Ann Racz

Summary

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True Crime All The Time – Episode 512: Ann Racz

Release Date: July 6, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson ("Gibby")
Case: The Disappearance and Murder of Ann Monaco Racz

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Overview

In this episode, Mike Ferguson and Gibby discuss the mysterious disappearance and presumed murder of Ann Monaco Racz in 1991. Ann vanished just days after serving her husband, former LA County Sheriff’s Sgt. John Racz, divorce papers. The hosts take listeners through the timeline, key suspects, the circumstantial evidence that led to John’s conviction 15 years later, and the heart-wrenching impact on Ann’s family and children. The episode dives into themes of control, fear, and the challenges of prosecuting "no-body" homicide cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background & Disappearance

• Ann Monaco Racz was a devoted Japanese-American mother of three from Santa Clarita, CA, deeply involved in her community and church (07:00–07:54).
• In April 1991, after 19 years of marriage, Ann left John, moved out, and served him divorce papers (05:04–05:23).
• On April 22, four days after leaving him, Ann dropped her kids off for a visit with John, left to buy food, and was never seen again (04:54–05:23).

“Ann has not been seen or heard from since she pulled out of the driveway that day.”
— Mike Ferguson (05:23)

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2. John Racz’s Unusual Account

• John was questioned immediately. He told police Ann had gone on an extended trip, possibly to Japan, and that he’d given her $25,000 to "take a break" and think about their marriage (08:47–09:38).
• He claimed meetings and phone calls with Ann after her disappearance, but these were uncorroborated (09:55–10:44).

“It’s a story that would raise some eyebrows if you heard it… Not that it couldn’t happen, but is it the most logical?”
— Mike Ferguson (09:55)

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3. Inconsistencies, Evidence, and Police Suspicion

• Ann’s station wagon was found at a long-term airport lot, but she was not on flight manifests, and her meticulous housekeeping habits (e.g. pizza left untouched at home) suggested a sudden or interrupted departure (11:18–12:55).
• Ann’s pattern was to never travel without informing others, and she even pre-addressed postcards to family before trips (12:12–12:27).
• Police and the community remained suspicious due to a lack of evidence she left willingly (14:18–14:54).

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4. Timeline & Breakthroughs

• The case went cold for 15 years. Occasional police digs for Ann’s body (sometimes based on psychic tips) turned up nothing (15:19–16:40).
• In 2006, new information revived the investigation. John hired an attorney and stopped cooperating. A search of his home was fruitless, but interest in him intensified (19:26–22:49).
• John was arrested upon returning from Thailand in October 2006, after a grand jury indicted him for Ann’s murder (22:09–22:49).

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5. Trial & Circumstantial Case

• The prosecution argued John killed Ann soon after she served him papers, using only circumstantial evidence: her sudden disappearance, his inconsistent statements, and testimony from those who knew her (24:46–25:38; 30:02–31:49).
• Ann had confided in friends and her pastor about being afraid of John; he had threatened to kill her if she left (30:26–31:49).
• The defense tried to paint Ann as unhappy, overwhelmed, and possibly capable of abandoning her family, citing secondhand remarks and her affair with Robert Russell (29:21–30:26).

“You would have to believe that Ann Racz… abandoned her children and disappeared with no word to anyone in her life but the one person she’s afraid of and doesn’t want to see anymore. He’s the only one she’s talking to. It’s absurd.”
— Deputy DA John Lewin (27:11)

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6. Children’s Testimony & Emotional Impact

• Ann’s children, particularly daughter Joanne, played a key role. Joanne insisted her mother wouldn’t leave the children and was suspicious of her father’s explanations (43:13–44:46).
• Contradictions emerged regarding who reported Ann missing and when, adding to suspicion (33:37–36:09).
• John, described as "extremely frugal," was portrayed as unlikely to have willingly handed Ann $25,000 as he claimed (47:26–47:49).

“If you had any type of story that revolved around you giving someone—especially your ex wife—thousands and thousands of dollars willingly, color me skeptical.”
— Mike Ferguson (47:26)

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7. Ann's Character

• Multiple witnesses—including Ann’s pastor, friends, and romantic partner—testified to her loving, responsible nature and her clear plans to start a new life with Robert Russell (38:09–39:00).
• Ann never expressed intent to abandon her family, making the defense’s theory seem unlikely (40:53–41:29).

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8. Verdict, Sentencing, and Aftermath

• John Racz was convicted of first-degree murder in August 2007, despite no body, murder weapon, or eyewitnesses (53:49–55:35).
• The prosecution stressed motive (control, money), means, and opportunity; the defense objected to the circumstantial nature and 16-year delay in prosecution.
• At sentencing, John maintained his innocence, insisting Ann had left him (55:35–56:28).

“If Ann did run away… She doesn’t seem like the type of person that would allow her children’s father to be arrested and charged with murder and sent to jail.”
— Mike Gibson (56:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On John’s Story:

  • “It’s a little bit extreme… but it’s those things that we talk about. People have routine.”
    — Mike Ferguson (12:27)

• On Ann’s Fears:

  • “If you ever leave me, I’ll find you no matter where you go.”
    — Ann to Pastor Glenn Thorpe (30:26)

• On Domestic Control:

  • “Some individuals… just have that mentality that they’re not going to lose. They’re not going to give in, regardless of the feelings of the other person.”
    — Mike Ferguson (31:08)

• Reflecting on No-Body Cases:

  • “Depending on the jury makeup… it’s not a slam dunk… I could easily see one juror holding out because they’re just not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.”
    — Mike Ferguson (58:44)

• On Modern Evidence:

  • “If this would happen today, we would know more… All the cameras, the cell phone evidence… We’d have more of a definitive timeline.”
    — Mike Gibson (60:07–61:10)

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Timeline Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:-------------:|:-----------------------------------------------------| | 04:54–05:23 | Ann serves divorce papers and disappears | | 08:47–09:38 | John’s "trip to Japan" alibi detailed | | 11:18–12:55 | Odd evidence at Ann’s condo; her personality | | 14:18–14:54 | Car found at airport, doubts about John’s story | | 19:26–22:49 | Cold case reopens; search warrant, John’s behavior | | 22:09–22:49 | John’s arrest on return from Thailand | | 25:38–27:11 | Prosecution’s circumstantial case, logic in absence | | 30:26–31:49 | Pastor’s testimony on threats and Ann’s fear | | 38:09–39:00 | Letters/plans with lover Robert Russell | | 43:13–44:46 | Joanne’s suspicions and contradictions in John’s story| | 53:49–55:35 | Verdict, defense rebuttal, problems with no-body cases| | 58:44–60:07 | Hosts reflect on jury psychology, case legacy |

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Flow & Tone

As always, Mike and Gibby balance serious analysis with light moments and familiar banter, but never downplay the tragedy or stakes for the victim and her family.

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Conclusion

Mike and Gibby conclude that the overwhelming circumstantial evidence, especially regarding John Racz’s inconsistent stories and Ann’s prior warnings about his threats, led to a rightful conviction—even without a body. They express empathy for Ann’s children, who lost both parents—one to murder, one to prison. The hosts reflect on advances in technology that might have made the case stronger today and reiterate how frequently money, divorce, and control lie at the heart of family tragedies.

Final Word:
“If we do this podcast for twenty more years, I’m never going to understand [killing your spouse over control or money]. Just move on with your life.”
— Mike Ferguson (59:39)

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Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Kiana]

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[Julie]

foreign

[Mike Ferguson]

and welcome to episode five hundred and twelve of the true crime all the time podcast i'm mike ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime mike gibson gibby how are

[Mike Gibson]

you hey i'm okay man i mean got this kidney stone i'm trying to get rid of but outside of that i'm good how about you yeah yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

i'm doing great feeling good but yeah you shocked me with that news yesterday well kidney stone and invading never fun they hurt man i do not like them at all so i'm i'm feeling for you on that one yeah i

[Mike Gibson]

heard it was your birthday too yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

not today but yeah i had my birthday earlier this week happy sixty third i appreciate it i appreciate it you're only ten years off but sometimes i feel like eighty three do you yeah

[Mike Gibson]

sometimes sometimes you look like you're eighty

[Mike Ferguson]

three sometimes i do yeah yeah i appreciate that let's go ahead and give our patreon shout outs we had deborah love hey love amy howard what's going on amy katie hogg hey katie karina flores oh hey karina ashley hughes thanks ashley beth lawler jumped out her highest

[Mike Gibson]

level love me beth thank you you say i love me some beth but

[Mike Ferguson]

i said love me beth she's like okay and last but not least kate ash hey kate and then if we go back into the vault this week we selected don black hey don appreciate that yeah appreciate all the patreon support we also had some great paypal support from jody reynolds look at jody coming

[Mike Gibson]

over on the top like that yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

very much appreciated very much i don't think you should be telling people to

[Mike Gibson]

love you i mean it in a loving care like love me love me

[Mike Ferguson]

very demanding love me damn it all right so we have an episode out right now on true crime all the time unsolved where we're talking about katie jenness she and her dog were stabbed to death in piedmont park in atlanta georgia in twenty twenty one so this case is not that old no it's not and almost five years later her murder remains unsolved and we dive into all the details and then on thursday's tcat we're talking about the nineteen ninety eight murder of five year old quatisha maycock this is a horrifying story gibbs she was murdered by a man who her mother befriended yeah thought was a good guy turned out he was a terrible person very terrible who had a criminal history longer than yours and much

[Mike Gibson]

much more horrible yeah it was a rough one to do but it's such a good case like you said this guy his record and the things that he attempted i'll leave it at that

[Mike Ferguson]

yeah yeah we don't want to give too much away but definitely check it out all right buddy are you ready to get in this episode of true crime all the time i am we are talking about ann monico rotz in april nineteen ninety one ann rot served her husband john divorce paper after nineteen years of marriage four days later ann dropped their three children off for a visit with john and left to buy them food she was supposed to return promptly but ann has never been seen or heard from since serving divorce papers

[Mike Gibson]

that's got to be rough you know i mean look i've been divorced

[Julie]

i

[Mike Gibson]

never had to have the paper served you know i would but if you're serving them or being served that means maybe you don't know what's coming sometimes i think that that happens like you just don't know and then that's how you find out that would be rough

[Mike Ferguson]

it would be now maybe you have an inkling that the marriage is not doing great but to be surprised with divorce papers that could really throw somebody for a loop ann monico rotts was born on january seventeenth nineteen forty nine in hawaii and came from a japanese american family she was married to john rotts and they shared three children they lived in the valencia neighborhood of santa clarita california did you ever see that show the santa clarita diet i seen like previews for it yeah i never watched it yeah i'm pretty sure drew barrymore was some kind of vampire or

[Mike Gibson]

something and we're trying to think who the guy wasn't it yeah he was

[Mike Ferguson]

kind of a well known person too but i can't remember and us not remembering makes for great podcasts it really

[Mike Gibson]

does i was like well you know right now somebody is listening a lot of people are such and such are

[Mike Ferguson]

you guys idiots why can you not

[Mike Gibson]

remember have you ever heard of google google it while you're on you know doing the podcast well it'd be too

[Mike Ferguson]

easy we never do so john was a former la county sheriff sergeant but he retired in the nineteen eighties and worked as an elementary school teacher in compton ann was a devoted and caring mother she was well known and popular in her community she spent much of her time volunteering at her children's schools and at newhall presbyterian church i wish

[Mike Gibson]

i could volunteer more i wish you

[Mike Ferguson]

could too

[Mike Gibson]

i just do i'm like

[Mike Ferguson]

you notice i didn't say i wish

[Mike Gibson]

i could volunteer i picked up on that pretty quick i just wish i could find that time and that energy to do what these good people out

[Mike Ferguson]

there do well to be fair you and i do donate to our patreon to some very very worthy causes but donating your own time is that next level it is you do have a full time job and podcast on top

[Mike Gibson]

of it that is very so you

[Mike Ferguson]

don't have a lot of free time not to mention the fact that you're engaged to someone who lives in canada

[Mike Gibson]

well that is a three hour drive there and back every weekend yes ann

[Mike Ferguson]

and john were married for nineteen years by nineteen ninety one their children joanne glenn and caitlyn were fourteen eleven and seven years old respectively on april eighteenth nineteen ninety one ann separated from john she took the kids and moved into a new apartment and the following day she served him with divorce papers at the same time she was seeing another man and planned to be with him in the future and then just a few days later on april twenty second nineteen ninety one ann disappeared without a trace that day ann dropped the three children off for a visit with john at the family home in valencia she planned to stop at a nearby mcdonald's to buy hamburgers for the children she was expected to return quickly but she never did ann has not been seen or heard from since she pulled out of the driveway that day exactly when and who reported ann missing is unclear which you know we'll get into in depth right later in the episode what we do know is that police questioned john from the beginning and he gave an unusual story to to investigators john told the police that ann had gone on an extended trip possibly to japan on april twenty second he talked to ann and told her he wanted to see their kids he offered her twenty five thousand dollars to take a trip and contemplate their marriage that is kind

[Mike Gibson]

of a strange story right one you're saying she probably went to japan because i told her she needed to take some time and think about you know leaving me and i offered her twenty five thousand of our money right because it's got to be i mean there's

[Mike Ferguson]

still their money their money it's a story that i think would you know kind of raise some eyebrows if you heard it not that it couldn't happen but is it the most logical john also claimed that he met with ann twice in the two days following april twenty second and and that she called him from the la airport notifying him of her travel plans now the one thing that you know is that john's going to be questioned there's no way around that yeah he's the husband he's just been served divorce papers okay does he have a motive for wanting and debt possibly sure he's got to be questioned he has to be eliminated as

[Mike Gibson]

a suspect but he's saying look she called me two days afterwards she's at the la airport she told me that she planned on you know going here or there right taking a trip yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

yeah detectives attempted to corroborate john's claims but they suspected anne was the victim of foul play and that tells me right away that not only did they think john's story was a little fantastical they probably didn't really believe him yeah according to the charlie project investigators found a cold pizza sitting on the kitchen table in ann's condo they thought this was odd because ann was said to be a meticulous housekeeper who would not leave food out for long periods of time you know who else is a meticulous housekeeper not you not me but somebody in this house is yeah your wife my wife yeah as much as i talk about you know her cooking she is an unbelievable housekeeper to my detriment at times because she you know i i can be lazy and leave stuff out and that is a no

[Mike Gibson]

go in her book but she's also the type a person that scrubs dishes and cleans them and then puts them

[Mike Ferguson]

in the dishwasher yeah with soap and everything i'm like they're already clean now just put them away just dry them off and put them away ann was also not the type of person to go on a trip without telling anyone in fact when she went on vacations she liked to pre address mailing labels so she could send postcards to her

[Mike Gibson]

loved one all right it's a little

[Mike Ferguson]

bit extreme it is extreme but it's it's those things that we talk about right people have routine yeah now this is not an everyday thing but it is a routine in that this is what she does when she you know takes trips she does have a routine when it comes to you know keeping her house clean and you wouldn't expect a person like that to leave a pizza just sitting out on the kitchen

[Mike Gibson]

table no i mean some people like cold pizza and they'll leave it out

[Mike Ferguson]

overnight but yeah preferably cold meaning you put it in the fridge not cold as you left it on a table

[Mike Gibson]

overnight i've had buddies that would leave

[Mike Ferguson]

it out just oh i did that in college because we didn't have a refrigerator big enough to put the pizza

[Mike Gibson]

box in but you were okay just chanceling it with your gun oh at

[Mike Ferguson]

nineteen who cares yeah you know who

[Mike Gibson]

cares you probably had enough alcohol kill

[Mike Ferguson]

any bacteria but you know in in my fifties even in my forties thirties i tend to take food safety a little differently than i did when i was nineteen years old and in college on april twenty sixth nineteen ninety one ann's plymouth station wagon was found abandoned at the van nuys flyaway park and ride lot for travelers heading to the la airport there was no sign of her there investigators couldn't find ann's name on any flight manifests john spoke to the press on may twentieth and said his family was in turmoil and reiterated the sheriff's department plea for information he declined to speculate on whether ann might have gone back to japan saying per the signal newspaper i'd just like to say that we'd like her to return home if she reads this or if anyone knows her whereabouts we'd like her

[Mike Gibson]

back but she wasn't on any manifest and if you're flying international you would think you'd be on some type of

[Mike Ferguson]

manifest yeah now i get it's nineteen ninety one it's pre nine eleven things were a little bit different but i'm still thinking record keeping wise they knew who was on the plane and who wasn't it's casting a lot of doubt on john's story but you still have

[Mike Gibson]

to wonder how did the car get there or why is her car there

[Mike Ferguson]

yeah did somebody drive it there did she drive it there in june santa clarita sheriff's investigators focused on the hamburger hill fast food area in search of evidence that year crews dug at six sites around soledad canyon and spring canyon roads they were led to this area by two psychics in august nineteen ninety one authorities said that john was not a suspect however papers like the signal reported that moments after ann left to get food john told the kids he was going to the same mcdonald's he returned a short time later with cold

[Mike Gibson]

food for the children so she said she was gone he said hold on i'm going to go i'll be back kids and then he comes back with cold food meaning either did he get the food from that she might have

[Mike Ferguson]

got or was he gone long enough for it to go cold because he was doing something nefarious and you know

[Mike Gibson]

mcdonald's fries are not good cold half

[Mike Ferguson]

the time they're not good warm brother i gotta be honest with you i'm not here to bash on mcdonald's and maybe it's just the one by my house but it is real spotty and hit and miss lately yeah you know mcdonald's fries used to be the end all be all they are not anymore when they're fresh they're amazing but a lot of the time anymore they are not super fresh it's hard to get fresh ones anymore it is which makes no sense because the place is packed at all hours of the day and night yeah i don't know if they're not cooking them long enough i don't

[Mike Gibson]

know what's going on the whole system has gone out the window i do love their cokes though well i think

[Mike Ferguson]

we've talked about it before they do have an amazing carbonation system they do second to none can i get that

[Mike Gibson]

carbonation system at home you probably could

[Mike Ferguson]

it's going to cost a lot of

[Mike Gibson]

money yeah well you know me i'm

[Mike Ferguson]

tight on my funds eventually ann's case went cold fifteen years passed without answers police did not officially name john as a suspect and we said that right but they could never rule him out either so i get it it's tough to come out and officially say yeah this person is a suspect i think you have to meet some criteria of having at least some sort of evidence to to go out on a limb with that that type of you know proclamation but they definitely can't rule him out either there's a lot of smoke there yeah surrounding him they can leave

[Mike Gibson]

him as a person of interest yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

in june two thousand six authorities announced that new information may lead to the recovery of ann's body fifteen years after she went missing detectives were awaiting a search warrant to investigate a possible graveside the signal reported that john had since hired an attorney and refused to speak

[Mike Gibson]

to police i can't blame him no

[Mike Ferguson]

now is it because he was just tired of maybe being on the radar for so long or was it because things were heating up in the case and he was getting a little worried

[Mike Gibson]

things getting a little too close to

[Mike Ferguson]

home maybe on july seventh two thousand six detectives searched john's home in valencia but found nothing to indicate ann was buried there and it's not that people don't do it but i feel like it's not the smartest thing in the world to murder someone and then bury their body on your own property that's

[Mike Gibson]

what casey said yeah he got away

[Mike Ferguson]

with it for a while yeah i just feel like it's very hard if it's discovered to make any type of argument that you didn't know about it or you didn't have a hand in

[Mike Gibson]

it but think about how many serial killers did that right i mean we i was joking about gacy but gacy and herb baumeister yeah a lot of people have done it the the husband wife the west family the couple fred and rosemary yeah out on their back patio i mean it's like well even

[Mike Ferguson]

ed kemper i mean there are a

[Mike Gibson]

ton of people i mean they're just i think they don't they feel like they're never going to get caught yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

i do think that about a lot of killers a company contracted by the sheriff's department used sonar to search six feet into the ground there were a couple of spots that indicated a disturbance the search continued and cement was dug up but nothing was found but what it did this dig was prompt investigators to reopen the case in october two thousand six jon rotts was indicted for murder the grand jury heard from nineteen witnesses including john and ann's now adult children john was arrested on october twenty first two thousand six as he stepped off a flight from thailand detectives were tipped off about his arrival to the us by thai officials collaboration yeah now is it that he just decided he wanted to visit thailand maybe was he running from somewhere did he think that was someplace they couldn't get him i

[Mike Gibson]

don't know yeah maybe he just like going over the thai land maybe captain

[Mike Ferguson]

ray peavey was the one who ordered ann's case to be reopened he told the la times after the arrest we attempted to eliminate him as a suspect which we would do in any case involving the death of a spouse we were never able to eliminate him in fact the harder we looked at the case and the more information we gained the better he looked as a suspect which makes sense right i don't know how you could arrest somebody for murder just because you're unable to eliminate them you've got to have more than that

[Mike Gibson]

that but as you take you know each look deeper and deeper and that person becomes a greater suspect or person of interest then you know obviously you're

[Mike Ferguson]

going to shift your mindset pv acknowledged that detectives still had work to do in building their case because anne's body had not been found and we know that right we've heard it time and time again the nobody cases are harder they're being prosecuted more and more and have been over the years but i still think they're a little tougher john's attorney denied that he was involved and accused one of the original detectives of having a personal crusade against his client john pleaded not guilty to murder during his first court appearance the trial started with jury selection on june eighteenth two thousand seven during the selection process the defense characterized dan as unhappy and tired of the responsibilities of raising children they also alluded to a year long affair with her high school sweetheart that started in nineteen ninety john didn't learn of this affair until a year after ann left according to the defense ann moved herself and the kids out on april eighteenth nineteen ninety one while john was at work she served him divorce papers the next day they went to marriage counseling over the weekend and met in the driveway of the home on the day of ann's disappearance john told ann he would give her twenty five thousand dollars to use while traveling and contemplating

[Mike Gibson]

their marriage yeah here's twenty five thousand dollars take it travel back to your

[Mike Ferguson]

point i mean they haven't split assets at that juncture also though twenty five thousand dollars is a ton of money in nineteen ninety one sure it was now traveling to japan i'm sure is

[Mike Gibson]

not cheap no it's going to cost you some money there too but the

[Mike Ferguson]

prosecution called this story nonsensical and described john as a controlling husband who was not going to let ann leave him opening statements began on june twenty first prosecutors maintain that john killed ann on april twenty second nineteen ninety one deputy da john lewin relied on circumstantial evidence and logic to build the case that's all they had yeah he doesn't have a lot in the way of physical evidence number one he doesn't have a body and so it's hard to have a ton of physical evidence i think without the body lewin told the jury as quoted by the la times whether you have a body or not it's clear she's dead and once you agree she's dead and it's clear she died on april twenty second nineteen ninety one

[Mike Gibson]

he's trying to use that logic yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

and i think if you're a juror okay it does make some sense we don't believe this is a woman who just ran off and left her kids and since nobody has seen her since april twenty second of nineteen ninety one can you assume that that's when she

[Mike Gibson]

died well like you said you know she's got kids and there's nothing that we saw in the research that said she doesn't want to be with her kids she absolutely adored her kids well

[Mike Ferguson]

and also there was an affair going on and she had plans to be with someone else yeah so she's leaving that person behind as well if she just takes off to start a new life doesn't make sense it doesn't the jury heard that ann lived in fear of john throughout their marriage she told friends he threatened to kill her if she dared to leave him the prosecution also pointed out conflicts with john's original statements to investigators as well as to friends and family he claimed he met ann on april twenty fourth at a restaurant to give her seven thousand dollars as part of the total twenty five thousand dollars he planned to give her for her travels he claimed ann called him from the airport but john's claims that he was in contact with ann after april twenty second fell apart under scrutiny according to deputy da lewin you would have to believe that ann rotts who was a dedicated mother abandoned her children and disappeared with no word to anyone in her life but the one person she's afraid of and doesn't want to see anymore he's the only one she's talking to it's absurd it is it's unbelievable it is i think that's that word or that term nonsensical really does fit yeah it just does not make sense she didn't like this man she didn't want to be married to this man anymore yet of all the people friends and family he's the only person she's going to talk to after april twenty second yeah the prosecution also noted that anne was reported missing by her pastor who had been giving the couple marriage counseling and was familiar with

[Mike Gibson]

anne's fears so there's some accountability right there right he's saying what you're hearing about her being afraid of him is

[Mike Ferguson]

true yeah according to him also he's the one reporting her missing yeah not

[Mike Gibson]

her soon to be ex husband no

[Mike Ferguson]

but why would he if he's talking to her right in the days after yeah true but if those claims start to fall apart then everything starts to fall apart in their opening statement the defense reiterated their claim that ann was unhappy with her marriage and they alluded to a nineteen ninety one statement from the rotz's oldest daughter joanne who was fourteen at the time in which she recalled ann speculating that maybe she would just leave and perhaps the family would be better off without her at first no one thought she was serious and you know let's be honest a lot of people have probably made off the cuff statements like that yeah in a in a moment of anger or you know disappointment or fear or whatever it is doesn't mean they want to do it or or are going to do it but they've said things like that it happens you guys would be better off if i just left right i mean who hasn't said that i don't think i have but i'm sure a

[Mike Gibson]

lot of people have people do say

[Mike Ferguson]

things like that they do they don't really mean it and most people don't follow through no those are just kind of quick off the cuff type of anger remarks that very quickly go away

[Mike Gibson]

it's like me over here on pizza night saying can't believe you got mushrooms and olives again i'm leaving and then you know quickly turn back around sit down and eat the pizza that has mushrooms and olives on it yeah i

[Mike Ferguson]

mean you pick the mushrooms and olives off but you're not going to miss a free meal yeah i mean the

[Mike Gibson]

steam's still coming off the pizza that's

[Mike Ferguson]

one thing we know about you yes ann's pastor glenn thorpe who started marriage counseling with the couple in nineteen ninety said that ann was a faithful loving mother who was threatened by her husband and confided in her pastor that john threatened her by saying if you ever leave me i'll find you no matter where you go i'm going to stop

[Mike Gibson]

you there's those threats again that i cannot stand it's like people if you don't want to be with somebody or more importantly if someone doesn't want to be with you let them go why are you holding on to them for

[Mike Ferguson]

yeah i don't understand that mentality i really don't you know if i thought someone didn't like me didn't want to be friends with me didn't want to be married to me the last thing i would do is threaten them to stay yeah i already know they're not happy why would i want them to stay if they're not happy but i think you know some of these individuals they just have that mentality that they're not going to lose right they're not going to give in regardless of the feelings of the other person it's almost like those feelings don't matter no they don't what i care about matters and i want you to stay i don't care if you're happy or not and if you try to leave then something bad is going to happen yeah because

[Mike Gibson]

that's real love right there right it

[Mike Ferguson]

may be in their mind in some warped way it is i don't know ann also told him that john threatened to kill her according to the signal pastor thorpe described ann as a lovely caring woman who really loved life loved her children loved her faith and was

[Mike Gibson]

a giving person so this loving caring woman that loved her children loved her faith was just going to walk away

[Mike Ferguson]

from all that well and you also have to wonder how this testimony by the pastor is coming across you would think most people would find a person like this pretty credible yeah it comes

[Mike Gibson]

with some credibility for sure now there's

[Mike Ferguson]

a hearsay angle of it yes right she told him he's telling the court but do you place a little more accuracy on a pastor than maybe you do other people especially people who have maybe an axe to grind or have a reason for saying something and i would say most people probably would ann had long felt controlled by john and was forced to do things she didn't want to do she felt suffocated and this is the pastor talking he said the control extended into their sex life thorpe also said he filed a missing persons report on may first which contradicted john's claims that he reported ann missing

[Mike Gibson]

well what you don't want to be you don't want to be the husband that doesn't report your missing spouse and somebody else does because that's not going to make you look good well it

[Mike Ferguson]

also doesn't make you look good because of the scenario right she says i'm going to mcdonald's to get the kids some food i'll be back and then she doesn't come back yeah you don't find that odd but yet you run

[Mike Gibson]

to mcdonald's and get the kids some food and come back and she's still not back you didn't see her at mcdonald's so at that point would you not think something has happened at a

[Mike Ferguson]

certain point you would right now we said it right it was a little bit gray as far as who reported who missing but obviously we have the pastor testifying that he did you know

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[Mike Ferguson]

who get it done other character witnesses testified that ann was a loving and dedicated mother who volunteered at her children's school and was involved in their after school activities she would never abandon her children for years without contacting them and i feel like that about most mothers there are some who do it we've seen it happen but by and large most mothers would never abandon their children no be tough peter dana the retired principal of the elementary school where john tott after retiring from the police force testified that john lied about filing a missing persons report on april eighteenth nineteen ninety one john called him and said his wife had taken the kids and left him and asked for some time off work john was emotional and asked a series of out of place questions such as do you think that i'm the kind of guy who would be violent do you think i'm a mean person do you think i'm the kind of person who would hurt someone those

[Mike Gibson]

would be strange questions to ask yeah if i asked you those questions about me you would probably think what did you do this time yeah i mean

[Mike Ferguson]

first of all i would answer yes to all three but then after that it would be like okay why are you even bringing this stuff up when you're just asking for some time off work and you said your wife has taken the kids how does this play

[Mike Gibson]

in it's a little bit too much information or are you trying to initially plant something in my head that your wife took the kids and left but then you follow up with these strange questions like i could see if he called and said hey i need to take some time off my wife left me and took the kids left it at that but to go into this series of questions about am i a violent person do i do this do i do that what's the reason behind

[Mike Ferguson]

it john didn't come back to work until april twenty ninth dana noticed a one to two inch scratch on john's jaw towards his neck john also didn't reveal that ann was missing until may eighteenth and that's when he indicated he filed a missing persons report so that is about a month later yeah that's a long time to wait to even talk about a missing persons report or say that ann is missing and that's if he actually even did file one exactly the jury heard that the day before she went missing ann wrote a letter to her longtime friend and secret lover robert russell about their relationship and she expressed relief about moving out of her family home and her pending divorce russell testified that he and ann made plans prior to her moving out he planned to sell his house in northern california to move with his daughter into a home with ann and her children they were going to visit disneyland with their kids and in june ninety one

[Mike Gibson]

so they had a plan they had

[Mike Ferguson]

a number of plans so again if you're looking at the probability that ann just kind of up and left does it seem more likely or less likely knowing that she had what appeared to be a good relationship with this guy they made plans to move in together

[Mike Gibson]

i'm not buying it no me neither

[Mike Ferguson]

ann also told russell her husband was abusive and she was afraid he would retaliate now russell didn't push for details he testified that ann wanted to move

[Mike Gibson]

quickly and silently if john was actually the type of guy she said he was then you would want to avoid any confrontational run inside yeah because i

[Mike Ferguson]

think she knew he was not going to take it well right ann and john reportedly had a heated argument after meeting with pastor glenn thorpe to discuss custody of their kids the day after the divorce papers were served ann told russell about the argument over the phone she wrote in her april twenty first letter to russell which was postmarked april twenty second i'm exclusively yours you've always had my love i will never have sex with john again i will never touch him again i'm free neighbor thomas deardorf testified that he was washing his car in the driveway on april twenty second nineteen ninety one when he saw john and ann talking to each other in their front yard ann drove away he flagged her down to ask about a babysitting arrangement ann told him she had to get the kids something to eat shortly after she left john drove down the street dierdorf said john seemed intent and did not wave in his direction something he normally did like john

[Mike Gibson]

was on a mission yeah like he

[Mike Ferguson]

was hyper focused yeah members of ann's bible study group testified that she shared her plans to leave john during an april sixteenth meeting she expressed fear about the fact that john kept guns in their home member pat cottrell testified that ann told stories of how john would sit alone in the dark planning the perfect crime scary very scary i don't know what all's involved with sitting in the dark quote unquote planning the perfect crime but not something i sit around

[Mike Gibson]

doing but clearly she knew she was leaving him she told many people that she was leaving him yes you know what what her plans were so you

[Mike Ferguson]

know what she didn't tell many people was that she was going to just completely leave and run away exactly and do you think she'd have told maybe one person and see that's another thing that always gets me yeah this is not a woman who you know didn't have friends wasn't sharing information with a multitude of people yeah but yet the one thing she's actually going to do according to john anyway she decides to completely keep hidden from everyone she knows

[Mike Gibson]

just tell him that she's leaving yes yeah the one person she's not comfortable

[Mike Ferguson]

being around the jury also heard from ann's daughter joanne who was one of the last people to see her alive and picked her up from school on april twenty second then picked up her brother glenn then the youngest daughter caitlin from a girl scouts meeting she drove them to see their father according joanne as quoted by the signal she told us that she needed to talk to my dad and we were to go in the house and wait and parked in the garage she stayed in the car and the kids went inside john came outside and talked to ann through the open window about fifteen minutes later joanne went into the garage and saw them still talking according to joanne it seemed like a normal talk and they appeared to be getting along she asked when they were going to eat ann said she was going to mcdonald's to get them food joanne went back inside then john came into the house and announced he was going to get them food she never saw ann leave the driveway and that's a that's an interesting

[Mike Gibson]

statement yeah but we know she did based on what the neighbor said but here's a here's the one daughter saying look mom said she was going to go get his food and then next thing i know dad's coming in and said nope he's going to go get get us food and that's the last thing that she recalls and we know from the neighbor both of them went down the road you know she said she was going to go to mcdonald's we don't know what his intentions were besides what he told the kids but we know that he was focused and didn't want to stop for the neighbor

[Mike Ferguson]

joanne testified that she didn't have a clear recollection of how long john was gone but the food was cold when he returned joanne said she expected her mother to return to pick them up because they were going to have pizza in the new apartment that night instead they spent the night with their dad without their clothes or backpacks with their school supplies which were left in ann's car so that's another thing right you would have to believe that ann left her children and took all their school books their backpacks all their school supplies all that stuff with her yeah when she didn't need to she could have left that behind right now you know

[Mike Gibson]

she talks about how they were supposed to go back to the new apartment have pizza and when they check in apartment they found pizza in there now how'd that get there was that place before they left was that something that somebody you know knew that the kids thought they were going to have pizza when they came home and went out and placed it in the apartment yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

it's a great question on april twenty third joanne returned to her dad's home to find the school books backpacks and her makeup kit that she left in ann's car on the kitchen table john claimed ann dropped them all so now you have to believe that ann ran away and at some point she realized she had all the kids stuff and she came back to john's house and said here's all the kid's stuff yeah

[Mike Gibson]

this is where all his stories don't

[Mike Ferguson]

add up and it's where just nothing really makes sense it just doesn't john told her that ann told him they wanted to stay with him and she went away to think but he gave no further details joanne worried about her mother and called friends and family later that day joanne testified she was worried because they had just moved and she knew ann was not planning a trip anytime soon she didn't believe her dad and she persistently questioned him about where ann might be she was so frustrated that she theorized her mom must be dead during a may nineteen ninety one interview with investigators wow and i think that says a lot if you're investigator it does into the mindset of you know the child that she's of the opinion no way mom would leave she must be dead in the months and years that followed anne's disappearance her dad showed little interest in anne's whereabouts and efforts to assist investigators he told joanne to let it go and repeated the claim that ann abandoned the family and i don't know gibbs i've never been divorced i understand that it could be really tough but i feel like even if the divorce was contentious yeah if that person was missing knowing that they're still the mother of your children at some point you'd have to put any animosity you had aside and you'd have to be worried about her of course

[Mike Gibson]

well and you have a history with that person and secondly like you more and more importantly that's the mother of

[Mike Ferguson]

your kids and to tell your daughter to let it go how are you just gonna let it go that mom is no longer around you can't say

[Mike Gibson]

something like that you shouldn't say something

[Mike Ferguson]

like that john told joanne that he met with ann on april twenty third and april twenty fourth however joanne didn't think it was in john's character to have given ann thousands of dollars because he was said to be extremely frugal and i am looking at someone who i know is extremely frugal and i don't even know if frugal captures it so if you had any type of story that revolved around you giving someone you know especially your ex wife thousands and thousands of dollars willingly color me

[Mike Gibson]

skeptical you used the word willingly yeah

[Mike Ferguson]

aside from any court ordered money that you have to give her there's a big difference there is a big difference there but you know what i'm saying like if you came to me and said i gave her some money to go take a trip and nobody's ever heard from her again yeah yeah i'm probably going to be testifying at your

[Mike Gibson]

trial yeah you're like here's a number to a good defense attorney because that

[Mike Ferguson]

story's not adding up at all i got to be honest with you when

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[Mike Ferguson]

judith carter a divorce lawyer and personal friend of ann's testified that ann said she didn't love john and had told him so but she was still afraid of him when asked how john responded to ann's confession that she didn't love him carter testified that ann told her he was trying to change but it was too late and she wanted out of the marriage ann talked to carter about an argument she and john had in the summer of nineteen ninety john was so angry he broke his hand by pushing on the door which scared ann i do think ann was scared you know based on all the different things she said now could she have been lying yeah i guess possibly but she was confiding in a lot of different people including a pastor her pastor

[Mike Gibson]

yeah i mean there's a lot of

[Mike Ferguson]

people that knew and are corroborating her story right you know whose story is not able to be corroborated yeah john john's nancy newhall a valencia resident who knew ann through the hoa testified that on april twenty fifth nineteen ninety one she saw ann driving near the intersection of wiley canyon road and lyons avenue in newhall they acknowledged each other however it seems that this remains an unconfirmed

[Mike Gibson]

sighting yeah people can be confused on what they see when they saw it

[Mike Ferguson]

and who they thought it was they thought it was somebody and it turns out not to be the jury later heard from ann and john's other children glenn and caitlyn who testified about their experiences with john after their mom went missing in closing arguments the prosecution told the jury that john's story just doesn't work john was the only one with the motive means and opportunity to kill ann john didn't want her to get half of the estate and he knew of her affair with robert russell prosecutor beth silverman argued that john followed ann to mcdonald's and he knew of the undeveloped area near the mcdonald's and he had all week to dispose of the body he had plenty of time to set up a cover up man so many times gibbs it just comes back to love hate divorce custody money yeah so many stories do it's like a repeat well money is such a big thing it is to so many people now i'm still surprised that so many people decide to kill for money i understand money's important but to kill for it but to make the decision that it's more important than somebody's life that's

[Mike Gibson]

a tough one point especially somebody you're supposed to have loved at one point or still love and you have kids

[Mike Ferguson]

with them so you are taking away if you're the killer your kids mom yeah and you're changing the trajectory of their life and altering it not in a good way no there's no way it's in a good way the defense argued that there wasn't enough evidence to convict john beyond a reasonable doubt the investigation was incomplete and john was blamed from the beginning they also pointed out inconsistencies and witness statements throughout the case and i'll be honest you know this is a pretty much a circumstantial case they can't one hundred percent gibbs say that ann is dead now you can theorize it by the fact that nobody has seen or heard from her since nineteen ninety one in the prosecution's rebuttal deputy da john lewin called joanne rotts one of the heroes in this case lewin said does anybody think that if there was any way joanne could have provided something to help her father she would have provided it she got up here and told you what happened lewin noted that glenn's testimony differed from his siblings and that he was not going to say anything that would hurt his dad's case lewin also argued that the defense poisoned the minds of the children with the letters between ann and her lover robert russell so it's interesting right you've got three children right one gets up on the stand and appears to be pretty accurate in in saying what they know to have happened the older more mature one yeah now you have someone who doesn't want to hurt their dad's case right it's kind of hard for me to fault you know someone in that position i mean who wants to see either of their parents go

[Mike Gibson]

to jail really no i mean it's your mom and your dad you love them both right you don't want to

[Mike Ferguson]

hurt either one and i'm sure there's a doubt right or you may be sure that your dad would not have

[Mike Gibson]

done it well if the defense attorneys are going to read you these letters that your mom wrote some other guy that could put some doubt in your head like why would she talk to that guy like this why would she say things like that why would she

[Mike Ferguson]

want to hurt dad on august twenty second two thousand seven john rotz was convicted of first degree murder deputy da beth silverman said outside court per the monterey herald given that she had filed for divorce moved out of her husband's house four days before she disappeared served him with papers three days before she disappeared and told a number of her friends how afraid she was of him yeah i think it was a fairly compelling case well said yeah i think it is now defense attorney philip israel's argued that john was at a disadvantage because he was charged many years after the alleged crime he said i think the fact is that after sixteen years there were witnesses that were lost there was an investigation that was almost impossible to do israel noted that the absence of the body was one of several important elements missing from the prosecution's case he said there was no crime scene there was no murder weapon there were no witnesses and no opportunity now there were no witnesses to the actual murder right but i would argue with the fact that there was no opportunity and there were witnesses right the neighbor saw him pull out right after ann that's right going the same way the kid said he said he was going to mcdonald's right after anne said she was going to mcdonald's so there were some witnesses but i think he's saying there's no body so you don't know how she died there were no witnesses to the crime and that that is all

[Mike Gibson]

true and you can say there's no murder weapon like he said but we don't know what the murder weapon would be because we don't have a body

[Mike Ferguson]

but sometimes that's those are things that a jury really wants to know first of all prove to us that she's dead now after sixteen years i think some jury members can easily believe hey this person is not alive but there's going to be people that have trouble with that yeah on september fourteenth two thousand five john was sentenced to twenty five years to life in prison he said in court all my life i tried to be a good husband to ann my wife and she's still my wife when ann left she left on her own i did not kill my wife i raised my children the best i could i'm a good father i love ann and i love my children well and honestly what else is the guy going to say yeah even if he did do it there's no reason for him to come out and say

[Mike Gibson]

he did it if ann did run away which is unlikely i think it's unlikely let's say she did she doesn't seem like the type of person that would allow her children's father to be arrested and charged with murder and sent to jail that's a great point right i mean she just didn't seem like that was her personality well that's a

[Mike Ferguson]

great point because you would have to believe that she was okay with that because i'm sure she would have been following the news she was okay with this this new boyfriend who she obviously had a great deal of affection for she planned on moving in with him never talking to him again and she would be okay with never talking to her kids again and this is kind of the problem i have is that if you run if you want to run away run away but why does that have to preclude you from reaching out to your children and saying hey just want you to know i had to get away i can't do it anymore i still love you but i'm okay and the same with her boyfriend or whatever that's why it just doesn't

[Mike Gibson]

make sense that she would just run away because she adored her kids everybody said so and she would not want to put them through that she's possibly missing and then turn around and have them have to go through the rest of their days knowing that their dad's locked up in prison yeah yeah and

[Mike Ferguson]

that's why i just don't believe that that's the case most of the time you know as we wrap this one up gibbs this is a case where the prosecution relied heavily on circumstantial evidence but as they stated in their argument john was the only one with the motive means and opportunity to kill his wife and i think they they also had you know all these people who came forward to talk about how ann expressed fear that her husband would kill her and i'm sure all of that right went a long way with the jury i i do think this is a case depending on the jury makeup it's not a slam dunk that you're going to get a conviction in this

[Mike Gibson]

type of case no it's a it's a tough way to go i could

[Mike Ferguson]

easily see one juror holding out because they they're just not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt they want that smoking gun type of evidence and this case just doesn't have it yeah although this case is technically solved as of the airing of this episode an's body still has never been found i just think gibbs you know if he did do it as he was convicted right of having killed her i do think it was about control it was about money he was mad she was leaving him he was mad that she was moving on with this other man i mean we see it time and time again some of these people just cannot handle the fact that they're losing control someone doesn't want to be with them anymore i get it it's a bad situation but it's not the end of the world no and it's certainly no reason to kill your wife to kill the mother of your children and how you even make that decision i will never understand if we do this podcast for twenty more years i'm never going to understand it yeah just move on with your

[Mike Gibson]

life exactly exactly if this would happen today we would know more i think because all the cameras and stuff right because and you know through mcdonald's and getting into mcdonald's and back from mcdonald's and how did her car end up down at the airport i think we would have maybe some visuals to go

[Mike Ferguson]

with that yeah i'm right with you i think the the video evidence alone would probably go a long way yeah either she made it to mcdonald's he was right after her followed her out or she never made it to mcdonald's at all right and then he comes back to mcdonald's forty five minutes later or he gets the mcdonald's right then and there but doesn't come back home for like forty five minutes to an hour right you can you would have much more of a definitive timeline right

[Mike Gibson]

and same with his stories about seeing her again on the twenty third and the twenty fourth maybe that would be collaborated with you know some ring cameras

[Mike Ferguson]

or and maybe cell phone cell phone evidence actually exactly cell phone data perhaps but that's it for our episode on ann rots we got a voicemail you want to check that out let's hear

[Julie]

it hi micah gibby it's julie calling from hamilton ontario canada i'm just to your jewel guy junior podcast and i just wanted to say while i was watching that trial live on tv i know it's a weird thing to do but for some reason i enjoy watching live trials someone had mentioned the reason he didn't have time to clean everything up finish everything he wanted to do including get rid of that notebook was because it took him longer than he had anticipated and he thinks that somebody may have gotten a little suspicious and he ran out of time to clean up before people started to notice that his parents were missing so that made a lot of sense to me but it also made sense that yeah he probably did get really cut up during all of the the stabbing that he was doing but yeah i just found that interesting too that you know you go to such lengths to leave a notebook for yourself of all the things you need to do and then you don't clean up and leave all the evidence at points to yourself so yeah i just wanted to call in and leave that message i love you guys your banter is amazing and yeah keep up the good work and keep your own time ticking have a great day

[Mike Ferguson]

bye all right thanks for the voicemail we love you too do yeah it makes a lot of sense yeah right to detail out everything in this notebook but then follow some of it and not all of it yeah maybe it's because he didn't have time yeah felt rushed do you sometimes feel rushed i

[Mike Gibson]

do during coitus especially during quartus cortisol

[Mike Ferguson]

oh i guess with that we probably just should probably should leave it all right buddy that is it for another episode of true crime all the time so for mike and gibby stay safe and keep your own time ticking

[Kiana]

hey

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