Long Island Serial Killer Part 3

Summary

True Crime All The Time — Long Island Serial Killer Part 3 (Episode 502) Release Date: June 1, 2026 Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson

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Episode Overview

In the third installment of the Long Island Serial Killer series, hosts Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson (Gibby) detail the breakthroughs that led to the arrest of Rex Heuermann. The episode explores the renewed efforts by law enforcement to revisit evidence, leverage advances in technology, unravel the suspect's double life, and highlight the ripple effects on his family, colleagues, and community. The hosts maintain their signature balance: presenting disturbing true crime details with gravity, while occasionally lightening tension with their conversational wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Break in the Case & Task Force Formation

Timestamp: 03:32–04:33

• In February 2022, Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison and DA Ray Tierney formed the Gilgo Beach Homicide Investigation Task Force.
• The task force initiated a comprehensive review of all evidence, leading to promising new leads.

Quote:
"It's kind of hard to say, but... yeah, but I'm funny."
—Mike Ferguson (04:35)

Technology and Cell Phone Evidence

04:46–09:38

• Investigators analyzed old phone records and connected a pattern: the use of burner phones to contact victims Amber Costello, Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Megan Waterman, and Melissa Barthelemy.
• 2012 analysis placed the origin of most burner calls in a tiny area of Massapequa Park, known as "The Box."
• Description of the suspect (large man, first-gen Chevy Avalanche) further narrowed the search, pointing to Rex Heuermann.

Quote:
"An ogre driving a Chevy Avalanche shouldn't be that hard to find."
—Mike Ferguson (06:55)

• Phone records placed Heuermann’s personal phone at the same locations/times burner phones were used to contact victims.
• Each burner phone was used then disposed of post-murder, tying seven separate phones to Heuermann and the victims.

Quote:
"It's not like they're just connecting him to one phone. They connected him to seven different phones, and each one of the previous ones was disposed of right after a victim died."
—Mike Ferguson (09:13)

Further Digital Evidence & Patterns

09:39–12:34

• Police observed Heuermann making payments (e.g., for Tinder) using burner phones and American Express.
• Three fake email accounts linked to burner numbers; he even used an alter ego "Rex West."
• Heuermann’s online searches included information on the LISK investigation, sadistic/child pornography, and questions like, "Why hasn't the Long Island serial killer been caught?"

Quote:
"One specific search was, why hasn't the Long island serial killer been caught? I guess it's a good thing the guy didn't have ChatGPT back in the day, you know, because he would have been asking it all kinds of questions."
—Mike Ferguson (12:34)

DNA Breakthrough

13:59–15:53

• Surveillance led to collecting Heuermann’s discarded pizza box for DNA.
• Hair found on Megan Waterman's remains matched DNA from Heuermann's pizza crust; 99.96% of the North American population excluded.
• Advancements in mitochondrial DNA testing allowed old, degraded hair samples to be tied to suspects.
• Multiple items from Heuermann’s home tested positive for his wife’s hair, likely transfer rather than direct involvement.

The Arrest and Immediate Aftermath

20:13–24:02

• Heuermann was arrested in his midtown Manhattan office July 13, 2023, carrying a burner phone.
• Charged with three murders; not guilty plea; considered chief suspect in a fourth.
• Suffolk County Police Commissioner called Heuermann “a demon that walks among us.”

Quote:
"Rex Herman is a demon that walks among us. A predator that ruined families."
—Commissioner Rodney Harrison (23:09)

Double Life & Impact on Family/Neighbors

24:02–32:36

• The episode examines patterns among serial killers: apparent normalcy, maintaining jobs and families while committing heinous crimes.
• Neighbors described Heuermann as "quiet," "never really bothers anybody," or "a regular guy."
• Deep attachment to his childhood home and controlling mother; classmates noted he was a "mama's boy."

Biography & Background

31:57–39:48

• Born September 13, 1963, in Massapequa Park; lived in the same home most of his life, eventually buying it from his mother but never changing it.
• Career: founded architectural firm RH Consultants; worked with notable clients (Target, Footlocker, etc.)
• Maintained a public persona as a specialist in city building codes.

Family Details & Effects

44:44–54:03

• Married twice; second wife Asa Eller (from Iceland), two children.
• Asa typically spent summers in Iceland, aligning with windows of victim disappearances.
• The family lived modestly despite Heuermann’s apparent financial means; the state seized nearly 300 firearms and a vault with 92 handgun permits.
• Asa, shocked and devastated, immediately filed for divorce after his arrest; struggled with health issues and finances post-arrest.
• Victim assistance funds were set up for the family.

Workplace & Social Interactions

54:07–57:12

• Former colleagues shocked, described Heuermann as nerdy, verbose—a “know-it-all,” not frightening.
• Some noted odd, borderline inappropriate behavior: intrusive comments, asking women to clean, or making weight remarks.
• A former escort recalled a chilling date with Heuermann, who enthusiastically discussed the Gilgo Beach murders ("He seemed like somebody who, as they talked about it, was kind of reliving it in their head." —Nicole Brass, 58:03).

Community and Broad Impact

59:46–63:31

• Investigation expanded to other states—he owned property in Las Vegas and South Carolina.
• More sex workers came forward with stories of contact with Heuermann.
• Defense attorney Michael Brown labeled state evidence “circumstantial” and claimed Heuermann had already been convicted in the media, but hosts dispute this point.

Quote:
"When you have DNA that is 99.9, you know, 96. Do you need an eyewitness?"
—Mike Gibson (62:48)

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• On his mother: "Classmates previously said Rex was bizarrely close to his controlling mother and described him as a mama's boy." (34:57)
• On living in the past: "He kept everything exactly the same from his childhood." (36:13)
• On neighbor reactions: "We've been here for almost 30 years, and the guy's been quiet. Never really bothers anybody." —Neighbor Atn Devilier (30:32)
• On the scope of his double life: "He had a wife, he had two kids. He was an architect. And then, I guess at nighttime, turned into a monster." —Commissioner Harrison (23:42)
• On arrest: "This man is like the burner phone king." —Ferguson (20:13)
• Colleague anecdote: "He replied, oh, yes, I can." —Ferguson reading about a co-worker’s encounter when she thought she couldn't be found on a cruise (56:23)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Task Force creation & beginning of new investigation: 03:32–05:00
• Phone technology, "the Box", and burner links: 05:11–09:38
• DNA and mitochondrial DNA evidence: 13:59–16:05
• Arrest and charges against Heuermann: 20:13–23:42
• Police and DA public statements: 23:08, 23:42, 25:03
• Victim impact on community, family, and workplaces: 26:55–32:36, 44:44–54:03, 54:07–58:03
• Notable survivor account (Nicole Brass): 57:14–58:44
• Neighbors' accounts and public perception: 30:12–31:54
• Defense attorney's statements & hosts’ rebuttal: 60:59–63:31

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Thematic Wrap-Up & Bridge to Next Episode

• The episode closes as the hosts reflect on the scope of the evidence and the challenge ahead for prosecutors, noting that while the Gilgo Four cases are solid against Heuermann, establishing connections to other victims remains a challenge.
• In Part 4, they promise to cover additional charges, evidence, and the potential resolution of the case.

Quote:
"But we got a voicemail. You want to check that out?"
—Mike Ferguson (64:29)
[Transition to listener voicemail and show close]

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Summary Takeaways

• Renewed law enforcement focus and modern forensic technology (especially DNA and digital forensics) played a central role in unmasking Rex Heuermann as the Long Island Serial Killer suspect.
• The suspect maintained a secretive double-life, fooling family, neighbors, and colleagues for decades while living out disturbing compulsions.
• The hosts highlight the deep collateral damage caused by such crimes—on loved ones, the local community, and the broader circle of acquaintances.
• Many who knew Heuermann saw only a peculiar but otherwise ordinary man, reinforcing the true crime axiom: monsters often wear the mask of the mundane.

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For listeners seeking an in-depth account of how detectives finally broke open one of America’s most infamous unsolved serial killer cases—and the chilling normalcy of the accused—this is an unmissable episode.

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

You know folks, when Gibby and I first started this podcast, we had no idea what we were doing. We had so many worries. Would anybody listen? Would we just make fools of ourselves? But now we know we were right to go ahead and try it because look, we're 10 years later. But it also helps to have a partner on your side like Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Gymshark to true crime all the time to brands just getting started. You can get started with your own design studio. They have ready to use templates that help build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style. Shopify helps you get the word out. Like you have a whole marketing team behind you. You can easily create email and social media campaigns. And if you get stuck, Shopify is always around to share advice with their award winning 24. 7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.comtcat go to shopify.comtcat that's shopify.comtcatt

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[Voicemail Caller / Other]

Foreign.

[Mike Ferguson]

And welcome to episode 502 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm doing good, man. And you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

This episode is going to come out kind of after Crimecon.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On the Sunday where we're coming back. Obviously we're recording it before we go, so we can't really talk about how it went, but I'm assuming it'll be great.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. We have some stories to talk about when we get back.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, next week. We'll talk about next week. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Chloe aired.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Aired.

[Mike Ferguson]

Stacy.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Stacy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Claire. Matthias.

[Mike Gibson]

Thanks, Claire.

[Mike Ferguson]

Constance.

[Mike Gibson]

I love some Constance.

[Mike Ferguson]

Katie.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Katie?

[Mike Ferguson]

And Sally Everheart jumped out at her highest level.

[Mike Gibson]

Everheart with a big old heart.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. So we appreciate the new support. And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Wendy Webster.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, thanks. Double, double, double double W. Okay, that

[Mike Ferguson]

almost didn't come out. We appreciate all the support we get. We have a brand new episode out right now on Unsolved where we're talking about 22 year old Franchesca Alvarado. A devoted single mother. She took this trip to Atlantic City, supposed to be a one night trip in March 2002, but she never returned.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then over a year later, parts of her remains washed up on the beach. And then more parts started washing up.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Try to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. It's a tragic but very mysterious story, so make sure you check it out. All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime? All the Time I am. We're on to part three on the Long island serial Killer. In part two, we covered the discovery of additional bodies in the Gilgo beach area, the links among the victims, and followed the investigation through 2022. In part three will cover how a Suffolk county task force identified the suspect as well as his arrest and background. In February 2022, Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison and Suffolk County DA Rare, rare, rare. Ray.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Tyranny. Formed the Gilgo Beach Homicide Investigation Task Force. Investigators initiated what they called a comprehensive review of every item of evidence in the case.

[Mike Gibson]

I think that's a good thing to do.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's a great thing to do. It also must be, you know, a pretty painstaking undertaking. It's kind of hard to say, but. Yeah, but I'm funny.

[Mike Gibson]

I think in that line of business it's going to be like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I think a lot of things when you're, you know, referring to that type of investigative work, I'm sure is a little tedious.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, looking through and maybe re. Looking through things.

[Mike Gibson]

They always say it just can be one tiny little thing.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I think that's true.

[Mike Gibson]

That can, you know, take the case in a certain direction.

[Mike Ferguson]

Just six weeks later, on March 14, 2022, they identified a man named Rex Herman as a suspect. The police looked further into Amber Costello's phone records from 2010. Her roommate had mentioned that a client was calling her non stop before her disappearance and murder. The police knew that the client used a burner phone. They also knew that Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Megan Waterman and Melissa Barthelemy also received calls from burner phones.

[Mike Gibson]

So there's a tie in most likely there.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we talked quite a bit about it. The similarities right. Between these victims and the burner phones was one of those. Back in 2012, the police, with the help of the FBI, determined that most of the burner phone calls received by the Gilgo 4 connected to cell towers inside a small area of Massapequa Park, a village on Long Island. This area became known as the Box.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's cool what technology can do. And they can zone in on that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. I like the sound effects.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're assuming that's why they're called it the Box, because they've, like, boxed it in.

[Mike Gibson]

Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

Based on the description of the suspect in the Amber Costello case, the 2022 task force began searching for a large man who lived in this area and owned a first generation Chevy Avalanche.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, odds are good they should be able to find somebody that matches that description.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, an ogre driving a Chevy Avalanche shouldn't be that hard to find. A Chevy Avalanche was registered to Rex Sherman at the time of the murders. And it's six foot four. You know, he kind of did match the description. And I'm not saying every guy that six, four is an ogre. No, but, you know, he wasn't Slim Jim the Raindrop Dodger either.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it kind of looks like an ogre.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's. He's pretty big guy. Not just tall. He's a little poorly as well. The discovery of the Avalanche led to a comprehensive investigation of Heuerman. When investigators checked his personal phone records, they discovered his phone was in the same area as the burner phones when they were used to contact a victim in Massapequa park or in midtown Manhattan, where Heuerman worked. This was also true for the calls received by Melissa Barthelemy's family in 2009. And we talked about those. Right. They were nasty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, the things that he said about Melissa, the things that, that he said about her sister Amanda. Just vile stuff.

[Mike Gibson]

But here's a guy thinking, you know what? I'm going to burner. I'm going to get a burner phone and I'm going to beat the system.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sure.

[Mike Gibson]

But he doesn't think enough about it. Right. Because he's. He's still bringing his own phone with them. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Carrying it around just because he's not using it. Yeah, yeah, I. I get it. But it also may be. Could be a couple of things. Could be not understanding fully technology, but it also could be thinking, well, they're never going to connect me to the burner phone, so what does it matter?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

Where my regular phone is. According to court documents, investigators could find no instance where human was in a separate location from these other cell phones when such a communication event occurred.

[Mike Gibson]

Not good for him.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, not. Not good. Not. Not the nail in the coffin, but it's not good at all. In total, there were seven burner phones. Shortly after each victim died, the phones were disposed of. Now, when you look at it like that, it's even worse, Right?

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's not like they just connecting him to one phone. They connected him to seven different phones, and each one of the previous ones was disposed of right after a victim died.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And those burner phones were connected to the victims. Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I. I think if you're investigators. Right. You're maybe in the war room making these discoveries. And, I mean, people are probably high fiving.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're probably cheering because this is such a big, you know, unsolved case at the time. In 2023, officers observed Heuermann putting money on one of his accounts at a cell phone store in midtown Manhattan. He used the burner phones to send selfies to solicit and arrange for sexual activity. According to prosecutors, his American Express records revealed recurring Google payment payments made by Rex to Tinder linked to a burner phone. A review of call records for two additional burner phones revealed both phones were used extensively between 2021 and 2023 for prostitution related contacts.

[Mike Gibson]

So obviously, he had a pension. It's a great word for sex workers.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep, I think that's very safe to say. The task force also documented three email accounts using fake names such as John Springfield, Thomas Hawk, and Hunter 1903 A3, all linked to the burner numbers.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, the good thing there is we did not hear the name Rex West.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, I was going to add that in. They also found the name Rex west associated to one of these burner phones. Between March 2022 and June 2023, one of the accounts linked to Heuerman searched the Internet for sites related to active and known serial killers. The specific disappearances and murders of Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Melissa Bartholomew, Megan Waterman and Amber Costello, and the investigation into their murders, as well as thousands of searches related to sex workers, sadistic and torture related pornography, and even child pornography. Wow. Okay. I mean, obviously, we're talking about a very nasty, vile individual. We know that based on the murders and everything, but, you know, it just keeps getting worse. Right. The more that comes out, I think, you know, if you take all of this stuff in a. In a vacuum by itself, I say this in a lot of episodes, okay, it doesn't make you look good, but would it be enough to convict? No, probably not. But you start stacking all of these things on top of each other, and it does become very slam dunkish at a certain point.

[Mike Gibson]

But look at this guy. I mean, he. He's kind of full of himself, right? He's going out searching on what he's done.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but is that unusual for a serial killer?

[Mike Gibson]

No. They like that, right? They like to read about themselves.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. Now we're in the Internet age, so this guy can very easily search for things about, you know, crimes and the things that he's done. The other thing is, we know that in the past, serial killers have revisited crime scenes. I mean, they do all kinds of stuff. One specific search was, why hasn't the Long island serial killer been caught? I guess it's a good thing the guy didn't have chat GPT back in the day, you know, because he would have been asking it all kinds of questions. The task force began surveilling Heuerman at the beginning of 2023. On January 26th of that year, the surveillance team recovered a pizza box that he'd thrown into a trash can on Fifth Avenue, which was sent to the Suffolk county crime lab for analysis. Right. They got to get the guy's DNA. And I'll be honest with you, man. I'm always fascinated by the links that the authorities will go to to try to get someone's DNA, whether it's, you know, tailing them, surveilling them, waiting for them to drink out of a straw, and then, you know, pouncing and picking it with a glove and throwing it into a baggie or whatever it is. Now, a pizza box is a little different, but, you know, DNA's on everything, pretty much.

[Mike Gibson]

So my DNA is all over here.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know. I'm not happy about it either. On April 28, 2023, a detective hand delivered a male hair found on Megan Waterman's body that had been presented as evidence to the same lab. On June 12th of that year. The lab compared the DNA from the pizza crust and the hair and determined that the profiles were the same and that 99.96% of the North American population could be excluded.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's huge.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is now, is that, you know, the one in however many trillion numbers that we're hearing, you know, nowadays. No, but it's still a. A very, very high likelihood that this is him. And then again, as we're stacking the building blocks of a case, that's just another thing that is, you know, going to doom him. Prosecutors wrote it's significant that human cannot be excluded from the male hair recovered near the bottom of the burlap used to restrain and transport Megan Waterman's naked and deceased body. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's basically saying he's the one that did that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. To the exclusion of, what, 99.9% of all the people in North America.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

However, advancements in DNA technology allowed for testing with mitochondrial DNA of, you know, hairs that were found with each victim, but they were worried because they were too degraded to test for DNA with kind of the old techniques.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So the. These advancements were huge.

[Mike Gibson]

Makes it tough, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Well, it would have been impossible if they had tried to do this, you know, let's say five, ten, maybe years earlier.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, again, thank goodness for technology.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's helped solve a lot of cases, especially in the area of DNA. For sure. Back in July 2022, 11 bottles were collected from a trash can outside Heuermann's home and send for DNA testing. DNA profiles were generated from the bottles and were tested against previously tested hair samples from the remains of Megan Waterman and Amber Costello. The hair belonged to Herman's wife, ASA Ellera. However, investigators did not believe his wife was involved in the murders. And the hair could, you know, be explained by something like as simple as a transfer because they did live together. Yeah, I mean, I don't think everybody realizes. I'm sure a lot of people do, because, you know, our viewers and listeners, they're smart. Right. But I don't know that everybody realizes that, you know, we're just transferring hairs and DNA all over the place.

[Mike Gibson]

Like I said, mine's all over here.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know, and please stop saying it. I've heard it enough, and I don't want to think about it, but, I mean, how hard would it be for. You know, we ate dinner together tonight before we started recording our episodes, and it was me, you, my wife, my daughter. I'm sure my wife's hair's all over the place, right? Yeah, my hair's all over the place. How hard would it be to attach to your clothing? Then you get into your vehicle, you drive home. Now, my hair. My wife's hair is in your home.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Your. Your wife's hair or your daughter's hair? Let's not go as far with your hair, but from the back.

[Mike Ferguson]

I have some in the back still that could, you know, theoretically fall out.

[Mike Gibson]

But you have to think, you know, that's very possible.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm sure I do have, you know, somebody in your family's hair there. I mean, or at least your dogs or cats, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're here every week, so it's gonna happen. The chances of it being in your vehicle and. And probably transferring it into your home, I'd say are pretty high.

[Mike Gibson]

But the fact that they have his wife's hair, I think that's a. That's another confirmation, right? I mean, it's not his, but it's his wife's. And how else could that get there?

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, either she's involved, which they don't think she is, or it's because he's a murderer and he happened to have the, you know, one of her hairs on him, and it somehow ended up on the victim. A hair from Amber Costello's remains was tested and also matched the DNA on a bottle. Prosecutors wrote that this meant it is likely that the burlap tape, vehicles and other items used in the murders came from Heuermann's home. I mean, I think the one thing you'd have to say is it is not looking good for Rex Heuermann. No, I mean, they are just building, you know, brick after brick against him. This is the story of the 1. As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Rex Sherman was arrested at his office in Midtown Manhattan on July 13, 2023. At the time of his arrest, he was carrying a burner phone linked to an email account used to conduct suspicious online searches. This man is like the burner phone king.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he probably owned some stock in it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I'm assuming a large part of that is because he's married.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Doesn't want his wife knowing all of this stuff. I mean, this is. Aside from the murders.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is because he is cheating. He's obviously on Tinder and soliciting sex workers and. And doing all this other stuff in addition to what they believe are these murders that he committed. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, he's taken ogre selfies.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Sending them out to, you know, I

[Mike Ferguson]

think he's probably got it a little further south, but maybe. I. I don't know what this guy was doing. Oh, man. He was charged with multiple counts of murder for the deaths of Melissa, Megan and Amber. Hearman appeared in court on July 14, and he pleaded not guilty to three counts of first degree murder and three counts of second degree murder. Court documents released after his arrest noted that while he wasn't charged with the murder of Maureen Brainard Barnes, he was the main suspect. So to me, that just means they didn't. They didn't find any DNA.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Match. But, you know, let's go back to, you know, where were the victims dumped? Right. The proximity. It's hard not to believe that one person didn't commit all those murders, so how could he not be the main suspect? But there is a certain level of evidence needed. Right. To. To charge. Heuerman's defense attorney, Michael J. Brown, told reporters that the accusations were circumstantial and Heman denied any involvement. He said the only thing he did say as he was in tears was, I didn't do this. He's distraught. He's clearly distraught about the charges here.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, tears.

[Mike Ferguson]

His six foot four ogre just crying his eyes out. His eyes out. But, yeah, I am sure he is clearly distraught. Who wouldn't be if they were charged with multiple murders? Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Because he knows what that means. It's not going to be good.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Now, if you didn't do it, you're distraught for a number of reasons, but even if you did it, you're still distraught because you got caught.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. So. And what's he gonna say, yeah, I did it? Yeah, some people do, but not most.

[Mike Gibson]

At least not up front. They're not.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not in the beginning. You don't want to cave. Right in the beginning. During a press conference, Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison told the media, Rex Herman is a demon that walks among us. A predator that ruined families. Man's a demon right here. Yeah, I don't argue with that one bit. Commissioner Harrison added, Herman had a double life. He had a wife, he had two kids. He was an architect. And then, I guess at nighttime, turned into a monster.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, we've heard this before with other serial killers, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of them do lead double lives. And when it all comes out, their families are Shocked.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, they came. They can't even comprehend it, and. And I don't even know how they. They pull it off. I mean, when you think about it, I don't either.

[Mike Ferguson]

I kind of sometimes think back to, you know, we both love the show Dexter, and obviously, at a certain point in that show, he got married.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And he. I mean, he was leading a double life from the get go, but then he was really leading a double life and had to be even more careful because, you know, he's got a wife, and then at some point, he has a child and. And all that.

[Mike Gibson]

I think about the second episode we ever did on Decat. Well, that you did on TK of the Iceman, and then.

[Mike Ferguson]

Were you not there?

[Mike Gibson]

We. We redid it later.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, that's right. I did. I had to do it by myself for some reason. Why was that?

[Mike Gibson]

Because you wanted to see how the podcast would go without Gibby sitting next to you.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, that's true. I didn't like it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did not like it.

[Mike Gibson]

But I remember, you know, he was like. When he was home, he was like this perfect family guy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, and.

[Mike Ferguson]

And actually a good family guy.

[Mike Gibson]

But we know when he left, he was killing people. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

He was a serious, serious Hitman. Suffolk County DA Raymond Tierney revealed that the investigation involved over 300 subpoenas and search warrants. That does seem like a very high number.

[Mike Gibson]

That is a high number.

[Mike Ferguson]

The task force had to balance evidence gathering with public safety. They wanted to allow the grand jury investigation to go further, but they also felt like they had to take this guy down. Yeah, and I. I understand the balance there, but I think they did the right thing, because this guy's walking around with another burner phone. He is talking with or soliciting sex workers. I mean, isn't it just a matter of time before he claims another victim?

[Mike Gibson]

Very true. You ever been in part of a grand jury?

[Mike Ferguson]

I have not. Have you?

[Mike Gibson]

Part of a grand jury? No.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is the subject of a grand jury. I've definitely not been that. D A. Tierney said when we decided to take down the case, we. You know, it was a sudden decision. We did see him contacting a number of sex workers using a burner phone, which obviously is concerning. Tierney said about Heuerman's Internet searches, there was a lot of torture porn and depictions of women being abused, being raped and being killed.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, this guy was sick.

[Mike Ferguson]

He was sick in his actions, but also sick in his fetishes.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And. And I'm sure some of that maybe had a. Or played a large part in what he ultimately decided to do in real life. Right. Some people can keep their fetishes, even when they're sick, separate from real life. Doesn't sound like he could or didn't want to. Either way.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. He decided to cross into the real world.

[Mike Ferguson]

Herman was conducting searches on the task force, even on the victims. According to Tyranny, he was searching for pictures of their families and trying to locate those individuals. Why? So he could call them and harass them. Drive by their house and get a sick thrill out of that.

[Mike Gibson]

I think he really did get off, maybe literally as well on doing that.

[Mike Ferguson]

I assumed when you said that you were, you meant literally, but I. I

[Mike Gibson]

think he looked at the family members too, because I think if he found somebody that resembled the victim, I think it really did something for him. And to the point. Maybe he wanted to see if he could get a hold of them.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe. Yeah, you might be onto something there. The police spent the next 12 days searching Herman's property. They dug in the yard and seized 279 weapons.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow. Wow. Whoa.

[Mike Ferguson]

And 92 handgun permits from a walk in vault in the basement. Investigators also took framed pictures and a doll from the home and searched a nearby storage unit. They brought in ground penetrating sonar and cadaver dogs.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm trying to think what this doll must have looked like.

[Mike Ferguson]

Did you say doll or dog?

[Mike Gibson]

The doll.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, doll.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I can picture what the dog looked like.

[Mike Gibson]

No, the doll.

[Mike Ferguson]

Regular doll.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, I mean.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I. I don't know what they mean by doll.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know if we're talking about like a Cabbage Patch Kid here or like that doll. You have the life size variety that you keep under your bed, which you always tell me not to talk about, but I'm bringing it up anyway. But let's go back to 279 weapons.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, I. I understand a lot of people, they like to have something to defend themselves, to defend their home. I don't know why anybody needs 279 weapons. Unless you're going to start an uprising or arm a small militia.

[Mike Gibson]

92 handguns.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, well, 92 handgun permits.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, permits.

[Mike Ferguson]

But that would mean What? You probably have 92 handguns somewhere.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Why so many handguns?

[Mike Ferguson]

Why so many guns period? Or weapons period? Investigators seized the first generation Chevy Avalanche. I cannot say the word avalanche for some reason. Just, you know, we're going to go with it. From his property in South Carolina, according to law Enforcement sources, investigators were looking into whether any victims were. Were killed at Herman's home. I mean, I think you got to keep everything on the table.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

At this point. And I think you also have to wonder, and we're going to talk about as we go, I mean, how many victims could this guy possibly have? Oh, much more at this point in the investigation. Right. They have to be thinking that, sure. How prolific of a serial killer are we dealing with here?

[Mike Gibson]

Here?

[Mike Ferguson]

Residents of Massa P. Park told CBS New York they were stunned by the arrest. Herman's next door neighbor, Atn Devilier, said, We've been here for almost 30 years, and the guy's been quiet. Never really bothers anybody.

[Mike Gibson]

It's kind of what you hear some.

[Mike Ferguson]

We hear it all the time, you know. Right. Great neighbor, this guy. He plowed my driveway of snow. He helped me bring in the groceries. Well, you know, this guy's quiet. He never bothers anybody. That's because he's plotting a murder 24 7. He doesn't have time to bother anybody else.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, you. Everybody knows somebody that's super quiet. Never really says much.

[Mike Ferguson]

Those are people you got to worry about.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which, you know, see, I am very talkative. You, on the other hand, are reserved and less verbose.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hence, there's probably something wrong with you.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, there's no doubt there's something wrong with me.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't think we're ever.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're really talking about the degree at this point.

[Mike Gibson]

Right. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Former neighbor RoseMary Kafka told NBC, you know, the regular guy who goes to work has kids in the local school and in a good neighborhood, but he's killing people on the side. And I do think that would be shocking to not. Not just family. Right. It's going to be unbelievably shocking to your wife and kids, but also neighbors. You know, you've been living next to this person for years and years and years. All of a sudden you find out that investigators think he's this very prolific serial killer.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. There's going to be some discussions.

[Mike Gibson]

Absolutely.

[Mike Ferguson]

At dinner around that. So let's talk about Rex Heuerman. He was born on September 13, 1963, and he grew up in Massapequa park in a quiet neighborhood where everyone knew everyone. It was said that he was born in the house that he was raised in.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, so long, long term. Homestead.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. Well, most people are not born in a house.

[Mike Gibson]

No, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I think you're skipping over that part. I think that's the Main part. Right.

[Mike Gibson]

His mama popped him out inside the house.

[Voicemail Caller / Other]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think is. Is what they're saying.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

After the arrest, actor Billy Baldwin tweeted. Woke up this morning to learn that the Gilgo beach serial killer suspect was. Was my high school classmate, Rex Herman.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, hey, Billy, you probably were super shocked, but.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, well, I mean, there's so many Baldwins. There's gotta be a connection somewhere. Somewhere between one of them to some serial killer. They graduated from Berner high school in 1981.

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[Mike Ferguson]

Rex's childhood friend John Parisi told 48 Hours that they met in first or second grade. Herman was bullied, and he never fought back, despite the fact that he was big enough to physically retaliate against his enemies.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he just didn't want to.

[Mike Ferguson]

Huh. Maybe he was scared. I don't know. But obviously at some point, he was 6 foot 4, and I. He must have weighed over 300 pounds.

[Mike Gibson]

He was.

[Mike Ferguson]

He was a big guy. And then as Rex got older, girls rejected him. Right. It was said that his awkward stage, which we all kind of go through one, just lasted a lot longer than other people's looks.

[Mike Gibson]

Kind of looks like he'd have an awkward stage that lasted a little longer.

[Voicemail Caller / Other]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, he had a strange look to him.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Rex's father, Theodore heuerman, died in 1975 at the age of 50. His mother, Dolores, I think even right now is in her 90s, and as far as I know, she is still alive.

[Mike Gibson]

So it sounds like maybe his mom was more of the role model for him. Not role model, but the person that took care of him and because his dad died at, you know, died pretty early.

[Mike Ferguson]

Pretty early. Yeah. I see where you're going with that. Classmates previously said Rex was bizarrely close to his controlling mother and described him as a mama's boy.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Kind of. What's the Ed Gein when his mom. Kind of controlling. And he was definitely a mama's boy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

So.

[Mike Ferguson]

So much so that he wanted to wear a suit. Yeah. Of a woman. But it was said that he'd often kind of leave hanging out with friends, saying, I have to get home to my mother. All right, so you said Ed Gein. Maybe we got a little, you know, Ed Kemper Here. I mean, obviously, Ed had his own issues with his mom, but Heuerman never spoke about his father to friends. However, he later bragged that his dad was an aerospace engineer who built satellites. He also said that his dad built cabinets and taught him how to construct furniture. In 1990, Heuerman married a woman named Elizabeth Ryan. In 1994, he purchased the house in Massapequa park from his mother for $170,000. Shortly after his first marriage failed. It was said that he kept everything exactly the same from his childhood. So you mentioned homestead, right? Long term homestead. And now you find out what it really was, long term. Because not only was he born in this house, he grew up in this house. But then as an adult, he bought the house from his mom and made it his family home. I mean, I say this is like, you know, the Bates Motel or something, but I'm getting a real strange vibe.

[Mike Gibson]

Clearly, this was where he was comfortable at and probably enjoyed having that as his main house.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's the thing. It's not weird to buy a home from your family, right? A home that you grew up in. Jim did it on the office, and him and Pam moved in.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Mike Ferguson]

But to not change it at all, to keep it the way that you were when you were a child. Yeah, that part seems very strange to me.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I find it strange, and I

[Mike Ferguson]

think other people did as well. Heuerman founded his New York city architecture firm, RH Consultants Associates, in 1994. Per the company website, his firm was located blocks from where Maureen Brainerd Barnes disappeared and the same area where several phone calls to Melissa Bartholomew's younger sister were made. Heuerman worked with major clients, including Target Footlocker, Catholic Charities, American Airlines, and New York City's Department of Environmental Protection.

[Mike Gibson]

So he was connected.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, it sounds like he was doing pretty well for himself, right? He had a. A company. He was an architect. I'm sure that huge companies like Target and American Airlines and Foot Locker love the fact that they're connected to Rex Herman in any way. According to his website's Meet the Team page, throughout the years, Rex Heuerman has provided services to other city agencies and not for profit agencies, builders, developers, and individual owners of buildings in regard to ada, NYC and New York State codes, as well as zoning, coastal consultation.

[Mike Gibson]

It sounds like the firm was successful. Busy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, I didn't understand half of that, but.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean. No, I know. I. He. That's your language. Mensa. And you are an architect slash doctor. Slash attorney, slash catch me if you can. But, I mean, I'm just a humble podcaster.

[Mike Gibson]

I worked in the architect field. I learned from, you know, Art Vandelay, so I learned a lot.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. That's why you had that license plate that said Ass man.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because you were also a practologist. But no, I mean, I think when. You know, because we do talk a lot about the victims, and you get a sense of who they. They were as a person. It's also important, though, to talk about Herman. You know, what's his background? What was it like growing up? This whole kind of mama's boy thing is a little strange. Takes it, because I. I think a lot of guys are mama's boy to. To mama's boys to a certain extent. Right. All right, you love your mama. I get that. But, you know, are you wearing her bathrobe or are you not changing the house because mama wouldn't like it? I mean, I just don't know how deep we are here.

[Mike Gibson]

There's something there.

[Mike Ferguson]

There is, and it doesn't seem right to me.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, we were talking about, you know, he went to school with one of the Baldwins, and then he started this firm. All these people, you know, as this is coming out in the news, I mean, the people he works with, people, clients. I mean, what are they thinking? Are they just shaking their heads? Are they like. Yeah, how disgust.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm assuming they're making a call real quick saying, hey, can you please get our name off your website as soon as possible to some admin somewhere? Also, though, like, 27% of all Americans probably went to school with a bald one at some point. And I'm not just even talking about the last name Baldwin. I'm talking about the Baldwin family of actors.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, well, you know, me and Stephen went to school together.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know.

[Mike Gibson]

So, you know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, there's a. There's a lot of bald ones, man.

[Mike Gibson]

There is.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we said that, you know, he had married. His marriage fell apart. Then in 1996, Herman married Asa Eller, an immigrant from Iceland. Asa had a son named Christopher Sheridan. She and Rex had one child together. They had a daughter named Victoria Herman. Asa usually took the kids to visit her family in Iceland during the summer. Police believe Heuermann killed the victims while she was away.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, that was the opportunity time for him. Right? The. When the wife is gone, the husband will play.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, you know, we talk about. And I think you asked the question, right. How do you do all this stuff when you have a Wife, children. You're leading this double life. How are you pulling it off? Well, I think this is one way, you know, if the wife and kids are gone for an entire summer, well, that's a big opportunity to go out hunting, do all this stuff with the burner phones and all of that that you probably couldn't do as easily if everybody was home.

[Mike Gibson]

Totally agree.

[Mike Ferguson]

It was said that the family lived in the rundown home. Right. That he was born in and generally kept to themselves. But Heuerman stood out to his neighbors because he was a large man who dressed very formally for work.

[Mike Gibson]

And he did, didn't he? I remember seeing some pictures of him.

[Mike Ferguson]

He's really suit and tie guy, tie,

[Mike Gibson]

but, yeah, like, looked like custom. Well, he is six' four. Probably was custom suits.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it was like Shrek wearing a suit. Yeah, I think is what they thought. He wasn't green, but, you know, he was tall. He was big. His neighbor Barry Oslander told the AP that it was strange how the house was a dump, but Herman commuted to work each day wearing a suit and tie. And it is strange. Right. You own your own architectural firm.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You're working with Target and Foot Locker and American Airlines, yet you're living in a dump.

[Mike Gibson]

You don't want to spend the money on your own home to dress it up, make it look better.

[Mike Ferguson]

It seems weird. Neighbor Gabriella Labarto also told the ap, this house sticks out like a Thor sore thumb. There was overgrown shrubs. There was always wood in front of the house. It was very creepy. I wouldn't send my child there.

[Mike Gibson]

It sounds creepy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, probably. Good thing you didn't send your child there.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Heuerman's friend David Jimenez said about his family life, per the New York Post, he ruled that house like the old 1950s style family. Traditional. Right. He was very secure, very much a man, but in a very secure, masculine way, not in an obnoxious way. He looked after his wife and kids. He would protect Asa, and he would look out for her when she was suffering from, you know, many of the physical ailments she has, especially later in life. I think he has a split personality because the only side I ever saw of him was as an assured, smart, together guy, you know, not surprised that

[Mike Gibson]

he could have that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, I'm never surprised because, again, as I've said. And you said it, too, I. I do believe. Right. These types of individuals, they allow you to see what they want you to see.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're. They're putting that forward.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They're not showing you the bad part of themselves. They don't want to show you the demon. No, they want you to think that, hey, you know, this guy's all right. He takes care of his family, and he might live in a. But, you know, he's. He's a nice guy, and he's a good neighbor. He's quiet.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, as far as you know, when I leave here, I just go home.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't assume that at all. Oh, I assume. I assume you take out your burner phone, which you're not showing us. You've got your real one here. Yeah, but you take out your burner phone, hit tender, and whatever happens after that happens.

[Mike Gibson]

Christina's.

[Mike Ferguson]

Your girlfriend's gonna love that.

[Mike Gibson]

What?

[Mike Ferguson]

That's for you.

[Mike Gibson]

He's just joking.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, I am not. Oh, I kid.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, that's funny.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think, Gibbs, the thing for me here, right, is when you. You talk about Rex Heuerman, he wasn't like some serial killers. Right. You have some who are loners.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

They don't want to draw any attention to themselves. But not this guy. This guy is more of a. You know, what you would think of maybe along the lines of a John Wayne Gacy. He's out there. I mean, he's got an architectural firm. He's successful. He had a website. His information was all over the website. He even did an interview in 2022 with Bonjour Realty, which was posted on YouTube. So he wasn't shy, or he wasn't shrinking away from any type of attention. He was interviewed by Antoine Amira, a food and beverage manager in New York who also loves real estate. He interviews people who he thinks are interesting and accomplished. Rex Herman was well known for finding loopholes to help companies and individuals get

[Mike Gibson]

building, perhaps permits, which is a, you know, a great skill to have.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, because who doesn't want that? Who doesn't need that at some point if you're a business? So this Amira guy thought Rex was pretty smart. He would later tell 48 Hours that there was nothing about Herman that made him think he was dangerous. Throughout the interview, he noticed that it was hard to get him to smile. Heuerman described himself as an architect, an architectural consultant, a troubleshooter. When a job that should have been routine suddenly becomes not routine, I get the phone call. He explained how he was born and raised on Long island and had been working in Manhattan since 1987. His niche was troubleshooting with the city's Department of Buildings. When he was asked how he got into that, he Explained that the first architect he worked for was a man named Harvey Ruthenburg. In 1987, a new law was issued regarding handicap access. He had to read the law because he was the new guy at the firm. So he reads this, and when there was an issue with the city, he was sent to work it out. He did so well with it that his boss made him work with the city for another job. And that's how he got started.

[Mike Gibson]

He became this ME Subject matter expert.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I haven't heard that term in a while, but let's go back and talk about this. This guy on YouTube. There was nothing about this man who made him, that made him think this. This guy was dangerous.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Dangerous to him, let alone a prolific serial killer. And. And that's what I think is scary about a lot of these serial killers, is that they're able to pull some of these things off. Right. Be successful, have a wife and kids, a family, and then on the side they are hunting and for. And murdering people. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I think there was this something that clicked with him when he was with his victims that turn him into this monster. But outside of that, it sounded like he was just a kind of a regular guy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, outside of that, I guess you better. Yeah. Better make that caveat. Well, or was that always there? He just didn't show it. Right. He's putting on the other part is him putting on the show.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's true.

[Mike Ferguson]

The nice guy, you know, I don't know, but, you know, you want to think of the serial killer is the guy that you would spot on the street. Right. The Henry Lee Lucas type.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Not the. Oh, who's The. The Ted Bundy type?

[Mike Gibson]

Ted Bundy. Btk.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, I thought he was kind of weird. Weird looking.

[Mike Gibson]

Don't you think he was kind of weird?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I, I think I would look at BTK and be like, I don't know about that guy.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay.

[Mike Ferguson]

But Ted Bundy was, you know, he's a pretty normal looking guy. Yeah. Obviously went to law school and all that. Now, Henry Lee Lucas.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, he.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I'd cross the street if I saw that guy 30 yards down the way. I mean, you know, he. And artists, they had like one tooth between the two of them.

[Mike Gibson]

I'd be like, kids, get in the car. We're leaving the town.

[Mike Ferguson]

Be like Chevy Chase and vacation. Roll them up.

[Mike Gibson]

You roll them up.

[Mike Ferguson]

So, all right, so he's got this kind of niche that, you know, he's good at. And he's working for this guy who was Doing a lot of work for nonprofits and human started working with building codes drawings for facilities. And he said that Herman did that. He quickly found out that the building department couldn't even understand their own codes and their own laws. So part of his job became kind of educating the system, the city, about their own codes.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

[Mike Ferguson]

It doesn't surprise me either. Then when he started his own firm, his first paying client was Robert Meyer. Heuerman recalled that he was in the Queens building department waiting in line, and Meyer was dealing with a clerk. It didn't know what he was doing. Heuerman was impatient, so he took his paperwork, explained to the clerk what he needed. Then he explained to Meyer what he needed to do next. Heuerman was asked what qualities a person in his position needs. His answer, Patience and tolerance. He said, I don't like to use the word tolerance, but sometimes you have to. And it's not just with the city, it's also with the client. Because most clients, they don't understand what I have to do, why I have to do it, and what it takes to get done. When asked what the job taught him about himself, he said it taught him how to understand people. Dealing with the technical aspects can be learned, but dealing with people is an interesting aspect of the job. So there was one last question in this interview, and it was asked of Heuerman if he was a tool or an object that would help him bring his business to greater heights, what would he be? So I think this is a strange question, but, you know. Yeah, he answered. I build furniture at home, and I still build it in the same exact workshop. I have one tool that's pretty much used in almost every job, and it's actually a cabinet maker's hammer. It's persuasive enough when I need to persuade something that's interesting. It is, yeah. And I don't know if he's talking about just making cabinets or talking about something else, but the interview actually asked not someone. You know, persuade something. Yeah, not someone. So it was just a real kind of interesting back and forth. Now, it wouldn't have been until it comes out what this guy is thought to have done. Heuerman's wife, Asa, filed for divorce in July 2023, just days after he was arrested. She was told to leave the home with only the clothes she was wearing and wasn't allowed to return. During the 12 day search, investigators seized all devices in the house, including the ones belonging to her and her adult children. Her attorney, Bob Macedonio, said she was as shocked as anyone else. She had no idea any of this was going on. Nobody wants to think that they've been living with sleeping next to a serial killer for the past 25 years.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm sure she was physically ill from all this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, does it surprise you that she files for divorce immediately, apparently, upon learning of this? Doesn't me either. Macedonio said about the family, their life going forward is always going to be the wife or the children of a suspected serial killer. Yeah, it's not, Bob. It's going to be the wife and children of a convicted serial killer. We haven't gotten to that part yet, and he didn't know it yet. Melissa Moore, the daughter of serial killer Keith Jesperson, set up a GoFundMe for ASA, which raised over $50,000. ASA was diagnosed with breast and skin cancer. Herman was the sole provider, so she lost her health insurance after he was arrested.

[Mike Gibson]

At least somebody is stepping up to help her. And you think, well, this is somebody who knows what she's going through.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And, you know, she was part of that whole Happy Face Killer. The daughter of the Happy Face Killer. Yeah. I don't know if you watched that.

[Mike Gibson]

I did. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

She was the daughter of the Happy Face.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Humans co workers Muriel Henriquez and Mary shell spoke to 48 hours after his arrest. They were in complete shock when they heard he had been charged with murder. Muriel recalled that Rex once gave her a sweater that his wife brought back from Iceland, most likely the same summer he killed Maureen brainerd Barnes in 2007.

[Mike Gibson]

This is scary, you know?

[Mike Ferguson]

The sweater or the fact that he killed someone the same summer.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. And just that relationship, you know, here's your partner or somebody you worked with.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Well, you and I have worked with a lot of people over the years.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Many people. Some we may have suspected of being serial killers.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure we did.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, but to find out that someone actually was that you had worked with for, you know, let's say, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years, that would be very shocking.

[Mike Gibson]

It would be.

[Mike Ferguson]

Even if you thought they were a little strange and possibly could be. To actually find out they were would be strange.

[Mike Gibson]

And what does this do for your living, too, right? I mean, if you're. If you have a, you know, your partner or you work at his firm.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think they were partners. I think he owned it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he owned it. They were working at his firm. So now what? Now you're out of a job, just like his Wife.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. I mean, that's horrible. She has, like, these very serious health conditions, and all of a sudden, she has no insurance.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So, Emmy, it just goes to show you, right. How many people are affected by these. The actions of these serial killers. Muriel said there was nothing that seemed frightening about Rex. A little bit of a nerd, in a way. He liked to talk about himself and what he knew. Not a narcissist, but, you know, a bit of a, you know, I know everything kind of guy. Yeah, yeah, we know people like that. She said Rex was an avid hunter, but she was surprised to learn that the Police recovered almost 300 firearms from a vault in his basement.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm still shocked about that.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, that is a huge number. Now, she did recall one strange incident that she said threw her off. She had booked a cruise to celebrate her 40th birthday. Rex asked her where she was going. She said she was going to be in the middle of the ocean and he wouldn't be able to find her. He replied, oh, yes, I can.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, okay. Creepy.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I said it as creepily as I could.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes, you did.

[Mike Ferguson]

During the second day of her cruise, a white envelope was slipped under her door with a note from Rex that said, I told you I could find you anywhere.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, gosh.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. That's either, I guess, kind of cool or it's very, very creepy.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, after everything comes out, it's definitely creepy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it would obviously be creepy after that. Mary Shell started working for racks in the summer of 2010. When she graduated art school. She spoke to former female employees who felt disrespected by Rex. For example, he would ask a woman in the office to clean toilets if he thought the cleaning staff didn't do a good job. He would also make comments if a woman gained weight.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, so one of those type of guys.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Which is kind of horrible, but especially since he was, you know, again, not the skinniest guy in the world. A woman named Nicole Brass later came Forward and told 48 Hours that she may have survived an encounter with Heuerman. She's now a hairdresser, but she used to do escort work. And one night, she was solicited by Rex Heuermann. During their date, he seemed excited to talk about the murders. She said he was very detailed, and it didn't seem like somebody who was just a True Crime fan. Yeah, he seemed like somebody who, as they talked about it, was kind of reliving it in their head. Like, he seemed excited. It piqued his interest. He sat up straighter he relaxed his body. He seemed, like, really excited to talk about it.

[Mike Gibson]

Like, can we get the check? I need to get out.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or just. Yeah, open the door, Let me out. Whatever the situation. Situation was he also talked specifically about the bodies on Gilgo Beach. She said he wanted to, like, really get into it. Like, he asked me how I thought they could get rid of the bodies without being caught in that area. And I said, like, I've never been over there. I've never even seen Go Go Beach. And his response? Well, it's really dark and desolate, of

[Mike Gibson]

course, because he knows.

[Mike Ferguson]

He does know. Nicole left the date early. She recalled, I'd never gone anywhere and, like, felt fear. My gut was telling me I needed to get away, and I never had that before.

[Mike Gibson]

Somebody was looking out for her that night.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, or she just had the right. She listened to her gut.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And. And it worked for neighbor Etienne Devilier. Have a hard time saying that. Also reported that his wife once caught Herman peeking over the fence at her while she was sunbathing.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

He complied when he was told to stop. De said that he never saw a streak of violence, though, in Rex. Again, you're not going to see the monster normally, I don't think, unless the monster wants you to see that side.

[Mike Gibson]

Just trying to, you know, the fence is probably, like, six foot. He's six.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hey, I'm not peeking over, man. I'm just. I'm just standing here.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm just here.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, it. Does that surprise you? You know, we have somebody who has sexual compulsions, maybe even a sexual addiction. Does it surprise you that he would be like, a peeping Tom sort and kind of spy on his neighbor's wife who's sunbathing?

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

Doesn't surprise me at all. The investigation eventually expanded to South Carolina and Las Vegas, where Heman owned property. Detectives looked into other cases of missing women and unsolved murders, hoping Herman's DNA would be a match. But here's the thing, right? We said he lived in a dump, his childhood home, but yet he owns property in South Carolina. Las Vegas. So it seems even more strange, you

[Mike Gibson]

know, seems like he's doing pretty good, right? He has some money, but he just didn't want to take care of his childhood house the way that most people would.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it does seem strange. In late July 2023, Suffolk County Sheriff Errol Toulon Jr. Said that more female sex workers came forward to report that they had contact with Rex Sherman. His staff was going to vet their statements and to confirm if he did have contact with them and see if that leads in new directions. And did you just yawn while I was talking? No, because I saw it out of the corner of my eye.

[Mike Gibson]

I was stretching my elbow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Everybody saw it. Dude, I am sorry to bore you.

[Mike Gibson]

Not.

[Mike Ferguson]

On July 17, 2023, Humans attorney Michael Brown issued a statement. He said there's nothing about Mr. Heuerman that would suggest that he's involved in these incidents. And while the government has decided to focus on him despite more significant and stronger leads, we're looking to forward to defending him in a court of law before a fair and impartial jury of his peers. And I don't agree with any part of that statement. I mean, I know the defense has to say that.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

But, you know, to say there's nothing that suggests that he's involved in these incidents, that's just. It's wrong.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, he might be looking forward to some of that pr. He's going to be getting.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And money. All right. He's going to be getting paid. Brown spoke exclusively with ABC in front of the courthouse the very next day. He said he first met. Met Rex at his arraignment. And his first impression was nothing struck me as unusual about him. He was articulate, he was intelligent, he was soft spoken. He also said he would have a challenging case ahead. Ahead of him because Heuerman appeared to have been convicted in the media already and the media public opinion. He expressed concerns about getting a biased jury. Again, to me, it's all, you know, defense speak. Sure, he's saying stuff to try to get out ahead of other stuff, but to say there's no evidence that he. He had to have known at that point, at least some of what was going to come. Brown said the state had circumstantial evidence against Truman, such as phone records, Internet searches, and DNA evidence. He noted that he deemed this circumstantial evidence because there were no eyewitnesses and no confessions from his client.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, but when you have DNA that is 99.9, you know, 96. Do you. Do you need an eyewitness?

[Mike Ferguson]

No. And I. But I wouldn't deem that circumstantial evidence.

[Mike Gibson]

I wouldn't either.

[Mike Ferguson]

DNA, also phone records, Internet searches, I guess you could call some of it circumstantial because it puts him there right at the same time these calls were made. There's nobody to say I saw him on that phone or, you know, so in a way, some of that could be circumstantial. I think the DNA is a little bit tougher.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because it really does kind of point to him specifically. But, you know, as we wrap this one up, the Long island serial killer has been arrested Right. By this point, but prosecutors still had a long road ahead. Ahead of them. Yeah. They had to connect human not just to these murders, but to additional murders. So in part four will cover additional charges and evidence uncovered throughout the investigation and the resolution of the Long island serial killer case.

[Mike Gibson]

But I think law enforcement has to feel pretty good where they're sitting right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, absolutely.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, if you're talking about the Gilgo 4, I think they feel pretty good. They feel very good about the three in which they have a DNA connection, and they probably feel pretty good about Maureen as well. But they're. They're gonna need more.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Than what they have so far in. In the story. But we got a voicemail. You want to check that out? All right, let's listen.

[Voicemail Caller / Other]

Hi, my name is Melissa Alexander. I'm from Woodstock, Ontario, Canada, and I recently started listening to your podcast and was wondering if you've ever done the True Crime Story. Tori Stafford. It's a girl that was kidnapped, I think, in the early 2000s. Um, it's a true story that happened in Woodstock to a little girl. I think she was only, like, 7 years old. There's been a different few podcasts that have done her story, but I kind of wanted to see what your opinion was about it and if you have done it before. But I thought it could be something that you guys could do. It looks like it was July 15, 2000 that it was, and she was kidnapped, and it goes through the whole story. But, yeah, I didn't know if you've heard about it before, but I thought maybe it's something that you guys would be interested in doing if you haven't done it. And I just wanted to say that I really enjoy your podcast. Thank you. Bye.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, thanks for the voicemail. I, I looked Gibbs. I don't think we've done it, but the name is so familiar. Maybe Morph and I did it on criminology.

[Mike Gibson]

There's a pro. Probable chance of that.

[Mike Ferguson]

A probable chance.

[Mike Gibson]

He probably did that.

[Mike Ferguson]

There's a probable chance. Oh, yeah. I, I. It's so familiar to me. But again, I. And if not, it doesn't matter. We. You and I could still do it. Absolutely. But thank you for the voicemail.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe. And keep your own time ticking.

[Mike Gibson]

Sa.