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- [00:00]
A
You know, for Gibby and I, starting the podcast was a big deal. Well, starting your own business is a big deal. And there's a lot you need to know from day one. One company that makes everything easier is Shopify. We use it for all of our podcast merch. Shopify powers millions of businesses worldwide. From household names like Mattel and Gymshark to small businesses just getting started. Shopify has the templates and AI tools you need to get a stunning site up and running fast and no coding needed. Shopify checkout means more customers actually buy and returning ones can do it in a single click. And if you have any questions, Shopify's built in AI assistant sidekick is ready to help you build, troubleshoot and keep moving. And Shopify has award winning 24. 7 customer service on top of that. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest. Start your free trial at shopify.com tcat start your free trial at shopify.com tcatt hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com/switch.
- [01:27]
B
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- [01:36]
A
Hello everyone and welcome to episode 511 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?
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C
Good. How about you, man?
- [01:46]
A
Doing great.
- [01:47]
C
Yeah?
- [01:47]
A
You and I are almost matchies today. We wore the same shirt. Poncho.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Yours is black. Mine is blue. But black and blue. We didn't plan it, but that's just how how it came out.
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C
Kind of how you like to eat your your steaks black and blue.
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A
Yeah, actually I do. I love blue cheese, which I know a lot of people don't, but I'm a big fan of steak and blue cheese.
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C
I am not a fan of blue cheese.
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A
All right buddy, you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?
- [02:17]
C
I am.
- [02:18]
A
We're talking about Anna Catherine Cardwell. 20 year old Anna Cardwell was murdered in her home while her mother was away running in an errand, investigators found no signs of forced entry, leading them to believe she was killed by someone she knew. Anna Catherine Cardwell was born on June 18, 1991. She lived in Slapout, Alabama, officially known as Holtville, a census designated place in Elmore County. County. According to local lore, there was once a general store owner who would reply that he was slap out of certain out of stock items.
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C
Okay.
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A
So I guess they started calling it Slap Out.
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C
Slap Out.
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A
Where do you live? I live in Slap Out.
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C
That's right. I'm gonna use it next time. I'm almost out of something.
- [03:07]
A
I'm slap out.
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C
I'm just slap out of it.
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A
But apparently it's a small rural community where everyone knows everyone.
- [03:14]
C
Imagine that.
- [03:15]
A
Yeah. And I've said it before. I did grow up in a place like that.
- [03:18]
C
Yeah.
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A
It wasn't even a town or a city. It was technically a village when I lived there. And it was small and everybody just knew everybody. It was a good place to grow up.
- [03:28]
C
It's kind of like where I'm at now. It's a village and. Yeah, everybody knows everybody.
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A
You are in the middle of nowhere.
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C
People know. I don't even know who they are. And they know. They know about me. I'm like, how do you know about me?
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A
They probably looked up your record when you moved in.
- [03:41]
C
Yeah, that might be. Yeah. Yeah.
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A
And the fact that you had to go door to door and give notice, tell everybody, have them sign something.
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C
Can I be on your WI fi too, as I walk up and down the streets because of this, you know, thing around my ankle.
- [03:58]
A
Anna Catherine lived with her mother, Paula, her father Joe, and her brother. She was described as a confident, kind hearted person. Family friend Melinda Peavey recalled about her. I don't think she knew a stranger. If you were a stranger, she would make you into a friend. You couldn't ignore her. That's how her personality was.
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C
There's people like that, man.
- [04:20]
A
There are.
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C
They're very open and welcoming.
- [04:23]
A
Yeah. You know, I. I talk about my wife a lot. My wife is very shy with people, you know, she doesn't know. Not once she knows. She'll open up, she'll talk, but it takes. She's just not the life of the party. She's not going to go from stranger to stranger, introducing herself. That's just not the way she is. A lot of people are like that. But like you said, a lot of people are like this as well. They can make friends super easy and just talk to anybody and blend in quickly.
- [04:59]
C
You're A good blender.
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A
I can be. I don't like to.
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C
Yes. That's the strange thing.
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A
That's the weird thing about it.
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C
You don't like it. But I, I think maybe because of, you know, you, you climbing up the corporate structure that you did throughout the years that you learned it was something you learned you had to do. I don't know. Yeah.
- [05:19]
A
I don't know what I mean. And I shouldn't say I don't like it. I do like to talk to people and like, when we go to CrimeCon, I have a lot of fun.
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C
Oh, you love that. Yeah.
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A
But I, I, I wouldn't want to do that every day.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You know, I'm a very private person and I like my me time and all that.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Paula said in, in an interview for the show the Killer Among Us, Anna was who she was and she was proud of it. And I love that confidence about her and that ability to have such good self image.
- [05:53]
C
There's, people are just, they're unapologetic about who they are. You know, it's me, take, take me. Love me or don't love me, I don't care. I'm going to be who I am.
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A
Yeah. But also they're happy with who they are.
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C
Yes.
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A
Which is amazing if you can be like that because let's face it, a lot of us aren't always happy. No. With us.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Right. Self, image, self worth, all of those things, you know, people can struggle with at times.
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C
I have an issue with that. But Rex west, man, he's out there. He's just whipping along, you know, just.
- [06:29]
A
You say whipping it along, he's literally whipping it along.
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C
Okay. It's, it's a, it's a wild, wild west reference.
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A
I, I thought maybe you were going for a figure of speech, but now I think you were being much more literal, knowing the line of work that Rex west is in. But because Slap out is such a small community, it was said that most of the local teens hang out with each other, even if they go to different schools. Anna Catherine hung out with a couple of different friend groups, and she had a core group of close friends. Her best friend was a girl named Lacey. Lacy and Anna Catherine told each other everything. Did you have one best, best friend growing up or just like a group of friends?
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C
I had a group of friends. Yeah.
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A
I had a group of friends. But I, I have had a best friend since I was, we were like six years old.
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C
Yeah. I mean, you talk to him pretty regular.
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A
Yeah. And now here we are. You know, 45 years later, still. Still best friends.
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C
He lives fairly close.
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A
He does. He lives, like, one town over. He lives in the town that I grew up in.
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C
Yeah, he's still there.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah, he still lives there. Anna Catherine graduated high school in 2010. She decided she wanted to pursue a career as a teacher. And I know I've said it on the podcast before, but my whole family, most of my family comes from that profession. My dad, my stepmom, my wife's a teacher. My oldest daughter is now working at a. In a school as a language speech pathologist. I sometimes say that wrong. Hopefully I got it right.
- [08:14]
C
I did professor work.
- [08:16]
A
Well, of course. I mean, you've worked in a lot of academic institutions. Yeah, but, you know, I was talking about me, so.
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C
Yeah, I just thought I'd add it in there.
- [08:26]
A
Just messing with you. But I, I do have had a lot of teachers in my. In my family. At the time of her death, Anna Catherine was a sophomore at Southern Union Junior College. Paula Cardwell said about her daughter's school choice, the most important things to Anna Catherine were her family, her friends. When she graduated from high school, she wanted to follow her friends and go to Southern Union. And I think a lot of people do that. I mean, if you don't, if you're not set on, like, a specific college, you know, maybe you just go where some of your friends are going. Yeah, I followed a girl to college, and we broke up before senior year was even over of high school.
- [09:11]
C
But you already committed to that university.
- [09:13]
A
Yeah, so I went. And I mean, I did have some friends going there too, but. Yeah, you know, we all make strange decisions.
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C
We do, that's for sure. And I, you know, the university I went to, I went because it was close to, close to. After I came back from all the
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A
other ones that I. Yeah, yeah. You know, you went slumming later on just to see what it was.
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C
I wanted to see what it was like to stay close to home, you know, and I did. And because I had a lot of buddies there, you know, it just made, you know, a comfort level, even though
- [09:44]
A
by that point you were a lawyer, a doctor. Yeah, A proctologist. I know you did some of that work. I don't know if it was licensed or not, but people didn't ask, really.
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C
They were just happy to have someone,
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A
you know, you know, to talk to,
- [10:00]
C
talk to and to take a look.
- [10:03]
A
Hey, Doc, can you take a look at this? You think doctors get that a ton. Like, you just had a party. Somebody knows you're A doctor like, man, I got this. Can you, can you take a look at this?
- [10:12]
C
I think they probably still do. Like I think people are, that they're not shy to ask for.
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A
Now maybe proctologists get that a little bit less than I would, I would hope, general physicians.
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C
Can we go in this guest room, take a peek real quick?
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A
You know it, it'll only take a minute.
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C
You don't need your gloves. It's okay.
- [10:32]
A
Anna Catherine moved back home during her sophomore year of college for unspecified reasons, but she was still attending classes. And that's another thing that, that a lot of kids do, right. They go off to school, it's fun, it's exciting, but at a certain point, maybe they move back home and they either still attend classes at the same school if that school wasn't very far away, or they switched to a different school that's closer to home. I did that mainly because I was not doing too well at the place I went because I didn't go to class.
- [11:07]
C
But you just like my brother went to the same university you did and he moved back home too, because you both decided to go to the number one party school in the United States at that time.
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A
We did, we did.
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C
And that's going to happen, you know, you're not going to study, you're going to party.
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A
And I did and, you know, ended up coming home and. But I met my wife at the job that I got when I came home while I was going to school. See, so everything works out. That's what I tell people.
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C
Yeah.
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A
You may think at the time that it's, it's not a great thing that's happening.
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C
Yeah.
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A
But later on you may look back at it as, oh, if that hadn't happened. I don't mean my wife.
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C
That was your destiny.
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A
Yeah, we talk about it all the time.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Around the time of her murder, Anna Catherine had recently broken up with her long term boyfriend, Todd. They were together for about a year. Things were still amicable between them after the breakup. And I said long term, you know, at that age, that's pretty long term. Sure is for, you know, if you're 18, 19 years old, that's a long term relationship. Paula recalled, Anna Catherine liked the guys that were fun, that were polite, that were good to her, that were good to her family and her friends. And if they weren't, she just wouldn't stay with them.
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C
She didn't like the bag. The bad boys.
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A
The bad boys. Some girls like the bad boys, some
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C
girls do like the bad boys.
- [12:30]
A
But you, you you know, listen to the things that I read. That's the type of guy that you would want your daughter to date. You want them to be polite, you want them to treat her correctly and you want them to be nice to her friends. You as the family, that's the kind of guy you want them to be with. Anna Catherine was dating a guy named Nick. She and Nick got along well and enjoyed each other's company. Anna Catherine told others that Nick was a good looking guy who was kinder. Nick had told Paula that Anna Catherine was the sweetest girl that he had ever met.
- [13:11]
C
Saying the right stuff.
- [13:12]
A
Yeah. Anna Catherine's friend Lindsay McBrayer recalled that she was head over heels for Nick. So it sounded like they were getting along great. The last time Nick saw Anna Catherine was on February 14, 2012. Nick came over to the house to spend time with Anna that Valentine's Day evening. He was there until about 2am Paula recalled that she knew Nick had to work the next day. She told the couple that it was getting late and Anna Catherine needed to go to bed. So Anna Catherine said okay. And soon after, Paula heard a door close indicating Nick had left. And you know parents who have kids that age at home, everybody's familiar with that. Yeah, the boyfriend or the girlfriend's gonna come over, they're gonna hang out and at some point you're probably gonna have to tell them, hey, it's late, get the you know what out of my house. Not like that, but I mean, I might say that at the road. Man, most people wouldn't say it that
- [14:09]
C
way, but find the pavement.
- [14:10]
A
Yeah, I got lucky because like I said, my daughter, my oldest daughter just got married. She started dating this guy when they were in like the ninth grade. So, you know, he's been a good guy. I've known him for, you know, almost 10 years now. So yeah, never really had to get on them. They were just good kids.
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C
Just good kids all the way around.
- [14:31]
A
Still are. On February 15, 2012, Paula had the day off. Anna Catherine was sleeping in because she didn't have class that day. Around 9:15am Paula poked her head into Anna Catherine's room to check on her and then left to run errands. Anna Catherine's brother was working in a different city about 45 minutes away. Her father was up north on a business trip. Paula returned about an hour later and the first thing she noticed was that Anna Catherine's car was gone. Paula recalled that when she entered through the back door, she saw blood everywhere as well as bloody footprints headed to the kitchen. And then it wasn't far into the kitchen where her daughter was laying there on the floor.
- [15:20]
C
Man.
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A
Anna Catherine was dead and appeared to have suffered a gunshot wound to the head. And we talked. We talk often, right. About people discovering bodies. Now, sometimes it's not someone, you know, Sometimes it's a loved one. I mean, I cannot imagine what it must be like to find your child.
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C
No.
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A
In this condition, I don't know how
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C
you function from that moment on.
- [15:51]
A
No, no. I just. And everybody who's listening or watching, I'm sure they're having that same thought.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Because it's hard not to. When you go through these true crime cases, it's really hard not to put yourself in the position of some of these people. What must that have been like? How would I react? And I think a lot of people would. It would be hard for them to function.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And they would just be. They'd be broken.
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C
Almost feel like it. Be like a out of body experience.
- [16:22]
A
Yeah. You know, like it's happening, but it's not really happening to me. It's almost like I'm watching it happen. I. I can imagine for some people it would be something like that. And obviously, Paula was extremely distraught when deputies arrived. She kept trying to call her husband to tell him what had happened. As soon as she got in touch with him, he immediately got on a plane to go home. But all of the family members were quickly ruled out as potential suspects. There were no signs of forced entry, leading investigators to suspect she was killed by someone she knew. Anna Catherine was still in her pajamas, indicating she likely woke up sometime after her mom left the house to answer the door and was attacked. And, you know, the lack of. Or the signs of forced entry. Yeah, it is always a big thing in these types of cases because, you know, by and large, the lack of forced entry does seem to indicate that, you know, the person knew their attacker. Now, it doesn't have to mean that.
- [17:32]
C
No. But I think percentage wise.
- [17:35]
A
Yeah.
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C
It leans more towards that.
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A
Yeah. Now, is it possible that somebody left the door unlocked? Yeah. And somebody just happened to come along and find out that the door was unlocked and they slipped in? It is, but, I mean, that's. That's pretty random.
- [17:50]
C
It is.
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A
Besides the blood, the rest of the house was clean and orderly. Nothing appeared to be damaged. Detective Troy Evans said in his interview for the show that the killer among us. The blood trail is telling us that as she's running, she's bleeding, the blood is striking the ground, and you can tell her Movements from just being able to look at the blood patterns and see where she had gone. We've been talking about blood a lot in recent episodes. And blood spatter, cast off patterns. You know, the science behind it is fascinating. It is to me, when you think about analyzing a blood droplet, if that's the right term, how it lands, what it looks like, and judging whether a person was going this way or this way or they were standing still. I mean, that type of science is really fascinating.
- [18:47]
C
There's so much involved in that, you know, with velocity and the, the like,
- [18:53]
A
what it looks like, the tail versus the head of it. And they can tell, you know, oh, well, obviously she was heading this way. And again, if I was 19 years old, I think I would go into
- [19:05]
C
something like that, into the science of
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A
it, because it is absolutely fascinating.
- [19:10]
C
You would have made it. Made a pretty decent CSI person.
- [19:14]
A
Yeah, I think I would have been good on the show, too. Okay, Gibbs, Gibbs, exactly. Investigators believe that Anna Catherine was shot in the hallway and began to run through the house and then tried to escape out the garage door. She left a bloody handprint on the wall beside the door. She almost escaped, but was dragged back into the kitchen where the killer file fired the fatal shot. And obviously your heart goes out to her.
- [19:47]
C
Yeah.
- [19:48]
A
Just imagining this situation, right? You're attacked, you're shot, you're trying to flee. And it's almost like a movie. You get right to the edge or right to the precipice. You're almost out and somebody drags you back in.
- [20:05]
C
I mean, how many times have you been to the precipice?
- [20:07]
A
And I knew you were going to try to use that word. I also knew it was not going to come out correctly.
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C
Sorry.
- [20:17]
A
We need to start selling bingo cards that people can play a little bingo game of what is. What are we gonna say? How are we gonna mess up?
- [20:28]
C
But yeah, I mean, you're right. It's just like one of the. You see him in the movies all the time. Yeah. She's gonna get it, she's gonna make it. She's gonna make it.
- [20:35]
A
And then somebody, you know, snatches the person right as they're getting ready to. To get out the door. That sounds like what they believe happened here, right? Let me ask you a question. What are you looking for in a bank? Are you looking for a stuffy bank that is set in the past, doing things the way things have always been done? But what if you could get banking the way you wanted it? That's where chime comes in. No, more ridiculous fees. They have the option to get your paycheck early. Chime is a bank that's on your side. Changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking. They don't charge you overdraft and monthly fees. They have thousands of fee free ATMs where why would you pay to get your own money? Chime is built for you not the 1% and you can get 5% cash back using the Chime card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries. Man I wish Chime was around when I was in my 20s because I just remember paying so many fees to bank. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com tcat and that's chime.com tcatt it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech not a bank. Banking services for Chime card provided by Chime's bank Partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. For more information go to chime.com disclosures
- [22:05]
B
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- [22:35]
A
The murder weapon was determined to be a 9 millimeter handgun. Anna Catherine's autopsy determined she was shot four times. Twice in the back, once in the chest, and then once in the back of the head. Just brutal.
- [22:50]
C
It really is. I mean if you think about it, I mean, three of the shots from behind. So is that because she was fleeing or is that because they don't want to look at her in the. In the face?
- [23:04]
A
Yeah, I mean once in the chest. So that was. That would have been face to face. I'm assuming the back of the head was the final shot.
- [23:12]
C
The fatal.
- [23:13]
A
The fatal shot. Investigators wanted to talk to Paula again, but she was still in shock, Paula recalled in her interview. It's like you're just frozen and you don't know what to do and you just do something. A detective just asked me was there anything that I noticed that was missing. Paula pointed out that Anna Catherine's Honda Civic was missing. Paula began calling close family and friends. And soon there was a small crowd gathered outside the home. And that's actually a pretty big clue. The. The car is missing.
- [23:48]
C
Yeah.
- [23:49]
A
It's not like there was a locket taken.
- [23:52]
C
Something small that can be concealed easily. Right.
- [23:56]
A
The. The Honda, they're going to be able to figure out the license plate. They're going to be able to put out a BOLO on it or, or whatever. There's a good chance somebody might spot it today. There's a great chance with all the cameras. Cameras and the license plate readers and all that. Law enforcement used this opportunity of all these people gathering to conduct interviews. They focused on Anna Catherine's friends, most of whom showed up as soon as they received news of the murder. Anna Catherine's best friend, Lacey, was distraught, but couldn't tell investigators anyone she suspected of being the killer. And we talked about this girl, Gibbs.
- [24:39]
C
Yeah.
- [24:39]
A
She was very friendly. She was well liked. You know, her friends said she didn't have problems with anyone.
- [24:48]
C
She got along with everybody.
- [24:50]
A
So who would want to kill her? And it was upsetting to her friends. Right. To think that someone among the. The gathered friends and family either knew something or could actually be the killer.
- [25:04]
C
Yeah.
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A
So think about that. Number one. You're shocked and you're heartbroken to hear this news. You show up at the home, everybody's outside, and at some point, it dawns on people that, you know, you're looking around, hey, one of us is very likely the killer.
- [25:24]
C
Yeah. Like you said, we know that the killers like to return to the scene and see what's going on with the investigation.
- [25:34]
A
They do. But in this case, I'm thinking if it's a close friend or something like that, you also don't want to skip out on it because you don't want to be the only person not there that's going to stick out like a sore thumb.
- [25:48]
C
You don't show up, there's a problem.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, the police are going to make a note of that for sure. Anna's ex boyfriend, Todd, was among the crowd, but Nick was not. Because Nick was the new guy in their friend group. He received the most suspicion. And I get it. He's also like the current.
- [26:09]
C
Right.
- [26:10]
A
Boyfriend. Right. So that would make sense as well. Police got Nick's name and number from Anna Catherine's friends. Nick agreed to meet with investigators that afternoon. He appeared distraught and didn't seem to be hiding anything. He was forthcoming with his alibi. He said that on Valentine's Day, they decided to be an official couple. He came to the House to spend time with Anna Catherine and was there until 2am Official couple.
- [26:42]
C
You remember those type of conversations?
- [26:46]
A
Yeah, I don't remember ever calling it an official couple, but it was, hey, do you want to go steady? I think that was a word that was used back in the day. Or be boyfriend, girlfriend, or whatever it was.
- [26:58]
C
We gonna do this thing or not?
- [26:59]
A
I'm sure that's how you approached it. Just walking up to strangers. How you doing?
- [27:04]
C
That's right.
- [27:07]
A
Yeah, I was a little more subtle maybe than you were, but Anna Catherine's phone record showed that she texted Nick shortly after he left her home. She expressed her appreciation for the flowers he brought and for spending time with her and wrote, you're amazing and you make me so super happy. Okay.
- [27:28]
C
Yeah.
- [27:29]
A
Nothing there that would make you think that there's anything going on, that he would have any reason to want to hurt this girl. Right. No. Brand new relationship just starting. They seem totally fine, if not euphoric. Right. You're in that, that new stage.
- [27:49]
C
That's what you kind of want. You know, you're with your girl till 2am, you leave and you get this nice text. You're going to sleep pretty good that night.
- [27:56]
A
Yeah, I would think so. Nick said that on the morning of the 15th, he was at home asleep. He was woken up by a call telling him what happened to Anna Catherine and that that has to be a very tough call to get.
- [28:08]
C
It would be very difficult.
- [28:10]
A
He was home alone that morning. Meaning there was no one else who could verify his alibi. But investigators believed he was being truthful, but he couldn't be completely ruled out. Although police now wanted to talk to Anna Catherine's ex boyfriend. Top. And you know, just thinking about all the cases that we do. Yeah, the current boyfriend has to be looked at, but this relationship is like days old. A day old, you know?
- [28:38]
C
Yeah.
- [28:39]
A
Officially. You would think maybe an X or something like that would be a little bit higher up on the. The list of scrutiny or whatever you
- [28:51]
C
want to call it. You got to think about, you know, were they jealous?
- [28:54]
A
You're right.
- [28:55]
C
Were they a sad or sore loser? Basically, you know, I mean, it's not
- [29:01]
A
like, you know, they've been together for years or they're married or something like that. Yeah. That's when maybe motives start to. What would be the motive of wanting to kill your girlfriend when you just became a couple? There's very little motive there.
- [29:18]
C
Yeah. Unless you found out she was cheating.
- [29:21]
A
You know, since you left the house at 2am you know what I'm saying, yeah, but now an ex boyfriend and you kind of hit on it. Maybe there's the jealousy factor and all of that. Todd's father is a well respected businessman in Elmore County. His family is well known, and there was nothing out of the ordinary to raise suspicion. Police learned that Todd and Anna Catherine were still in touch after the breakup. Todd texted her on Valentine's Day. According to Paula, Anna Catherine was excited. Todd reached out and she suspected her daughter still had feelings for him.
- [29:58]
C
That can happen. I think they dated slightly over a year. So, I mean, yeah, it's hard just to shut that off. Unless someone's, I got a major prick to you.
- [30:06]
A
Yeah. Or you got cheated on. Or there was a big blow up. Yeah. The feelings, maybe it's. You can't just turn it off like a faucet sometimes.
- [30:16]
C
I mean, you're still gonna have some. Some feelings.
- [30:18]
A
Yeah. But Todd was brought in. He gave a statement. According to him, the breakup was amicable. He said that on February 15, he was at college about an hour away. And police were able to verify his alibi, eliminating Todd as a suspect.
- [30:34]
C
So Todd's out.
- [30:35]
A
Todd's out. At 5pm on Feb. 15, police located Anna Catherine's missing car in the parking lot of a Winn Dixie about 10 miles away.
- [30:45]
C
Wind Dixie, man.
- [30:48]
A
While authorities were processing the car, officers brought Anna Catherine's best friend Lacey in for a second interview to see if she could tell them anything else. And what else are they going to do? Right? They got to talk to all these friends, see what they know.
- [31:03]
C
Yeah.
- [31:04]
A
You know, kind of reminds me a little bit of, of Silence of Lambs. You know how much I love that movie.
- [31:09]
C
You do.
- [31:10]
A
But you know, in the end, and I'm not spoiling it, because if you haven't watched it, that's on you. But Jody Foster kind of breaks the case wide open by going back and talking to one of the victim's friends and she gets some information.
- [31:24]
C
Yeah.
- [31:24]
A
Because who knows? You like your friends. You're really good friends.
- [31:28]
C
That's true.
- [31:30]
A
You could say parents. But kids don't tell parents everything.
- [31:33]
C
They don't.
- [31:34]
A
And they certainly don't tell them certain things that, you know, they might tell a best friend. So I think that's a really good move.
- [31:42]
C
Yeah.
- [31:43]
A
Is to, you know, keep interviewing the friends. Lacey shared that she texted Anna Catherine in the morning, but she never received a reply. She didn't think this was strange because Anna Catherine liked to sleep in when she could.
- [31:57]
C
Oh, just like you.
- [31:58]
A
Yeah, man, I love to sleep in.
- [32:00]
C
Yeah, you do.
- [32:01]
A
You know who else does? My oldest daughter.
- [32:04]
C
Oh.
- [32:04]
A
And when, now that she's off for the summer, she is taking full advantage.
- [32:09]
C
It's just a sleep fest here and
- [32:11]
A
I don't, I don't blame her. I don't blame her.
- [32:13]
C
Unless you're, you have the white. You know your wife likes to vacuum like 8 o' clock in the morning because she's not happy that you guys are still sleeping and she's up.
- [32:20]
A
Ah, she don't do that.
- [32:21]
C
That's good.
- [32:23]
A
She don't do that. She's pretty respectful of the sleep because she likes her own sleep.
- [32:27]
C
Well, that's true.
- [32:28]
A
And she likes to take naps during the day so she wouldn't want anyone messing with her nap.
- [32:32]
C
Yeah, that's true. Payback would be, as they say, a.
- [32:36]
A
Yeah, it would be. When Lacy learned what happened, she called her boyfriend 22 year old Joss. Joss or Josh.
- [32:45]
C
He normally goes by Josh.
- [32:46]
A
I think he does.
- [32:47]
C
Yeah.
- [32:48]
A
Kissberry. Josh did not show up to Anna Catherine's house. Lacy said that was because she had ended their relationship. Okay, maybe. Right. Maybe that would be too awkward.
- [32:59]
C
Yeah.
- [33:00]
A
You had this relationship, it's now over. You know, Lacey's going to be there, so maybe you don't want to show up. According to friends, Lacy introduced Anna Catherine to Josh. After they started dating. Anna Catherine hung out with the couple often. They were sometimes joined by Josh's roommate, 22 year old Cody Abernathy. Cody was more subdued while Josh was more extroverted. But everyone in the group seemed to get along well because they liked to goof off. Friends described Lacy and Josh's relationship as rocky and on again, off again. They broke up often.
- [33:39]
C
Oh man. I mean people, I mean I knew I had a couple like that.
- [33:43]
A
Yeah.
- [33:43]
C
I mean you're like, can you guys just end it because you guys do not belong together.
- [33:49]
A
Pick a lane, pick a lane. But you know those, those teenage relationships for a lot of people are like that.
- [33:56]
C
Yeah, right.
- [33:58]
A
You're so in love at that, at that point. But you can't stand each other. You break up and then you're like, oh, I missed that person or whatever it is that causes that kind of back and forth, on again, off again part.
- [34:12]
C
The love hate thing.
- [34:14]
A
Yeah. Well, on the outside it looked like everyone was happy. There were some underlying tensions in the friend group. Anna Catherine didn't think Josh was good for Lacy and thought she deserved better.
- [34:27]
C
As a lot of friends do for their best buddy.
- [34:30]
A
Yeah. I mean when you love someone that much, you Got, you know, this great friend. If you don't think that the person they're with is right for them, you might tell them that.
- [34:43]
C
Sure.
- [34:43]
A
That's something that a best friend might
- [34:45]
C
say and can say most of the time and be okay still.
- [34:49]
A
Yeah. Now, if you. You're just like a. A fringe friend, you probably wouldn't say that.
- [34:55]
C
No.
- [34:55]
A
But a best friend probably would. According to her friend Lindsay McBrayer, Anna definitely had high standards for her friends as far as she wanted them to have a guy who treated them right, loved them for who they were, treated them how they were supposed to be treated, with respect. And I kind of made a big deal about, you know, her wanting that for herself. It's very important.
- [35:22]
C
Sure.
- [35:22]
A
You know, that's. That's what relationships should be. So I get the feeling that that's what she demanded out of her relationships, and she also thought that her friends should have that as well.
- [35:36]
C
Yeah. I mean, that's just makes sense.
- [35:38]
A
Yeah, it really does. Family friend Melinda Peavey recalled Josh and Anna would talk about Lacy. It drove Anna crazy to be in the middle of the drama. I think she was a lot more wrapped up in that drama than we
- [35:51]
C
realized and probably hated it.
- [35:53]
B
Yeah.
- [35:53]
C
You know, a lot.
- [35:54]
A
Well, when you're in the middle of something. Right. Nobody likes to be in the middle.
- [35:58]
C
No.
- [35:58]
A
Because sometimes there's no winning, and it's all downside. In her interview with the police, Lacey said that Josh wasn't happy with Anna Catherine because she convinced her to break up with Josh. And when you talk about motive. Okay, that's a motive.
- [36:17]
C
It is a motive.
- [36:18]
A
You wouldn't think you would murder someone over it, but it is a motive.
- [36:23]
C
You know, 10 years ago, I wouldn't have thought people would break up, kill somebody over something like that before we
- [36:28]
A
started doing all the research for the pot. Yeah, I'm with you.
- [36:31]
C
Yep. That's probably what happened.
- [36:33]
A
I mean, we've seen people kill for less than that.
- [36:35]
C
I know. It.
- [36:36]
A
It's shocking.
- [36:37]
C
It's. Yeah.
- [36:39]
A
Other friends confirmed that Josh blamed Anna for the breakup. Several people said the police needed to talk to him and even seemed scared of Josh. So you and I have talked about it before, and I kind of mentioned it earlier. You know, when you're that. That age, relationships seem to take on this level that is way out of proportion of what they really are. But they're real to the people who are in them.
- [37:09]
C
Yes.
- [37:10]
A
At the time, yes.
- [37:11]
C
It feels super real to them.
- [37:13]
A
I mean, it feels like the end all be all right. But when you look back on it years later, you realize it was just puppy love. Or, you know, once you get married or you find your true love, you understand what those other relationships really were. But when you're in them, they seem like everything.
- [37:34]
C
I remember having my own heart broken, you know, when I was younger and, and then my daughter and, you know, seeing that and thinking, you're gonna be fine, but. But they don't think they're gonna be fine. No. So you have to find out a better way to relay that to them so that you can help them get over it. Because you just can't say, don't worry about it. No big deal. That's not going to work.
- [37:57]
A
Even though you know it's true.
- [37:59]
C
Right.
- [37:59]
A
Because in their mind, you're wrong.
- [38:02]
C
Yeah.
- [38:03]
A
And there's nothing you can do to change it. Josh came in voluntarily for an interview. He seemed upset about Anna Catherine's death. He said that on the morning of February 15, he left his vehicle at one friend's house and called his mother to come pick him up and drop him off at another friend's house down the road. It was said that Josh did not act suspicious during his interview. Okay, make of that what you will.
- [38:31]
C
Yeah.
- [38:31]
A
You know, some people just can't control their emotions and they kind of give it away right on their face or with, with how they act. Other people, they can really put on a. A good act and snow the. Even the police who were trained to kind of sniff that stuff out. The next day, February 16, another investigator interviewed Josh's mother. She confirmed that she picked Josh up, but it was at the Winn Dixie parking lot where Anna Catherine's car was found. This effectively destroyed his alibi.
- [39:08]
C
Did more than destroy his alibi because it also placed them where the car was found.
- [39:13]
A
Doesn't make him look good.
- [39:14]
C
No, not at all.
- [39:15]
A
That's for sure. And it did mark a major turning point in the investigation. Police now had enough evidence to search the residents Josh shared with Cody Abernathy. They were hoping to find a smoking gun. Right. To charge Josh with murder. Police did find a stockpile of shotguns, rifles and pistols throughout the house. Inside a Safe, police found steroids, $21,000 in cash, and two 9 millimeter handguns. Josh was an avid bodybuilder, which explained the steroids.
- [39:51]
C
So probably has some D ball. And you know,
- [39:58]
A
if anybody knows about steroids, I, for some reason, I believe it would be you. I can just imagine you and your singlet.
- [40:06]
C
Oh, man.
- [40:07]
A
Dealing steroids, taking steroids. I don't Know what you did in your past?
- [40:11]
C
Here's your little blue little pills for your, you know, different little blue pills than you take.
- [40:15]
A
Right.
- [40:15]
C
But yeah, little blue pills and, you know, is your injectable for your joints?
- [40:19]
A
And how do you know they're blue?
- [40:20]
C
That's what D ball was, man.
- [40:22]
A
Was it?
- [40:22]
C
Oh, back in the day, back in no, late 80s, walk into any high school gym, locker room or fitness place,
- [40:32]
A
you know, and somebody was handing them out.
- [40:34]
C
They were always selling them to you.
- [40:35]
A
But you know, think about these. These are not. These guys aren't that old.
- [40:39]
C
No.
- [40:40]
A
They got $21,000 in cash.
- [40:42]
C
A lot of money in moving steroids back then.
- [40:45]
A
You got to think they're into something.
- [40:47]
C
Yeah, right.
- [40:47]
A
They got. They got a bunch of guns, steroids, $21,000 in cash. Investigators ran the serial numbers for each of the guns and. And all of them came back stolen.
- [41:00]
B
Okay.
- [41:01]
A
It's usually a bad sign.
- [41:02]
C
It is a bad sign.
- [41:03]
A
Back in November 2011, there was a home invasion robbery of a former police officer's house. The victim reported that masked men put a gun to his head and told him they were going to kill him. He was pistol whipped and the robbers stole his gun collection. That's how you get a bunch of stolen guns.
- [41:23]
C
That is how you get some of those.
- [41:25]
A
Since Anna was killed by a 9 millimeter gun, the two found in Josh's home were sent off for ballistics testing. Josh was arrested for the home invasion and brought in for a second round of questioning. And you know, again, if you are a police officer or former police officer, I have. I have a feeling that guy knew. Maybe he had the. The serial numbers of his guns written down or something.
- [41:53]
C
Yeah.
- [41:54]
A
They were probably able to match these guns and figure out they were stolen from his house in that robbery. You know, it doesn't make you look great. It's pretty good evidence when you're in possession of all the guns that were stolen during this home invasion.
- [42:11]
C
It's going to be hard to argue that one. It wasn't you.
- [42:14]
A
But I also talked about, you know, going in into like the forensics realm.
- [42:19]
C
Yeah.
- [42:19]
A
If I could go back in time, I might go into ballistics.
- [42:23]
C
Yeah. Like going forensics with a side of
- [42:26]
A
ballistics, like a side of fries. Not sure how that's how they do
- [42:30]
C
it, but going to major in this and minor in that. Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:34]
A
Just decide I'm just gonna do it on the side.
- [42:36]
B
Yeah.
- [42:36]
A
You know, so they're gonna question him for a second time. First they asked him about the home invasion Josh said his roommate Cody Abernathy was with him. So he didn't deny it. I don't know how he could. I'm pretty sure they had the evidence to, to prove that, you know, he was involved.
- [42:58]
C
Sure. Cody loved that. He got tossed into it pretty quickly.
- [43:01]
A
Yeah, but that's what we always talk about, right? You can be as tight as as you think you are with someone until the, you know, what hits the fan.
- [43:13]
C
Yeah.
- [43:14]
A
And then once somebody's ass is on the line, then there's a good chance they're going to roll on you no matter how tight the bond is.
- [43:23]
C
Whatever happened to that, what's that Sicily term that the Sicilians would use? They. It was. You would never talk.
- [43:31]
A
Is that omerta?
- [43:33]
C
Omerta, yeah. Yeah. Whatever happened to that man? It went out the door a long time ago.
- [43:37]
A
Yeah, well, I think when with the Mafia.
- [43:40]
C
Yeah.
- [43:42]
A
I mean I'm sure there still is Mafia, but it's not like what it was.
- [43:46]
C
It's the loyalty, you know, So I
- [43:48]
A
think that's where it went.
- [43:49]
C
Ye, that's where it went. You get caught, you don't talk.
- [43:53]
A
But nowadays, you know, there's. They always say there's no honor among thieves. Right, Right. So. And you and I talk about a lot of times the first person to talk, the first person to cut a deal, they're kind of the ones that get the, the sweetheart part of it and they're the ones that are going to roll and testify on everybody else, but they're going to do a lot less time.
- [44:17]
C
Right.
- [44:17]
A
So. And I think most criminals know that.
- [44:21]
C
Well, it's not like someone is gonna, somebody's gonna be waiting for you after you do more time to come out and reward you like, hey, great job, great job. Here is Mafia would though back then
- [44:34]
A
Mafia like in Goodfellows when Ray Liotta's character did his first stint, they were all patting him on the back and you know all that. You know, my wife and I just got back from Jamaica for my daughter's wedding. It was so relaxing, so comfortable. Part of that was my quint's wardrobe. You know, I just keep coming back to quints because they focus on well made essentials that just naturally become those everyday staples you actually live in all season long. You know, they have 100% European linen pants and shirts that are so breathable, they're easy to throw on, just starting at $34. And their tees are soft enough to live in all day. Everything at quints is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. And I can tell you right now, I live in their activewear flow knit line. All of it has become everyday essentials for me. And it's not just clothing. Quince has become a trusted favorite from everything from home to travel to everyday essentials. So make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.comtcat for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.comtkat for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comtcat Grainger knows when you're a procurement
- [46:00]
B
manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [46:28]
A
While investigators continued questioning Josh, detectives worked on tracking down Cody. He was located, arrested, and brought in for an interview. Cody lied twice about his whereabouts. When questioned, he admitted the truth during a third round of questioning. And that's always, you know, kind of a fascinating part, the interview process. You know, I think it's in people's nature. Well, especially criminals.
- [46:57]
C
Yeah.
- [46:58]
A
To deny, deny or lie.
- [47:02]
B
Right.
- [47:02]
A
About what they're being asked. But it seems like at a certain point, once the evidence is laid out multiple times, people start to wise up and figure out that, hey, I'm not getting out of this.
- [47:15]
C
You know, it's, you know, criminal or just kids. I remember when I was growing up, you know, my mom, I come home during the summer, my mom would say, how was summer school? It was good. So you went. Absolutely. And then later in the day, she said, you went to school. Right. I dropped you off. I saw you go in. So everything's good? Yes, mom, summer school's great. No problem. And then call me back in like a half an hour later, she's got the phone up to her ear going, now you're telling me you went to school. Right. Because I have the principal on the line saying you haven't been there. And I'm telling him, my son's telling me he's been there. And I'm like, I'm doing, waving her off like, I didn't go. I didn't go, you know? Oh, man. Yeah. It was not good for me. Yeah.
- [48:04]
A
You know, how do people think they're going to get away with certain things? But we've all been there.
- [48:10]
C
Yeah.
- [48:11]
A
We've all thought we could get away with something that we really shouldn't have thought we could get away with.
- [48:18]
C
I think we're more clever than the. And the people in the room with us.
- [48:21]
A
I'm also really picturing you, like, in a Breakfast Club scenario, being dropped off at the school. You know, here's your. Here's your lunch, son.
- [48:30]
C
Yeah, there you go.
- [48:32]
A
Except you don't go in where they did go in.
- [48:35]
C
Yeah.
- [48:36]
A
Cody seemed to realize that the walls were closing in. In exchange for leniency, he admitted that Josh coerced him into the home invasion. He implied that he did what Josh wanted because he was scared of him. Now, this is the problem that the police are going to have. Right. Because normally what happens is when people start admitting stuff, they have different stories.
- [49:01]
C
Yep.
- [49:01]
A
And. And each person is putting the blame on the other person. And then you got to figure out which one's correct, who's telling the truth,
- [49:10]
C
who really did it.
- [49:11]
A
But then Cody was asked about the murder of Anna Catherine Cardwell. He admitted to driving Josh to her home on the morning of the murder. He insisted that he had no idea what his friend planned to do. Meanwhile, investigators were still questioning Josh in a different room. He confessed after he was confronted with the evidence. He admitted that he was dropped off in a wooded area situated in a ditch and near Anna Catherine's home, where he waited for her mom to leave. Once she was alone, he rang the doorbell, and she let him in. They argued before the shooting. Josh said in one clip from his interview, Everything happened like a blur. I don't know how to explain it. I mean, it wasn't meant to happen like this. I didn't have it planned out like this. Y' all looking at me like I'm a monster. I don't know how to explain it.
- [50:08]
C
You took a gun there.
- [50:10]
A
Yeah. What did you. What was the plan?
- [50:14]
C
Right, Right.
- [50:15]
A
And people are looking at you like a monster because you shot and killed this innocent girl.
- [50:21]
C
Right.
- [50:22]
A
You are a monster.
- [50:23]
C
Exactly. You went there to confront her. You didn't go there to be like, hey, girl, how you doing? I. How do I get her back? What do I need to do to get. To get my girl back? You know? No, he went there to argue, and he took a gun.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah. It could have been right, that he went there to talk to Anna Catherine about, you know, getting Lacy back or something along those lines. My question to him would be, if that's what you went to do, why did you need a gun?
- [50:58]
C
Exactly.
- [50:58]
A
Because that kind of doesn't seem to correlate. Right. You don't need a gun to go talk to this young girl.
- [51:06]
C
What's she going to do to you? Right. She's. She's a sweetheart. She's. She's a very caring individual. So are you really concerned that you need to defend yourself?
- [51:16]
A
And he's a bodybuilder, and he's a. He's a big guy, so, yeah, he doesn't need a gun that would lead you to believe he went there with other intention?
- [51:24]
C
Yes.
- [51:25]
A
He was asked why he chased Anna Catherine through the house while shooting at her. He denied doing this and was asked to clarify, but all he said was, I don't remember. It was a blur. I've tried to remember. I've even dreamed about it. Now, could that happen? I guess. I don't know. Some people experience traumatic events and don't have a memory of it, I guess. But to me, it's more likely that he just doesn't want to tell the truth. He doesn't want to give the details because he knows it's going to incriminate him even further and probably just make him look more of a monster.
- [52:03]
C
Yeah.
- [52:04]
A
Josh admitted to taking Anna Catherine's car, which he abandoned at the Winn Dixie grocery store. He also admitted to stocking the home on February 10 in the same wooded area. He brought a mask, knife, gun, and gas can, but did not approach the house. Authorities believed he didn't approach that day because Anna Catherine was never left alone in the home.
- [52:29]
C
So right there, I'm not a monster, but this is what I did before.
- [52:35]
A
Yeah.
- [52:36]
C
You know what that reads? Monster.
- [52:38]
A
Well, and it also kind of takes out the I just went over there to talk to her right angle. And it also adds the element of premeditation.
- [52:49]
C
Right.
- [52:50]
A
Pretty hard to say that this all happened in the. In the spur of the moment. We got into an argument. No, you. You were casing her house. You obviously had thought about this. You planned it out.
- [53:03]
C
I mean, a knife and a gun, and what was the gas can going to be used for?
- [53:07]
A
To set the house on fire? To destroy all evidence, maybe. Then investigators determined that the prince extracted from Anna Catherine's car matched Josh. Investigators were still waiting to hear back from ballistics about the nine millimeter guns seized from Josh's house. Soon, one of those guns was confirmed to be the murder weapon.
- [53:30]
C
Bingo. That's what they needed.
- [53:31]
A
Yeah, I mean, he was charged with murder that day. How could he not be? Right? They pretty much have a very solid case against Josh. Cody was charged with first degree hindering prosecution. Ultimately, he wasn't charged in connection to the murder, and he received 10 years for the home invasion robbery.
- [53:54]
C
Got lucky.
- [53:55]
A
He got lucky. But, you know, 10 years, that's still a fairly good sentence. Now, a home invasion robbery is. That's a serious crime.
- [54:04]
C
It is. I mean, I still feel like it could have been worse for him.
- [54:08]
A
Yeah, I agree with you. A few days after the arrests, 18 year old Thomas Justin Bush and Troy Bush were charged with first degree burglary and first degree robbery. They were believed to be responsible for up to six burglaries and a home invasion, the latter of which Josh Kasperi was also involved in. The Bushes were reportedly friends with Josh and Cody.
- [54:33]
C
The little empire's crumbling down.
- [54:35]
A
Yeah, they're getting everybody involved, right? On July 20, 2012, Josh Kasperi was indicted on four counts, including capital murder, first degree theft of property, third degree escape, and promoting prison contraband.
- [54:52]
C
Okay. And he is just trying to get his hands into everything.
- [54:57]
A
He's racking up charges. You know, that's, that's the type of charge you get when you try to smuggle things in to the jail in your prison wallet.
- [55:08]
C
Right? And then third degree escape, I mean, he's, he's, he's got a set of cojones on them.
- [55:16]
A
Yeah. Well, it turned out that Josh's sister Jessica was also charged for allegedly paying another inmate $500 to smuggle hacksaw blades to her brother and inside the Elmore County Jail to facilitate his escape.
- [55:31]
C
I don't know how he smuggled that hacksaw, but I'm hoping it wasn't keistering it.
- [55:37]
A
Yeah, you talk about having a rough couple of weeks there after retrieving those bad boys.
- [55:45]
C
Yeah, I don't know how that works,
- [55:48]
A
but you're gonna need a new jumpsuit, I can tell you that. Because. But here's the other thing, right? And I know people have escaped using blades and things like that, but it's kind of such a movie trope, right? The hacksaw blades baked inside of a cake or whatever it is. I mean, can you really hacksaw your way out of a jail? Maybe.
- [56:11]
C
I don't know.
- [56:12]
A
I think people have done it.
- [56:13]
C
I mean, how long would it take to, you know. Quite a While got those bars every day until you finally get through that,
- [56:20]
A
you know, and I don't know, I've tried to use hacksaws before. They, they don't seem to be the, the best tool in the world, but.
- [56:29]
C
Well, not today.
- [56:30]
A
Yeah, but you know, you're not smuggling a dewalt inside your anus either.
- [56:36]
C
Yeah.
- [56:37]
A
A 20, 20 volt DeWalt with a saw on the end of a skill
- [56:42]
C
saw I just seen on the news to today was that there's a big ring was busted. A prison, federal prison ring where they were these, this group was using drones that can carry £40 each. They were dropping supplies and stuff at eight different federal prisons.
- [57:04]
A
Over the wall.
- [57:05]
C
Over the wall. And the, the latest one that got caught was somebody ordered like 40 pounds of crab and it dropped it in the prison and that's, that's what busted the whole, busted the whole thing open.
- [57:21]
A
I mean, speaking of goodfellows, that's like them cooking the, the Italian dinner inside the prison and getting all the good
- [57:29]
C
meat, slicing the garlic, the razor blade.
- [57:31]
A
Yeah, but why would you get crab? I get it. Crab's delicious. I love crab.
- [57:37]
C
But when you got to cook it somehow. Yeah. How you're going to smell it, how
- [57:41]
A
you, how you cooking it and how you getting away with it?
- [57:43]
B
Yeah.
- [57:44]
A
In August 2012, Josh pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity and reason of mental defect. Over a year later, on October 10, 2013, he pleaded guilty to capital murder. He was set to go to trial a few weeks later and was facing the death penalty. So he ended up being sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
- [58:09]
C
Yeah. Wise choice for him.
- [58:11]
A
Well, you know, some people don't care about the death penalty. Some people want the death penalty.
- [58:16]
C
Yeah.
- [58:16]
A
Because they don't want to spend the rest of their life in prison. But I think for many people that can be a real kind of carrot. Right. We'll drop the death penalty, just plead guilty.
- [58:30]
C
Yeah.
- [58:31]
A
And maybe that's what happened here. In an interview with WSFA 12, Paula Cardwell said about Josh's decision to change his plea. I think he was uncomfortable with the trial coming up and I imagine he was.
- [58:47]
C
Yeah.
- [58:48]
A
I mean the evidence was pretty strong against him.
- [58:53]
C
Right. I mean, if you take a picture of her and put it up on the screen and have all these people come in and talk about her character and who she was and how sweet she was.
- [59:04]
A
Yeah.
- [59:04]
C
And then you have this guy come in, he's a thief, he robs, he deals drugs and he, you know, showed up days before Casing the place and then did what he did. He's absolutely going to get the found. Be found guilty and get the death penalty.
- [59:21]
A
Yeah, I agree with you.
- [59:23]
C
So why wouldn't you want to avoid that? There's no better outcome for him than what he did.
- [59:28]
A
No, no, absolutely not. He wasn't going to get less than life in prison.
- [59:32]
C
No.
- [59:33]
A
No way. And I don't know what he thought he was or how he thought he was going to be able to swing this insanity defense. I mean, there was nothing in the research to suggest that he had any mental health issues or anything like that.
- [59:51]
C
He didn't try to toss up the roid rage, you know, but maybe that
- [59:57]
A
was going to be part of it. I don't know. She also said that she hadn't been able to forgive. She said, as a Christian, I know I need to forgive, but I'm working on that.
- [60:09]
C
I know we talked about this before that did the never forget, but forgive and all that stuff.
- [60:14]
A
Yeah.
- [60:14]
C
I just don't know if I could ever be that person.
- [60:17]
A
No, I. I don't think I'm. I'm strong enough to do that. Some people are.
- [60:21]
C
Yeah.
- [60:21]
A
And, you know, for many, it relates to their faith and, and all that. I just don't. I just don't know. I don't know that I would ever be able to forgive someone for killing, you know, my child or my loved one.
- [60:35]
C
I'd probably be. I haven't seen this series yet, but I've seen the teaser for it. I'd be like that Harlan Coban show that's out on Netflix right now. The. I forget the name of it, but he ends up.
- [60:46]
A
Shocker. That you forget the name of it.
- [60:48]
C
But he, he, you know, from the get go, they say, he says, I killed my son's killer. I. I was put in. Yeah. He ends up killing the son killer. I'm like, yeah, I. I would do the same thing. Right.
- [61:01]
A
Yeah. It's kind of like the, The Samuel L. Jackson character in the movie with McConaughey and Sandra Bullock, that great movie. I can't think of the name of her.
- [61:15]
C
Yeah, one.
- [61:17]
A
A Time to Kill or something like that. Yeah, something. It's something like that.
- [61:21]
C
I would have done the same thing. Yeah, absolutely.
- [61:23]
A
So as we wrap this one up, you know, when you think about it, if Anna Catherine was still alive, you know, and we talk about this a lot. Right. What would she have gone on to do? Well, most likely with her, she would have gone on to become a teacher. She could have chosen a different Career path. But she never got the chance because her life ended, you know, way too soon. And with everything we talked about, it's pretty easy to imagine that she would have been an amazing teacher.
- [61:54]
C
Amazing teacher, amazing parent.
- [61:56]
A
Yeah.
- [61:57]
C
You know, I think it was unlimited, what she could have become, but especially
- [62:01]
A
as a teacher, you think about working 25, 30 years, how many lives do you touch in a positive way? Yeah, it's pretty hard to calculate. Yeah, well, it's not actually that hard to calculate how many kids, how many kids are in the kid. But you don't touch everybody. Right. You don't reach everybody the same way, but you do reach some people and you inspire them.
- [62:26]
C
You figure 2, 300 kids in that time frame.
- [62:29]
A
So those people lost out. Right. It's not that another teacher couldn't, but maybe she would have done something that others couldn't have done.
- [62:38]
C
She seemed pretty special.
- [62:39]
A
She did. She did care deeply for her friends, to the point where she encouraged her friend Lacey to break up with Josh because she didn't feel as though Josh was treating her friend. Right. And that is ultimately what got her killed. Right. Josh was so enraged that he plotted this whole murder. He stalked her, and he wanted to get revenge on Anna Catherine.
- [63:13]
C
I wonder how long it took for him to realize that he was such a dumbass for what he did. I mean, think about it. He did what he did because he was upset that she had Lacey break up with them. We all go through breakups like we talked about. Who. Who you're with in high school is very unlikely. Who you'll be with later in life.
- [63:38]
A
Yeah. Doesn't always happen.
- [63:40]
C
Doesn't always happen.
- [63:41]
A
Sometimes it does happen sometimes, but I think, by and large, it's not a huge percentage.
- [63:46]
C
Yeah, but if. If Lacy doesn't want to be with you, regardless of who helped her make that decision, did he think by taking out Hannah that this was going to make it better? It just.
- [63:57]
A
Yeah. I mean, she might have talked to her about it, but it's not like she forced her to do it.
- [64:03]
C
Right.
- [64:04]
A
Casey had to have, or Lacy had to have a big part in it as well. It's just. She probably helped guide her. But here's my thing. You asked the question, and my answer is, I think, by and large, most dumbasses don't realize they're dumb asses, and that's why they remain dumbasses.
- [64:23]
C
Yeah.
- [64:24]
A
You know, if they knew or had the. The. The wherewithal to understand that they were dumb asses, they might change their ways, but they don't I think that's the
- [64:34]
C
most we said dumbass in.
- [64:36]
A
I think I just said it four in one sentence. Four times in one sentence. But, you know, obviously it's sad, right, Because Anna Catherine Cardwell, by everyone who talked about her, was just described as this incredible person. And anytime a younger person is taken, it's always just a little bit tougher. They haven't lived their lives. You don't know what they would have gone on to do and. And all of that. But it is such a senseless murder.
- [65:06]
C
Yeah. Yep.
- [65:08]
A
It's. You know, I. I don't know how many murders make sense for very few, but this one is extremely senseless in the fact that it. It did nothing in the grand scheme of things. It was never going to do anything. Just like you. You said so pointless. It wasn't magically going to make Lacy run back into this guy's arms.
- [65:30]
C
Right.
- [65:31]
A
It was. It was just purely about revenge and. But that's it for our episode on Anna Catherine Card. Well, and that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.
- [65:46]
C
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A
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C
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- [65:56]
A
No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.
- [66:02]
C
Okay, that's fair.
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A
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C
Not like the lottery at all, actually.
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A
Exactly.
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C
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A
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C
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