Arlis Perry

Summary

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True Crime All The Time Episode Summary

Case: Arlis Perry

Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson
Episode: 507
Date: June 18, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson delve into the 1974 murder of Arlis Perry, a 19-year-old newlywed found brutally murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church. The hosts trace the initial investigation, decades of uncertainty, and final resolution through DNA evidence that identified the perpetrator more than 40 years later. The episode blends detailed case facts with candid, conversational commentary, and explores not just how but why the killing — long shrouded in mystery and rumor — occurred.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Arlis Perry & the Case Background

• Victim: Arlis Perry, 19, described as a shy, religious woman from North Dakota.
• Context: Married to Bruce Perry, moved to California for his Stanford studies, recently started a new life.
  • "You just kind of look at them, they're young newlyweds, but it seems like they've got a pretty bright future ahead of them." – Mike Ferguson [05:38]
• Murder Details: Killed in Stanford Memorial Church, October 12, 1974, after a minor argument with her husband.

2. The Night of the Murder

• Sequence of Events:
  • Minor quarrel about tire pressure, Arlis went to the church alone.
  • Bruce searched for her after midnight, alerted Stanford police.
  • At 5:45am, security guard Stephen Crawford found Arlis’ body.
  • Key forensic findings:
    • Ice pick to the back of the head, signs of strangulation.
    • Sexual assault; ritualistic positioning with altar candles.
    • Semen found, partial palm print, forced exit from inside the church.
  • "This is such a strange scene. Not to mention the fact that it's brutal and it's sad, but it's also very strange." – Mike Ferguson [08:58]

3. The Investigation & Evidence (1970s-80s)

• Police Steps:
  • Multiple suspects interviewed, including Bruce Perry and security staff.
  • Lack of DNA technology limited progress; only blood typing and fingerprints available.
  • FBI generated a profile: white male, 17–22, probable loner, possibly religious, may have taken souvenir (her glasses were missing).
  • Ritual/satanic theories floated, driven partly by 1980s moral panic.
• False Leads:
  • Serial killers (David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy) and satanic cults wrongly suspected.
  • Notoriety of the case fostered rumors, including alleged cult connections and the infamous "Ultimate Evil" book hypothesis.

4. Public and Victim Family Impact

• Campus Fear:
  • Violent murder inside a church made students feel unsafe.
  • "You don't expect that to happen at a church." – Mike Ferguson [13:18]
• Victim’s Family:
  • Bruce Perry quickly cleared as a suspect – fully cooperative.
  • Arlis’ family endured decades without resolution; her mother heartbroken killer was not caught before her husband’s death.

5. Breakthrough: Modern DNA & the Resolution

• DNA Advances:
  • Cold case detectives submitted evidence for DNA testing in 2016.
  • Semen on victim's clothing definitively matched Stephen Crawford, the security guard who had discovered the body.
• Confrontation & Crawford's Suicide:
  • Police approached Crawford with a warrant in 2018; he shot himself.
  • "As police arrived at his apartment...Stephen Crawford shot himself in the head." – Mike Ferguson [41:09]
  • His reluctance to give DNA or take a polygraph as a guard had raised suspicions for years.

6. Aftermath & Analysis

• No chance for trial:

  • His suicide foreclosed courtroom justice, causing mixed feelings for victims' families.
  • “Sadly...there’s not a, I guess what you would call a resolution in this case, because there’s no legal justice for Arlis and her family. But we know who did it.” – Mike Ferguson [55:49]

• Speculation on Motive:

  • Unclear why Crawford killed her; possible sexual compulsion rather than ritual motive.
  • Hosts contest ritual theories often cited in media and focus on lust as the more plausible motive.
  • "I think for many people [the 'why'] is also very important." – Mike Ferguson [49:20]

• Crawford’s Background:

  • Air Force veteran, demoted from Stanford police to security, resentful, later caught stealing artifacts from the university.
  • Known as a loner and chronic liar (“the prevaricator” in his square-dance group).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Unsolved Cases

  • "You cannot say that any case is unsolvable...we've seen a lot of them be solved that frankly many people thought never would be." – Mike Ferguson [02:53]

• On the Murder Scene:

  • "It's almost reminds me of a scene from one of those Dan Brown books." – Mike Gibson [09:16]
  • "You know, you always think, if I need a safe haven, I can go to a church.” – Mike Gibson [13:13]

• On Serial Killers Taking Credit:

  • "The other thing we know about serial killers is they like to take credit for things sometimes that they didn't do, especially when they're already in...prison." – Mike Ferguson [31:24]

• On DNA’s Power:

  • "That's the power of DNA...the technology just keeps evolving and getting better and better." – Mike Ferguson [38:41]
  • "I love that...all these people that thought they got away with something ... see the police officer at the door ... Oh, shit." – Mike Gibson [39:12]

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Noteworthy Timestamps

• Main Case Introduction: [02:29]–[03:31]
• Murder Details & Scene: [05:46]–[09:16]
• Investigation Challenges: [10:01]–[17:09]
• Profile & Satanic Panic: [23:55]–[30:49]
• Break in the Case/DNA Submission: [36:30]–[38:56]
• Crawford's Suicide and Closing the Case: [40:58]–[44:30]
• Family Reaction & Lasting Questions: [47:19]–[49:20]
• Suspect's Background & Personality: [50:44]–[54:25]
• Conclusion: [55:02]–[56:57]

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Final Thoughts

The murder of Arlis Perry horrified and mystified both the Stanford University community and the broader public for decades. Despite dead-ends, unfruitful theories, and technological limits, the case demonstrates both the tenacity of investigators and the transformative capability of DNA science. The personal effects on all involved — victims’ families, investigators, and even the suspect’s own circle — are candidly discussed, underscoring both resolution and lingering sorrow.

"But then he got to live his life for a very long time... he was free to do whatever he wanted. And he shouldn't have been, because he killed someone." – Mike Ferguson [56:33]

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For listeners seeking a thorough, conversational, and empathetic recounting of a notorious cold case — with all the twists, rumors, and forensic breakthroughs — this episode is both informative and compelling.

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 507 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey. I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

Doing great. You and I took a week off, we got rested, but I went to Jamaica, my daughter got married. You went to Greece.

[Mike Gibson]

I did.

[Mike Ferguson]

Got engaged and got engaged.

[Mike Gibson]

I know.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we had good times but also, you know, got a little rest and relaxation in and now we're ready to go for the rest of the year.

[Mike Gibson]

That's right.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time? I Am we're talking about Arlis Perry. Arlis K. Perry was a 19 year old newlywed who was murdered inside Stanford Memorial Church on the university's campus. Her murder was unsolved for more than 40 years before police named a perpetrator.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a long time.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. But you know, you and I have a channel where we do unsolved cases and at the end we normally talk about, you know, what is the likelihood that a case will be solved. And there are a lot of factors to that. Oftentimes if there's no DNA, there's nothing. There's no evidence to speak of. Well, we're a little bit less optimistic, true, about a case being solved, but, you know, you cannot say that any case is unsolvable because we've seen a lot of them be solved that frankly, many people thought never would be.

[Mike Gibson]

That's very true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Arlis was born on February 22, 1955. She was the youngest of three children. She grew up in Bismar, North Dakota, where she met her future husband, Bruce Perry. The two were high school sweethearts.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, the old high school sweethearts. Got a couple of those that you just got married?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. My daughter and her husband, they started dating. It was 10 years ago. They were freshmen. Sophomores in high school. Yeah, it's just, it's amazing because you've watched her grow up.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you've been around him for 10 years now, and he's been part of the family for a long time. Bruce told the Peninsula Times Tribune that Arlis was a quiet, shy person who liked to sew, cook and read. They were both religious and like to take walks and go to church to pray, sometimes late at night. You ever been to North Dakota?

[Mike Gibson]

I've been to South Dakota. I didn't get to North.

[Mike Ferguson]

Was that the question I asked? Because I don't believe it was. You've been to Texas? I've been to New Mexico, yeah. So the answer is no.

[Mike Gibson]

Texas Roadhouse? No. I'm just joking.

[Mike Ferguson]

So the answer is no? I. I've never. I've never been to North Dakota either. Actually. I've never been to South Dakota either. If you're wondering.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you should go. We have some good listeners in both north and South Dakota that came to the crime con.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

So they'd be happy to have you over there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe, maybe not. You're making assumptions.

[Mike Gibson]

I do that a lot.

[Mike Ferguson]

On August 17, 1974, Arlis and Bruce got married in North Dakota. In late August, they moved to California. Bruce was a sophomore pre med Student at Stanford. The newlyweds lived in Quillen hall in Escondido Village. Arlis got a job as a receptionist at a local law firm. So, I mean, you just kind of look at them, they're young newlyweds, but it seems like they've got a. A pretty bright future ahead of them.

[Mike Gibson]

Seems like it.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, Bruce is pre med. I. I think they have a plan. Yeah, Is what it seems like to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Gotta have a plan.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. But Arlis and Bruce were married for just under two months before she died. Arlis was murdered on the night of October 12, 1974. Around 11:30pm she and Bruce got into an argument about their car's tire pressure. Police deem this argument insignificant.

[Mike Gibson]

Just trying to imagine what that conversation would be like. You know, was it him or her that was upset that the tire had too little or too much pressure?

[Mike Ferguson]

I wanted it 28. She wants it at 32.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

We meet in the middle at 30, maybe. I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Damn it. How many times I have to tell you? 30 psi. Why did you push it over that?

[Mike Ferguson]

But I think, Gibbs, you know, anybody who is in a relationship has ever been in a relationship. You know, there are some arguments that really are petty. They don't, you know, they're not what you would think of as subjects that would require an argument. But one breaks out. It just happens.

[Mike Gibson]

I have been in arguments that I have stopped the argument. Argument and said, why are we arguing about this again?

[Mike Ferguson]

Because it doesn't matter. It makes no sense.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Arlis told her husband that she wanted to pray alone inside Stanford Memorial Church. And so they parted ways. And maybe that's probably not unusual, right? You get into an argument, all right, let's take a break, cool off. Everybody go their separate ways. And that could just be different places of the house. In this case, she wants to go to church. But Bruce became worried around midnight, and he started walking around the campus looking for his wife. He called the Stanford police to report her missing. At 3am Officers from the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office went to the church and reported that all the outer doors were locked. Okay, what do you make of that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, sounds like no one's getting in. Nobody's getting out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. Or you could, if you're the police, maybe think, well, maybe she came, but it was locked and couldn't get in. So now we gotta start our, you know, or change our search to somewhere else.

[Mike Gibson]

Widen that perimeter.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe. At 5:45am on October 13th, campus security guard Stephen Crawford Found Arlis's body in the church's east transept near the altar. She was face up with her hands folded across her chest. An ice pick was sticking out of the back of her head, but the handle had broken off and was missing.

[Mike Gibson]

This is in a church?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds like brutal. You know, someone coming at you probably

[Mike Ferguson]

didn't see it coming to the back of the head. I think that's a good assumption.

[Mike Gibson]

And how hard do you have to hit somebody with an ice pick to break the handle off?

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know, but ice picks are pretty dangerous if you think about they are, how sharp they are. There were also signs of strangulation. Arlis was nude from the waist down and had been sexually assaulted. A three foot long altar candle was inserted into her body.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

And another was placed between her breasts. Her jeans were arranged across her legs and in a diamond pattern. I mean, this is such a, a strange scene. Not to mention the fact that it's brutal and it's sad, but it's also very strange. It's a strange murder scene.

[Mike Gibson]

It's almost reminds me of a scene from that, One of those Dan Brown books.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Or like seven or, you know, something like that where you have a very. I get where you going with the Dan Brown. Because of the religious. Yeah. Angle. Because this happens in a church. Investigators found semen on a kneeling pillow near the body. A partial palm print was taken from one of the candles. All right, so on the surface, you would think that's some pretty good evidence.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, they are lucky that they have the evidence that they do have because we've done plenty of cases where they don't have a fraction of what this investigator will have.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, it is 1974. Right. So they're limited.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

At least with what they can do with semen. There's no DNA or, you know, or anything like that, so. But we know what that would do today.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

To an investigation. It would. It would mean a lot of things. It doesn't mean that you would automatically be able to solve the case, but you definitely have a leg up. There's no doubt about that. Witnesses saw Arlis inside the church at about 11.35pm Stephen Crawford told the visitors that the church would be closing in 15 minutes. He locked up the building around midnight and he didn't see anyone inside. He rechecked the doors at 2am and they were still locked. So that kind of explains, right, the police go, they had locked the doors to the church, thinking, okay, everybody's left and we're gonna lock it up. Then Stephen returned to the church at 5:45am to open it up for the day and found the west side door open. It had been forced open from the inside.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, so somebody on the inside forced it open to get out of there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. Which tells me maybe they were both locked in there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

At the time that the. The crime occurred.

[Mike Gibson]

Just hiding from when Stephen looked in earlier.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, maybe. Or maybe the crime had already occurred before he locked the doors, but the perpetrator was being quiet.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then didn't realize that he was going to lock the doors. And then at some point figured out, oh, I got to get the heck out of here. So I got to figure out how to force these open. Police told the press that the murder had all the earmarks of a sex crime. That. That doesn't surprise me at all.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Under Sheriff Tom Rosa said they. They discounted reports that the murder was a ritual killing.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it was kind of set up that way.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, I. I could understand why. Maybe you would think that's an angle that I think, at the very least, has to be explored. Like we mentioned, it's a. It's a strange crime scene on top of the fact that it is. Has occurred inside of a church.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, you could go the other angle, too. They made it to look like that to try to throw investigators off.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. Many Stanford students were fearful and said they no longer felt safe on campus. And again, we've talked about it so many times. That's going to happen anytime you have a brutal murder in a community.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, depending on how large the community is. But if you're talking about a campus, and some of the campuses can be large. Right. And have a lot of people. But either way, when you hear that somebody's killed, murdered in the way that we talked about, how could students not be fearful? There's a killer on the loose.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And. And he's killing inside of a church.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

So, like that. You always think, if I need a safe haven, I can go to a church.

[Mike Ferguson]

You don't expect that to happen at a church.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You really don't. And. And I think because of that, you know, we have to keep in mind. What does that mean? Does that mean that the person followed Arlis to the church, into the church? I can't imagine that a killer is just laying in wait at church for somebody to come in.

[Mike Gibson]

Seems strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

That does seem like a strange place to try to find a victim, if that's what you're you know, what you're trying to do. Bruce Perry was an early suspect, but was soon ruled out. He was said to have been cooperative from the beginning with police. Bruce spoke to the press a few days after the murder and said he told the police he believed Arlis was locked inside the church and wanted her to be woken up if she had fallen asleep. But no one checked inside. So he, you know, he's relaying this as when he reported her missing. He must have said, hey, she went to the church. I'm worried that she fell asleep and they, they locked the doors and she's still in there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So you could see that happening.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Now, how carefully are they checking to see, you know, who's in the church? I don't know. Chief Marvin Harrington of the Stanford Department of Public Safety said the call was received and officers checked the area. The exterior doors were locked. There were some women walking in the area, but none of them were Arl. And yeah, I, I get, you know, if you're looking at the police here, I, I don't know that there's any blame to be placed on them.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not like they discounted the call. They took it. They, they checked in at the church. The doors were locked. What else were they going to do?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I feel like they did their diligence.

[Mike Ferguson]

Bruce also noted that he took a lie detector test on October 14th and was clear. And we know how much they love their lie detector test in the 70s.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, man. Loved him.

[Mike Ferguson]

He said, whoever did this has to be insane. And to me, it's a very interesting quote because I have a feeling, you know, when you're Talking about the 60s, the 70s, that was a natural thought. No one but an insane person would commit this kind of crime right now. We know today because crimes have been studied and, you know, we know a lot more about it that not everyone who does this is insane. Some people just decide they want to either feel what it's like to kill someone. That's always the scary one to me. Or, you know, they have a compulsion or whatever. There's a lot of different reasons why people choose to compare commit murder, but it. They're certainly not all insane.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Santa Clary, Clary.

[Mike Gibson]

Santa Clary or Clara. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

County officials ruled out links between arlis's murder and three previous murders in the area dating back to February 1973. The week after the murder, the Stanford police said there were four or five potential suspects they wanted to talk to to get their alibis.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I feel like they're doing what they should be doing. You know, they're not just sitting around, not looking into it. They're. They're taking the steps that they need to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And I, again, I don't know what they have at their disposal.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

As far as, you know, what can you do with the semen? Maybe blood typing is probably about all you could do in 1974.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pretty limited, obviously. The palm print. If you had a palm print on file in that local jurisdiction, you could compare palm prints, but I don't think they had a big database and where a computer would just go, yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, it's, it's a thing where you look at the days before technology. I mean, you can even go all the way back to the early 1900s, even the 1800s, and just see how police did their work. And it's amazing that they were able to solve as many crimes as they did now. I'm sure they put a lot of people away that were innocent probably. It's hard not to think that that happened. But you know, they did the best with what they had, I think most of the time.

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[Mike Gibson]

It'd be difficult.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do, too. Captain Frank Masunik of the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Office said, per the Peninsula Times Tribune. My feeling all along has been that the killer was locked in. There's no question in my mind Mrs. Perry was in the church when it was locked. So in his mind, they were both locked in. Now, again, whether she was already dead when the doors were locked, could she have been incapacitated and then killed later? We don't know that.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't know how they would have determined that.

[Mike Gibson]

But it sounds like he's confident about the fact that they were locked in.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but I can understand why.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She goes in the church.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She's seen in the church. The doors are locked. At some point, someone forces the door open. To me, it all kind of lines up with both her and the killer being inside the church when it was locked, and then the killer later figuring out that, hey, I gotta bust out of here and get away. Police said at least 45 people were in or near the church on the night of October 12th. The FBI developed 125 latent fingerprints from the materials sent to them, and about 15 people were cleared through fingerprint comparison.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's something, right? I mean, you had 45 people that were in and around the church at the time, and they were able to clear 15.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And again, that's something you definitely could do, right, with fingerprints, if you had a fingerprint or a palm Print or whatever it was. You could take somebody else's and compare them, and you say, nope, it's not. That's not you. But if you don't have the killer's fingerprint or you. The killer is not one of these 45 people that you're talking to or whatever it is, then it becomes a lot tougher.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If this guy's on file in another state, okay, that makes it tough because there just wasn't that big connection.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Back then, at least seven people were actually inside the church on the night of October 12, including Arlis and the security guard. Four others were identified, but the seventh individual was not a passerby. Described him as a young man with sandy hair and a medium build. And I would assume in 1974, that would have been a pretty app.

[Mike Gibson]

Description of you or anybody at that time in California.

[Mike Ferguson]

No kidding. A lot of people have, you know, sandy does, blondish hair in California, but, you know, young man, medium build. Okay. You're not really narrowing it down all that much, but if you've got 45 people, maybe that helps you out.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you've got thousands of people, then no, maybe not so much. In January 1979, the FBI released a new profile of the killer indicating that he may still stalk the campus. The killer may have seen Arlis's casual clothing as a defilement of the place of worship, or he may have killed for fear he would be overwhelmed by lust.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, they overwhelmed by lust theory.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. He was most likely a loner and kept a souvenir from the night. And it was said that Arlis's glasses were missing.

[Mike Gibson]

That's not surprising, Right. If they kept the souvenir or no. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, And, I mean, none of this really surprises me. And. And profiles rarely do. Right. FBI profile profiles rarely surprise me because I think more often than not, they follow a pretty similar pattern.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, this one comes five years after the murder, and they're saying this guy's probably still stalking the campus. Okay. He's not been caught, so. Yeah, he probably could be. May very well be doing that now. To me, the. The clothing she was wearing, being seen as casual to an individual. And then they think, well, this person is defiling my place of worship.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Could it happen? Yeah. But is it more likely to me than some of the other ones? I would say no. Now, if you're talking about lust, things like that, I would be more apt to sign on.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, same here.

[Mike Ferguson]

But the fact that she wasn't dressed to the nines to Go worship at, you know, 11 o' clock at night or whatever time it was. And somebody got mad about that. Mad enough to shove an ice pick in the back of her head? Yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of tough to buy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I. Same here. And then you think about. That's why I lean back on the lust part. Because think about, you know, what the individual did with the candle.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, the semen, this stuff. I mean, I think that makes more sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

It absolutely does. Also, I mean, how many times do we talk about it? What are the big motives for murder?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Greed, lust, those types of things. Somebody not wearing the right clothing that you think they should be. And you're upset about that. It's not one you see.

[Mike Gibson]

No. And if that upsets you, why would you go to the extent that you're going to kill the person and then you're going to perform sexual acts?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's like. Aren't you defiling the church greater than.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's a great point. That's why to me, that one just doesn't make a ton of sense.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They said that he was most likely a white male between 17 to 22 years old and highly religious. Well, highly religious. Why? Because this happened in a church.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Again, that's why the, the profile thing, to me, some turn out to be right, some turn out to be wrong.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's all kind of an educated guess. I get it. It's built on years of experience and, and all of that, but could this be a person who's not religious at all, but it was fixated with this woman and happened to follow her into the church?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, for sure. When I think of highly religious, I think of that guy in that movie that would, you know, beat himself with the.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, you're going back to Dan Brown again.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're really on a Dan Brown kick today.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know he had that self flagellate. Yes, I think it was called.

[Mike Gibson]

Then he had something else. He would twist that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, that was even worse.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That would actually dig into his skin.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So by this time, detectives said they had questioned over 50 people and compared their prints with those at the crime scene. A number of people also took lie detector tests. So to your point, they're. They're obviously doing the investigation. Yeah, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're getting into it. Arlis's husband, Bruce, willingly provided a DNA sample to investigators.

[Mike Gibson]

Willingly. Like, hey, you need a DNA sample. I'll give it to you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Gibson]

I can do it right now if you want it.

[Mike Ferguson]

But wouldn't you do that, too if you knew that you weren't guilty?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You'd be one of. You'd be the first person in line to say, hey, make sure, you know, I'll give you a DNA sample. And obviously this would be later because, you know, DNA wasn't really a thing

[Mike Gibson]

I probably just show up with. I mean, I always carry a sample.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't want to know what kind. Please don't tell me.

[Mike Gibson]

It's got to rotate them every now and then for the, you know, expiration of them.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, yeah, I mean, you know, to me, when somebody willingly offers up, you know, good chance that they're not guilty.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. They feel pretty confident. He's clear.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Security guard Stephen Crawford did not submit a DNA sample, but police obtained one from an object he discarded. He also didn't take a lie detector test when others did.

[Mike Gibson]

That makes you wonder, you know, hey, you're a security guard, kind of law enforcement ish, you know, but why wouldn't you want to help out here? You know, do the lie detector test and. But I love these sneaky, you know, wait for him to put his coffee cup down or.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I always love that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Straws, coffee cups. You know, there's. There's been all kinds of different things, but it does. It doesn't mean Stephen Crawford's guilty. But, you know, in the eyes of investigators, he. He has to go up the list.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure he does. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's not being cooperative as far as giving DNA, taking a lie detector test. Now, we said it right at this time, DNA profiling as we know it did not exist.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

In his book the Ultimate Evil, the Search for the Sons of Sam, journalist Maury Terry proposes the theory that Arlis was murdered by a satanic cult on the instructions of Satanists from Bismarck.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, okay. Now, came down from Bismarck.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, this book came out in 1987, which to me is. Is during the height of the whole satanic panic thing. And it doesn't surprise me that someone would say, well, it's probably a satanic cult. Yeah, they did blame a lot of stuff back then on satanic cults.

[Mike Gibson]

Did I? I did in school. I blamed it a lot of times why my homework wasn't turned in.

[Mike Ferguson]

Satanic cult.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, they had me. I couldn't get my homework done. Terry also speculates on serial killer David Berkowitz's alleged involvement. So, you know, you have the Son of Sam, David Berkowitz, he's killing people in New York City. But, you know, maybe he decides to take a trip to North Dakota, I guess. Seems a. A little far fetched.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But in 1979, Berkowitz sent a book to North Dakota authorities in which he wrote in the margins, arlis Perry, hunted, stalked and slain, followed to California, Stanford University. I said North Dakota, but obviously the murder happened in California. Now we know now that Berkowitz was kind of full of it.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

And most of the stuff that he said, especially about the Son of Sam and the dog and all that, turned out to be just made up.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Bs, but also, you know, how hard would it be for him maybe to learn about this murder and then send this book in to authorities? The other thing we know about serial killers is they like to take credit for things sometimes that they didn't do, especially when they're already in. In prison. What do they have to lose if

[Mike Gibson]

it gets some more limelight, too? Some of these guys, they like the attention.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Because, you know, if you think about a serial killer, especially when they're captured, oh, my gosh, it's, it's huge. It's big news. Right. It's a, A media circus with the trial. But then what happens? Eventually all of that kind of goes away and you're just left to rot in a cell for the rest of your life or to be put to death at some point. So to your point, does someone say, well, I haven't been in the news for a while, nobody's come to talk to me, I'll do this.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it'll kind of stir things up again.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, I think if I was a serial killer today, I'd probably, like, do a true crime podcast, you know, like as a co host or something.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, and, and not be the main person. No, no, no. Just be, but be there and, you know, give, give some input.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right or wrong. Get free food.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Eat for free, like I do. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just all kinds of perks there, I guess, you know, Nine few letters. Berkowitz suggested that he heard details of the crime from Manson ii, who he said was the alleged killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. He was interviewed in prison, but investigators believed he had nothing of value to offer, per the San Jose Mercury News. Doesn't surprise me at all.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

With everything that we know about David Berkowitz, Maury Terry noted that Berkowitz volunteered information about the case. And without being prompted, Terry also interviewed Arlis's friends in North Dakota and learned that someone on the Stanford campus took a telephone listing under Bruce Perry's name. The confusion when Arlis's best friend and Bruce's mother attempted to reach them at the fraudulent phone number led Arlis to call the number herself and speak to someone. In a letter dated September 27, 1974, Arlis wrote, I had to laugh about your call to Bruce Perry. Mrs. Perry made the same mistake. She called them too. But the strange part of it is that his name is not only Bruce Perry, but it's Bruce D. Perry. But not only that, it's Bruce Duncan Perry. And he attends Stanford University and he just got married this summer. One thing, his wife's name is not Arlis. Anyway, next time you get the urge to call, the number is da da da. This time I guarantee you'll get the right Bruce Perry. So, you know, kind of a strange thing is to have happen.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of interesting.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, could it be that there's a another Bruce Duncan Perry and technically, but one that just got married that summer, I mean, it seems pretty strange, pretty far fetched. You know, folks, it's summertime and that changes how I get dressed. You know, I want pieces that are breathable, easy, but still make me look put together. And that's why I just keep coming back to Quint. You know, Quint has high quality pieces that feel and look amazing and the prices are unbelievable. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And this is because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So what you're paying for is quality and not brand markup. They have European linen pants and shirts starting at just $34. I love everything I've bought from Quint, but my absolute favorite is their Flowknit activewear joggers, tops. It's my go to. But Quint goes beyond clothing. They have everything from sofas to ceramic cookware. And my daughter loves their premium bedding. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com teacat for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I-n c e.com tcatt for free shipping and 365 day returns.

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[Mike Ferguson]

Serial killer Ted Bundy was also considered a suspect at one point, but he had a verified alibi. Now, we've talked about it a lot, right. When you have these unsolved cases, pretty normal for police to look at, you know, serial killers who had similar MOs who were operating maybe in or around the area at the same time. That happens or that happens today. But it's happened throughout history.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I'm not surprised that they looked at Bundy initially because, you know, Campus California. I mean, it just kind of makes sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Plus, you know, you, you have a verified serial killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You already know this person's capable of this type of murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now we just want to see if they actually did this one. In August 2016, detectives submitted an item of Arlis's clothing for DNA testing. In 2018, DNA evidence definitively linked former security guard Stephen Crawford to Arlis's murder. By this time, GIBBS, Crawford was 72

[Mike Gibson]

years old and 72.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's the power of DNA. And we, we keep talking about it. You know, 2018 seemed to me to be kind of the year where a lot of the, the newer DNA technology was being unleashed. You know, you think about the Golden State Killer being captured when that tooth, I think that was 2018. I can't remember. It was around that time frame. But, you know, I, I think it's when they were starting to realize some of the, the power of DNA, especially when it came to like, genetic genealogy and, and things like that. But that's the amazing thing about DNA as it relates to forensic work and, and police work. The technology just keeps evolving.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And getting better and better as far as being able to get samples maybe on things that were tried years and years ago, but the technology wasn't there to even get a viable sample. And, and now they can.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I love that this is happening. You know, I'm just trying to picture all these people that thought they got away with something and then they see the cruiser come down the lane or they see the, or they see the police officer at the door, you know,

[Mike Ferguson]

or they watch you on YouTube hitting your mic.

[Mike Gibson]

My mic. Ye. But I love that because, you know, it's got to be a feeling of like, oh, shit.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. No, because my thought is always that, you know, especially in these crimes that happened 6,070s, things like that, they had many, many years of thinking, oh, I got away with this. There is no way they'll ever connect me. Then at a certain point, they had to start being a little concerned when you see on the news that some of these cold cases are being solved using DNA, and then you really got to be shaking in your boots when you see some of the advancements down the road. And at that point you're thinking, oh, they could get me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And now it's like an everyday looking over my shoulder type of thing, which I'm with you. I think that's amazing because we don't want these people, number one, to get away with these murders, but number two, to live their life free from, at the very least, anxiety about being caught. And. And obviously we want them to eventually be caught. But 72 years old.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You figure at 72, most people, and I say most, not everybody, they've been married maybe once, maybe multiple times, usually have a family, grandkids, probably retired. You're somebody's grandpa.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And now all of a sudden, you're linked to a murder. I mean, what does that do? You know, throughout the. The family tree, there's just a lot that goes into these identifications.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On June 28, 2018, as police arrived at his apartment in San Jose, California, with a search warrant, Stephen Crawford shot himself in the head.

[Mike Gibson]

Couldn't handle it.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And. And to your point, I do think that he was aware maybe not that they were closing in on him, but that the technology was. Was there that they could catch him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I'm sure he was very aware of the type of evidence that they had.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. And see, left it on the kneeling post.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And I'm sure it'd been reported, Right? Well, we know it had because this is where we got some of our information from old newspaper articles and things like that. So as time goes by. Right. For Stephen Crawford and you're starting to see what they can do with DNA and you know what you left behind.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You got to be really worried.

[Mike Gibson]

So now we're not surprised at all. Why he didn't want to give a DNA sample back then.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

No.

[Mike Gibson]

And why he didn't want to take the lie detector test now.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because. Because, you know, he would have failed the. The lie detector test, I'm sure. And whatever they could have done, which obviously was not full blown DNA profiling, but most likely they would have mashed his blood type.

[Shannon Maldonado]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe something along those lines. I don't know if it would have been enough to convict him, but he wasn't taking that Chance. Deputies arrived at his apartment at 9:04am and they spoke to him through the door. Crawford asked for a few minutes to get dressed. Deputies thought he was stalling, so they used a key they got from the office to get inside. He was sitting on the bed with a gun in his hand. Deputies immediately backed away. And then a short time later, they heard a gunshot. When they re entered, Crawford was dead from a self inflicted wound. And you know, for me, that is just the kind of proof that he had known at the very least that this could happen to him. They could figure out who he was and he had made the, the necessary preparations, let's call it that. And in his mind, he was never going to be taken alive. I think he had made that choice.

[Mike Gibson]

Certainly didn't want to go to prison.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, he didn't want to pay for his crime. At a news conference, Lori Smith with Santa Clara county said is quoted by Palo Alto Online. We followed all the leads and unraveled an entanglement of the elements associated with the murder of Arlis Perry. This is a case that eludes us no longer. And I, you know, I wonder what the feeling is like for investigators. Yeah, we talk a lot about what, what is the feeling for the family to finally get that type of notification that the murder of your loved one is solved so many years later. But, you know, you also have to think about investigators. A lot of people who worked on it retired and probably found out at some point. Right. That it was finally solved. It's got to be a really gratifying feeling.

[Mike Gibson]

I think so. I mean, the relief and the

[Ryan Reynolds]

almost,

[Mike Gibson]

I think you would almost break down and think, finally, yeah, finally we got the guy.

[Mike Ferguson]

They worked on it for many, many years. They never gave up. And they finally figured out who it was. Smith said that Crawford had been a suspect, but there just wasn't enough evidence to charge him. And we talked about it. Right. How could he not be a suspect? First of all, he's the, the person who found the body.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, and that person is always going to be, if not a suspect, a person of interest. They have to be cleared because many times the person who finds the body turns out to be the killer. But then also you have him, you know, not wanting to take a lie detector test, not wanting to give up any type of, of DNA. He's got to be a suspect.

[Mike Gibson]

And he had access to the location.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, absolutely. He had keys.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cold case detectives contacted Crawford in the weeks leading up to his death. And so, right, we talked about it. At some point, he had to know there was a chance. Well, when they contacted him, that must have really set the alarm bells off.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're on to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. It's a matter of time.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So he, at that point, if he wasn't already, like, geared up to possibly do something, at that point, he probably did gear up. He was linked to the crime through DNA evidence found on Arlis's clothing. That evidence was pushed forward by lead Detective Sergeant Richard Alanis. Alanis kept a picture of Arlis to serve as a reminder of her life. And we've heard that, right. A lot of detectives do. For cases that go back 10, 20,

[Mike Gibson]

30, 40 years, I think it's good. I think it's important to remember why you're doing what you're doing every day or once a week or whatever the frequency is on these cold cases. So you remember this was a person.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Not just a cold case with a number. There's an actual person. And I think, please know that. Detectives who searched Crawford's apartment found a box in his closet that contained personal papers and the jacket for the book the Ultimate Evil by Maury Terry, which discusses the murder of Arlis Perry. A hastily written suicide note from 2016 was found on a computer table near the bed. It didn't mention the murder directly. This date may have coincided with when the lead detective began questioning Crawford again. Arlis's mother, Jean, was 88 years old when the case was solved. She told the Mercury News that the case had taken a toll in recent years on her husband, Marvin, who sadly died three months earlier. She was heartbroken that the perpetrator wasn't captured before he died.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Do you like to build a. Get him that closure?

[Mike Ferguson]

So, yeah, but it's sad that he died without ever knowing that the case was solved. Arlis's sister, Karen Barnes, spoke to reporters by phone and said that their first was a reaction was, after all these years, it's about time. And I get that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, is it that some people at a certain point think it's just been too long, it's never going to be solved? And then others, they never give up hope, they never waver, they, you know, kind of remain steadfast, that, no, it is going to be solved, but either way, you would have to have some sort of reaction like that, like, it's about time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, we've been waiting so long. They knew the sheriff's office was still investigating. Occasionally they received inquiries from detectives following up on various aspects of the case. They weren't surprised to learn Crawford was a suspect because, as they said, from what we heard, his story tended to change every now and then, and we've

[Mike Gibson]

talked about it many times before on the Unsolved podcast is when you have these people changing their story, it tends to be because there's no truth behind it. They're lying. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, and they're making something up again.

[Mike Gibson]

They forget what they made up, or

[Mike Ferguson]

they're contradicted with facts. So they got to make up a news story that kind of fits the facts that, you know, are put before them now. She also said their closure wasn't complete because they didn't know why Arlis was killed. And, yeah, knowing who, that's important, but the why, I think, for many people is also very important. Why? Why would someone want to do this to our loved one? This person who, you know, everyone seemed to really like, said was a nice person. Why would they do it?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Makes you wonder, you know, was it just somebody he lusted after when he's. When he seen her in there, and then after the fact, he did all that extra stuff to try to make the police think something more than what it was?

[Mike Ferguson]

Or was that part of his fantasy?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or part of, you know, the killing itself and the gratification that goes along with it for some of these individuals. Crawford's neighbor Jeanette Cristostoma told Palo Alto News that they exchanged greetings several times during the year she lived at the complex. Crawford kept to himself, but seemed normal. Palo Alto News provided further information on Crawford's background, and he was an Air Force veteran. He began working for Stanford in 1971 as a police officer and carried a gun. In 1972, the new police chief began reorganizing the Stanford Police Department and questioned whether many officers were qualified to carry guns. They were asked to reapply, and about three quarters of the force did not qualify, so they were offered jobs as security guards. Crawford was one of those people. It was said that he complained bitterly about the change.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, he just wasn't happy that he had to be. Probably. Probably to him, it was a demotion.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I'm sure he looked at it that way. He was a police officer. Now he's a security guard. I mean, that's nothing against security guards, but I'm with you. I'm thinking, you know, if I'm in his mind, that's a demotion.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he wasn't happy about it. He remained at Stanford until 1976, but he began stealing items from some of the Offices there such as human skulls, a walking cane given to the university founder, Rare books. He also got a degree, Gibbs, from Stanford, using a blank diploma that he took from the print shop.

[Mike Gibson]

Now, that sounds something like you or I would have done back in the day. Or maybe just me.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe just you. But okay, you're just going to walk around as the security guard stealing a bunch of stuff. You're also going to be so bold to give yourself a degree from Stanford. This is not Podunk you. This is Stanford University.

[Mike Gibson]

It's, you know, prestigious.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pretty prestigious. Not. Not that easy to get into. You know, you got to work your butt off. Crawford was arrested for receipt of stolen property. He received a six month suspended sentence. He claimed he was angry at the university and the police department for treating him as a suspect. Sheriff Lori Smith said investigators didn't think Crawford was connected to other unsolved murders at Stanford or in the area, but they were still looking into it.

[Mike Gibson]

I just find it weird that he was upset that they were looking at him as a suspect.

[Mike Ferguson]

You did it well, but I just snorted. He's not going to be happy because he doesn't want to be looked at. But you're right, he did it. Doesn't mean he has to be happy about it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

But let's talk about the notion that he would commit other crimes. And I think to do that, you have to go back and kind of revisit this crime and its brutality.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Obviously, we talked about the sexual nature of the crime, the. The ice pick to the back of the head. I feel like this is the type of person who could have committed other crimes.

[Mike Gibson]

I think so. I. I don't think you could clearly say this is an isolated issue.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, there's. There's no way. Now, could someone commit a crime like this and then never murder anybody again? Yeah, technically they could. I think there's a. There's a strong likelihood, though, that if you're able to do this, the chances are that you either enjoyed it or there was some aspect to it that you're going to want to experience again, as nasty and vile as that sounds. Former San Jose Mercury News columnist Scott Herhold spent years studying the case and developed a snapshot of Crawford's personality. He said he could be charming, but he was a loner and a liar. For example, he claimed his parents died in a car accident when he and his brother were young, but they actually died separately. When he was in his early 20s, he was in a square dance group and his groupmates called Him. The prevaricator. Because of his tendencies to tell stories.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a big term there to use instead of saying karma. Liar.

[Mike Ferguson]

I. I've never actually heard of that word, and I feel like my vocabulary is decent. I just. Yeah, it's not one I'm familiar with.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, if you take the. The vari. You already had the pre.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, here we go. Break it down. And it's Latin, and you know all about it. I. I think the. The first. The first maybe thing to jump out at somebody was the fact that he was in a square dance group.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Nothing against all you square dancers out there, but.

[Mike Gibson]

But, you know, you know, single going to the square dance. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe you should be looked into.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe. I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

So, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs. The murder of Arlis Perry was the biggest unsolved crime in Santa Clara county history. Her murder remained unsolved for more than four decades. But as we talked about. Right. Investigators never stop pursuing their main suspect, and they used advances in DNA technology to link Stephen Crawford to the murder. Sadly. Although there's not a. I guess what you would call a resolution in this case, because there's no legal justice for Arlis and her family. But we know who did it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, at least he's no longer around.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But resolution, but then also not resolution. Those cases are always strange when somebody doesn't make it to trial, even though the evidence is overwhelming. I'm sure he would have been convicted,

[Mike Gibson]

but you just wish that he would have suffered.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Because some of this.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think, though, these. These types of cases are even more infuriating because what he did was extremely horrible.

[Mike Gibson]

It was.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he took someone's life. But then he got to live his life for a very long time.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, 40 some years, man. Just. I think for a good chunk of that, he didn't turn around to look who was behind them at all.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, at a certain point, I'm sure he did. But like you said, the. The majority. The majority of it, I'm sure he lived. I don't know how good of a life it was, but, yeah, it was a free life. He was free to do whatever he wanted. And he shouldn't have been.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because he, you know, he killed someone. But that's it for our episode on Arlis Perry. You got anything else?

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right.

[Mike Gibson]

See how simple that was?

[Shannon Maldonado]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

You just say no. So that's it for another episode of True Crime. All the time. So for Mike and Gibby. Stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[Shannon Maldonado]

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