John Davis

Summary

True Crime All The Time – Episode 509: The Murder of John Davis

Release Date: June 25, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson dive deep into the 2001 murder of John Davis, a well-liked warehouse night manager from suburban Philadelphia. What initially looked like a possible robbery soon morphed into a tangled web of jealousy, power, and control involving John’s ex-girlfriend Vernell Jones and her domineering partner, Kenneth Burno. The case reveals shocking details of manipulation, coercion, and violence, ultimately centering on a “hit list” targeting men from Vernell’s past.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Crime Scene and Initial Theories

• John Davis’s Murder (02:34–03:59):

  • John Davis, night manager at David’s Bridal warehouse in Lafayette Hill, was found shot execution-style in his van on December 17, 2001.
  • Despite having $700 in cash and valuables on him, nothing was stolen, suggesting the motive wasn't robbery.
  • “If you’re going to cross the line and murder someone, would you not take their money as well?” – Mike Ferguson (02:55)
  • The unusual nature of the crime led police to suspect a personal motive.

• The Discovery (10:06–10:58):

  • John’s coworker, opening the warehouse the next morning, found John dead in his van with the engine running.
  • John had been shot in the back of the head at close range. It appeared the killer(s) had been waiting in the back of the van.

John Davis: Character and Relationships

• John’s Personality (05:11–07:55):

  • John was described as a team builder and father figure at work, as well as a devoted father to his three children from a previous marriage.
  • “John was a life-changing individual with an off the charts personality.” – Ferguson, recounting coworker testimony (05:21)

• Relationship Dynamics:

  • At his death, John was in a relationship with Tamara Walls but had dated Vernell Jones in the past.
  • On the night of his death, John’s coworker recalled John receiving a suspicious phone call from an old flame who wanted to meet—John was apprehensive, even stating, “I wonder if I’m being set up.” (08:49)

The Investigation Unfolds

• The Prime Suspects and Alibis (12:44–17:44):

  • Police first scrutinized those closest to John – his current girlfriend, Tamara, and ex-wife, Kimberly. Both offered plausible alibis corroborated by call records and family.
  • Kimberly insisted the divorce was amicable: “There was no resentment between them, and John was an excellent father to their kids.” – (16:34)
  • Attention soon turned to the mysterious phone call from Vernell Jones, a former girlfriend and coworker.

• The Link to Vernell Jones (19:37–22:38):

  • Police uncovered a voicemail from Vernell arranging to meet John at 9:30 pm—the likely time of his murder.
  • A coworker remembered a previous incident where a man from Vernell’s life confronted John and warned him to stay away, raising the possibility of jealousy-driven violence.

The Web of Jealousy: Vernell Jones and Kenneth Burno

• Background: Vernell & Kenneth (24:01–32:27):

  • Vernell, an aspiring singer, had begun dating her former manager, Kenneth Burno, who had a history in the local music scene (once considered for Boyz II Men).
  • Kenneth became financially and emotionally entangled with Vernell, leaving his wife for her and exhibiting increasingly controlling behavior.
  • “He controlled who she could talk to, where she could go, and how much she could spend ... gave him every check she made.” – Ferguson, summarizing Vernell’s later statement (43:32)

• Key Quote – Motive and Control:

  • “Kill these men or our relationship was over. He used the list to create a written contract where the two of them would kill the five individuals.” – Ferguson (47:13)

Pattern of Violence Emerges

• Past Violence: The Ronald Humphrey Shooting (34:05–36:44):

  • Police discovered Vernell had recently shot a former partner, firefighter Ronald Humphrey, after luring him under false pretenses—he survived.
  • Ronald’s blunt revelation: “That b***h shot me.” (34:05)
  • Ballistics confirmed John and Ronald were shot with the same .38 caliber revolver (36:44).

• The “Hit List” and Deadly Pact (45:02–48:43):

  • Kenneth forced Vernell to create a list of men (including relatives) he suspected her of being involved with sexually.
  • The murder of John Davis and the attempt on Ronald were both orchestrated under this twisted agreement.

• The Murder Plot (51:13):

  • On the night of John’s murder, Kenneth hid in John’s van and shot him as Vernell lured John inside. Kenneth then forced Vernell to fire additional shots, binding her further to the crime.

Legal Resolution and Sentencing

• Plea Deals and Testimony (55:48–57:17):
  • Vernell, under significant pressure and abuse from Kenneth, pleaded guilty to aggravated assault and later to third-degree murder in exchange for testifying against Kenneth.
  • DA Castor reflected: “She’s criminally culpable here, but she’s not the driving force behind this contract to commit the series of murders.” (55:48)
  • Vernell received a sentence of 17-35 years and was paroled in 2018; Kenneth was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life in prison (58:19).

Reflections on Jealousy and Motivation

• Extreme Jealousy (53:57–54:10):
  • The hosts question Kenneth’s motivation, noting the unusual intensity of jealousy extending to past relationships:
  • “This is taking jealousy to a whole another level that I don’t know I’ve ever even heard of.” – Ferguson (53:57)
  • “To say, tell me who you had … five years before and be jealous over that? It was before I met you!” – Gibson (54:10)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Crime’s Personal Nature:
  “If you’re trying to throw police off, well, you’re not really doing a good job if you’re not going to take any valuables.” – Ferguson (03:19)

• On the Initial Suspicions:
  “It's pretty hard for police to think that this is some type of robbery gone wrong.” – Ferguson (03:34)

• On the Shooting in the Van:
  “That’s a scary thought ... somebody’s been waiting there all night to the end of your shift to come out there to execute you.” – Gibson (10:39)

• When Confronted by Ronald’s Testimony:
  “To their surprise, Ronald responded, ‘That b***h shot me.’ And I know it’s not funny. No, it's not.” – Ferguson & Gibson (34:05)

• On the "Hit List" and Control:
  “He didn't ask Vernell for her to write a list. He wrote a list of the people he thought she had been with … I think he's got some very serious control issues.” – Ferguson (45:56–46:08)

• Irony and Black Humor:
  “If someone says, either kill these men or this is over, I’d be like, ah, okay. Finally, it’s over. Bye.” – Gibson joking (47:13)

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Timeline & Key Timestamps

• 02:34: Introduction to the case and John Davis’s murder.
• 08:49: “I wonder if I’m being set up” – John expresses concerns to coworker Bobby Woodson.
• 10:06–10:58: Discovery of John Davis’s body in his van.
• 14:50: Discussion of Tamara and Kimberly’s alibis.
• 19:37–22:38: Investigation zeroes in on Vernell Jones and the suspicious phone call.
• 34:05: Interview with Ronald Humphrey reveals he was also shot by Vernell.
• 36:44: Ballistics link both shootings to the same gun.
• 43:32: Details of Kenneth’s controlling behavior over Vernell surface.
• 47:13: Revelation of the murder “contract” and kill-or-breakup ultimatum.
• 51:13: The night of the murder—Kenneth and Vernell both shoot John Davis.
• 55:48–57:17: Plea deals, sentencing, and DA’s reflection on culpability.
• 58:19–59:16: Final sentencing: Kenneth Brno receives life; Vernell paroled in 2018.

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Final Thoughts

Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson wrap up with commentary on the psychological extremes of jealousy and control, the disturbing nature of Kenneth’s hit list, and their perspective on the criminal accountability of Vernell given the extent of her abuse.

• “I also believe that without Kenneth, I don't think she does the killing. … But she did sign a contract saying she would kill five people.” – Ferguson (60:11; 56:06)
• “This is a wild case because I get people are jealous. … But to go back in time and be jealous about people who she … may have been with before you guys, that really seems like jealousy to the extreme.” – Ferguson (61:07)

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Engaging Takeaway

This episode is a compelling examination not just of a tragic crime, but of the toxic power of jealousy, manipulation, and abuse. It offers sobering reminders of the ripple effects abuse can have, and how a controlling partner can escalate ordinary relationship problems into deadly violence.

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For full context, intense banter, and the darkly comedic rapport between Mike and Gibby, catch the entire episode wherever you listen to podcasts.

Transcript

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 509 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm doing good man. 509 Crazy isn't it? Isn't that like a pair of jeans?

[Mike Ferguson]

509 yeah. I think so.

[Mike Gibson]

Button fly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Is that the button fly? I don't do button fly. Get some.511 seems like a lot of

[Mike Gibson]

work.509 it would be a lot of

[Mike Ferguson]

work as opposed to like one zip.

[Mike Gibson]

I had them at one point when they first came out. I think there's like five buttons. It's.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's Too much.

[Mike Gibson]

It's too much.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True crime All the Time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about John Davis. In December 2001, John Davis was shot execution style inside his car in the Philadelphia area. John had hundreds of dollars in cash with him, but none of it was stolen, leading investigators to dig into his personal life to search for a motive.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a lot of money to have on hand.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. And I mean, if you're. Again, I know I've talked about it before, but if you're going to cross the line and murder someone, would you not take their money as well? You don't have a lot of scruples, obviously.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, regardless of why I would shoot somebody, I would still take the money to maybe throw off investigators.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's a good point, because if you don't take the money, if you don't take watches or rings or anything like that, it's pretty hard for police to think that this is some type of robbery gone wrong.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Scenario. So what are they going to lean into? Well, maybe it's someone that this person knew, someone who had a grudge against him or something like that. So, yeah, to your point, it's like if you're trying to throw police off, well, you're not really doing a good job if. If you're not going to take any valuable.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you know, it's not what I would do based on my past experience,

[Mike Ferguson]

which I know you have a lot of.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

John Davis was a night manager at a David's bridal warehouse in Lafayette Hill and unincorporated community in White Marsh Township, which is a suburb of Philadelphia.

[Mike Gibson]

You're been to David's bridle?

[Mike Ferguson]

I have, yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Actually.

[Mike Ferguson]

Actually just spent a bunch of money there a few months ago.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm pretty. Pretty sure that's where my daughter got her dress.

[Mike Gibson]

I think you get. You can get tuxes there, too, or rent tuxes from them. I think if I remember right, I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm hoping to never have to do that again.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you do have one other daughter.

[Mike Ferguson]

That is true.

[Mike Gibson]

So maybe one more time and then never again.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, not more than one more time.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, is that what you said?

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I said never. But now that you mention it, definitely not more than one more time.

[Mike Gibson]

Unless you want to renew your valves

[Mike Ferguson]

because, you know, not wearing the tux for that.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And didn't have to wear a tux for my oldest daughter's Wedding because it was in Jamaica.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Still win full suit though for some reason.

[Mike Gibson]

And you just love that suit too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh yeah, it was gangbusters until I started sweating in it and then it's felt like what I assume a wetsuit feels like that you use to scuba dive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

John's co worker Bobby Woodson only knew him for a few months, but in that time John took him under his wing and became a father figure. In his interview for the show Philly Homicide, Bobby said that John was a life changing individual with an off the charts personality. He was great at team building and motivating people in the workplace. He was community oriented and volunteered with ymcas in the Philadelphia area area.

[Mike Gibson]

Team building and motivating people. Man, that, that is you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Back in the day, you know, I wasn't going to toot my own horn, but that was one of my strong suits.

[Mike Gibson]

You were definitely a somebody that can

[Mike Ferguson]

motivate people and I am a life changing individual, as I've told myself. I don't think I've ever been told that.

[Mike Gibson]

But you, you could got a track record there maybe, possibly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now am I very community oriented? I'd have to say no. I have to say no to that.

[Mike Gibson]

That's just a hard no.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a hard no. Unfortunately I wish I did more volunteer work, but I don't.

[Mike Gibson]

It requires you to go up those steps and out that door.

[Mike Ferguson]

If I could volunteer here in the basement in some form or fashion, I would look into that. But they normally want you to, to come to a certain place. They do, to volunteer. It was also said that John saw potential in people who didn't see it in themselves. And that's definitely me because I saw potential in you. You saw none in yourself when I first hired you. You barely see any in you now. And I actually somehow see less than I did back then.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think I probably proved you wrong. You know, where you thought you saw potential, you're like, you know what, maybe I just never saw what I thought I saw.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now to be honest with you, you know, you've climbed the ranks. You've done a lot in, in your time at the place where we both worked. So yeah, you all right. You've done all right, man. John was also a family man and he loved his children. He had three children with his ex wife, Kimberly Williams. Although they were no longer together by 2001, John remained a devoted father. And we talk about divorce a lot. It just comes up in, in many, many cases, you know, marriages don't work out but when you have kids, man, so important, right, to stay in, in their lives and, and be a mom or dad, but whichever one you are. So that's good to hear.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Important, keep that connection.

[Mike Ferguson]

At the time of his death, he was in a relationship with a woman named Tamara Walls. John was killed on the evening of December 17, 2001, shortly after he left the David's Bridal Warehouse. The last person to see him alive was his co worker, Bobby Woodson. John and Bobby were working that night in the warehouse. Bobby noticed that at one point John was at his desk on the phone. He also saw that John was texting someone and he didn't seem happy. He asked John what was going on. John said he got a call from a woman he dated in the past and she wanted to meet up that night. He was skeptical because he hadn't seen her in a while. He thought she wanted to meet up to try to rekindle things. But he seemed apprehensive. Apparently John even said to Bobby, I wonder if I'm being set up.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So then you think, what does that mean? Like set up how? Like they're gonna rob me or set up? She's gonna say that maybe she's pregnant,

[Mike Ferguson]

that, you know, I'm a dad now. Yeah, but, but here's the thing. If you've got those kind of thoughts swirling around, maybe you just say, no,

[Mike Gibson]

I'm good, I'm happy with what I currently have.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, he's in a relationship with someone. Maybe you don't need to meet this person.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

John and Bobby had a bit of trouble with setting the alarm, but they got it sorted and walked out of the warehouse at 9:05pm they talked a little bit, you know, in the parking lot. At 9:30pm Bobby said goodbye to John and got in his car. As he was backing out, he saw John getting into his car as he drove out of the parking lot. He saw John's car lights on and assumed everything was fine. And it seems like, you know, I could understand why that seems like a fairly normal interaction. Right. You leave together, you spend a little bit time out by your car talking, shooting the bull. And then, you know, you leave. His car lights are on, the car's on.

[Mike Gibson]

So you assume he's going to be leaving shortly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. No problems. On the morning of December 18, 2001, an employee opening up the warehouse saw John's van parked in the parking lot with the engine still running. He recognized that it belonged to John. He thought John might be asleep, so he knocked on the window, but received no response. He opened the door and saw blood everywhere. John had been shot in the back of the head at close range. It appeared someone had been waiting in the back of his van to shoot him. That's a scary thought.

[Mike Gibson]

It is a scary, you know, thought thinking that somebody's been waiting there all night to the end of your shift to come out there to execute you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, in, in the van idea, Right. Depending on what type of van it is, there might be some places for people to hide.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not like you got a four door car and you can pretty much see what's going on in the back seat as you walk up.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, you know, there's times and you know that when I went to my vehicle, I would look, you know, see who's back there. Hopefully nobody, you know, look like this.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, so are you already passing the car?

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. Because it looks like you're already in the car and you're just looking backwards. I was gonna say by that time it's too late.

[Mike Gibson]

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, you gotta look before

[Kiana]

back there.

[Mike Gibson]

I haven't had to do that in a long time though, you know, so I'm not worried about it. So I don't even look at it now. I just get in the car.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, well, now you just told everybody you don't look. So if they want to come after you, that's the way to get you. I guess.

[Mike Gibson]

I got cameras in my car now,

[Mike Ferguson]

but I mean, obviously for this person who worked with John, knew John, or even if you didn't know the person, this is a traumatic scene. Right. You're opening up a door and finding someone shot to death, blood everywhere. Now robbery didn't appear to be the motive because John's vehicle hadn't been stolen for one. And his wallet was there with about $700 of cash inside.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a nice healthy chunk of cash. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Whoever shot John was meticulous in making sure they left no fingerprints behind. Now is that because they wiped the van down or more than likely because they use gloves?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, they probably had gloves on.

[Mike Ferguson]

That would be my thought. John's co workers were in complete shock when they learned he had been murdered. Especially Bobby Wilson, who had just seen him. Bobby's girlfriend verified he was at home the entire night. So yeah, obviously Bobby being the last one known to have seen John. Yeah, he is going to be questioned. He's going to be a person of interest.

[Mike Gibson]

Makes sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it sounds like he's got a pretty good alibi yeah. At least as good of one as you can have where one person is vouching for where you were.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. It's like multiple people are saying he was there. No.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it's not like he's caught on camera at a store. You know, it's not like he clocked in at work. You know, there are some varying degrees of alibis.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you know, for me, the worst is, well, I was at home, but I live alone, so there's really nobody who can verify it. And then, you know, a step above that is someone, your mom, your girlfriend, whoever, verifying that you were with them all night long.

[Mike Gibson]

And you've used that one many times.

[Mike Ferguson]

I have. I've used you as an alibi many times.

[Mike Gibson]

I've always took up for you, even though I wasn't with you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Both ways. It's happened both ways. Let's not kid ourselves. But, you know, you would want to think that people would tell the truth, wouldn't lie. But as we know, mom's life for sons, wives life for husbands, husband's life or wives. It does happen. Other co workers agreed that John was a terrific guy with no enemies. When the police informed John's girlfriend Tamara of his death, she was devastated. Tamara said she was at a friend's house on the night of December 17th. She spoke to John on the phone at 9:40pm as verified by call records. And you would think, okay, that's not an ironclad alibi, but it's not horrible if it's thought that he was killed right around this time.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because they're talking on the phone. My assumption is you would think they'd be able to figure out where that call was on, on the other end or generated from. And you know, if they're talking on cell phones, unless she's right next to him or somewhere on the street, about ready to strike, probably not her.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think if you're the police, you're probably thinking that. Tamara told investigators that the beginning of their relationship wasn't ideal. They met when John was still married to his ex wife, Kimberly Williams. John left Kimberly to be with Tamara and. And things got a little messy. According to Tamara, the divorce was contentious. And Tamara suggested that perhaps Kimberly wanted to hurt John because they had recently decided they wanted to get married. I mean, a scorn woman can be dangerous.

[Mike Gibson]

Can be dangerous, you know, so when you tell your partner you're leaving them for somebody else, not going to go over great.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Then there's the, the divorce. And then when they find out you're going to marry this woman.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That you left them for. Okay, maybe a motive there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

When the police interviewed Kimberly, they were surprised to hear a completely different story. She said the divorce was amicable, there was no resentment between them, and John was an excellent father to their kids. This wasn't what detectives expected to hear from a woman who supposedly hated John.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you know, maybe she's not being truthful. Or maybe John told Tamara what he thought he. He wanted to tell her. Like, oh, yeah, we're not good. She was nasty to me. And, yeah, sometimes people do that. Right. They try to make that person sound worse than they really are. To make them sound better.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sure. Could it also be that Kimberly, after finding out that he was dead, didn't want to make him look bad? Maybe. I mean, there's. There's a number of possibilities. Kimberly said she was at work on the night of the 17th, and her kids were with her mother. She went straight home after work. Police verified Kimberly's phone records and by interviewing her mother. So through all that, they were able to, you know, verify her alibi. And it's not bad if we're raiding alibis, as we've been doing.

[Mike Gibson]

No, I mean, so it sounds like so far, the people closest to him are in the clear as far as them individually doing something, or at the

[Mike Ferguson]

very least, they have someone vouching for them. Now, could the alibis be a lie? Yeah, but in the case of Kimberly, obviously, people would have known whether she was at work or not.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Her phone records and then her mother vouching for her. It's. It's not just one person. There's a little bit more to it than. Than some of the other ones we've talked about. John's autopsy determined he was shot with a.38 caliber revolver. The examiner found two more bullets in John's torso. They were fired from the same gun, but the shots came from different angles. Investigators wondered if one person fired from three directions or if the same gun was fired by a second shooter.

[Mike Gibson]

That's strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. So either one person moved around while firing shots or fired some of the shots and then handed the gun over to someone else in a different position.

[Mike Gibson]

I think I would lean more to the one person maybe moving around, but, yeah, it could have been a second shooter in there that they toss the gun to and say, you go ahead and shoot a few times now. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, have there been cases where to share blame? People have both, or maybe even more fired shots into someone. Yeah, as kind of. I Don't know what you want to call it, but

[Mike Gibson]

unity of killing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Like you can't, you can't go to the police on me because you did the same thing. We all three or both of us or however many people it, it was.

[Mike Gibson]

And I feel like we've done a case like that in the past.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think we have. I'm not, I'm blanking on which one it was. But on December 19, police did follow up interviews with John's co workers. That was when Bobby Woodson recalled John telling him about a woman who wanted to meet up with him and his nervousness about this meeting. Police found a voicemail on John's work phone from a woman named Vernell who said she planned to meet him at 9:30pm Vernell Jones was a former employee at the David's Bridal Warehouse. One employee recalled a specific incident where Vernell left work. And an hour and a half later, a man showed up in Vernell's car and asked to speak to John. He warned John to stay away from her and then he left.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, don't want to mess around with somebody else's woman.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And you know, if you're the police now, you have to check this out.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure. You do. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She wants to meet him around 9:30. This would be right around the time that Bobby left.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And if they believe that he was killed not long after that or was ambushed not long after Bobby left, that would be about the right time frame.

[Mike Gibson]

It would be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now you have this thought that, well, maybe there's a man who was in her life who was telling John to stay away from her. All right, got to talk about motives. Right? It's all about motive in some of these cases. Police traced the phone number to an insurance company in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Detectives found the woman who the number belonged to. She said it was her extension, but she didn't make the call. Vernell Jones did. Vernell made several phone calls on December 17th. She overheard Vernell telling someone she would meet them between 9:30 and 10. She asked them not to tell anyone she was coming. She also saw Vernell make a phone call to her boyfriend about meeting with a man. And for me, it's the don't tell anyone I'm coming part of that would make me suspicious. And maybe that's part of what was making him so apprehensive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that makes sense. But I, I would definitely be nervous if someone said, hey, I need to meet you at 9:30, but don't tell anybody that I'm coming. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And let's meet. Let's meet in a very secluded spot.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Then you also have this person overhearing her call her boyfriend and talk about the fact that she's meeting up with a man. Well, either she's not trying to keep it a secret and doesn't care if her boyfriend knows about it, or there's a little more to it and he's a. He's a part of whatever's going to happen at this meetup.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, knowing what happens, you kind of think that maybe there's something shady going on there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

That he dies.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think if you're the investigators, you're right now pretty intrigued. Yeah. Definitely some suspicion by these phone calls. The. The idea that this meetup was set to occur. The idea that she's communicating with her boyfriend and wondering if this boyfriend is the man who threatened, you know, John at his workplace.

[Mint Mobile Announcer]

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[Kiana]

I'm Kiana, and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like, I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free [e-mail] A Dog's Love

[Mike Ferguson]

letter to his squeaky avocado.

[Jerry]

Dearest squeaky avocado, my heart yearns to chew thee. Alas, I've devoured a small action figure and have taken ill, unable to partake in our jubilant squeakings. Worry not, as I am on the mend and Lemonade pet insurance covered 90% of the veterinarian's cost. I recommend all the cats and dogs of the land. Get a'@lemonade.com pet soon my tummy will be unburdened and we shall frolic once more.

[Mike Ferguson]

Your Jerry Vernell was quickly becoming the prime suspect, so police started digging into her background. She was a singer who dreamed of making a bit. Brunel and her sisters formed a girl group called Surprise, in which Vernell was the lead singer.

[Mike Gibson]

Are you gonna see at the perform tonight?

[Mike Ferguson]

Surprise. No, you can tell me. Go ahead and know. Yeah, I'm not going.

[Mike Gibson]

So you don't need to leave it a surprise. Just tell me.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's like a bad Abbot and Costello routine. As she booked more gigs, she started missing work and, you know, this band was kind of popular locally. Right. It took him a while to get gigs. And so for that reason, Vernell had to get a 9 to 5 job. That job was at David's Bridal. But when you get more gigs and you start missing work, well, eventually you're going to get fired. And she did get fired from David's Bridal. Vernell eventually started dating her manager, Kenneth Burno. And Kenneth also had an interesting background.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

He attended a performing arts high school. A few choir students were chosen to be part of a group called Unique Attractions. They went to churches around the city making a name for themselves. They even sang for music executive Michael Bivens, who changed their name to Boys to Men.

[Mike Gibson]

Boys to Men.

[Mike Ferguson]

How about that?

[Mike Gibson]

Abc bbd.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's good. When Kenneth was supposed to sign his contract, he found out his girlfriend was pregnant and decided to leave the music industry for a more stable career. That was a horrible decision. I, I hate to, you know, bag on people, but that's like the guy who sold his, his Walmart stock worth about $3,000 because he needed a new riding lawnmower.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And today that stock would be, like, worth tens to $20 million. I forget. They have a, A, a thing at the headquarters of Walmart.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

About the world's most expensive tractor.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

That would be rough.

[Mike Ferguson]

It would be.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But obviously, you know, Boys to Men was a, it was a, A big group.

[Mike Gibson]

It was, it was.

[Mike Ferguson]

Big group back in our day, especially.

[Mike Gibson]

Had several hit songs they did.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know if they're still together or they still perform sometimes.

[Mike Gibson]

Men to Men.

[Mike Ferguson]

Men to older men.

[Mike Gibson]

I crack myself up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Men to elderly men.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. Dads to grandpa's.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, Something.

[Mike Gibson]

Something like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

But they have to be our age at the very least, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I seen David Lee Roth out there still performing, and Rod Stewart and I think I saw a video of Frankie Valli. It looked like a. Like he was a ghost.

[Mike Ferguson]

Were you about ready to say a ghost?

[Mike Gibson]

It didn't even look believable. Yeah, like.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you know, Rod Stewart was performing at Caesar's palace when we were there. I heard for Crime Con. Yeah. And he had to cancel his show due to some health issue.

[Mike Gibson]

I just saw something the other day where he was performing and he got. Had to get stopped and go on oxygen for a little bit.

[Mike Ferguson]

Man's 145 years old, man. No, I'm just kidding. But I mean, he's, he's up there.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, sometimes you just got to retire.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and that's the thing, right. With me, it's not like he doesn't have more money than he can ever spend.

[Mike Gibson]

It should be set pretty well.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I think for a lot of people, you know, the idea of walking away from the spotlight is probably a little tough when you've had it and been in it for 60 years. I mean, how long has he been performing?

[Mike Gibson]

Probably 80. But yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, sure. Yeah. It probably feeds you, you know, feeds

[Mike Ferguson]

the soul, ego and all of that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I saw another thing where TIFFANY from the 80s, you know, I can't remember the song.

[Mike Ferguson]

All Tiffany.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. Still out there performing. Small crowds, but, you know, whatever.

[Mike Ferguson]

How about that?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kenneth's brother Lamar said he wanted to go to college and get a degree so he would always have something to fall back on.

[Mike Gibson]

It's not. Not bad thinking.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. It's really hard to fault somebody for that. Now, in hindsight, right, you can say, if you had a chance to be part of Boys to Men, well, that was a big mistake.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it's really hard to say, oh, that's a bad idea to go back and get your education, because for most of us, that's what will carry us on through to retirement.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's kind of like when the athletes go to college, you say you should finish and get your degree before you move to the next level. And a lot of them don't, you know, especially in basketball because it's so lucrative for them to move up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. They're going to make millions and millions of dollars.

[Mike Gibson]

For how long, though, when they.

[Mike Ferguson]

Doesn't matter. Like, money you can never get now. They do. Some of them go through it like crazy and end up bankrupt, which I'll never understand, but. But a lot of them do leave early, but they go back and get their degree. Get their degree anyway, like during the off season.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I've seen that. Kenneth regretted his decision to leave Unique Attraction, but he decided he would get back into the music industry as a manager. He saw potential in Vernell Jones and thought he could help her become famous. Kenneth was still married when he started managing Vernell, but. But he took care of Vernell financially. His marriage eventually ended, and he and Vernell dated for five years.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm guessing your marriage probably would end if you're taking care of another woman financially.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, he might have said, you know, this is an investment. I think she's going to be a big star. But, you know, when you work with someone closely, things can happen.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

When detectives Asked Vernell to come in for an interview. She brought Kenneth with her. She explained that she met John at the warehouse and they dated on and off casually. She asked him to get a drink with her on December 17th because she was trying to make Kenneth jealous, but she backed out at the last minute.

[Mike Gibson]

Sometimes guys do get jealous when they see the woman having a drink with somebody else.

[Mike Ferguson]

And let's be honest, sometimes women do things to make us jealous on purpose because we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're not paying enough attention, whatever it

[Mike Gibson]

is, or find somebody else that will give them that attention for a little bit.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. You went down a. A different path there, but yeah, a little dark. I got you. She said she was with Kenneth the entire night except for about a half hour period during nap time. She stayed at home. Detectives took note of Kenneth's demeanor during the interview. He acted sympathetic towards Vernell, but really he seemed interested in knowing the details of the crime, which is, I guess, from a true crime fan. Yeah, that wouldn't be all that odd.

[Mike Gibson]

They got give me the details. I want to hear them.

[Mike Ferguson]

But to investigators, that might seem strange if they're looking at you and all you seem to want to know about is the details, especially if you want to know what they know. Because that's a red flag.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

We all know that.

[Mike Gibson]

I kind of wonder, you know, in the last, I'd say 10 years, maybe 10 to 15 years, maybe a little bit longer. You would know better than I now that true crime is as popular as it is. I wonder how that has either hindered or help investigators now when they talk to people of interest, witnesses, it's like if. Are people jumping in with their own theories and.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, on the one hand, I would think with the plethora of true crime content.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And let's not forget the shows, the NCIS and the, you know, all of those types of forensic shows and csi. I would think perpetrators would be a lot more knowledgeable.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Today about what to do and what not to do. But, you know, getting back to your point, I also think that there is so much interest in true crime cases that, yeah, I think people are trying to get details and they didn't have anything to do with the crime. They're just fascinated.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And they just want to know where maybe as in, you know, the 60s or 70s, if you did that, man, they were. They really thought you.

[Mike Gibson]

They were locked in.

[Mike Ferguson]

You were locked in. You, you did something. So they're. They're kind of gauging his demeanor. Vernell was released due to a lack of evidence, but she did remain on police radar. Police talked to Vernell's family to see if she had a history of violence with her romantic partners. They provided a list of her ex boyfriends, one of whom was Ronald Humphrey, a Philadelphia firefighter. Police interviewed Ronald on December 21, 2001. Investigators asked if Vernell was ever violent with him. To their surprise, Ronald responded, that bitch shot me. And I. I know it's not funny.

[Mike Gibson]

No, it's not.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it does make you laugh because it's such a strange answer.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, he could have said, yeah, she was a violent person. She actually shot me once.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But he just came out and said so. He and Vernell secretly dated between July and August 2001. Kenneth Bruno found out and confronted Ronald at the fire station in front of his co workers. He had no contact with her until October 5, 2001. She called him several times out of the blue and was, quote, begging him to hook up.

[Mike Gibson]

Baby, I need it. Let's get together.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, here's the other thing. There's a lot of people meeting in secret here. There is, in all of these relationships, very strange. It is. So he agreed to meet her that evening. They went to a bar, then to a secluded area of Fairmont Park. He said Vernell performed oral sex on him. She then said she had to go to the bathroom. She left his vehicle and returned a couple minutes later. She opened the door and shot him with a revolver. The bullet hit his upper right arm.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's a different type of fantasy.

[Mike Ferguson]

I. I think that's no one's fantasy. The first part is, don't get me wrong, but the second part is not.

[Mike Gibson]

This is a strange role play.

[Mike Ferguson]

People are into some strange things, but getting shot after fellatio, I don't believe is is one of them. Did you say, I did drop that bomb on you? So the Philadelphia PD investigated the shooting. At the time, Ronald didn't tell the police that Vernell shot him because he was in a relationship with someone else. And that's the problem with sneaking around with people.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You can't be completely honest because that person's going to find out, and then that person's going to want to shoot you. You've already been shot.

[Mike Gibson]

Just stay with the person you're with. You know, Is it that hard just to be with the person?

[Mike Ferguson]

It is for some people. You know, some people Have a hard time with that. Detectives noticed that details of his story were similar to the circumstances surrounding John Davis's murder. Police also knew John was shot with a revolver. And we said it right, specifically a.38 caliber. Investigators recovered the bullet from Ronald's truck and compared it to the bullets found in John's body. They came from the same.38 caliber revolver.

[Mike Gibson]

We have the gun being used, and

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's what's important. It's not just the fact that Both shootings involved a.38 caliber revolver. They were the same.38 caliber revolver. On December 23, 2001, Vernell was charged with third degree murder and conspiracy for the death of John Davis. And you know, this ballistic match is fascinating, man. I'm telling you, the forensics behind. We talked about it in our tcat, or we will talk about it in the one coming out on Sunday. We've already recorded it. But you know, the forensics played a big part in that one as well. And not tcat our Patreon Patreon episode. I get confused. We're recording so many different episodes. But forensics played a big part in that one as well. And I still can't help but think, man, if I had to do it over and I could go back and tell my 19 year old self first, I'd be like, hey, there's going to be this thing called podcasts. Get in on that on the ground floor even earlier than we did. But short of that, I'd say you should probably look at going into some type of forensics because I think you'd really like that.

[Mike Gibson]

I also think you'd go back and tell your 19 year old self, keep that Walmart stock. Don't buy that tractor.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Also buy Amazon, Google. That'd be like Biff Tan, whatever his name, Biff. And back to the future.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

So she's charged with third degree murder. Montgomery County Deputy D A Risa Furman described Vernell as a modern day black widow. And I'm telling you, if you're a woman, you do not want to be called a black widow.

[Mike Gibson]

It's not a good thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, you are a stone cold murderer. That's what black widows are. On January 10, 2002, she was charged with aggravated assault for the shooting of Ronald Humphrey. When Vernell was arrested, Kenneth called various lawyers to see if they would take her case. She called or he called and visited Vernell often and wrote her letters. At first, detectives thought he was a loving boyfriend. But they started to suspect that he was coaching her on what she should tell the police. They believed Kenneth was involved in some way, but they needed evidence to prove it.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, if you go back to, you know, what they thought about the shooting, they thought either somebody shot him in the back of the head and then moved the gun around and shot, or there was a second shooter that maybe the gun got tossed to and said, you know, now you. You shoot them here and there. Yeah, maybe this is where they're headed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which still seems strange. I mean, why not just have two different guns? But.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I agree with you. Why, why just take one and toss it around? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pass it around to someone else to do shooting. Unless, like I said, it was some kind of. It was more symbolic. Yeah, as in, like, we're in this together. I'm doing it, but you got to do it too, type of deal.

[Mike Gibson]

Both put our hand on the trigger together, but we can't with this gun, so we have to pass it back and forth. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Something. Something to that effect.

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My name is Shannon Maldonado. I'm the founder of Yaoi, a gift shop. From the lens of artists and handmade objects, I chose Shopify because when I was testing other platforms, it was definitely one of the most user friendly. It was important to me to think about where we would be in the future. All of the tools for reading your sales, like planning inventory, they're just right there on your dashboard. For anyone starting a small business, the biggest thing I can tell you, it doesn't have to be perfect. Shopify can help you build upon it. Start your free trial on shopify.com youm

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[Mike Ferguson]

Eventually, Kenneth's visits and calls dropped off. Brunel's family informed her that he was cheating on her. Doesn't surprise me because apparently no one in this story can be faithful to one person. No, everybody is cheating on someone with at least one person. Sometimes multiple people. So why is that a. A bad idea though, Gibbs? Cheating in this specific instance, if you're Kenneth.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I mean, for Kenneth, it's not. Look, you're in a love triangle, or not even a love triangle. What would you call that? Just a hot Mess.

[Mike Ferguson]

The whole thing is a hot mess. But if he had anything to do

[Mike Gibson]

with could be used against him.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, she's not going to have the slightest pause now.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You start cheating on this woman, you stop calling her and you stop visiting her, and she's got something on you.

[Mike Gibson]

She's coming after you.

[Mike Ferguson]

She's coming after you because you've done, you know, ticked her off.

[Mike Gibson]

So you think you'd want to, like, keep close to her and be like,

[Mike Ferguson]

baby, oh, yeah, I know you.

[Mike Gibson]

Doesn't look good for you. I'm here for you, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not real smart.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, we don't know that he had anything to do with it, but police think he does.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then Vernell finally did agree to talk to the police. On August 21, 2002, she decided to take a plea bargain. She pleaded guilty to aggravated assault for the Ronald Humphrey shooting and received a 10 year sentence. As part of her plea deal, she gave the detailed statement. In her statement, Vernell described how Kenneth was a jealous, controlling boyfriend. He controlled who she could talk to, where she could go, and how much she could spend. She had to call him several times a day to check in. She wasn't allowed to have a pager. And let's remember this is like early 2000s, so pagers were a big deal. She could only use a phone that Kenneth paid for so that he could keep track of all of her calls. She had to give him every check she made. He was also physically and sexually abusive. He punched her in the face and forced her to get a Tattoo that said 100% K's.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow, man, this rough. That is rough.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, you are. You're making money and every time you get paid, you're essentially handing the entire check to him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he's forcing you to get a tattoo.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you have a similar tattoo that

[Mike Ferguson]

says, you know, Gibby's be 100%.

[Mike Gibson]

100%. I was gonna say your wife's name. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That would be more accurate.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I don't know, just. And then the idea that he's physically sexually abusive doesn't shock me in the slightest.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

With what we've been talking about here.

[Mike Gibson]

And maybe that's why she's seeking little side romances, or can't even call them romances, but side action.

[Mike Ferguson]

Possibly.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Things reached a breaking point in the summer of 2001 when Kenneth accused her of sleeping with his cousin. He worried what his friends and family would think if they knew he stayed with a woman who had been with Another family member.

[Mike Gibson]

Now we got the family involved.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I would say for most people, that is probably a deal breaker.

[Mike Gibson]

I would think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, cheating of any kind is. Is usually a deal breaker for many, but having sex with my cousin, you know, we're definitely got to draw the line somewhere. Come on now.

[Mike Gibson]

Really ruins the family reunion.

[Mike Ferguson]

The holiday Thanksgivings are awkward.

[Jerry]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Just family get togethers. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So here's what Kenneth did. He required Vernell to write down all the men he thought she had a sexual relationship with. One of the men on the list was the cousin he accused her of having sex with. The second was another cousin who was on the. The list simply because he knew about Kenneth's suspicion.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I. I'm not sure. Maybe she didn't actually have sex with this cousin, but she. The. He was on the list anyway. The third was a man named Larry Tucker, a former co worker of Vernell's. He never had a sexual relationship with her, but Kenneth thought she did. And this is what was so striking to me. He didn't ask Vernell for her to write a list.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Of the people she had been with.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

He wrote a list of the people he thought she had been with.

[Mike Gibson]

Who I think you've been with, which is so strange. Strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

And the list has two of his cousins on there.

[Mike Gibson]

I always saw you look at what's his name. I know you had to be with

[Mike Ferguson]

him, but I do think he's got some very serious control issues. At the very least, I think more disturbingly, very abusive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Both physically and, you know, emotionally.

[Mike Gibson]

It'd be difficult to be with somebody like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Gibson]

Very difficult.

[Mike Ferguson]

The other names on the list were Ronald Humphries and John Davis.

[Mike Gibson]

There you go.

[Mike Ferguson]

There I go. There you go.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of telling.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, it is. When those people, one of them ended up dead. The other, I think, was there was an attempt on his life.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

At the very least. Kenneth gave Vernell an ultimatum. Kill these men or their relationship was over. He used the list to create a written contract where the two of them would kill the five individuals.

[Mike Gibson]

See, for me, when someone says, either kill these men or this is over, I'd be like, ah, okay. Finally, it's over. Bye.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Bye.

[Mike Ferguson]

Has that happened to you before?

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, you said no.

[Mike Gibson]

I said if that was me.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I don't. I think you left out the word if.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which made it sound as though you have experienced this before, which I thought was very strange.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh. I'm just saying if I was in that situation, I'd be like, well, then, bye.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Bye.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, I've been wanting to get out of this thing, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's the thing. I don't think she did.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I can only, you know, kind of theorize why that might be, you know, Was his control so strong over her?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That, you know, he essentially was running every facet of her life. He was, if you think about it, control. And. Or maybe she was scared that if the relationship ended, he might do something really bad to her.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because now she's no longer, you know, a part of his life. He doesn't need her. You know, you get where I'm going there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, the other thing is, too. Maybe she really believed that he was going to help her career. Well, maybe, you know, I just gotta hang on with this guy for a little bit more. I think he'll. He's gonna make it happen.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe. But I do think, and Vernell has said this, she was afraid of him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's one of the reasons she went along with what he told her to do. When Kenneth talked about anyone on the list, he used the phrase, dead men tell no tales.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Our.

[Mike Gibson]

Our matey.

[Mike Ferguson]

Exactly.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You cracked me up.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly what a pirate would say.

[Mike Ferguson]

Ronald Humphrey was chosen as the first victim. Vernell called him and arranged the meeting. Kenneth drove her to the scene and waited nearby in his car. He was angry and beat her. After the failed murder attempt, he yelled at her for going to a bar beforehand, saying, if you didn't have a drink, maybe things would have gone the way we planned.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So Kenneth was angry because it didn't go the way he wanted it to. He didn't really have total control over the situation. But, you know, we know that he wanted these individuals, you know, killed because they were messing with his woman.

[Mike Ferguson]

Were they messing with her at the time, or did he just believe or know that she. She had been with him at some point in the past? It's almost like some of these guys he wants killed retroactively.

[Mike Gibson]

You're right. I mean, it's. It's almost like a severe jealousy thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Like jealousy of the past. Yeah, that's. That's kind of striking to me, but, I mean, no doubt you can tell that Kenneth is a really controlling, abusive person. Now, I'm not giving any slack to. To Vernell here. She did go through some stuff. I. I have no doubt of that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But she also killed a number of people, so.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's going to be hard to give her Too much slack. But I do think, in a way, she was controlled, intimidated, abused by this guy Kenneth. So I do have to say that Kenneth said he would finish the job after they dealt with John Davis this time, he said he would fire the fatal shot. On the night of John's murder, Vernell and Kenneth waited for John in the parking lot of the David's Bridal Warehouse. Kenneth got in the back of John's van, and she waited in the shadows. When John and Vernell got into the van, Kenneth shot John in the head. He then forced Vernell to shoot John twice with the same gun.

[Mike Gibson]

There we go. We kind of talked about that scenario.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Both of them firing the gun. And I think, you know, as we talked about, I think the reason, even though they didn't come out and say it, it was kind of symbolic in a way. As far as we're both in this. We're both, you know, firing shots. We. We're both killing this person. But I want to talk about, you know, she's hiding in the shadows. She's going to meet with John, and she gets in, and Kenneth fires a shot from the back of the van. Do you have any idea how loud that would be? A.38 caliber fired in a small van.

[Mike Gibson]

Very loud.

[Mike Ferguson]

I. It would definitely not be good on the senses and the eardrums and all of that. But then to hand the gun to her and say, hey, here you go, and she shoots him twice. After the murder, Kenneth and Vernell went to her apartment and had sex. Because that's what you do after you commit a heinous murder.

[Mike Gibson]

They're amped up, I guess.

[Mike Ferguson]

The next morning, he kissed her and said, one down, four to go. Okay, I'm telling you, man, this is a wild, wild tail.

[Mike Gibson]

But I think about before John left the warehouse, you know, he had reservations about meeting up with whoever he was on the phone with. And now we know why. Most likely it was because he knew that something good wasn't going to come from this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and that's why, you know, you're kind of almost asking the question, well, why did he go through with it if he was so apprehensive? But, you know, there's no way for us to know. On December 17, 2002, Kenneth Brno was arrested and charged with homicide, criminal conspiracy, possessing an instrument of crime, and unsworn falsification to authorities. The criminal complaint noted that Kenneth and was very jealous, controlling, and manipulative. And there's really no way to dispute that. I don't Think with everything that we know about him. His sense of shame over staying with a woman who was involved with other men motivated him to compile a hit list of men he believed Vernell had relationships with. Now, I know there are jealous people, both men and women. This is taking jealousy to a whole nother level that I don't know I've ever even heard of.

[Mike Gibson]

It really is. I mean, to say, tell me who you had relationship. Sexual relationship with five years before you met me and be jealous over that. It's like it was before I met you. Or you be jealous of.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not. Don't tell me. I'll just write down the names of who I think you met.

[Mike Gibson]

You met.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, including two of my cousins. It's just. I mean, I know it's not a laughing matter because we're talking about murder, but some of this stuff is so off the wall it is, that you almost can't help but laugh. If detectives had not linked vernow to the two incidents from 2001, the killing would have continued until the list was finished.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's true. Right? I mean, they had that list, and he was bound and determined to make sure that it got completed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And the thing is, Kenneth's arrest was largely based on Vernell's statements.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She confirmed that in both cases, he was at or near the crime scene, and he provided the weapon. And let's not forget, the only reason she really came forward was because he stopped calling her, he stopped visiting her, and he started seeing someone else. Detectives didn't have the actual hit list. It was described as a piece of paper upon which Vernell wrote a contract agreeing to kill five people. It contained only the first initial of the five intended victims. DA Bruce Castor also said Kenneth was abusive towards Vernell and played on her insecurity and love for him to get her to commit crime crimes. Castor added, clearly, she's criminally culpable here, but she's not the driving force behind this contract to commit the series of murders.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's pretty correct.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And that's the way I. I thought of it, too. Again, she went through some. Some pretty horrible stuff, I believe.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

At the hands of this Kenneth guy. And if not for him, maybe she never kills anybody.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably not.

[Mike Ferguson]

But she did sign a contract saying she would kill five people. The following day, December 18, Vernell accepted a plea deal for third degree murder and conspiracy. She received a reduced sentence of 17 to 35 years. And, you know, I don't hate it. I'm not jumping up and down mad about that. They had to have her cooperation, Right. To get Kenneth. So you're gonna have to make a deal. That's just how it works. She is gonna spend a large chunk of her life in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Just like you said. I'm not hating it. It's not a. It's not the best outcome, but it's not the worst either. It's split right down the middle.

[Mike Ferguson]

We've seen way work we have. Right. Two years time served. We've seen all kinds of strange things. For murder. On April 26, 2004, jurors found Kenneth Brno guilty of first degree murder, unsworn falsification to authorities and criminal conspiracy. He was acquitted of possessing an instrument of crime.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which I thought was strange.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

How could you do all the other stuff if he didn't have the gun?

[Mike Gibson]

Right. But hey. But they got him on the other things anyway.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. His defense argued there was no scientific evidence to link him to John Davis's death. The murder weapon was never found, and the fingerprints at the scene had been wiped out. Additionally, the hit list was never recovered. With the help of Vernell's testimony, the jury sided with the prosecution. Now, maybe it was. They could get Vernell because she was involved in Ronald's.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Case.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

The same gun was used, thereby making her involved.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe they just couldn't tie the gun to him. But if they thought he was part of the murder. I don't know, it just still seems strange to me. How could he not have possessed the gun yet use the gun that they know was used by both of them to.

[Mike Gibson]

To kill John.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kill John Davis.

[Kiana]

Kill.

[Mike Ferguson]

On September 28, 2004, Kenneth Brno was sentenced to life in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

Where he needs to be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I agree. You know, Vernell Jones was paroled in 2018 and has not spoken publicly. So, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, although Vernell Jones was involved in the murder of John Davis and the shooting of Ronald Humphrey, the killing was definitely orchestrated by Kenneth, her abusive, controlling boyfriend. Had she not been arrested, though, it's very possible that there would have been five victims.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you know, I said it earlier, I'm not giving her a pass at all. No, I think she got a fair sentence. Sounds like she's already done her time. And it sounds like she did the minimum 17 years.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She got out in 2018. I think she was arrested in 2001. So she did about 17 years.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it could have went worse for her. I Mean, if she would have actually been successful on the night with Humphreys. Right. Instead of getting him in the arm, maybe it would have got him in the chest and, you know, it'd be a different story.

[Mike Ferguson]

It would be. I also think, you know, the prosecutors, they needed to, you know, cut a deal to get her testimony against Kenneth. And they probably also took into account to some degree, maybe it was just in the sentencing phase, you know, the judge or whatever, the extent of the control that he had over her in orchestrating this thing and kind of pushing her to do it. Now, she still has to take responsibility for her actions.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep, she does.

[Mike Ferguson]

I fully believe that. But I also believe that without Kenneth, I. I don't think she does the killing.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't believe so either.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think she shoots anybody. But there's no guarantee that she does.

[Mike Gibson]

No, but I think it was definitely driven by. By his actions.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's just a wild case because I get. People are jealous. I'm not a jealous person at all. I never have been. But I know that a lot of people are. What I don't understand. It'd be one thing if your partner is currently talking to someone or you find out that they're currently cheating with someone, but to go back in time and be jealous about people who she or he may have been with before you guys, that really seems like jealousy to the extreme.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. You kind of hard a jealous person.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, not at all.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, your wife has had a pool boy for how long? You guys only have a pool.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know, but you're like, I got. I got to pay that guy every month.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's just, you know, like, what

[Mike Ferguson]

are you even doing around here? No, but it. I don't know. Again, you know, to try to get into the minds of some of these people, it's so hard because we just don't think the way that they do.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, even if I was a jealous person, even if I found out that my wife was cheating on me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wouldn't hatch a plan to kill the guy.

[Mike Gibson]

No, you'd have me do it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, that would still be me hatching. Hatching the plan.

[Mike Gibson]

You passed me a note. See? Hatch's plan.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hatches plan. I. I just. I just wouldn't do it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I would just say goodbye, say, hey, you know, we go our separate ways or whatever, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life in jail.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No.

[Mike Gibson]

Not for something like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why am I going to be happy about it? Obviously not. But do I need to kill someone?

[Mike Gibson]

No, no.

[Mike Ferguson]

There's just no reason to. I certainly don't need to kill people that, you know, a partner was with five years ago or 10 years ago or however long it's been that. That's the part that really blows me away about this case.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I really think it gives you some insight into this guy's mindset. He was just locked in on jealousy and control and abuse and.

[Mike Gibson]

And let me tell you, right now, you have a couple cousins out there that are saying, oh, man, I'm glad you feel that way. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, probably also have a couple cousins. Maybe you've got some cousins over on your side of the family, some cousins on other people's sides of the family. But that's it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike Gabby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

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