Lawrence Harris Sr.

Summary

True Crime All The Time – Episode 518: Lawrence Harris Sr.
Release Date: July 27, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson dive deep into the chilling 2008 case of Lawrence Harris Sr., who killed his two young stepdaughters in Sioux City, Iowa. The case explores Harris’ claims that the deaths occurred during a “ritual gone bad,” the complicated intersections of religion, mental illness, and family dysfunction, and the ramifications for the surviving family.

The hosts offer their signature mix of empathy, dark humor, and thoughtful analysis, steering listeners through the disturbing facts—while unpacking broader themes around motive, mental health, and the dangers of magical thinking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background on the Family and Harris’ History

• The Meeting: Marla Stroman, a single mother with three children, met Lawrence Harris Sr. at a Minnesota group home where she worked. Harris, seven years younger and a recovering addict, gradually bonded with Marla over single parenthood.

• Early Signs: Harris had a troubled past—drug abuse, brushes with the law, and a fractured relationship with his own son.

• Forming a Family: Larry moved in with Marla, became a hands-on stepfather, and regained custody of his own son with her encouragement. Despite past struggles, the family appeared happy on the surface.

  “He was very loving, very attentive, and he does get his son back. So…maybe you give him the benefit of the doubt.” – Mike Ferguson (08:20)

• Religious Differences: Marla was Christian; Harris identified as Pagan, later showing interest in Wicca and then Satanism after acquiring a copy of the Satanic Bible. Marla grew uncomfortable with his rituals, particularly after he began self-harming and using occult symbols at home.

  “If I’m in a relationship with someone and they're drawing symbols and, you know, drawing their own blood…we may have to part ways.” – Mike Ferguson (14:38)

2. Escalating Mental Health and Family Tensions

• Relocation: The family moved to Iowa for practical reasons, but underlying tensions persisted due to religious differences and Larry’s worsening mental health.

• Untreated Bipolar Disorder: Harris, previously medicated, stopped taking his medication in mid-2007. Marital disputes escalated as a result, including themes of jealousy and paranoia.

  “He had to take medication and attend counseling with her or she would leave him.” – Mike Ferguson (23:25)

• Red Flags: Larry threatened Marla, ominously stating, “I could hurt you in the worst possible way without even touching you.” (24:44)
  Both hosts frame this as deeply troubling and possibly foreshadowing the tragedy.

3. Day of the Crime and Immediate Aftermath

• Timeline of Events:

  • Marla worked a double shift on Jan 6, 2008.
  • Larry stayed home with the children.
  • At 4:19pm, police responded to a fire at the home—called in anonymously by Lawrence, who was found with blood on his hands, claiming, “they died while I was casting a spell and it went bad.” (25:12)

• Crime Scene: The bodies of Kendra (10) and Alicia (8) were found; both died of asphyxiation, Alicia by strangulation with a belt. The fire was determined to be intentionally set, likely as a cover-up.

  “When you find out that, you know, at least one of the girls was choked to death with a belt… I don't know how the spell gone wrong plays into that.” – Mike Ferguson (27:23)

• Forensic Evidence:

  • Harris had the girls’ DNA on his hands, shoes, and a knife.
  • Ritual objects linked to Satanism were found on-site, matching instructions from the Satanic Bible.

• Family Devastation:

  • Marla, devastated, replayed “what ifs” after learning the news (28:48).
  • The hosts express deep empathy for her pain.

4. Motive: Revenge or Insanity?

• Prosecution’s Argument: Harris killed the girls to punish Marla for a suspected affair, reinforcing this with his earlier threat to her.

• Defense’s Argument: Attempted to establish insanity due to dissociative states and longstanding mental illness, but faced skepticism due to evidence Harris may have been faking symptoms.

  “His responses were… relatively common among individuals feigning mental disorder.” – Mike Ferguson (51:22)

• Satanic Rituals in Court: Debate over allowing references to Satanism and the Satanic Bible, with the defense fearing jury prejudice and the prosecution arguing it showed premeditation. Judge ultimately considered the evidence pivotal.

  “Much more chess than checkers, in my opinion.” – Mike Ferguson (48:01)

5. Trial, Verdict, and Reflections

• Trial Highlights:

  • Harris claimed he’d cast a spell “to straighten out [his] teenage stepson,” that backfired and led to the deaths (54:30).
  • Video evidence showed him demonstrating rituals, remaining evasive about key details (e.g., the belt used in the murder).
  • Forensic testimony detailed both girls’ injuries, pointing to clear manual actions not explainable by “spells.”

• Verdict: Larry Harris Sr. was found guilty on two counts of first degree murder, receiving two life sentences.

  “Did he have some mental health problems? Yeah. Does it help when you're prescribed medication but you don't take it? No…But I think at the end of the day, this was more about trying to get back at his wife.” – Mike Ferguson (69:55)

  "He can hide behind whatever he wants to hide behind, but in the end, what Larry did was horrific." – Mike Gibson (63:09)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Harris' Claims:

  “I didn’t do this on purpose. I didn’t mean for this to happen.” – Harris to Marla (60:32)

• Host Reactions:

  “It just doesn't make sense, man…Even if you believed in some of this stuff…how does one of the girls get strangled with a cloth belt?” – Mike Ferguson (56:25)

  “I think Larry Harris Sr. is exactly where he deserves to be.” – Mike Ferguson (71:23)

• On the Satanic Panic Angle:

  “People have a certain connotation…they also might lump all those things together…The defense was trying very hard to get any reference to Satanism [excluded].” – Mike Ferguson (39:19, 46:24)

• Empathy for Marla:

  "Those are the worst questions that you ask yourself." – Mike Gibson (28:48)

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Critical Timestamps

• [04:11] – Introduction to Harris, family background
• [13:12] – Escalating occult interests and rituals
• [23:25] – Marital tension, mental health ultimatum
• [24:44] – Harris' threat to Marla: “I could hurt you in the worst possible way…”
• [25:12] – The crime: Harris’ 911 call and “spell gone bad” claim
• [27:23] – Disclosure that girls were strangled, not supernatural causes
• [39:19] – Legal wrangling: Satanism as part of the trial
• [54:30] – Harris’ spell story in police interviews
• [60:32] – Harris’ statement to Marla: “I didn’t do this on purpose...”
• [63:09] – Forensic findings and hosts’ moral reflections
• [69:55] – Hosts summarize motives, verdict, and justice

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Conclusion & Tone

Throughout, the hosts balance their thoughtful, at times irreverent, tone (“You ever cast a love spell?” – Ferguson, 13:11) with deep empathy for the victims and sharp skepticism toward Harris’ defenses. They repeatedly return to the absurdity of Harris’ magical thinking as a criminal cover and the horror of his actions. In the end, Ferguson and Gibson agree the verdict fits the crime and express hope that Harris remains behind bars for the rest of his life.

Final Thought:
This episode is a sobering exploration of how deception, mental illness, and belief in the occult can intersect with devastating outcomes—and how justice can still prevail.

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Further Listening:
Listeners interested in the complexities of mental health defenses, occult crime, and family annihilators will find this episode deeply informative and haunting. The hosts’ blend of seriousness and levity makes the intense subject matter approachable without diminishing its gravity.

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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[Mike Gibson]

Sam Foreign

[Mike Ferguson]

and Welcome to episode 518 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, I'm doing good. How about you man?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing excellente.

[Mike Gibson]

Excellente.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. Okay, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Nicole Massey.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Nicole.

[Mike Ferguson]

Michelle McGowan.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, thanks McGowan.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jody Reynolds.

[Mike Gibson]

What's up Reynolds?

[Mike Ferguson]

Mel Samper.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Mel.

[Mike Ferguson]

Anthony Jones jumped out at her highest level.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, hey Jay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Thank you, Alex. Texas Wit.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, hey wit.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Cindy Wagner Douglas, cwd. And then if we go back into the vault this week we selected Kim Morris.

[Mike Gibson]

The Kim Morris. The. Yes, Kim Morris. We love it.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we have a plethora of episodes out right now.

[Mike Gibson]

Plethora.

[Mike Ferguson]

A plethora.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

On Saturday night we dropped a new Patreon episode on Maria Jose Alvarado Munoz. And she was a Honduran TV model. She won the 2014 Miss World Honduras.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But just months after that title, she and her sister were tragically murdered. So if you're a Patreon supporter, make sure you check that one out. We also have a new episode out right now on Unsolved where we're Talking about the 2010 death of 26 year old model Paula Sladowski. She was found in a burning dumpster in Miami.

[Mike Gibson]

Florida. Yeah. It made big news back then.

[Mike Ferguson]

It did. And it's a very fascinating episode. And then on Thursday's Tea Cat, we're talking about a Scottish case of Caroline Muirhead. She met a Gamekeeper named Sandy McKellar on Tinder in 2020. She thought he was the one.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But he made a shocking admission that caused her to have to make a what people have described as an impossible choice. So not giving too much away. It's pretty fascinating.

[Mike Gibson]

Make sure you listen to that one.

[Mike Ferguson]

Absolutely. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am so ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Lawrence Harris Sr. In January 2008, Lawrence Harris Sr. Called the police to report a fire at his home. Inside, authorities found the bodies of his 8 and 10 year old stepdaughters. Lawrence claimed the girls died during a ritual that had gone bad.

[Mike Gibson]

Gone bad.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we're going to unpack all of it. In September 2005, Marla Stroman was a single mother of a son and two daughters, Kendra and Alicia Sewing. Marla was working as a personal care attendant at a group home in Alexandria, Minnesota. It was here that she met Lawrence Harris Sr. Lawrence, who went by the nickname Larry, was living in the home with his infant son and had been sober for six months after a history of drug abuse. Larry, who was seven years younger than Marla, was born in Upland, California. He had contact with law enforcement in California, but he was never actually arrested there. Marla also had a few minor brushes with the law in Woodbury County, Iowa, including marijuana possession in 2002.

[Mike Gibson]

We all have a little bit of brushes with the law.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, to varying degrees, I would say. You know what's interesting though, is when you say, you know, someone got busted for marijuana possession in 2002. In most places today, it wouldn't even be a crime.

[Mike Gibson]

It would not.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's. It's kind of interesting to look at marijuana in particular over the years.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And how it's been treated. According to the Sioux City Journal, Larry and his ex wife used meth and marijuana. His ex wife left the family, and Larry was trying to learn to be a better parent for his son. At the group home, Larry reached out to Marla with parenting questions. They gradually started talking more. Marla recalled to the Sioux City Journal. We would take the kids for walks and just talk. We could sit there and talk about anything and everything. He understood what being a single parent was about. It's fascinating to, you know, kind of dive into how people meet, what draws them Together. You know, a lot of times, it's common interests or a common situation. This seems to be, you know, two single parents bonding over that. But Marla quickly fell in love with Larry. A month later, Larry moved out of the foster home and. And moved in with Marla in Sock Center, Minnesota. You ever heard of Sock Center?

[Mike Gibson]

It's where all the socks are made.

[Mike Ferguson]

I have never heard of that, ever.

[Mike Gibson]

It's the sock capital of the world. Is it? I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not spelled the same, but we'll go with it.

[Mike Gibson]

I was just trying to. You know.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to Marla, Larry felt that he couldn't parent his son properly in the setting the foster home offered, so he let his son return to a previous foster home.

[Caller]

All right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Difficult decision.

[Mike Gibson]

Big, tough decision.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, was that the right thing for his son? Maybe. I don't know. But I do know that's a tough decision for a parent.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, he could also be making that because he doesn't want to be burdened and he wants to pursue this new relationship with Marla.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you hate to say that, but that could be true, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could be. While he was living with Marla, Larry volunteered to watch her children so she wouldn't have to leave them with a babysitter he would play with and read to the children, take them to the park and walk them to school. He tucked them in at night and told them he loved him. Because Larry was so great with kids, Marla encouraged him to regain custody of his son, and she even helped him with the process. Within a year, Larry's son was back in the household. So, I mean, I don't know. Obviously, Larry had some issues. Yeah, right. With drugs at one point. But it sure sounds, at least from Marla, that, you know, he was a pretty good dad to her kids. He was very loving, very attentive, and he does get his son back. So, you know, maybe you give him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, he was doing what he thought was best back then at the time, and now he's in a better place, and, you know, he wants his son back with him.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, they seem to be happy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So happy that they got married in July 2006. Marla recalled that they hardly ever fought, and the children seemed happy.

[Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hardly ever fought. The children are happy. The relationship's pretty good, I guess. You know, what else can you ask for?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, when you hear things like that, you think. And that's the perfect recipe for a successful marriage.

[Mike Ferguson]

No fighting and everybody happy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'D say it's not a bad recipe. But according to the Sioux City Journal, authorities in Sauk Center, Minnesota, responded to two or three minor incidents at the family's home.

[Caller]

And.

[Mike Ferguson]

But the details of the incidents were not reported. Now, you could say, okay, a minor incident or minor incidents. What could they be? They could be anything. What I will say is that the police have never been called to my home for any type of incident.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I don't know what that means. I don't know what people's experiences are. You know, what's your experience? What. What are people thinking right now as they listen to me talk about this? Are they saying, no? No, we've had some incidents. Police had to come out, neighbors call because we were too loud. Right. Something dumb like that. But two or three incidents. Okay, what were they all about? And we don't know because we just don't have the details.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I had a couple neighbors back in the day that police were out there. It seemed almost twice a week.

[Mike Ferguson]

And to me, that's not normal. No, that is abnormal. Now, they were there to take complaints against you or to make complaints against you. You're leaving that part out?

[Mike Gibson]

I didn't think we need to go into details.

[Mike Ferguson]

Marla and Larry had different religious beliefs. She was Christian, and Larry told her he was pagan. Marla explained to the Sioux City Journal that Larry's religious beliefs were related to Wicca. Now, she was aware of his religious beliefs, but she knew very little about Wicca. And that came from other family members who were also pagan. And I'm telling you, when I hear the words Wicca, pagan, things like that, it always draws me back to the West Memphis three.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And the whole, you know, satanic angle versus Wicca, the argument that, you know, Wicca is not satanic, it's about nature and this and that. I forget exactly what it is, but, yeah, I don't know. You hear certain things and it just draws you or takes you back to something that you've seen before, you've heard before. And for me, it takes me back to that case and the documentary.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yep, you're right. I mean, there was a growth in the Wicca community a few years ago. I mean, I remember seeing it online and people, you know, talking about how, you know, they were Wicca, and it has something to do with the moon and witches and. And all that kind of stuff.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a great synopsis.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

So when you say a few years ago, do you mean 2 or 3 or 20?

[Mike Gibson]

No, I mean, like 7, 8.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because a few. The word a few.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Commercial Narrator]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or the term a few is very subjective.

[Mike Gibson]

It can be.

[Mike Ferguson]

To me, a few is. I don't know, three, four. Yeah, but okay, seven, eight. I'm not aware because you know me, I'm not on social media. I don't pay attention to social media.

[Mike Gibson]

I was gonna go six, seven, but six, seven. It'll drive all the parents crazy to have kids that say, six, seven, six, seven.

[Mike Ferguson]

The fact that two guys in their 50s or one who's now 60.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, thanks for bringing it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Knows about it. Just shows you the kind of universality universe. No, that's not even a word. But it shows you the proliferation of it.

[Mike Gibson]

It is a word of my vocabulary.

[Mike Ferguson]

I pulled a gibby. Marla thought Larry was casting love spells, which apparently Wiccans used to do. Good. Marla asked Larry not to cast spells when the children were home because it was against their beliefs. Love spells. You ever cast a love spell?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

All the time.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably time. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She told the Sioux City Journal. I didn't want them getting curious, but I guess he didn't follow my instructions. I knew that paganism isn't for harming people. Larry's behavior changed after he got a copy of the Satanic Bible, which is the foundational text of Anton lavey's Church of Satan. He asked her to read it. Marla read the first two pages and told Larry she didn't like it because it contradicted the Bible. Now, I do think big difference probably between Wicca and lavey's Church of Satan.

[Mike Gibson]

I would have to agree with that.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know everything about either one. But Larry brought red, white, and black candles into the home. He drew a Sigil of Baphomet in crayon on a dresser and used a kitchen knife to draw his blood. He went into the woods to cast spells and returned with cuts on his hands. Larry's behavior scared Marla, and she tried to stay away from it. I'm going to tell you right now, if I'm in a relationship with someone and they're drawing symbols and, you know, drawing their own blood and we may have to part ways is probably my. My thinking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It just doesn't seem like something that I really want inside the home. First of all, why are you drawing in crayon on my good dresser?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

And there's blood all over the place. You're traipsing it in and out of the house.

[Mike Gibson]

Could there be a more neat way of doing this?

[Mike Ferguson]

But Also, it was clearly said, right, she's Christian now, he's into like some of this satanic stuff. How is that gonna mesh?

[Mike Gibson]

I don't think it can mesh. Right. It's just polar opposites.

[Mike Ferguson]

In the spring of 2007, the family moved to Sioux City, Iowa, Marla's hometown, because the owner of the home they were living in put the house up for sale. So they're still together. And as much as some of this behavior scared her, she said she tried to stay away from it. But how much can you really, if you're living with someone day in and day out? The Sioux City Journal reported that in 2007, Marla's 13 year old son was convicted of second degree criminal sexual conduct in a location outside Iowa and became a registered sex offender. The victim was a girl, 13 or younger. Tough. It is tough to be a registered sex offender at the age of 13. But obviously, and we don't have all the details, what this kid did was,

[Mike Gibson]

was pretty bad to have to go on that list.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Marla worked at a residential facility and Larry worked at the local Walmart. 10 year old Kendra and 8 year old Alicia were students at the local elementary school. Alicia was in the third grade and Kendra was in the fifth grade. Family members said that both girls enjoyed going to the park, swimming, roller skating and baking. Kendra liked playing computer games, listening to music and writing short stories. One of her favorite book genres was anime. She was learning Japanese and dreamed of visiting Japan one day. Kendra was also an animal lover and wanted to be a vet when she grew up. I think a lot of kids nowadays are into this anime.

[Mike Gibson]

You're into it. You got anime books and posters.

[Mike Ferguson]

I do not.

[Mike Gibson]

Right there. Anime. No.

[Mike Ferguson]

No anime in my lineup whatsoever. But you know, some of the guys that I play Xbox with. Yeah, they're always talking about these anime cartoon shows that they watch and they're really into them. And these are adults. These aren't.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Kids.

[Caller]

Right?

[Mike Gibson]

Isn't Pokemon anime?

[Mike Ferguson]

I guess technically, yeah.

[Caller]

I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

The ones they talk about are all like demons and things like that.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, well, it's what you grow up on, right? It's what they probably grew up on.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe. I have no idea.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

One of Alicia's favorite hobbies was drawing. And she had decided she wanted to be a teacher. Those who knew the girls said they were sweet and fun loving. Their neighborhood in Sioux City didn't have many children, but neighbor Marie White did have a 10 year old daughter who often played with Kendra. White recalled that Kendra liked playing with her dogs. And the last time she saw Kendra, she was bringing cookies to her home on Christmas house. It's kind of sweet.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I love it when people visit and bring cookies.

[Mike Ferguson]

Alicia's teacher, Jenny Hickman recalled that Alicia could read at a fifth grade level at the beginning of second grade. But what stood out the most was how she always wanted to help her classmates. Alicia finished her assignments so quickly that she often helped other students with their work.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds so much like me in my younger days.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. Don't know how you got held back so many times when your reading was so advanced and all your other skills were so acutely honed.

[Mike Gibson]

I think it's because the teacher wanted me to stay back so I Can teach the next round of students coming in to help her out.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that does make a lot of sense.

[Mike Gibson]

It really does.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's almost like having a full time student teacher.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

At home, tension was building between Larry and Marla. To Marla's knowledge, Larry didn't cast spells at their home in Sioux City until the day of the murders. So we talked about it, right? How is this relationship working when he's kind of getting into some of the satanic stuff? He's casting spells that involve drawing your blood with sharp instruments. And she is said to be Christian. Well, now we know that she wasn't aware that he was doing any of this while they were in Iowa. So maybe he just kept it hidden.

[Mike Gibson]

He must have. I mean, how upset would you be to find out that your partner, your spouse, was doing things that you said very specifically not to do? I don't want you practicing this in the house.

[Mike Ferguson]

You mean like a partner saying, I specifically don't want you to cheat on me?

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then that person goes out and cheats on them, they're going to be pretty upset.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely. Yeah. And I'd be like, hey, if you're going to practice that stuff, isn't there a way to practice it to make sure that, like, because you haven't cut the grass in two weeks, can you

[Mike Ferguson]

just, like, practice it while you cut

[Mike Gibson]

the grass or whatever, whoever you're praying to make them come out and cut the grass? You know, like, tomorrow we wake up, the grass is cut. I mean, can that happen? You know, maybe.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know how it works, man. From the outside, though, neighbors thought Larry seemed like an attentive father. But family members said he was socially awkward around people he didn't know and talked incessantly to those he did okay. Marla told the Sioux City Journal that Larry was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. He stopped taking his medication in June 2007. After that, they fought often about things like disciplining the kids, the dishes, or the laundry. When Marla went out with her friends, who were mostly male, Larry thought she was being unfaithful. She often took the kids or female friends with her to put him at ease.

[Mike Gibson]

Do you remember at one time I was telling you, oh, we had a little argument about the laundry, and you said, I'll tell you how to take care of that, Mike. You said, do the laundry.

[Mike Ferguson]

Mess it up completely really good. I do remember that.

[Mike Gibson]

And you never have to do it again.

[Mike Ferguson]

That has worked out for me for about 33 years now. I haven't done Laundry in a very long time because I messed, you know, a number of loads up.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it was great advice.

[Mike Ferguson]

So what Marla did was she gave Larry an ultimatum. He had to take medication and attend counseling with her or she would leave him. She didn't want to get divorced, but she didn't want the kids to see them fighting anymore.

[Mike Gibson]

And what they were fighting over was pretty trivial, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, yeah, laundry, dishes. But isn't it the trivial stuff that a lot of us often fight over?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now how much of this, though, was Larry and his bipolar disorder and then him not taking his medication for it? Yeah, you got to factor that in. After Thanksgiving, Larry saw a doctor about his mental health. The doctor wanted to do more tests before prescribing medication, but Larry never made a follow up appointment. In December 2007, about two weeks before the murders, Larry told Marla he could hurt her in the worst possible way without even touching her. She was alarmed, but believed the comment was the result of Larry's anger about the ultimatum. Okay, alarmed, you know, maybe you should have emotions that exceed that. To me, that's a little bit more than just alarming. Yeah, that's scary.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of threatening.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not kind of.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

I can hurt you in the worst possible way without even touching. At 4:19pm on January 6, 2008, the Sioux City police and fire departments responded to an anonymous report of a fire at the family's home. Investigators later determined that Larry was the one who called 91 1, but he didn't identify himself to the operator. First responders arrived at the scene and found Larry, who had blood on his hands. He indicated the girls were dead in their bedroom upstairs. He said they died while he was casting a spell that had gone bad and that could have had severe consequences. Okay. First responders see all kinds of strange and horrific things. This is horrific in the fact that two young girls lost their lives. But it's also extremely strange when they encounter this guy outside, he's got blood on his hands, and he's talking about the fact that he cast a spell that went wrong.

[Mike Gibson]

It's gonna land kind of strange, I think, right? I mean, you're, hey, guys, I tried to do a spell. It didn't land the right way. Unfortunately, two girls died. I mean, they're gonna look at him,

[Mike Ferguson]

be like, what are you talking about?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Authorities determined the fire started in the basement of the home and only caused superficial damage to the structure. Larry told police about a spell notebook in his bedroom closet. It contained drawings from the book Pagan Ways, references from the occult fiction book Necronomicon and page numbers corresponding to the Satanic Bible, including one specific spell. Larry also told the police he was possessed by Kali, the Hindu goddess of

[Mike Gibson]

time and change, or so he believed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I wasn't assuming he was actually possessed by Kali, the goddess of time and change, but to me, this is really going back to him not taking his medication for sure. Yeah, I just can't believe that that was good in any form or fashion. Police confirm that marla and her 13 year old son were not home when the murders occurred, But Larry's three year old son was in the home. Medical examiners determined that Kendra died from asphyxiation and Alicia died from asphyxiation as a consequence of strangulation with a neck fracture. She was strangled with a cloth belt. On January 7, 2008, Larry was charged with two counts of first degree murder. Sioux City Police Chief Joe Frisbee said, you're talking about people casting spells. Spells gone bad. Obviously there's a lot more going on here than a straightforward homicide. Also, when you find out that, you know, at least one of the girls was choked to death with a belt. Okay. I don't know how the spell gone wrong plays into that. Yeah, now maybe we're going to get into it a little more here. But Chief Frisbee also noted that arson is often used to cover up other crimes, but they didn't know yet if that was Larry's intent. Friends and families helped Marla move out of the home shortly after the murders. She said she could no longer live there, Telling kmegtv, all I can keep asking is what? And I keep saying, what if I would have come home earlier from work? What if I would have let them stay with their grandmothers? Would they still be alive?

[Mike Gibson]

Man, those are the worst questions that you ask yourself.

[Mike Ferguson]

And how could you not have those types of what if questions after something like this happens? What if I'd have done this? What if I hadn't done this? What if I had done something different? Would they still be alive? And that's just got to eat it. A person. On January 8, the Sioux City Journal published an interview with Kerry Gordon, associate pastor at Cornerstone World Outreach, who said Kendra and Alicia might have given hints in the summer of 2007 that Larry was performing rituals at the family home. The sisters previously attended the church's children's ministry. After one summer lesson about the church's view on the sinfulness of practicing witchcraft, they bombarded a bus driver with questions. According to Gordon, the kids were Pelting our bus captain with questions constantly all the way home about that issue. Why is it wrong? Our bus captain got the creepy feeling that they obviously had a lot of weird stuff going on in their house. After that lesson. The girls didn't return to the program until the final session in November. And my thought is, yeah, it would seem strange, but what could you really do with that information? You know, it's not like they confided in this bus driver that they were being abused or something like that. That would be an actionable item for sure. This is just a little strange, right? Why is this witchcraft thing so wrong? I don't know. It's something that you would call CPS over?

[Mike Gibson]

No, I don't think so either. I mean, if anything, you might go back and talk to the minister of the church and be like, hey, these girls were asking some strange questions about witchcraft.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it seems to me that the pastor was aware of it. Now. At what point in time was he aware of it? That we don't know. This could have come out. After the kids died on January 9, Marla told the Sioux City Journal she still didn't know what happened on the day of the killings. A year later in January 2009, Marla did an in depth interview with the Sioux City Journal recounting the day of the murders and and how she found out about the tragic loss of her daughters. She said she got up at 4:30am on January 6, 2008 and got ready to go to work. She was going to put in a double shift and Larry would watch the kids. The girls were sleeping in their shared bedroom. Marla's 13 year old son and Larry's son were also sleeping. As she prepared to leave, Larry kissed her and told her he loved her. She clocked in shortly before her 5:30 shift started. She went about her normal morning duties. At 1:30pm she suddenly got the sense that something was wrong and asked to go home. But they were already short staffed that day. Marla realized she hadn't received any texts from Larry, who usually sent between 50 and 100 texts a day.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a lot of text messages.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is.

[Caller]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean that is a month for me that if, if. But there's a couple of things here. Yes, that's a lot of tax. Don't know what they were normally about, but some people just love the text back and forth. I get that. But this idea that, you know, Marla had what we have talked about previously as kind of a mother's intuition, it definitely seems like she had something like that. Something's not right. I need to get home. Unfortunately, she couldn't leave because they were short staffed. She texted Larry during her 4:15pm Break but received no response. Then Marla got a call from her cousin reporting fire trucks outside her home. She called Larry again but he still didn't answer. She asked to leave work and called Larry again. As she was leaving him a voicemail, someone called her from Larry's phone and left a message. All Marla could hear was Larry swearing in the background. Moments later, a police dispatcher called Marla's workplace and told her there was a fire at her house. She called Larry as she drove home. This time a police officer answered and told her she needed to come home. Man, I can't even imagine a scenario like that where you're feeling like something is wrong but then at the same time you're so completely helpless you can't get a hold of Larry. He's swearing in the background. It's just real strange.

[Mike Gibson]

Now you have a police officer telling you you need to be here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes, there's a fire at your house. That drive is going to be brutal. Let me ask you a question. What are you looking for in a bank? Are you looking for a stuffy bank that is set in the past doing things the way things have always been done? What if you could get banking the way you wanted it? That's where Chime comes in. No more ridiculous fees. They have the option to get your paycheck early. Chime is a bank that's on your side changing the way people bank. They offer the most rewarding fee free banking. They don't charge you overdraft and monthly fees. They have thousands of fee free ATMs. Why would you pay to get your own money? Chime is built for you, not the 1% and you can get 5% cash back using the Chime card in a category of your choice like gas or groceries. Man I wish Chime was around when I was in my 20s because I just remember paying so many fees to bank. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com tcad that's chime.com tcatt it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech not a bank. Banking services for ChimeCard provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. For more information you can go to chime.com disclosures Marla saw fire trucks and police cars surrounding her home. A firefighter stopped her from entering the house, and a police officer told her that her daughters were at the hospital and Larry was at the police station with his son. Marla called her older son, who was at Walmart, and instructed him to go to her sister's house. Shortly after, an officer drove Marla to the hospital. And you talk about the drive from work to home being harrowing. It must have been. This is going to be a tough drive as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Your kids are at the hospital, there's been a fire, you don't know what's going on, and an officer is driving you.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't think you're feeling too good about it.

[Caller]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you have to be extremely nervous. An officer led her to a small room to wait. She recalled knowing that her daughters were gone, but the officer said he couldn't tell her. Marla pleaded with him to tell her, and he confirmed her suspicion that her daughters were dead.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that had to be rough.

[Mike Ferguson]

Soul crushing.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Marla was brought to the station for an interview and was questioned for more than four hours before she was told that Larry was accused of strangling the girls to death and setting the fire. Marla was asked if she wanted to see Larry. She said yes. During their interaction, she asked Larry to show her his hands, and she saw dried blood under his cuticles. That's going to be a rough face to face meeting.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I can't imagine what would be running through my mind about that person knowing what they did to my kids.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and you just want to leap across the table and get Adam. But I can imagine when she saw the dried blood, that must have cemented it in her mind that, yes, he killed them. I wonder if she also maybe had thoughts about some of the rituals that he had done before that involved blood. I don't know. On January 15, 2008, prosecutors formally charged Larry with two counts of first degree murder. In early April, the defense notified prosecutors they may use a mental health defense. In late April, a judge ruled that prosecution experts would be allowed to review Larry's psychological tests. His defense noted that he still had more testing to complete. Court filings in August 2008 shed more light on the details of the investigation. Prosecutors said Larry was practicing Satanism and carefully planned the killings as part of a spell from the Satanic Bible. And we mentioned it earlier. Right. Larry had a spell book that contained references to and drawings from the Satanic Bible, which is the founding document of, of the Church of Satan, the Necronomicom, the Book of the Dead, invented by author H.P. lovecraft, and Pagan Ways, an introduction to paganism. Passages from the Satanic Bible were consistent with the injuries and cause of death of Kendra and Alicia, according to prosecutors. The defense wanted to block prosecutors from referring to Satanism, the Church of Satan, or the terms Satanic, Wiccan and Paganism. The defense argued that these terms weren't relevant and could prejudice jurors. The defense wrote in their filing, the prejudice against the religions and organizations is culled instantly by the names themselves. And it doesn't surprise me a bit that they would want to try to get all of this stuff left out.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's not going to help their case.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is not. When you start getting into Satanism, Satanic paganism, things like that. Well, I mean, people have a certain connotation. They also might lump all of those things together. A juror might could. The prosecution argued in their response that the evidence was critical to the state's case and could prove Larry was not insane at the time of the murders. The evidence of Larry's belief in the text was proof he wasn't mentally ill or committing a psychotic act, but was conducting a spell or ritual. And I wonder if they had a little more leeway in that because the defense was thinking about, you know, using a mental health argument. So maybe the judge would be more apt to let certain things in or deny this defense motion because, well, the prosecution has to have a way to combat that defense. According to the prosecution's motion, one of the last spells in Larry's spellbook was from a chapter in the Satanic Bible. The invocation employed toward the conjuration of destruction. Okay, all right, first of all, it's a very long spell name. Secondly, none of it sounds good.

[Mike Gibson]

No, it sounds like something you should not be performing.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, it's like the one from Harry Potter. What's the one that kills people? The one you're not supposed to use.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah, that one.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know what I'm talking about. Can't think of it. I'll get a thousand emails though, of what it is. For some reason, the only spell I can think of is the one to repair his eyeglasses. That's the only one that's coming to mind. I know that's not it. In the two page chapter, the invocation mentions slashing the victim and rend that gaggling tongue and close his or her throat. Oh, Callie. Prosecutors said the girl's injuries were consistent with writings contained in that chapter. And we said It. Right. Larry also told police he was possessed by Cali at the time of the

[Mike Gibson]

murders, as he believed.

[Mike Ferguson]

Again, I don't think it was true. I think that's what he believed. You keep leaning on this. He wasn't really. I don't think he was really possessed by Kali, the Hindu goddess of time and change. But, you know, in pop culture, Kali is often associated with death and destruction. The Sioux City Journal noted that although the Satanic Bible has a chapter titled on the Choice of Human Sacrifice, the book prohibits killing children. It says that human sacrifices are to be made indirectly through a curse or hex that leads to the physical, mental, or emotional destruction of the sacrifice in ways and means not attributable to the magician. Okay, well, you know, I think prohibiting the killing of children is a good thing.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a really good thing. Maybe you need to expand that a little bit more.

[Mike Ferguson]

But committing a human sacrifice is indirectly right through a curse or hex that leads to the destruction of the sacrifice. I don't know how you accomplish that, but you're basically saying someone's going to die.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it doesn't sound good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Those worthy of being sacrificed are those who have unjustly wronged, hurt, or made trouble for the Satan. In short, a person asking to be cursed by their very actions. You ever put a curse or a hex on somebody?

[Mike Gibson]

It just did. Right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

I feel that.

[Mike Gibson]

Do you? Yeah.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, I don't believe in a lot of things, and I've been pretty vocal about some of the things I don't believe in. This is another thing I don't believe in.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I know, I know. When we were down in New Orleans, you walked into some place and went in and laughed very loudly at the person sitting at the table and then left like you were challenging them. I thought, hey, I'm not with him.

[Mike Ferguson]

And. And you walked out with a voodoo doll that looked a lot like me somehow, and I got it for free

[Mike Gibson]

for some reason, you know?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know about cursing people or putting hexes on people. I just don't believe in any of them that.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, for it to work, I think there has to be some form of belief from the person being cursed if. If it works at all. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, well, almost in. You could say, if a person believed in the curse, could they actually manifest the curse themselves? They probably could from the fact that they just believe in it. And they believe every little thing that's happening to them, if it's at all bad is because of the curse occur and then things just start to rapidly go downhill.

[Mike Gibson]

This is pretty close to the conversation I had with Freud, you know, junior, about five, seven years ago. I can't remember when, but we were kind of saying the same thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it seems like a conversation you'd have.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Prosecutors also wrote that authorities who searched the home found candles, a ritual knife that allegedly had DNA from one of the children on it, the sigil of Baphomet, bells, and an amulet with an inverted pentagram. All the items, including the number and color of the candles, match the directions for conducting satanic rituals in a chapter of the Satanic Bible.

[Mike Gibson]

So he had all the stuff, he was performing it, you know, based on the instructions that he had in the books.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's what the prosecution is really laying out.

[Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not just that he had the Bible. He had all the stuff in the home that directly matched the instructions from the satanic Bible on how to, I guess, you know, conduct this curse or make it happen. The defense maintained that references to Satanism would waste time and cause confusion. They argued that if the prosecution was allowed to invoke those images and they would be entitled to present evidence to clarify the information which would distract from relevant issues in this trial. And again, I think the defense was trying very hard to get any reference to Satanism, the Satanic Bible, any of it excluded.

[Mike Gibson]

And I'm thinking the prosecution would be like, okay, that's fine. If it distracts from the relevant issues of this trial, as you think it will, we're okay with that because we want to make sure we can say whatever we want to say about this Santanic stuff.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it seems like it's very central to their. To their argument.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The defense believed prosecutors plan to suggest Larry was affiliated with the Church of Satan. Prosecutors responded they didn't plan to mention the Church of Satan. Representative of the church also contacted prosecutors and assured them Larry was not a member. So apparently, they have a pretty good roster role of who exactly is a member of the Church of Satan. During an August hearing, the defense informed the judge that the prosecution's goal was to connect what Larry said and believed with Satanism and to suggest that Satanism is evil. By doing so, the prosecution would be ignoring text within the Satanic Bible that prohibits human sacrifice, the casting of spells, and practice of witchcraft was not, in and of itself, proof of adherence to Satanism, according to the defense. And this is the chess game, Right. Of the trial process.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The prosecution and the defense trying to get things excluded, included. It is very Much more chess than checkers, in my opinion.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, this is the frontline battle. This could determine the outcome.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, in a lot of cases it does, right? The pre trial motions, what evidence is allowed to be introduced and what evidence is deemed to be excluded can often make or break the trial for one side or another. Defense attorney Michael Williams said about assistant Woodbury county attorney Mark Campbell, as quoted by the Sioux City Journal. He wants shock value, sensationalism and nitpick analysis of religious texts in order to satisfy an inference. The judge said he would review an affidavit from the high priest of the church of Satan and a copy of the satanic Bible before deciding whether prosecutors could reference Satanism at trial. All right, so now the judge has homework. He's got to go home over the weekend and read this affidavit from a high priest of the church of Satan. He's got to read the satanic Bible.

[Mike Gibson]

I wonder how that plays out, you know, especially if he's like, really religious,

[Mike Ferguson]

you know, it might be a tough read, but it's something he's got to do. I mean, at the end of the day, he has to make the most fair and educated ruling, you know, that he can.

[Mike Gibson]

That's true.

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[Mike Ferguson]

Documents filed in September suggested that the murders were an act of revenge aimed at the girl's mother. In their motion, prosecutors noted Larry's threat to Marlon where he said he could hurt her in the worst possible way without even touching her.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that would be the way to do that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, he didn't touch her, but I don't know how he could have hurt her anymore.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Than to kill two of her children, maybe killing her third child as well. Yeah, that would have been even worse. But the motion noted that Marla's teenage son witnessed Larry's threat and that Marla and Larry discussed the statement in a recorded conversation from jail. Larry also told the defense psychiatrist who examined him that he believed Marla was having an affair. Prosecutors wanted the jury to examine Larry's psychological reports and hear facts that would show he wasn't mentally ill, as the defense planned to argue. According to their motion, defense expert Dr. Harold Burstock testified in a deposition that Larry's responses to a psychiatric test indicated he may be faking a mental illness. His responses were atypical for someone with a mental illness, but were relatively common among individuals feigning mental disorder.

[Mike Gibson]

And I think that probably happens more than we realize. Because there's a benefit, right, if they can get labeled a certain way before the trial starts.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, there can be a big difference in going to a mental facility for mental health as opposed to going straight to prison. You know, maybe you go to a facility and then you later go to prison, but maybe you just go to the facility until they say you are better and then you go free.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that could be.

[Mike Ferguson]

That has happened.

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

The prosecution argued they had the right to offer testimony about a non psychotic motive for the crime. According to the state, killing the girls to get revenge was consistent with teachings in the satanic bible and about destroying enemies by proxy. In October, a judge ruled that video testimony from Larry's parents would be permitted at trial. John and Sherry Harris lived in California, and they couldn't leave their jobs to testify in Iowa. They were going to testify about Larry's numerous psychiatric institutional placements in California from 1998 until 2003, according to a defense filing. After several delays, jury selection began on January 12, 2009. In opening statements, the prosecution noted that Larry and Marla were having marital problems, implying Larry killed Kendra and Alicia to get back at Marla for a suspected affair. They argued Larry was faking his mental illness to avoid conviction. The defense chose to delay their opening statement. The jury watched Larry's police interview where he denied killing the girls and recreated how he cast a spell in the family's basement. Larry said he had been planning a particular spell for a while. On the afternoon of January 6, 2008, he went to the basement to cast the spell. And he told the detective who was interviewing him now, if I called the God wrong, if I turned the wrong way, if I had the altar on the wrong wall, if I said words wrong, dire consequences. He claimed he cast the spell to straighten out his teenage stepson. Detective Heather Fleckenstein testified earlier in the trial that she interviewed the teenager on the day of the murders. He said he didn't get along with his sisters and did not like his dad. According to Larry, the spell must have reversed itself because when he returned home from running errands with his son that afternoon, the house was filled with smoke. The jury Saw that before the detective entered the room to question him. Larry was alone in the room for almost an hour. He talked to himself, cursed, cried, moaned. He rocked back and forth in a crouched position. He said, what did I do? Why the blank am I here? When speaking to a detective, Larry explained that he practiced witchcraft and referred to himself as a solitary witch. He got up and demonstrated how he cast a spell by walking around and motioning with his hands. He explained how he lit a black candle, sprinkled tobacco ash, tacked a paper pentagram on the east wall and lit five more candles. He pulled out a bell and rang it to cleanse the air. He turned counterclockwise once in each direction and recited the spell according to Larry. And I said, it is done and blew out my candles, threw the wax off to the side like I always do, put it away, went upstairs. This must have been a heck of a show for this detective, I'm thinking. But there, you know, there's some things that we've talked about that I want to revisit. You know, he is claiming that he cast this spell to straighten out his, you know, his teenage stepson. Right. Marla's oldest son. Oldest child, actually. But it must have reversed itself, Gibbs. It didn't work exactly the way that he thought it was going to. Ricocheted back somehow. It didn't do anything to Marla's son. It somehow caught the house on fire and killed her two girls. But here's the problem I have. If I'm a juror, I get it. You're talking about spells and Satanism and incantations and lighting candles and pentagrams. How does one of the girls get strangled with a cloth belt?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, how's that happen?

[Mike Ferguson]

Like that's part of the. The ritual. He doesn't do it. It just happens. It just doesn't make sense, man.

[Mike Gibson]

It doesn't.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think even if you believed in some of this stuff, I don't think that part would make sense at all. Larry said he got his son dressed and went to the girls shared bedroom upstairs. He pushed the door open and yelled inside, but there were no sounds. He assumed they were asleep. I mean, how big is this frickin bedroom?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that. You can't figure that out.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's all just a little too convenient.

[Mike Gibson]

It is, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

The story. About 1:30pm he walked with his son to the grocery store and returned home to shovel the sidewalk. His son complained about being cold, so he brought him inside and found the house filled with smoke. Larry said, I'm in the front of my house, freaking out. I ran back inside to try to get my girls, and I was in there screaming at them, trying to fight my way through there. I can't see. Officers testified earlier at trial that Larry. Larry told them when they first arrived at home, the girls are blanking, dead. Obviously. He used an expletive. They cut that out. In the research. In the paper, he was asked if he killed them, and he said no. When asked who did kill them, he said, hell if I know.

[Caller]

Oh.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a strange series of statements and responses.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

How does he know Larry, at the time that first responders show up that the girls are dead? How could he have any knowledge of that whatsoever? Because even according to him, he never made it. He couldn't get to them.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he couldn't see them.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then when he's asked if he killed them, he said, he says no. When asked who did kill them, he says, hell if I know. To me, that's an admission of an assumption that they were murdered. If the house is on fire, could they have been killed by smoke inhalation? Something to do with the fire, maybe?

[Mike Gibson]

Could have.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's not saying that.

[Mike Gibson]

No, he's not.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's almost admitting that they were killed. He just didn't know who had done it. And that's a strange response. In my book. He told the detective interviewing him that he was possessed by the goddess Kali and the fire was vengeance against him for failing to respect all of the magical laws.

[Caller]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

There are so many magical laws, Gibbs.

[Mike Gibson]

That's why I put out a Patrona spell.

[Mike Ferguson]

Huh. Just in case.

[Mike Gibson]

Just in case. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Larry was shown a photo of the brown bell found around Alicia's neck. He looked down at his lap, but denied knowing whose belt was used to strangle her. And I don't know if you've heard this from experts, but I've heard a lot of people say when you ask someone a question and they deny knowing the answer, or they deny something, but they look in a direction where something you would expect related to be, it's like a subconscious admission. So is he looking down at his belt? Because that's what he used most likely. A lot of times it happens in traffic stops. On those body cam videos, they'll ask him, you know, is there any drugs in the car? And somebody will immediately look at, like, their center console.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. Like where they would have it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right, Where. Where it ultimately turns out to be. But at the same time, they're saying no, but they're looking at this center console. Jurors also viewed a video of Larry speaking to Marlowe and denying that he killed the girls. He said, I didn't do this on purpose. I didn't mean for this to happen.

[Mike Gibson]

Just a spell gone bad.

[Mike Ferguson]

And again. Right. He's not saying he didn't do it. He's saying, I didn't do it on purpose. I didn't mean for it to happen. Sioux City Fire Marshal Chuck Hirsch testified that they believe the fire originated in a pile of clothing on the basement floor and was most likely set intentionally. And I get that, you know, now if he was doing, you know, this big ritual, it sounds like he had a. A number of candles lit at one point. Could one of them have fallen over? Yeah, could have. Now, he said he put them all out. But then how did the fire start? If you believe Larry, it was the goddess Callie started this fire, killed these girls because he had failed to respect some magical laws.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Overstepped the boundaries of the law.

[Mike Ferguson]

My thought is he's completely full of it. I just can't figure out how much is due to maybe mental illness and how much of it is just fantastical. Trying to come up with an explanation for why these two girls are dead.

[Mike Gibson]

I think it's more of the latter.

[Mike Ferguson]

I definitely think it could be. It could be a combination of both, but I think some of the second is definitely in there for sure. A criminologist testified that Alicia's DNA was found in several samples taken from Larry's hands and on the tip of a 12 inch knife found in the bedroom closet. Two of Larry's fingerprints were found on the knife. Kendra's DNA was found on one of Larry's shoes. A forensic pathologist testified that Alicia, who was found new with a green cloth bell wrapped around her neck, had a broken neck and died of strangulation due to asphyxiation. She had marks on her neck and a tear in her genital area, but no evidence of semen was found on either girl. Kendra also had marks on her neck consistent with the use of a woman's slip found with her body. She suffered two deep parallel cuts on one arm and a cut in her genital area. Okay. We are finding out a lot more about the details of what happened to these two young girls, and it just keeps getting worse.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he's a monster. He can hide behind whatever he wants to hide behind. But in the day, what Larry did was horrific.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it was going to be horrific just with the murder by strangulation. But now you're getting into an Area where it sounds to me that there was some sexual contact on his part, not to mention the fact that he used a knife to make cuts on their genital area. It's monstrous stuff. And arguing that it came as a result of a spell gone wrong, I think that's going to be real tough for a jury member to buy. I'm not buying it.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, either am I.

[Mike Ferguson]

In their opening statement, the defense argued that Larry was under pressure, unmedicated, and trying to find a way to gain control of his life when he attempted to cast a spell in the basement of his home. Performing the spell allowed him to slip into a dissociative state, a trance in which he did not know right from wrong. Two forensic scientists would testify about this. And Larry had a history of mental health problems dating back to childhood. He used drugs, experienced hallucinations, and heard voices. Sherry Clark testified that Larry was hospitalized three times after trying to end his life. He frequently went to her house in Orogrande, California. When he ran away from home. Larry's mother was verbally abusive to both her and Larry. According to Clark, she screamed obscenities and told Clark, a practicing Wiccan, that she and her kids would go to hell. Okay, so maybe he did not have a good childhood. Sounds like it, right?

[Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you believe the testimony. And I think he did have a history of mental health problems. But did he try to cast a spell in his basement that somehow caused him to fall into a dissociative trance, and so he didn't know right from wrong when he went and killed his two young stepdaughters?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I don't believe that.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't believe it either. It's a. It's a defense argument. They got to come up with something, Right? The defense noted that Larry's relationship with Marla provided him with structure and a supportive environment. Childcare advocate Nancy Webb testified that she never saw anything inappropriate or unusual while working with Larry. He was invested in his son's development, which was affected by fetal alcohol syndrome, and appeared to have a good relationship with his three stepchildren. And this is one of the strange things about this case, right? Even Marla said it. It's like he was a good stepdad. He took care of them. He would tuck them in. They loved him. It seems to make what happened that much more strange.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, look, she. She was very clear to him, do not practice whatever this is that you're

[Mike Ferguson]

doing in the house and especially around my kids. The defense noted that things changed when Larry's medication ran Out. Marla told Larry he had to go back on it. And he tried to get his medication, but couldn't find the time and money to get the required physical before doctors would prescribe it. Marla's teenage son testified that things were going well when they first moved to Sioux City, but his stepfather experienced mood swings, and his temper worsened when he stopped taking his medication. He never saw Larry hurt anyone. Larry was an okay person and tried to keep him out of trouble and deal with the consequences of his conviction. Larry never practiced witchcraft around them and stopped talking about it to them after Marla asked him to stop again. What makes all of this that much stranger?

[Mike Gibson]

It really does. So on this day, he decided to practice it.

[Mike Ferguson]

But why?

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And for me, that's the big question.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Was it because he'd stopped taking his medication and his mental health had. Had grown, you know, worse, or was it because he thought Marlo was having an affair and wanted revenge and he wanted to get back at her? And as he said, I can hurt you without ever touching you.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Well.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's exactly what happened.

[Mike Gibson]

He was right.

[Mike Ferguson]

In closing arguments, the prosecution emphasized that Larry faked his mental illness to avoid conviction. On January 29, 2009, Larry Harris Sr. Was found guilty on two counts of first degree murder. On February 18, he received two life sentences. And it doesn't surprise me one bit, Gibbs. And I think, you know, from everything that we've talked about, that was the right outcome. And a life sentence or two life sentences is what he deserved.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. Didn't deserve anything less than the lives

[Mike Ferguson]

of Kendra and Alicia were tragically cut short by their stepfather. The defense tried to argue that Larry was legally insane at the time of the murders due to a history of mental illness and being off his medication. But the jury sided with the prosecution, who argued that Larry killed the girls as part of a plot to get revenge on his wife, who he believed was unfaithful. And we just talked about it. I mean, that's kind of where I think we both were leaning as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did he have some mental health problems? Yeah, I think he probably did.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I agree. I think so, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Does it help when you're prescribed medication but you don't take it? No, it never does. Right. It's never a good thing when somebody is supposed to take that type of medication, but they don't, for whatever reason. And I don't know, it could have been a part of him making the decisions that he made. But I think at the end of the day, this was more about trying to get back at his wife because he thought she was cheating on him.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I definitely believe it's why he did what he did.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, I do think he had been, you know, practicing witchcraft or Satanism or whatever you want to call it.

[Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

He had been doing some spells. I don't think there was any doubt about that for years.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I just wonder if that became his explanation for what happened.

[Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

As he's thinking this thing through, he's like, well, I'll say I was trying to do a spell, and it backfired. Something. Something went bad.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you got to come up with something.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I guess you have to try.

[Mike Ferguson]

But to me, it just doesn't explain all the facts of what happened. I mean, are you telling me that a spell strangled these two girls? Cut their genital areas? There was even trauma to their genital areas? It's tough for me to believe because I don't believe in spells in the first place, but even if there were spells, that would seem like a pretty complex one.

[Mike Gibson]

It would.

[Mike Ferguson]

To get it to do all of that.

[Mike Gibson]

His hands were dirty in on. Yeah. This.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, you look at the blood under his fingernails.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

The blood on the knife, one of the girl's DNA, which I'm assuming was blood or something to that effect on his shoes. It couldn't have been just DNA that he would have gotten from being normally in the house with them.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pretty hard to overlook that type of evidence. So I think Larry Harris Sr. Is exactly where he deserves to be. And from my way of thinking, he should spend the rest of his life in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. No reason to come out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Nope. So that's it for our episode on Lawrence Harris Sr. We got a voicemail. Gibbs. You want to check that out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear it.

[Caller]

Hey, Mike, I have got to tell you, I had to take a break from listening for a while because I'm trying to read the same school books that my daughters are reading so I can help explain things. But I linked back in and started listening to a podcast the other day at random, with my daughters in the car on the way home from a road trip. And it was so weird because I thought I kept recognizing the name, and it was the Raven Abaroa case. And I realized once I heard Raven, that that is somebody I knew well and went to high school with, I could not believe it. It blew my mind. And I could just barely keep the car on the road. I was so shocked. I had no idea any of that had happened. And he was definitely the cool kid, the cute kid, the popular kid, the super excited kid at school. And it was just insane to hear that story. I had to pull over at the first rest stop and call some of my high school friends and say, what the hell? Did you guys know this? And some of them had and some of them didn't, but it was so crazy. Anyway, that was my connection. Love you guys.

[Mike Gibson]

It was kind of cool. We hear that a lot that people have some type of connection to the case that we do, either, you know, directly or indirectly. But I always find it fascinating.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I do, too. And. And I think the one thing that you always hear is just how differently the episode kind of hits.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

When somebody does have a connection. Right. It's one thing to hear about, you know, a murder and all the. The nasty details of it and. And stuff like that, but when you know the person or knew the person or you know, someone who's involved, it's definitely going to hit differently. There's just no doubt about it. But thanks so much for the voicemail. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[Mike Gibson]

Sam.