Erica Green

Summary

True Crime All The Time Podcast – "Erica Green" (Episode 482, March 23, 2026)

Overview of the Episode

In this haunting episode, hosts Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson deeply examine the tragic case of Erica Green, formerly known as "Precious Doe." In April 2001, the decapitated body of a young girl was found in a wooded Kansas City, Missouri neighborhood. The child remained unidentified for four years until she was named Erica Green, nearly four years old at her death. The investigation ultimately led to her mother, Michelle Johnson, and stepfather, Harold Johnson, being charged with her murder. With their characteristic blend of frank storytelling and emotional candor, Mike and Gibby unflinchingly reconstruct the case, explore the failures in the system, and reflect on the horrific abuse Erica suffered at the hands of those meant to protect her.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Discovery and Investigation

• The Body is Found

  • [04:32] In April 2001, Erica’s decapitated body is discovered by police searching for a missing man near 59th Street and Kensington Avenue in Kansas City. Her head, wrapped in a trash bag, is found days later.
  • Memorable moment: “I mean, right there. I’m already feeling nauseated.” – Mike Gibson [05:14]

• Unidentified for Years

  • The victim was believed to be between 3-6 years old, roughly 3 feet tall, 40 pounds, African American.
  • She is publicly called “Precious Doe” as police and community activists seek to affirm her identity and value (rather than the impersonal “Jane Doe”).
    • “I actually like that, you know, because she is precious. She’s a child.” – Mike Gibson [06:14]
  • Despite appearances on America’s Most Wanted and intensive media coverage, no one comes forward for years. Early 2000s DNA testing insufficient to identify her—especially given her young age and lack of exposure outside the home.

• Desperate Search for Leads

  • Police sift through dead ends, including speculation that Precious Doe may have been Rilya Wilson, a missing child from Florida—this is disproven by DNA.

Break in the Case

• The Tip That Changed Everything
  • [10:15] In 2005, a tipster (Harold Johnson’s grandfather) calls in with specific information about the case, claiming to know both the victim’s and perpetrators’ identities.
  • "You have to vet [tips] out and hope that... it breaks the case open." – Mike Gibson [11:39]
  • The grandfather follows up repeatedly, gathering a hair sample from Michelle Johnson for authorities after initially being dismissed by police—eventually, his persistence cracks the case.

The Perpetrators and Confessions

• Identification & Arrest:

  • [13:38] Erica Green is identified officially in May 2005. Her mother Michelle and stepfather Harold are arrested in Oklahoma—on unrelated charges at first.

• Conflicting Accounts

  • Michelle confesses, stating she witnessed Harold fatally kick Erica in the head, and that they failed to get medical aid due to outstanding warrants.
    • “They were more concerned about their warrants than their child’s life.” – Mike Gibson [14:57]
  • Harold admits to using drugs and physically assaulting Erica, but softens his account, claiming the fatal injury was accidental. Both admit to decapitating Erica’s body to hinder identification.
    • “What kind of person could kick a... not even four-year-old in the head?” – Mike Ferguson [15:10]

The Aftermath and Systemic Failures

• Community Efforts & Police Dismissal

  • Alonzo Washington, a local activist, helps keep the case in the public eye and offers rewards, while the grandfather’s repeated attempts to alert authorities are initially ignored.
    • “He called the police about 50 times... But they just did not seem to believe him. And I just wonder why that is.” – Mike Ferguson [23:08]
  • Police eventually pursue the lead after new, detailed information is provided.

• Erica's Short, Tragic Life

  • Born while Michelle was in prison, Erica spent her early life with foster mother Betty Brown, where she was reportedly happy and well-cared for.
    • “She liked singing and playing with her doll... always smiling and happy.” – Mike Ferguson [29:34]
  • Michelle sporadically reclaimed Erica, but soon took her away from the loving foster home, ultimately leading her to Harold and her tragic fate.

• Patterns of Abuse and Neglect

  • Eyewitnesses, including Harold’s cousin Lawanda, recall hearing Erica’s screams and witnessing regular beatings before her death. Lawanda is criticized for not intervening, but the hosts explore the fear and complexity surrounding intervention.
  • Michelle misleads investigators and family, fabricating stories about Erica’s whereabouts for years after her death.

The Trials and Sentencing

• Legal Proceedings

  • Michelle Johnson pleads guilty and testifies against Harold in exchange for a 25-year sentence.
  • At trial, prosecutors argue Harold’s crime was premeditated—not because of planning the blow itself, but by allowing Erica to suffer and die over several days without seeking help.
    • “It was not murder. The jury heard that Erica died anywhere from 10 to 36 hours after she was injured. Pediatric neurosurgeon Gregory Hornick... said Erica could have survived if she had medical intervention.” – Mike Ferguson [41:16–41:47]
  • Harold is found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to life without parole plus 29 years. He theatrically protests in court, denying responsibility despite overwhelming confessions and evidence.
    • “I don’t want none of you to feel sympathy for me. You didn’t feel sympathy for me when my constitutional rights were violated... You only know what I was forced to say.” – Harold Johnson (in court), quoted by Mike Ferguson [46:27]

• Manipulation and Denial

  • Harold writes letters urging Michelle to change her story, including concocting a tale about a friend named “Mike Mike” taking Erica—continuing his pattern of evasion and manipulation even behind bars.

Reflections and Emotional Response

• Host Reactions

  • Both hosts frequently express rage, disgust, and heartbreak at the details, especially over the extended suffering and the role of both parents in Erica’s death.
    • "I mean, that’s the heartbreaking...a little four year old girl... wanted her mom... and her mom ignored her, you know, and just let her slowly die there." – Mike Gibson [55:16]
    • “What kid doesn’t want their mom to come make it all better?” – Mike Ferguson [55:35]

• Systemic Questions

  • The hosts debate not only individual culpability but systemic failures—why child protection did not prevent Michelle from reclaiming Erica, and why police ignored credible tips for so long.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the horror of the crime:
  “I mean, right there. I’m already feeling nauseated.” – Mike Gibson [05:14]
  “What kind of person could kick a... not even four-year-old in the head?” – Mike Ferguson [15:10]

• On being dismissed by police:
  “He called the police about 50 times... But they just did not seem to believe him. And I just wonder why that is.” – Mike Ferguson [23:08]

• On the echoing neglect:
  “What kid doesn’t want their mom to come make it all better?” – Mike Ferguson [55:35]

• On the legal aftermath:
  “I don’t want none of you to feel sympathy for me. You didn’t feel sympathy for me when my constitutional rights were violated... You only know what I was forced to say.” – Harold Johnson [46:27, via Mike Ferguson]

---

Timeline & Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:32] – Discovery of Erica’s remains
• [06:14] – Naming "Precious Doe"
• [10:15] – Tipster calls with breakthrough
• [13:38] – Identification of Erica Green and arrest of Michelle & Harold Johnson
• [23:08] – Police dismisses grandfather’s tips
• [39:39] – Prosecutors argue premeditation through failing to seek help
• [41:47] – Medical testimony: Erica could have survived
• [46:27] – Harold's courtroom outburst
• [53:03] – Manipulative jailhouse letters and “Mike Mike” cover story
• [55:16] – Reflection on Erica’s suffering and indifference of her caretakers

---

Final Thoughts

This episode stands as a sobering account of extreme parental neglect and abuse, made all the more disturbing by the years of anonymity Erica suffered as "Precious Doe." The hosts delve into Erica’s short, pain-filled life, the missteps of the justice and social welfare systems, and the aftermath in court. Their conversational tone, grim humor, and genuine anger amplify the emotional power of the case, making it both informative and heartbreaking for listeners.

---

For listeners seeking a thorough, emotionally honest walk-through of the Erica Green tragedy, this episode is essential. It explores not only the crime and investigation, but also hard questions about family, drugs, community responsibility, and the failures that let a child like Erica down.

Transcript

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[Mike Gibson]

N

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this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hello, everyone and welcome to episode 482 of the True Crime all the time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my part true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Having a good week and a little bit of a. A wedding scare with my oldest daughter did, but I think we got it all worked out with the folks in Jamaica.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, that's good. Yeah, they're like, I remind. Don't worry, we got it covered.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you know when you call the. The whole music is like all Bob Marley. Did they just cycle Bob Marley still drums and Bob Marley and the one keeps coming up. Don't worry.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

About a thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. You're like, no, we're worried.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

You need to make us happy again.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. But they're telling you, don't worry. Everything's gonna be all right. Okay, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Matilda Mwinma Gitonga.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, thanks, Matilda.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sandra Swisher jumped out at our highest level.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on? Siandra Young Lee.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hey, Young Olivia Dawes.

[Mike Gibson]

Appreciate that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Olivia Sabaton, Queen.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, hey, Sabaton.

[Mike Ferguson]

Andy Roundtree.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Andy?

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Kate means well.

[Mike Gibson]

Thank you, Kate.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Karen Jones.

[Mike Gibson]

Ms. Jones. Mrs. Jones.

[Mike Ferguson]

Me and Mrs. Jones.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we appreciate the new support and the. The continued support. Gibbs, we have an episode out right now on True Crime all the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Kimberly, Stephen and Dennis Young. They were found shot to death inside Dennis's home in Greenville, Ohio, which is very close to us. At the time, Kimberly was in the process of finalizing her divorce from her abusive husband, who police identified as the prime suspect.

[Mike Gibson]

And that makes sense in most cases.

[Mike Ferguson]

It does, it does. But, yeah, check that out. And then on our episode coming out this Thursday, we're talking about Pearl Bruns, who disappeared after an argument with her husband, and he didn't report her missing for several days, and he became the prime suspect.

[Mike Gibson]

And I really felt that was an interesting case. And how. How much involvement the crawl space had in this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And police. And whether they should have thought of it as a homicide early on based on the evidence they found. Right, that's. That was the compelling part to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Erica Green. In April 2001, a toddler's body was found in a wooded area in Kansas City, Missouri. The victim became known as Precious Dough. Four years later, she was identified as Erica Green. And the two people who ended up being charged with her murder were the two people who were supposed to love and care for her. On April 28, 2001, officers were searching for a missing elderly man near a Church at 59th street and Kensington Avenue in Kansas City when they found a child's decapitated remains in a wooded area.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, right there. I'm already feeling nauseated.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah. I mean, there's no doubt about it. A volunteer searcher found the child's head wrapped in a trash bag on May 1st. So, I mean, this would be grisly for it to happen to anyone, but when you think of such a young child, I mean, this is really a. An absolutely. A heinous crime. The child was described as between 3 and 6 years old, African American, about 3ft tall and 40 pounds. I mean, just listen to that description. About 3ft tall, weighing about 40 pounds. On May 2, police released a computer generated image of the victim, unable to identify the child. A community outreach group called Move up work with the police to call her Precious Doe because they didn't want her listed as Jane Doe.

[Mike Gibson]

I actually like that, you know, because she is precious. She's a child.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It does seem a little strange, right, to call a 3, 4, 5, 6 year old who's been killed but unidentified, a Jane Doe. It sounds strange.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The case was featured twice on America's Most Wanted, but no one came forward to claim the body. And despite DNA testing and computer generated sketches, by June 2001, the girl remained unidentified.

[Mike Gibson]

That's pretty amazing that it was on America's Most Wanted not only once, but twice. And more so than the fact that it didn't really generate anything. I hate to hear that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. My thought is though, with the victim being so young, how many people actually really knew her?

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

As opposed to, you think of a, a 19 year old, a 22 year old. They've gotten to know many more people in their time on this earth.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. More Expo, more exposure out there to people.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So, you know, we don't know. Right. It could have been that outside of her parents, she didn't really associate with many people.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You figure at that age probably has not started school yet. Most likely. So not many people may have known her.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't know exactly what the DNA testing means, but my thought is in the late 90s, they obviously couldn't do with it what they can today. And my other thought is being that young, her DNA is not going to be in a database. I wouldn't think.

[Mike Gibson]

I wouldn't think so either. I mean, I think you're working with very limited options with the DNA.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. Lead Detective Sergeant David Bernard said, as quoted by ABC without a name, I really have no place to begin. Without an id, we can't talk to parents, relatives and teachers who, who can give us a background on the trial and tell us who their friends and associates were.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, you really are in the dark.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think he's admitting that. And there are some of those cases where, you know, police, they want to get on it, they want to solve it, but they don't even know where to start. And that's got to be an extremely frustrating thing as a, as a detective.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure. You mean you need some starting point.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hundreds of people attended a funeral for precious dough in December 2001. On July 15, 2003, the child's body and skull were exhumed so a forensic anthropologist could complete a fourth reconstruction of her face. And I would think that would be a very important thing to have. And it must have been because they, they did at least four Right. At this point we're talking about the fourth one. Probably a couple of those might have been done for, let's say, America's Most Wanted. They gotta. They gotta have something to show the public.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah. In hopes that somebody recognizes the victim.

[Mike Ferguson]

At one point, investigators considered the possibility that Precious Dough was Rilya Wilson, a missing five year old from Florida. This was proven wrong by DNA testing. And that's the one thing that DNA testing definitely could do.

[Mike Gibson]

Some exclusion.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. I mean, if you have somebody's DNA and then you have the victim's DNA, you can compare them and if. To see whether they're a match or not. On May 4, 2005, the Kansas City Star reported that detectives were traveling to Oklahoma after receiving a critical tip. And I kind of go back to what the. The detective said.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

They need something to go on. They need a place to start. And where is that most likely to come in a scenario like this? Probably somebody calling in a tip.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Like you said, you were a little surprised that America's Most Wanted back then had a pretty big viewership and nobody called in anything. But now they've got a critical tip. And it was said that the tipster first called police back in 2004 and claimed he was related to Precious Doe. Police said they investigated the tip, but it led nowhere. The man called again on April 29th with more information. He knew the victim's identity, her mother's identity, and the killer's identity. He claimed the mother and killer were from Muskogee, Oklahoma, and drove to Kansas City in the spring of 2001 looking for work. And we talked about tips a lot. Right. Throughout the years, on different episodes, you got to have tips. Tips are vitally crucial. But the problem is a very large percentage of them are going to lead nowhere.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

But you still need them because you're looking for that one that's going to break the case wide open.

[Mike Gibson]

You have to vet them out and hope that, like you just said, it breaks the case open. I mean, I think about that case in Arizona, the Guthrie case.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

How many hundreds or thousands and thousands of tips they have received and. But they have to look at all of them. Yeah. They just discount it right away.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's kind of an outlier just because it's such a high profile case because of who her daughter is. But the same can be said maybe on a different scale for other cases Right there. The Guthrie case is going to get more just because it's in. In the headlines on pretty much every outlet.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

But let's go back to this tip. Someone calls in and says, not only do I know the victim's identity, I know her mother's identity and I know who the killer is. Yeah, okay. Please tell me, because you're going to wrap this whole thing up.

[Mike Gibson]

We're just going to make you an honorary detective right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kind of the same way they made you an honorary MENSA member.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I did have a 210 score on the last test I took, but I mean, yeah, it was out

[Mike Ferguson]

of a thousand, but yeah, it was a good job you walked into that one, man.

[Mike Gibson]

I did. I really did.

[Mike Ferguson]

The tipster spoke to the Kansas City Star and said Precious Doe was killed in a home and dumped outdoors. Police had to travel to Oklahoma to verify the tip, which was more promising than any other leak. And I get it, that sounds very promising. Now, it could turn out to be completely bogus, but.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, but in a case where you really haven't had a lot of strong leads, I mean, this one, you're going to. I think you're going to jump on it and really chase it down to see if it leads anywhere.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It is very specific, right? There is some specificity to it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On May 5, 2005, Precious Doe was identified as Erica Michelle Maria Green, who was almost four years old when she died that same day. Erica's mother, Michelle Johnson, and her stepfather, Harold Johnson, were each charged with second degree murder and endangering the welfare of a child. They were arrested on unrelated charges in Muskogee on May 2, and they were in jail when they were questioned by the Kansas City authorities. So never good, right, to be questioned about a murder investigation.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Also not good to already be in jail.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, it's not like they had to go look for them very hard. Right. They were in jail. Easy to find.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it's a little bit harder to argue that you're squeaky clean. Well, that's true when you're already in jail at the time you're being questioned. During questioning on May 4, Michelle admitted she was Erica's mother and confessed to being involved in her death. She said that she saw her husband Harold kick Erica in the head. In April 2001, Erica collapsed and became unresponsive. They didn't seek medical treatment because they had active warrants.

[Mike Gibson]

They were more concerned about their warrants than their child's life.

[Mike Ferguson]

More concerned about themselves. Yeah. Which is, let's face it, the whole thing is despicable.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure it is.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, what kind of person could Kick a almost not even four year old in the head. But here's my other thought, Gibbs. You know those warrants aren't going away, right? Outstanding warrants. They're still going to be there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're going to get picked up probably eventually. So you could go ahead and face the music and save your child's life, or you could let your child die over these warrants. And I get it. Maybe that's what Harold would want to do. He's the stepfather. And he is the one, allegedly, according to Michelle, who kicked her. Yeah, but Michelle's her mom. And for her to go along with it, or for her to make that decision, that is shocking to me, just

[Mike Gibson]

makes her a pos.

[Mike Ferguson]

I would back that up. After Erica died, they removed her body from the residence they were staying in. Harold carried the body in a pair of hedge clippers down a wooded trail. When he returned from the woods, he told Michelle that he cut Erica's head

[Mike Gibson]

off with hedge clippers. Wow. I mean, the fact that he even cut her head off, but to do it that way, I don't know, that's just really sick.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then Michelle, as the mom, is learning this.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And does what?

[Mike Gibson]

Nothing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Nothing about it. Harold also confessed on May 5. He admitted to using drugs on the day of the incident. He was angry that Eric had disobeyed him. He grabbed her and threw her to the ground while kicking her in the right shoulder, which caused her to fall and hit her head on the floor.

[Mike Gibson]

Big man, wasn't he? Big man.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, but this is also a little bit of a different story than what Michelle is telling.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She is saying that he kicked her directly in the head. And you just wonder, is he trying to soften his involvement up a little? He's admitting he was involved. Yeah, but he's not saying he kicked her directly in the head. He's saying that he kicked her in the shoulder which caused her to hit her head. I mean, is it really that much better? You're still kicking a four year. Four year old child.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. You're not going to come off looking any better.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Like you said, big man, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

To hurt a four year old child. He also admitted to decapitating Erica's body with hedge clippers while Michelle watched nearby.

[Mike Gibson]

Real winners here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, but conflicting stories again.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure. She was nowhere around when it happened. She was just told about it.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you just wonder, is that her doing the exact same thing that he was doing? Trying to soften her involvement? I didn't witness or know anything about it until he came back with the hedge clippers and told me, but Harold's saying no. She was standing right there. She was watching me do it.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, what does he have to lose to say that, though it's not doing anything to help his case?

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know. It seems to me, and I think this is very likely for most people, they're both, in different ways, trying to lighten their involvement or make themselves look better. And I think that's very natural for

[Mike Gibson]

perpetrators putting their own spin on it.

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[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, no.

[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Erica, Michelle and Harold were visiting Kansas City when the incident occurred. Authorities believe that after she was kicked in the head, Erica lay dying in the home for about two days.

[Mike Gibson]

It just gets worse.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's heartbreaking.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, there's just no way around it. But you have to tell the details to get a sense of who these people were and what length they were willing to go to.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, she's 4 years old. You're just letting her lay there and stuff, suffer that whole time when at

[Mike Ferguson]

any point between the incident and those two days, they could have taken her to the hospital, they could have tried to anonymously drop her off somewhere and get her help. And they. They didn't even do that.

[Mike Gibson]

I get he's not the real dad, but she's the mom. She is the birth mom. You don't Scoop your daughter up and take her to the hospital at no cost to you. I mean, whatever happens to you, happens to you. It's your daughter. You want her to be okay, but you put yourself in front of that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you just wonder how much of that is the drugs.

[Mike Gibson]

But you want to think it's got to be the drugs. It's not.

[Mike Ferguson]

That person can't be that bad, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

A mom can't be that bad. But after the arrest, it was reported that Harold's grandfather was the one who broke the case. He hadn't seen Erica for several years, and in April 2005, responded to a newspaper ad placed by Kansas City community activist Alonzo Washington. Washington spent years working to bring attention to the Precious Doe case because he didn't want people to forget that there was a child discarded like trash.

[Mike Gibson]

And, man, was she.

[Mike Ferguson]

She was in trash bag.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Washington's ad sought tips and offered a $33,000 reward. So, you know, I do want to take a minute and kind of highlight this guy, because, I mean, he really has no stake in this case. He's just a person. And there are a lot of people like this out there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That want to see justice for someone in this case, you know, especially a toddler this young. And they're not willing to let it go.

[Mike Gibson]

Thank goodness he didn't.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold's grandfather tricked Michelle into providing a hair sample, according to Alonzo Washington. And we mentioned it. Right. The man first contacted police in July 2004. He claimed that his grandson's wife, Michelle Johnson, told him she was Precious Doe's mother, and her husband killed the girl. So the problem was he made contact. He gave the police pertinent information, but investigators didn't believe him. And it was said that he called the police about 50 times over the following months, but they just did not seem to believe him. And I just wonder why that is. And regardless of whether you believed him on the surface or not, wouldn't you check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I don't understand that. I mean, 50 times. At what point do you go, you know, hey, Bob, let's go check this out? My. Maybe there's some legs there to this,

[Mike Ferguson]

because why is this guy calling? What's his reason for calling? Is he gonna get something out of it?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, if anything, wouldn't you go check it out just to say, hey, we think you're harassing or whatever the word would. You know, the charge would be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, you're misusing. Whatever.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or giving false information or whatever it could be.

[Mike Gibson]

But why Wouldn't you at least make the attempt to dig into it a little bit?

[Mike Ferguson]

And that. That does make me mad when police discount someone without doing any of the. The due diligence. Right. To. To kind of vet it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Especially when it turns out to be correct. I get it. When you have a ton of tips, all right, maybe some fall through the cracks and not everything can be checked on.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, hopefully they look back at this, you know, when it was done and, you know, lesson learned. Let's go back and see what lessons we could have learned from this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I'm sure in the postmortem of this case, that was something that was highlighted and was, you know, became a big deal. Alonzo Washington told KNBC he is very clever, but he's not the most articulate sounding person. And I think that might have made them dismiss him. They probably thought this is some Okie from Muskogee and he doesn't know what he's talking about. And I get that. I'm not saying it's right, but I get it. Sometimes people are discounted for the way they talk.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, there are probably people in the north that think some Southerners are not as smart as they are just because they might talk a little bit slower when that has nothing to do

[Mike Gibson]

with intelligence or they say Illinois or peasants and.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, or Spider man senses, as people will find out on Thursday's episode. But then on April 29, this man called back with a lot more detailed information. According to Kansas City police spokesman Darren Snap, the tipster called alonzo Washington on April 30 and later sent him a photo of Michelle Johnson and her children, including Erica. Taped to the back of the photo was a hair the man convinced Michelle to give him. So not only is he making a large number of calls, I mean, he's going out of his way to try to collect evidence for the police.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, clearly he really wants to get this solved for his granddaughter.

[Mike Ferguson]

And apparently some of the hair came from a brush and some Michelle gave to the man after he told her he would put it in a bible under the 23rd Psalm to bring her good luck. Washington obtained the photo and hair on May 3 and went to the police. Papers also reported on Erica's background after she was identified. Erica was born on May 15, 1997, while Michelle was in prison. Michelle had been sentenced to six months for larceny. Erica was born a month into her sentence. Michelle Johnson had eight children in total. They lived with relatives or were in state custody. Five of her children were fathered by Larry Greene, who was also Erica's father. Erica was immediately put into foster care. Her foster mother was Betty Brown, who picked her up a couple of hours after she was born and kept custody of her until Michelle was released five months later. So there's a, there's a few things there for me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

How hard would it be? And I get it, she did something she shouldn't have and she was sentenced to prison. But how hard would it be to give birth and then have to give that child up immediately because you don't even get the choice.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I would think for most moms it'd be really difficult.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now for her, we don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I know it has to be difficult for some of these foster parents. When you think about Betty Brown, you know, she's getting Erica when she's first born.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And she's keeping her for five months. You, you are going to be very attached to that baby.

[Mike Gibson]

Definitely going to bond. And I think, you know, hats off to foster parents because you, you have to know eventually those kids are going to move on.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. So I think they probably do. Most of them have to go in with that mindset. Right. This is temporary. Yeah. I'm going to get attached, but I know that probably at some point this person's leaving me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Betty initially became acquainted with Michelle through Betty Green, the mother of Erica's father, Larry Greene. Betty recalled about Michelle's release per the Tulsa World. When we went and picked her up from the correctional center, we dropped her off at her home and she left me with the baby. Erica said she'd see me and that's all she said. But she never did.

[Mike Gibson]

Just didn't seem like she had an interest. Well.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I just said, how hard would it be to give birth and then have to give your child up for five months? I think we're starting to get the idea because as soon as she gets out, she doesn't even want to be with the baby.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Is that because she's a bad mom or is that because she has other issues that are keeping her from wanting to be in the child's life?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Maybe drugs or, you know, whatever it is. But Michelle never expressed interest in raising Erica. With the exception of a few instances where she took Erica for a couple of days, always returning her. She lived with Betty Brown full time. Erica called Betty's 50 year old daughter mama. Betty recalled that Erica liked to sing, play with her favorite doll and was always smiling and happy. She liked eating Cereal while watching Teletubbies. She loved the color pink and was never picky about food.

[Mike Gibson]

I too, would watch Teletubbies while I ate cereal, as my kids would eat their cereal watching Teletubbies.

[Mike Ferguson]

But you are very picky about your food. I actually thought it was strange because I think a lot of small children, toddlers, they are picky.

[Mike Gibson]

They are, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

About food. Some kids will only eat hot dogs or, you know, whatever it is, Mac and cheese, and that's all they want.

[Mike Gibson]

My daughter was one of those picky kids. Very picky.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you're picky, too. There's a lot of things that you will not eat or do not like.

[Mike Gibson]

Why are you picking on me right now?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm just saying. In April 2001, Michelle picked Eric up and said she was taking her to a family reunion. In April 2001, that was the last time Betty saw Erica. Michelle. Erica and Harold Johnson instead went to stay with Harold's cousin, LaWanda Driscoll, in Kansas City. Harold met Michelle when she was doing sex work. According to lawanda Driscoll, who spoke to the Kansas City Star, Erica endured beatings by her stepfather in the days before her death. Lawanda recalled, we could hear her screaming in the back bedroom.

[Mike Gibson]

That's just shameful, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. Harold would beat Erica for crying, for peeing on herself if she wouldn't eat whatever that was. According to lawanda, lawanda told Michelle that Harold should ease up, but she didn't intervene because she didn't think it was her business.

[Mike Gibson]

Harold's just a sob.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think anybody listening is liking Harold Johnson. Now, I think it's fair to ask the question, you know, if you're lawanda, do you step in, or could that be bad for you?

[Mike Gibson]

I get it. It's a tough call. Right? But, yeah, I think I feel like we're here to protect the, you know, the kids. Like we have to protect, you know, children.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I. I get it. I get it. Now, obviously, she said, well, it's not my child. It's not my business. Some people might understand that. I think a lot of people won't.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I don't want to make her out to be a bad person.

[Mike Gibson]

No, no, no, I get it. I mean, I guess it maybe for some, it depends on the severity of what's happening to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or what she actually knew what was, you know.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Was happening.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

We also don't know the exact situation with her and Harold. Maybe she knew Harold's temper.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's True, too. I just know I would knock his lock off his head.

[Mike Ferguson]

I can tell you want to. Right now. You are fuming.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

There's smoke coming out of your ears. That' bad. You want a piece of this guy?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She once heard Harold tell Michelle, you better go take care of your daughter, or I'm going to do something bad. About a week later, lawanda heard a loud bang from the bedroom, which she now believes was the fatal blow to Erica's head. For the next two days, Michelle and Harold kept the bedroom door closed and told her Erica was sick. Lawanda recalled that Michelle helped hand out flyers about Precious Doe and cried at a candlelight vigil for the toddler.

[Mike Gibson]

That makes me sick the whole time.

[Mike Ferguson]

She knew exactly who Precious Doe was.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And she knew exactly where she was at.

[Mike Ferguson]

Police revealed after the arrest that after Erica's body was found, they knocked on doors in the area, including the house where the Johnsons were staying. Michelle answered the door and gave a bogus tip about a suspicious man wandering in the neighborhood. Michelle and Harold left Kansas City shortly after the body was found. Michelle told lawanda she was returning Erica to the woman who had been raising her. Lawanda spoke to Michelle several weeks later and mentioned that she thought Precious Dough looked like Erica. Michelle replied, oh, no. I have Erica here with me.

[Mike Gibson]

Just full lies.

[Mike Ferguson]

Betty Brown also started asking questions when Michelle returned to Muskegoe without Erica. Betty recalled, one time she told me Erica was with her sister. One time she told me she was with Johnson's mother. The next time she'd tell me she was going to bring the baby over to see me.

[Mike Gibson]

She is not a good mom. I'm sorry.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Now, I think it is so crystal clear that she just had very little regard for her daughter. I don't know how she was with her other kids, but she didn't seem to care that much about Erica. I think that much is clear. Michelle and Harold got married in Muskegoe a year after Erica's death. When asked about Erica, Michelle always had an excuse, and the family believed her son. I mean, just to put it into perspective, you're going to marry the man that you say killed your daughter and decapitated her? Oh, yeah. Now, as far as the family, I think it could be possible, right, to get excuse after excuse of, you know, why they haven't seen Erica or whatever it may be. Again, we don't know how much they saw these people on a regular basis anyway. Yeah. Erica's father, Larry Greene, who was in jail on a parole Violation told the Muskegoe Daily Phoenix that he was shocked when he learned his daughter had been killed. He was also shocked to learn that Michelle was involved. Michelle was Larry's teenage sweetheart. They were together for 15 years, but were broken up by April 2001. So, yeah, I get it. It's going to be shocking to learn that your daughter's been killed, but also very shocking to learn that the mother, this person that you were involved with for 15 years was involved in that murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, because why would you ever think a mom would do something like that to her own kid?

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I think for most people it's hard to fathom how a mother could do that. Let's face it, it's hard to fathom how anybody could do it, but especially a mother having anything to do with this happening to her own child. Larry didn't know Michelle took Erica from the home she was living in in April 2001. He always wondered where Erica was. When he asked, he was told she was with her maternal grandmother in Chicago or with other relatives. And again, I think Gibbs, Michelle was pretty good at lying to people and putting them off the trail of suspicion.

[Mike Gibson]

She was a compulsive liar.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, she had to be when it came to Erica because Erica was no longer alive. So everything she said about Erica had to be a lie. Larry recalled talking to Michelle and Harold face to face in Chicago in 2002. They told him Erica was in Oklahoma. Larry defended Michelle, saying she was easily influenced by the men in her life. She wouldn't have nothing to do with that. Whoever she's with, she would aid and accept that person. I still love her and I always will. She's my kid's mama.

[Mike Gibson]

Better man than I would be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I would have a hard time, I think, defending her after learning the truth of her involvement. In August 2005, a second funeral was held for Erica in Kansas City. A new grave marker was placed with her name and photo on it. Betty Brown attended the service. She told the Lawrence Journal World, it was hard when I didn't know where she was. I was always hoping one day I'd see her again. I wasn't thinking about seeing her in heaven.

[Mike Gibson]

I bet she wasn't because she probably didn't imagine what happened could happen.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and let's face it, who imagines that a four year old is, is going to be murdered or that this four year old is going to die before you do? On September 13, 2007, Michelle Johnson pleaded guilty to second degree murder, child endangerment, abandoning a Corpse and tampering with evidence. Prosecutors alleged that Harrell was high on PCP when he kicked Erica in the head because she wouldn't go to bed.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I'll fix that. Here, let me kick you in the head. Now you're going to bed.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, what parent hasn't had one of their children fight them right, about going to bed?

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

It can be frustrating, I'll admit to that. But at no point do any of us think about doing something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, you don't think about drop kicking your kid across the room?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, most of us also are not high on pcp.

[Mike Gibson]

That is true.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I just, I just wonder how much drugs played a factor. I'm not trying to give this guy an excuse because I think he's a piece of. But from what I've heard, that PCP is nasty stuff.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe if he's going to do pcp, he shouldn't be around kids. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Michelle admitted that she knew Erica was badly injured, but did nothing to help her after she was beaten and lay dying in the house. She acknowledged that she helped move Erica's body to a park and moved part of the body to throw off investigators. She also agreed to testify against Harrell at his upcoming trial. In exchange, prosecutors would recommend a 25 year sentence. Yeah, you better cut a deal because if you have a jury trial, there's nobody on that jury who's going to have an ounce of sympathy for you when it comes to the murder of a four year old child.

[Mike Gibson]

You are not a good person. You should not have anything to do with any of your kids.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and it sounds like she didn't have a lot to do. Most of them, it sounds, had been taken by the state or, you know, were living with relatives or someone else. Harold Johnson's trial started on October 6, 2008. The defense acknowledged that Harold kicked Erica after she refused to go to bed. But they argued the act was not premeditated as required for a first degree murder conviction. Prosecutors laid out a case for premeditated murder, arguing that Harold's decision not to seek medical attention for Erica was evidence of deliberation.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I mean, that's a good point. They had an opportunity to get her medical attention, not for hours, but for days and chose not to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but it's interesting, right, because normally you think about premeditation as what comes before the murder.

[Listener Voicemail]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or before the act that causes the murder. Here they're making the argument that, yeah, he might have kicked her out of frustration or whatever it was, but it should Be first degree. Because they had days and days and days to get medical attention, and they chose not to. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

And just allowed her to sit there and suffer that whole time.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that part. There's no arguing that that part was. Wasn't premeditated. It was. They had a chance to. They chose not to. They made that decision.

[Mike Gibson]

They did.

[Mike Ferguson]

Defense attorney Kenton hall argued that Harold did not intend to kill Erica. She died from an accidental, reckless death from a single out of control, reckless blow. It was not murder. The jury heard that Erica died anywhere from 10 to 36 hours after she was injured. Pediatric neurosurgeon Gregory Hornick said in a video deposition that Erica could have survived if she had medical intervention.

[Mike Gibson]

They just needed to take her to the hospital.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. They chose not to. Right now, when we go through these cases, especially when we talk about the trial, I do like to think about, you know, from a juror's perspective, if I was on the jury, what testimony would be very impactful to me. Okay, here you have a pediatric neurosurgeon. Probably pretty hard to question this guy's credentials, flatly saying she could have survived if she would have had medical attention.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Michelle testified that she watched Harold kick Erica in the head when she refused to lie down and go to bed. Erica collapsed, and they both knew she was seriously injured. Harrell was hot when he kicked Erica. According to Michelle, as quoted by NBC. He just picked up his feet and kicked her on the side of the face. I said, what the bleep did you do? It shook him out of his hot. They decided against calling an ambulance because they were on the run from police, but they both knew Erica would die if they did not get help, which

[Mike Gibson]

to me is murder.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I can really see that argument of this premeditation coming after the blow. The premeditation of weighing the decision of whether to get her medical attention and deciding no.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Michelle tried to revive Erica by putting her in a tub of cold water. When she didn't respond, she took her out and put her on the bedroom floor. Michelle testified that Erica lingered for two or three days. They tried to give her water and food and spoke to her, hoping she would wake up. Towards the end, she heard Harold talking to her as she lay on the floor. He was saying he never was going to leave me or hurt me. And then I heard my baby take her last breath. And I'm sure this was heart wrenching testimony, but I'm not sure in what way. Right. It hits the jury. It's heart wrenching from the standpoint. Of knowing what Erica went through, but I don't think in any way it leans towards sympathy for either of these people.

[Listener Voicemail]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold elected not to testify, but jurors saw his video confession from May 2005. He admitted that Erica's head struck the floor after he forced her down, saying, I grabbed her with my hands by her shoulder and I kind of twisted her down. Now that is a far cry from kicking or stomping someone in the face. Yeah, I kind of twisted her down by her shoulder.

[Mike Gibson]

He's trying to make it sound not as severe.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

As it really was.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, he's really trying to downplay it there. He also admitted to decapitating Erica's body with hedge clippers. He said, I grabbed the hedge clippers and I just closed them around her neck just once. As though that makes it better. I only did it once.

[Mike Gibson]

He's trying to lessen. Lessen it. It's not.

[Mike Ferguson]

But he's not even doing that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

He acknowledged dumping her body in a wooded area, saying, I wasn't in my right mind. I didn't mean for this to happen. Now, that part, it might be true if you take it from the context of right mind, meaning he's spaced out or whacked out on drugs, pcp.

[Mike Gibson]

You know what, though? He made that decision to take those drugs.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm with you. But is there a legal argument to be made? And sometimes there is.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm with you, though I think when your actions end in the death of a four year old little girl, you got to pay for that.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely. You do.

[Mike Ferguson]

On October 8, 2008, Harold Johnson was found guilty of first degree murder and endangering the welfare of a child and abuse of a child, resulting in debt. And on November 20th, Harold was sentenced to life without parole, plus 29 years in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

Good. I'm.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm happy with that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Should never see daylight.

[Mike Ferguson]

Life without parole plus 29 years. Just in case something goes wrong with the life without parole.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because I'm with you. This is a man who, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to walk the streets with the rest of us.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Based on what he did, Harold said in court is quoted by the Kansas City Star. I don't want none of you to feel sympathy for me. You didn't feel sympathy for me when my constitutional rights were violated, when they made me make that statement. He added, you don't know me. You only know what I was forced to say. Okay. All right, Harold.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not sure Harold was men. Some material, but first of All. I don't want none of you to feel sympathy for me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, well, don't worry.

[Mike Ferguson]

That wasn't happening. Yeah, and here's the thing that I didn't understand. So is he saying that they forced him to make that video confession? He said some of the same things in court.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

So did they force him to say those things as well? That. That's where it just doesn't make any sense. Right.

[Mike Gibson]

End of the day, he killed a four year old and took her head off.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Plain and simple, you know, Bye, bye, go away.

[Mike Ferguson]

He also alleged that he was made a scapegoat, saying, I was convicted from the start by the community and the judicial system. I didn't get a fair trial. He said he loved Erica like his own daughter. He said, I made some mistakes, but never once did I harm a hair on her head or do anything to hurt her.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, people said that they could hear

[Mike Ferguson]

you beating the you know what out of her. Didn't he also admit on the stand to closing the clippers around her neck?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I feel like he's delusional.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Well, you know what some of these people say after the fact? It doesn't seem to match what they either said in confessions or even in court. They're just railing against the system and. Right. Everybody has it out for me. Yeah, nobody had it out for you. You chose to get high on PCP and you killed a four year old girl.

[Mike Gibson]

You certainly didn't love her like your own daughter. Well, maybe you did love her like how you would love your own daughter. I don't know what weird world you live in, but you certainly didn't love this girl the way she should have been loved.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, absolutely not. On December 8, 2008, the Kansas City Star reported that Harrell wrote letters to Michelle urging her to change her story and reject a plea deal. The Star obtained the letters through a public records request. The Letters began in 2002, when Harrell was in prison for stolen property, weapons and drug offenses. In the earliest letters, Harold expressed his concern for his children's welfare and urged Michelle to stop smoking crack cocaine.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's a good thing to encourage somebody to do, stop smoking crack cocaine. It's never good for anybody.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think it is. He also wrote about his feelings for Michelle, writing, boo. Let's be faithful to each other. Let's do the real things husband and wives are supposed to do with each other. Michelle, I love you. You have the man of your dreams, right? Maybe a little full of himself there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not a woman. But if I was a woman, you know what would not be on my list of man of my dream material? The ability to kick a four year old in the head.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And treat her like that. In a 10 page letter dated August 3, 2007, Harold was aware Michelle was considering a plea agreement and he urged her to go to trial instead, saying the prosecution didn't have evidence and that was why they were offering her a plea. He also proposed they change their stories. So again, he's not even looking out for her at this point. He's looking out for himself, trying to get her not to plea and testify against him.

[Mike Gibson]

But yet this is the guy said, I'm not getting a fair shake at this. Everybody's out to get me.

[Mike Ferguson]

He wrote Michelle, we got to do what we got to do together as one, we can beat this case. That's real talk. You just got to do everything I asked you to do and listen to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Of course it's what he's going to say because he knows he's going to go to prison for the rest of his life.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, especially if she's on the stand testifying against.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

He wanted Michelle to tell authorities they ran into a friend called Mike Mike while buying cigarettes. Mike Mike was going to drive home to Oklahoma. Harold asked if he would take Erica to a family friend in Muskogee and Mike Mike agreed. Harold paid him $35 and he put Erica in a car. They never saw her again.

[Mike Gibson]

What a stand up guy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold or the imaginary Mike Mike. Yeah, I mean, Mike Mike was probably real. But yeah, this didn't happen right the way that he said it did. I, I just, I'm always amazed. Did he think he could put all of this in writing and it was never going to come back to bite him in the ass?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Like we said, he obviously wasn't the brightest bulb in the room.

[Mike Ferguson]

Is that how that saying goes?

[Mike Gibson]

I think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

Let's go with it. If not, that's how it should go.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

From now on, I just want to know whose name is Mike Mike. I mean, you know, the name Mike is so awesome. I guess he thought having it twice would be double. Even more awesome. Double awesome Mike Mike.

[Mike Gibson]

Almost feel. It's like that. What was that movie, Italian guy Goodfellows, when that one guy comes in the bar and he repeats everything twice.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm gonna get the papers. Get the papers.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. He's like, hey, Mike Mike.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold finished his plan by writing about two weeks later. We had heard bits and pieces About a baby killed in Kansas City. It was all on the news. We had no reason to think we were connected to the case. This is our defense. All right, Perry Mason, you are not.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. This.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're not even Matlock at this point.

[Mike Gibson]

No, not even close.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're not even my cousin Vinnie.

[Mike Gibson]

There you go. Now you're on. Now you're on it. You're not even a guy that was representing the other guy in Cousin Vinnie. His cousin that left to come over to Cousin Vinny.

[Mike Ferguson]

The one that had the real bad stutter.

[Listener Voicemail]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

After Michelle agreed to testify against her husband, the tone of his letters changed. Shocking that that would be the case.

[Listener Voicemail]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold wrote on September 11, 2007. So this is from my heart. I'm letting you go. It's over between us. I love you. Always. But you are showing me you don't care about my feelings or anything else. You're going to do what you want to do, regardless of how I feel or what I say. I mean, to me, Gibbs, that sounds so manipulative.

[Mike Gibson]

It does.

[Mike Ferguson]

He is really trying to manipulate her into rethinking this decision. In a letter dated September 8, 2008, Harold threatened Michelle writing. And now I'm going to make sure you get ran over personally. Tell him how you used to beat and leave Erica in that room with no tv, no nothing for hours while you smoked crack. They're going to know you did make it last. Because your time on this earth is real short. You can believe that. It's on site.

[Mike Gibson]

It's all baby, baby, baby, until baby doesn't want to play your baby baby game. And then you're going to come around and be like, I'm going to take you down. I'm going to tell them everything about you. I can't stand you. And let me tell you what else.

[Mike Ferguson]

But that last one's very threatening, right?

[Mike Gibson]

For sure, it is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold's attorney, Kenton hall, said he learned about most of the letters about a year before the trial started. The Mike Mike story was one of several distractions as they tried to keep him focused on the case. Mike, Mike, Mike. Don't forget about Mike Mike. So, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, the murderer of Erica Green, previously known as Precious Doe, is one of Kansas City's most tragic cases. Michelle Johnson took Erica from a safe and loving environment with her foster mother and and endangered her by bringing her into a home with her husband, Harold Johnson, who beat Erica repeatedly in her final days. Although Michelle didn't deliver the fatal blow, she played a Very significant role in Erica's death by failing to get her help as she lay dying on the floor for hours, possibly days.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, that's the heartbreaking. It's all heartbreaking, right? It is, but the fact that this little four year old girl laid there suffering in pain and agony and wanting, I mean, her mom. I'm just imagining that she wanted her mom, you know, to come take care of me.

[Mike Ferguson]

What kid doesn't want their mom to come make it all better?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And her mom ignored her, you know, and just let her slowly die there without any concern.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I keep touching on the drugs and again, I'm not making excuses for what these people did, but I just wonder, you know, it seems to me it could have been. They could have played a very big role.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

In them doing what they did. Now, I don't think they were good people, regardless of the drugs, because it sounds like there was a long history on the part of Michelle of not taking care of her kids.

[Mike Gibson]

So maybe she shouldn't even had Erica at the home with her. Maybe Erica should have been with a foster parent or dad or somebody else, but not there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I think she was way better off living with Betty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So is that the, Is that Michelle's fault because she didn't turn her over, or is it the state's or the county or somebody's fault for not, you know, looking into that more frequently and doing something.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I did kind of have that question. Right. Here's a woman who got however many of her kids taken away from her. So at what point did they look into her before she was allowed to have Erica back from foster care? I. I don't know. I don't know. There wasn't really much in the research about that. Like you said, it is a heartbreaking case. Here's a little girl who people said was always smiling, happy, upbeat, and she just never got a chance to live her life. And I think the fact that it comes in large part at the hands of her own mother is going to be really hard. It is for most people to comprehend.

[Mike Gibson]

I keep going back to the fact that how do you look down that hallway and see your child on the floor and turn the cheek and then

[Mike Ferguson]

how do you marry this man like a year later.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

A man who killed your daughter. Now you were involved. So maybe the marriage was out of self preservation. Hey, let's get married. Neither of us will turn on the other. Maybe. I just don't know. But it's a very infuriating story.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you kind of want to get your hands on both of them.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah, I would.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harold especially.

[Mike Gibson]

I'd go in a cell with him right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think you and I should be putting our hands on a woman. But, you know, Harold's fair.

[Mike Gibson]

Fair game, absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, there are probably women out there saying they'd like to get their hands on Michelle maybe, and I wouldn't blame them one bit because I'm really upset at both of these individuals.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I understand addiction's a problem, but you can't tell me that, you know, and I know I'm repeating myself, that you can justify that over the fact that the daughter was in the hallway or in the bedroom on the floor, and you just ignore that, you

[Mike Ferguson]

know, and wouldn't lay down when you told her to lay down.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

A four year old not doing what you say. Shocking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

But that's it for our episode on Erica Green. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Listener Voicemail]

That's all I can give you. This is Demic from Utah. I'm. I'm a bit far behind. I. Long story short, I listened to you in high school. I'm actually a member of the church Jesus Christ Latter Day Saint. I ended up serving a two year mission from 2021 to 2023 and kind of, kind of lost track, you guys, and then just rediscovered you. And I'm starting all the way back in where I left off in 2020, kind of around Covid. So it's funny hearing you guys, your voices change and all that fun stuff. I. I just remembered leaving voice memo because I just listened to the art Bishop Case talked about. Nah, he's a. He's a member of the LDS Fate and how you served a mission and I was like, I should give them a call and let them know that. The only reason I stopped listening to you guys because I. My mission. I came home and kind of lost track and I started driving a lot for college and working. So I heard I should. I should start listening. You guys make my dress a lot shorter. But anyways, I'm a long time listener. Obviously I'm about six years behind, so catching up day by day. But love you guys and have a good one.

[Mike Gibson]

All right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Love you too, man. Appreciate the voicemail. Yeah, you know, there's stuff that crops up in life that takes precedent over podcasts or whatever, and that seems like a very important one, but. Glad you're back listening.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Welcome back. Time to get caught up.

[Mike Ferguson]

So what Gibby is saying is binge, binge, binge. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.