Jonathan Scott Graham

Summary

True Crime All The Time

Episode 429: Jonathan Scott Graham

Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson
Date: April 7, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson (aka Gibby) dive into the chilling true crime story of Jonathan Scott Graham—a peeping Tom whose obsessive voyeurism escalated to murder and rape. The hosts trace the 1986 murder of Gary Larson and the attack on his fiancée and reveal how a seemingly minor peeping case cracked a cold case nearly 20 years later. The episode explores not just the details of the crime, but also the evolution of criminal behavior, flaws in forensic investigation, and profound effects on the victim and her loved ones.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Introduction and Background

• The Crime: On August 16, 1986, in Edmond, Oklahoma, Gary Larson, age 27, was stabbed to death in his home after investigating a disturbance. His fiancée was then bound and raped by the same intruder.
• The case remained unsolved for nearly two decades.
• Initial Investigation: Early suspicion included people close to the couple, but no solid leads or motives surfaced for years.

"Anytime you have a pretty cold case...the way that a cold case gets solved is always very fascinating.” (Mike Ferguson, 04:48)

2. Victims and Impact

• Gary Larson: Outgoing CPA described by friends as kind and down-to-earth. His sister Diane recounted their close bond.
• Unpublished fiancée (survivor): Experienced unimaginable trauma, yet demonstrated resilience and empathy, worrying more for Gary’s family than herself.

"She was so good to us when she was so hurt...She was trying to comfort us. She was really very special." (Gary’s sister Diane Clary recalling the fiancée, 19:04)

3. Crime Scene Details

• Attack details: The intruder, barefoot and in his underwear and gloves, stabbed Gary 24 times and raped his fiancée at knifepoint for three hours, leaving a trail of bare bloody footprints.
• Entry Method: Entered through a cut window screen, likely after casing the house from behind cover. Multiple luminol-aided discoveries aided investigation.

"There was the outline of a bloody, bare footprint, which investigators thought was unusual." (Mike Ferguson, 14:02)

4. Peeping Tom and Escalating Sexual Predation

• The suspect was believed to be a local voyeur whose behavior escalated over time.
• Strong suspect profile: White male in early 20s, familiar with the neighborhood, possibly living at home—indicative of someone with serious issues engaging in increasingly bold sexual crimes.
• FBI Profile: Reinforced sexual frustration and misogyny, short temper, and likelihood of further offenses.

“He possesses tendencies indicative of a serial killer, and authorities feared he would strike again.” (Mike Ferguson, 30:38)

5. False Arrest and the Risks of Eyewitness Misidentification

• John Brent Johnson was wrongfully charged and identified by the fiancée amid controversy regarding the suggestive police lineup methods, but later exonerated via DNA and footprint evidence.

"He was facing death...and a murder conviction...But it's a scary thought that someone could be charged and even convicted for murder and not have committed the murder." (Mike Ferguson, 40:54)

6. Case Goes Cold—Until Another Peeping Incident (2004)

• Breakthrough: In 2004, Detective Scott Day caught Jonathan Scott Graham, age 38, as a Peeping Tom near the old crime scene, dressed in black and barefoot.

“He was barefoot…dressed all in black lying on the ground…The man was soon identified as 38-year-old Jonathan Scott Graham.” (Mike Ferguson, 46:50)

• Evidence: Graham’s computer was full of voyeuristic and child pornography. His history included previous arrests for peeping, carrying weapons, and being found with an ominous collection of burglary and assault tools.

7. Forensic Evidence Finally Links Graham

• Footprint Match: The Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation confirmed Graham’s footprint matched the 1986 crime scene.
• DNA confirmation: Late May brought conclusive DNA links to the assault.
• Legal Hurdles: Despite the evidence, prosecutors couldn’t charge Graham for the rape due to statute of limitations. Eventually, via plea deal, he pled guilty to murder, rape, and burglary (the latter two included in the plea for a comprehensive sentence).

"He was rearrested on felony peeping tom charges...He was held without bond." (Mike Ferguson, 53:00)

8. Graham’s Confession

• Graham confessed to randomly selecting the victim after seeing her undressed through a bathroom window. He returned to the house with a knife intending to rape her, unexpectedly encountered Gary, and killed him in a panic.
• Motive: He described enjoying the feeling of control during his crimes.

"Because that's what I came for...control. Doing whatever I want to do." (Graham, paraphrased, 60:01)

• The hosts discuss the well-documented progression from voyeurism to physical sexual crimes and the likelihood Graham committed other undetected crimes.

9. Aftermath and Reflections

• Victims’ Strength: The hosts praise Gary’s fiancée’s courage and resilience and highlight the complexity of victim misidentification.
• Justice: Graham pled guilty in 2005, receiving life sentences without parole.
• Ongoing Mystery: As of 2025, no other crimes have been definitively linked to Graham, but the hosts doubt the 1986 assault was his only violent offense.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Footprint:
  “I don’t imagine a lot of burglars kind of going in barefoot.” (Mike Ferguson, 14:03)
• On Control as Motive:
  "Because that's what I came for... Control. Doing whatever I want to do." (Jonathan Graham, paraphrased confession, 60:01)
• On the Survivor’s Strength:
  “She was so good to us when she was so hurt... trying to comfort us. She was just crushed.” (Diane Clary, 19:04)
• On Misidentification/Justice:
  "But it's a scary thought that someone could be charged and even convicted for murder and not have committed the murder." (Mike Ferguson, 40:54)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 05:51 – Case synopsis & introduction of Gary Larson and fiancée
• 09:39 – Attack details: Intruder seen in briefs and gloves; start of the ordeal
• 12:31 – Detective Scott Day arrives, crime scene details
• 14:28 – Luminol reveals footprints and entry method
• 17:27 – Peeping Tom theory and stalking discussed
• 19:04 – Sister Diane Clary’s recollection of fiancée's compassion
• 30:34 – FBI profile analysis
• 34:30 – John Brent Johnson wrongly arrested; case context
• 40:54 – Exoneration of Johnson via DNA and footprint tests
• 46:50 – 2004: Graham caught as a peeping Tom, the major break
• 53:00 – Computer evidence; Graham held without bond
• 54:11 – Statute of limitations prevents rape charge
• 58:08 – Graham's confession; his process and the chilling specificity
• 63:53 – Current (2025) status: Graham still not linked to other crimes

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Tone and Style

The hosts approach the subject with empathy for the victims and survivors while using moments of humor and levity to break the tension—a hallmark of their style. They avoid sensationalism but refuse to spare the distressing details that underline the horror of these crimes. Their commentary is honest, sometimes self-deprecating, and always focused on the gravity of the violence discussed.

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Conclusion

This episode is a harrowing deep-dive into one of Edmond, Oklahoma’s most disturbing crimes and a stark look at how peeping and voyeurism can escalate to unimaginable violence. It serves as both a remembrance of Gary Larson and a salute to his fiancée’s strength, as well as a cautionary tale about the risks of misidentification in criminal justice. The hosts leave listeners both sobered and deeply aware of the importance of perseverance in solving cold cases.

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For more case breakdowns and episodes, follow True Crime All The Time.

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[Mike Gibson]

Sam.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 429 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey. I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great. Yeah, we talked about it on Patreon, but my wife is on her spring break. She is, so she's down in Florida with her mom. Every day I get a picture of the drink of the day, so seems like she's having a good time.

[Mike Gibson]

What about the other pictures she's sending?

[Mike Ferguson]

Just those.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just those.

[Mike Gibson]

Just checking.

[Mike Ferguson]

You trying. You're trying to. To get me to admit something that's not happening.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Brad. Oh, Shafen.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, hey. Chafing.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that's pretty cool. Audrey Fetzer.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Audrey?

[Mike Ferguson]

Tats and cats.

[Mike Gibson]

I gotta love some tats and cats.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kelly. Murphy.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Murphy?

[Mike Ferguson]

Jace Thornock.

[Mike Gibson]

Thanks, Thornock.

[Mike Ferguson]

Erica C. C. Yeah. Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Colleen F. A F. Mary mc.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on?

[Mike Ferguson]

Mc Lonnie Davis.

[Mike Gibson]

Thanks, Lonnie.

[Mike Ferguson]

Brenda.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, good old Brenda.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Chad o'. Neill.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, never last, Chad.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, never last. And then we go back into the vault. This week we selected Jody Searle.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, thanks, Jody.

[Mike Ferguson]

So appreciate the new Patreon support, the continued support. We also had a great paypal donation from Gen Man Gentry.

[Mike Gibson]

Thank you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, thank you very much. So, Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime all the time unsolved. We're actually headed to Scotland.

[Mike Gibson]

Your hometown.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, my hometown. It is a country, but it is where my ancestors are from. But we're talking about this Scottish banker named Alistair Wilson. He was gunned down outside his front door. And you know, there's a lot of mysterious things about the case, so check it out.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's a good one. Hey, don't forget CrimeCon coming up in September. Yep, that time right there.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you're going, just use our promo code, tcat, tcattcrimecon.com and come hang out with us. Yeah, hang out with us. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Jonathan Scott Graham. In the early morning hours of August 16, 1986, an intruder entered the home of 27 year old Gary Larson and stabbed him to death before raping Gary's fiance. The case was unsolved for almost 20 years until a peeping Tom was arrested in 2004 and authorities noticed similarities to the suspect in the cold case. And these are very interesting types of cases. You know, anytime that you have a pretty cold case and obviously 20 years is cold, it is, as you and I do, a lot of those on unsolved. But the way that a cold case is solved is always very fascinating because, you know, it's not like, you know, they solved it within a week. Right. They saw somebody on video, they went to talk to them, they put everything together. The person confessed. This is 20 years later catching somebody doing something similar and noticing that there were similarities. To me, that. That's always amazing.

[Mike Gibson]

It is. Especially knowing most likely the original investigators are probably not even part of the case.

[Mike Ferguson]

May not be at that point.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

20 years is a long time.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Gary Dell Larson was born in 1958 and grew up in Muskegoe, Oklahoma. Sources didn't provide a lot of information about his life, but his sister Diane was interviewed for the show Solved and said that she was 12 years older than Gary and loved being his big sister. Oklahoma.

[Mike Gibson]

Gotta love Oklahoma.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why do I have to love Oklahoma?

[Mike Gibson]

Well, outside the fact that you did the play Oklahoma.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, it's just, it's a.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a nice statement.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Surrey with the Fringe on top.

[Mike Gibson]

That's you.

[Mike Ferguson]

12 years, though, is a pretty big gap. It is.

[Mike Gibson]

It's almost like a second mom.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay, I'll go with you on that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I hate to disagree with you anymore because people just give me crap for it. No, but you know, they always say no. You're right.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you have a sister who's 12 years older than you, she's going to be taking care of you all the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Telling you what to do.

[Mike Ferguson]

Gary graduated from college and became a cpa. His friends described him as an outgoing, bright young man who was kind and down to earth.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind and down to earth. I like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Those are good qualities.

[Mike Gibson]

They are.

[Mike Ferguson]

At the time of his death, he was living in Edmond, Oklahoma, and was engaged to a woman whose name was not published in sources. So, obviously, we're going to be calling this woman his fiance because we don't know her name.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On the night of August 15, 1986, Gary and his fiance went to a performance at the Lyric Theater in nearby Oklahoma City. They went to a restaurant and a bar before heading back to Gary's house. His fiance planned to spend the night with him. So they got ready for bed, and they left the bedroom window open because it was a warm night. They had just fallen asleep when shortly after midnight on August 16, they heard a noise in the house. Gary went to investigate, but found nothing. As his fiance was drifting off to sleep, Gary got up to check things out one more time.

[Mike Gibson]

Don't we all do that? When you hear something, you're like, what the heck is that?

[Mike Ferguson]

It happens to me all the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it is definitely scary to be woken up by a sound that you don't know. Hey, you know, is this coming from inside the house? Is it, you know, the dogs making noise?

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Is it something outside? But for me, it's really hard to just go back to sleep. Like, I have got to go check it out, because if not, I'm gonna just sit there and lay there and think about it.

[Mike Gibson]

Problem with you is that you go full out Rambo. I'm gonna check this out and, you know, take no prisoners.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I put the black paint under my eyes, everything, just in case.

[Mike Gibson]

I've been down here where all sudden, you think you hear something upstairs, and I'm like, what are you transferring into you transforming into.

[Mike Ferguson]

I grab a weapon, do a roll, a barrel roll.

[Mike Gibson]

Which is very funny because sometimes it takes you three or four times before you actually get the barrel roll down.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not as spry as I used to be.

[Mike Gibson]

And then you like, hey, can you give me a hand? Get back up. I'm like, okay, this is real threatening.

[Mike Ferguson]

So Gary gets up to check things out. His fiance heard a gasp and a groan of pain. When she called out for Gary, he didn't answer. She got up to check on him and saw a stranger across the hall. She later said he was wearing only a pair of men's briefs and gloves, and he was armed with a knife. Okay, first of all, very scary to hear a Sound. We just talked about that. Even more scary, and much more scary to see a stranger inside your home. And then I'll take it a step further and say, even scarier and a little weird, too, for this stranger to be only wearing briefs and gloves.

[Mike Gibson]

I think it's a little freaky, you know?

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, that's. That's how you sometimes come into my house, and I'm like, how did you even get from your truck to the house?

[Mike Gibson]

I wait till I get to the garage door area, Then I drop my pants.

[Mike Ferguson]

Huh. And then knock on the door. Knock on the door just so you can see my face when I open.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, he's also armed with the knife, so no doubt a very scary situation.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to the Daily Oklahoman, she hid in the bedroom. A few minutes later, she went into the adjoining bathroom, which had a second door that opened into the hallway. She peeked into the hall. That's when the stranger saw her and chased her through the bathroom into the bedroom. He tackled her on the bed, and a struggle ensued. The man bound her and raped her for three hours at knife point.

[Mike Gibson]

Brutal. Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. These are hard things to talk about because in your mind, you can't help but try to imagine. You don't want to, but you're imagining what this woman went through. And I think you can also kind of see why sources don't name her. The man didn't speak much, but she remembered him saying, time is of the essence. While deciding what to do with her, Gary's fiance focused on talking to the man and trying to reason with him so he wouldn't kill her.

[Mike Gibson]

Strange thing to say, right? Time is of the essence.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It's a very lawyerly type business term.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Something you'd see in a contract, but not for someone to say, why are.

[Mike Ferguson]

They doing a terrible act, committing a violent sexual crime. But the one thing I will say is, and you do hear this quite often, I think this is a smart tactic on her part. Right. Trying to talk to this person.

[Mike Gibson]

Humanizing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You've often heard people talk about that. Right. How can you get this person to see you as a human being? Because that might be your best chance to escape the situation. Now, what's already happened to her is horrible.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure it is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Should never happen. But she's still in a fight for her life. When everything was over, the man tied her with rope and left her in the bedroom closet. She heard him rummaging through the house before he left. She managed to escape and discovered Gary's body in the dining room. She then called the police. So obviously what happened to Gary was horrible because he lost his life. But what happened to this woman was, you know, terrible as well. I mean, she went through a very vicious, a very long lasting sexual attack and then had to find her fiance dead.

[Mike Gibson]

Very traumatic.

[Mike Ferguson]

Detective Scott Day, then a patrol officer, was the first one to arrive at the home. He found Gary's fiance at the front door with blood on her body. She said, he's dead. I know he's dead. Is he dead? Gary's body was found in the corner of the dining room. There were two massive stab wounds to his chest and numerous other stab wounds on his abdomen. In total. Gary was stabbed 24 times.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. How do you recover from 24 stabs?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, and I think a lot of times most people wouldn't, especially when two of those are directly to the chest, maybe even to the heart. But I do think in a lot of cases, you know, obviously the fiance is going to be looked at. And here's a situation where the fiance was actually inside. The home is covered with blood. They're going to have to look at her, try to figure out if she could have possibly been involved in it. There was a blood stain on the wall above Gary and a large dent about the size of his body, indicating he crashed into the wall before he collapsed.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm sure he did. Or he got slammed into the wall before he collapsed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, one or the other. On the floor next to his body was the outline of a bloody, bare footprint, which investigators thought was unusual, and I'm sure they did. If they're thinking this is not Gary's or his fiance.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because to me, I don't imagine a lot of burglars kind of going in barefoot.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, but this one decided to drop his pants, take his pants off, and he was just in his briefs, so maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

And gloves.

[Mike Gibson]

And gloves. So maybe he took off his socks and shoes with his pants and his shirt and said, okay, I'm gonna go in.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just with, like, this tighty whities only.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

The police decided to use luminol in the house, which at the time was relatively new. The luminal revealed another bare footprint on the carpet and a trail of footprints leading to the main bedroom. There was evidence of a struggle in the bedroom and blood stains on the sheets, most likely transfer stains from the perpetrator. Authorities also found a bloody footprint in the bathroom and removed the tile to store his evidence. And the footprints didn't match Gary or his fiance, which confirmed they belonged to the killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Good piece of evidence.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, great piece of evidence. Now you got to find somebody to match it up to.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's the hard part. Investigators found a cut window screen outside the house, which showed the killer's point of entry. And I don't know about you, Gibbs, but I feel like we've been talking about cut window screens in a lot of the episodes that we do lately. We have, which is a scary thing. Now, I know in certain parts of the country, maybe certain times of the year or just in certain decades, it's more likely than not that some people are going to leave their windows open.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure. People love fresh air.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's great. The problem is, it's also a pretty easy entry point. It really is for someone who's looking to do something bad. Gary's house had a small wall extending from it with bushes that were higher than the primary bedroom window. Investigators found impressions in the dirt under the window, suggesting someone was there for an extended period of time, most likely watching the house.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Something else that, to me, is a very scary thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Definitely creepy.

[Mike Ferguson]

The thought that someone is kind of just camped out, casing you, casing your house.

[Mike Gibson]

Stalking.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, stalking. That's a good word. Robbery was ruled out as a motive because nothing was taken from the house. The suspect was believed to be a Peeping Tom who was escalating his crimes, and Gary was likely an obstacle in the way of a sexually motivated crime. So if we kind of take everything we know so far, right, this is a person who is thought to have been kind of watching the house, maybe a Peeping Tom. We don't know for how long.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

This could have gone on for X number of nights. I'm sure he had seen Gary's fiance at some point, maybe developed a fixation with her or just decided that she was going to be his next target.

[Mike Gibson]

So either random or stakeout?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it could have been random. I. I lean more towards stakeout just because of this. This ledge thing. And, and the. The impressions that they found in the dirt, which they. They thought meant somebody had been kind of there for an extended period of time. Officers canvassed the neighborhood, but no one saw or heard anything unusual, despite the fact that the bedroom window was open and Gary's fiance screamed for help during the attack.

[Mike Gibson]

I know sometimes it seems unbelievable that no one would hear that, but you think about that time at night, most people are asleep.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes.

[Mike Gibson]

And I know you're a heavy sleeper.

[Mike Ferguson]

Very, very heavy. And we also. You use, like, a big fan, right? As kind of A white noise, slash, just, you know, I can't sleep in silence. So that's another thing that kind of would probably prohibit me hearing something outside of my own home.

[Mike Gibson]

It's going to drown out those. Those outside noises.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And maybe not everybody else had their windows open.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that would make it maybe a little tougher. And. And we don't know the layout of the neighborhood. We don't know how close together the houses were. But this is not the same type of situation. Like, you know the. The Kitty Genovese story.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, the one where a bunch of people heard it, some people saw it, they just didn't call for help. It's not that same scenario. Gary's fiance was taken to the hospital. She was injured and traumatized, but her main concern was for Gary and his family. And that's amazing.

[Mike Gibson]

It really is.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, when you think about it, what she went through was horrific and hard to imagine, but she's not thinking about herself. She's thinking about her fiance and her fiance's family. What are they going through?

[Mike Gibson]

Tells you about her character.

[Mike Ferguson]

Gary's sister, Diane Clary, recalled, she was so good to us when she was so hurt and she was beat up, scraped up, and had, like, rug burns all over every joint she had. And she was trying to comfort us. She was really very special. She was just crushed.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, she lost the love of her life.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, here's a couple planning to get married, but they hadn't gotten married yet. Think back to that period that's kind of like, for many, the most blissful that you'll ever be. I'm not saying people aren't happy once they get married, but that kind of courtship period before is all smiles and rainbows most of the time. According to Detective Scott Day, Gary's fiance was legally blonde without her glasses, and she wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. So her description was vague. She didn't know the suspect, who she described as a white male in his early 20s with blonde hair, a scraggly beard, and possibly a mustache. He was between 59 and 5 10, and weighed about 170 pounds.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, not a bad description, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not a bad description, but it's also, I think, one that would fit quite a few individuals. You know, 5, 9, 5 10. That's a very average height. 170 pounds. That's an average weight. There's nothing really standing out there now. Long blond hair, scraggly beard, maybe that rules out quite a few people.

[Mike Gibson]

But yeah, it might help limited it down a little bit. But if I'm that person, knowing that someone's coming after me, maybe I'm shaving my face and cutting my hair.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, or even dyeing your hair.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which you do anyway.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey now.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators found it puzzling that the killer was partially undressed and barefoot, but speculated that he might have removed his bloody clothing after killing Gary. Gary was larger than the killer, but according to Detective Dennis Dill, per the Daily Oklahoman, it was almost a classic textbook assault. He hit the vital organs, which caused a lot of blood loss and loss of strength. Larson didn't have a chance.

[Mike Gibson]

Like he knew what to do or got lucky.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, one or the other. On August 19, 1986, the police released a composite drawing of the suspect. An officer told the public that a man matching the description was seen in the area on the evening of the murder. And I'm sure they went door to door. Right. Talking to all the the neighbors. Investigators also ran background checks on Gary's friends and business associates. Gary had been married before, but there was no evidence of any issues with his ex wife. It was said to have been an amicable divorce. Gary's finances were in order and there didn't appear to be any suspicious business dealings.

[Mike Gibson]

So nothing really jumping out yet.

[Mike Ferguson]

No them struck on anything that's, that's leading them in a certain direction. One detective told the Show Salt this guy wasn't just an angel. We couldn't find anything.

[Mike Gibson]

So for the detectives, this has to be kind of frustrating because you want to try to find some type of lead to get you going.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, you don't want your victim to, to be a bad person. But it would be helpful for the investigation if you had something to go on. Right. A. A business deal gone bad, something to show a motive on the part of someone. Gary's fiance also had no known enemies. The police looked into all the men she knew as potential suspects, but none of those leads panned out. The entire community was fearful, especially because the police believe the killer lived in or was familiar with the area.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I definitely would not leave my windows open after this.

[Mike Ferguson]

No no, absolutely not. But you know, think about living in a neighborhood and learning that a man was killed in his home, his fiance was raped in the home.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean I think an entire city is going to be fearful, but you're especially going to be fearful in that neighborhood if police think that the person might live there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, because now you're thinking, is he lingering around?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it sounds like he was kind of stalking. So maybe he's going to be stalking another house soon. It's going to be scary stuff. Edmund experienced another tragedy just four days after the murder. On August 20, 1986, postal worker Patrick Cheryl entered the Edmond post office and shot 20 of his co workers, killing 14 and injuring six. Before he fatally shot himself. Detectives were still working on Gary's case, but pretty much all media attention shifted to the mass shooting. And this was huge, right? This was absolutely a huge case.

[Mike Gibson]

I remember when this happened you weren't working for the post office at this time. You were still probably in school.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't even think I was in high school yet. I know you were onto your fourth PhD. I was still probably in junior high but this was a big mass shooting. It also might be kind of the if not to start one of the, the main things of that, that whole going postal.

[Mike Gibson]

Right term. I was just thinking the same.

[Mike Ferguson]

Seven months later the FBI released a profile of the killer which confirmed police suspicion that the murder was random. Authorities released the profile in hopes of refreshing the public's memory of Gary's case. The FBI concluded per the Daily Oklahoma, the killer is familiar with the neighborhood and may even live in the area. The crime was one of circumstances probably committed under the influence of alcohol and or drugs and was not planned. The killer blames women for his own failures and and may have had violent confrontations with women before. Those who know him may suspect that he is capable of such a crime unless he is financially dependent on another person. He lives in subsidized or low rent housing. Larson's assailant was a single white man who has had difficulty establishing long term relationships with women and is uncomfortable about the situation. He likely has a short temper and erratic behavior that has caused problems in his relationships, employment or finances.

[Mike Gibson]

So he's a woman hater and he's.

[Mike Ferguson]

Frustrated with women and that's why he hates women. Now we've talked about this before. When you think about a profile, a lot of them are very similar. There are reasons for that, but they do tend to be fairly similar.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now we know in this case it's a White male. Because we have a surviving witness.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

So it's not like they're pulling that one out of a hat.

[Mike Gibson]

So the FBI saying that they may be living in the area, maybe in some low income, subsidized housing. Obviously, if you're anywhere near that, you are scared.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did you say you have this killer and serial killer, sexual predator living right next to you? Yeah, yeah, you're definitely scared. But also may even live in that exact area. But the rest of the stuff, you know, difficulties with relationships with women, erratic behavior. I understand why they say all those.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to the profile, people who knew the killer probably noticed behavioral changes after reading news stories about the murder. The killer might have become withdrawn and likely leaned on drugs or alcohol to cope with his guilt. He might have left the area temporarily. The man was likely aware that his acquaintances suspected him of the crime and viewed them as possible threats. The FBI also believed the killer possessed tendencies indicative of a serial killer, and authorities feared he would strike again.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, if he did this one so easily, maybe he would.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I can understand the rationale behind all of it. Obviously there was something compelling him to commit this crime, and so far he's gotten away with it. So it's logical, right, that that urge is going to come back again and he's going to do it again.

[Mike Gibson]

Now, I've never sat around after hearing about some local crime, murder, and thought, oh, that's my one friend. Have you?

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no, I've never had a thought that, oh, well, you know, maybe it could be so and so.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Never once crossed my mind.

[Mike Gibson]

That's reassuring.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to a reporter from the Daily Oklahoman, the FBI reached out to the paper and asked them to put out stories profiling the killer and making statements that authorities hoped would enrage him and get him to show himself. And, you know, this is interesting, right? Using the media. A lot of the times the media is trying to get information from the authorities that the authorities don't want to give up. Here you have, as we've seen before in real life and especially in movies, the authorities using the media to kind of draw out the killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Sometimes that partnership's needed.

[Mike Ferguson]

It reminds me a little bit of the Hannibal Lecter one, the Red Dragon one.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They use Philip Seymour Hoffman's character. You know, he's like this journalist for a tabloid and they have him print a bunch of stories that are actually made up but are meant to enrage the killer. They do, because he ends up killing Philip Seymour Huffman.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just over three years later on August 29, 1989, 25 year old John Brent Johnson was charged with first degree murder, first degree rape, and first degree burglary in connection with the case. Police believe Johnson was the one who broke into the home, stabbed Gary to death, and raped his fiance because they surprised him during a burglary. So this is kind of a little bit of a different take on the crime. Right. There was kind of a thought that maybe this was a sexual predator. Casing the house only killed Gary because Gary was in his way of getting to his actual intended victim. Now we have the thought that maybe this was a burglary gone wrong. Gone wrong. Johnson had a criminal record. In November 1987, he pled guilty to grand larceny, two burglaries, and possession of a stolen vehicle. He was sentenced to six years, but was released on June 5, 1989. Johnson came under suspicion when the police came to his workplace to question him about a July 1989 robbery. He fled out of a back door and had not been seen since. Detective Dill believed Johnson's 1987 mugshot looked similar to the composite sketch of the suspect in the Larson case. The police wanted to compare the crime scene evidence, mainly the bloody footprint, to Johnson in hopes of finding a match. But Johnson's on the run, right? And he was on the run for a number of weeks. In September, it was announced that he would be featured on America's Most Wanted. And you and I talk about America's Most Wanted a lot. To me, if you were a criminal back when that show aired, hearing an announcement that they were going to profile you would probably cause you to start shaking in your booties for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

To the point you're probably like, okay, time for me to move on from where I'm at right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I got to change up my look. I got to, you know, get to a different country. That show was watched by a lot of people, and a lot of people were caught and, or turned in, you know, by being profiled on that show.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you don't want to be part of that last segment where they go, update.

[Mike Ferguson]

We got so and so. On September 23, 1989, Johnson turned himself in with his attorney before the episode could air. So obviously he must have found out that he was going to be profiled. On December 22, 1989, Gary's fiance testified against Johnson at his preliminary hearing and identified him as the man who raped her. She testified that about 20 minutes after she and Gary went to sleep, they heard a noise. Gary got up to investigate and she heard him scream. She said it was a gut scream from deep inside. He was in pain. Dire pain.

[Mike Gibson]

Had to be tough retelling that story.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well and just reliving that screen, that's probably not going away. She testified that the intruder startled her in the bedroom. She struggled against him and screamed loudly, hoping to attract help. She later tried to reason with him and testified, per the Daily Oklahoman. I felt that the only way I was going to live through it was to try to reason with him. I told him I was a virgin and Gary and I were going to get married and have a family. I told him he didn't really want to do that. I didn't know at that time that Gary was already dead. She said he tried to suffocate her several times, saying at one point that she started saying the 23rd Psalm, because I really thought I was going to die.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm sure she did.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is, you know, heart wrenching testimony. John Johnson told the Oklahoman after the hearing. I'm innocent. It's awful, but I didn't have anything to do with it. The preliminary hearing continued. In January 1990, Johnson's friend Leslie Kerry testified that Johnson came home on August 16, 1986, and admitted to killing someone in Edmond during a burglary. Kerry testified he said he'd done a burglary and he thinks he did. An old boy. He thinks he stabbed him to death. Okay. I don't know who calls a man an old boy, but yeah, and I.

[Mike Gibson]

Don'T know how you remain a friend with somebody like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, they could have been ex friends by this point. I don't know. It just said, you know, Johnson's friend. Maybe one time friend. But, you know, this is damning stuff, right? You have the victim identifying you, you have a friend coming forward and testifying that you admitted to killing someone during a burglary in Edmond. Hey, things are not looking good for this Johnson guy.

[Mike Gibson]

Not at all.

[Mike Ferguson]

Johnson and Kerry lived together and committed burglaries together in the late 80s. And at the time of the hearing, Kerry was serving 10 years for the July 1989 burglary. He said he made no deals in exchange for his testimony. Well, maybe that answers your question, Gibbs. You. Maybe they were friends.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

But as we often see, you know, once somebody in the friendship or the partnership is pinched and they're doing time, what are they willing to say to maybe get a little leniency? Now he's saying he didn't get any deals, but we don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe he had A higher standard. I just rob. I don't do anything more than that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Johnson left the trailer around 10pm on August 15 and returned around 6 or 7am on the 16th with blood on his hands and clothing. At first he claimed the blood was from a cut, but then he admitted he killed someone. Again, this is all testimony right from Leslie Carrie. The court heard that Johnson was charged with murder after Gary's fiance picked him out of a photo lineup. His defense attorney argued she identified him because the police methods were improperly suggestive and we don't know whether or not they were. What I will say is if they were, it wouldn't be the first time.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, it's been proven in many different cases that maybe they didn't have as many different photos as they should have. Maybe the person was holding his finger on the one that they wanted the victim to select. There's been all kinds of strange things that have happened throughout the years.

[Mike Gibson]

Can't really say it's unbiased.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, you hope it is, but it hasn't always been. Right. That's the thing. Now, I do believe these are outliers, especially today, but I'm not going to say that it still doesn't happen today. But one thing I do want to talk about is Gary's fiance being called Legally Blonde and knowing that she wasn't wearing her glasses that night. To me, that's going to make identification pretty tough. And it would give some ammunition, you would think, to a defense attorney to explore that.

[Mike Gibson]

Some good ammunition.

[Mike Ferguson]

On February 23, 1990, a judge ordered Johnson to stand trial. Prosecutors intended on seeking the death penalty. Two months later, on April 20, Johnson was eliminated as a suspect by tests that determined his hair was not consistent with pubic hairs left at the scene by the rapist. And his footprint didn't match the one found inside the home. His blood type was also different from the rapist. Okay, so I mean, let's just think about this. Now this guy's not a free man because he's still going to have to serve a seven year sentence for that burglary. But he was facing death.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure he was.

[Mike Ferguson]

And a murder conviction.

[Mike Gibson]

So he's feeling pretty good at this point.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I'll do my seven years because I actually did that. Right. This other stuff I didn't do. But it's a scary thought that someone could be charged and even convicted for murder and not have committed the murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, there's a lot of people sitting out there in that situation right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we don't know how many. In a phone interview with the Daily Oklahoman, Johnson said, I just don't know how to explain it. What I went through, it was a terrible ordeal. I just didn't think something like this could happen to somebody. I never thought something like that could happen to me especially. I'm going to live differently. I haven't been the best guy in the world. You know, I have done wrong, but I'd never do anything like that. I'm just going to make the best of it and, and try to get on with my life and try to look past this. I really feel that's all I can do. The system is terrible. It's as crooked as can be.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, it sounds like he's going to make a good decision to just get out of that business altogether.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Now he's making a distinction between the crimes that he committed and this one. And there is a distinction.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure there is.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm not saying burglary is good, but it's a far cry from murder and rape.

[Mike Gibson]

But it throws you into a certain type of pool.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, let's face it, he most likely would have never got caught up in this investigation had he not committed the burglar.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

A pretzel knot and just sit on him until the police got there.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'll tie him right up. But let's face it, this guy's got kids, right? So he may have, you know, had a significant other as well. I don't know. I didn't say that. But he's got a family, so he's got to be worried about a guy standing outside of his Home dressed all in black. Are you just going to let that guy walk away? No. If you're not Johnny Cash, you're going down because that's the only. That's the only one that should be wearing all black. That's right. The man was soon identified as 38 year old Jonathan Scott Graham.

[Mike Gibson]

Officers went to Graham's address and spoke to his father, who agreed to let.

[Mike Ferguson]

Them search the residence. Officers found a computer and were granted.

[Mike Gibson]

Permission to search it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators found photos taken through a window screen looking into a bathroom of a home. There were also photos of nude people. Okay. Pretty easy to see that this is some kind of Peeping Tom at the very least. And creepy. Oh, very creepy. The computer was taken to the police department for a more thorough search. Now, Graham was initially arrested on a misdemeanor peeping Tom charge. Detective Scott Day started working the case.

[Mike Gibson]

The next day and read the report.

[Mike Ferguson]

With the homeowner statement that he was suspicious Graham had been trying to take pictures through the window. To charge Graham with a felony, the police had to prove he was taking photos of the house he was caught peeping into. So, apparently misdemeanor to look in or peep. Right, but felony to take a picture into is what I'm getting from that statement. Same here. Didn't we talk about it at one point? Maybe I'm just not remembering. It's been a long time. Well, that would be shocking my memory. Yeah. How Peeping Tom came to be, how the word people or the term Peeping Tom.

[Mike Gibson]

No, I don't remember. We probably did, but I don't remember it now. Yeah, but it's good podcast, though. It is. Yeah, it's good. Good. Detective Day studied the Eagleston's home so.

[Mike Ferguson]

He could recognize it if it showed up in photos from Graham's computer. Got an eerie feeling and realized that.

[Mike Gibson]

The house was just one block away from the Larson crime scene.

[Mike Ferguson]

So Detective Day started looking back at the Larson case file and found that Graham fit the suspect profile. He was 20 years old at the time of the murder and lived with his parents a block from the crime scene. He moved out of town soon after the attack, but apparently was still living with his parents at the age of 38. It sounds like some people do that. Some do. In the basement with their computer. With their computer yelling at their mom for more lasagna. A background check showed that Graham was charged in Waco, Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon. I didn't even know you could be.

[Mike Gibson]

Charged in Texas for unlawfully carrying a weapon. I Just assumed it was completely lawful for everyone to carry in Texas.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's what I thought so, too. Probably not back then. I'm pretty sure it is today, though. Heck, it's lawful here in Ohio now for everyone to carry. On June 16, 2000, he was caught peeping into someone's house.

[Mike Gibson]

The police stopped him in the neighborhood.

[Mike Ferguson]

He was carrying a camera and was arrested. When the police searched his car, they found a bag that contained black clothing, gloves, duct tape, sex toys, lubricant, condoms, knives, swords, handcuffs, lock picking tools, and lighter fluid. What the heck? Okay. I mean, people carry a lot of different things in their vehicle. Sure. This is a strange menagerie of things that you're going to have to explain. I mean, I remember being in your truck once, and I opened up that.

[Mike Gibson]

One bag and I quickly closed it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because I was like, I. I don't even want to see what I'm seeing at this point. But this is another level. This is. I mean, it's like a kit for.

[Mike Gibson]

Doing all kinds of bad things. Breaking and entering, murder, sexual assault. I mean, who carries swords? Zorro.

[Mike Ferguson]

Zorro? No. Today, I don't know. Yeah. In recent years. I don't know. Graham admitted he was a voyeur and had been struggling for years. However, he said the bag was for.

[Mike Gibson]

Fantasy and not reality, per the Oklahoma.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is my fantasy bag with black clothing, duct tape, sex toys, knives, swords, you know, all that. Well, clearly. Well, clearly he has to come up with something. Yeah. What are you going to say? Yeah, but even if it's your fantasy, you got some strange fantasies. Yeah. A little bizarre. When Detective Day read that Graham was also barefoot at the time of his.

[Mike Gibson]

2000 arrest, he felt strongly that he.

[Mike Ferguson]

Was involved in the Larson murder. And again, that it's such a strange element.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're dressed all in black, but yet you're barefoot. Again, I don't know how many burglars go barefoot. You can move quieter. Oh, there's no doubt about it. I just don't know how many people do it. But when you have this kind of peeping Tom incident very close to a murder scene that happened years prior where the perpetrator was also barefoot, it's pretty hard to discount. It really is. Detective Day was working on a search warrant to get Graham's footprint. When he learned Graham was released on bail, investigators were worried he would leave town. I think I'd be worried, too. I mean, if this guy was the killer slash rapist, he has to know it's probably a matter of time before they Figure out that he did that. Time to get out of Dodge. Yeah. They focused on analyzing the computer as quickly as they could to get more serious charges filed. And that's the problem. Right. He's released on bail because right now he's not charged with the serious crimes.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we gotta find something so we can lock him down for a while. A detective found over 250 files of child pornography and voyeuristic images Graham downloaded online. Now, these weren't real peeping tom images.

[Mike Gibson]

But they were made to look that way.

[Mike Ferguson]

What it did was it showed that his downloads showed he had an obsession with voyeurism. It may be enough to do something. He was rearrested on felony peeping tom charges. Fifteen counts of possession of child pornography and two counts of taking clandestine photographs. He was held without bond.

[Mike Gibson]

Clandestine?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I don't know. You usually hear that word used in, like, special ops type stuff. You do. Graham's footprint was taken and sent to the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation for comparison to the 1986 footprint from the crime scene. On April 28, 2004, investigators determined the prints matched. Two days later, Jonathan Graham was charged with first degree murder for the death of Gary Larson. DNA testing in late May also linked him to the crime scene. Unfortunately, Graham could only be charged with murder because the statute of limitations had expired for rape charges. And that is bizarre to me.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that has been, you know, changed in a lot of jurisdictions. We know there's no statute of limitations on murder. The statute of limitations on rape and other sexual crimes in the past has been very short. I think in a lot of places, it's been lengthened dramatically. I don't think you should ever get a pass on it. No, I don't think so either. Because of all the technology and everything. If you committed a sexual crime 20, 30 years ago and they just figure it out today, I still think you.

[Mike Gibson]

Should have to pay for that. You should.

[Mike Ferguson]

Graham's trial was delayed. Later that year, Gary Larson's family and his former fiance urged the prosecution to consider a plea deal. Gary's former fiance didn't want to go through the trauma of a trial or the lengthy appeals process of a death penalty case. They all just wanted Graham off the street so that he couldn't hurt anyone else. And I think that's a decision that, you know, a lot of victims, Families have to make sure and a lot of victims themselves have to make. I think you have to respect it, too. Yeah, you got to weigh the pros and the cons. You may be in favor of the death penalty, you may not be. You know, there are some downsides of a death penalty conviction.

[Mike Gibson]

We all know how many different appeals.

[Mike Ferguson]

They get, you know, as part of the process, and rightfully so, before you're gonna put somebody to death. It also takes a very long time because of those appeals. And to think that his fiance and his family, I don't want to say they've gotten over it, but a lot of time is packed. Yeah. And to have to relive all that again. Well, and if you're her, if you're the fiance, you're going to have to.

[Mike Gibson]

Relive it in front of a bunch of strangers and friends and family, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that's tough.

[Mike Gibson]

That's not easy for anybody.

[Mike Ferguson]

On January 5, 2005, Jonathan Graham received three consecutive life sentences without parole after pleading guilty to first degree murder, first degree rape, and first degree burglary. The last two charges were previously ruled past the statute of limitations, but were added as part of the plea agreement. And that might have gone into their thinking as well. I want him to pay for the rape and the burglary. Prosecutors agreed not to seek the death penalty if Graham would plead guilty to all charges against him, including taking clandestine photos and possessing child pornography. And not to say that those aren't important charges, because they are, especially the child pornography is horrible. Sure it is. But I think, you know, if you're Graham, you're already facing three life sentences. I mean, what, taking those charges or pleading to those charges, what's that? What's that going to do? Not going to change anything. No. And they had the evidence to prove it anyway. Graham claimed he did not commit any additional crimes. But if crimes he didn't confess come to light, the state will consider the agreement void and seek the death penalty. Oh, boy. That would be an interesting scenario. Hey, we just linked you through DNA to this other case. Now your three life sentences are gone, and we're going after you. Yeah. Capital murder. Graham agreed to a recorded interview as part of the agreement. Parts of this interview were presented in the solved episode covering this case. Graham was asked to explain what happened on the night of August 16, 1986.

[Mike Gibson]

He said, I just went out to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pee and went out to a different street. I usually don't leave my street. And went to that street and was just opportunistic. I just was wandering around, seeing what windows I could look into, and that light just happened to be on. And I looked into the window, and she didn't have any clothes on. And she was coming out of the bathroom, I assumed, going to bed. He claimed he never saw Gary Larson. He left and returned to the house armed with the knife. He saw that the lights were off and he decided he was going to rape the woman he saw earlier that night. He went through one of the front windows and wandered around the house for a while in the dark. He bumped into Gary coming down the hallway and was surprised, he said, out of excitement, fear, shock. I don't remember much of the incident other than I pushed him against one of the walls. And until I was told last year, I didn't know how many times I had stabbed him because I was so surprised. Graham was scared and didn't know what to do. The woman was screaming, so he went down the hall and found her in the bathroom. He said, I think I was just trying to knock her unconscious. And then decided that I couldn't do it without hurting her. So I figured if I could just tie her up. I don't remember too much about it other than she didn't want me to hurt her. And I pretty much decided that not. Well, I didn't want to. At a certain point, he acknowledged that he raped a woman, saying, because that's what I came for. Initially, he was asked what he liked about committing these types of crimes. And he said, control, Doing whatever I want to do. And Gibbs, you've heard that said about rape so many times that it's about control. And here you have a guy actually admitting it makes him feel powerful. But I also thought it was interesting that, you know, he's claiming not to know that Gary was, was in the house. And I think it's kind of easy to believe that, you know, most opportunistic rapists, I don't believe, would go into a house knowing that they're going to have to fight a man. Most of them would pick a target that's much more vulnerable. I'll use that word, because I think that's how they think. So I, I believe that he thought this woman was alone in the home. I believe that too. And was surprised when he encountered Gary in the hallway. Now, he did what he did. He stabbed him, you know, 20 something times and killed him. But just think how his thought process worked. Right?

[Mike Gibson]

This is what I'm going to do.

[Mike Ferguson]

I was peeping in this home in. Just for a second, think about how he said he would go up and down his street. If you're one of his neighbors, you.

[Mike Gibson]

Know that at some point he peeped in your home. Oh, absolutely. He even Said it right. I normally stayed on my street. Normally meant what? How often did you go out nightly? So you're into peeping into everybody's homes and. But you know, I think what it does show, and it's, and it's kind.

[Mike Ferguson]

Of been shown Right. Throughout time, is that a lot of these people start with peeping. And I'm not saying peeping is harmless at all. It's terrible, absolutely. But it then progresses to other things, you know, we've heard of. You know, the next thing is they're stealing underwear off the clothesline or they're, they're slipping into people's houses and stealing underwear or whatever that is. And then it progresses to some type of sexual assault and may ultimately progress to murder. But he just made it sound so casual. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he did. Jonathan Scott Graham will spend the rest of his life in prison. So, Gibbs, as we wrap this one up. Yeah, I think when you look at a guy like Jonathan Graham, he obviously had a pattern of behavior, some of which we, we just touched on. I think what it shows is that he was a violent sexual predator who was in all types of different ways, a danger to the community. Now, he claimed he didn't commit any additional murders or sexual assaults after 1986, but you really have to question that. I know Gary Larson's family has come out and said they don't believe that's true. I can't believe that's true either. No, I mean, here's a guy who's, you know, out casing his street, neighborhood every night, peeping into windows. He commits this murder and sexual assault, but that's the only thing he ever does.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I don't think that scared him.

[Mike Ferguson]

To not do it anymore. No. Because he didn't get caught for many, many years. So it's not like that urge is going to go away. So it's hard for me to believe that he doesn't have a lot of.

[Mike Gibson]

Other crimes under his belt.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't know if he ever murdered anyone again. Maybe he was more careful. But to say that or to think that he didn't commit any more sexual crimes, that's very hard to believe. Yeah, I don't think it was a one and done thing. And Larson's family has even come out and said they don't think that, you know, he would commit rape and murder just one time and never do it again. And I'm kind of in that line of thinking, too.

[Mike Gibson]

As of 2025, Graham has not been.

[Mike Ferguson]

Linked to additional sexual assaults or murders but again, that doesn't mean he didn't commit them. It's hard to link those. Sure. I think for me, the last thing that I want to talk about is Gary's fiance and Brent Johnson. You know, she had to have had some remorse at some point for picking him out of a lineup. Now, maybe she was coerced or kind of led that way by the police, I don't know. But she was also legally blind and didn't have her glasses on. Right. So it could have been an honest mistake. But still, you, you, you would have to have some remorse. And in finding out that you picked the wrong person, and obviously, you know, this Johnson guy, he.

[Mike Gibson]

There's no doubt his life was altered for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, he did spend time for burglary, so he wasn't a saint, but as far as we know, he wasn't a murderer and rapist either. And sounds like maybe this scared him straight. Like, I'm not going to do anything wrong ever again after this. Well, that's what, that's what prison is supposed to do. Yeah. Right. It doesn't work for everyone, but it's supposed to be, you know, rehabilitation.

[Mike Gibson]

You do your time, you get out, you. You become a productive member of society.

[Mike Ferguson]

To be accused of murder, that's going.

[Mike Gibson]

To probably change the way you do.

[Mike Ferguson]

Things and face the death penalty. Yeah, yeah. I think it adds an extra Scared Straight element to it. Yeah, for sure. But talking about the fiance, though, what.

[Mike Gibson]

A amazing woman, really, to go through.

[Mike Ferguson]

What she went through to survive such a horrific ordeal. Well, and then, you know, the.

[Mike Gibson]

Just think about the 20 years after it. This Johnson guy is thought to be the person. Yeah. Then they. They link Graham to it. So she's got to go through all of this and relive it, and so does Gary's family.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, yeah, I mean, you have to say that she was a pretty strong woman, just in the fact that she was able to compose herself as that horrific ordeal was going on and kind of try to talk him into not hurting her. And it did work. You know, he tied her up and he left her in the closet. And I think you said she was trying to get him to see her as a human being. And maybe what she did worked and maybe that's the reason she lived. Sure. But that's it for our episode on Jonathan Scott. Graham, we got a voicemail. You want to hear it? Let's hear it. Hi, this is Andrew. I've been listening to you guys for quite a few years. Team Gibby. You guys are awesome. I Gotta say, was listening to the Johnny Lewis episode.

[Mike Gibson]

Episode.

[Mike Ferguson]

Gibby was right. Drake the rapper was on a Nickelodeon show, just not Drake and Josh.

[Andrew (Voicemail Caller)]

It was a Canadian show. And he was also right about Katy Perry singing a tiger song. I think it's called Roar. And you were wrong. It's not called paper bags. It's called fireworks. As a 36 year old man, I probably shouldn't know this stuff, but I do. You guys are awesome. Keep your own time taken. Thanks for what you do.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right.

[Andrew (Voicemail Caller)]

Love the voicemail. I love how I'm wrong, but you're right. Even though none of that was right in your head. Drake was not on. Was not Drake of Drake and Josh. He was on another show.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I've got tons of emails and voicemails about this. He. I guess he was on Degrassi, which I've never seen. I don't remember my kids watching that one, but apparently he was on that. And then. So Katy Perry sings a song called Roar and you said it was eye of the tiger, but because the word tiger is in it, you're correct. I am correct, yes. People love you so much, they will find a way to defend you. Good old, good old Drake, man. I remember, you know, back in the day when he worked at shoppers drug mart up in Canada. Then he went on to do the Degrassi, you know, and then Katie came along and like, let's do a tiger song. Roar.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I just. I'm gonna spend a week in your mind. I don't know. It's a long time trip, man. I don't know if I can handle it. I don't know. But we appreciate the. The voicemail. Thank you. All right, buddy.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we had no mail back this week, so that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.