Julie Williams

Summary

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True Crime All The Time – Episode 510: Julie Williams

Hosts: Mike Ferguson and Mike "Gibby" Gibson
Release Date: June 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike and Gibby unpack the chilling 1986 cyanide poisoning case that killed Julie Williams, an innocent bystander targeted in a murder plot gone wrong. The story centers on a murder attempt against Diane Harry, orchestrated by her husband, Lewis Allen Harry Jr., which tragically resulted in Julie’s death. The hosts explore the intricate web of motives, evidence, false leads, and courtroom drama surrounding one of Arizona’s most unsettling true crime cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Julie Williams? (05:08–06:59)

• Background:
  Julie Ann Williams was born in Sanger, California (July 22, 1939), a divorced mother of three. She moved to Mesa, Arizona for a fresh start, working as a "floater" at Transamerica Title Insurance Company.

• Her Life in Mesa:
  Julie lived with her daughter Nancy, and son-in-law Mike Brady (leading to some “Brady Bunch” riffs from the hosts). She was described as a “wonderful mother-in-law” and someone who spread “a lot of light on everyone she met.”

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2. The Poisoning Incident (07:31–10:16)

• Event Breakdown:
  On March 24, 1986, Julie drank water from the office cooler and collapsed almost immediately. Other coworkers noticed the water tasted and smelled bitter but avoided swallowing it, sparing them from illness.

• Office Water Cooler Vulnerability:
  The hosts riff on the dangers of communal office water coolers:

  • Mike: “Everybody can picture that type of water cooler... You could pour anything you want in there.” (09:59)

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3. The Intended Target – Diane Harry (10:38–14:07)

• Diane’s Account:
  Diane Harry, Julie's coworker, suspected something was wrong when the water smelled like bad scotch she’d recently tried (which also made her sick and faint).

• Investigating Diane’s Husband, Lewis:

  • Lewis Harry Jr, athletic manager at a local college, had a checkered past: robbery, forgery, and assaulting federal DEA agents during a botched heroin deal in 1977.

• Hosts’ Observation:

  • Mike: “Don’t sell heroin... Don’t try to sell heroin to undercover agents. And then, don’t try to rob the undercover agents you were supposed to sell heroin to.” (15:05)

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4. Cyanide Everywhere – The Killing Weapon (15:23–16:59)

• Evidence:

  • Water cooler and coffee pot in the office both tested positive for cyanide.
  • Investigators concluded the intended victim was Diane, but Julie drank the water first and became the sole fatality.

• Moral Reflection:

  • Mike: “Julie Williams... just went into work to do her job... she was just thirsty and died of cyanide poisoning.” (18:49)

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5. Motive and Investigation (20:31–24:39)

• Upgrading the Charges:

  • After Julie's death, Lewis was charged with first-degree murder, and four counts of attempted murder (targeting Diane, two coworkers, and the prior scotch incident).

• Where Did the Cyanide Come From?

  • Confusion over whether the cyanide used matched what was seized at Lewis’s home. Eventually, forensics revealed both were potassium cyanide. (24:39)

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6. The Wife’s Perspective: Standing by Her Man (25:28–26:44, 39:34–40:06)

• Diane’s Testimony:
  Diane told reporters and the jury:

  • “I do not believe Lewis tried to kill me. I have never believed it.” (26:16)

• Committed Relationship:

  • Diane described their marriage as harmonious and saw Lewis as a scapegoat.

• Hosts’ Reaction:

  • Gibby: “You wouldn’t want to believe it.” (26:27)
  • Mike: “For most people, they'd have a very hard time coming to that conclusion.” (26:29)

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7. Attack or Setup? Enter the Ex-Boyfriend (29:13–46:19)

• Threatening Letters Subplot:

  • Diane and Lewis were receiving threatening mail, believed to be from Roy Fitzpatrick, the ex-boyfriend of Lewis’s lover.
  • Some letters, however, were written in Lewis’s handwriting on legal pads from his office.

• The Affair Motive:

  • Lewis had begun an affair with Verbrae Ann Wooten (who became pregnant, but miscarried).
  • A $75,000 insurance policy on Diane, a $32,000 work policy, and $5,000 in stocks potentially deepened his motive.

• Wooten’s Testimony:

  • Confirmed Fitzpatrick’s threats (even to poison Lewis), but Fitzpatrick only admitted to writing some letters.

• False Flags?

  • Hosts weigh whether Roy, Lewis, or both tried to muddy investigative waters.

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8. The Trial: Circumstantial, but Compelling (47:52–55:01)

• Stacking Evidence:

  • Handwriting expert confirmed Lewis’s signature on the cyanide purchase receipt.
  • Security logs showed Diane's keycard accessing the office when she wasn’t there (likely Lewis used it).
  • Lab technician said Lewis asked about cyanide weeks before the murder: “Lewis also wanted to know how much cyanide was needed to kill someone.” (41:20)

• Lewis’s Defense:

  • Offered alternative explanations for much of the evidence “I don’t remember being at the warehouse where police said the cyanide was purchased.” (51:24)

• Jury Deliberation:

  • Found evidence overwhelmingly against Lewis, especially the keycard and cyanide purchase, leading to conviction.
  • Juror Dale Griffin: “Not one of us felt he really looked us straight in the eye. And he had this funny look in his eye when he said [he was innocent].” (55:19)

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9. Sentencing & Aftermath (56:33–62:29)

• Consequences:

  • Life in prison for murder, plus consecutive attempted murder terms totaling 95 years.
  • Judge called the scheme “complete stupidity and senselessness” and described Lewis as sociopathic.

• Missed Alternatives:

  • Mike reflects: “He could have left the marriage... maybe not have had to pay her a bunch of money ... but he didn’t want that. He wanted the life insurance money.” (61:00)

• Final Reflection:

  • Julie Williams was an accidental casualty in a cruel, calculated plan. “She was completely innocent. She had nothing to do with any of this.” (62:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cyanide and Office Water Coolers:

  • Mike: “Those things are scary to me... You could pour anything you want in there...” (09:58)

• On Motive:

  • Gibby: “What are you willing to do to make that happen?” (35:46)

• On Relationships and Belief:

  • Diane: “We had no problems in our marriage whatsoever...” (30:45)

• On Justice:

  • Mike: “If you're willing to do something like this... you don't deserve to walk with the rest of them.” (58:43)

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------|:----------:| | Julie Williams’ background | 05:08 | | The poisoning event at Transamerica | 07:31 | | Diane Harry’s account & Lewis’s background | 10:38 | | Cyanide in coffee pot discovered | 15:23 | | Motive & investigation details | 20:31 | | Diane’s public defense of Lewis | 25:28/39:34| | Threatening letters subplot | 29:13 | | Lewis’s purchases/alibi evidence | 47:52 | | Jury verdict and analysis | 54:25 | | Sentencing and closing insights | 56:33/58:23| | Episode reflection | 61:00 |

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Episode Highlights and Tone

• Engaging Banter: True to their signature style, Mike and Gibby inject levity and personal anecdotes, including office water cooler stories and humorous tangents about high school dating and marriage.
• Serious Reflection: Despite the joking, the hosts offer thoughtful moral and social commentary about trust, motives for murder, and the ripple effects of violent crime.
• Listener Impact: The episode underscores the randomness of violent crime, the importance of circumstantial evidence, and the deep pain left for everyone involved.

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A thorough, captivating breakdown of a tragic case where murder-for-hire tactics not only failed but cost an innocent her life—punctuated with the warmth, wit, and insight that makes True Crime All The Time podcast a community favorite.

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, folks making that decision to start a podcast or really any type of business, it's scary. It was for Gibby and I as well. What if no one listens? What if we make fools of ourselves? And it can be really hard to get over that doubt, but choosing to make that leap was one of the best decisions we've ever made. Another great decision was picking Shopify to help with our podcast merge. It really does help when you have a partner like Shopify on your side. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark to True Crime all the time to brands just getting started. There is a lot to love about Shopify. I love the fact that they're now packed with helpful AI tools that help you write product descriptions and even enhance your product photography. You can easily create email and social media campaigns and if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com tcat go to shopify.com tcat that's shopify.com tcatt

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Mike Ferguson]

And welcome to episode 510 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

Man, I am doing great.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Good.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm still coming off that vacation high. Yeah, still feeling good.

[Mike Gibson]

All right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just trying to figure out how long it will last.

[Mike Gibson]

Hope it lasts a long time for

[Mike Ferguson]

you before I feel like I need another one. Yeah, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Jamie Basil, also known as Pesto.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Elisa Konia.

[Mike Gibson]

Konia.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's what I'm going with. Fernaz Ashuri Hey, Ashuri.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Nikki.

[Mike Gibson]

Basie Posse. Could be. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cynthia.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Cynthia.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Jesse Hake.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, what's going on, Jesse?

[Mike Ferguson]

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Karen Kirk.

[Mike Gibson]

Kirk is in the house.

[Mike Ferguson]

Who you said on Patreon was Captain Kirk's daughter.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely. She knows it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which made no sense whatsoever. Fictional character, is it?

[Mike Gibson]

It is. Maybe not.

[Mike Ferguson]

We have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime All Time Unsolved, where we're talking about Marleene Hayes. She left work early in 1981. She wasn't feeling well and she interrupted someone burglarizing her home. It was a really brutal crime that shocked her neighborhood. And now over 40 years later, her remain.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Her.

[Mike Ferguson]

Her murder remains unsolved.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, tragic.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that's out there right now. Check it out. We did put a Patreon episode out Saturday night that's on Anna Trujillo. This case goes back to 2013. She called 911 to report that her boyfriend was bleeding out inside his apartment. When the police showed up, she answered the door covered in blood. Investigators were met with a shocking scene. But it became even more shocking when they discovered that the murder weapon was her high heeled shoe.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, stiletto.

[Mike Ferguson]

So it's a fascinating case. If you're a Patreon member, make sure you check it out, if you haven't already. If you're not, now's a great time to sign up. This was our 90th Patreon only episode.

[Mike Gibson]

A lot of episodes out there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. Absolutely. And then be on the lookout for a new episode on Thursday. It's on Anna Catherine Cardwell, 20 year old, who was murdered in her home while her mother was away running errands. And it's. It's a real mystery as to who her perpetrator is.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Kind of shocking.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Julie Williams. Julie Anna Williams was born in Sanger, California on July 22, 1939. She was a divorced mother of three adult daughters. She previously worked as an escrow secretary for insurance companies. In 1984, Julie moved from central California to Mesa, Arizona. She came for a fresh start, according to her family. But you know what she didn't want to give up. Is that good weather.

[Mike Gibson]

That good weather, that's for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Moving from California to Arizona, it's not like she moved to Ohio to be near us and experience the harsh winters.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Julie lived with her daughter Nancy, and her son in law, Mike Brady.

[Mike Gibson]

The Brady Bunch.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, you know, when you have the name Mike Brady, how many times a week is somebody gonna bring that up?

[Mike Gibson]

Come up quite a bit. I think back in the 80s, you

[Mike Ferguson]

don't think it would come up today.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, probably too. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's so funny that you would say the 1980s. It's not like people have forgotten the Brady Bunch. Literally. If your name was Mike Brady today, yeah. You would have somebody at least once a week talking about it.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Julie's life centered around her three daughters in church. She made a lot of strong friendships in her two years in Arizona. Steve Lotspike, the husband of Julie's daughter Patty, told the Arizona Republic, she was a wonderful mother in law and her girls feel she spread a lot of light on everyone she met. So Julie worked for Transamerica Title Insurance Company in Tempe, Arizona. The Arizona Republic reported that she was a floater and didn't have a permanent office.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, you know, she gets to go to a different office every, you know, every now and then. It's kind of exciting to be a floater.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. My daughter, who is getting ready to be a senior in college this summer, she's, you know, she's working a job at the hospital as part of her nursing program. And she's a floater, so she may go downtown to the big hospital. They could send her to one of the smaller hospitals out in the suburbs. She just doesn't know. And she kind of enjoys it.

[Mike Gibson]

I think it keeps it exciting.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's what she says anyway. On Monday, March 24, 1986, Julie went to work as usual. At 8am she drank water from the office water cooler. And then almost immediately, she collapsed. Her concerned co workers quickly suspected she became sick from the water. Deborah Gresham and Glenn Myers had also gotten cups of water from the cooler and they brought the water to their lips, tasted it and smelled it and realized there was something in it. They didn't swallow the water and so they didn't become sick, but they did report a bitter taste.

[Mike Gibson]

So I have to confess something. Back in the day, I worked at an office and you know, you used to put those big, you know, gallons of jugs on top.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Of a water cooler. I think that's what we're talking about here.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And I remember it looked dirty. Right. So I thought, you know, I'm going to clean that thing up. So I got the bleach out and I'm like cleaning the Nozzle out. And then I thought, this is stupid. Why don't I just pour some bleach down into the reserve and run it through?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. Because the first part was stupid.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So. So that's what I did. I poured some bleach in. You know, didn't measure it out or anything. I didn't make sure I got the same amount I put in, but I ran it through and, you know, I smelt the bleach, and then I left it. Because you want to leave it, so it kills everything for a little bit, and then you want to run it back out. Well, I got busy, you know, and I obviously, I put the cooler tank back on top, and when I went along my day and until there's a guy in the office, went up to the office and filled a cup up and he took a drink, and he about passed out because of he drank. Basically majority of it was still bleach.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You're lucky he didn't accidentally kill somebody and end up in prison. So I don't mean to Monday morning quarterback you here, but, you know, could you have maybe put a post it note on it, left the actual jug of water off and just said, hey, in the process of being cleaned, there's bleach in this. Don't drink.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I think there was a. A few conversations like that afterwards.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, my goodness, man.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it, you know, we've talked about it before. Those things are scary to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because everybody can picture that type of water cooler. All you have to do is take that, the top part off, the jug part, turn it upside down. You could pour anything you want in there.

[Mike Gibson]

You could.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a. That's a scary thing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I think that most places have kind of gone away from those, you know, individual bottles, sealed. Most places make you pay for your own water now.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They might have a water fountain, but

[Mike Gibson]

most of them have the water fountain with a little bottle filler. Yes. You can press up and fill.

[Mike Ferguson]

Those are big now.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Watching this unfold with Sandra Diane Harry, another Trans America worker. Diane didn't drink from the water cooler, but she did smell a notable odor coming from the water. She told investigators that the water smelled just like a bad bottle of scotch she drank from on Friday, March 21, which caused her to become sick over the weekend. She fainted, but managed to get herself into bed to rest and recover.

[Mike Gibson]

Man got water smelling like a bad bottle of scotch.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, there's something going on.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So investigators soon began looking into Diane's husband A guy named Lewis Allen Harry, junior. Diane and Lewis lived in Maryvale, Arizona. Diane met him at a volleyball match in 1981. She noticed that he was quiet and athletic. He played basketball and worked as a referee in local church Leagues. The two dated for about six months before they moved in together, and then six months after that, they got married. Since 1984, Lewis had worked as an athletic equipment manager at South Mountain Community College in Phoenix. Ed Cattrall, a women's basketball coach, said Lewis was a good employee. He was a good worker. Kind of an athletic nut like myself.

[Mike Gibson]

All right. You were kind of athletic nut?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, Back in my younger days.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Now you're just a nut.

[Mike Ferguson]

Exactly. And very unathletic.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Cattrall recalled meeting Diane once when she picked Louis up after work. But other than that, Louis didn't share much about his personal life. You know, it's funny, we talk about co workers quite a bit, really. You know, people kind of run the gamut. You have people who, you know, don't talk about their personal lives all that much, and. And then you have people who won't stop talking about their personal lives. Sharing way more information than anyone should share.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And probably their family would be mortified if they knew all the things that this person was telling you.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely they would.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I guess that's what makes life interesting, Right? If everybody was exactly the same, how less interesting would life be?

[Mike Gibson]

It'd be pretty uninteresting. I mean, think like the. Was it the Stepford wife or. Stepford wife or.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, the second one.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Definitely.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did you have something to go along with that or.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it would be really boring.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

I didn't know if you were just going to stop right there. A woman identified as Mrs. Tompkins, the couple's next door neighbor, had known them since they moved in two or three years earlier. She told the Arizona Republic that Lewis had been a very good neighbor and a friend, and she didn't know of any domestic problems in the household. Neighbor Darlene Simmons agreed that the couple was nice and quiet. But how many times have we heard that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Whether it's a serial killer or, you know, some other type of murder situation. When neighbors are asked, a lot of times they have nothing but glowing things to say about some of these individuals. Now, not always. Sometimes they're creepy or whatever, but a lot of times they're not. And I think there's a reason for that. Especially in the case of serial killers. They're trying to blend in.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Probably going out of their way to be the good neighbor.

[Mike Gibson]

They don't want to stand out in a bad way.

[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators learned that Lewis had a criminal record. In 1975, he was convicted of robbery in Pima County. He also had a record of forgery and assault with a deadly weapon against a federal agent.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, that's not going to bode well.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, that's a pretty serious crime. In June 1977, he was sentenced to seven years in federal prison on each of two counts of assaulting federal DEA agents. So what happened was these DEA agents were posing undercover as drug buyers. Lewis and an accomplice were going to sell one pound of heroin. Instead, they attempted to rob the agents and were arrested. So, first of all, don't sell heroin.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Secondly, don't try to sell heroin to undercover federal agents. And then, thirdly, don't try to rob the undercover federal agents that you're supposed to be selling heroin to.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm guessing they thought they were invincible.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I'm guessing they obviously didn't know these were federal agents and thought they were going to get away with some money or drugs or both. Lewis completed his probation on March 4, 1985. Based on the March 21 incident, authorities determined that Diane Harry was the intended victim of the office water poisoning. Investigators tested the water and determined it was laced with cyanide. Police also found a powdery substance in the office's empty coffee pot and on coffee cups left there over the weekend. This, too, was identified as cyanide.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, sounds like the individual wanted to make sure and everything was covered.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's the thing, right? If you are trying to kill your wife, as it appears, right. That that's what this guy was doing. I get it. You're trying to make it look like it wasn't you. Maybe it happened at work. But not only are you taking the chance that your wife is going to die, which is, I guess, what. Maybe what you wanted to happen. Yeah, but how do you know that your wife is going to be drinking the water or drinking the coffee? And how many other people could you potentially kill?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, if someone gets water, other people get coffee, and from the coffee pot, somebody else gets. Makes a cup of tea in one of the cups that were laced. I mean, you could have multiple people dying.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it does kind of remind me very much of the Tylenol poisoning. Yeah, Right. You're trying to cover up something, which is what they believe was happening, but you're also putting a bunch of other people at risk.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. You're willing to kill other people to kill the one person you want to be dead.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. So on March 25, 1986, Lewis was brought in for questioning and was booked into jail that evening for attempted murder. He did not admit any involvement in the poisoning. Sadly, Julie Williams died at the hospital on March 26, 1986, and her autopsy confirmed that she died of cyanide poisoning. And, man, I just can't help but think, you know, what a scary situation this is. I've talked about it before, right? Being served food. Yeah, that can be a scary situation. You have no idea what's in that food.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you didn't make it.

[Mike Gibson]

We trust people a lot.

[Mike Ferguson]

We do.

[Mike Gibson]

Like over the top. I mean, especially today. Right. You trust a restaurant that's making it, you got to trust the delivery guy bringing it. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you're ordering it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. That they don't pull over and sprinkle something in there. And then like, for me, I have to trust you that once it gets here, you're not doing something with it to take me out. So there's multiple.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's always weird when I put the food on the plate and hand it to you.

[Mike Gibson]

It freaks me out a little bit. For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do that on purpose, especially when

[Mike Gibson]

mine looks a different shade than everybody else's. I'm like. But then I just don't question it.

[Mike Ferguson]

But then, you know, I think of this woman, Julie Williams. I mean, she just went into work to do her job, right. She didn't hurt anybody.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

As far as I know, she didn't, you know, have any enemies or anything like that. And nobody was even out to hurt her. She was just thirsty and died of cyanide poisoning. Yeah, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just 15amonth. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments, but they.

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

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RV or motorcycle adventure with confidence, visit progressive.com and see how easy it is to protect your favorite way to get away. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates not available in D.C. prices vary based on how you buy. In a brief interview from jail on March 26, Blue Lewis said he didn't know Julie had died. He declined to comment further. So he's not really talking at all. Yeah, which is probably a good thing. It's not in his best interest. On March 28, 1986, prosecutors upgraded the attempted murder charge to first degree murder and added four more counts of attempted murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, yeah, I mean, if someone else would have picked up a cup, they could have potentially died, too. That's a attempt to murder.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. One count was for the March 21st poisoning of his wife, Diane. The other three attempted murder accounts involved the two co workers who drank the poisoned water but spit it out. And then the second attempt on Diane's life. So, you know, go back to the bottle of Scotch, Right. That smelled bad. Obviously, they connected the two. Yeah, he tried to kill her by tainting this bottle of Scotch with cyanide. Detective Michael Palmer told the Arizona Republic, it's obvious he was attempting to kill his wife, not the other people in the office. Investigators declined to discuss where Lewis got the cyanide from at that time. A South Mountain Community College spokeswoman said sodium cyanide was not kept on campus.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I would think it'd be difficult to get your hands on cyanide. And I don't know back then how. How difficult it would have been then. But today, I would think it would be difficult.

[Mike Ferguson]

I would think it'd be a lot harder in 2026 than it was in, you know, 1985. 1986, for sure. I'm also assuming that the Tylenol poisonings would have had something to do with regulation. Right. We always put something in place after something bad happens.

[Mike Gibson]

True.

[Mike Ferguson]

But I think on an episode, you know, within the last couple of months, we were talking about some drug, and we must have said that it's probably pretty hard to get. And I had a bunch of people write in Gibbs and say, I can't remember what the drug was. And they said, no, it's used for this, this and this. It's pretty easy to get, you know, but it's just something you and I would have never thought, experienced, or we have no knowledge of. But other people do, and they're quick to write in, which I love. Yeah, it's not like I Feel like I'm being corrected. I just love to get the information.

[Mike Gibson]

You could buy a bunch of apples and collect the seeds and harvest, like, what do you need, like 10,000 apple seeds and then you can make cyanide out of that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I did not. I was not aware of that.

[Mike Gibson]

I think that's how it works.

[Mike Ferguson]

Are you telling people how to make cyanide? Because I don't think you should be

[Mike Gibson]

doing a lot of apples.

[Mike Ferguson]

How do you like those out?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think you can do it that way.

[Mike Ferguson]

On April 8, 1986, Lewis was indicted on all charges. A pretrial hearing in June was delayed by confusion over the type of cyanide used in the poisoning. Lewis's defense attorney, Richard Steiner, announced that he might attempt to have the case returned to the grand jury because the Tempe police failed to inform the grand jury that the type of cyanide that apparently caused Julie Williams death was different from the type of cyanide found on items taken from Lewis's home. So again, how many different types of cyanide does this guy have?

[Mike Gibson]

It sounds like he's got a few.

[Mike Ferguson]

Deputy County Attorney Cleve lynch said during the hearing that Steiner makes some assumptions based on police reports about evidence that his had not yet been examined by the Arizona Department of Public Safety lab technicians. So maybe there was a little bit of confusion over whether there was different types of cyanide. Before the hearing, a detective prepared a supplemental memo explaining that he was told by a criminalist that the cyanide found in Lewis's home was potassium cyanide and not sodium cyanide. As he told the detective on March 25, the defense received this memo minutes before the hearing. So it sounds like maybe that's where the confusion stemmed from. The judge granted the defense's request for a one week delay so that they could discuss the differences in the two types of cyanide with a chemist from asu.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, probably need to understand that it

[Mike Ferguson]

might be a big part of the case.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Later, reporting by the Arizona Republic clears up the confusion. In a sworn affidavit, Detective Michael Palmer wrote that based on a preliminary test done by an analyst for the Arizona Department of Public Safety, the Tempe police initially reported that Julie was poisoned with sodium cyanide. However, the analysts conducted further tests before informing the grand jury that Julie actually died from potassium cyanide. Investigators seized two vials that contained residue of potassium cyanide from Lewis's home. So this was a big deal, because if you had two different types. Well, it seems like the jury could make a much bigger deal out of that.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, what you found in my client's home was potassium cyanide. But what killed Julie Williams was sodium cyanide. So, you know, how are you making the connection?

[Mike Gibson]

But thankfully, the lab corrected it with the final results to say it was potassium.

[Mike Ferguson]

In July, the judge denied the defense's motion to send the case back to the grand jury. In September 1986, the Arizona Republic interviewed Dyant. She had refused to talk to reporters, but changed her mind because she said it may not come out right in court. I wanted to say what I know. Diane insisted. I do not believe Lewis tried to kill me. I have never believed it.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and let's face it, Gibbs, we've talked about it before. How hard would it be to believe that your significant other was. Was trying to kill you?

[Mike Gibson]

You wouldn't want to believe it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think for most people, they'd have a very hard time.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Coming to that conclusion. Now, just because I get sick every time I eat my wife's cooking, that doesn't mean that she's trying to poison me.

[Mike Gibson]

No, that's just bad cooking.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And she'd be the first one to tell you. Yeah, she hates to cook. Barely tries to. Doesn't follow directions.

[Mike Gibson]

She can't even do the home chef, which gives you step by step instructions

[Mike Ferguson]

with all the necessary ingredients.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, she just does her own thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we're not talking bad about my wife. If she was on this podcast right now, she would literally say the same thing. She hates to cook. She does not want to cook. But I would still have a hard time ever believing my wife was purposefully trying to poison me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Diane recalled that on the morning of March 24, she recognized the almond like smell coming from her office water cooler and immediately called her husband. I told him it's strange. It's the same smell as the bottle of scotch at her house. Diane said that both she and Lewis told a Tempe detective about their experience the previous Friday with the scotch. And Diane asked the Republic if Lewis was trying to hide something, why would he be talking about the scotch? It don't make sense. Diane recalled that the Friday before the office incident, she arrived home before her husband and fixed herself a drink. She thought something was off. The scotch didn't smell right, and it was bitter. When Lewis came home from work a few minutes later, she asked him to try it. And he did. He spit it out and went to the bathroom. To brush his teeth. Diane went outside to get some air. When she came back inside, she passed out. At the time, she thought it was just from working too hard. She threw the scotch out. The following day, Lewis retrieved it. And Lewis was the one who later brought the scotch to a detective.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay. Now it makes you think maybe Lewis didn't have anything to do with this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it is very strange, Right? If he's trying to poison his wife by lacing the scotch with cyanide, why in the world would he take it to a detective and say, hey, I think something strange is going on here.

[Mike Gibson]

So then. Then you have to think, okay, then if it's not Louis, then who wants to kill Diane? Because Diane seems to be the constant in both of those.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or. Yeah. The common denominator. But you can kind of understand why she wouldn't think that Louis was trying to kill her.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Diane also told the Republic that she and Lewis had been receiving threatening mail and thought someone was possibly trying to kill them. They turned over some of those letters to the police. The week before Louis was arrested, he took Diane out and taught her how to shoot a gun. Because of the threatening letters, Diane said that after her husband was arrested, detectives found cigar tubes in the storage room of their home that contained cyanide. However, she noted that storage area is not locked. Anyone could have put it there. So Diane said she believed her husband was a scapegoat because police wanted to solve the murder. Now, the question I would have is, I get it. It's not locked. Technically, anyone could gain access to it. But why in the world would anybody put, you know, some vials of cyanide in your storage room?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe to hide them, to come back later and get them. I guess that's possible.

[Mike Gibson]

Unless they were hoping that she would have died from what happened at the office. And at the same time, they could set up the husband to take the fall.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that's a great observation as well. But she said they had a good marriage, saying, we had no problems in our marriage whatsoever. If we were angry with each other, we wouldn't say anything. We don't holler or shout. You wait till the anger inside you is over, Then we sit and talk about it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Seems like a pretty healthy way to do it. It's not my style, but it's a pretty healthy way to do it.

[Mike Gibson]

It was not Christina style either.

[Mike Ferguson]

Christina and I are very alike, actually. Diane recalled that the police asked if either she or Louis were unfaithful. She said no. They asked about life insurance and whether Louis was angry that she made more money than him. Diane insisted there was no reason her husband would have wanted to kill her. You know, to be honest with you, unless there's a big life insurance policy. Why would you want to kill your spouse when they're the ones making more money than you?

[Mike Gibson]

Good point.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because right now, we don't have the motive. Right. She noted that the week before the poisoning, she And Lewis spent $3,000 remodeling their bathrooms. Diane questioned, why would someone who's going to kill his wife remodel the bathrooms?

[Mike Gibson]

I don't know about that.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, maybe he just wanted to have nice bathrooms.

[Mike Gibson]

That's right. Hey, when you're gone here soon, I want to have a nice bathroom.

[Mike Ferguson]

That one, to me, is not as puzzling as actually taking the bottle of Scotch to a detective. If, in fact, you're the one who put cyanide in the bottle of scotch.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, because you're not really helping your case.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, you're just bringing it to light when you technically, you don't have to. You could just throw it out.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And never speak of it to anyone.

[Mike Gibson]

Like it never existed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Opening arguments in Lewis's murder trial began on November 20, 1986. The jury heard that Lewis tried to kill his wife twice by poisoning her, but ended up causing the death of one of her co workers. Prosecutor Cleve lynch also attacked the claims that Lewis and Diane were being threatened. Lynch noted that contents of two of the letters were written on legal pads from Lewis's office and in his handwriting. Okay. They determined the legal pads were from his office. It would be a little strange to me that Diane wouldn't recognize the handwriting as Lewis's. Yeah, I mean, I would think most spouses would recognize, you know, their significant other's handwriting, especially if they've been together for a while.

[Mike Gibson]

You can tell your wife's handwriting pretty good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

The prosecution described how on March 21st, Diane became sick after drinking a small amount of scotch that was laced with cyanide. She couldn't catch her breath, which is a symptom of cyanide poisoning. According to the prosecution, Lewis was having an affair with a woman he met in January and received four vaguely threatening letters from the woman's ex boyfriend. After Julie Williams was poisoned, Lewis produced two more letters, but these were the ones that were written on yellow legal pads from his office and were written in his handwriting.

[Mike Gibson]

So fake letters?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, maybe. It sounds like there was some real threatening letters that might have come from this woman's ex boyfriend, but then he manufactured two more. And maybe that's why Diane didn't recognize the handwriting, because the first four were not in his handwriting. But just the fact that we have an affair or the prosecution is alleging an affair, you know, if it's true. Well, at least now we do have motive, right? An affair is a motive for murder.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

You want out of the marriage, you want to be with someone else.

[Mike Gibson]

What are you willing to do to make that happen?

[Mike Ferguson]

Investigators discovered There was a $75,000 life insurance policy on Diane, a $32,000 Transamerica policy on Diane, and Diane had $5,000 worth of stock in the company. Louis was the beneficiary of all three.

[Mike Gibson]

There's more motive.

[Mike Ferguson]

More motive. I mean, yeah, you could say it's 100 some thousand dollars, but it's also like the mid-1980s.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's a good chunk of change.

[Mike Ferguson]

So it was more money back then, obviously. Lewis's defense attorney, Richard Steiner, contended that his client was the target of serious threats by a man who was angry because Lewis helped that man's ex girlfriend get a court order against him. The defense also argued that numerous people, including tenants of the 22 offices in the building that house Transamerica, the cleaning crew and construction workers had access to the building. I get it. It's a good argument to make, right? If you're the defense. Hey, this is a big building. There's a lot of people in and out. A lot of people could have had access to that water cooler. Prosecutors noted that computer printouts indicated Diane's key card was used to get into the building at 10:18am on Saturday, March 22, two days before the murder. Investigators believe Lewis poisoned the water cooler at that time. So I'm assuming they checked into everything Diane said. No, I wasn't at the office on Saturday. Right. They would have had to have done all of that work.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And so therefore, they believe he took her key card, went to the office, got in, poisoned the water cooler. But according to the defense, Lewis was mowing a neighbor's lawn on that Saturday morning. He also made a phone call in West Phoenix a short time before the building was accessed in Tempe. So they're casting some doubt, and they're doing a fairly good job of it. Yes, they are, with what they have to work with. Diane Harry testified that she still believed in her husband's innocence. She confirmed that they started receiving threatening letters in January or February of 1986. The first letter was addressed to her in her maiden name and said that if she didn't tell her husband to leave the man's girlfriend alone, he was going to do something to him. When the letters continued, Lewis purchased a gun for her to carry. She didn't believe Lewis put the cyanide in her water. She asked him after his arrest if he had been to her office the Saturday before, but she couldn't remember his answer.

[Mike Gibson]

That's strange.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a little strange.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's a yes or no answer. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it seems like it would be something you'd remember. It'd be a big deal.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Diane completed her testimony by telling the court that a life insurance policy had lapsed before the poisoning, and she had a good relationship with her husband. She did admit that he didn't tell her he was having an affair or that he had gotten the woman pregnant.

[Mike Gibson]

And why would he?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. No. No reason for most men who are having an affair to confess that to their wife. It's not going to go over well. But I just want to talk about, you know, what does it do in the grand scheme of a trial when the defendant's wife, who the prosecution says was the target, is getting on the stand and saying that she believes he's innocent?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely going to hurt their case.

[Mike Ferguson]

And by this time. Right. She knew about the affair. She knew that he had gotten this woman pregnant. She obviously wasn't upset about it, to the point where she would get on the stand and try to blast him. Now, I'm sure she was upset about it, don't get me wrong. But not to that point where it made her believe that he would have tried to kill her.

[Mike Gibson]

But at the end of the day, the prosecutor. They're just trying to show that he killed Julie Williams.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's on trial for that murder now. They're also trying to show that he tried to kill Diane and a number of other people. Robert Allen Telenick, a laboratory technician at South Mountain Community College, testified that Lewis asked him about cyanide three weeks before the March 21 murder attempts.

[Mike Gibson]

Not good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not good for Louis.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Because. All right, some of this stuff you can kind of take as circumstantial. Maybe you can look at it that it would. It could go this way or the other way, but when someone testifies that you're asking them about cyanide three weeks before there's a cyanide poisoning that you're linked to.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

I would think that's going to hit the jury or the judge pretty hard.

[Mike Gibson]

It should. And it should register with his wife somewhat, too. Like, wait a minute. You asked somebody about this three weeks?

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, and I'm sure she's finding that out as the trial is happening. Yeah, as the. As it's being testified to, Louis told this guy that a friend was researching a report on the recent Tylenol murders. In that conversation and another conversation later that week, he pointed out to Louis that cyanide was readily available and told him where it could be purchased locally. Lewis also wanted to know how much cyanide was needed to kill someone.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a very detailed question and a damning one.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, right, I get it. Are there other uses for cyanide? Yeah, sure, Right. That's why it was available to purchase. But he didn't say, how much do I need to get rid of some pest problem? Or, you know, something like that. If he actually said or came out and said how much cyanide is needed to kill someone. All right, you're really not masking your intentions a whole lot there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, you can say I was just curious, just wanted to know. But I think most people would say that you want to know because you wanted to do what you did.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because why do you need to know that if you're not planning on killing someone with cyanide? Is that just a curiosity and it just happens to come, like, three weeks before someone is killed by cyanide? Now, There are coincidences and there are non coincidences. I guess I was trying to think of the other word you just wanted to say.

[Mike Gibson]

Quintessential.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wanted you to say it because I know it's a word that. That you do struggle with sometimes. So even though I said right, his defense is. Is doing a. An admirable job of trying to, you know, cast some reasonable doubt, there's still a lot that is really making this guy look guilty. A woman who worked at a chemical company testified that she sold about a pound of potassium cyanide to someone on March 7, but she didn't identify Louis as the customer. She wasn't permitted to do so because in an earlier court hearing, she identified someone else as the customer.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay. Kind of mysterious.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. But also maybe an error in his favor.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Did she make an honest mistake? Yeah, probably. But because of that, it was ruled that she couldn't then later say, no, it was him who bought the potassium cyanide. She could only say that she sold the pound of it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

To someone. And I think as a. As a juror, I don't know what you make of that.

[Mike Gibson]

It's hard to do anything with it, really. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, you could infer that that's where he got it from, but it would be a little bit of a stretch, I think. A handwriting expert testified that the signature on a receipt for the purchase of a pound of cyanide on March 7 was in Lewis's handwriting catalogs were also found in Lewis's office from the company where the cyanide was purchased. So now when you add that. Okay. Makes it a little easier. Right. It's his handwriting. His signature on the receipt for the cyanide. It must have been him.

[Mike Gibson]

But could someone forge his signature? His handwriting?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, possibly. But you have a handwriting expert.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So you have to take their testimony and weigh it like you would any testimony.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

How credible do you believe it is? Then the jury heard from a woman named Verbrae Ann Wooten, who testified that her former boyfriend, Roy Fitzpatrick, wrote threatening letters to Lewis and also threatened to poison him. She dated Fitzpatrick for about three weeks and tried to break things off with him, but he began harassing and threatening her. The harassment continued for five years, and Lewis helped her get an injunction against Fitzpatrick, but the harassment continued, according to Wooten. He would tell me what he did to women while he was in Vietnam and said that's what he would do to me if I ever dated someone else, she testified. He threatened to kill me, to kill Harry, and to tell Harry's wife about the affair. He also threatened to poison the SOB or set Harry on fire.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Little drastic. Yeah, but I want to go back to dated for three weeks.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then he harassed her for five years.

[Mike Gibson]

It's extreme, man.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, you shouldn't be harassing anyone. Right, but how does it come from a three week relationship?

[Mike Gibson]

Definitely couldn't let go, could he?

[Mike Ferguson]

No.

[Mike Gibson]

And there's probably women listeners right now saying, you know what? You'd be surprised how often that happens.

[Mike Ferguson]

How attached a man can get and not be able to let go. And I get it. And I'm sure it can happen the other way around as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you can flip it either way.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's hard for me to understand just because I've never been through something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Never been stalked.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no. No one's ever thought enough about me, I guess, to.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Stalk me after, actually. I was always the dumb b. I was never the dumper.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, you were the dumpy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I got dumped a lot, to be honest with you.

[Mike Gibson]

Really?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Back in the day. Especially in high school.

[Mike Gibson]

I can see why.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

No, I can't actually. You.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You.

[Mike Gibson]

You look like a. One of those high school models.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, when I was in high school, yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

So I'm surprised you got dumped.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think I was too nice.

[Mike Gibson]

Is that what it was?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, because I. I specifically remember getting dumped a lot. Like right after a big holiday where a gift was involved.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, so they didn't like your gift?

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, the gift was always nice.

[Mike Gibson]

They just wanted the gift.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe it was too much. Maybe that they thought it was coming on too strong. I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, we just been out. We've been going out for like a week. And you're like, I got you this diamond.

[Mike Ferguson]

Diamond. No, it wasn't anything like that. But yeah, I. I don't remember actually breaking up with a lot of people. I do remember getting broken up with.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah. Probably remember each one of those. Each. Each individual's name is probably on a list somewhere.

[Mike Ferguson]

It wasn't like we're talking a hundred. It wasn't that many.

[Mike Gibson]

You weren't. You weren't a player.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. I did also get married at the age of 22.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

said she met Lewis on January 20th. They began a relationship. He told her that he and his wife were going through a divorce. She became pregnant, but later miscarried.

[Mike Gibson]

The old, we're going through a divorce, it's okay that we're sleeping together and.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, pregnant. I don't think his wife knew anything about that part. I don't think so either, or the affair. Fitzpatrick followed Lewis from Wootton's apartment one night, found out where he lived. He also told Wooten that he knew Lewis's wife worked for Transamerica. In his testimony, Roy Fitzpatrick denied threatening Lewis or Verbray Wootton and said only that he and Wooten had arguments. He did read the threatening letters he admitted to sending Lewis and Diane. He admitted to writing four of the letters, but denied writing two others, including one that threatened to take something away from Louis. So this is a very interesting dynamic, right, this guy, Roy Fitzpatrick. Because I think if you're the defense attorney, you could make a strong argument that, you know, it wasn't Lewis who did this, it was Roy Fitzpatrick. Yeah, he knew where Louis's wife worked. He was trying to get back at Lewis, and he's the one who poisoned the water. And maybe he's the one who poisoned the scotch. Scotch. But also he seemed to be pretty honest on the stand. Right. He admitted to writing the four threatening letters, but denied writing the other two, which handwriting experts said Lewis wrote on legal pads that came from his office. And I think the other argument that could be made as far as Roy Fitzpatrick is concerned is did Louis use him? Right. Did he take the bottle of scotch to the detective? Because he had these threatening letters. And he could have said, hey, someone is trying to kill us. Someone is trying to poison us. And then he turns around and poisons the water supply, hoping that it would be blamed on Roy Fitzpatrick.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, that could have been the plan.

[Mike Ferguson]

Lewis got on the Stand and said he didn't remember ever being at the warehouse where police said the cyanide was purchased.

[Mike Gibson]

Again, I think it's a yes or no answer.

[Mike Ferguson]

I just don't remember it.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, either you were or you weren't.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't remember signing that receipt that a handwriting expert said was my signature. Yeah, I just don't remember it, Gibby. Now, I'm a very forgetful person. I will be the first one to admit that. I think though, if I were to make a purchase like cyanide. Yeah, that would probably stick with me, I don't think.

[Mike Gibson]

You're not going to recall that?

[Mike Ferguson]

No. Now it's not in his best interest to remember it though.

[Mike Gibson]

No, of course not.

[Mike Ferguson]

He also provided an alibi and explanations for the prosecution's circumstantial evidence, such as his fingerprints on coffee cups in the office, the letters in his handwriting and his conversation with a co worker about poison. He denied planning the office poisoning or trying to implicate Roy Fitzpatrick. He claimed his prince got on the coffee cups when he visited his wife at the office. So it's a big deal, right? He has to try to provide explanations for all this evidence, even the circumstantial evidence against him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, I get it. You know, you go to your wife's office, you open up the cupboard and you touch every coffee cup in there just because, you know, I feel like doing that right now. Maybe I. I don't like how they're in here. I moved them around, I placed them in their bedder, my fingerprints got on it. That's how it happened.

[Mike Ferguson]

The jury began deliberating on December 16, 1986. On the 17th, Lewis Allen Harry Jr. Was found guilty of first degree murder and four counts of attempted murder. Two members of the jury told the Arizona Republic that the security card and the signature on the receipt for Sinai were among the most convincing evidence. And I get that. I mean, those are some of the stronger pieces, right? There's a lot of circumstantial evidence in this case. So I could see why. Maybe the jury would gravitate towards these two things. You know, if she, Diane is saying, well, I didn't go to the office on Saturday, but her card was used. Well, who else in the household would have access to that card? Is it possible that somebody came in and stole it? Yeah, I guess technically, right, in as far as anything is possible. But it's more likely that her husband, who could have easily taken it out of her purse or wherever it was, used it and then, you know, to me, the signature on this receipt for Sinai is such a big one, because he didn't say, yeah, I bought the cyanide, but I plan to use it for X. Or I did use it for X. He said, I don't remember being at the warehouse buying this cyanide, which is

[Mike Gibson]

so strange because you would know if you were or not. Especially a pound of cyanide. Come on, just now, at this point, just have the balls and say, I didn't want to be married to her anymore.

[Mike Ferguson]

I didn't.

[Mike Gibson]

I didn't want to go through a divorce either. I just wanted her out of the picture so I could be with this other woman that I thought was having my baby.

[Mike Ferguson]

But nobody does that.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, some people do. Most people don't. Right. They fight to the bitter end because they cling to that chance that they're going to get off. Right. That a jury is going to acquit them. You don't want to give up.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Juror Dale Griffin said defense attorney Richard Steiner made a mistake when he told Lewis to look at the jurors and tell them he was innocent. Griffin said, not one of us felt he really looked us straight in the eye. And he had this funny look in his eye when he said it.

[Mike Gibson]

1. Why would I think it's a terrible thing to ask your client to do? Because you can only look one person in the eye at a time when you're going to go, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it, I didn't do it.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's because to each one of them,

[Mike Gibson]

yeah, it's just awkward. And, you know, even if you really didn't do it, you might not have the way of saying it that people would believe you. So why even put it. Put the chance out there?

[Mike Ferguson]

Mean, like, you're not a convincing person or something like that. Yeah, I get it. Julie's daughter, Nancy Brady, said that at first she thought Lewis was innocent, but as the evidence mounted, she changed her mind. And I think it would be hard for that not to happen. Yeah, right. I do think in a lot of situations, family members, at first, I mean, they start out kind of taking the side of their loved one because who wants to believe that, you know, a family member would commit this type of, you know, heinous act? But then as all the evidence starts to roll out in the trial, at some point, do you just say, oh, my gosh, I even think he did it?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, and so I think that can happen with people. On February 12, 1987, Lewis was sentenced to life in prison. The judge said that putting poison into the water cooler showed complete stupidity and senselessness. He described Lewis as sociopathic. It's kind of hard to argue with any of that. Yeah, it's stupid. It's senseless.

[Mike Gibson]

It's kind of like that guy that put the bleach in the water to try to clean it out. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, I really am shocked that you revealed that on the podcast. But we have talked about it, right? I think we've all done things in the past that, you know, at the time you didn't think was that big a deal. You look back on it with a. An older perspective, and you're like, what in the hell was I thinking?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, why did.

[Mike Ferguson]

I could have killed somebody.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm also saying, hey, the guy that got. Got his cup full of that. Maybe smell what you drink before you actually put it in your mouth.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and I did want to talk about that. I think maybe you've seen me do it. I do smell my food.

[Mike Gibson]

You do.

[Mike Ferguson]

And a lot of people have pointed out people that eat with me. It can look a little strange, but it's not like a true crime thing. It's not like. I don't know why, it's almost like. I don't think it's a nervous tick, but it's something I've done since I was a kid. I always smell my food before I put it in my mouth.

[Mike Gibson]

You also do that thing that Robert from Everybody Loves Raymond does.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, Put it on my chin.

[Mike Gibson]

You touch your chin, then you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Then I smell it, and then I put it in my mouth. So Louis received consecutive terms of 21, 28, 28, and 28 years for attempted murder and a life sentence for murder.

[Mike Gibson]

He's not going anywhere.

[Mike Ferguson]

He would be required to serve 2/3 of each sentence for attempted murder and 25 years for murder, meaning he would have to serve 95 total years in prison.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So you're right. He's not going anywhere.

[Mike Gibson]

He's going. He'll die in prison.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't think he should go anywhere. If you're willing to do something like this, first of all kill your wife, but then also take the chance of a number of other people dying. And one person did die, you don't deserve to walk with the rest of them.

[Mike Gibson]

He does not.

[Mike Ferguson]

At a pre sentencing hearing, Lewis asked the judge to spare the death penalty and let him work on his case so that he Might be vindicated someday. The judge imposed the maximum sentences and made them concurrent because of aggravating factors. He said twice the defendant tried to poison his loyal wife. When he poisoned the water, he had to know that anyone who drank it could or would die. The cold, calculated scheme to poison his wife shows a heinous state of mind.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So that's why. Right. He has to do 95 years in prison because they were made concurrent.

[Mike Gibson]

And to think, man, his wife was so dedicated to him, like, she didn't want to believe that he did this.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't know what she feels today if she's still alive. There wasn't a lot of information about either him or her.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

As time went on, because obviously this happened almost 40 years ago. But as we wrap this one up, you know, in his attempts to kill his wife, Lewis poisoned an innocent woman. And like we said.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

His wife Diane defended him until the very end and even helped pay for his defense attorney.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

But ultimately, the jury believed the prosecution's evidence, which showed clear planning and intention and a disregard of the lives of not only his wife, but everyone who worked in the office that day.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Again, willing to kill her and others so he could be with somebody else that probably didn't want to be with him the way that he thought.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and it also had to be about money as well.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

We mentioned the life insurance policies, but here's a guy whose wife was making quite a bit more than he was.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I think this is a situation where he could have left the marriage. He could have filed for divorce and maybe not have had to pay her a bunch of money in alimony or something like that because she made a lot more money than he did.

[Mike Gibson]

It might have worked out just fine

[Mike Ferguson]

for him, but he didn't want that. He wanted the life insurance money.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he wanted to be able to be with someone else. And that is often the case.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. It's. It's lust, it's greed kind of all mixed together.

[Mike Gibson]

Don't take the shortcut, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. It may be painful. It might not be the easiest thing in the world, but if you don't want to be with someone, just tell them you don't want to be with them.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, you know, start life new and go that route. Don't hurt someone because you think it's going to be easier and you're going to be better off. You're going to get money and this and that. No, what you're going to do is spend the rest of your life in jail.

[Mike Gibson]

That's right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And in the case of Louis, kill an innocent woman. Yeah, and his wife was innocent, too. If she had died, she would have been innocent as well. But this. This woman he killed was completely innocent. She had nothing to do with any of this. No, she wasn't even involved. She just happened to work at the same place his wife did.

[Mike Gibson]

And clearly he didn't care.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. No, he didn't care. But that's it for our episode on Julie Williams. We got a voicemail. Gibbs, you want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. Here.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, guys, it's Claire from Tasmania, Australia. I've been listening to you guys since probably when the Menendez brothers were a bit, you know, in the news and stuff. So I found your podcast, and then I have literally been shared since I'm up to date on newer stuff, but the older stuff I'm now going back through, so it's currently 6:30am And I listen to you guys while I have a coffee and get ready for work. I had just Matthew Breck episode, and you were talking about the fanny packs that we call bum bags here in Australia, talking about them being glittered. And Gibby said that he could wear them so he could put his singles in it when they were up on the stage. And I choked on my coffee. It was hilarious. I quite often get the gills about YouTube. Um, you have your banter, and that's what I absolutely love about the podcast. It's something so different. It makes it so easy to listen to. And my partner often says, why are you laughing? It's, you know, start serial killers and stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but these two dudes, they are just the funniest buggers ever. I am Team Gibby. Sorry, Peggy, but I just relate to Gibby so much. Not on the men's level, but on the absolute. Words get muddled up and you just make. Make everyone giggle. And that's why I really like to give you so much. So I appreciate what you guys do. Love you guys so much. Hopefully I hear my voicemail soon, and I probably will sound very obvious to you. So keep your head on the field, dudes, and keep your own time ticking. Absolutely. Love you both. Bye.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, great. Voicemail all the way from Tasmania.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. You know what's down there?

[Mike Ferguson]

Were you trained to do an accent Right there, Mike?

[Mike Gibson]

You know what's down there, Mike?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, y'.

[Ryan Reynolds]

All.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know what that was. What's down there?

[Mike Gibson]

They got those devils.

[Mike Ferguson]

Tasmanian devils.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay, that. That that accent's morphing in and out.

[Mike Gibson]

Razor lights. Razor blades. What'd that guy say? Don't get me to say razor blades or razor lights. Riser lights. Rise of lights.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, rise of lights.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, right.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's rise up Lights.

[Mike Gibson]

Rise of blades. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It sounds like razor blood. Oh, my goodness, man, you cracked me up, too. So I'm team Gibby, for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm team her, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Gibson]

We.

[Mike Ferguson]

We appreciate the voicemail pretty much. And the kudos.

[Mike Gibson]

Love it.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time. Ticking.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Sam.