B (2:29)

Oh, Bruno.

A (2:30)

Holly Court.

B (2:32)

What's going on, Court?

A (2:33)

And last but not least, Karen Kelly.

B (2:35)

Well, thanks, Kelly.

A (2:36)

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Yarrow or Jarrow.

B (2:43)

I think I'm going to go with the Girro.

A (2:46)

Okay, you're just going to go in a completely different direction. But you could be right.

B (2:51)

Normally I am not.

A (2:52)

Yeah, we just talked on our weekly patreon about the. The solving of two more of the Colonial Parkway murders we did. Which is amazing. My obsession with body cam videos and the fact that my wife is now a quasi CSI technician.

B (3:11)

Well, that blue light will do that.

A (3:14)

Yeah. So, you know, if you want to hear more about that, now's a great time to sign up for Patreon Just.

B (3:20)

Keep her away from my area down here with that.

A (3:22)

Why are you pointing to your crotch?

B (3:24)

I'm not. Oh. I'm just pointing to the. Like this, General.

A (3:27)

Oh, okay. Because she should be nowhere near that area with anything.

B (3:33)

I don't even know how to respond.

A (3:34)

Nobody should be that close to that area. We have an episode out right now on True Crime all the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the disappearance of Nancy Ink. And she disappeared while kayaking in Guatemala on a trip there. Officials over there believe that Nancy drowned, but her family has questioned accounts from witnesses who were present the day she went missing. So make sure you check that episode out. All right, buddy, Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

B (4:07)

I am.

A (4:07)

We're talking about Joe Glenowitz. On September 1, 2015, Officer Joe Glenowitz was found shot to death minutes after he called for backup during a pursuit of three suspects. Glenowitz was considered a hero, killed in the line of duty until investigators took a closer look at the crime scene, his phone records, and his personnel file.

B (4:33)

And I would be nervous if someone ever looked at my personnel files.

A (4:38)

You should be, because I wrote most of the stuff that's in your personnel file, so I know exactly what's in there. Joe Glenowitz was a veteran, a police officer, and a respected community member of Fox Lake, Illinois. Many people called him GI Joe.

B (4:55)

GI Joe.

A (4:56)

And, you know, if you're of a certain age, and I get it, GI Joes are still around today, but they held kind of a certain reverence for kids back in the day.

B (5:10)

Yeah, I played with some GI Joes.

A (5:12)

I'm sure you did. There were cartoons. There were. You know, they later then came out with movies. But, you know, calling someone GI Joe, you're basically saying this is like the all American hero.

B (5:24)

Sure you are.

A (5:25)

Joe was born on August 25, 1963, in Libertyville, Illinois. During high school, he spent two years at the Marmion Military Academy in the Chicago area. In 1981, he joined the Army. He went on to earn a bachelor's and master's degree from Kaplan University and served in the army reserves for 23 years. Have I ever told you the story about how I almost went to the Air Force Academy out of high school?

B (5:58)

You got pretty close, huh?

A (5:59)

I did, I did. But, you know, when it. There was two things. First, I don't like discipline, and I think that was going to be a big issue with any of the academies.

B (6:11)

I think so.

A (6:12)

But then secondly, you know, I was dating Someone at the time I decided to go to the school that she went to. We broke up before we ever even left high school.

B (6:22)

Yeah.

A (6:23)

So, you know, decision making. What are you going to do?

B (6:27)

There's a lesson right there. Right.

A (6:28)

But it all works out because when you look at those little micro transactions, I just always think, okay, if one little thing changes, I don't meet my wife.

B (6:40)

That's true.

A (6:41)

It's like the butterfly effect. So you can't really look at anything as a quote, unquote bad decision.

B (6:49)

No.

A (6:50)

Because it would have changed or altered your life.

B (6:53)

It all led you to her, which led you to your kids.

A (6:55)

Yeah.

B (6:56)

Which led you to work where you did, which led you to me.

A (6:58)

Oh.

B (6:59)

Which here we are.

A (7:01)

And then the world is now my oyster. Is that what you're saying? Because I am associated with you. In April 1985, Joe joined the Fox Lake Police Department. Besides the army, this agency was the only place he ever worked as an adult. He worked different assignments within the Police Department, including K9 officer, field training officer, and SWAT team. He was promoted to sergeant and later lieutenant. In 1986, Joe began helping the Fox Lake Police Explorer post 300, training and mentoring kids aged 14 to 21 to enter a career in law enforcement. By 1987, he was running the Explorer Post, and he received international attention for his work with the post. He also implemented regional training for youth and SWAT and sniper work.

B (7:55)

He's really trying to develop talent at an early age.

A (8:01)

Well, and maybe you're kind of seeing with all of these things why people referred to him as GI Joe. I mean, 23 years in the Army Reserves, a long career in law enforcement. This Fox Lake Police Explorer thing, he's doing a lot of stuff. Post member Devin Arbe told cnn he truly loved his job. He loved doing things for the Explorers, and his Explorers was a huge part of his life. On February 18, 1989, Joe married Melody Residar. They would be married for 26 years and have four sons. Joe planned to retire from the Fox Lake PD in August 2015, but he was asked to stay on for another month. Something that you and I probably will never experience. Nobody's ever asked us to stay longer than necessary. I don't think for anything. In my case, they actually asked me to leave and said, we no longer require your services.

B (9:09)

I keep hoping that you're going to ask me to stay longer.

A (9:14)

Longer than what? Like if the podcast in. Just keep coming over for dinner and we'll sit down here and talk on the microphones. Even though it's not going to go out.

B (9:25)

I think that would be awesome.

A (9:26)

Okay, well, that will be our plan. Joe Glenowitz died while on duty on September 1, 2015. At 6:52am Joe responded to an email sent the day before by Fox Lake village administrator and and Merritt. Repeating her request for an inventory of the Explorer Post's equipment, Joe wrote, I will hopefully be done by noon one at the latest. Joe drove to the Citgo Quick Mart days earlier. He wrote a $1,070.69 check to cover his monthly tab. Owner Dee Dee Patel said Joe stopped in every morning. Okay, I. I get it. You're out and about. You're probably going to be stopping in at convenience stores quite a bit.

B (10:18)

Yeah.

A (10:18)

Grabbing something to drink, a quick bite to eat, you know, a thousand dollars a month, those a hefty bill.

B (10:25)

I didn't know they allowed store credit like that.

A (10:28)

Well, I. I don't know that they would do that for everyone, but maybe they would do that for this guy, GI Joe. Right. He's a pillar of the community. Joe put two packs of cigarettes on his tap and then drove his squad car to the village's industrial park. At 7:31am he parked at the end of Honing Road, where a chain link gate prevents cars from driving through an abandoned concrete plant. Joe was familiar with this site because it was where he staged crime scenes for the explorers. The site had recently been purchased by the village and was a popular spot for vandals. At 7:45am Joe told dispatch, I'm going to be out at the old concrete plant checking on two male whites and a male black. According to the Daily Herald, The Fox Lake PD begins roll call at 7:45am meaning there were no officers patrolling the streets. When Joe radioed in dispatch asked if he needed a second unit. Joe said no. And at 7:52am Joe radioed in to report that he was pursuing the three suspects on foot. At 7:55, Joe radioed back and said the suspects took off toward the swamp. When asked if he wanted backup, he responded calmly, yeah, go ahead and start somebody. Around 8am, three backup officers in two cars arrived at different ends of the property. They didn't see Joe and couldn't reach him by radio or phone. They heard a muffled gunshot up the hill, but had to make their way through dense trees, which slowed them down. At 8:09am an officer radioed. We've got an officer down, an officer down, officer down. At the swamp, the officers found Joe dead from a fatal gunshot wound. I just want to, you know, kind of back up a minute and talk about this. I talked to you on Patreon about how, you know, I'm kind of addicted to these YouTube videos of body cam footage, you know, of how police deal with unruly people or situations and things like that. You know, let's face it, being a police officer, it's a very dangerous job. Extremely dangerous. In this case, he's not with a partner. You know, he's out. He radios in that he's chasing, you know, these suspects on foot. Okay. You want to talk about a dangerous situation, I would say that's one. You don't know what these guys have. Could they have guns? You know, we don't know.

B (13:12)

Kind of scary.

A (13:13)

I. I would think it would be. A lot of things would be scary, right? In the. In the line of duty, the forest was so dense that officers couldn't see where the killers were. It took two hours for police to establish a perimeter. Two miles in every direction. And, you know, let's face it, that's two hours is quite a bit of time. Could these individuals make it more than two miles in two hours? And I would say yeah.

B (13:43)

Yeah. Especially if they know the area well.

A (13:46)

I mean, how long does it take you to run a mile? If you could run a mile, flat out, no, not Jason Bourne style. Just, you know, rough estimate, 10 to 15 minutes. Yeah, I would say you could do it pretty easily. So easily, in half an hour, you could be at 2 miles or more away.

B (14:07)

Yeah, but even with this being swampy.

A (14:09)

And dense, maybe it takes you a little longer. Yeah, but still, two hours is a long time for a head start, I guess is what I was getting at. An hour and a half after the shooting, a deputy found Joe's gun in the grass about 30 inches from his head. A dog picked up a trail of gunpowder, but the dog's handler was overcome by the high heat and humidity. That day, Fox Lake schools went on a temporary lockdown, and over 400 local, state, and federal officers assisted with the manhunt for the three suspects. The deputy coroner and two dozen officers also required emergency medical treatment due to the heat. So now we have to factor in this tremendous heat. Maybe that does change the equation of how far these people could travel. But still, I think you could get more than two miles in less than two hours in most situations.

B (15:09)

But now you have two dozen trained individuals, officers that need hospitalization.

A (15:16)

Wow. All right. I think it just tells you the. The heat, the humidity, what was going on that day? Let's not forget what these guys and women carry their uniforms?

B (15:28)

Well, that's true. They're weighted down.

A (15:30)

Oh my gosh. Between the, the Kevlar, the whatever bulletproof thing they have, the uniform, the however many pounds of stuff that goes around their, their waist.

B (15:45)

Utility belt.

A (15:46)

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's some poundage for sure. But also one thing that jumped out at me was the fact that they found Joe's gun about 30 inches from his head. Now, I don't know what you make of that at first. Right. If he has his gun out of his holster and he shot, I would think all kinds of different scenarios could be possible. The gun could fall straight down, the bullet could turn him sideways, the gun falls out of his hands and actually travels a little bit. Probably a number of different scenarios, but I don't think 30 inches. You would, you know, look at that and say that's all that out of the ordinary.

B (16:36)

Yeah, it sounds like it's fairly close, you know.

A (16:40)

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B (19:30)

Yeah.

A (19:31)

I mean, that is a big deal for a fellow officer to be gunned down.

B (19:36)

There's a brotherhood code that goes into full effect.

A (19:40)

Well, they're not going to stop at anything. Right. To try to figure out who did it, the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force compiled surveillance footage from the area, including a clip that showed Joe driving past two white men and a black man shortly before his death. Investigators identified the suspects as Thomas Corso, Manuel Vargas, and Preston Shrewsbury. The three men had a strong alibi. They went to an ATM and then had breakfast at a restaurant, which was verified by ATM records, assigned credit card receipt, and a waitress who identified them in a photo lineup. All of them were clear of any involvement in Joe's debt. And we talk about alibis quite a bit.

B (20:28)

We do.

A (20:29)

And some are very flimsy. Right. I was at home by myself. Well, it's hard to really corroborate that. We've seen family members lie for people and say, yeah, they were home during the time that this happened, only to find out that later they lied. This is a fairly solid alibi. You know, ATM records, signed credit card receipt. You have the waitress who served them, who you would think has no bias at all identifying these three guys in a lineup.

B (21:07)

I mean, I think at that point, you are so thankful for ATMs and credit card receipts.

A (21:15)

Yeah. Because what would police initially think? This, you know, Joe had radioed in. I'm chasing two white males and a black male.

B (21:26)

Yeah.

A (21:26)

Well, then all of a sudden, there is surveillance footage showing that he Drove past two white males and a black male. I mean, those have to be the guys, right, that he was chasing, but they couldn't be. Vargas later told ABC 7 Chicago. It never crossed my mind this would ever happen in my life. I just went to get something to eat, get some money to pay a cell phone bill, and all hell broke loose. It was just a regular morning. That's all it was. On September 3, 2015, a woman named Kristen Kieffer was charged with filing a false police report after she lied about seeing the three suspects. She claimed that she pulled over in Volo, Illinois due to car travel. On September 2, she alleged that two men in a cornfield approached and tried to steal her car, but ran away. Her claim prompted a large scale, five hour long search in Volo and Lakemore. She admitted that she made up the story because she wanted attention from the family. She nannied for wanted attention. Okay, people want attention, right? A lot of people do. And sometimes people will do some strange things to get that attention. Yeah, but attention from the family that you're a nanny for, that seems strange. She later pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct and was sentenced to two years probation and community service, plus $20,000 in restitution.

B (23:00)

She did waste resources for at least.

A (23:03)

Five hours and they're wanting some of that money back. Joe's funeral was held on September 7. Hundreds of people attended to pay their respects. And that doesn't surprise me at all. Right. We've talked about the fact that this guy was pretty revered. I think he was pretty popular right, in the community. He was well thought of as a police officer, a public servant. His wife Melody said at a candlelight, vigilant, as quoted by cnn. Joe was my best friend in my world, my hero. He was my rock as much as I was his rock. Eight days after the shooting, coroner Thomas Rudd announced that he was leaning towards a homicide ruling, but he could not yet rule out suicide. And it was said in all the papers, Gibbs, that a lot of people had a really hard time accepting this. They didn't think there was any reason Joe would want to end his life. I'm sure they all thought this was a guy who was killed in the line of duty chasing these three guys. His wife Melody told Crimewatch daily at the time. Somebody that is going to kill themselves is not going to shoot themselves twice. The task force was also upset by Rudd's announcement that they hadn't ruled out suicide either. But they didn't want to air this theory without solid proof.

B (24:31)

I get that it's kind of a high profile case right now. So maybe until, you know, you just don't say.

A (24:37)

Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple of ways it could be done. One is that, you know, we just haven't made a ruling yet without really saying much about either one. The fatal shot entered Joe's body from above at a 40 degree angle between his bulletproof vest and collarbone. Investigators considered different theories about what happened. Joe's vest stopped the first gunshot to the abdomen, but it was possible he lunged at his attacker and was shot again. Another possibility was that the shooter reached over his shoulder from behind and killed him that way. Replicating Joe's custom vest and using his gun. The FBI lab in Quantico performed residue tests to determine the first shot was fired from about 3 to 6 inches away. Tests on the second shot turned up residue indicating the gun was fired when the muzzle was wedged between Joe's vest and his shirt.

B (25:41)

So, like point blank?

A (25:43)

Yeah, Very, very close. His death could be ruled undetermined because of the possibility that Joe wrestled with the killer for the gun and it went off. And all of that makes sense to me. Right? This homicide versus suicide debate. Okay. When you think about a shot being fired from 3 to 6 inches away and then a shot being fired up very close between his vest and his collarbone, I think both of those could happen in either situation.

B (26:20)

Sure.

A (26:21)

Right. You could turn a gun around, shoot yourself in the abdomen into your vest. You could also reach up and shoot right above your vest. But that could also happen in a very close quarter combat situation where a guy shoots you, it hits your vest, but you're able to lunge at him, the gun gets pressed up against you, and he fires it again. I could see both of those being possibilities.

B (26:52)

It's not like the FBI said, oh, the bullet was shot from four feet away.

A (26:58)

Yeah. Or 20ft away.

C (27:00)

Right.

A (27:00)

Or something that would make it impossible for one person to do that. Next, investigators turned to Joe's personnel file. Although he earned commendations, his record included serious allegations of public intoxication and sexual harassment. George Falinko, commander of the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force, told cnn. Let me put it this way. If I knew about that personnel file and I was a parent, I certainly wouldn't put my child in the Explorer program under his tutelage. Wow. And you wouldn't either, right? Sexual harassment. This is kind of flies in the face of the GI Joe perception.

B (27:47)

Yeah.

A (27:47)

This is the all American hero, the. The ideal police officer. Well, maybe not if he's been busted for public intoxication and has allegations of sexual harassment.

B (28:05)

But if it's that bad, why'd they even let him teach that or run that course, right?

A (28:10)

Well, I think that's a question we're gonna have to dive into. Joe's problems began as early as May 1988. He passed out in his idling truck with his foot on the pedal on the shoulder of Illinois Highway Route 49. The deputy who found him couldn't wake him. A detective arranged for Joe's truck to be towed. Joe couldn't remember where he left his truck and reported it stolen the next morning, but was then told it had been towed. Joe later told the detective who picked him up that he drank six beers and took several shots after playing volleyball.

B (28:48)

Well, it's those volleyball players you got to watch out for, man. They can get crazy sometimes.

A (28:52)

You know, I like to say that, you know, you would think a police officer would be the last person in the world who would drink and drive, but let's face it. You know, these people are. They're regular individuals.

B (29:07)

Sure.

A (29:07)

They are, just like us. They make mistakes. They do things they're not supposed to.

B (29:12)

Can be a stressful job.

A (29:13)

It happens. It's not right. You just kind of always think that because of the level of responsibility they have, they're held to a higher standard. Rightly or wrongly, they are.

B (29:27)

Sure. Sure, they are. And when you think about, you know, how they're portrayed in movies and TV and things like that, they all seem to have a common theme, that they always end up at a bar after a tough day, Having a couple drinks.

A (29:42)

Or more, and then you wonder how they get home. Yeah, right. Yeah, but that's. That's movies and TV, but it's also real life. In August 1988, Joe played volleyball and got drunk from a beer in a shop because, according to him, he hadn't drank in a while. He failed to report to work and was suspended for two days. In 1999 and 2000, Joe was warned about showing up late for work. In 2003, he was demoted from commander to sergeant because of unspecified problems in the communications division he oversaw. In 2003, a federal lawsuit against the village and police force Accused Joe of pressuring a female department employee under his command to perform oral sex on him five times in the year 2000. Okay, so we're getting into some really nasty stuff here. Yeah, obviously, there is a problem with drinking and also driving. In at least one case, he's habitually late. Well, why would somebody be habitually late for Work maybe if they had a drinking problem. I'm not saying that's the only reason, but it's one possible reason.

B (31:03)

Could be, I'm sure as this stuff is being leaked out, if Melody did not know, I'm sure at this point she's got to be pretty upset about it.

A (31:12)

Well, and then you have this last one which is the most egregious of all. Kind of pressuring someone who works for you or is under your command to perform oral sex on you 5 times 2000 is way before kind of the cancel culture began. But this is the exact reason why people get in trouble. You cannot do that. And I'm kind of reminded of the show that you, my wife and I all like on Apple, the network show, what's it called?

B (31:55)

The morning show.

A (31:55)

The morning show. I thought they did a really good job in that show of really kind of outlining the thought process behind pressuring.

B (32:10)

Yeah.

A (32:10)

Someone who is a subordinate, you know, you're not. It's not, it's not force, but it all. It becomes like that because of the fear of what's going to happen if I don't do this.

B (32:23)

Yeah. It's kind of applied.

A (32:25)

Yeah. Or implied.

B (32:27)

Or implied. Yeah.

A (32:28)

Yeah. But I thought they actually did a pretty good job in that show of. Of showing that.

B (32:33)

Yeah.

A (32:34)

But it turned out, Gibbs, that this employee also worked under Joe's supervision in the Explorer program. So again, here he is kind of mentoring or in charge of this mentoring program for all these young children. And he's doing a lot of stuff that he shouldn't be doing, some of which is criminal. This woman resigned from the Explorer Program and reported the alleged sexual misconduct. The suit alleged that the police chief told her that Joe admitted to the misconduct. The chief was recommending sexual addiction counseling for Joe and a 30 day suspension. And to me, that just shows you how these types of things were dealt with in the past.

B (33:24)

Back then. Yeah.

A (33:26)

Today that would be and should be immediate termination.

B (33:32)

Yeah.

A (33:33)

No tolerance, zero tolerance. But you know, you're talking in 2000 or whatever year it was right after 2000, sexual addiction counseling and a 30 day suspension. But the guy gets to keep his job and gets to keep his pension and all of that. And then we wonder why more women didn't come forward back then. Right. About these types of things. Because it wasn't going to be good for them and the person wasn't going to really get in trouble anyway. More harm would probably come to them.

B (34:09)

Sure.

A (34:10)

Reputationally they couldn't stay at the job, but that person Would get to. So what's the impetus to come forward if it's really not going to. To matter, for lack of a better term? And that's sad. It really is. And this is like in the 2000s. I mean, this. Imagine how much worse it was in the 90s, 80s, 70s. The further back you go, oh, the worse it would be, the worse it was. The harassment suit was dismissed in 2005 after the woman and her attorney missed deadlines to file discovery responses. She lost an appeal. In 2006, Joe was also suspended for telling a dispatcher he could put bullets in her chest, talking about places to dump a body, and bringing a gun into her workplace.

B (35:05)

So trying to intimidate.

A (35:07)

Yeah. But again, what happens to Joe? He's suspended. So basically, you know, what have they done? They've set a precedent. Right. You can do these horrible things and all that's going to happen to you is a suspension.

B (35:24)

Yeah.

A (35:25)

Now, you might not like that, but you'll be able to come back. You still got your job, you still have your pension, all of that. In 2009, anonymous members of the Fox Lake police department submitted a two page letter to mayor Cindy Irwin accusing Joe of misconduct, including sexually harassing and threatening a dispatcher visiting village establishments with women who were not his wife, being kicked out of establishments for being highly intoxicated, taking his family on vacations in his squad car, allowing Explorer post members to wear police garments, groping women's breasts at department Christmas parties, and getting a tattoo on duty using a free certificate donated to the department.

B (36:15)

Well, it sounds like there's several things he was doing wrong.

A (36:20)

Yeah. And to me, it's just. It's just a history of thinking that, well, I can basically do whatever I want because nothing really bad is going to happen to me.

B (36:33)

You got sexual harassment, you got theft. Really, when you take a company vehicle on vacation, using it.

A (36:43)

Well, I joked about your personnel file earlier, but you certainly didn't have anything like this. Right. None of us did. We would have been fired immediately.

B (36:56)

Yeah, you wouldn't have lasted at all.

A (36:58)

But all that happened around this letter was that it was filed in his personnel record and he just continued working. The investigators who were looking into Joe's personnel file after his death were surprised by the number of allegations. And I bet they were. They were probably thinking, how did this guy keep his job through all of this over the years? Detective Chris Covelli of the task force told cnn, it's unusual for somebody to be a lieutenant and have supervisory authority with a personnel file looking like this you think? Let alone just still having a job. Yeah, but to be a supervisor, which means he had to be promoted over.

B (37:45)

The years, I mean, normally the supervisor is the person you go to with a problem. So if you have somebody that's harassing you, well, you know how he is. So you're not going to go to him, because what's he gonna do, you know, if he was one harassing you, you're absolutely not going to him. But if somebody else in that department was harassing you and you knew how he operated, you're gonna never gonna report it.

A (38:11)

You're gonna think twice. Yeah, for sure. CNN obtained a document showing that one of the officers involved in the case described Joe as a golden child who must have had dirt on someone at the department to be able to stay there. And that is, you know, one option because either they didn't take any of it seriously, which is highly likely.

B (38:34)

Sure.

A (38:35)

Or somebody in a position of power couldn't do what they wanted to do, or else they would maybe be exposed because Joe had something on them. Joe managed to avoid serious repercussions until Ann Marin took over as village administrator in March of 2014. In 2015, she asked for an inventory of the Explorer Post because it was full of items such as helicopter helmets, gas masks, flak jackets, and other military surplus. Okay. I don't know why a bunch of kids need helicopter helmets or they're not going to be flying helicopters. The gas mask, maybe. I could understand that.

B (39:21)

Maybe for training, but seems excessive.

A (39:25)

The investigation took a turn when the task force subpoenaed Joe's bank records. Federal agents recovered over a thousand texts and Facebook messages Joe deleted shortly before his death.

B (39:38)

That's a lot of messages.

A (39:40)

Well, and how suspicious is it, right, that they just happened to be deleted shortly before he died? FBI agents had doubts that Joe was murdered within the first couple days of the investigation. His cell phone records showed he was at the site for almost 30 minutes before he radioed for help. The deleted messages showed that Joe was about to be in serious trouble due to misuse of Explorer funds and Village Administrator Ann Marin's investigation. The messages showed that he considered retiring as a way out. He messaged his son D.J. in May 2015 with complaints about Ann Merritt writing, she hates me. If she gets a hold of the old checking account, I'm pretty well fucked. And this was in an article by cnn. Obviously, they left the F word out.

B (40:38)

But, well, maybe you shouldn't be doing things you shouldn't be doing.

A (40:42)

Well, I think we say that A lot. Right. There are a ton of things that people shouldn't do. I mean, let's even take out Dahmer and, you know, mass murderers, serial killers, obviously they shouldn't be going around killing people, but people shouldn't be committing credit card fraud. They shouldn't do all these things, but they do it. Right. And then it's like, well, how do I get out of it? I'm about ready to get caught or they're closing in on me. And that's the situation that it kind of sounds like Joe was in around this time. DJ responded, hopefully she decides to get a couple of drinks in her and she gets a dui. Joe responded, she does, but not around here. And no one knows where. Trust me, I've thought through many scenarios from planting things to the Volo Bog. And this Volo Bog state natural area is four miles south of Fox Lake.

B (41:46)

Wow. So kind of a threat, really?

A (41:50)

I would say definitely. I mean, it's a little veiled, but planting things, the Volo bog, what can that mean? That he is going to do something to her and dump her body there? Yeah, because it's a swampy area where nobody will ever find it. And now it makes more sense, right, that he would want to delete these thousands of text messages and Facebook messages because they could be quite damning. What people don't really understand, a lot of people, is that, yeah, you delete stuff, but it doesn't mean it can't be retreated with the right technology, the right equipment. In June 2015, Joe sent a text to his wife saying that he used the Explorer account for a flight that cost $624.70. Melody's attorneys later issued a news release stating that Joe had been depositing his own money into the Explorer account. Another text to his son pointed to unidentified expenses of $1,600 and $777. Joe wrote, you are borrowing from that other account. When you get back, you'll have to start dumping money into that account or you'll be visiting me in jail. The 1600 and the 777 all came from there. Joe also wrote to his son, I'm sticking my neck out there with loaning you over $2,300 to fix your truck specifically and only to help accommodate your summer leave trip to. Ok. So I don't think there's any doubt, Gibbs. Right. When you look at these, it points to the fact that he was commingling this Explorer account and the funds in there with his own personal finances.

B (43:47)

Yeah. Which is A big no, no, it is.

A (43:50)

It absolutely is. And it also sounds like they were onto him. Right. This village administrator who was looking into him, she was onto him. Right before his death, he continued to his son by saying, so if called on the carpet, I can say, we give our Explorers and advisors loans from time to time if it's needed. And this is proof that it's being paid back. You get where I'm coming from. This village administrator hates me and the Explorer program. This situation right here would give her the means to crucify me if it were discovered. Compound this with, if I was selected for chief of Antioch Illinois, I would be leaving here and would have to turn this account over to someone else. And that's an interesting statement right there. You know, some people can get away with things as long as they're in control of it all.

B (44:50)

Sure.

A (44:51)

But the minute they lose control of it or someone else takes over, and you know that from the business we were in.

B (44:59)

Yeah.

A (45:00)

That's when some things are discovered.

B (45:03)

People go on vacation, things happen.

A (45:05)

That or they leave, someone new takes over and it's like, oh my gosh, look at all these mistakes that were being made that no one knew about because only one person did that for years and years and years.

B (45:18)

Exactly. I mean, if you think about a lot of the embezzlement cases out there, you find out that that person that embezzled never went on vacation or if they did, everything they did got locked up, shut down until they came back. You know, and it's only when somebody else thought they'd help that person out that they uncovered things and they're like, oh, wait, what's this? This is weird. This is strange.

A (45:44)

The day before he died, Joe texted his former police chief about Ann Marin, saying she has now demanded a complete inventory of Explorer Central and a financial report. Fml. That's not one that I've seen a lot, but I can deduce the meaning. I'm sure you can FF my life is what I'm assuming that means. Agents also found text indicating Joe was attempting to hire a hitman to kill Ann Merritt. In April 2015, Joe sent a text asking a woman to set up a meeting with a high ranking gang member to put a hit on the village manager. I mean, what is it with people in hiring hitmen? We see that a lot now. I get it. Joe, through his years in law enforcement would probably have more contacts than the average person. He might know some very dangerous people who, let's say, would be pretty happy if they, if he Owed them a favor and might be willing to do something for some money. And a favor to be given later on.

B (46:59)

Sure. It's just so risky.

A (47:01)

Yeah, I think the hiring of a hitman is always risky, because a lot of times what you see is there's always a middleman who is connecting the person who wants the hitman to the actual hitman. And oftentimes it's that middleman who ends up going to police. And that's what starts the whole undercover sting operation. After Joe died, investigators found small packages of cocaine in his desk. The drugs weren't linked to a specific case, raising the possibility that he sought to ruin Ann Marin's credibility. As mentioned in one of his texts, he referred to planning things. Okay, so he pulls this lady over, let's say, traffic stop, and he slips a bag of cocaine under the seat. Would he be the first police officer to do that or something like that? Probably not.

B (48:00)

I feel like this guy could end up being on that show Mayor of Kingstowne.

A (48:05)

Yeah, there's quite a bit of Mayor of Kingstowne type stuff here going on. But I also think it tells you how worried he was. Right. About being exposed. I mean, he's thinking about framing her. He's thinking about having her killed.

B (48:21)

He wants her out of there, because.

A (48:24)

I think he knows she's about ready to expose him. Ann Marin later told CNN she was shocked to hear what Joe wrote about her. They had always had pleasant conversations. She said. I was stunned, absolutely stunned. It's almost surreal. And I don't know who wouldn't be stunned to find out that someone with whom you thought you had a cordial relationship with was behind the scenes planning to either frame you or have you killed. It's kind of like these cases where a husband or wife finds out that their spouse has tried to hire an undercover agent playing a hitman to murder them. Yeah, and they have it on video. On November 4, 2015, the Lake County Major Crimes Task Force announced that Joe's death was a carefully staged suicide. For seven years, he had been embezzling tens of thousands of dollars from the Police Explorer program for personal use. Lake county worked with the coroner, the FBI, ATF, Homeland Security, Secret Service, in the U.S. marshals to create a case file of more than 50,000 pages outlining how and why Joe faked his murder. Seven years, 50,000 pages. In all those agencies, task force Commander Joe Falinko said at the press conference, there are no winners. Glenowitz committed the ultimate betrayal to the citizens he served and. And the entire Law enforcement community. The facts of his actions prove he behaved for years in a manner completely contrary to the image he portrayed. And I think it's a very well thought out, well said sentence. He was not GI Joe. He was not this all American, above board police officer. He was into all types of corrupt stuff. Court documents showed that Joe spent over $13,000 on coffee, restaurants and movies. And almost $10,000 on hormonal supplements and dating sites. $5,700 on a trip to Hawaii and over $15,000 to pay a student loan.

B (50:55)

You know, those hormonal supplements are not cheap.

A (51:00)

I don't know. I will take your word for that. But you know, that plus dating sites. I thought $13,000 on coffee, restaurants and movies. That's a lot of coffee. I love coffee.

B (51:13)

That is a lot of coffee.

A (51:14)

But that's a lot of coffee, A lot of restaurants, probably high dollar meals. Investigators believe that Joe spotted the three men randomly en route to end his life and that they would be the fall people for the staged murder. The staged crime scene was meticulously planned. Joe had extensive practice creating crime scenes as training exercises for the explorers. And we mentioned it earlier, but his phone data showed that Joe spent about 20 to 30 minutes at the industrial park before he radioed for help. Investigators believe he was in his car deleting messages from his cell phone during that time. After reporting that he was pursuing the suspects into the swamp, Joe pulled the safety off his pepper spray and sprayed it before dropping the can alongside a deer path he was using. He dropped his baton in the grass a few feet away. His glasses fell off at some point.

B (52:15)

Jo.

A (52:16)

He then took out his gun and shot at his police issued phone clipped to the lower right side of his bulletproof vest. The bullet passed through the phone and didn't penetrate his vest. But the impact left a 4x4 inch bruise under Joe's rib cage. He wedged the muzzle of his pistol under the upper left side of his bulletproof vest. The bullet missed his heart and went through the pulmonary artery and left lung and then bounced off the bulletproof vest protecting his back before lodging against his rib. Experts believe that Joe lived about 90 more seconds. He dropped his gun into the grass as if it was taken from him during a struggle. He walked five feet towards the swamp at the other end of the clearing, turned around and fell face first. So the one thing that I would say, Gibbs, is there was a. There was quite a bit of planning here. Now, the three people, that was kind of a spur of the moment thing. He just Saw these three guys and thought, oh, this will be even better if I radio this in.

B (53:30)

This is a bonus.

A (53:31)

Yeah. It'll just make everything, you know, that much more believable. And maybe he was going to radio something like that in anyway, but now he has an actual description of people he just saw. Yeah, but I just wonder, you know, whether or not he shot himself in a place that he knew was going to kill him, but would give him just a little bit of time to kind of drop the gun where he wanted it to drop, to walk a little bit further on, to really sell the scene. Yeah, right. Because he can't really put the gun up to his temple and shoot himself. That would be too obvious. It would make the police believe that it was a suicide.

B (54:19)

And too instant.

A (54:20)

Yeah, it would be very instant. Right. He wouldn't have a chance to do anything after the fact. The task force also revealed that their investigation indicated at least two others were involved in criminal activity, but the inquiry was ongoing. The day of the press conference, one of three men who were initially considered suspects spoke to ABC 7. Thomas Corso said, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't work. I've been living in constant fear. And we talked about these guys earlier. Right. If it were not for the restaurant receipt and the witness statements, he might have been framed for murder as well as these two other guys.

B (55:04)

Yeah, absolutely. Because they were going to go off of this decorated officer. Last statements.

A (55:11)

Yeah. Most likely, Corso blamed Glenowitz for what he went through, saying, I'd be in jail right now. He tried to pin it on us, and I think it's a very accurate statement. After the press conference, the Chicago Sun Times reported that Joe may have arranged a sham marriage between his mistress and his son DJ to get thousands of dollars in extra benefits from the army. DJ and Katherine Grams were married in July 2013. A month later, they reported living apart and were divorced by December 2014. When Catherine lived in Ingleside, which is near Fox Lake, a neighbor who asked to remain anonymous said that Joe visited her home while almost every afternoon. He said, I knew what the guy was doing there. Which everyone suspected anyway. He just comes in the middle of the day, goes in for an hour, leaves, put two and two together.

B (56:10)

Yeah, not too difficult, huh?

A (56:11)

No, I mean, that's a booty call. I don't know if the kids still call it that, but.

B (56:20)

Probably not.

A (56:21)

Probably not. Speaking to the Daily Herald in late November, Task force Commander George Falenko said they developed a hypothesis about what was Going through Joe's mind in his final days, he said there was some vanity involved. He wanted it to appear that it was a valiant struggle that he went down fighting. Joe would have wanted people to believe he could have handled one or two attackers, but he couldn't overpower three people. He left a trail of breadcrumbs that he thought would lead to a homicide conclusion. I think he expected a hero's funeral, and that's exactly what he got. You're a hero beloved by the community, and you are now cornered into a spot where there's no way out. We think he thought, I'll go out a hero, knowing in his mind the village will take over the explorers and do some audits. But dying a hero in the line of duty will outweigh the explorer issue in the public eye. He perceived this whole thing that if he died in the line of duty, he could create this entire facade of a huge struggle so all his struggles would be forgiven. He would be looked back on as this great police officer who died in the line of duty.

B (57:41)

Yeah, we know he did some bad things, but he died in the line of duty. So, you know, let's. Let's hear it for him, you know?

A (57:48)

Well, I mean, let's face it. Police officers who die in the line of duty, you know, there is a. A certain reverence for them.

B (57:58)

Right.

A (57:59)

They made the ultimate sacrifice. It's like people who died in, in the military.

B (58:04)

Yeah.

A (58:06)

So maybe he thought, yeah, they're going to find out what I did, but maybe they'll just cover it up. They don't want to sully my name because I died a hero.

B (58:16)

Yeah, they're going to make sure I go out on a high note.

A (58:19)

Falinko faced criticism for taking two months to solve the case. He explained that the task force was focused on doing things correctly and they wanted proof to support the suicide theory. He said, you walk in with one thing, your integrity, and that's what you have when you leave. No police officer wants to be perceived as a bad cop among his peers. And Glenowitz was very proud of the fact and liked being a police officer. He liked it that the public perceived him as a good police officer. So him being exposed would be devastating. When faced with the decision to have that integrity ruined or to die as a hero, in his mind, what choice did he have?

B (59:04)

That's a good point. His ego wanted him to die as a hero.

A (59:08)

Yeah, you say it that way. You could also say it. His ego wouldn't allow for him to be exposed and disgraced on January 27, 2016, Joe's wife, Melody, was indicted on four counts of disbursing charitable funds without authority and for personal benefit and two counts of money laundering. Joe earned $96,000 a year as a police lieutenant, but authorities believe he and his wife lived a lavish lifestyle financed by the Explorer's post. His social media was full of travel photos. On February 18, 2022, Melody Glenowitz pleaded guilty to one felony count of deceptive practices. Her trial was set to start the following week. Prosecutors said they would argue for a sentence of felony probation. Her attorneys planned to ask for second chance probation. If she completed the requirements, the case would be dismissed. Ten other charges were dropped with her plea. On April 12, 2022, Melody was sentenced to two years probation. During the hearing, Melody told the judge she didn't know the extent of her husband's use of the money from the Explorers program and and said she paid money back when she learned what happened. She said, I never took a cent from the Explorers Fund, no matter what has been reported. She also noted that she's been punished for what her husband did, and she's unable to find a job because of her name. In April 2025, the village of Fox Lake agreed to a pension settlement for Melody. The news release didn't specify the monetary value of the settlement, but the Daily Herald reported that it was almost a million dollars.

B (61:00)

Wow. Well, that'd give her some financial relief.

A (61:04)

Yeah. And, you know, I just wonder, Gibbs, it didn't really talk about life insurance, but I wonder if that was a part of this whole staging a homicide versus suicide, because obviously, we know how those are treated when it comes to.

B (61:23)

Life insurance and to be shot in the line of duty. Maybe they got paid an extra benefit.

A (61:31)

Yeah, I think when it comes to life insurance, a lot of times that would probably be the case. Fox Lake Mayor Donnie Schmidt said in the release, this has been a difficult chapter for our village. While we cannot change the past, we. We can choose a path forward that brings closure and represents a prudent financial decision for the village. This agreement does just that, and we're ready to focus on the continued growth and well being of our community. So as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I mean, Joe Glenowitz was a respected member of the community of Fox Lake. After the news of his crimes came out, residents felt betrayed by this man who held a position of authority, especially because many of them trusted him with their children. In addition to financial crimes, his personnel file also contained reports of harassment that were largely unknown and we talked about those quite a bit. I was kind of appalled at the way some of those were handled.

B (62:39)

Sure.

A (62:40)

The consequences to him seemed very minimal. Right. Compared to what he was accused of doing. And I do think that being allowed to get away with things like that, you are sending a message to people. What's that message? I can pretty much do what I want because even when I'm caught, there's very little that happens to me.

B (63:09)

Yeah, just a slap on her wrist.

A (63:11)

I mean, we've talked about people who have killed someone and gotten out in six months, a year where they've committed very violent sexual assaults and gotten six months. What are you saying to that person who already has a proclivity of doing these things? Hey, take your chances of doing what you want. Because if you're caught again, the punishment is probably not going to be that severe.

B (63:43)

We're really not going to do much to you. So, you know, and I think it's.

A (63:47)

Just such a horrible precedent to set.

B (63:49)

It really is.

A (63:50)

You know, for me, when you think about the punishment for breaking the law, what is that punishment? I think for one thing, it's a deterrent for people not to do it again. For sure.

B (64:04)

That's what it should be.

A (64:05)

Right. You're going to. You're going to pay for what you did. But also, when you get out, don't do it again because you don't want to come back in and do another stretch of how many years. But if it's not enough of a deterrent, then they just go out and they do it again.

B (64:22)

Why wouldn't they?

A (64:23)

And then you think about all these people that lived in this place. Right. A lot of them probably thought this guy was awesome. He's a great policeman. He's spending time with our kids in this Explorers program.

B (64:40)

What a guy.

A (64:41)

Yeah. Only for all of this stuff to come out later. And they're thinking, oh, my gosh, we left our kids with this dude and here's all the stuff he was into.

B (64:51)

Just goes to show you, you just never know.

A (64:53)

No, you really don't. Like I've always said people show you what they want you to see.

B (65:01)

Right.

A (65:02)

And I think that's human nature. People put forward a face or a facade of what they want everyone to see. However, how they want everyone to think of them. While behind closed doors, some people are doing some really shady stuff.

B (65:21)

That's right. Pull that curtain back, you're going to be surprised.

A (65:24)

The problem is the curtain doesn't always get pulled back.

B (65:27)

Right.

A (65:28)

Until it's too late. If it ever does.

B (65:31)

If it ever does.

A (65:32)

But that's it for our episode on Joe Glenowitz. Kind of a. A different type of story for us, but for me, very interesting.

B (65:41)

I thought so.

A (65:42)

We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

B (65:44)

Let's hear it.

C (65:45)

Hey, Mikey Gibbe, this is David Taylor calling from El Paso, Texas, and I just wanted to give you a call about something. I had to chuckle since it's a Catherine Knight podcast. So I got. And you broke for a advertisement, which was right after Catherine Knight plated the guy's butt for dinner. And it was a thrive market advertisement. You know, high protein, you know, all the good, healthy stuff to eat for dinner. Well, I thought that was kind of funny after Catherine Knight threw his butt up for dinner. But anyway, keep your own time kicking, and maybe when I get to your current podcast with voicemails, I might hear this, but never know. Thanks and have a great day.

A (66:31)

Well, you definitely will whenever that is. So obviously that's probably bad editing on my part of picking, but what a lot of people probably don't know is that, you know, the advertisements are recorded ahead of time. Yeah. And then when the episode is put out, there's just spots for where advertisements will go. But you don't always know what's going to go in each spot. Now, right after the but talk is probably not a great point to put one of those spots. But there's no way I could have known that it was going to be anything related to food.

B (67:12)

Did you just say the butt talk or the buttocks?

A (67:15)

No, I said butt talk. Actual talk, as in but I get what you're saying, and that's pretty clever. Yeah, it's one of the. The more clever things you've said in a while. I'm good every now, and I appreciate it, but we also appreciate the voicemail. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Sa.