Glenna Duram

Summary

True Crime All The Time — Episode 489: Glenna Duram
Aired April 16, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the disturbing and highly unusual murder case of Glenna Duram, who killed her husband, Marty Duram, in Sand Lake, Michigan, in 2015. What makes this case extraordinary is the role Glenna’s talking parrot, Bud, played in piecing together what happened. The hosts delve into the couple's background, the financial and social pressures leading up to the murder, the investigation’s twists—including the infamous parrot’s testimony—and the aftermath, including Glenna’s conviction.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to the Case & Unusual Evidence

• Jumping Right In: The hosts note this Thursday episode skips shout-outs, focusing solely on the crime.
  “All right, man. We're jumping right in… There's no shout outs. There's no nothing.” (00:43)
• The Crime: Glenna murdered her husband mainly to cover up debts and impending foreclosure she hid from him. Evidence later emerged from Marty’s talking parrot, Bud.
  “But I don't believe we've ever talked about a talking parrot helping to solve the case.” (01:39)

2. Background on Marty and Glenna Duram

• Both had children from prior marriages—“the Brady Bunch effect” (02:21).
• Marty was a family man, loved the outdoors and hunting, and had disabling injuries from a 1995 car accident causing memory loss and lasting physical limitations.

3. Financial Pressures and Gambling Addiction

• Glenna earned ~$3,200/month as Marty’s caregiver; Marty received $1,100 in disability.
  “Even if you totaled [their incomes], it wouldn’t total up $75,000 a year.” (08:28)
• Glenna was heavily addicted to gambling, spending thousands on lottery tickets and casinos, far outstripping their income.
• She secretly ran up debts, kept bills from Marty, and lied about car payments.

4. Debts and the Imminent Foreclosure

• Signs of financial distress: IRS debts, attempts to repossess the couple’s car, persistent medical bill collectors.
• Foreclosure became imminent, culminating in legal notices and public postings. Marty only discovered this from his mother, not Glenna.
• “His first thought was, well, I got to ask Glenna about this.” (13:43)
• By the time of the murder, they had less than $500 across all accounts. Their house was to be auctioned the day of the crime.

5. The Murder Scene Discovery

• Neighbor Connie, suspicious after not hearing from the Durams—despite daily contact—discovered the bodies.
  [Connie enters the house] “There was a bowl of spaghetti and garlic bread on the kitchen table, as if someone's meal was interrupted.” (22:36)
• The living room and bedroom were in disarray, and Connie found Marty dead, Glenna appearing dead but actually alive and severely injured.

6. Glenna Survived

• Glenna, found with gunshot wounds, eventually sat upright, confusing and shocking the witnesses.
• Her wounds were non-lethal, and she was combative and confused upon recovery. “Apparently, she asked the officer, what are you doing? Okay. Yeah. Right now I'm about ready to go clean out my jockey shorts because you just scared the... you know what out of me…” (28:22)

7. Crime Scene Evidence and Initial Theories

• Autopsy: Marty shot three times at close range, two additional wounds; hairs found in his hand.
• Police discovered the murder weapon (a .22 caliber Ruger revolver) hidden under a loveseat, with clues suggesting intent to muffle shots (pillow with holes).
• No sign of a break-in; nothing was stolen, weakening the home invasion theory.

8. Suspicions and Suicide Letters

• Glenna frequently joked about killing Marty for money (34:16), and relatives recounted Glenna finding Marty hard to care for.
• Martin’s children discovered suicide letters addressed to Glenna’s own children and ex-husband, as well as unmentioned cash envelopes—raising questions about the thoroughness of the police search.

Notable Quote

“I mean, this is such a strange scenario… she's acting as though… she doesn't know who's going. What's going on?” — Mike Ferguson (29:41)

9. The Role of the Parrot, Bud

• Months after the murder, Marty’s ex-wife, now caring for the parrot, noticed Bud repeating phrases like “Don't effing shoot!” in what sounded like Marty’s voice (60:40).
• The parrot seemed to re-enact an argument, and family members eventually filmed and submitted this to the media, drawing widespread attention.
• The hosts are both amazed and amused: “I've never heard of this ever. Now I've never had a parrot. I know. They're amazing birds. They can do a lot of things.” (61:40)

10. Glenna's Internet Searches and Texts

• Glenna’s phone records revealed searches involving the Ruger revolver in the early morning of the murder, as well as a suspiciously timed “Love you. Sorry.” text to her mother (50:59).

11. Aftermath and Investigation Closure

• Glenna survived and required months of medical rehabilitation.
• Relatives and Marty's children were convinced of Glenna’s guilt, frustrated by slow police progress.
• The parrot’s recordings may not have been direct evidence in court, but the unusual “testimony” put further public and investigative pressure on the authorities.

12. Conviction

• Glenna was ultimately convicted of first-degree murder and felony firearm, receiving a life sentence (August 2017).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the uniqueness of this case:
  “We've covered [women murdering husbands] many times. Often it has to do with money... But I don't believe we've ever talked about a talking parrot helping to solve the case.” — Mike Ferguson (01:33)

• On Glenna’s gambling:
  “Clerks at several gas stations near the couple's home would report that Glenna bought lottery tickets often... She purchased 50 to $100 worth of tickets three to four times a week.” — Mike Ferguson (07:07)

• Humor and shock at the parrot’s “testimony”:
  “During the investigation, several people asked the police whether they had interviewed Marty's parrot. And I know we're talking about death... but there's no way that that's not humorous. The parrot part.” — Mike Ferguson (59:22)

  “Christina took a video of the parrot saying things like, shut up, get your blank over here, and don't blanking shoot.” — Mike Ferguson (60:42)

• On the surreal crime scene:
  “Imagine walking into this scene... These are your neighbors, apparently friends... and it appears to be a pretty horrific crime scene.” — Mike Ferguson (23:41)

• On possible motives:
  “It's more of financial ruin, that she doesn't want to be exposed, but there's no way around it. And so she's going to kill Marty, she's going to shoot her[self] and kill herself, and then she's not going to have to deal with it, I guess...” — Mike Ferguson (65:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:57] — Crime overview & mention of the parrot
• [02:23–06:35] — The Durams’ background, finances, gambling addiction
• [08:28] — Casino spending and escalation of debt
• [12:51–15:29] — Foreclosure and hidden financial crises
• [18:25] — Discovery of the crime scene by neighbor Connie Ream
• [23:09–27:14] — Crime scene details; Glenna is found alive
• [29:04–31:11] — Autopsy, gun evidence; early home-invasion theory
• [34:16–38:56] — Glenna’s remarks about “killing Marty”; family dynamics
• [41:17] — Discovery of suicide letters & issues with the police search
• [50:59] — Glenna's incriminating phone searches and apology text
• [59:22–64:04] — Parrot “testimony,” media attention, charges
• [64:04–66:22] — Verdict, sentencing, and closing reflections

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Final Reflections

Mike and Gibby wrap up by marveling at the bizarre elements of the Duram case—especially Bud the parrot’s unintentional role in cementing Glenna’s guilt. The episode underscores the tragic outcome of unchecked addiction and secrets, and the unique, almost surreal moments that sometimes accompany even the darkest true crime stories.

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For listeners: Even without hearing the episode, you’ll walk away understanding the complexity, irony, and tragic undertones of Glenna Duram’s case—and you’ll never forget the talking parrot.

Transcript

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 489 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, my Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great. You pause there. I didn't know if you were going to ask me or not.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm trying to be given that dramatic effect.

[Mike Ferguson]

Dramatic pause, they call.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, man. We're jumping right in these Thursday episodes, you know, they're kind of different. The YouTube videos and the Thursday episode just kind of, you know, get to it. There's no shout outs. There's no nothing.

[Mike Gibson]

We don't mess around. We just get down.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. We're talking about Glenna Durham. Glenna Durham murdered her husband to conceal DATs and an impending foreclosure that she'd been hiding from him. Months after the murders, or the murder, I guess I should say, family members came forward with evidence from her husband's talking parrot, who appeared to have witnessed the shooting.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably won a cracker.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I, you know, this is one that kind of jumped out at me. Is all right. You know, we try to do some strange ones every now and then. Now, a woman murdering her husband is not the strangest thing.

[Mike Gibson]

That is not.

[Mike Ferguson]

We've covered that many times. Often it has to do with money.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which this one does. But I don't believe we've ever talked about a talking parrot helping to solve the case.

[Mike Gibson]

Not that I remember.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's. I think what we're getting into here. So Marty and Glenna Durham were married for 11 years. They shared a home in Sand Lake, Michigan. Marty had three adult children from an earlier marriage. And Glenn ahead, too. And, you know, I think that's quite common. Right. When you're talking about second or third marriages later in life. Okay. People are often, you know, going into those marriages with children, sometimes grown children from previous relationships.

[Mike Gibson]

We call that the Brady Bunch effect.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Marty was described as a family man who loved the outdoors. He was also a proud grandfather, and he was in a car accident in 1995 that jarred his brain and shattered the left side of his body. He was in a coma for a Month after the accident, according to Glenna, he couldn't remember his first marriage or the births of his children.

[Mike Gibson]

That could be rough.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a, a very serious accident. And you know, let's face it, you and I on this podcast have talked a lot about, you know, traumatic brain injuries because a lot of the serial killers that we've profiled have had a history of those.

[Mike Gibson]

They have.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it, it in a lot of cases has played a factor maybe in what they've gone on to do. But yeah, I don't know. You know, that concussion thing, and this is obviously probably way worse than two football players running into each other. This is a really bad car accident. But it's still that the brain moving around inside the skull, it can cause quite a bit of damage and long lasting effects.

[Mike Gibson]

It certainly can.

[Mike Ferguson]

His condition worsened. In 2010, Glenna began earning almost $3,200, a little bit less a month for taking care of her husband. Marty received eleven hundred dollars a month in disability. They split the money evenly.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's interesting. She got paid to take care of her husband.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, now the splitting of the money, that doesn't surprise me. I think a lot of married people, you know, pool their finances.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do know some people who complete ha. Have completely separate finances.

[Mike Gibson]

Who do I.

[Mike Ferguson]

My best friend in the world. He and his wife have been married almost 30 years now. Yeah. And ever since I've known them, they have kept separate checking accounts.

[Mike Gibson]

But yet you're on his checking account with him, which I'm sure the wife thinks is strange, but hey, whatever.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you know, it's. I ask him all the time, how do you divvy it up? He's like, well, I pay for these bills and she pays for these bills. And I'm like, I don't know my wife. And I just throw everything into the

[Mike Gibson]

pot and she takes it all.

[Mike Ferguson]

She does. And then I meet the Amazon guy at the door.

[Mike Gibson]

That's right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Wife order this time, the delivery driver. But even with all this going on. Right. Marty was still able to spend time outdoors. His favorite pastime was hunting, which a lot of people are hunters. I'm not, I've never been a hunter. But, you know, I think it does kind of give you at least some idea of what his limitations were. He had them, there's no doubt, but to he could still go hunting. So that has to tell you something a little bit.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, you're operating a gun, you're. You're doing stuff like that. It was said that Glenna's favorite pastime was gambling.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, that's a dangerous past time.

[Mike Ferguson]

It can be for sure, for a lot of people. Now, I'm not a gambler either. I'm a lot of things, but a hunter and a gambler is. Is not in my repertoire. I've been gambling. I've been to casinos. It's just not something that I really have ever found a lot of enjoyment in.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, and be honest, last time we went to Vegas for crime con a few years ago, I'm going to be curious, what happens this year. They did ask you to leave the casino because you. You are good at counting cards. I. I am so. And they picked up on it pretty quick.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

So we'll see if they let you back in.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, but really what happened was my daughter had just turned 21.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I gave her a hundred dollars.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

To gamble with. And I turned around, and she's like, dad, my money's gone.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Like, I didn't even get to. She was. She was at, like, one of the slot machines or something. She's just, like, pressing buttons.

[Mike Gibson]

Slow down, honey. Slow down.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, so. Yeah, maybe that's part of why I don't. But Clerks at several gas stations near the couple's home would report that Glenna bought lottery tickets often. She purchased 50 to $100 worth of tickets three to four times a week at one of the gas stations.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow, that's. That's a problem.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So a lot of people like scratch offs.

[Mike Gibson]

They do.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I bought some scratch offs before. They can be fun. But, you know, we just said how much money they were bringing in. And to me, gambling is kind of one of those disposable income type deals. Right. The best thing is to set aside X amount of money and just assume you're going to lose that, and you got to be okay with that.

[Mike Gibson]

You know how you can kind of want to say, fix the scratch off problem, but slow it down. Instead of having been scratch off, have them be lick off.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is your gambling solution.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. That's how, you know, it would definitely slow the process down.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe. I guess it depends. Are they flavored? I mean, maybe it's just another reason to get them.

[Mike Gibson]

Just make them all black. Licorice flavor.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, gosh. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it wasn't just scratch offs. Right. She also went to casinos once or twice a week, usually with Marty. In 2010, Glenna gambled $75,000 at local casinos, according to the Detroit News.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's more money than her 3000

[Mike Ferguson]

and some dollars that she was getting and Marty's 1100. Even if you totaled them, it wouldn't total up $75,000 a year. During a 2012 trip to visit Marty's brother Dan in Montana, the couple couldn't travel anywhere without Glenna wanting to stop at a casino.

[Mike Gibson]

It's an addiction.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think that's what. You know, all of this is painting because Dan said that he saw Glenna put hundred dollar bills into slot machines, and she asked him not to tell Marty. Now, I just said I gave my daughter a hundred dollars, she put it in, and before you know, it was gone. Yeah, not that hard. Depending on what type of slots you're playing, to lose hundreds and hundreds of dollars pretty quickly.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Doesn't. Doesn't take much time at all.

[Mike Ferguson]

And so, you know, these gambling adventures, I'll call them. Eventually started causing financial problems. And how could they not? We just mentioned it. Right. If you're spending way more than you're bringing in on gambling, well, you still got to pay for food and, you know, housing, utilities, all of that. How could you not have financial problems? Yeah, it was said the comp. The couple owed money to the IRS and a collections agency tried to repossess one of their cars, but it was Glenna, right, who managed the finances. And she kept all these debts hidden from Marty. And why would she do that?

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I mean, look, it's not a good thing, right? I mean, because she knows if he finds out there's major issues coming down the road.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, he's probably going to want to try to put a stop to that.

[Mike Gibson]

He'll have to, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, because it's not sustainable. She told Marty she was making car payments, but she wasn't. Yeah. Marty was said to have been a pretty frugal person. He was known for turning lights off and keeping the heat low to save

[Mike Gibson]

money, and that just kind of count. I mean, you're trying to save everything you can over here, but yet on this side, you know, your spouse is just, you know, willy nilly spending everything at the casinos.

[Mike Ferguson]

But you don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

But you don't know it. You're just like, why aren't we making any headway? Why are we going the opposite direction?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I don't even know if he knows that part.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because he's not managing the finances, and he probably only knows exactly what Glenna is telling him. And I'm assuming that it's. Hey, fine. Everything's fine, you know, good. Don't worry. But, you know, Being a frugal person or the things that were said about Marty really made me think of you.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, you are, in some instances, pretty frugal. Can be in others, very generous.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's kind of strange the way you operate, but, you know, teach his own. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I, I, My wallet's right

[Mike Ferguson]

here, or it's somewhere.

[Mike Gibson]

Somewhere probably locked up in the vehicle.

[Mike Ferguson]

It just doesn't get used. Yeah. But Glenna was also dealing with health problems. Around the time of the shooting, she had bronchitis and was going back and forth with her insurance for refusing to pay for X rays of her back. Debt collectors were calling about her medical bill. She had also stopped taking medication for depression. So I feel like we have, like, a perfect storm. Right. Of, of things that are going on. I will say this about debt collectors for medical bills. I feel like they are relentless.

[Mike Gibson]

They are.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, if I get a medical bill in the mail today, tomorrow, I'm probably going to get a call. Yeah. Wondering if, When I'm going to pay it. And I tell them, I literally just got it yesterday.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe they expected me to pay it yesterday, I guess.

[Mike Gibson]

But my rule is allow it to cycle through a few times. Make sure the insurance company, I know that you. Everything they should have done before I have to work.

[Mike Ferguson]

And my oldest is kind of the same way. She said to me one time she threw away a bill or something. I said, honey, you can't throw away those type of bills. She's like, if it's important, they'll send it again. I was like, all right. I don't think that's the way you should operate, but you're an adult.

[Mike Gibson]

She's like, gibby does.

[Mike Ferguson]

I can't tell you what to do. In April 2015, Marty received a call from his mother, Lillian, who informed him that a legal notice in the local paper said his home was being foreclosed. And that is part of the foreclosure process. Right. There's a legal notice that goes in the paper. Just so happened that his mother saw it and was like, hey, wanted to let you know that the paper saying your, your home's about ready to be foreclosed.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, think about what you used to do for work.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

What I kind of still do for work. How many times did we get those calls from people saying, I didn't even know this happened?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, my spouse didn't tell me,

[Mike Ferguson]

and, and some of we always thought that was bs, but some of those are pretty true.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Wasn't going to change anything. But what are you going to do? But I think, as you can expect. Right. His first thought was, well, I got to ask Glenna about this. She said it was a mistake and would call the bank. And I have a feeling that this was probably a cycle. Right. He would get hints that maybe some things financially were not going great.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

But every time he would bring it up to her, she probably had an answer. Many people do in these type of scenarios. It's a bank error or, you know, I'll take care of it, I'll fix it, and then that part kind of goes away. On April 28, foreclosure papers were placed on the Durham's front door. And I think. All right, when you get to that point, I don't know how you're explaining that. I don't know how you're spinning that. If you're. Glenna.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. At that point, I think you're out of excuses. I mean, obviously you could try to make some, but it's going to be very difficult.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I. I think in a lot of these types of cases, you know, people are doing something that they know is not sustainable.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're getting away with it for a while, but they have to know in their hearts that at some point they're going to be exposed.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. It's all going to catch up to them. And. And when it does, that, that seems oftentimes to be when something bad happens. And I think we're, you know, we're going to see it here, too. After Marty's death, the executor of his estate would tell police the 700 monthly mortgage payments hadn't been paid for a year.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Not surprised if they're that far into foreclosure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Because it does take a quite a while.

[Mike Gibson]

It does.

[Mike Ferguson]

From missing first payment to ultimately getting to the point where, you know, you're. You're foreclosed on. The couple's checking Account had just $182 in it. It had $118 in a savings account and a safe in their home with $200 and change.

[Mike Gibson]

So barely $500 in their name.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, exactly. 500. If I'm doing the math right.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't want to brag and call it out to be. Exactly. I was just trying to play it down a little bit, really. Minsa.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I know you don't like to show off.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't. I tried. I tried not to. Did you see my cup? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Everybody has seen it.

[Mike Gibson]

Have you?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Actually, one of the M is starting to wear off already, is it? I have to order a new one. The couple's home was scheduled to be auctioned off by the Sheriff's office on May 12, 2015, which turned out to be the day of the shooting. This time of year always makes me rethink what's in my closet. I'm trying to keep fewer things but better ones. Pieces that are well made and easy to wear all the time. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality everyday essentials using premium materials like 100% European and linen and their insanely soft flow knit activewear fabric. Their men's linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable and comfortable. Basically the perfect layer for spring. And their Flowknit activewear is my absolute favorite. I love their shorts, their pants, their tops. It's moisture, wicking, anti odor and soft enough that you'll actually want to wear it all day. And I do actually wearing it right now as I record this ad. The best part is that their prices are 50 to 60% less than similar brands. How Quint works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. Everything is designed to last and make getting dressed easy. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to Quince.comTCAT for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Quince.com TCATT for free shipping and 365 day returns.

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[Mike Ferguson]

At 7:30am on May 12, neighbor Connie Ream was heading to work and she heard two gunshots. Now, she wasn't alarmed because she knew Marty Hunted in the area. Connie and her husband Keith were good friends with the Durham. Connie normally talked to or texted Glenna daily. And you know, we talk about this quite a bit. People hearing gunshots.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you know, it really does depend on where you Live what your situation is, how close your neighbors are. You know, if you live in New York City, hearing a gunshot is, you know, alarming. I would think if you live in the Midwest and you're more rural, it may not be as alarming.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think I could walk out my back door and fire my gun

[Mike Ferguson]

and nobody would ever say anything. No, no, probably not. Call the police. And now it may be legal, it may not be depending on whether you live. I know for me here whether you live in the city or the township.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you live in the township, apparently you can fire your gun whenever you want, not, not at someone, but you know what I'm saying. But if you live in the city, you can't.

[Mike Gibson]

But strangely, when I walk around town with my K bar, I get stopped.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a big knife.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a scary knife.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But so I'm getting the, the kind of idea that, you know, maybe they were a little more rural. Their neighbors were used to him hunting on that land or they had a little bit of land or whatever it was. So gunshots weren't out of the ordinary.

[Mike Gibson]

Just not surprised.

[Mike Ferguson]

Later that day, Connie received a call from her husband who reported that Marty was not responding to his texts. So after work, Connie went over to the Durham's house. She knocked on the doors and windows. No one appeared to be home except for the dog who was barking. Later that evening, she sent Glenna a text asking if she and Marty were home. She received no response. Connie's husband Keith jokingly texted Glenna, what have you done with Marty?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh man.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it's going to turn out to be pretty prophetic. Right. But it really sounds to me like these are some neighbors who were very close.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, texting, calling daily. I don't even know some of my neighbors names. I'm certainly not calling or texting them on a daily basis.

[Mike Gibson]

Guarantee you, you do not even know any of their names.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know one of them, another guy across the street, because he's very nice. He throws up.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

He throws up his hand. We sometimes meet halfway and talk for a little bit.

[Mike Gibson]

One of. One of those neighbors.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. But for some reason, you know, I've lived here, I don't know, 23, 24 years.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I have not had a great track record of neighbors.

[Mike Gibson]

That might be your opening line to

[Mike Ferguson]

them, you know, which is what? High with a wave, if you want

[Mike Gibson]

to call it that.

[Mike Ferguson]

The old people that. Not old, they weren't old. But the people who used to live next door to Me?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I literally to the guy one time said, hey, threw up my hand. He gave me the finger and walked inside. I'm like, okay, what did I do?

[Mike Gibson]

I guess we're not going to be buddies.

[Mike Ferguson]

And from then on, just, you know, know. That kind of tells you everything you need to know about what the relationship's going to be.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we've got nobody answering. We got a dog barking. At 3:30pm Connie decided to go back and check the house again. This time she noticed that the front door was unlocked. She entered the home and saw the living room in disarray, which she has said was not normal. A broken lamp and several items were strewn across the living room and bedroom. There was a bowl of spaghetti and garlic bread on the kitchen table, as if someone's meal was interrupted. And I think if you're that close, you've been in the house a lot.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know what kind of housekeepers they are. So, you know, whether the house looks like, you know, it normally does or

[Mike Gibson]

it doesn't, in this case, it didn't look normal.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, who in their right mind leaves a full bowl of sketti with some

[Mike Gibson]

garlic bread uneaten, especially if it's mom's spaghetti?

[Mike Ferguson]

They are in near Detroit, so that was actually a pretty good reference because Eminem was, you know, on 8 mile. You didn't know I would get that, though.

[Mike Gibson]

I wasn't too sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

The dog appeared to have been left alone for hours, but possibly even days. There was feces near the back door. The Connie entered the bedroom and stepped over some blankets on the floor, then found Marty on the floor in a pool of blood. Glenna was lying under the blankets. She was pale and her hair was matted in blood. I mean, I don't even know how you can imagine walking into this scene.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

These are your neighbors, apparently friends they were close to. And it appears to be a pretty horrific crime scene.

[Mike Gibson]

It would be very difficult to process.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So Connie believed that both of them were dead, and she ran to a nearby house for help. She returned with three firemen who were responding to an incident nearby. When she reentered the room, Connie thought Glenna's head was in a slightly different position, but she didn't say anything because she wasn't sure. She thought it could just be her imagination.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I think, you know, if you just kind of break it down. Right. She knew without a doubt that, you know, Marty's dead. He's lying in a pool of blood. But the description she gave of Glenna, you know, Pale, matted, blood in her hair. You would look at that. She's not moving. You would think, oh, my gosh, they're both dead.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

But now she comes back and she's like, oh, her head seems to have moved. But I could be imagining that. I'm not going to. To point it out.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, she probably is going through some shock at that moment, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Some trauma. It's got to be a traumatic event for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

So, you know, she has to think about, what did I really see when I first came in?

[Mike Ferguson]

And what do I want to say?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. The firefighters were in the home for a short time before they made the decision to back out of the residence because it appeared to be a crime scene. According to police reports, the victims also appeared to be dead. I can definitely see how they would make that assumption. And it doesn't appear to be accidental that you have two people dead. Right.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. It's not going to be accidental.

[Mike Ferguson]

When police arrived, Connie assisted by dealing with the couple's dog, who had curled up next to Marty and was growling.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And. And you hear that, right? You hear about that. Dogs trying to protect their. Their owners or not wanting to leave their owner's side after they die.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it's sad. It is that, number one, the person has died, but then, number two, it's sad that the dog is, like. Thinks that, you know, they have to try to protect them or I don't know if they know that the person is dead. I don't really know what dogs are thinking in that situation, but it's very sad.

[Mike Gibson]

It is sad.

[Mike Ferguson]

When Connie heard an officer speak to Glenna, she turned in that direction and was shocked to see her sit upright.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we just mentioned. Right. Shock. A little bit of trauma or a lot of trauma. Traumatic situation. Okay. Now all of a sudden, this person who you thought was dead is sitting upright, and that's got to be a different kind of shock.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it shocked her and probably the firefighters and everybody else because

[Mike Ferguson]

they thought she was dead as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Marty was confirmed dead at the scene from multiple gunshot wounds, but Glenna had survived a gunshot wound behind the right ear. It took an hour for an officer to check her pulse to confirm if she was alive or dead. So that tells me they thought that she was dead, too.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Upon, you know, arriving at the scene, if it took an hour for them to even confirm, like, I don't know, she's dead.

[Mike Gibson]

No, she's not. Yes, she is. No, she's not.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, obviously, Once they did confirm, then that's when she must have sat up. And because they're talking to her at that point, Michigan State Police trooper Sgt. Gary Wilson was trying to coax the couple's growling dog outside. When he thought he saw Glenna breathing, he went to check her pulse. As soon as he touched her, her eyes flew open and her body jerked. Oh, I'm getting freaked out just thinking about. I mean, this is like something that you might see in some type of scary movie.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you got to wonder, is it to say, you know, like a muscle memory reaction or something? You know, when people die, sometimes their bodies move. Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't. I'm not sure that muscle memory is the correct term for that. There's probably not, but I know what you're saying. There is movement in certain muscles even

[Mike Gibson]

after death, some type of reaction, but

[Mike Ferguson]

I. I don't know if, you know, eyes opening is one of those muscle movements. Apparently, she asked the officer, what are you doing? Okay. Yeah. Right now I'm about ready to go clean out my jockey shorts because you just scared the. You know what out of me because

[Mike Gibson]

I kind of thought you were dead.

[Mike Ferguson]

And. And it was said that she was confused, she was combative. Sergeant Wilson couldn't tell how severely injured she was because she wouldn't stop moving. And it was said that she continued to be combative. During the ambulance ride to the hospital, she asked multiple times as she was being restrained, why are you doing this, Marty?

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, so she definitely was confused or

[Mike Ferguson]

she was putting on a show or

[Mike Gibson]

putting on a show.

[Mike Ferguson]

There's really only, you know, one. One or two or a couple of options there. She also complained that someone was stepping on her hair as she was being carried out of her home. A neurosurgeon found two bullet wounds on the right side of her skull that were non lethal and could possibly result in no loss of consciousness, allowing her to be ambulatory. Okay, so, I mean, this is such a strange scenario.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, she's acting as though. Well, she's acting, let's be honest, like she wasn't even alive right. At the time people were in there. And then when she does kind of wake up, for lack of a better term, it's like she doesn't know who's going. What's going on? She thinks it's Marty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She thinks somebody stepping on her hair.

[Mike Gibson]

Either she's going through this, or she's really putting on a pretty good show.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. Now, let's talk about these two bullet wounds right Non lethal, and the neurosurgeon is saying most likely wouldn't even result in the loss of consciousness. So these really had to be, like, grazers, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Pretty minimal, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

When police first tried to talk to Glenn at the hospital, she yelled out Marty's name. Later, she only gave brief responses and claimed she didn't know what happened. An autopsy determined that Marty was shot three times at close range. Two more shots were fired into his back and forearm. He had some hairs that were found in his right hand. So I think, first off, I think police have to believe that this was some type of, what, home invasion? An intruder came in, shot Marty, shot Glenna. Maybe she passed out.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think at first look, that's the direction you would go.

[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators searched the house and found blood stains on the couch and bullets in the living room. There were several fired cartridge casings on the bed and one unfired cartridge. On the bedroom floor was a key to Marty's gun safe. A.22 caliber Ruger revolver, which was determined to be the murder weapon, was found under a loveseat in the living room. But investigators also found a pillow with holes in it and Glenna and Marty's cell phones. So, I mean. All right, now what do you think? For me, it's. Does somebody come in, somehow get Marty's keys to the safe?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Get out a.22 caliber gun and shoot them both. And is somebody using a pillow possibly to. To muffle the sounds or not to

[Mike Gibson]

look at the person's face?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, possibly. But would an intruder do that?

[Mike Gibson]

No, I think the intruder would do what you said. They would, use it to muffle the sound.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And then what do you make? They don't take cell phones. It doesn't sound like, at least from what we know, there was anything really taken from the house. So you got to wonder why somebody would do this.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, and I think if you were an intruder and you use the gun you found there as the murder weapon, why would you leave it behind?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's. That's good thing. I mean, it's good thinking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. But I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they're wearing gloves.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, right now, there's a. There's a number of different theories I think that you can take a look at, but those closest to the couple said that they thought it was unlikely that a random intruder attacked the couple. Marty was said to have been very wary of strangers, and he always kept the doors locked and deadbolted. Marty and Glenna were private people. They didn't have a ton of friends. They loved each other, but they did have some rough patches.

[Mike Gibson]

Everybody goes through some rough patches now and then.

[Mike Ferguson]

They do. I would say some people have rougher patches than others.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If that makes sense. And some people, you know, they have great years for a while, and then things get rough. Some people, you know, it can be rough and then things smooth out as the marriage goes on. Every marriage is a little different, but one of the jokes that Glenna frequently made was that she was waiting for Marty to die or she was going to kill him so she could collect his money and possessions. When she said this in front of Marty, he would laugh. It didn't seem to bother him.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, it's probably was funny to them.

[Mike Ferguson]

To them? To them being who?

[Mike Gibson]

To them being, you know, her. You know, her and Marty, thinking that they're just joking about it. So as the friends hearing it, you're thinking, oh, they're just joking.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. To outsiders.

[Mike Gibson]

Until it actually happens. Yeah. And then you're like, well, even to

[Mike Ferguson]

Marty, I can understand. Right. Because he's probably not thinking that my wife would ever actually hurt me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you just wouldn't. I mean, if your wife joked around, like, and said something like that to you, if I was around, I would laugh, like, yeah. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I've been married 30 years. I mean, if she wanted to, she could have killed me at any time.

[Mike Gibson]

Just with her food.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sorry. She's come close a few times.

[Mike Gibson]

Sorry. I'll pay for that one.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Relatives told investigators that the couple's main source of income were payments Glenna received from the state and her husband's Supplemental Security and income. So, I mean, they didn't work, right? Marty wasn't able to work. Right. Glenna didn't work because I think she had to take care of Marty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So they were, you know, being supported by state funds or federal funds, one of the two. According to a police report of an interview with a relative, Glenna indicated that Marty was a pain to take care of, and one of these days she was going to kill him. So she's joking about it to neighbors and even in front of Marty. And then she's also saying that very same thing to relatives is a lot right of I'm going to kill him.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, the problem is, hey, I understand. You know, when somebody goes through that type of event and now you have to take care of them because, you know, when you get married, you sign up for better or for worse or

[Mike Ferguson]

till death do us part or till

[Mike Gibson]

death do you part. So there you go.

[Mike Ferguson]

Do they even say that stuff anymore?

[Mike Gibson]

I don't know. It's been a long time since I've.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, for me, 30 years. I have no idea what they say.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, my.

[Mike Ferguson]

My oldest Daughter is getting married in a couple months, so we'll see what they say now.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, some. A lot of times today, they come up with their own. Their own vows, you know, like, that

[Mike Ferguson]

might not be great in every scenario.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably not.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to Marty's daughter, he wore a leg brace and. And could walk, but he needed Glenna to drive him to appointments. His disability hindered him more as he aged, but he still enjoyed hunting. And let's face it, we're all hindered more as we age.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Regardless of what type of disability you might have, I feel very hindered sometimes when I wake up in the morning.

[Mike Gibson]

Takes you a little bit of time to get going.

[Mike Ferguson]

Absolutely. Marty kept about 20 long guns and several handguns in a large safe in the home. Some of those he was holding for his father. So, you know what that tells me is 20 long guns and then just a few handguns. That kind of screams out, you're a hunter.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you got. You got a ton of long guns. Family and neighbors also noted that the home was in foreclosure and that the couple frequented casinos. Marty's mother, Lillian, said he was unaware he was in foreclosure until she notified him about the newspaper listing. So, you know, we talked about some of this stuff already, but now it's like being found out by the authorities as they're doing the investigation. And you have to think with every kind of little nugget. Right. That they're uncovering, it has to start leading them to believe that maybe Glenna had something to do with this.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, when you think about the foreclosure action, look at the finances, I mean, you have to kind of lean into that direction somewhat.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You gotta think it's at least a possibility or it's gotta be ruled out. Right. At the very least. The day after Marty was found, his three children used a credit card to pick the lock and search the home. On the living room floor, they found an envelope labeled personal and Jane Waringa, who is Glenna's mother. They opened the sealed envelope and found three more envelopes addressed to Glenna's two children and her ex husband, Bob Norman. Norman was asked to take care of their kids. In the letters addressed to her children, Glenna asked for forgiveness. She wrote, per the Detroit News, I'm sorry, but I love you and so sorry I've been a disappointment to you these last 12 years or so. Please forgive me. You're one of the best things I ever did love, Mom. All right, what do you think if you're the kids reading this.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Sounds like she met to take her life.

[Mike Ferguson]

That sounds to me like a suicide letter. Yeah, it really does. Marty's children found ripped up foreclosure papers among Glenna's belongings. They speculated that the issue may have led to a fight that escalated. Marty's children called the police to report what they found. Now, I found this very strange because you have this, what appears to be, to me, a murder scene, at the very least, a crime scene. But to me, it's a murder scene. And. Okay, did they not search the house? How did they not find this. This envelope? Also, did they not seal up the crime scene? I mean, what's going on here? Because they're just able to use a credit card, get back in there and find something that police didn't know about.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it seems a little strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

It does.

[Mike Gibson]

That they were able to find these things. I mean. I mean, we've all used credit cards to break into places, so that's, you know, not that strange to hear, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. It is to me. I've never done it.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

First of all, I don't want to

[Mike Gibson]

break my credit cards, membership card, credit card.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm just assuming you have specialized tools.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, have those. Sometimes it's just easy to use that plastic card, you know, don't have to break out those special tools.

[Mike Ferguson]

So, you know, the kids called the police, say, hey, we found these envelopes. Here's what they said, but they didn't mention that they found cash in the couple's Safe. They found $225 in an envelope labeled Mount and twelve hundred dollars in an envelope labeled Waverunner.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, Mount. Maybe because he was gonna mount one of his hunting trophies.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, possible. I would think more maybe a mount for a new scope or.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But to me, these are saving envelopes.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because my wife used to do this very same thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Keep those envelopes and film full.

[Mike Ferguson]

She would have multiple envelopes, and she write on them. Yeah, for what? She wanted to save up for what we needed to save up for. This is before, you know, a lot of banks started allowing you to have, like, sub accounts.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because now she has a bunch of different accounts, and she labels them. Whatever.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. This is a. Mike's not supposed to know about. The other one Mike's not supposed to know about. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And one's for the. The kids is tuition.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, anytime I see something like this, though, when you go back to, like, an intruder theory. Well, we Know someone was in the safe.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Whoever killed Marty was in the safe. Yeah. We know they didn't take cell phones, but here's like fourteen hundred dollars just sitting in a couple of envelopes. Is an intruder not going to see those and or at least look in those envelopes and take that money?

[Mike Gibson]

You would think they would.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Why wouldn't they?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I can't imagine why they wouldn't. Detective Sergeant Scott Rios learned about the missing money from Glenna's side of the family. Marty's children admitted to taking it. When asked why they hadn't told the police earlier, they said the police hadn't

[Mike Gibson]

asked, which I understand. They're saying, if the police would have asked, we would have told them. Maybe, but why wouldn't you just say it right out from the very beginning? Because it could make a difference in how the case is looked at.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could, but I also get it right. You want that money. And I go back to my other point, which is the police have already been in there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

How did they not find it? How did they not find these other envelopes? Right. Now, maybe they were set to come back and do a more thorough search, but if that was the case, then you would think that the crime scene would have been more sealed. I get it. The door was locked, but, yeah, maybe

[Mike Gibson]

more secured or had some on duty. Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

Somehow. Now, if they did do a complete search, it obviously wasn't a very thorough one. While the police were investigating the desk, they were contacted by Fran Phelan, the wife of one of Marty's cousins. In a meeting with police the week after the shooting, Fran said she did psychic readings. She began reading from a notebook and told Trooper Barry Wolf it was important to look under the couch or love seat of the Durham home. She also said Marty and Glenna were right handed and their hands were important to the investigation. And I've talked about psychics. You know how I feel about psychics. Yeah, but. Okay. I don't know how she's coming up with this. You know why it's important to look under the couch now, them being right handed, you don't have to be a psychic to know that.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

She's a cousin, so I mean, she's not a person who doesn't know them is not related to them.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You could also make an argument that the hand, whether a person is right hand or left handed, is important to an investigation where shooting is involved. True, because you're trying to figure out if the suspect is right handed, left handed, and we mention it Right. The murder weapon was found under the love seat, and Marty was clutching a clump of hair in his hand. Fran was then asked where she was at the time of the shootings. She provided an alibi that she was with her daughter. She also expressed her belief in Glenna's innocence, and I understand why they would want an alibi from her. You are basically giving information that possibly you shouldn't have known. Now, maybe she really is psychic. I don't know. But you could also be the killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Very true.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's how you know that. That information. But during probate hearings where Glenn and Marty's children fought over his possessions, Fran testified on Glenna's behalf. And these hearings, it was said, really caused a lot of friction between the two families.

[Mike Gibson]

They can.

[Mike Ferguson]

And they. They often can. Right. You have someone who dies. There are people who want possessions, whether it's out of greed or. I think oftentimes it's just out of. They've lost their loved ones, and they want certain things that remind them or have sentimental value.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of like self preservation.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't understand that at all. How is that. How is wanting something that's sentimental self preservation?

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I mean, preservation.

[Mike Ferguson]

Let me backtrack of that.

[Mike Gibson]

Those things for yourself.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's what you mean by self Preserving them for yourself. Did I mention self preservation? Okay, I. I mean, I understand what you're saying now. You want what you want. Self. Profession. That'd been the quicker way, I guess. I don't know. After a probate hearing in July 2015, Marty's brother, Dan Durham, wrote to Fran's husband, Scott, you should keep a loaded gun at your side, because who knows what can happen? Look what happened to Marty. Yeah, Okay. I mean, that's. To me, it's a. It's a threat. Now, you could say. I think the person making it could make an argument. No, it's not a threat. I was just saying, hey, you know, you should be safe. Look what happened to Marty. But to me, I'm taking that as a threat.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

After a probate hearing in October 2015, an arrow was left at Fran's home with the message, you're next written on it.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, if that's not a threat, I

[Mike Gibson]

don't know what is, but definitely seems like a threat.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pretty hard to make any other reasonable conclusion right out of that one. Police did not provide updates on Glenna's condition, but it was later reported that. That her injuries required months of rehabilitation. Okay, so, you know, we kind of talked about maybe they were grazing type wounds. But now you find out that, okay, she had to go through months of rehabilitation. They might have been quite a bit more serious than them first thought. Although she wasn't available for questioning, they were looking at her as a suspect. Her phone data showed that from 3:32 to 4:48am on May 12, 2015, her phone was used five times to look up information about Ruger guns. And we've already said, right, the gun in his safe, the gun that was used was a.22 Ruger. The searches included Ruger safety announcements, Ruger inside and out, Ruger safety blue book, Ruger safety announcements Again, apparently at 3:28am On May 12, Glenna received a text from her mother responding to the earlier message. At 4:48, Glenna's phone sent a text to her mother that said, love you. Sorry.

[Mike Gibson]

Those are going to get people's attention.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, they are, but Normally not at 4:48 in the morning. Unless you're an early riser. Yeah, most people don't stay up that late.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, if my phone goes off, I'm going to hear it.

[Mike Ferguson]

You don't put your phone like on silent at night.

[Mike Gibson]

No, because what if like one of my kids needs me? I want to be able to pick the phone up and be like, what do you need?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I have a, I, I think I have something where I'm on silent, but people, contacts that I have, if they call, it'll ring through.

[Mike Gibson]

I think there is something like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't want to like every email and message.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I don't hear that does somehow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay.

[Mike Gibson]

During sleeping hours.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because I would never sleep. It would just be a constant.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, barrage. But you know, it these texts. Right. Love you. Sorry. Okay, well, you could take that a couple of different ways. What are you sorry about that you didn't get back to me? Maybe that's true. As quickly as as you wanted to or knowing what we know was in the letters, Is it a little more than that?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, but would you think that right away if you saw this? I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not if you didn't have the context. Yeah, no, not if you didn't have the context. Nine seconds later, the phone accessed a web page titled Ruger New model single six single action revolvers. And then there was no further web activity or outgoing text after 4:55am on May 12th. So, I mean, I think if you're the police and you get this information, what are you making of it? And for me it's that, okay, maybe she didn't know a lot about this ruger. 22. And she was looking some information up, but she obviously was involved in this shooting.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I think you'd have to come away with that piece.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not like she was shot and then somehow used the phone to look up information on the gun she was shot with.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, this had to have happened before she was shot. And you would think before Marty was shot as well. In June 2015, Glenna's mother told the police that her last memory was three days before she was found. And that can happen.

[Mike Gibson]

It can.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know how common it is, but things like that do happen where people lose periods of time.

[Mike Gibson]

You stop that. It was a good memory.

[Mike Ferguson]

What?

[Mike Gibson]

The last time, the last memory you have, you hope it's a good memory.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, the one that was three days prior?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know why. It's not like 50 first dates. It's not like every day is going to be that memory or Groundhog Day.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay. Yeah, I got you.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're gonna have new memories moving forward.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. I'm just. I. I don't know. You. You get me sometimes, or you. You lose. I'm lost.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I mean, that's understandable because I'm

[Mike Ferguson]

not operating at this mental level. I can't stay with you.

[Mike Gibson]

They get it, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, we'll see. They'll let me know if they do or not.

[Mike Gibson]

At least somebody out there gets it.

[Mike Ferguson]

They probably will say they do because they're, you know, team Gibby. I understand exactly what Gibby's saying. Glenna's mother also said that that apology text that Glenna sent was apologizing for failing to, you know, follow through on some earlier plans and losing money at the casino. So we talked about it being almost like, maybe linked to the letters.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which all kind of appeared to be, I guess, suicide letters. I don't know how else to say it, but Glenna's mother said no, that's. You know, it was this. It wasn't anything to do with that. Glenna was interviewed by State Police in October 2015 with her mother present. She claimed she didn't recall writing the letters found in her home, but they sounded like things she had written in the past for her children's birthdays. She also said that if she had written anything to her ex husband, it would have been to kiss my ass. This is according to the Detroit News. Now, they left out the ass part. I'm filling that in, but okay.

[Mike Gibson]

Kiss my ass.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why would you tell the police that I don't know. Now, she did maintain that she would never kill Marty because, quote, he was all I had, and I'd be better off divorcing him and. And leaving him. Now, you could make that argument depending on life insurance. Right. Which we haven't talked about yet, but if there's a lot of life insurance, then maybe you're not better off divorcing, maybe not, because let's not forget, right, the only money she was bringing in was for taking care of him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that 3,000 some dollars to take care of him every month.

[Mike Ferguson]

So what happens in a divorce settlement? He doesn't have a lot of money coming in. It's not like she's going to get some huge alimony or anything like that.

[Mike Gibson]

And she's probably not going to be taking care of him at that point anymore.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. So she's not going to get that money. So I. You know, you got to kind of take that with a grain of salt. She said they also had plans for the future, like a Memorial Day vacation. Glenna expressed her wish that she had died so that they could be together. She was also questioned about her cell phone search history. She responded that she didn't look up any information on the gun, and if she was on her phone, she would have been playing games online. Okay.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So who did it? The killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Somebody had to do it.

[Mike Ferguson]

The killer grabbed her phone and looked up information about this gun. Possible. Yeah, maybe possible. The detective told her police couldn't identify any other possibilities for what could have happened. Glenda responded with, I'm thinking you already got me. Guilty, and I wouldn't have hurt him. In January 2016, new county prosecutor Robert Springstead announced his office was nearing the final review of the case. In an interview with the Grand Rapids Press, Marty's daughter Jessica revealed that she formed an opinion about what happened soon after her body or her father's body was found. And she found three suicide letters signed by Glenna. And I get that because that's the same kind of thinking that I had.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

When we were talking about the details of what was found.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, it did seem to me to be that either Glenna shot Marty and tried to end her life, which is why she wrote the letters, or she shot Marty and then made it seem as though an intruder had shot her, too. There was really, to me, only two variations.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Either she did did it this way, or she did it this way to throw people off.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. The problem with the second one is then why write the letters? There would to me, there would be no reason to write the letters.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I'm leaning, based on the evidence, more towards the. She tried to end her life but was unsuccessful. By May 2016, no arrests had been made. Marty side of the family was frustrated, and they wanted Glenna arrested. I don't think there's any doubt. Right. That they thought she was responsible. During the investigation, several people asked the police whether they had interviewed Marty's parrot. And I know we're talking about death, we're talking about, you know, possible murder here, but there's no way that that's not humorous. The parrot part.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I chuckled right when you said it,

[Mike Ferguson]

you know, and I. I get it. You know, if you're a police officer, if you're a detective and a family member calls up or they stop in and they say, have you interviewed Marty's parent parrot? I almost said parent, because that sounds more logical.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It'd be hard to keep a straight face, I would think.

[Mike Gibson]

I wonder if you hypnotized. If you hypnotize the parrot.

[Mike Ferguson]

So Marty had an African gray parrot named Bud who was said to be intelligent with a good memory, and some of them are just extremely intelligent. I've seen a lot of videos on YouTube. Some may be real, some may be AI I can't tell half the time.

[Mike Gibson]

You have that problem right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do. I do not like AI because some of the things that I think are really cool, I show my daughter, and she's like, no, that's not real.

[Mike Gibson]

It's not real.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then I'm disappointed because I thought it was really cool. Marty's ex wife, Christina Keller, took ownership of but after his death because she had him. During their marriage, she reported that Bud was repeated repeating things like, don't effing shoot in Marty's voice. Oh, so, you know, some parents can mimic.

[Mike Gibson]

They can.

[Mike Ferguson]

Christina took a video of the parrot saying things like, shut up, get your blank over here, and don't blanking. Shoot.

[Mike Gibson]

Effing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's okay. You know, where is the parrot getting this from? Either the parrot watches a lot of movies, or the parrot was a witness to what happened to Marty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, well, if you're the defense team, you're gonna really lean heavy on. They left the TV on all the time.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but if he really is kind of mimicking Marty's voice, then you would have to say. Right. The prosecution's gonna lean into that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, they should.

[Mike Ferguson]

The parrot's voice changed back and forth. It was said as it was. If He. As if he was imitating an argument between Marty and someone else. Gibbs, you and I have done a lot of cases.

[Mike Gibson]

We have.

[Mike Ferguson]

I, I've never heard of this ever. Now I've never had a parrot. I know. They're amazing birds. They can do a lot of things. Christina was alarmed, but she didn't tell anyone outside the family for months. And I kind of understand that because. How do you even bring that up?

[Mike Gibson]

It'd be a tough conversation to start, but I kind of think you should.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I, I get that you should, but how do you. Because, I mean, you could be laughed at, you could be wrong, and then you could be pointing at the. The finger at somebody who's potentially innocent.

[Mike Gibson]

True.

[Mike Ferguson]

The family sent the video to W o O D TV in the spring of 2016, which garnered international attention. And it was just three weeks later, on June 24, 2016, authorities announced that Glenna Durham had been charged with murder. Prosecutor Robert Springstead said police suspected Glenna early on, but there were things that needed to be cleared up before pursuing charges. Prosecutors argued that Glenna killed Marty in a botched murder suicide because of financial problems exacerbated by her gambling. And again, that's what I initially kind of thought based on the evidence. You know, to me, having seen nothing in the reporting about life insurance, it didn't seem like this was for, like, the gain of money. Right. She wasn't going to gain money from Marty's death. It was more like she had painted herself into a corner.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And things had gotten so bad that she was about ready to be exposed and Marty was going to find out, and she just didn't know what to do or she couldn't live with that is the way that it. It seemed to me. On July 19, 2017, Glenna Durham was found guilty of first degree murder and a felony firearm charge. She was sentenced to life in prison on August 28, 2017. So, I mean, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, this is a case where you have a talking parrot.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Who appears to have been a witness to a murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And ultimately, I think, is it goes a long way in her being charged because she's not charged until after Christina comes forward with this video. Right. Of the parrot.

[Mike Gibson]

Really hoping the parrot's name was Polly, but it wasn't.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, it was Bud, which to me is a better name.

[Mike Gibson]

I kind of like the Bud name, too. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I don't know why. While the video of the parrot was not directly used to secure a conviction, it was evident that the animal witnessed and remembered the death of his. His owner. And I think it definitely further cemented the family's kind of thoughts that Glenna was involved. So I, you know, it's. It's such a strange case. Not that a wife would kill her husband. I mean, we have done plenty of those. Not that it would be done for some financial reason. Now, normally it's financial gain.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

That we're talking about. In this case, it's more of financial ruin, that she doesn't want to be exposed, but there's no way around it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And so she's going to kill Marty, she's going to shoot her and kill herself, and then she's not going to have to deal with it, I guess is it was her thinking, but it seems like that's what it seems like. But, you know, to have this kind of talking parrot be a part of the case, any part, any type of part of this case is just fascinating. It is that, you know, it's. It's quite a while after the murder in this parrot is having a conversation between two people. One of them apparently sounds like Marty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I'm just blown away by that.

[Mike Gibson]

I wonder, you know, if the parrot has any ptsd. Yeah, I mean, probably.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, probably. That coupled with, like, the loss of his owner.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm sure they go hand in hand. But just a strange, fascinating case. But that's it for our episode on the Glenna Durham. You got anything else?

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.