Cody Johnson

Summary

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True Crime All The Time – Episode Summary

Episode: Cody Johnson
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike "Gibby" Gibson
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Mike Ferguson and Gibby dive into the notorious case of Cody Johnson, a young Montana man whose death quickly evolved from a missing persons report to a highly publicized murder investigation. The focus is on the unraveling story of Johnson’s wife, Jordan Graham, just eight days into their marriage, and whether his death at Glacier National Park was a tragic accident, a crime of passion, or something darker. The hosts analyze the evidence, conflicting statements, and complex investigation that ultimately led to Jordan's conviction.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Backgrounds of Cody Johnson & Jordan Graham

• Cody Johnson: Born in 1988 in San Jose, California; moved to Kalispell, Montana in 2002. Known as charismatic, funny, and passionate about cars and the outdoors.
• Jordan Graham: Local Montanan, introverted, deeply religious, and active in church activities and childcare.
• Relationship: Started dating in 2011, engaged in 2012. Both were seeking a family, but Jordan was noticeably reserved, a contrast to Cody's outgoing nature.
  • Ferguson (08:24): "I've probably said it before, but my wife is very introverted... opposites attract."
• Wedding: Married on June 29, 2013. Appeared happy and in love in photos and video.

2. Disappearance and Discovery

• Timeline:
  • July 8, 2013: Cody reported missing by friend/boss after failing to show up for work.
  • Jordan told police Cody had left with a friend after she saw a suspicious car. Claimed texts were deleted as a couple's habit.
  • July 10: Jordan and her mother showed police an email from "Tony" claiming Cody was dead due to an accidental fall.
  • July 11: Jordan "found" Cody’s body at the base of a 300 ft cliff at Glacier National Park.
    • Gibson (16:57): "None of this smells right."
  • July 12: Body officially recovered.

3. The Investigation & Shifting Stories

• Multiple agencies involved due to federal land jurisdiction (National Park Service, FBI, etc.).
• Initial autopsy: Cody died from a fall.
• July 16: Jordan admits to pushing Cody, framing it as self-defense during a heated argument but asserting it was an accident.
  • Ferguson (20:19): "Next time you meet with investigators, you have this completely different story of self defense and pushing him to his death."
  • The suspicious "Tony" email traced back to Jordan using her father's IP, creating a fake Gmail account ('Carmintoni607').
    • Gibson (35:29): "Now we know who Tony is."
• Jordan led police to the body, wanting to "get the cops out of it"; expressed to friends that once the body was found, the matter would be over.

4. Legal Proceedings & Courtroom Drama

• September 9, 2013: Charged with second-degree murder after investigators highlighted her conflicting stories and digital evidence.
• Debate over self-defense claim and whether Jordan’s emotions justified her action or pointed to something more sinister.
• Memorable quote (22:56), Gibson: "Plus the fact that she says she could have walked away but chose not to and pushed them in the back, that doesn't scream out self defense."
• Defense claimed a mishandled investigation, a media-fueled witch hunt, and improperly recorded interrogations by the FBI; also alleged intimidating conduct by Agent Smadala.
• Jordan’s contradictory explanations, lack of emotion at Cody's funeral, and immediate return to daily life raised flags among friends and prosecutors alike.

5. Trial and Guilty Plea

• December 9, 2013: Trial began. Prosecutors presented a case of intent, supported by Jordan’s fabrications and actions post-death.
• December 12, 2013: Mid-trial, Jordan pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in exchange for dropping the first-degree charge and making false statements.
• March 27, 2014: Sentenced to 30 years in prison, plus 5 years supervised release. Subsequent attempt to withdraw her guilty plea was denied.
  • Ferguson (58:14): "[The judge] had continuing doubts about her honesty... There's only one person in this room that knows what happened. And I don't think she's been entirely truthful about what happened."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Unbelievability of the "Tony" Email:

  • Ferguson (15:11): "Number one. Hey, I. You don't know me, but I want to tell you what happened. And oh, by the way, make sure you call off that missing person report because Cody's. He's gone for sure."

• On the "Accident" Claim:

  • Gibson (22:56): "Plus the fact that she says she could have walked away but chose not to and pushed them in the back, that doesn't scream out self defense."

• Law Enforcement & Friend Suspicion:

  • Ferguson (28:28): "Cameron Frederickson, the friend who reported Cody missing, told the Daily Interlake he immediately suspected Jordan... To me, that is strange. You know, if one of your friends comes to you before you're about ready to get married and says, oh, man, I don't know about this. I think you ought to think this one over. Okay. I don't know how many people have had that happen to them."

• On Emotional Response:

  • Gibson (25:57): "Just really doesn't make her look good. Being on her phone, I don't know what she was thinking."
  • Ferguson (59:13): "To me, that's not admitting you did it on purpose at all... that's still kind of... kind of self defense, but also kind of, yeah, I pushed him, but I didn't mean to push him off the cliff."

• On Why the Case Captivated Media and Public:

  • Ferguson (60:12): "There are quite a few elements of this case that would make the media. Right. People pay attention to stuff like this because it's salacious. They were only married eight days... it's kind of a self defense argument to it, but yet she's caught in a number of different stories."

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Important Timestamps

• 02:17 – Episode content begins; brief banter, true crime community news, and Patreon shoutouts.
• 04:51 – Introduction of Cody Johnson and the case’s central facts.
• 06:54 – Background on Cody Johnson and Jordan Graham.
• 11:19 – Cody's disappearance and investigation start.
• 13:22 – Jordan’s first police interview and the suspicious deletion of texts.
• 15:05 – The supposed "Tony" email is discussed.
• 16:57 – Jordan leads authorities to the body; law enforcement doubts.
• 20:19 - 22:46 – Contradictory interviews and the transition from accident to suspect.
• 28:28 – Friends’ and family’s growing suspicions about Jordan.
• 35:07 – Digital trail exposes Jordan as the author of the fake "Tony" email.
• 43:30 – Defense claims FBI misconduct, focusing on procedure and recording practices.
• 49:47 – Prosecutors introduce evidence Jordan spoke of killing other relatives.
• 53:23 – Prosecution outlines their case in trial; the “lure” to Glacier National Park.
• 56:07 – Jordan’s plea deal and formal admission in court.
• 58:14 – Judge’s perspective on Jordan’s lack of remorse or full disclosure.
• 61:12 – Hosts’ final thoughts on the likelihood of conviction and what swayed the case.

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Flow & Tone

As always, the hosts balance detailed, meticulous research with personal anecdotes and conversational banter, punctuating the narrative with doses of dry humor and relatable side comments. They are sensitive to the tragic elements while dissecting the choices, contradictions, and critical legal hurdles that defined the case. There’s an undercurrent of incredulity regarding Jordan’s choices and continual changes in her narrative, reflecting both the hosts’ and broader public's reactions.

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Takeaways for New Listeners

This in-depth episode on Cody Johnson’s case delivers a classic example of True Crime All The Time’s signature approach: a thorough, empathetic examination of a chilling crime, the psychology behind it, and how inconsistent stories, digital clues, and public spectacle can shape the path from tragedy to justice. Even listeners unfamiliar with the case will come away with a clear grasp of the facts, the puzzling inconsistencies, and why this brief marriage’s fatal ending still echoes in the true crime community.

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Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

You know folks, when Gibby and I first started this podcast, we had no idea what we were doing. We had so many worries. Would anybody listen? Would we just make fools of ourselves? But now we know we were right to go ahead and try it because look, we're 10 years later. But it also helps to have a partner on your side like Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark to True Crime all the time to brands just getting started. You can get started with your own design studio. They have ready to use templates that help build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Shopify helps you get the word out. Like you have a whole marketing team behind you. You can easily create email and social media campaigns. And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com tcat go to shopify.com tcat that's shopify.com tcatt

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 498 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Charles (Voicemail Caller)]

Hey.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great man. Yeah, we just have so much stuff coming up do we'll be at CrimeCon in like two weeks. Do want to announce that we're having a meetup Saturday night, that's the 30th at 8pm in the Vista Cocktail lounge. And that's at Caesar's palace where Crimecon is. So Vista, Vista. Yeah. If you're going come out see us. We'll have a couple of Coca Colas.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Something. Yeah.

[Charles (Voicemail Caller)]

Have some fun.

[Mike Gibson]

We'll be the guys over there in the one corner.

[Mike Ferguson]

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Joanne bat.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Joanne?

[Mike Ferguson]

Kimberly.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Kimberly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Robin Moore jumped out at our highest level.

[Mike Gibson]

Man, that's awesome. Thanks, Robin.

[Mike Ferguson]

HB girl.

[Mike Gibson]

HB girl. Trying to think what the HB would be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Who knows? How would you even figure it out?

[Mike Gibson]

I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sweet pea.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, sweet pea?

[Mike Ferguson]

Nicole Crane.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Nicole.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Lisbet Van Leem put.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, the old lean put.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Cindy

[Mike Gibson]

M. Well, thanks, Cindy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Great new support. We really appreciate it. We have an episode out right now on True Crime all the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Deborah Lindsley. She was murdered on a train in 1988 in London, outside of London, I think. And it's fascinating case because there were, like, 70 people on this train.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's a good case.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it was, like, a really vicious attack, but only one passenger reported hearing anything suspicious. So, Gibbs, next Sunday night is our 500th episode.

[Mike Gibson]

Man, that's amazing.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is amazing. And we. We have a big one planned. Somebody's actually already guessed it.

[Mike Gibson]

Really?

[Mike Ferguson]

On Patreon. Yeah. I don't want to say who it is, because then that'll give it away.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But we do have 499, which is coming out Thursday, and that's on Samantha Josephson. She was kidnapped and murdered during a night out with friends when she got into a car that she mistakenly thought was an Uber.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Fascinating case. And it's a case that led to a bunch of rideshare safety changes and things like that. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am. I'm ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Cody Johnson. Jordan Graham and Cody Johnson were the picture of happiness on their wedding day. But soon after, Jordan was unhappy and already having some doubts. Just eight days after the wedding, Jordan pushed Cody off a cliff at Montana's Glacier National Park. Prosecutors argued that Jordan could have walked away from the argument, but she was overcome by anger and intentionally pushed him. Jordan claimed her new husband's death was a tragic accident.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, people do things they might not ever do when they're really upset. Enraged.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. We talk about a lot of people, right, who do things that maybe they wouldn't or haven't ever done before, you know, because they're in a certain state of mind. But I do want to say this is one of the reasons why I don't go hiking. Just one?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't want to be pushed off a cliff.

[Mike Gibson]

You mean go hiking with me or hiking with anybody? Yeah. Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cody Johnson was born on April 8, 1988, in San Jose, California, to parents David Clarence and Sherri Ann Johnson. Cody and his mother moved to Kalispell, Montana, in 2002. Cody settled in easily and made a lot of friends because he was said to have been very charismatic, and he had a really funny personality.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of like you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, maybe he loved Montana because of all the outdoor activities. And I just said, right. I'm not the biggest outdoors person, but if you are, Montana is probably a great state to be in.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, seems like a good place to go.

[Mike Ferguson]

As a teenager, Cody became interested in both fixing and racing cars. This remained his favorite hobby throughout adulthood. He still enjoyed hiking and spending time outdoors, but it was said that he was happiest either working on cars or going out for a fast drive.

[Mike Gibson]

Man, I love a fast drive.

[Mike Ferguson]

You get a fast car. So, again, I've never been one to really work on cars. I don't know a lot about engines, and nowadays I think some of the new cars are hard to work on anyway. They're so much computer stuff. But Cody worked for Nomad Global communication Systems, a manufacturer that designs and builds connected mobile operations centers and specialized vehicles for defense, government, and commercial sectors.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds pretty techy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So, I mean, he probably had some smarts. Cody decided he wanted to get married and start a family in Kalispell. In 2011, he met a woman named Jordan Grant. She was a few years younger than Cody and grew up in the area. Jordan was described as quiet, introverted, and shy. She enjoyed being outdoors and was active in her church. She loved children and participated in her Sunday school and daycare programs. And I think I've probably said it before, but my wife is very introverted. She can be very shy around new people, people she doesn't know. And I think when we first got together 30 years ago, because this month is my 30th anniversary of being married, so we've been together, like, 32 years. I think people, my friends, thought we were kind of an odd pair because I, at the time was even more extroverted.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And she was an introvert. But, you know, they say opposites attract.

[Mike Gibson]

You kind of bring her out of

[Mike Ferguson]

her shell, too, sometimes, and. And she, over the years, has kind of helped put me back in my shell because I was a little bit too out there.

[Mike Gibson]

She reeled you in.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, at times. After graduating high school in 2009, Jordan started working full time as a nanny. She dreamed of having her own family one day. Now, she wasn't actively looking for a husband, but. But she met Kody a few months after she turned 20. So we've kind of heard about both of them wanting a family.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kody made the first move when he started talking to Jordan. It was clear to others that she was interested in him. But because she was so shy, it took her a while to accept his romantic advances. Jordan also wanted to find a man who was serious about his faith. And she helped Cody get more involved in church. They officially started dating in November 2011. Cody often told others that he knew Jordan was the one.

[Mike Gibson]

The one. You knew your wife was the one, didn't you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I did. I did. Which is probably why we've been together as long as we have. He proposed in December 2012, and Jordan said yes. They started wedding planning and looking for a place to live. And I'm kind of in that spot right now. Not me personally, but with my daughter and my future son in law. They're getting married next month. They're looking for their, you know, first place.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. It's always a fun time.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It's also stressful. My daughter is very stressed.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Number one about the wedding, I think maybe even more stressed about finding a place to live. There's not a lot of houses right now available, and the ones that are get gobbled up extremely quickly around here.

[Mike Gibson]

I think that's the difference between when you and I were getting our first places. We didn't have that competition. At least I didn't have that type of competition. There seemed like there was plenty of homes to look at.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

You didn't have to worry about, you know, being beat out left and right.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Now rates, I think were a little higher.

[Mike Gibson]

They were.

[Mike Ferguson]

But maybe that's part of it. I don't know. Yeah. On June 22, 2013, they moved into their new home in Kalispell. A week later, on June 29, Cody and Jordan were married. Their photos and wedding video showed a couple who seemed perfectly happy and in love. And okay, I understand that. But who doesn't look extremely happy and in love at their wedding. If you don't, you got a serious problem.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. I mean, if you're looking sad and depressed or angry and mad, I mean, you know, you might want to go ahead and just tear that piece of paper up now because, like, it never happened.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's probably not going to go great from there. On July 8, 2013, Cody was reported missing by his friend and boss, Cameron Frederickson. Cody was normally at work by 6am it was highly out of character for him not to show up. Cameron was so worried about Cody that he broke into his house to search for signs that anything was wrong. Cameron found Cody's phone in the garage, which was a red flag because Cody never went anywhere without his phone. And let's face it, most people don't.

[Mike Gibson]

Especially with these phones today, having your whole life on them.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Now, this was 2013, but even back then, by that point, a lot of people were really attached to their phones. But the timing on this thing. Right, we said it up front, but, you know, they move in together into this new home on June 22nd. They get married one week later on June 29th, and then Cody's reported missing on July 8th.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a very short period of time.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. Cameron called friends and family and learned no one had seen Cody since the previous evening. He went to church and was seen at the Dairy Queen in town having dinner with friends. So Jordan was first interviewed by the police on July 9. Obviously, she has to be interviewed. Right? She's the wife. She confirmed that on the evening of July 7, she and Cody went to church and then to Dairy Queen. She mentioned that Cody received a call earlier in the day that made him upset. That evening, she received a text from Cody saying he was heading out with a friend from out of town. She said she saw a dark colored car pulling out of the driveway. She also told police that she and Cody regularly deleted their texts and that was why she couldn't produce the text for law enforcement.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, well, I know you want to see some text messages between him and I, but we've always just kind of deleted them because we didn't want them on our phone.

[Mike Ferguson]

A little suspicious, right? If you're a detective, a police officer. Okay. I'm sure there are people who regularly delete their text, but I. I think the percentage is probably pretty small. I know I don't. Because I want the ability to go back and look, if somebody says, hey, I. I texted you that, you know, a month ago. Yeah, I want to make sure they're telling me the truth.

[Mike Gibson]

You do that with me sometimes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're not. On July 10, Jordan and her mother met with the police to show them a suspicious email from a man named Tony. The email, which was released by the U.S. attorney's Office for the District of Montana. Read as follows. Hello, Jordan. My name is Tony. There is no bother in looking for Cody anymore. He's gone. I saw your post on Twitter and thought I would email you. He had come with some buddies and met up with me on Sunday night in Columbia Falls. He was saying he needed to be with buddies for a bit and take them for a joy ride before they had to go. So he said bye to me and they took off in a black car for a ride. Three of the other guys came back saying they had gone for a ride in the woods somewhere. And Cody got out of the car and went for a little hike. And they are positive he fell and he is dead. Jordan. I don't know who the guys were, but they took off. So call off the missing person report. Cody is for sure gone. Signed, Tony.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, just looking at that email, it's just so bizarre.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, very bizarre. Right. Number one. Hey, I. You don't know me, but I want to tell you what happened. And oh, by the way, make sure you call off that missing person report because Cody's. He's gone for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And how many car rides have you been with but buddies that the one buddy would say, hey, pull over. I want to get out here. I'm going to hike for a little bit, guys. Continue your, you know, driving this car fast and having all that type of fun. But I need to get out here right now and hike.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'll make my own way home.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. The following day, July 11, Jordan contacted a ranger at Glacier national park to report finding her husband's body at the bottom of a ravine in the loop trail area. Cody's body was found at the bottom of a 300 foot clip face down in a shallow creek. When the park ranger commented that it was unusual that Jordan was the one to make the discovery, she said it was a place he wanted to see before he died. He would come up here with friends to drive fast when his friends were visiting from out of state. Okay. I mean, this is strange as well.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cody's missing, but Jordan meets with the police. She gets this anonymous email, or not anonymous, but from a. An anonymous person named Tony. We don't know who he is. She doesn't know who he is. And then the next thing you know, she is the one to find his body. I mean, if you're a detective, any type of law enforcement, this. None of this smells right.

[Mike Gibson]

No, it's very suspicious.

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

Just like that?

[Mike Ferguson]

Just like that. But what do we always talk about, right? You meet with investigators, you don't have any idea what happened to Cody. Next thing you know, you're finding his body. And then the next time you meet with investigators, you have this completely different story of self defense and pushing him to his death.

[Mike Gibson]

And then you have this email. So how do you respond to that?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it's going to be tough, right, because now it makes it look like that email was a hoax, maybe perpetrated by you to throw authorities off the trail. Yeah. But Jordan wasn't immediately arrested after this interview. It wasn't until September 9th of that year that a criminal complaint was filed accusing Jordan of second degree murder. Jordan made her first appearance that day. According to the affidavit, Jordan provided false statements about Cody's death before admitting to pushing him in her July 16 interview. And it's kind of hard to argue with that because she obviously did. The affidavit summarized the argument on the trip. It said at one point in time, during their arguing, Graham turned and began to walk away. She stated Johnson grabbed her by the arm. After removing Johnson's hand from her arm, Graham stated she could have just walked away, but due to her anger, she pushed Johnson with both hands in the back and as a result, he fell face first off the cliff. The charging documents also revealed that Jordan told a friend she was having second thoughts about the marriage and she wanted to talk about her doubts with Kody the night he died. She texted her friend on July 7, oh, well, I'm about to talk to him. Her friend responded, I'll pray for you guys. Jordan responded by saying, but dead serious, if you don't hear from me at all again tonight, something happened. I really don't know, Gibbs, how it could look any worse for Jordan. Now I get it. She has her story of this being self defense, but you look at all these other things and it's kind of hard to think that that's really true.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, it kind of looks like a cover up. Plus the fact that she says she could have walked away but chose not to and pushed them in the back,

[Mike Ferguson]

that doesn't scream out self defense.

[Mike Gibson]

Does not.

[Mike Ferguson]

Another close friend of Jordan's told law enforcement that Jordan told her about an email she received saying Cody had left with three friends, went hiking, had fallen, was dead, and the search should be called off. Siblings Levi and Latani Blasdo, who were friends with the couple, spoke with the Kalispell Daily Interlake after the criminal complaint was filed. They said they had known Jordan since she was three and had known Kody for a handful of years. They stopped speaking to Jordan a year earlier. Latani said about Cody, he's the best person ever. He's the guy that every father wants for his daughter. That pretty much sums him up. Levi agreed, saying Cody was the type of guy that was genuinely sincere with everyone. He welcomed every new friend with open arms and without bias. He supported each and every one of his friends, and he was the person you knew would be there if you ever needed him. Levi said he was the one who introduced Jordan to Cody. According to Levi, he was completely smitten with her. But Levi told the paper that he noticed one unsettling aspect about Jordan up to and beyond the wedding. She seemed emotionally distant from Kody, he said. We all had our reservations about their relationship. She seems so remote from the relationship, so withdrawn. And they said they noticed this at Kody's funeral as well. Levi recalled, at the funeral, a number of us had spoken, and while I gave my memorial for Kody at the podium, she was messing around on her phone. It was very hard for all of us to be there crying and mourning the loss of our friend. And she was so unresponsive to that, really. No emotion, no crying, very sober.

[Mike Gibson]

It's so strange that she was so unemotional about their relationship, you know, because they were newlyweds. And to be so unemotional at the funeral, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, both of them are strange. You know, we've talked about it before, but, you know, the time leading up to your marriage, I mean, that's like, you know, you're still kind of new, fresh. Everything should be clicking. Yeah, right. And it doesn't sound like that's the case. If so, why'd you get married? And then obviously it is going to stand out to everyone if, you know, everybody is emotional at this funeral because, let's face it, Cody was a pretty young guy when he died. Right. Those funerals are even more emotional because the person hasn't lived their life, but yet the person they just married is playing on their phone. That is going to draw some attention for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

Just really doesn't make her look good. Being on her phone, I don't know what she was thinking.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I think if you're on the side of law enforcement, you're on the side of the prosecution. You're probably chalking that up to, she didn't care. She wasn't remorseful because she wasn't sad that he died. The day after the funeral, Jordan posted photos of the children she babysat as if nothing happened. And I think a lot of people are going to see that as strange as. Well, I get it. At a certain point, you got to work through your grief and get on with your life. For most people, it's not the very next day.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

You don't go back to posting on Instagram and Facebook and all of these places unless it's to talk about your loved one. But it's not about, hey, I just had this great dinner, or, you know, look at the kids that I babysit. It was said she behaved the opposite way at her wedding. She was emotional and cried before walking down the aisle. Latani described Jordan as 100% normal, but very quiet. She told the paper they didn t start to suspect Jordan until she gave different stories about what happened to Cody in the days he was missing. Levi questioned the story Jordan gave to investigators because of her differing statements. One of his primary questions involved the location and nature of Cody's death because Cody was extremely afraid of heights. Levi recalled traveling to New Orleans with Cody and standing at the top of a parking garage. He wanted Cody to take a picture with him by the ledge, but Cody refused. And I get that because I've said it before, but I am, you know, afraid of heights.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you are.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a fear of heights. And if you are a person who has that, there are certain things that you don't want to do. Stan next to a very big drop is one of those things, whether it's at the top of a large parking garage or at the top of a big gorge in a national forest or something like that. That would freak me out.

[Mike Gibson]

You're staying away from that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Cameron Frederickson, the friend who reported Cody missing, told the Daily Interlake he immediately suspected Jordan. After Cody was found dead, he said, I almost instantly thought Jordan knew something, did something, or was part of what happened to Cody. When Cody told me that he was going to propose to Jordan, I wasn't real supportive of it. I did have a conversation with him saying, I think he should reconsider. And to me, that is strange. You know, if one of your friends comes to you before you're about ready to get married and says, oh, man, I don't know about this. I think you ought to think this one over. Okay. I don't know how many people have had that happen to them.

[Mike Gibson]

It would be tough to hear, you know, I mean, especially if it's like your best. One of your best friends. You're like, you're supposed to be here to support and you're telling me maybe I'm doing the wrong thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's what I think. I think a lot of people around the couple were seeing things from Jordan that were red flags to them. My assumption is Cody wasn't seeing these because, you know, as it was described, he was so smitten with her.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And when you're so totally in love with someone, I don't think you see some of the. I don't know if it's negative, but some of the signs that other people might pick up on.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

On September 12, 2013, a U.S. magistrate judge ordered Jordan's release. She was put on house arrest and ordered to undergo mental health evaluation and complete the recommended treatment. Prosecutors filed a motion against her release based on the risk that she presented to the community, the seriousness of the charged offense, her repeated false statements, and her mental health. I think what they're saying is we believe she's a killer and we don't think she should be, you know, free to leave the jail.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, let's not let her just be out in public now.

[Mike Ferguson]

At a hearing on September 13, Jordan's defense attorney, Michael Donahoe, told the judge that Cody's death was an accident and Jordan was acting in self defense. Donahoe also said that prosecutors misrepresented events to incite national media attention and win public favor. He contended that Jordan's pushing of Cody was part of her action to free herself after being grabbed. This is all one motion, this grabbing, this pushing. That's what he said. Her attorney conceded Jordan did engage in some deception, but that didn't indicate malice or premeditation.

[Mike Gibson]

Still doesn't explain when she made the statement. She pushed him in the back, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, right. I mean, I get what her attorney is trying to do. It doesn't indicate malice, it doesn't indicate premeditation. But it does seem to be more than this self defense story that it all just kind of happened in one motion. A blur, like those things can happen. But when you say, I could have walked away, but I chose to push him in the back, you know, if that's what she told investigators. That does not scream self defense. If anything, it screams the exact opposite. Now, it may not be premeditation, but it's certainly not an accident or self defense.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On October 3, 2013, Jordan was officially indicted for first degree murder, second degree murder, and providing false statements, according to documents unsealed by the prosecution. In November 2013, Jordan told park rangers where Cody's body was so the search would be called off. The affidavits were provided by National Park Service Special Agent Justin Ivory, written in support of search warrants seeking evidence from Jordan's social media, iPhone and email. According to the documents, Jordan texted her friend, whom she told earlier she was going to talk to Kody about her doubts concerning their marriage. And late on July 7, saying she talked to Cody and all it did was cause me to get scratched and him to leave, one of her texts said, dude, I'm freaking out. I'm about to go for a walk or something. Jump off a frickin bridge. I don't know, I've lost it.

[Mike Gibson]

So it sounds like she got angry about how the supposed conversation went.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think one of the problems is you have to wonder if these texts are even real. Yeah. Or were they sent as maybe part of a smokescreen or something like that? Or is it showing that she was really angry?

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[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators also discovered that on the morning of July 10th, Jordan created an email account named Carmintoni607 from her father's IP address. Jordan had been living with her parents since Kody disappeared. A few minutes after the account was created, she emailed herself the suspicious message.

[Mike Gibson]

Now we know who Tony is, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I always wonder how people think they're going to get away with this stuff, how they can't see that it's just a digital footprint that is going to be found at some point. Later on July 10, Jordan drove to the hiking trail in Glacier national park and said that if the body was found, the investigation would be called off. According to one of three people who went with her. Jordan said, I don't care if they question me. I want the body found in the cops out of it.

[Mike Gibson]

That's interesting.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. I mean, the whole thing is fascinating, to be honest with you, because you go from, oh, my gosh, my husband's missing. I think he went off with some friends, to knowing where the body is, being able to tell park rangers where it is, and then obviously because of that, you have to craft a different story, putting yourself there, because how else would you know where the body is?

[Mike Gibson]

But she's also thinking they're going to call the investigation off. They're going to call the search off.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but the investigation is just going to get heated up. Right. Because nothing seems to make sense. She said she wanted to check a spot where Cody liked to hike, but the others talked her out of climbing down a retaining wall. The next day, July 11, Jordan and her mother and at least one other person returned to the area, and Jordan told them she saw Cody's body from the cliff's edge on the way home. Jordan said, now that we have the body, we can have the funeral and the cops will be out of it.

[Mike Gibson]

That's such a weird thing to say.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, because she just wants them to go away. Right. Don't investigate. You don't need to look for him anymore because he's found. Obviously it was an accident, so nothing to see here. Type of situation.

[Mike Gibson]

Moving along, moving along.

[Mike Ferguson]

In a defense brief filed that same month, Jordan's attorney said she was a victim of a witch hunt and a conspiracy involving attorneys, local police, and the FBI colluding to deprive her of due process and a fair trial.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I think they have that wrong.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not to say that conspiracies don't happen, but based on everything we've talked about, there was no conspiracy needed here on the part of the FBI, the police, or anybody like that, because, I mean, she had basically dug her own hole. Yeah, they didn't need to dig one for her. The defense argued that Jordan's July 16 interview with the FBI was mishandled. They said the government selectively preserved evidence by recording only those portions of the defendant's interrogation it felt would benefit its case, presented incomplete evidence to the grand jury, which rendered it false, and. And deliberately sought to acquire an early tactical advantage by deftly refusing to arrest the defendant at the conclusion of her interrogation by the FBI, only to turn around two months later to proclaim publicly that the defendant is a sociopath deserving of immediate incarceration. The brief noted that no part of Jordan's interrogation was video recorded. Additionally, according to the brief, although defendant had been at liberty for those two months, the government consciously elected to proceed to charge the case by way of unsealed complaint, knowing all the while that no grand jury would be convened for at least two more weeks. Prosecutors knowingly sought to influence the public with negative evidence that in the ordinary course, would have remained confidential. Before the grand jury, they said that as a result of the prosecution's indirect use of the media, Jordan would never receive a fair trial. And for me, Gibbs, you know, it's always tough to know how much of this is really true. How much of this is what you might call defense spin. Right. Because we know defense attorneys have to try to spin things in a certain way. Because, let's face it, I think her attorney is up against it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think there could be some truth in there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, when you talk about someone getting a fair trial, I mean, anytime there's a lot of media coverage, does it become harder to get a fair trial? I'm sure it does. People are sitting at home, they're listening to what the news has to say. Maybe there's, you know, pundits or talking heads giving their opinion. I'm sure that can sway people.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And I think a case like this is going to get more attention because it's not your typical murder or accidental death.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I think the fact that they'd been married, what, less than a few weeks or something like that, that's going to be part of it. They're newlyweds. I mean, who kills their spouse a week and a half to two weeks after they're married off of a mountain

[Mike Gibson]

cliff to, you know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, also. Yeah, that's a part of it. Right. The brief contained details about the July 16 interview that were previously unknown to the public. The interview was led by FBI Agent Stacy Smadala, who was called in due to his experience with administering polygraphs. Jordan was introduced to the agent by a detective she had previously spoken to. In a signed affidavit, Jordan said she, the detective and Agent Smadala sat in a room and she agreed to a polygraph. The detective left a few minutes later. What followed was an unrecorded interview with Agent Smdala that lasted over an hour. Jordan was distressed by Agent Smadala's body language. He put his chair close to hers so their knees were touching, and he put his hand on her knee and he kept it there the whole time. She tried moving back, but he just moved closer. Jordan admitted that she began her interview by telling the same lie, but she soon realized she needed to tell the truth. She described the events of July 7th and how Cody fell off a ledge. According to her, in what I truly believe was an accident, at one point, she physically reenacted how Cody grabbed her and how she pulled away and pushed him in a single motion. According to Jordan, per the signed affidavit. When I first read the complaint after I was arrested, I was shocked. I never told Agent Smadala that I started to walk away and then decided to turn around and push Cody off the ledge with two hands. Those were his words. That is not what happened. Jordan's defense argued that the explanation of events in Smadala's polygraph exam report, in which he stated Jordan pushed Cody in the back with both hands due to extreme anger, was fabricated evidence. Jordan recalled that after a while, Agent Smadala told her she passed and he thought she was telling the truth. The detective returned to the room and a recorder was turned on. Jordan did a 12 minute summary interview, briefly going over each part of her statement. And so this is a fascinating piece of the puzzle. Now, this is Jordan saying this happened.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, we're just hearing one side of the story.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. So that doesn't mean it's true. But this is what she said in an affidavit. If it is true, then I think you would have to question some of the actions by this FBI agent if she never actually said, I turned around and I pushed him in the back with two hands. Okay, that's a big deal.

[Mike Gibson]

It is a big deal, because to

[Mike Ferguson]

me, it's a very important part of the case. So if it didn't happen, big deal. Also, this idea of kind of having the interview not recorded and then turning on the recorder later, I mean, to me, that's. That's obviously not best practice. It's not a good way to do things. No.

[Mike Gibson]

And I don't know why he would put his hand on her knee.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's the other thing. I mean, she really made it sound like. I didn't take it as though it was, like, sexual. I took it more as, like, very intimidating. Like, he's right next to me, he's got his hand on my knee, Almost like he's trying to intimidate me to make me say something. But this is why I always say, Gibbs, that a jury has a really tough job when you've got to sit and weigh who's telling the truth. Is the FBI, is law enforcement telling the truth, or is Jordan telling the truth? And a lot of times it's tough to take someone like Jordan's side because they've already lied about a bunch of things. So are they now being truthful in this affidavit? In her interview, Jordan said she and Kody went to church, then to Dairy Queen. On the 7th, she discussed a surprise for Kody with his friends. She said she could tell he needed a break, so she planned a barbecue with his friends. She and Kody went home and got into an argument about their marriage, during which Kody held her down. She said he didn't hit her, but controlled her movements. He just kind of pulled me and told me that I wasn't leaving until we sat there and talked. And then he would hold me down and I could not get up. Jordan recalled that Cody once told her that if he ever hit her, she could leave him and never come back. After the argument, Cody came up with the idea to go for a drive to the park. They walked down Loop Trail and began arguing. According to Jordan, I was kind of getting some built up anger. Not very happy that he was talking at me like I was a child and when I was trying to tell him how I was truly feeling. At one point, Cody began bragging about not being afraid of the clip. And he said, I could do this with a blindfold on. I could just put it on, take a step. But I Wouldn't even fall. And I was like. And it just keeps going through my head that you're going to fall or something. Cody tried to grab her arm. I said, no, I'm not going to let this happen to me. I'm going to defend myself. So I kind of said, let go. And I pushed and he went over. Jordan said about the push, I took two and I just pushed, like, to get him off me, like, pushed. It was. It was two hands. All right, so let me go back to the fear of heights thing for a minute.

[Mike Gibson]

I was thinking the same thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

If this person was truly afraid of heights, as many people said he was, I just don't see someone I know I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't get anywhere near the cliff, and I certainly wouldn't be playing around next to it, you know, saying, oh, I could do this blindfolded or there's no way I'm gonna fall over. The whole time I'd be thinking, if I get close to this, I'm going to fall over.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And you would not do it.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wouldn't.

[Mike Gibson]

So I kind of side with you on that. That I doubt that's something he would do if he had that type of fear.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. It just doesn't seem very likely. She was asked if she could have avoided pushing Kody and just walked away. She responded, yes. Looking back, I guess I could have. When asked why she continued to turn around and push Kody, she said it was because of high emotions. I was frustrated, I was angry. I was every emotion that I could ever think of all at once. And I'd never felt like that before. I had never experienced that. Such high emotions. So again, if you're the jury, what are you making of all of these different things that Jordan has said?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, they seem to be all over the place.

[Mike Ferguson]

They do, they do. I mean, but even in the parts where she's trying to make it seem like an accident, even then she's saying, yeah, I could have walked away.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I didn't have to do it. I was just so angry that I did it.

[Mike Ferguson]

So if you're a juror, are you saying, yeah, that was self defense or no, maybe that was not self defense. I don't think it's clear cut that it was self defense. That's for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

In the brief, the defense called the investigators failure to record all of Jordan's statements a grand government strategy designed to avoid creating a complete electronic record of the interrogation due to these issues, the defense argued the indictment should be dismissed on constitutional grounds. But on November 15, 2013, the judge rejected the request to dismiss the indictment. Towards the end of the month, prosecutors filed more documents indicating Jordan spoke about killing her mother and stepfather in the weeks before the June wedding. Prosecutors planned to introduce this evidence at the trial. Her remarks would be used to negate innocent intent and demonstrate the likelihood that the defendant did act with the requisite intent in the charged case. That's what they said. Those are not my words. Because there's a lot of big words in there.

[Mike Gibson]

You could have said they were my words, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

But then everybody would just know I'm lying.

[Mike Gibson]

But yeah, I mean, if that's true, that she was thinking about killing her mother and stepfather, that's big. That's big news.

[Charles (Voicemail Caller)]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because what does it mean if it's true? If she's thinking about doing that? Is it much of a leap to think that she could possibly have killed her husband? Yeah.

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[Mike Ferguson]

prosecutors also intended to prove Jordan lied about alleged abuse she experienced in previous romantic relationships, which provided insights into her state of mind and credibility. Jordan's trial began on December 9, 2013. Prosecutors told the jury that Kody was head over heels for Jordan, but she was having serious doubts. That came to a head during their argument on the trail. The day after the wedding, Jordan told a friend she totally had a meltdown and was having second thoughts concerning her marriage and wondered, what the heck I just did all this for Now, I'm sure, Gibbs, there are people that after the marriage think, oh, did I mess up? Seems awful strange that the, the day right after.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, why go through with it? I mean, if you, you probably had those feelings going into It.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that was my thought. I mean, this wasn't like a hangover situation or Hangover 2, whichever one it was. Yeah, I think it was the first one where, you know, he got married after a drunken night in Vegas.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You're going to have maybe some regrets the next day after that.

[Mike Gibson]

But, I mean, this is something that they planned together. You know, according to people at the wedding, she was emotional and crying and happy, and now she thinks she made a mistake.

[Mike Ferguson]

Several witnesses testified that on July 7, 2013, Cody said Jordan had a surprise planned for him later that day. The prosecution argued that Jordan lured Cody to Glacier national park with the promise of the surprise. During their argument, she intentionally pushed Kody off the clip and drove away without seeking help. She lied to family, friends, and the police about what happened to Cody and fabricated the email from Tony claiming Cody was dead. The prosecution noted that multiple people reported cody missing on July 8, but Jordan wasn't one of them.

[Mike Gibson]

See, that doesn't look good.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, it doesn't. You know, if you just look at all of these things from kind of the perspective of the jury, you're just like, oh, that doesn't look good. Oh, that doesn't look good.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because, you know, things go to a person's credibility or against their credibility, Obviously the different stories go against it. When you don't report your new husband, very new husband, missing, but yet a whole bunch of his friends do. Okay, that is going to have to be put in the go against you column.

[Mike Gibson]

She's done a few things that goes against her.

[Mike Ferguson]

And of course, this email. Right. Because we've talked about a few times the revelation that it came from her father's IP address and she was staying there at the time, to me, that would be a big deal. Just kind of another piece of this. I'm making up this grand story. She communicated with numerous people in Kalispell about what happened to Cody, telling them he left with friends. But then she led authorities to his body. After providing several false statements and impeding the investigation with false information, Jordan ultimately admitted to pushing Kody from behind. Jordan's defense said she had finally worked up the nerve to talk to Kody about her doubts on July 7. But their argument ended in a tragic accident when he grabbed her and she pushed him to remove his hand. As quoted by the Daily Interlake. The defense said arguing on this small ledge was like arguing in a phone booth. Jordan lied because she was afraid no one would ever let her explain what happened on that ledge. The defense characterized Jordan as naive Immature and shy, she dealt better with the children she nannied than with adults. She was awkward around Cody's friends, and since they didn't like her, so she avoided them. She didn't want to report the accident because she was afraid. And in her naivete, she created an implausible story. And that's the one thing I do agree on. It was an implausible story.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, she really did fabricate it.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, I give it up to the defense team. They're. They're trying hard, right, to. To put a spin on her situation. I just think this is a really tough one to spin because there are so many things that are just not making her look good at all.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, she kind of set them up.

[Mike Ferguson]

Like she didn't give them a lot to work with. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I get you. On December 12, 2013, Jordan Graham pleaded guilty to second degree murder. On day four of her trial, the plea deal was announced after the prosecution and defense rested their cases and took a courtroom break. They had not yet begun closing arguments. When the trial resumed, the judge said there were new developments, and the prosecution announced the deal had been made. Prosecutors agreed to drop the first degree murder charge and the count of making a false statement. Jordan was asked to recount exactly what happened on July 7. She described the argument and how she pushed Kody when he grabbed her, saying, I wasn't thinking about where we were. I just pushed. On March 27, 2014, Jordan was sentenced to 30 years in prison, plus five years of supervised release. She was ordered to pay $16,910 in restitution. But then Jordan filed a motion to withdraw her guilty plea, but the judge denied her motion. I mean, she is just so all over the place, really.

[Mike Gibson]

Is. Seems almost uncontrollable.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I just wonder with this latest thing, you know, was there something along the lines of, okay, they're going to drop first degree, they're going to drop making a false statement, it's going to be second degree. But then she finds out she's going to have to do 30 years in prison. So she's like, oh, I just rather take my chances.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I just wonder if it was something along those lines.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it could have been, but I don't think she would have fared any better.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I don't either. But I understand, you know, from the prosecution standpoint, do you even want to take the chance? They had to believe their case was pretty strong, but you never know with the jury.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jordan took the stand and apologized to her family and Kody's family. As reported by the Daily Interlake. She said she still loved Kody. It was a moment of complete shock and panic. I have no other explanation. Judge Donald Malloy indicated he had continuing doubts about her honesty and he was waiting for her to say she was sorry for killing Kody. He added, there's only one person in this room that knows what happened. And, and I don't think she's been entirely truthful about what happened. And that's, to me, a very interesting statement and one that I was kind of thinking about based on what she said after her plea deal. To me, it didn't even seem that after that she fully came clean because she really didn't say that much different from what she had already been saying.

[Mike Gibson]

No, she kind of held the line there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. We had an argument. I wasn't thinking about where we were. I just pushed. That's what she said to me. That's not admitting you did it on purpose at all. That is still kind of. Kind of self defense, but also kind of, yeah, I pushed him, but I didn't mean to push him off the cliff.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And she didn't follow it up with and I'm sorry it happened.

[Mike Ferguson]

And she never said I'm sorry. Yeah. And I think the judge wasn't happy about that. According to NBC Montana, Jordan was moved to a federal prison in Alabama. Her release date is listed as June 2040. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, you know, I think the judge said it correctly. Jordan's the only person who truly knows what happened at the cliff's edge in Glacier National Park. Prosecutors argued that Jordan could have walked away, but she was overwhelmed by anger and pushed her husband of eight days to his death. Jordan's defense argued that it was a tragic accident that occurred when Jordan acted in self defense, pushing Cody away when he grabbed her. And there, there are quite a few elements of this case that you know, would make the media. Right. People pay attention to stuff like this because it's salacious. You have the. All right. They were only married eight days. There's kind of a self defense argument to it, but yet she's caught in a number of different stories. I'm kind of with you. I don't see how. And obviously we didn't talk about everything at trial, but I don't see how a jury with what we know of wouldn't have found her guilty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I can't see that either. I think to me it's a slam dunk of Guilt.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it does sometimes get tricky with that first degree. Right. Premeditation, intent, things like that. Sometimes a jury, they have problems with that because could they see an argument breaking out and in the heat of the moment, she decides to push him off the cliff. Even if it wasn't in self defense, would it truly be first degree murder? And that part I don't know. I think it probably goes to maybe again the prosecution's thinking of, well, we'll do a plea deal, she'll tell the whole story. But I'm not sure she actually did that part.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And like you said, the fact that she didn't apologize and the judge had to call her out for not apologizing or feeling bad about it or sorry. I mean, I think that tells you a lot.

[Mike Gibson]

It does.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because she already had the plea deal. She could have said anything she wanted. So what she chose to say and what she chose not to say, I think is very telling at that point.

[Mike Gibson]

Very.

[Mike Ferguson]

But that's it for our episode on Cody Johnson. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Charles (Voicemail Caller)]

Hi Mike. Hi Gibby. Hope you are both doing well. This is Charles from North Lanarkshire, Scotland here. Just a wee message to thank you for all the great episodes over the years. Amongst the long term listeners have recently signed up to Patreon. Had a chuckle at the last one. I listened to Kelsey Barreth where Fergie mentioned her friend Ashley Cockburn many times. It's just that here in the UK if the surname is spelled Cockburn, it's actually pronounced Cockburn. I think it would be the same in the States as well, but maybe it's a little bit different. But to me that sounds like something you need to put a cream on. And Gibby, don't let anybody say your Scottish accent isn't up to scratch because ain't you day an absolute great impression. They misses Doubtfire when you try it. Thanks for the great work guys. Stay safe and keep your own thing ticking. Goodbye, dear.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay, so that one actually made me laugh when I heard it when he said that sounds like something you should put some cream on. Okay, if it's pronounced Coburn then why is it spelled C O C K? Why is it not spelled C O B U R N?

[Mike Gibson]

Now you're asking for too much now. Come on now, you know, did you feel like you were home when he was speaking?

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh no, because I've never been to Scotland. I know what you're getting at. I am of Scottish heritage. But that accent, man, you know it. That's my favorite accent of all time. And I know they have different Scottish accents, just like we have different.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Accents here in America. But there is something about the Scottish accent that is just. It's one of my favorites. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

It really lit you up. I seen that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It just. It makes me happy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

To hear it. I really. I've got to get over there, but it's a long flight, and.

[Mike Gibson]

You understood everything he said, didn't you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I did not. There were some things I didn't. I tried really hard, but we. I. I don't know if you ever worked with him, but there was a guy that worked at the place that I used to work at. You still work at. I used to play golf with him. He was from Scotland.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he had a very thick brogue, or whatever you call it. Scottish. Scottish accent. And I used to just, like, go golfing with the guy so I could hear him talk.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. He had, like, a little man crush.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wouldn't call it that. I just enjoyed his accent.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay. That's why you ate lunch with him every Wednesday in one lunchroom that nobody ever went in. Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy. That is it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Sa.