Yeah. Well, if you're alone, you're more vulnerable than you are if you're with somebody else. I think that just goes without saying.
- [29:11]
C
Safety in numbers.
- [29:12]
A
Yeah, I think that's true. He also wanted to ask rideshare companies about improving safety for passengers. Nathaniel Rowland's parents, Henry and Loretta, also spoke out after his arrest, saying they believed in their son's innocence and their hearts went out to Samantha's family.
- [29:31]
C
Wow, that's. It's hard to hear that they believe
- [29:35]
A
in their son's innocence.
- [29:37]
C
Yeah.
- [29:37]
A
Yeah. It doesn't surprise me though. I mean, you know, think about all the. Now we normally talk more about the victim's family, but you have to, in some cases talk about the perpetrators family as well. They're going through something.
- [29:55]
C
They are.
- [29:56]
A
But I think a lot of them, especially when it's like their son, their daughter. Yeah. They have a real hard time believing that the person they raised could have done this horrible thing.
- [30:10]
C
I mean, if they haven't heard about all the evidence and they just heard that the police believe he's the one that did that, that's one thing. But, and I get it, you never want to believe your kid can do that.
- [30:21]
A
Right.
- [30:21]
C
Man. When you see the evidence. Right.
- [30:23]
A
But it could be in spite of the evidence.
- [30:25]
C
Yeah.
- [30:26]
A
And also, we don't know how much of the evidence was public.
- [30:29]
C
Right.
- [30:30]
A
You know, some of that may have come out later at trial, but we're telling it, you know, In a, in maybe a different chronology. But still, I think some parents, even with all the evidence.
- [30:43]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [30:44]
A
Have a hard time facing the truth.
- [30:45]
C
Yeah. My baby would never do something like that.
- [30:48]
A
I think that's something that happens quite a lot. Henry Rowland defended his son, saying, he's a good kid. Ain't no way in the world he could do this. I think a lot of parents, again, would feel like that. However, Henry said that if Nathanael was guilty, he would have to pay the consequences, saying, if he did it, I'll be the first one to put him behind bars, lock him up and throw away the key.
- [31:17]
C
That's a good follow through on the question that he was asked, you know.
- [31:23]
A
Yeah. Because he's saying, hey, I, I just can't believe. Or we don't believe that he did it, but if he did, if he's guilty.
- [31:31]
C
Yep. He needs to pay the price.
- [31:32]
A
Yeah. So I'm with you. I, I think it's, it's a very pragmatic way to look at it. Yeah. You want to believe your son is innocent, but if it turns out he's not, you're going to feel bad. But he deserves to, to be sentenced.
- [31:49]
C
Just wonder if you're, you know, a parent of one of these killers, do you feel like the responsibility, like, do you feel like maybe we didn't raise them good?
- [32:02]
A
Oh, I, I guarantee you. Yeah, I guarantee you there's a ton of guilt, there's a ton of questions. What ifs? Right. What if we did this differently? Is there something we could have done differently that would have maybe changed the outcome? It cannot be easy on, on the parents of perpetrators either.
- [32:22]
C
Not at all.
- [32:23]
A
Roland's mother, Loretta, also told Wach that Nathaniel denied the allegations. She said, he's a very good young man. And when I talked to him yesterday, he told me that wasn't him. And I believe him. And again, this may be before. Right, Right. All of the evidence came out.
- [32:43]
C
Right.
- [32:44]
A
Days after the arrest, it was reported that Nathaniel Rowland allegedly sold items stolen during another woman's alleged kidnapping months earlier. And that's pretty scary. It is because that makes you believe that this was not a one time event. Now, it may be the only time he murdered, it may not be, but it certainly appears as though it wasn't the first time that he had done something along these lines, like almost.
- [33:15]
C
He could almost be a serial kidnapper and killer.
- [33:19]
A
Possibly. We don't know. On October 19, 2018, a woman told the police that two men carjacked her while she was at a traffic Light in Colombia. She was physically assaulted and forced to drive to an ATM to get money. The suspects made her drive to her home where they took items from inside and then fled the scene. Hours later. Deputies said Nathaniel Roland sold some of those stolen Items, including a PlayStation 4 at a pawn shop. Authorities traced the items to the pawn shop and arrested Roland. He was charged with obtaining goods under false pretenses. Columbia police did not indicate Roland was involved in the carjacking. And that to me makes it sound like he wasn't. That he somehow or for however reason got his hands on some of the stolen goods later on.
- [34:13]
C
Yeah.
- [34:14]
A
And then maybe he was the one tasked with pawning all of it and had to give some of the money to the other people. I. I don't know. But if he was involved in the carjacking, he would have been charged with a lot more.
- [34:28]
C
I think so too.
- [34:29]
A
The University of South Carolina held its spring commencement in May 2019. Samantha's family attended the ceremony and received her posthumous degree. You just talk about heartbreaking.
- [34:43]
C
Yeah.
- [34:46]
A
Thinking she should be here.
- [34:48]
C
Absolutely. You know, this is what she worked hard for.
- [34:52]
A
President Harris Pastides honored Samantha in a speech saying, I'd like to take a moment to recognize and honor the life and legacy of Samantha Josephson, our cherished 21 year old senior political science major whose life was tragically taken from us. Fellow GameCocks Class of 2019. We must ensure what happened to Samantha never happens again to any college student or indeed to any person asking what's my name? Before getting in a rideshare vehicle will save lives.
- [35:27]
C
That's a true statement.
- [35:29]
A
Yeah. And I remember this pretty vividly. When it happened. That was like a big thing coming in the aftermath of it, which was start asking these rideshare drivers, hey, what's my name? One of the many things. There was a bunch of different things
- [35:48]
C
that that came out, but even something as simple as that. Right. I mean, what's the odds that a fraudster is going to know your name?
- [35:58]
A
Yeah. Complete stranger.
- [35:59]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:00]
A
I mean, it's better. It doesn't cost anything. Right. Easy to implement. Anyone can do it. Nathaniel Rowland's murder trial started on July 18, 2021. The prosecution presented numerous pieces of evidence pointing to Roland as the killer. The jury heard that someone unsuccessfully attempted to use Samantha's debit card at an ATM in Sumter around 5am on March 29. Surveillance video showed someone wearing a bandana attempting to access the account. And police figured out that Roland's phone was in this location at the very Same time. How many times have I said it? You know, digital footprint, cell phone data, tracking, it all comes back to bite you. Really does I still. It is hard for me to believe that people get away still with as many crimes as they do.
- [37:01]
C
I am surprised as well.
- [37:03]
A
With all the new technology that we have, all the cameras that are around.
- [37:08]
C
I heard a special the other day on that GEO fencing and really how far they can dial that down to. And it's amazing.
- [37:18]
A
Pretty crazy.
- [37:18]
C
Pretty crazy. If they, if they actually need to use that tool and the courts give them the rights to do it, they can pretty much show up at your front door.
- [37:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. Which is going to stink if you just happen to be in an area and you didn't have anything to do with it.
- [37:36]
C
But.
- [37:37]
A
But you know, to me, if it leads to finding the real killer, let's just say a killer. Right. In a murder, is it that big a deal to have police ask you some questions? I get it. Some people will say, yeah, it is. It's an invasion of my privacy. They don't want it. I understand that. To me, I wouldn't have a problem with it. I know I didn't do anything wrong. And if it, if it helps lead to the right person, I would be more than happy to. To answer some questions.
- [38:08]
C
I think you're going to have that be a 50. 50, I think.
- [38:12]
A
Yeah. I think a lot of people are going to say no.
- [38:14]
C
Yeah. Because where does it stop?
- [38:17]
A
Right. And it is a slippery slope.
- [38:18]
C
Yeah.
- [38:19]
A
You do have to be careful with. With some of those things. Roland's phone then traveled to his girlfriend's home. Roland's girlfriend, Maria Howard, testified that she and Roland had known each other for years. And in March 2019, he was staying overnight at her home regularly. On March 28, she asked him to wash her work shirt and left her work visor in his car. He was home when she went to bed, but when she went downstairs early the next morning, he was gone. He didn't answer her text and eventually showed up in the clothes he was wearing the night before, which normally doesn't go over well.
- [38:59]
C
No.
- [39:00]
A
With men and women. That's exactly right in any type of relationship because it denotes that one of the people was doing something they shouldn't have been doing. Now, I would say more often than not, it's fair or something like that.
- [39:17]
C
Yeah.
- [39:18]
A
Less likely that it's murder, but it could be.
- [39:21]
C
There's still a story that has to be told. Where were you and what did you do?
- [39:25]
A
Yeah. And if you were doing Something you shouldn't have been. You're still gonna have to come up with a lie.
- [39:29]
C
Yeah.
- [39:30]
A
She noticed that her work visor was missing. She asked him where it was and he said he'd been out in the country and no longer had it because it had blood on it.
- [39:41]
C
Okay, that's a strange response. Why not just say I don't know what happened to it, you know, why go to that extent again?
- [39:50]
A
Maybe we're not talking about smartest person in the world. I have no idea what this guy's IQ was. But it is a strange thing to say because now you have to believe there's going to be a follow up question.
- [40:02]
C
Oh, absolutely. How can you tell that to somebody and not expect a follow up question?
- [40:07]
A
Yeah, because it's going to be okay, so now tell me why was there blood? How did it get in your car? And then you have to, you know, come up with an answer for that. But when she asked him why, he told her, mind your business.
- [40:24]
C
Mind your business. I bet that went over well.
- [40:26]
A
Yeah. So apparently you don't have to come up with a lie. You can just tell someone to mind their own business.
- [40:32]
C
Yeah.
- [40:32]
A
Roland briefly left to take his nephew to school. When he returned, he had her work shirt but it was wet. When she got into his car so he could drive her to work, she noticed dried blood throughout the car which
- [40:49]
C
worried her and as it should.
- [40:51]
A
I think anybody should be worried if they see, you know, dry blood all over the the car. Later that day she got a ride home from a co worker. When she returned, she found Roland cleaning the car with bleach and wipes. He continued cleaning the car and a multi tool in the passenger seat as she drove the car to pick up her daughter.
- [41:16]
C
Okay. He was really trying to get it clean.
- [41:18]
A
Well, yeah, I mean we need to get the blood out before we go pick up her daughter. Apparently this is the one car and it has to be used by everybody. So not a lot of options. I'm still, you know, again, I, I get it. I don't know what this relationship was like.
- [41:38]
C
Yeah.
- [41:39]
A
And there is a, a some people who know at a certain point they can't press any further because it's going to get out of hand. But I would have a hard time being satisfied with the mind your business in relation to this question of where all this blood came from.
- [41:57]
C
Sure. But you have to be somewhat concerned too that he's cleaning this multi tool. I mean I know you have several multi tools.
- [42:04]
A
I have five of them in this studio. I love multi tools and I know
- [42:09]
C
some of them can have a fairly large blade in them.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah. Most of them have a fairly good sized knife.
- [42:16]
C
Yeah.
- [42:16]
A
Blade.
- [42:18]
C
So I don't know if that maybe that could have been the weapon used.
- [42:23]
A
Yeah. I mean we may talk about it.
- [42:25]
C
Yeah.
- [42:27]
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- [42:58]
C
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- [43:07]
A
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- [43:09]
C
Good reason. Ooh, and the sauna.
- [43:12]
A
Sweet.
- [43:13]
C
Another good reason.
- [43:14]
A
And that it's one of those good saunas with the hot rock thing.
- [43:17]
C
Ugh.
- [43:17]
A
Love a good hot rock thing.
- [43:19]
C
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- [43:26]
A
you verbo when they returned home, Roland left and returned with the rose gold ifa. It looked like a woman's phone. Roland said he was getting it ready for her, but she didn't need a phone at the time. She asked about the blood again, repeatedly. But again he told her to mind her business.
- [43:47]
C
Mind your business. I'm telling you right now. I don't know too many people that would be okay with that.
- [43:55]
A
I don't know many women who are okay with the mind your business. Yeah, routine. But also all of a sudden you've got. You got me a rose gold iPhone when I don't need an iPhone. That's got to be kind of a. A strange thing as well. IPhones are not cheap. That's exactly as any of us who have one know. When she saw a news report about Samantha Josephson and the suspect vehicle, then it all started making sense to her. But she didn't go to police because she was scared for herself and her daughter. After Roland's arrest, the police talked to her. So obviously that's when all of the, you know, the information we just talked about would have come out.
- [44:40]
C
Yeah, I Mean, I feel. I feel what? Feel bad for. Because I understand, you know, her concern. Like, I can't go to the police and risk him finding out. And now me and my daughter are at danger. Yeah.
- [44:54]
A
If this guy literally just killed somebody. Yeah. Then is he going to be that worried about killing you or your daughter if he thinks you're going to put him in jail? That. That's a real fear.
- [45:10]
C
It is.
- [45:11]
A
There's no way around that. The jury heard that during the early morning traffic stop on March 30, Roland cooperated until he was told that his car matched a suspect's vehicle. That's the point where he got out and fled. Roland thought he got rid of the evidence, but it comes back to the clothing. This was. According to prosecutor Daniel Goldberg. Roland was wearing the same hoodie seen on the ATM surveillance video. Gloves seen on the video were found at his girlfriend's home. The shoes and bandana from the surveillance video were found in his car.
- [45:49]
C
Pretty solid.
- [45:50]
A
Yeah. Pretty hard to argue. And then you have Samantha's DNA. It was found on Roland's beanie. Her blood was also found on the bandana. He hadn't gotten rid of those items because he didn't see the blood on them. Yeah. And you and I talk about blood a lot, and that's the one thing you hear, you know, whether it's trying to clean up a crime scene or when you murder someone up close and personal, and there's blood spatter, you have no idea where that blood spatter is going to go. And, you know, you can wash, you can do all types of things, but you're not going to catch all of it.
- [46:34]
C
No, you're not.
- [46:34]
A
Unless you strip down and you literally burn everything you have on. Which he, thankfully did not do.
- [46:40]
C
Right. Right. But that's what you'd have to do. Everything you had on and the vehicle with it.
- [46:45]
A
Yeah. Because short of that, they're gonna find it if they. If they know who you are. Samantha's blood was also found on the multi tool, which was found in the trash at Maria Howard's home. A DNA expert would testify that Samantha's DNA was found under Roland's nails, but his DNA was not under her nails. An unidentified individual's DNA was found on the handle of the multi tool. Samantha's DNA was found on the blade. So, you know, it's looking like you were. You were right about that. That this multi tool that he was trying to clean is looking like the murder weapon.
- [47:31]
C
Right.
- [47:32]
A
Samantha's footprint was also found on a window Inside Roland's car.
- [47:37]
C
Yeah. Which is, you know, was that her trying to kick the window out or was that her struggling during.
- [47:44]
A
Both. Both, maybe.
- [47:45]
C
Yeah.
- [47:46]
A
But either way, it's heartbreaking to think about absolutely what she went through in the back seat of that car. Dr. Thomas Beaver, a forensic pathologist, told the jury Samantha was stabbed over a hundred times and had facial injuries that looked as if she was dragged. The stab wounds were parallel, which is unlike a traditional knife and would have had to have come from something unique. He believed the multi tool was the murder weapon.
- [48:16]
C
Over 100 times. This guy's a monster. Oh, yeah.
- [48:19]
A
I mean, that is hideous. The multi tool has two parallel blades bent at the tip. So I don't know. Every multi tool is a little bit different.
- [48:31]
C
Yeah.
- [48:32]
A
I don't know what type of multi tool has two parallel blades. Like I said, I. I have a bunch of them, but I don't have any that have parallel blades on them. Dr. Beaver also testified that the body typically holds a gallon of blood, but only 20 milliliters of blood, which is about 2 tablespoons.
- [48:54]
C
Oh.
- [48:54]
A
Was found in Samantha's body, indicating she bled out.
- [48:59]
C
Yeah. I mean, if you're gonna be stabbed over 100 times, I can see that happening.
- [49:04]
A
And if it happens in the backseat of the car. Yeah. Well, now I think, you know, we're. We're understanding a little bit better why there was so much blood.
- [49:16]
C
Yeah.
- [49:16]
A
Inside of that car. Wow.
- [49:18]
C
And I just think about her family hearing this, learning this. Right. During. During the different stages of the investigation and. And what that had to do to them. I mean, it's just devastating to hear your daughter was attacked like that, and then to hear that almost all her blood was, you know, drained out of her body.
- [49:41]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's. It's got. Always has to be tough for the family.
- [49:44]
C
Right.
- [49:44]
A
To sit in the courtroom and hear all the. The details of what happened to your loved one. Neck wounds to the jugular and carotid artery and a severed hyoid bone, along with stab wounds to the head, were lethal and caused the loss of blood. Surveillance and video analyst Justin Martin testified that Roland and Samantha's phone traveled together out of the Five points area for a short time before hers stopped showing up. Roland's phone pinged until it went to a remote area in Clarendon county where Samantha's body was found. The defense didn't present any witnesses, and Roland chose not to testify.
- [50:29]
C
Yeah. What was he going to say?
- [50:31]
A
Well, and I don't know what witnesses they would have. Who are they going to call?
- [50:36]
C
Yeah,
- [50:39]
A
I don't think yet. No alibi witnesses?
- [50:41]
C
No.
- [50:42]
A
I mean, you don't call character witnesses. Right. Until more of the. The penalty phase. I don't know. Maybe you can, but normally you see that more in, like, the. The penalty phase of the trial. But either way, that doesn't. It's not going to sway a jury, even if they did have some people like that. During closing arguments, the defense noted that Roland's DNA was not found on Samantha's body, and his DNA wasn't found on the handle of the murder weapon. Roland had no cuts and bruises on his body, and there were two unidentified male DNA profiles found during testing. Defense attorney Tracy Pinnock argued that the narrative is getting skewed. She noted that during the traffic stop, Roland cooperated until his arm was allegedly grabbed and another officer lunged at him. She argued that blood transfers easily, which is why there was a large amount of blood in the car prior to processing. The car detectives were in the woods in New Zion where the body was found. Okay, I get it. I say it all the time. I understand that defense attorneys have to try to pull something out of their hat, but this, it's. It's a stretch.
- [52:04]
C
It's not even trying to pull something out of their hat at this point.
- [52:06]
A
It's pulling something out of. Yeah, the opposite end. Yeah, I get what you're saying, but they have to do something for their client to make the claim that this large amount of blood that. That's found in the car was dragged in there by these cops. That. That came from the woods. That. That doesn't make any sense to me.
- [52:29]
C
Yeah.
- [52:29]
A
Samantha's body was found in the woods, but there was no dirt or debris on Roland's clothing. Three pairs of shoes in his car had no blood on them. First of all, who has three pairs of shoes in their car? I don't even have three pairs of shoes in my closet.
- [52:46]
C
No, but you got about 12 pairs down here.
- [52:50]
A
I know there are a lot of people who are into shoes. Yeah, I get it. I'm not one of them. But, but, but what does that mean? Right. Okay, so there's three pairs in there that don't have any blood on them.
- [53:02]
C
Maybe threw one that pair away.
- [53:04]
A
No, you mean the pair he was wearing?
- [53:06]
C
Yeah.
- [53:06]
A
Yeah. I mean, I don't know what the absence of blood on that means. I do know what the presence of blood on other things means and what it would mean to the jury. Pinnock also noted that Maria Howard's DNA was found on bags containing Bloody clothes. Roland's DNA was part of a mixture of DNA on the multi tool, but he was not a major contributor. Pinnock argued. If the state is going to tell you that Josephson did not have Rowland's DNA on her because he was wearing gloves, but there is his DNA on the tool. That is contradictory. In their closing statement, the prosecution argued that there was no other credible suspect and the killing was cold, malicious and intentional. Well, the last part I agree with the no other credible suspect argument. I mean, I think if I'm a juror, I'm not putting a lot of stock in that. Just because you don't have another suspect.
- [54:06]
C
Yeah.
- [54:07]
A
Doesn't mean this guy's guilty. Now if you want to point to all the evidence. Okay, you can do that. I don't like that statement.
- [54:15]
C
I guess I see what you're saying.
- [54:17]
A
Just because to me it doesn't mean anything. Although Samantha freely got into the car, the moment she began fighting to get out, it became a kidnapping.
- [54:29]
C
That is true.
- [54:30]
A
The prosecution also noted that if it hadn't been for the turkey hunters, it's unlikely Samantha's body would have ever been found because no one would go out there. Unless you were a local.
- [54:43]
C
Yeah, I was just gonna say that was a local. I mean that was a fortunate find,
- [54:48]
A
the discovery by the hunters. Yeah. Because if her body's not found, then you, you would have lost a lot of evidence if it was found much later on.
- [54:59]
C
Yeah. And if it was never found, this would be one we would be having on the other podcast.
- [55:04]
A
Or they would have had to try it as a no body case, which obviously makes it harder and harder. Even if they thought it was him. No doubt it's harder. On July 27, 2021, Nathaniel Roland was found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison. Before sentencing, Roland told the judge, I know I'm innocent, but I guess what I know and what I think really doesn't matter. Matter.
- [55:30]
C
No, not really. I mean, your girlfriend said you were sitting there, you had blood in your car, you were cleaning, had wipes. You mean you, you knew what you were doing?
- [55:39]
A
Yeah. I mean there was a lot of evidence.
- [55:41]
C
Yeah, right.
- [55:43]
A
Stacked up against this guy. I get it. What's he supposed to say? Yeah, you got me.
- [55:49]
C
Yeah. He's going to argue it, right? I mean, why wouldn't you want to argue? You're going to continue to argue it, hoping that somebody will change the outcome, but it's not going to happen.
- [56:00]
A
No, it's not going to happen. Since Samantha's murder, state and federal legislation has been passed to enhance rideshare safety. In June 2019, South Carolina passed the Samantha Josephson Ride Sharing Safety Act. The laws mandate stricter identification and safety regulations such as illuminated sign. New Jersey passed Sammy's Law, which also required illuminated signs for rideshare vehicles. On January 5, 2023, Joe Biden signed Sammy's Law, which enhanced rideshare safety on a national level.
- [56:38]
C
Good.
- [56:39]
A
Well, I think it just shows you what this case did. Yeah, it scared the you know, what
- [56:45]
C
out of people, as it should have
- [56:48]
A
over what really was the lack of safety precautions or things built in to the whole ride sharing concept.
- [57:00]
C
I mean, not even just in college campus life. Right. Just everywhere. But I mean, think about, you know, your kids went off to college.
- [57:12]
A
Sure.
- [57:12]
C
Right.
- [57:12]
A
I got one still there, still there.
- [57:15]
C
That could or maybe have taken Ubers. You would want to know that there's the best protocol out there, safety protocol that can be used to help protect them. And you know, unfortunately back then there wasn't. So this is something good. I think it, as a parent, I think you. You never really sleep great when your kids. You don't, but your sleep somewhat better. Right? Yeah.
- [57:43]
A
You're gonna know even nowadays when we have things like the Apple apps or, you know, life360. Yeah, things like that. Where you can track loved ones phones. I can't go to sleep if my daughter is out somewhere. Yeah. Down at school now I. I stay up pretty late anyway, so that's not normally a problem. But I got to see her get home. I got to get that notification that she's home before I can go to sleep. The law required the Government Accountability Office to submit a biennial report to Congress regarding the incidents of assaults involving drivers and passengers of for hire vehicles such as Uber and Lyft. It requires rideshare drivers to display lighted signs and scannable QR codes as a safety regulation and criminalizes misrepresentation of being a driver of a ride sharing service. Samantha's parents also established the what's My Name foundation to educate people about rideshare safety and advocate for policies that enhance safety. The NonProfit created the SAMI acronym, which is Stop, Ask, Match, Inform to encourage safety.
- [59:05]
C
I mean, that's awesome. And I remember her dad saying that he was going to do everything he
- [59:10]
A
could he said was going to make it his life's mission.
- [59:13]
C
Mission. Yes.
- [59:14]
A
And he did.
- [59:15]
C
He did.
- [59:15]
A
I think he did. But this is a lot of times what we see right in the wake of a tragedy, especially parents kind of doing something in the name of Their loved one, number one. It's going to help a lot of people out, but also it helps honor their loved one.
- [59:34]
C
Yeah.
- [59:35]
A
You know, they named all of these acts after her and, you know, these are all good things that were. That are put in place.
- [59:43]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [59:45]
A
But, you know, as we wrap this one up, it's a pretty infamous case. A lot of people remember it. You know, I can't help but feel, and I have throughout the episode from the time that we talked about her, you know, trying to get out of that back seat and finding out that the door was locked. The horror that she must have felt.
- [60:10]
C
Yeah.
- [60:11]
A
In that, that moment. And then to find out that she was stabbed a hundred times. It just, it just goes to show you the brutality of this crime. I mean, it was, it was that brutal.
- [60:24]
C
And all for what? You know, I mean, really, what. He's never going to say because he says he's innocent, but.
- [60:30]
A
Yeah.
- [60:31]
C
Why, why would you do something like that?
- [60:33]
A
Yeah. What was the reason he, you know, again, like you said, he hasn't come out and said what the reason was because he's still maintaining his. His innocence. He got life in prison. He deserves that. He doesn't deserve to, to be out walking.
- [60:48]
C
No, not at all.
- [60:48]
A
For what he did.
- [60:49]
C
Not a good kid.
- [60:50]
A
No, not at all. But that's it for our episode on Samantha Josephson and that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
- [61:04]
B
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