Long Island Serial Killer Part 2

Summary

True Crime All The Time – Episode 501: Long Island Serial Killer Part 2

Release Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

This episode is the second installment in a multi-part series on the Long Island Serial Killer. Hosts Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson ("Gibby") continue their in-depth exploration, focusing on the grim discoveries of additional victims near Gilgo Beach through 2022, the evolving investigation, theories about victimology, and the baffling conduct of Suffolk County law enforcement. The episode mixes sobering facts with the hosts’ signature candid banter, balancing respect for victims with true crime curiosity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Victimology and the Selection Process

• The hosts discuss the specific victim profile targeted by the killer: petite escorts, often under 5 feet tall and under 100 lbs, with hazel eyes ([04:27]).
  • Quote: "It's like… shopping on Amazon, basically. He went to the market, selected the criteria and then said, here you go." – Mike Ferguson ([04:51])
• The environment of online sex work is analyzed as a double-edged sword: considered safer than street work but easier for predators to select specific targets ([05:19]).
  • The killer instructed victims to leave behind their personal belongings, further increasing vulnerability ([05:52]).

2. Discovery of Additional Remains (2011 and Earlier)

• March 29, 2011: Partial remains of Jessica Taylor (missing since 2003) are found, with other body parts previously found in Manorville ([08:03]).
  • Jessica's remains showed attempts to hinder identification, including mutilated tattoos ([08:50]).
• April 4, 2011: Remains of three more victims found, including "Jane Doe 6", whose body parts were also discovered in Manorville in 2000 ([11:28]).
• Also discovered:
  • The remains of an unidentified toddler and an unidentified Asian male, signaling possible deviations from the apparent MO ([13:32]).
  • The largest and smallest distances between dumpsites measured as little as 0.4 miles and as much as 1.43 miles ([15:29]).
• April 11, 2011: Two more sets of remains found west of Gilgo Beach; "Peaches" identified by their tattoo, and the connection between "Peaches" and "Baby Doe" (the toddler), whom DNA confirmed as mother and child ([16:53], [18:38]).
  • Quote (on the tragedy): "It hits different when you're talking about a toddler. There's just no way around it." – Mike Ferguson ([19:43])

3. Forensic Details and Patterns

• Many victims’ remains were found dismembered and scattered; multiple sites were used for dumping ([12:14]).
• Several bodies/parts were wrapped in plastic, and distinctive jewelry or tattoos were critical for identification ([16:53], [19:56]).
• Notable evidence: In 2020, police released an image of a belt with carved initials "H W" or "M H," believed linked to the killer ([43:41]).
  • Quote: "You have a piece of evidence that you believe was handled by the suspect because it presumably didn't belong to any of the suspects, but it also has what appears to be initials on. So, okay, we got DNA, we got initials. We might be on to something here." – Mike Ferguson ([44:02])

4. Law Enforcement Response and Scandal

• Change in investigation leadership: Chief James Burke took over in Dec 2011, reducing manpower and cutting out external agencies like the FBI ([26:53], [28:56]).
• Burke’s tenure was marred by scandal—he assaulted a suspect (whose theft exposed Burke’s possession of sex toys in his police vehicle), then tried to cover up the crime, eventually serving prison time ([30:36] through [34:11]).
  • Quote: "This is why people have big time problems with police. You have bad apples like this guy making the rest of police officers look bad." – Mike Ferguson ([32:39])
  • Burke was later arrested in 2023 for indecent exposure ([34:31]).
  • The hosts speculate his personal issues may have distracted from or actively harmed the investigation, and note that some officials seemed uninterested because most victims were sex workers ([28:03]).
• In 2015, the FBI rejoined the case as soon as Burke was indicted ([28:56]).

5. The Debate Over Multiple Perpetrators

• With different victim types (including a toddler and a male victim), the hosts discuss whether the remains are the work of one killer or multiple ([14:31], [22:09]).
  • Quote: "If this is one person, we've got a real predator here. And if it's not one person, then what do we make out of it? You got multiple people running around dumping bodies in the same parts. Hard not to believe as one person, but you could... it could be multiple and that would potentially even be scarier..." – Mike Ferguson ([22:09])

6. Controversy and Mystery of Shannon Gilbert’s Death

• Gilbert’s disappearance triggered the initial investigation. Her remains were found in December 2011, but authorities were divided over whether her death was homicide or accidental ([25:39] through [51:36]).
  • A family-commissioned autopsy suggested possible homicidal strangulation; official stance remains inconclusive or accidental ([47:48], [50:02]).
  • Her family, attorney, and private pathologist (Dr. Michael Baden) contested the official narrative, citing the chaotic circumstances and discoveries.
  • Notable Quote: "Why are you running? ...Or is it because she's being chased... by whatever she thinks is chasing her or actually is?" – Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson ([51:36]–[52:12])
  • The hosts stress frustration with police declaring causes of death definitive when evidence is conflicting ([48:33], [49:36]).

7. Genetic Genealogy and Case Progress

• By 2019, investigators could access genetic genealogy to try and identify both victims and potential suspects ([42:16]).
  • The identification of "Jane Doe 6" as Valerie Mack was achieved using this technology in 2020 ([44:26]).
  • The technique is praised as transformative for both solving crimes and identifying victims ([45:25]).
• Discussion of earlier convicted killer John Bittrolff: potential ties to some victims, geographical and circumstantial links, but no confirmed direct connection ([41:03]).

8. Unfolding Tragedy in the Gilbert Family

• Shannon's younger sister, Sarah, killed their mother in 2016, further compounding the family’s suffering ([46:08]).

9. Side Investigation: Dr. Peter Hackett

• The Gilbert family brought a civil suit against Dr. Hackett, a local physician who suspiciously inserted himself into the case; Hackett denied involvement despite inconsistent statements and phone records ([54:51]–[55:02]).

10. The Lasting Impact and Lingering Questions

• The episode closes with the hosts reflecting on the totality of the tragedy, the failures of the investigation, and the continued fight for answers by victims’ families ([55:33]–[56:51]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the horror of the discoveries:
  "We are talking about a trail of carnage here. We really are." – Mike Ferguson ([21:01])
• On police disinterest:
  "Is it a priority for them if majority of the victims are sex workers?" – Mike Gibson ([27:47])
• On the release of critical evidence:
  "We do believe that this item was handled by the suspect and did not belong to any of the victims." – (Commissioner Hart, cited by Ferguson) ([43:41])
• On the enduring uncertainty:
  "Them coming out and saying this stuff isn't going to change their mind. ...If you can't be 100% sure with provable, you know, facts, evidence – just leave it as undetermined." – Mike Ferguson ([49:48], [56:14])

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Important Timestamps

• [04:04] – Victim profile and method of selection
• [08:03] – Discovery and identification of Jessica Taylor
• [11:28] – Additional bodies and geographic details
• [15:29] – Proximity of body sites and implications
• [18:38] – Connection between "Peaches" and "Baby Doe"
• [25:39] – Discovery and saga of Shannon Gilbert’s remains
• [26:53] – Police leadership change, reduced resources
• [30:36] – Chief James Burke scandal
• [34:31] – Burke’s later arrest for indecent exposure
• [41:03] – Discussion of John Bittrolff and possible links
• [44:26] – Valerie Mack (“Jane Doe 6”) identified via genetic genealogy
• [46:08] – Further tragedy: murder of Mary Gilbert by daughter Sarah
• [51:36] – Final debate about what led to Shannon Gilbert’s death
• [54:51] – Suspicion around Dr. Peter Hackett
• [56:51] – Preview of Part 3: suspect identification and arrest

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Summary & Takeaways

This episode paints a chilling picture of a sprawling, mishandled murder investigation, compounded by bureaucratic failures, personal scandal within law enforcement, and anguish for the many families affected. Through detailed retelling, the podcast underscores the importance of investigative diligence, the impact of genetic genealogy, the dangers faced by vulnerable populations, and the emotional complexity of unresolved cases.

Next Episode Tease:
Part 3 will delve into how authorities ultimately identified the suspect and the background of the alleged killer, a subject the hosts expect to be as riveting as the crimes themselves ([56:51]).

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 501 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

Hey. We did it. We went over 500 episodes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

We turned the page to 501.

[Mike Gibson]

Like the jeans you wear, the 501s button fly button.

[Mike Ferguson]

I never understood button fly.

[Mike Gibson]

They were not a big hit. I don't.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think they were. I think a lot of people wear them. Maybe still do. A zipper just seems so much faster.

[Mike Gibson]

It is. It's a lot of work when you got to get your jeans off to have to undo those five buttons.

[Mike Ferguson]

Excep for, you know, that guy. And something about Mary. See, people that are afraid of that might go with the button plug.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, well, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, man, we're diving right in. Okay, so last episode we started Our series on the Long island serial killer. We started off talking about how the investigation began. The discovery of the bodies on Gilgo beach, the lives of the Gilgo 4, and the early suspect profile, which, let's face it, wasn't a whole lot. No ogre in his late 20s to late 30s, basically, is what we got. Now, I did want to spend just a second here, though, talking about the commonalities or the similarities of the victims. We touched on it in episode one. But it's hard not to believe, right, when you kind of step away and you look at it, that someone is targeting a very specific type of woman.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, number one, they're all escorts, so they have that in common. And as we heard, I think one of the investigators say, you know, it seems as though this person is going online and essentially searching for the type of victim that they're looking for.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Petite, Hazel eyes, what, £100 or less? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

For the majority of them, five foot or less.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, it's a very specific victim type. And I just got to thinking about it, you know, between the first episode and the second, how easy that would have been for the killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Fairly easy.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's like. And I don't want to trivialize it, but it's like shopping on Amazon, basically.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's exactly what you're saying. Right. He went to the market.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Selected the criteria and then said, here you go.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, we did spend a little bit of time talking about sex work. Again, very dangerous job. Always has been, always will be.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You think about an escort maybe being safer than someone standing on a street corner who's getting into the car with. With a stranger who is then going to drive away to wherever they want. But then. Is it. Because now we're talking about someone who's advertising their services online, where someone can carefully select the type of victim that they're looking for.

[Mike Gibson]

And this killer's doing a good job. And I hate even saying that, but he's doing a job where he can get them to drop their defense. Right. He's telling them, hey, leave this stuff behind. Don't bring your purse, don't bring this. And that's kind of like the safety net, right? I mean, you just phone. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe a purse with a pepper spray or something that a woman would normally carry as some form of protection. Maybe that's part of that. But I just. I was really thinking about that. And again, we don't. We always hate it when we have to give. I don't want to use the Word, props. But when you have to give credit or anything like that to a killer, but I think you have to talk about how they go about doing what they do.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's important. Sure it is to the story. It's also important to learning what to look for in, in certain situations. But as we move on to part two, you know, we'll cover the discovery of additional bodies in the Gilgo beach area. More links, right, or all the links among the victims and follow the investigation through 2022. On March 29, 2011, police found partial skeletal remains several miles east of where the, the Gilgo 4 were found. And we said it right, in episode one, the remains of these four women, the Gilgo 4, were found very close together. They were, I mean, there was no doubt to me that this was a killer's dumping ground. That's how close they were. This wasn't scattered. I mean, this was a place that someone went to specifically. They went back to specifically because they must have thought this was a great place the first time. It's going to serve me well in the future.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, clearly they were comfortable in that area.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's, that's a good word to use. These remains were identified as 20 year old Jessica Taylor, who went missing in 2003. Only Jessica's skull and hands were found on the beach. However, other parts of her remains had already been found. Back on July 26, 2003, a dog walker in Manorville, eastern Long island, found a nude and dismembered torso on top of a pile of scrap wood at the end of a paved access road off Halsey Manor Road. The head and arms below the elbows had been removed and a tattoo was mutilated to hinder identification. So, you know, we're talking about, number one, a sick individual.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, there's no doubt about that. But I think we're also talking about a person who is at least putting some thought into what they're doing. I mean, they're trying to get away with what they're doing. So obviously there are some steps that they're going to take right, to hinder the police from identifying who this person is.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I think they're not only doing that, but I, I feel like maybe they might be getting an enjoyment out of this as well.

[Mike Ferguson]

You could be right. It could be a, a twofold kind of thing. I'm messing the words up, but you, you know what I'm saying? I mean, obviously if you're removing the head and hands, that's, that goes A long way towards identifying someone and then take it a step further, and then you're trying to mutilate a tattoo which might help. Probably would help the police identify the person. The remains were identified as Jessica later that year. Jessica was last seen working around the Port Authority Bus Terminal in Manhattan. Authorities believe she was killed sometime between July 21 and July 26. Jessica's mother reported her missing when she didn't show up for a planned get together in Poughkeepsie. So, I mean, the one thing that jumps out at me is the. These discoveries were made eight years apart.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, you know, we talk all the time about, you know, whether it's a hunter or somebody out hiking or something like that, stumbling upon either a. A dead body or the remains of a body, skeletal remains, I think that would be shocking. But then there's another part of it that, that I can't help but think about, and that's that how many people's remains are just out in some remote area yet to be found.

[Mike Gibson]

Scary.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a scary thought.

[Mike Gibson]

I think there's a lot.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think so, too, and I don't like it.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't either.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not going to help me plan hiking trips. You know, I don't do a lot of hiking anyway.

[Mike Gibson]

Sorry. No, I mean, I'm not worried about you going hiking.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, there's. There's no danger of me planning any, but it's not going to strengthen that or make that any more likely.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On April 4, 2011, three more sets of remains were found along Ocean Parkway at Gilgo Beach. The first victim was identified as Jane Doe number six. Authorities found her head, right foot and hands on the beach. She was found a mile and a half east of Jessica Taylor and a little over 2 miles east of the Gilgo 4. This woman's remains were found years earlier in Manorville, Long island, in November 2000. Again, this was the same area where Jessica Taylor's partial remains were found in 2003.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, are you asking yourself, if you live there, what the hell is going on?

[Mike Ferguson]

I think that's one of the things you're asking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's also. I mean, nobody would have known it in the beginning, but it's also fascinating when you look back on it, that, okay, he dumped certain parts or some parts of the body in one location, multiple people, and then he dumped parts of multiple people in a second location. So again, those locations must have been ones that he was familiar with, comfortable with. My other thought is we're talking about A person who is more than okay, apparently, with dismembering body.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, you know, I can't imagine ever killing someone. It's not something I want to think about. I don't think of myself as ever doing that. And I think it would be really hard to dismember a body to go

[Mike Gibson]

to that next level.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, I guess if you're a stone cold killer, that probably doesn't phase you at all. I think for most of us, it's a bridge too far.

[Mike Gibson]

I think you have to have a. There's a certain type of personality that can do that.

[Mike Ferguson]

You mean like a sociopath, a psychopath, you know, like. Yeah, that kind of personality?

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

The victim's torso was wrapped in garbage bags and dumped in the woods near the intersection of Halsey Manor Road and Mill Road. The remains of an unidentified female toddler were located in the same area of Gilgo beach as Jane Doe number six. The remains of an unidentified male were found closer to the remains of the Gilgo 4. Investigators described the victim as between 17, 23 years old, Asian, and death occurred five to 10 years earlier.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, so we're kind of getting away from the M.O. right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, yeah, obviously we're. We're male now.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we have a toddler. Yeah. So that. That doesn't fit at all with the MO that we've been talking about, which is sex workers, presumably, you know, gone through online. They all fit a very similar specific type.

[Mike Gibson]

So for authorities, they have to figure out, are these related, are they tied together, or just some random bodies were uncovering.

[Mike Ferguson]

But again, it goes back to your question is, what the hell is going on?

[Mike Gibson]

That's what I would. I would be asking myself if I live there.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you're a beachgoer, if you live in the area. I think these are all questions you got to ask. Now. This is not all coming out at the same time.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. We're talking about different years and things like that. So we can. We know it all now.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But people didn't know it all in 2000 or 2003. It would come out in drips and drabs. And so maybe it didn't hit the same way.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably not. But to people, I just think, you know, as a. As you picked up the paper and you. You're like, didn't this happen last year? Yes, happened two years ago.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, at a certain point, obviously, they were able to lay it all out.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And when you see it all like that, it's. It's very disconcerting to say the least for sure. The greatest distance between victims was 1.43 miles, and the shortest distance was just 4. 10 of a mile. Yeah. On April 11, 2011, two more sets of remains were found off Ocean Parkway in Nassau county, seven miles west of Gilgo Beach. The first set of dismembered remains were found in the brush at Jones Beach State Park. They belonged to an unidentified woman. This was another instance where the woman's partial remains were first discovered in a different location years earlier.

[Mike Gibson]

So drop a little bit over here, drop a little bit over here and hope that they can't figure it out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. On June 28, 1997, the dismembered torso of an African American woman was found at Hempstead Lake State park in Lakeview, New York. The torso was found in a plastic container dumped next to a road along the west side of the lake. The victim had a tattoo below her left breast of a peach with a bite out of it and two drips falling from the core. Because of this, investigators called the Jane Doe peaches.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

The case was featured on America's Most Wanted and her tattoo was published in a tattoo magazine. Leading a Connecticut tattoo artist to come forward with the tip. He recalled that Peaches was visiting from Long island with her aunt and cousin and said she was having boyfriend trouble.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it was worth putting it into that magazine.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, well, you and I talk about it all the time though, right? If you could back in the day, get a case on America's Most Wanted. Yeah, that was a big frickin deal.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, you got in front of a lot of people.

[Mike Ferguson]

There was a lot of eyeballs. A lot of people watched that show. Now, the tattoo thing, it's a great piece of evidence or it's a great identifier, but you got to somehow get it in front of the person that would know maybe who did that tattoo or the person who did that tattoo. Really smart of them to think about putting it in a tattoo magazine.

[Mike Gibson]

And I think they got lucky with that. I mean, it could have been a hit or miss, but in this case, they had a. They had a good hit.

[Mike Ferguson]

But what was the downside, Right? No downside if it doesn't work.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

So why not take the chance? I mean, that's kind of the way I look at it.

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

A skull and teeth were found at Tobay beach and listed as Jane Doe number seven. The remains were confirmed to belong to an unidentified victim whose severed legs were found in a garbage bag on fire island on April 20, 1996. So I mean, let's, let's just stop for a minute. I mean, we are talking about a trail of carnage here. We really are now, you know, we're talking about it with the, with the 2020 knowledge, right, of knowing everything that happened. I still think, you know, early on when these things were being discovered, I'm sure it probably didn't hit the same way, hits different in its totality. But I mean, once you know, the, once you know everything that some parts were found over here, some were here, two different dumping grounds, I mean, it becomes just so scary.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it really does.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you get the full scope of. I mean, if this is one person, we've got a real predator here. And if it's not one person, then what do we make out of it? You got multiple people running around dumping bodies in the same parts. Hard not to believe as one person,

[Mike Gibson]

but, but you could, it could be

[Mike Ferguson]

multiple and that would potentially even be scarier, I guess so. By May of 2011, a total of 10 sets of remains had been found on Gilgo Beach. Investigators weren't sure whether or not the same killer was responsible for all the murders. So I just got done saying, right, that at a certain point, kind of the totality is, is going to set in. I think by May 2011, if it's being reported that 10 sets of remains had been found. I mean, if you're a resident, if you're making travel plans, it's, it's not going to be to Gilgo Beach, I can tell you that much.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely not, man. You're gonna stay away from there.

[Mike Ferguson]

On May 9, 2011, the police speculated that two of the murders appeared to be related. The partial remains of Jane Doe number six had previously been found in a heavily wooded area of Manorville. On November 19, 2000, she was found in the same section where Jessica Taylor's torso was recovered. The manner of disposal of Jane Doe number six was said to have been distinctly dissimilar to the Gilgo 4, but similar to that of Jessica Taylor. Okay, so I don't know what you make of that, other than maybe questioning whether this is the same person or if it was one person who murdered and disposed of the Gilgo 4. But then you have a second person come in and just happen to murder and dispose of the remains of his victims in a similar place. Either way, I'm scared to death, man.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So this is just a bizarre scenario.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is, it is. And imagine, you know, you live pretty close to there, and you picking up the morning paper, and this is probably headline news, and you're reading it for weeks on end. It's terrifying stuff.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, what if you took a jog down that way earlier that day?

[Mike Ferguson]

Wouldn't be. Oh, you mean before you knew.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, well, okay. Yeah. Because the jogs are gonna stop.

[Mike Gibson]

I would hope so.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, I wouldn't be jogging anyway. Jogging is about as likely as hiking.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or actually less likely, probably for me. But, yeah. I think if you're an avid jogger and that. That was your route, you're either buying a treadmill to stay indoors, or you're. You're picking a different route.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

One or the other. I can't imagine that anybody is reading that type of news and saying, yeah, I'll go back there on the next job. That's fine.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm not worried about it. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

In early December 2011, investigators found Shannon Gilbert's belongings, including her purse, shoes, and cell phone. They were found in marshland near Oak Beach, Long Island. And, you know, this is so fascinating. Right. Because we started episode one, we did, talking about Shannon Gilbert. That's who they were searching for.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

When they happened to, you know, find the remains of these women. And then they were finding more and more remains, but they still. They weren't finding Shannon Gilbert, but the remains of Shannon were finally found on December 13, 2011, a quarter mile from where her belongings were found. But interestingly, authorities didn't suspect foul play because, what. Maybe she wasn't dismembered.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And how the. The accounts from that night went.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that could be. But Shannon's family had a private autopsy done. Their pathologist thought the findings were consistent with homicide. But the SCPD and the FBI behavioral unit believe Shannon's death was an accidental drowning.

[Mike Gibson]

But still, you have to think about, you know, one. It's how the whole case started. But then for her to be found with her belongings here, her remains here. Yeah. If it's not related, she's still mixed in with that stuff. And it just. It's just like another layer. But bizarreness.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is a way to say that it is. And I get it. It's maybe a different situation. It's not similar enough. Right. To lump in. In January 2012. James Burke took over as chief of the Suffolk County Police, forcing former Chief of Detectives Dominic Verone into retirement. Chief Burke reduced manpower and cut out outside agencies involved in the Gilgo beach investigation. The case remained unsolved, but the Long island serial killer remained a topic in the headlines. And how could it not give? I mean, this is big time stuff. You've got, you know, 10 different women.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

At least. Or 10 different victims remain scattered in multiple locations. I mean, we're talking about a very vicious serial killer, and you.

[Mike Gibson]

You just can't let that sit there, you know, you have to talk about it. You. You need to make sure that authorities are doing everything they can to figure out what the heck's going on. But is it a priority for them if majority of the victims are sex workers?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it does kind of to me. Then bring up the question. You're reducing manpower and you're cutting out outside agencies who could provide a lot of help. Why are you doing that? Is there no pressure? Is it because of their profession? Many of them, I don't know. But it seems like a weird thing because this has to be very out there in the headlines, but yet you're reducing the amount of people working on it.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it seems like something you'd want to make sure you were still continuing with a full court press on.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and it would seem like something that the public would be demanding. Yeah, but maybe they're not because of the profession of most of these victims. I. I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On December 10, 2015, Suffolk County Police Commissioner Tim Sini announced that the FBI had joined the investigation one day after former chief James Burke was indicted for civil rights violations and conspiracy. So, you know, I don't know everything about it, but, you know, obviously, the minute this guy's gone, they bring the FBI back in. And that. That seems logical to me. It seems strange to me that they would even cut anybody out who's trying to help.

[Mike Gibson]

But are they bringing him back in, you know, for the unsolved murders? Or is it a combination of that and the fact that this former chief, you know, is in trouble over civil rights violations?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I don't know. Now, the New York Post reported that Burke refused to keep the FBI informed of the investigation into the Go Go beach murders. This is because he was on the FBI's radar for the 2012 assault of a man named Christopher Loeb. Christopher Loeb was arrested in Smithtown, New York, for probation violations. During the arrest in search of his home, officers found stolen merchandise from over a Dozen vehicles, including Burke's vehicle. His gun belt, magazines of ammunition, cigars, humidor, and a canvas bag were stolen. It was reported that Loeb also stole sex toys and pornography from Burke.

[Mike Gibson]

You stole from my vehicle. You stole my stuff, but you also stole my sex toys. So that's probably, you know, an embarrassment thing that Burke didn't like to have out there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I mean, this is the chief of police, first of all. Okay, maybe you can't help it that your police vehicle got stolen. Right? That's maybe outside of your control. But let's talk about why you have sex toys and pornography in there. You know, that's going to be a question that's gonna come up.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hey, what you do on your own time, you know, as I always say, is. Is your own business. But, okay, you might be transporting it, maybe to get it home, but you. You know, when you get home, maybe you take that stuff out of your work vehicle and put it in the bedroom where. Where you think it belongs.

[Mike Gibson]

But you know as well as I know, once that gets out there, you know, and you're working day in and day out with your fellow officers, they are not going to let that slide.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, he's the chief of police, so they work for him, but they. They're still not going to let us know.

[Mike Gibson]

There are going to be some things,

[Mike Ferguson]

joke said things, maybe because he's the boss, they don't say them directly to him, but everybody's going to be talking behind his back, I can guarantee you that. You know, you. You just think about losing your gun belt, ammunition, things like that. Burke was allowed to enter and get his bag and other items during the search. He drove to the Suffolk County Police 4th Precinct in Smithtown, where Loeb was being interrogated. He entered the room and punched and kicked Loeb in the head and body while he was chained in handcuffed. Burke and others pressured the detectives who witnessed the assault to conceal it. And this is why people have big time problems with police.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You have bad apples like this guy making the rest of police officers look bad.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, look, I get it. You have the right to be pissed that this guy took your stuff. Yeah, but. And he probably, like I said, embarrassed you. But you don't have the right to go in there and. And beat him.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And. And who would know better than of that than the chief of police?

[Mike Gibson]

He let his emotions get in the way.

[Mike Ferguson]

He did so. Burke was arrested on December 9, 2015. He resigned from his position in October. On February 26, 2016. Berg pleaded guilty to a civil rights violation and conspiracy to obstruct justice. For almost three years, he and other Suffolk county law enforcement took actions to obstruct a federal civil rights investigation into the assault. So, I mean, not only did he assault this man in 2012, then he spent, like, three years trying to cover it up and get other people to not say anything about it. On November 2, 2016, Burke was sentenced to 46 months and three years of supervised release. Several years later, on August 22, 2023, James Burke was arrested at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial park in Farmingville after exposing himself to an undercover ranger and saying he was interested in oral sex. He tried to leverage his status as a former law enforcement official to get out of the charge. He was charged with offering a sex act, public lewdness, indecent exposure, and criminal solicitation.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on here?

[Mike Ferguson]

What the. What?

[Mike Gibson]

He's over at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Park, a very serious place, Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

And then he's like, hey, doesn't seem

[Mike Ferguson]

like a hookup place, but maybe it is. I don't know where this place is.

[Mike Gibson]

Like, hey, buddy, look, look, I don't have nothing on. Why don't you come over here? And, you know. Anyway.

[Mike Ferguson]

Wearing the brown trench coat.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes. It doesn't go the way he thinks it should go. And then he's like, hey, yeah, I made a bad choice here, but don't. Don't arrest me, because I'm. I'm one of you, man. I'm an officer. I used to be. Just. I won't do it again. Let me go.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's the thing, right? He was severely disgraced officer.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I don't know what. I don't know how he's leveraging that in the first place, but it's not going to work right now. I'm starting to wonder what type of sex toys and pornography were stolen from his car.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And maybe they were a little bit more salacious, I guess, is the word I would use, probably, if they were homosexual in nature. And. And maybe the people who worked for him didn't know that. Yeah, but that's part of what came out after this guy stole his stuff. And that maybe led to some of his anger.

[Mike Gibson]

Might have been.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know. I'm throwing that out there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, we're in the middle of a hunt for a serial killer, and we're dealing with this guy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Who doesn't seem to want to catch the serial killer. He's too busy, involved with covering up the fact that he beat the you know what out of this guy for stealing his sex toys and pornography.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

It's always going to be that question, right? I mean, if. If you didn't block the FBI from getting involved the way they should have

[Mike Ferguson]

been or they wanted to be, or

[Mike Gibson]

they wise they wanted to be, maybe it could have been solved sooner than it was. And maybe somebody's life could have been spared.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, we talk about it in a lot of cases, right? Why would someone, let's say one jurisdiction, turn down the help of someone like the FBI right there. Sometimes there is that kind of, you know, we can do it ourselves. We don't need the help of anybody else. I get that. Maybe you don't want them to come in and steal your thunder because you think you're gonna solve it. This seems like a much different situation.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I wonder how much of this was he didn't want the FBI involved in Go Go beach because he didn't want them involved in him. What he. His stuff.

[Mike Gibson]

I think that's probably what it was. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he thought the two might cross over or something like that.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I get it. You're always going to have. Well, hopefully it starts thinning out over time. But, you know, you got these egos, right? My department to handle this. We don't need you FBI or we don't need you state police to come in here and tell us how to do what we know how to do best. You're going to get that. But in this case, I think you hit it right on the point. It's probably. He was like, if they're not here, they can't find out about this, this other thing. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On September 12, 2017, Suffolk County Prosecutor Robert Biancavilla said a convicted killer may be responsible for more murders connected to Gilgo Beach. But the investigation was ongoing. I. I don't. Yeah. I mean, again, I don't think that is a. He's not going out on a limb there.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

The chances of that are probably pretty good.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

John Bit Rolf was arrested in 2014 after his DNA was found on the bodies of two sex workers, Rita Tangretti and Colleen McNamee, who were beaten to death in 1993 and 1994 respectively. 31 year old Rita Tangretti was found on November 3, 1993 in a wooded area off Esplanade Drive in East Patchogue on Long Island. I'm probably butchering that one as well.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, I think you nailed it.

[Mike Ferguson]

I doubt it.

[Mike Gibson]

You were spot on.

[Mike Ferguson]

20 year old Colleen McNamee was killed on January 30, 1994 and found in a wooded area south of the Long Island Expressway. They both died from strangulation and blunt force trauma to the head. Bit Rolf was a married father of two. He was 27 at the time of the murders. The DNA match was made through his brother, who was convicted of violating a protective order in 2013 and had to provide a DNA sample.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, what's the luck of that, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, if you're a killer, that's bad luck.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

For you. You've done a pretty good job staying out of the databases, staying off police radar. All of a sudden your brother goes and messes it up and you get caught for murder.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now for us, that's great. We love that.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely. We do.

[Mike Ferguson]

But if you're a killer, you're not happy about that. Bit Rolf was convicted in May 2017 and sentenced to 25 years for each murder. Investigators noted a few potential links to the Gilgo beach murders. Bit Rolf lived in Manorville, where the remains of Jessica Taylor were found. He was a hunter who reportedly enjoyed killing animals. He was also a carpenter and had access to various saws, which was relevant because we talked about it. Right. Several of the bodies on Gilgo beach were dismembered. The daughter of Rita Tangretti was also close friends with Melissa Bertholome. Oh, one of the Gilgo beach four.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Melissa's mother noted that she had a lot of calls to Manorville from her phone before she died. In September 2019, state officials determined that investigators could ask the FBI to use genetic genealogy to find potential relatives of the victims or suspects. And, you know, that 2019, that's, you know, it was starting to ramp up pretty big.

[Mike Gibson]

It was.

[Mike Ferguson]

We had the Golden State Killer, and, man, we just have not let off the gas since. Genetic genealogy has been amazing.

[Mike Gibson]

Pretty important.

[Mike Ferguson]

But why would you not want the FBI to help out with something like that? Think of the resources.

[Mike Gibson]

I never can understand why anybody would say no to the FBI.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. In January 2020, former Suffolk County Police Commissioner Geraldine Hart, a former FBI agent who joined the force in 2018, tried to revive the investigation by releasing a key piece of evidence. It was a man's belt with two initials carved into it. The initials were H and W, or if you looked at it upside down, M and H. Yeah. The department also set up the Gilgo news website, hoping someone would leave a tip that would progress the investigation. Commissioner Hart said about the belt, per cbs, we do believe that this item was handled by the suspect and did not belong to any of the victims. So, you know, here you have somebody come in from the FBI. She's now the commissioner. She's not, you know, caught up in some big scandal. Sounds like she's doing a good job, but it's a big deal.

[Mike Gibson]

It is a big deal.

[Mike Ferguson]

You have a piece of evidence that you believe was handled by the suspect because it presumably didn't belong to any of the suspects, but it also has what appears to be initials on. So, okay, we got DNA, we got initials. We might be on to something here.

[Mike Gibson]

Do you have your initials on your belt? No. How about that belt buckle? How about you get your name on that?

[Mike Ferguson]

No.

[Mike Gibson]

You don't have that gigantic belt buckle.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I still have it, but it doesn't have my initials on it.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's got a cowboy riding a bull.

[Mike Gibson]

Is that what it has on yours?

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay, I won that at the rodeo.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah. You did not. Oh, that's funny, man. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So on May 28, 2020, Jane Doe number six was finally identified using genetic genealogy. The woman found on gilgo beach on April 4, 2011, was identified as 24 year old Valerie Mack. Valerie, who also went by the name Melissa Taylor went missing in 2000. At the time, she was working as an escort in Philadelphia and was last seen by her family in Port Republic, New Jersey. And this is interesting, right? You and I talk a lot about genetic genealogy in the search for killers, but we've also talked about it as a tool used to help identify suspects, and it's equally valuable there. Obviously, we want to find killers and all that, but giving unidentified victims their names back, it's unbelievably huge.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

As well.

[Mike Gibson]

So some sense, even more important.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think. I think you could say that. And we talked about it earlier, but her partial remains were found in 2000 in Manorville, where the remains of Jessica Taylor were also found in 2003. So Valerie had finally been identified, but her killer had not. Meanwhile, Shannon Gilbert's family, they were still seeking answers to explain her suspicious death. The family experienced another tragedy in July 2016, when Shannon's younger sister Sarah stabbed their mother Mary to death.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow.

[Mike Ferguson]

She was later convicted of murder and sentenced to 25 years in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, unbelievable.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. I mean, we're talking about a serial killer and the victims and then wrapped up in all of this or all these kind of, I guess you'd call them, side stories that are just. I mean, they're fascinating. You know, I'm sure there's a better word to talk about that. I guess, you know, my question would be, you know, how much of what happened with Sarah was related to Shannon's disappearance, her death, the. The tumultuous things that the family had to deal with.

[Mike Gibson]

But if we think about, you know, the cause of Shannon's death, you know, we don't know at this as we're talking about it, but if. If it was because of mental illness, is it possible that her sister suffered from something like that as well, and maybe that had something to do with her killing her mom? Yeah, I mean, just. It's tragic for sure, all the way around.

[Mike Ferguson]

When asked By CBS In 2020, Suffolk County Police Commissioner Hart said that Shannon Gilbert's cause of death was inconclusive. And that's, you know, that's interesting because, you know, accidental drowning. Right. Was thrown out there. No foul play involved. The family, obviously, they didn't believe that.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

They did their own autopsy. They were doing their own investigative work. Now the police. The new police commissioner comes out and says that the cause of death was inconclusive. In May 2022, the Suffolk County Police released Shannon Gilbert's full 911 call. The Suffolk County Police said Shannon's Exact cause and manner of death couldn't be determined. But based on the evidence, the facts, and the totality of the circumstances, the prevailing opinion of Shannon's death, while tragic, was not murder and most likely not criminal. In an interview with cbs, former Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison said, it's an unfortunate incident, but right now, we believe that she just ran into the marsh and unfortunately drowned. So, I mean, in the one sense, I do like coming out, the police commissioner coming out and saying it's inconclusive. Now they're saying, most likely, we think this. I don't like it when people are so adamant that something happened a certain way, when they really don't have the, you know, the facts, let's say, to. To back it up. It's kind of like when we talk about manner of death or. Or cause of death when. When you could leave it as undetermined, but they don't. And they say natural causes or, you know, they say something so definitive, when you look at the evidence and it seems so up in the air.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Why. Why box it in when you don't have to?

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Because it sets a lot of things in motion or prevents things from being put into motion. The problem is Shannon's family, they still suspected foul play, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Them coming out and saying this stuff isn't going to change their mind. And we said it in part one. I just said it a minute ago. They ordered a private autopsy, and it was conducted by Michael Bottom.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I actually, maybe about a month ago, watched some of the old autopsy shows on hbo.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

When I was younger, those were shows that fascinated me.

[Mike Gibson]

Same here.

[Mike Ferguson]

And they were all, you know, cases that he had done or at least cases that he talked about. And I always thought he was a, you know, kind of a fascinating guy. He was the former New York chief medical examiner. There was not enough evidence to determine a cause of death, but according to him, the findings were consistent with homicidal strangulation. Part of Shannon's neck bone was missing from her remains. So, again, I think that right there tells you all you need to know about determining a cause of death. If it could go either way. Right. If he could see it that way, and another man, a medical examiner, could see it as accidental drowning.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You got to say it's undetermined.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you have multiple experts saying different things, things former Chief of Detectives Dominic Verone said about the accident theory and the way Shannon's belongings were found in the marsh near her body. She's disoriented. She's in a frenzy. You have to understand the manner in which these items were found. Very consistent with someone losing these items as they're running. Okay, why are you running? Why is she running?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, maybe still panicky, like she was when she was in that neighborhood, going from house to house, saying, you know, I need help, help, help, help. I need help, help, help. That we talked about in episode one. You know, maybe she's still in that mode or.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or is it because she's being chased

[Mike Gibson]

or is she being chased by whatever she thinks is chasing her or actually is chasing. Chasing her, which could be the truth,

[Mike Ferguson]

because we're at a different point, right? She's in a different place.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe she came across something she shouldn't have came across, or maybe she caught

[Mike Ferguson]

the eye of somebody who just happened to be out there. Suffolk Homicide Section Commanding Officer Kevin Breyer explained that Shannon wandered into marshland where reeds can grow up to 12ft high. One cannot tell where the highway is or where the bay is. Some of the brush is impenetrable. He noted that Shannon's body was found north of a trench about three quarters of a mile from where she was last seen. Former Suffolk County Police Commissioner Richard Dormer said at the time that investigators believe Shannon drowned or succumbed to the elements. He said she traveled at least half a mile, three quarters of a mile on foot through that muck. It would be very easy to get exhausted and fall down and not be able to move any further. And I get that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, if you're looking at different scenarios, different possibilities, I think you have to look at that one. You also have to look at maybe homicidal strangulation. I don't. I don't know. Look at them both. To leave them both open, family attorney John Ray and his colleagues went to the march to see if Shannon could have traveled through the area. Ray noted that it would have been almost impossible for Shannon to walk through the area without cutting her feet badly. That's interesting, assuming she was barefoot. So they do a test, and they're like, oh, no way you could walk through all this stuff without cutting your feet. Now you can debate the accuracy of all these different things. The family also believes the police should have done more to investigate Dr. Peter Hackett. And we mentioned it, right, in part one, how this guy kept inserting himself into the case by contacting Shannon Gilbert's mother and claiming that Shannon stayed at this halfway house that he ran. Now, he later denied calling her, said that he'd never seen her, but phone records proved otherwise. The family filed a wrongful death suit against Dr. Hackett, claiming he improperly treated Shannon. According to 48 Hours, Dr. Hackett was known to provide medical treatment out of his home. Two neighbors signed affidavits, one claiming Dr. Hackett gave him a prescription injectable steroid, another claiming Hackett provided prescriptions for residents of Oak Beach. Now, he admitted to treating friends and neighbors, but he denied treating or seeing Shannon Gilbert.

[Mike Gibson]

So he's just going to claim that that never happened.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which. Yeah, I think he keeps saying, didn't do it, didn't see her, didn't.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Even though, you know, he has said some things to the contract contrary, and I think some phone records didn't support some of the things that he said. Attorney John Ray said at a press conference, there's no evidence whatsoever that Shannon Gilbert died a natural death. Those three theories have been put forward repeatedly by Suffolk county police. And I get it. This happens all the time. Right. The police come up with their theory. The family is not happy. They're not buying it.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And they want their own or independent people to. To take a look at it. And it's not unusual for experts to disagree. The only part I ever have a problem with is, like I said, a determination made as to the manner or cause of death without really concrete evidence to that fact. I get it. We all have theories, and they're speculation, and you can make educated guesses and people do, but if you can't be 100% sure with provable, you know, facts, evidence, just leave it as undetermined.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And until something comes along that. That does back one version up, I mean.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, at least the family's pushing on it. Well, you know, I don't how much pushing is going now with, you know,

[Mike Ferguson]

with the death of her mom.

[Mike Gibson]

Her mom and her sister's in prison, but who's left to push? Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. We don't know. But in part three of the Long Island Serial Killer episodes, we'll cover how a Suffolk county task force identified the suspect, and we'll get into, you know, his arrest, but also get into his background.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Which is critical. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because I think people really fascinated by this guy. Not for what he did, obviously, but who he was.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And, you know, that's true. I think for a lot of serial killers, you think of a guy like John Wayne Gacy, people are horrified by what he did. But look at the man's life.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And what he portrayed to those around him, and then, you know, find out what he actually did. How could somebody play both of those roles. Yeah, I mean, some of that stuff is really fascinating. I mean, it just is. So that is it for another episode of True Crime all the time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[Mike Gibson]

Sam.

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