Richard Glossip

Summary

True Crime All The Time: "Richard Glossip" (Episode 427)

Podcast: True Crime All The Time
Hosts: Mike Ferguson & Mike Gibson
Date: March 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson delve into the controversial case of Richard Glossip, who has spent over 25 years on Oklahoma's death row for a murder he maintains he did not commit. The episode provides a comprehensive look at Glossip's background, the 1997 homicide of motel owner Barry Van Treese, the complicated web of testimony and evidence, the various trials and appeals, and the recent Supreme Court decision mandating a new trial due to prosecutorial misconduct. The hosts raise crucial questions about the American justice system, wrongful convictions, and the death penalty, all framed with their characteristic mix of detail, candor, and the occasional lighthearted banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Is Richard Glossip?

• Born in 1963, Glossip grew up in a chaotic environment with 15 siblings, surrounded by substance abuse but reportedly stayed out of legal trouble himself.
• Dropped out in seventh grade, worked his way up to management at Domino’s and then at a budget motel in Oklahoma City.
• Never had any legal issues prior to the events detailed in this case, except a traffic ticket.
  "Before he was charged with murder, Richard's worst offense was a traffic ticket." (08:43)

2. Background: The Best Budget Inn and the Murder of Barry Van Treese (09:06–19:21)

• Glossip managed the motel, earning $1,500/mo plus room and board—modest even for 1995.
• Motel was rundown, in a rough neighborhood, frequented by drunks and drug dealers (09:12).
• Owner Van Treese lived 90 miles away, visited periodically.
• Early morning January 7, 1997: Maintenance man Justin Sneed, age 19, with a black eye, tells Glossip, "I killed Barry Van Treese"—Glossip thought it was a joke or drunken rambling (13:23–14:24).

3. Breakdown of Events on January 7, 1997 (14:42–19:21)

• Glossip is observed running errands, buying an engagement ring, living what appears to be a normal day.
• Van Treese’s car is found near the motel; security guard Cliff Everhart becomes immediately suspicious of Glossip and initiates a search.
• Barry Van Treese's body is discovered that night in room 102, the "nicest" room usually reserved for him. The room exhibited signs of a violent struggle, blood covering walls and carpet; Sneed's fingerprints and DNA are found (18:48).

4. Initial Police Investigation and Arrests (19:21–22:35)

• Glossip gives what are described as inconsistent accounts of the last time he saw Barry.
• There was no forensic evidence tying Glossip to the murder, but his actions after the murder—selling furniture and being found with $1,700 in cash—were scrutinized. Explanations by Glossip and his girlfriend about the reason for the sales varied (20:25).
• Glossip is arrested on January 9, 1997; Sneed is arrested and confesses on January 14, admitting to the murder but insisting it was Glossip’s idea (22:35).

5. The Prosecution’s Theory and Sneed’s Testimony (25:26–35:00)

• Sneed claims Glossip orchestrated the murder for several thousand dollars and suggested the use of a baseball bat.
  • "I guess I let my pride get a little bit in the way…” – Justin Sneed (26:18)
• Under plea agreement, Sneed receives life in prison by testifying against Glossip. Glossip goes to trial for first-degree murder.
• Prosecution alleges Glossip was about to be fired for suspected embezzlement, offering a financial motive—though evidence of actual “shortages” is conflicting and later contradicted (31:19–32:39).
• Most evidence against Glossip is Sneed’s claim; there is little to no corroborating forensic or physical evidence (34:11).

6. Trials, Convictions, Appeals, and Legal Incompetence (38:11–49:27)

• In 1998, Glossip is found guilty and sentenced to death after only 75 minutes of jury deliberation (38:31).
• 2001: His conviction is overturned due to the jury having a Bible in the deliberation room and ineffective assistance of counsel (41:05–42:37).
  • "The court found that trial attorney Wayne Fornera failed to introduce Justin's videotaped confession as evidence…” (42:37)
• At the 2004 retrial, inconsistencies in Sneed’s testimony emerge, but Glossip is again found guilty and sentenced to death (49:09).
• Prosecution’s case continues to rely almost entirely on Sneed’s shifting testimonies; no new forensic evidence is introduced.

7. Mounting Doubts and New Evidence (54:54–73:09)

• Sneed’s daughter writes that her father wants to recant, believes Glossip is innocent (56:11).
• Reviews by independent parties (e.g., law firm Reed Smith) and the Oklahoma Attorney General agree the case against Glossip is deeply flawed.
• Previously undisclosed evidence emerges of Sneed's bipolar disorder diagnosis, further undermining his reliability as a key witness (68:48).
• Suppressed evidence and prosecutorial misconduct are identified, strengthening the argument that Glossip was denied a fair trial.

8. Supreme Court Intervention and Current Status (81:48–85:38)

• Multiple execution dates are set and stayed; the psychological toll on Glossip and his family, as well as the victim’s family, is discussed (64:24).
• In February 2025, the Supreme Court orders a new trial due to findings of prosecutorial misconduct.
  • "The only direct evidence of Glossip’s guilt of capital murder was provided by a witness whose statements the prosecution knew were false as he testified to them." (82:33)
• The Attorney General and new Oklahoma County DA will determine whether to reprosecute, try a lesser charge, or release Glossip outright.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sneed’s Testimony and Motive:
  "Every time that Mr. Van Treese showed up at the best Budget Inn, Richard was wanting me to kill him. Every time, every month. Hey, you gonna kill him?" – Sneed (34:19)
• On the Risk of Convicting the Innocent:
  "...there are people in prison who are innocent... it's proven that we've convicted wrongly convicted people. And I have a feeling there's a really good chance we've put a number of people to death who were not guilty, sadly." – Ferguson (05:04)
• On Prosecutorial Misconduct:
  "The prospect of executing an individual based on a conviction that the state's chief law enforcement officer believes after careful scrutiny was secured by prosecutorial misconduct in violation of due process, is all but unthinkable." – AG Drummond (75:05)
• On the Toll of Multiple Execution Dates:
  "Let's face it, there are a lot of people in prison... but the fact is, there are people in prison who are innocent." – Ferguson (05:04) "Knowing that you're going to die in 37 days... I don't know how someone processes that." – Ferguson (64:24)
• On the Difference Between Innocence and Proof:
  "There is a distinction to be made between being innocent and the state having enough to prove you're guilty." – Ferguson (84:57)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Richard Glossip’s Life and Background – 06:14–08:42
• The Night of the Murder/Basis of Charges – 13:23–19:21
• Discovery of the Body/Early Investigation – 17:51–19:21
• Justin Sneed’s Confession and Story – 25:26–34:11
• First Trial and Conviction – 38:11–38:31
• Overturned Conviction/Legal Failures – 41:05–42:37
• Sneed’s Testimony Changes at 2nd Trial – 49:09–51:39
• Independent Review and AG’s Position – 68:48–75:26
• Supreme Court Mandates New Trial – 81:48–85:38

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Tone & Style

• Ferguson and Gibson balance serious, in-depth legal analysis with accessible, sometimes irreverent commentary.
• They frequently pause to question motivations, highlight logical inconsistencies, or inject levity:
  • On the crudeness of the motel: "Sounds like a top choice to stay at..." (09:46)
  • On marriage to prisoners: "Now sometimes those people are serial killers that I don't understand at all." (67:24)
• The hosts make repeated references to how difficult it is for jurors and listeners to separate truth from fiction amid so much conflicting testimony.

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Final Thoughts & The Big Picture

The case of Richard Glossip exemplifies the complexities and dangers of the death penalty in America. With the only substantial evidence against him coming from a motivated accomplice-turned-witness with a history of mental illness and drug abuse, later compounded by law enforcement and prosecutorial misconduct, the episode resonates as a cautionary tale. The hosts’ palpable relief at the Supreme Court’s intervention highlights the stakes:
"You can't be okay with a person who is innocent, or even potentially innocent, to be sent off to be killed. You can't be okay with that." – Ferguson (78:55)

As Glossip awaits a final decision—another trial, a plea deal, or possible release—this case remains a living illustration of why judicial certainty is paramount in capital cases.

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For listeners who haven’t heard the episode, this summary provides a thorough, timestamped roadmap of the intrigue, debate, and moral complexity surrounding Richard Glossip’s decades-long fight for justice.

Transcript

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Gibson]

Hey, I'm doing good. How about you?

[Mike Ferguson]

I'm doing great.

[Mike Gibson]

It's good.

[Mike Ferguson]

And we just got done taping our weekly Patreon thing that we do. Talking about what we're watching the crazy Ohio weather.

[Mike Gibson]

It's crazy.

[Mike Ferguson]

That is swinging from 70 to like 26 in a day's time.

[Mike Gibson]

And that's probably why so many people are sick.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. Everybody's sick. My wife's sick. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Billy Hammett.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Billy?

[Mike Ferguson]

Holly Levitt.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Holly.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then just Holly, the other Holly.

[Listener/Caller]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jermaine Robertson.

[Mike Gibson]

What's going on, Jermaine?

[Mike Ferguson]

Lissy Johnson.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Lissy.

[Mike Ferguson]

Stephanie Keel.

[Mike Gibson]

Keel.

[Mike Ferguson]

Nino Reyes.

[Mike Gibson]

I like that. Nino.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's cool name, right?

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Ben Kirk.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Ben.

[Mike Ferguson]

Jamie Miller.

[Mike Gibson]

There's Jamie.

[Mike Ferguson]

Bridget Hester.

[Mike Gibson]

Ah, good old Bridget.

[Mike Ferguson]

Samantha Wamsley.

[Mike Gibson]

Wamsley. I just like that name. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And last but not least, Allison Hemlet.

[Mike Gibson]

Hey, Allison.

[Mike Ferguson]

And then if we go back into the vault this week, we selected Simon Brunt.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, I'm not gonna go down that hole.

[Mike Ferguson]

Oh, yeah. That was like a five minute conversation about famous Simons on Patreon. And some. For some reason, I thought George Michael was in Duran Duran. It was a whole mess.

[Mike Gibson]

It was a mess. And I tried to correct you.

[Mike Ferguson]

I know you got me back on the right track, but I was way off there. So, Gibbs, right now we have an episode out on True Crime all the Time Unsolved. We're where. We're talking about Joseph Smedley. And he was a 20 year old student at Indiana University who died under mysterious circumstances. His death was officially declared a suicide, but his family has questioned the ruling. And we've had some cases like this before, but sometimes they are very fascinating. They are.

[Mike Gibson]

They are. And I think we're fine that this one is as well.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right, buddy, are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

[Mike Gibson]

I am ready.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're talking about Richard Glossip. He spent years on Oklahoma's death row for a murder that he says he didn't commit. And he's come within hours of execution and even been served his last meal three different times. He's filed numerous appeals and has professed his innocence for more than 20 years.

[Mike Gibson]

I can't imagine what it would feel like to be on death row if you 100% knew you did not do it. Obviously, you would know 100 or not. Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

If you didn't do it, how that would feel. And then the fact that each time you get so close, you know, you're eating your last steak or pizza or whatever the heck it is.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Thinking, well, this is it. And then find out that, nope, it's not it. And then you go through the cycle again, and then again.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, let's face it, there are a lot of people in prison, and I'm sure there are a lot of people on. Even on death row who say, yeah, I didn't do this. Right. A lot of people will not own up to what they've done. But the fact is there are people in prison who are innocent.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, I don't know which ones they are, you know, but they're. It's proven that we've convicted wrongly convicted people. And. And I have a feeling there's a really good chance we've put a number of people to death who were not guilty, sadly.

[Mike Gibson]

I was just thinking about the trauma that this individual goes through, but also the trauma that the victim's family must go through, because they're probably thinking, finally going to have some closure on this. We're going to go down, watch this. Oh, I guess we're going to have to come back again.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. But also his family.

[Mike Gibson]

And his family as well.

[Mike Ferguson]

Right. Because they're thinking he's about ready to die, and then, no, he gets a reprieve. Richard Gloss was born on February 9, 1963. He's currently 62 years old. According to his attorney, Don Knight, Richard grew up in a chaotic household. He had 15 siblings.

[Mike Gibson]

Holy crap, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

We talk about big families, but that is a big number.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't even know how a parent remembers a kid's name at that point.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I don't know, you know, I've said it before. You and I each have two children, and, you know, providing for them is expensive. I mean, there's numbers out there. People have calculated how much it costs to have a child from birth to whatever age, whatever. It's not an inexpensive proposition.

[Mike Gibson]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

To raise a child, not at all. To raise 16 of them. First of all, I don't know how you can have enough fridge space, enough pantry space to house all the food needed to feed 16 kids.

[Mike Gibson]

I know that's a lot. I mean, I think you need like a few side by sides, a couple deep, deep freezer chests and.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, but, you know, here again, you know, are we talking about a rich family with a big mansion? No, I don't think we are. Because there was a lot in the research about how his family members struggled with drug and alcohol abuse. Growing up, Richard never got in trouble with the law. He started working after dropping out of school, and he actually became a manager at a Domino's pizza store and then later started managing motels. Knight would say at a later hearing, it may not seem like much, but for a guy with a seventh grade education, it was pretty good.

[Mike Gibson]

I would say so. Sounds like he found his way.

[Mike Ferguson]

We've talked a lot about people who have dropped out in high school, right. 10th grade, 11th grade, they didn't graduate. Maybe they went back, got their GED later. You know, dropping out in the seventh grade, that's pretty early.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, you are definitely missing out on quite a bit of just even high school education. So I think, you know, to be able to rise to the level of manager and hold down a job, it does Seem to me that even though his family was chaotic, there was drug abuse and all that, I think he was doing halfway decent, maybe compared to others in his family.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Before he was charged with murder, Richard's worst offense was a traffic ticket.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, we're all guilty there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Speak for yourself. I have never had a ticket in my life.

[Mike Gibson]

Never had a ticket?

[Mike Ferguson]

Never.

[Mike Gibson]

No speeding ticket?

[Mike Ferguson]

Never.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you are pretty smooth when they pull you over. So I'm guessing you talked yourself out of them.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. Yeah, I. I have my ways.

[Mike Gibson]

I've seen you unbutton your shirt before, and he's like, you can go ahead and move on, son.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, sometimes I use that Jedi mind trick. You don't want to give me a ticket? No, I. I just have never had a ticket. For whatever reason. In 1995, Richard was hired to manage the best budget in. In Oklahoma City, according to nonprofit news organization the Intercept. By all accounts, the motel was a dump. It was located just off the interstate on the city's west side. It hosted drunks, drunks fighting, drug dealers, and there were a lot of police drug stings.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds like a top choice to stay at.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, unfortunately, we have a few of these not far off the interstate of the city that. The big city that we live in.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, we do.

[Mike Ferguson]

There are some that you would just look at and say, no, no way. You know, no way. I am not taking my family in there. But let's face it, I don't know how many of those rooms are rented for the entire night. How many of those are rented by the hour?

[Mike Gibson]

Well, when they give an hour rate, I don't know.

[Mike Ferguson]

Owner Barry van Treese lived 90 miles away, and he owned motels in Tulsa and Weatherford. He relied on Richard to take care of daily operations, and he stopped by a couple of times a month to pay staff and check on the property. So, you know, he owns this hotel. Motel. Right. But he's not going to live there. This is not a great area. He's going to live 90 miles away from there. And, yeah, I'll stop in a couple of times, but, hey, I'm not staying long. Here's your check, and I'm getting the heck out of here.

[Mike Gibson]

I'm not even going to meet you there. Come on down here. That's what I'd say.

[Mike Ferguson]

Richard was paid fifteen hundred dollars a month plus room and board. He and his girlfriend, Deanna Wood, lived in the apartment adjacent to the motel office. So, all right, $1,500 a month, you know, is not a lot of Money, even in 1995, that's not a ton of money. It's not. But you're getting free room and board, which does go a long way on slow nights. Richard locked the front door at 2am Guests who wanted to check in after that had to ring a buzzer. It wasn't unusual for Richard and Deanna to hear noises outside in the early morning hours. And again, I think that would be kind of tough. It's almost like you're on call 24 7.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't think I'd like that.

[Mike Ferguson]

What, you wouldn't like living in a dumpy motel?

[Mike Gibson]

Not only a dumpy, just a. But I just wouldn't like to, you know, knowing that you're basically on 24 7. If you have to be, have a little separation from work and in life.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, you're on 24 7, but for different reasons.

[Mike Gibson]

Different reasons. Yeah. Now, growing up, I had a buddy that him, his dad, mom and sister all lived at the hotel. They managed two big hotel chains and they actually had it's like three hotel rooms where the walls were open and they lived in there.

[Mike Ferguson]

So a little Schitt's Creek type action. Yeah, but nicer.

[Mike Gibson]

It was pretty cool. I mean, we could go down to the kitchen, get some to eat. Yeah, Anytime you want it, you know, so.

[Mike Ferguson]

So maybe a little different than what, you know, Richard was dealing with here because you think about kind of a rundown hotel and I said it right, there's a lot of drunks, there were drug dealers. I'm sure there was some prostitution going on as well. You're going to have a lot of loud, raucous people. It might be hard to sleep. You're going to hear a lot of noises. There's going to be a lot going on. Richard closed up in the early morning hours of January 7, 1997. Around 4:00am he was woken up by pounding on the wall outside his apartment. Deanna described it as scraping on the wall. Okay. Sounds like something you might see in a horror movie.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

When Richard opened up the door, he saw the maintenance man, 19 year old Justin Sneet, who had a black eye. According to Richard, Justin said some drunk gas broke a window. Richard told Justin to fix it. Justin denied that the drunk gas caused his black eye protect, but he did say he ran them all. As Justin walked away, Richard asked, come on Justin, really, what happened to your eye? According to Richard, Justin looked at him and said, he killed Barry Van Treese. Richard turned to look at the spot by the front office where Barry always Parked his car. It wasn't there. So he assumed Barry had not returned from Tulsa. He'd gone there the night before to pay employees at the other motel. Richard thought Justin was messing with him and went back to bed. And we talked about this before, right? Somebody says something to you and you're like, oh, yeah, this person's just messing around. Now, this is a very serious thing.

[Mike Gibson]

It is.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, I just killed the owner, right? The guy that, that you work for. The guy that pays our bills.

[Mike Gibson]

It's also four o'clock in the morning. You're half asleep. You're going to. Man, I just want to go back to bed. Why are you messing with me right now? We'll talk about this tomorrow.

[Mike Ferguson]

Authorities know that at 8:30am Richard and Justin went outside to cover the broken window in room 102 with plexiglass. Richard then went to his room to take a nap. In the afternoon, he woke up to run errands. He went to the optician to get glasses. And he spent $100 on an engagement ring for his girlfriend, Deanna. Afterwards, he and Deanna went to Walmart together. Now it's 1997. $100, even then is not a lot to spend on an engagement ring.

[Listener/Caller]

No.

[Mike Ferguson]

What did they say, three months salary, Something like that? Obviously, we know he makes more than $300 a month, but he wasn't a guy making a lot of money, let's face it.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe it was just a down payment he put on it, made payments after that.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could have been, yeah. But it did say he spent a hundred dollars on an engagement ring. That's all it said.

[Mike Gibson]

It's not how much it costs, it's the. It's the thought, really?

[Mike Ferguson]

Because my wife has never subscribed to that theory. No, I can tell you that right now. By then, Barry's car had been found in a parking lot near the motel. The motel desk clerk called Walmart and asked the store to page Richard, so they paged him. He returned to the motel. Former security guard Cliff Everheart was the first to point the finger at Richard. Everhart also claimed he owned a 1% interest in the hotel. However, Barry Van Treese's widow later testified she had no knowledge of his alleged ownership stake. After Barry's car was found, but before anyone knew where he was, Everhardt drove around with Richard, Indiana, to search dumpsters. Everhart has since died, but he testified that it was his idea to check dumpsters and surrounding areas for signs of Barry to see if he had wandered off and passed out somewhere. Okay, I get it. Something doesn't seem right. But I don't know if my first inclination is, is to start searching dumpsters.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't either. I mean, unless this guy had a past of sleeping in dumpsters. Well, Barry tied one on. He might be in that dumpster down there. Like, you know, he likes to get in those dumpsters every now and then.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know, those dumpsters are very gross and nasty.

[Mike Gibson]

They are.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know how many people are just going to decide, yeah, I'm just going to lay in here.

[Mike Gibson]

I would pass on that. I mean, I don't know if you ever dumpster dive before. I've dumpster dive before because something fell in there that I needed and I got in there and I'm like, this is disgusting. But I found what I needed.

[Mike Ferguson]

It must have been very important because there's not many things that would cause me to go into one of those nasty dumpsters. Oklahoma Police Sergeant Timothy Brown became involved when he saw the group checking a dumpster by a McDonald's. Everheart then ordered the motel staff to search the rooms. Justin later said he pretended to search.

[Mike Gibson]

Why would you pretend to search? Too lazy to search or because you know the search isn't going to find.

[Mike Ferguson]

Anything or just lazy and I really don't know. Around 10pm on January 7, Sergeant Brown and Cliff Everheart found Barry's body under a pile of bedding in room 102. This was the nicest room in the motel and Barry usually stayed here when he came to the best Budget Inn. Okay, seems like maybe that would be the first place you'd check instead of all the dumpsters. All the dumpsters. It was said that the walls and carpet were covered in blood. Justin's fingerprints were found all over the room. Justin's DNA was, was also found on a hundred dollar bill that was stolen from several thousand dollars of motel cash receipts stored under the seat of Barry's vehicle. Well, that doesn't look good for Justin.

[Mike Gibson]

It doesn't.

[Mike Ferguson]

But if he's a handyman there, could it be pretty easily explained why his fingerprints were found around the room?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, you'd almost expect him to be there.

[Mike Ferguson]

In the aftermath of finding the body, Cliff Everheart told the police that Richard gave inconsistent stories about the last time he saw Barry. Sergeant Timothy Brown said that Richard claimed he last saw Barry in the motel parking lot on the morning of January 7th when authorities knew he was already dead by then.

[Mike Gibson]

Going to raise a few eyebrows?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I mean, anytime that the police believe you're saying something that can't possibly be true. It's going to bump you up on the list. Now, no one had ever heard Richard or Justin talk about wanting to kill Barry. None of Barry's belongings were found in Richard's possession. There was no forensic evidence linking Richard to the crime. However, the police scrutinized what he did. After the murder. Richard sold multiple furniture items, suggesting that he was planning to leave town. Deanna Wood later testified at a preliminary hearing that her birthday was in May, and she wanted breast implants, which is why Richard sold their furniture. However, Richard said he did it to pay for an attorney because a friend warned him not to talk to the police without a lawyer. So we've got some conflicting statements here. I get it. She wants breast implants. She'll sell your furniture, which are, from my understanding, quite expensive.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So why have a couch and a place to sit, or even a bed to sleep on? I mean, get those implants. Because that's what she wants to go.

[Mike Ferguson]

With her hundred dollar ring.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. Sometimes you just have to prioritize. Sometimes you just have to prior to.

[Mike Ferguson]

And sometimes you have to figure out how to say the word yes. Prioritize that. We got it. We understood what y', all what you meant, but, you know, I was kind of thinking 1997 to today, you know, $100. What would that be in today's value? People, people, people, people.

[Mike Gibson]

You know, $800.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. I think that might be even high, but I. I don't know. I don't think it would be a lot for an engagement ring today. No, I really don't. Richard was first questioned by the police on January 8, 1997, and he didn't mention Justin's statement that he killed Barry. He later testified that he wanted to say something, but Deanna told me not to tell anybody until they knew for sure Barry was dead. Deanna later confirmed this in her testimony. And it's such a big thing. Yes. I mean, you have a man who turns up dead, who you say another guy, Justin, confessed to his murder, but you don't tell that to the police.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a problem. It's a problem because it doesn't carry the weight later on. Later on? Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Richard was arrested on January 9, leaving a lawyer's office. He had $1,700 on him, which he said came from his recent paycheck, his savings and selling his furniture. The state later claimed that this was half the amount Justin admitted to stealing from Barry's car. It was during his questioning on January 9, when Richard told the police about Justin's confession. So Justin was arrested on January 14 and he confessed to the murder. But he claimed it was all Richard's idea.

[Mike Gibson]

He said, hey, you're gonna turn me in, I'm gonna bring you in with me. Or maybe it was Richard's ideal.

[Mike Ferguson]

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[Mike Ferguson]

Justin told the police that around 3:30am on January 7, Richard called him in his motel room and said it was time because Barry had just returned from Tulsa and was in room 102. Richard offered him several thousand dollars and suggested a baseball bat as a weapon. He told Justin that if he didn't do it now, they would both be kicked out of the motel. Justin thought it over while he went to a nearby gas station to buy a Coke. He later said, I guess I let my pride get a little bit in the way. And I'm always amazed by some of these statements that people make. Yeah, when they're talking about killing someone, taking someone's life to say, I guess I let my pride get a little bit in the way A little.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, try a lot. But hey, at least you thought it over while you drank a Coke.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, get a Coke before you do the deed. Justin admitted that he entered room 102 with his master keys and attacked Barry with the bat. Barry fought back and knocked him backwards, which broke the window. Justin overpowered and beat him to death. The medical examiner determined Barry suffered nine blows to the head. So, you know, this does a couple of things right? It explains the broken window. First of all, it probably also explains maybe Justin's black eye.

[Mike Gibson]

It does.

[Mike Ferguson]

That most likely occurred during the struggle. Justin acknowledged going to Richard's apartment and confessing to the murder, but he insisted that Richard was expecting him. He claimed Richard had been pressuring him for months to kill Barry. Justin later agreed to plead guilty to first degree murder. He was spared the death penalty in exchange for his testimony against Richard. Richard was charged with first degree murder and the prosecution sought the death penalty. I mean, let's just stop and think about this for a minute. Now, I'm not saying that Richard is innocent, but as we said right up front, Richard has maintained his innocence.

[Listener/Caller]

Right?

[Mike Ferguson]

Let's say that it did kind of go down the way that Richard has said in that Justin committed the murder and kind of brought him in to it after the fact. It wouldn't be that hard to do really, if you think about it. No, it wouldn't be because Justin knew that Richard was there on site.

[Mike Gibson]

But he must really have a dislike for Richard to pull him into this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or did he know that he was going down? And as you've often said, the first one to make a deal reaps the benefits.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, for sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

So he's going to get life, but he's not going to get the death penalty. Why is that? Because he made a deal agreeing to testify against Richard at trial.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. So saved his own skin.

[Mike Ferguson]

You could make an argument that he really benefited from bringing Richard into the plot to kill Barry.

[Mike Gibson]

Where he gets to live.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Where Richard presumably is, if convicted, going to die.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Richard's trial began on June 3, 1998. The defense argued Richard was a victim of a conspiracy to make him a scapegoat in the murder, while the prosecution painted Richard as the mastermind. Shocking that the prosecution and defense have differing ideas of what happened.

[Mike Gibson]

Think that happens often?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think it's every trial. As a motel manager, Richard knew Barry picked up large amounts of cash to deposit with. He came to check on the property. Richard promised Justin that Barry would have up to $37,000 on him. However, when Justin killed Barry, he found just $3,600 which he and Richard split. The prosecution described Justin as a desperate sort of a 19 year old young man. He depended on Richard for everything, including meals. Justin was not paid for his work at the motel, but he did get room and board.

[Mike Gibson]

Okay, wow. Working for free. Sorta.

[Mike Ferguson]

Sorta.

[Mike Gibson]

You get a bed and a place.

[Mike Ferguson]

To shower and apparently some meals and.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, depending on whatever they had in the fridge that day.

[Mike Ferguson]

He came to Oklahoma from Texas with a crew of roofers. Justin testified that he had enough money from that job to sustain his use of marijuana and meth. He also worked side gigs to support himself and did not entirely rely on Richard. So he has a little bit in common with you. You also work a number of side gigs.

[Mike Gibson]

I do.

[Mike Ferguson]

To help support yourself. As far as I know, you're not big on the marijuana and meth.

[Mike Gibson]

Do not do meth.

[Mike Ferguson]

Okay. But the side gigs for sure.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, you have. Things are important.

[Mike Ferguson]

You have a number of side hustles. The prosecution argued that Richard was going to be fired because of financial shortages at the motel and alleged he embezzled money to avoid being fired and to secure a managerial position at the Tulsa Motel. Richard planned to kill Barry and convince his widow to let him run the business. And I get it. Right. This is what the prosecution is, is putting forth is a motive for the murder. We have seen people make the decision to kill for, you know, just all kinds of different reasons.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, for dollars.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. This does not seem to be, you know, one of those really big windfalls. Right. He's not getting a million dollars. He is going to, what, keep his managerial job where he makes $1,500 a month? I don't know. People have killed for less, so you can't completely dismiss it. Accounting records showed a $6,100 shortage at the Oklahoma City Motel at the end of 1996. More detailed records requested by the defense were destroyed in a flood. However, Richard received a bonus 11 out of 12 months in 1996 as a reward for bringing in business above the income baseline set by Barry.

[Mike Gibson]

That says something. Right? He was hustling, getting more income in that Barry wanted.

[Mike Ferguson]

And no other employees or long term guests were aware that Barry was unhappy with Richard's performance. So if all that is true, then, you know, does that motive make even less sense because he's not worried about losing his job?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, if he's performing and Barry's happy with the amount of money he's bringing in, why would you want to get rid of that individual?

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. This is the guy giving you the bonuses.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

However, Barry's brother, Ken Van Treese, testified that Richard was about to be fired. According to the Daily Oklahomans 1998 trial coverage. Despite Justin's confession, Richard's defense attorney, Wayne Fornerat, proposed alternative suspects without any evidence. Twice during trial, he told the judge it would be in Richard's best interest to take a blind plea.

[Mike Gibson]

That sounds like a really bad idea.

[Mike Ferguson]

Also sounds like a bad idea.

[Mike Gibson]

That too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Again, is this an attorney who is seeing that this case is not going well, or is he just giving really bad advice to his client? Richard took the stand and denied any involvement in the murder. Justin was the prosecution star witness. Their case was primarily based on his testimony. And I think those are very tough cases where you have so very little evidence and you're relying on the testimony of one person. And in this case, that one person happens to be the person who actually committed the murder. That's a tough one.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. You would think you would want something more solid if you're going to convict somebody to death.

[Mike Ferguson]

Justin told the court every time that Mr. Van Treese showed up at the best Budget Inn. Richard was wanting me to kill him. Every time, every month. Hey, you gonna kill him?

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Hey, you're gonna kill him this time.

[Mike Gibson]

Today's the day.

[Mike Ferguson]

He gave different explanations for why Richard wanted Barry dead. He said Richard was trying to tell me that with Mr. Van Treese out of the way, he might be able to con the wife of the deceased into letting him run both of the motels. He also said that Richard offered to let him manage one of the motels. So, kind of an incentive, right, to get this done?

[Mike Gibson]

You do this, I'll oversee both hotels. But you'll run this one, buddy. You'll be in charge. You'll be the man.

[Mike Ferguson]

According to Justin, Richard was worried that Barry, who showed up on January 6 with plans to examine all 52 rooms for repairs and renovations, would find out he wasn't doing a good job maintaining the property and would fire it.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, if you're not doing your job, you would be fired, right?

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, yeah, but doesn't it also contradict the fact that nobody seemed to think that, you know, Barry had a problem with Richard? 11 out of the previous 12 months, he'd actually gotten a bonus. Daytime desk clerk Billy Hooper, who has since died, testified that after she came into work on the morning of January 7, Richard told her that Barry left an hour earlier, most likely to get breakfast or materials for renovating the rooms. Richard told her Barry stayed in room 108 the night before, and he rented room 102 out to some drunk guests who broke the window. She thought this was strange because 102 was the nicest room, and Barry was a teetotaler and didn't like people who drank at all.

[Mike Gibson]

So it is strange. Why tell her that you rented the room to some drunks instead of that, Barry rented the room out to some drunks?

[Mike Ferguson]

If what Billy Hooper said was true, that does not make Richard look good. You know, with 102 being the nicest, why wouldn't Barry just stay there and rent room 108 out to these drunks? You know, if that's what he wanted to do? Is it because he had to try to craft an explanation for this broken window? Well, maybe Richard also told her to leave room 102 off the housekeeping list because he and Justin were going to take care of the window. Now, Richard denied saying any of this to Billy Hooper. And Justin testified that he was the one who told the housekeeper to ignore room 102. So there's a There's conflict all over the place when it comes to who said what, what was said. Richard said he and Billy had a decent relationship until she got injured on the job and, and was unable to work for a while. During that time, he ran the motel alone. Barry told him he was going to put Billy back on the payroll even though she wasn't back at work, and he scoffed when she returned. Their relationship was not the same. So I think you're kind of getting the idea that maybe she was upset with Richard, wanted to get back at him. At least that's maybe what Richard is putting out.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds like it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Richard has also denied telling anyone he saw Barry on the morning of January 7th. He testified that people misinterpreted his statement that he saw Barry around 7:00pm on January 6th, not 7:00am on January 7th.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's a difference.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a big difference. Right. It's essentially 12 hour difference. On June 10, 1998, Richard Glossop was found guilty of first degree murder. The following day, the jury voted for the death penalty after just 75 minutes of deliberation.

[Mike Gibson]

Pretty quick.

[Mike Ferguson]

That seems very quick, especially for, you know, voting to put someone to death.

[Mike Gibson]

Sounds like they were pretty convinced.

[Mike Ferguson]

And based on a lot of the statements, and I think on some of the testimony, it did make Richard look guilty. The question is, were all of these people telling the truth? Because we've said it before, right. The jury can only go by the evidence that is presented in court. If you have a couple of people who are lying and the jury is relying on those statements as being truthful, well, you can convict someone that is not guilty, who didn't commit the offense. We're not saying that's what happened, but that's how it could happen. ADA Fern Smith said, per the Daily Oklahoman, Glossip was more culpable than Sneed because he was the mastermind. But for Glossip, Sneed would not have done what he did. And you actually do see that in many cases, right? You have the person who carries out the murder. Maybe they're the shooter, the stabber, the strangler, whatever the means of murder are. But then you have the person who actually set them in motion.

[Mike Gibson]

The mastermind.

[Mike Ferguson]

The mastermind. And a lot of times those people are held at the very least to the same standard and oftentimes to a higher, more severe standard.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, it's because the murder most likely would have never happened.

[Mike Ferguson]

And that's what, you know, the prosecution is saying in this one. On July 17, 2001, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals made a unanimous decision to vacate Richard's conviction in Descends. The court ordered a new trial, agreeing with the findings of a judge who reviewed the case. At the court's request, the court ruled that there was credible evidence to show at least one Bible was brought into the jury room and may have well been referred to in and during jury deliberations. Okay, I think that is a first for me. I mean, I've heard of a number of reasons for someone getting a new trial.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't think I've ever heard of it being because someone brought a Bible into the jury room during deliberations.

[Mike Gibson]

I have never heard it either. Interesting, though.

[Mike Ferguson]

As reported by the Daily Oklahoman, the court said it was not deciding the case by concluding that using the Bible constituted an improper influence on the deliberations. However, we are compelled to caution trial court to remind jurors they are to utilize only the jury instructions and consider only the evidence presented at trial in arriving at their determinations of guilt and sentence.

[Mike Gibson]

And now go off what the Bible says? I guess.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think that's what they're saying. The court also found that no forensic evidence linked Richard to the crime and the evidence presented to support Justin Sneed's testimony was, quote, extremely weak. However, the court did not need to make a finding on the evidence because trial counsel's conduct was so ineffective that we have no confidence that a reliable adversarial proceeding took place.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow, that is saying a lot.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, they are basically coming out and saying his counsel was dog shit, essentially. And that's on top of someone bringing the Bible into the jury deliberations. The court found that trial attorney Wayne Fornera failed to introduce Justin's videotaped confession as evidence and failed to use the tape to cross examine Justin and one of his interrogators.

[Mike Gibson]

It's like Law 101.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of, you know, one of the biggest things in these types of trials where you have a videotaped confession. Well, what's on there? What did Justin say and what did he say? Maybe that wasn't captured by the camera. That's often what you see in some of these older trials. You find out that, yeah, they had 45 minutes worth of videotape confession, but they had 11 hours worth of interrogation before they turned the tape on. Well, what happened during that exactly? You know, folks, everyone in my family, and I'm including myself here, has a bad habit of signing up for things subscriptions with the intent to cancel at some point. We just never do. So we end up with a lot of subscriptions that we're not using and that adds up to a lot of dollars. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. And who doesn't need that? Their dashboard lays out your total financial picture, including bill due dates and paydays in a way that's very easy to digest. You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your past spending. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over 880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. And I've been using Rocket Money for years now. I know it has saved me a bundle of money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com TCAttoday that's RocketMoney.com Tcatt RocketMoney.com Tcat you know healthy doesn't have to be Perfect Thrive Market makes it easy with small swaps, trusted ingredients and personalized shopping that fits your lifestyle. It really is the easiest way to make better choices without feeling overwhelmed. All delivered straight to your door. Instead of the struggle of trying to figure out what foods fit your health goals, Thrive Market does the hard work for you. You can easily shop over 90 diet and lifestyle filters to find exactly what fits without second guessing whether you're into high protein meals, low sugar treats, GLP1 friendly options, or gluten free staples. Thrive Market ensures the food you eat has the highest quality and is free of over 600 sketchy ingredients, so every choice is vetted by experts. My wife and I love the Smash Food Superfood Raspberry Fruit Spread. We've ditched all jellies and jams for this. It's amazing and so much better for you. Join Thrive Market with our link thrivemarket.com tcat for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift as reported by the Intercept. During the interrogation, Detective Bob Bemo told Justin that before he decided whether or not to waive his rights, I want you to hear some of the things that we've got to say to you. Justin was read his rights and then BMO said, we know this involves more than just you, okay? Justin said he didn't know what to say about what happened to Barry Bmo replied, everybody is saying you're the one that did this, and you did it by yourself. And I don't believe that, you know, Rich is under arrest. Well, Justin wasn't aware of this. BMO replied, so he's the one. He's putting it on you. The worst. BMO said that if Justin didn't want to talk about anyone else's involvement, he would book him for murder, and you would be facing this thing on your own. And I don't think it's just you. And that's when Justin confessed and then blamed Richard.

[Mike Gibson]

So kind of a strange sequence.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is. But, you know, here again, this is what you see in many of these interrogations. Right. The police often lie. And they can lie. You know, higher courts have ruled that.

[Mike Gibson]

They can, if it helps them, eventually get a conviction.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here's the thing, Gibbs. If you're the defense attorney, if you're the Matlock, right, wouldn't you want to put that interrogator BMO on the stand and just pepper him with questions?

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, all day long.

[Mike Ferguson]

And you want to kind of expose the tactics used to the jury? And I think what the court was saying is that, you know, Richard's counsel was ineffective because they didn't do any of that.

[Mike Gibson]

No. And they should have.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, if Justin had come in right from the beginning and said, hey, yeah, I did it. Richard and I were both involved. He was the mastermind. But that's not the way it happened.

[Mike Gibson]

It was like he was led.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. He only implicated Richard after he was kind of led down that path by BMO is the way it seemed. Richard declined a plea deal offer before his 2004 retrial. During the trial, Barry's brother Kenneth Van Treese, testified that the motel account shortages were insignificant and wouldn't have worried Barry because the Oklahoma City Motel was profitable. So again, to me, that goes back to. All right, were there shortages? You can have shortages in any type of business, especially a cash based business. People make mistakes, they give the wrong change back, whatever. But he's saying they were insignificant. It was making money. Which kind of goes back to why Richard was getting all these bonuses month after month.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, he was sitting and going above his target.

[Mike Ferguson]

Much of the evidence presented by the prosecution was the same, although there were some discrepancies in Justin Sneed's testimony. And you would think that would be a bad thing, right? Why would there be discrepancies? Did it not happen the way you said it happened the first time?

[Mike Gibson]

What happens when you lie On June.

[Mike Ferguson]

1St, 2004, Richard Glossop was convicted of first degree murder for the second time, and the jury once again voted for the death penalty. Richard's lawyers failed to introduce Justin Sneed's interrogation video at the 2004 trial.

[Mike Gibson]

How's that happen?

[Mike Ferguson]

I don't know. However, in subsequent appeals, the court found that the decision was part of a valid defense strategy. So they're basically saying, hey, obviously they knew that the court had previously ruled his prior counsel ineffective because of this reason, but part of their strategy became not to introduce it for whatever reason.

[Mike Gibson]

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, me neither. But there are times when a defense attorney makes a calculated decision. They don't want to introduce something because then that opens up something else that could be damaging. Right. To their client. I don't know what that would be. But we talk about Justin's kind of inconsistencies. His stories changed between 1997, 1998 and 2004. During the first trial, Justin said Richard offered him $7,000 to kill Barry. But the money under Barry's car seat was only $4,000. And he and Richard split it. At the 2004 trial, he testified that Richard offered him up to $10,000. Every time he spoke to Richard about killing Barry, the amount increased.

[Mike Gibson]

That's a pretty sizable difference.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, and it's also a lot of money compared to, I think, where, you know, Richard was in his life. And we talked about his $1,500 a month salary. Right. He bought a hundred dollar engagement ring. This was not a guy who had a ton of money. I don't think now, someone could make the argument that, as Justin said, Richard knew there might be a bunch of cash inside the hotel room, and that's where he was going to get the money to pay Justin. In 1997, Justin said that Richard instructed him to cover up the broken window with plexiglass. However, at both trials, he added that Richard told them to get trash bags, a hacksaw, and acid.

[Mike Gibson]

So now Justin's bringing in the fact that they need to get a hacksaw, some trash bags, some acid to dispose of the body.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. What else could you assume that that would be used for? At the retrial, Justin testified that when Richard went to room 102 with him to make sure Barry was dead, Richard opened Barry's wallet, pulled out a hundred dollar bill, and put it in his pocket. But no forensic evidence supported this claim. And to me, Gibbs, this is a big part of this case. There really was no forensic Evidence tying Richard to the crime. Now, if you're the mastermind, does that mean you're likely to leave forensic evidence? Maybe not, because you just put it into motion. You weren't actually at the scene.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, well, that makes sense.

[Mike Ferguson]

In 1997, Justin claimed he'd only met Barry a couple of times. In 2004, he recounted an incident where he went to the boiler room to fix a TV with Richard and Barry. While Barry was crouched down with his back to them, Richard asked him repeatedly to do it. Right now, why don't I just take that little hammer and knock him over the head with it? He said Richard told him to kill Barry five or six times, But Barry became paranoid and left the room. Well, you know, I don't know if Barry's in within earshot. It sounds like he would have been. Yeah, I think that would make you paranoid. Do it now. Do it now.

[Mike Gibson]

I think I'm done here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Also, at the retrial, Justin testified that he had no idea Richard was arrested when he made his 1997 confession. However, the interrogation transcript proves this is a lie, because the detective told him Richard was arrested.

[Mike Gibson]

So he's not a truthful person.

[Mike Ferguson]

No. I think what all of this really highlights are the inconsistencies in Justin's statements between the different trials over the years. Richard had acknowledged that he shouldn't have ignored Justin's statement about killing Barry. He regrets not telling the police the first time he was questioned. He maintains he was not involved in the murder. And any way, Richard told the intercept about an incident with Justin that he didn't mention during his 1998 testimony. He said when Barry came to Oklahoma City a month before he was murdered, Barry told Richard he woke up one morning to find Justin standing in his room just staring at him. Justin left quickly. Richard suggested firing Justin, but Barry waved it off. And to me, Gibbs, these cases are so tough because, you know, what you have are people saying all of these things. But a lot of the times, the person who could back it up is the victim. Obviously, in this case, that's true. And in some of them, there's just no way to corroborate that what the person says is true. So I think if you're a juror, you're just weighing all this stuff. You're trying to figure out which statements are true, which statements are not true.

[Mike Gibson]

And that can be tough.

[Mike Ferguson]

It can be very tough. Richard also said there was no reason for him to kill Barry, because if he was after money, he could have just stolen from him. He regularly stored large amounts of cash for weeks before Barry came to collect it. He could have taken the money and fled if he wanted to.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, that kind of makes sense. But if you were skimming off the top this whole time and just giving Barry what Barry thought was a decent amount. But it wasn't everything. And maybe Barry found out that it should be more. That could have been a reason.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could have been. But even as Barry's own brother said, the shortages were insignificant.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

And Barry didn't have a problem. In October 2014, Justin Sneed's daughter, Orion Justine Sneed, wrote a letter to the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board stating that she strongly believes Richard is innocent. She wrote, for a couple of years now, my father has been talking to me about recanting his original testimony. I feel his conscience is getting to him. The letter never got to the board because it arrived too late for Richard's attorneys to submit it. And I think that's huge.

[Mike Gibson]

I think so, too.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, this is not someone in Richard's family. This is Justin's daughter basically saying, my dad didn't tell the truth, and he's admitted it to me. Therefore, I know Richard is not guilty.

[Mike Gibson]

Which you would think would at least demand a review.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Or consideration by the parole board, something. Richard was the lead plaintiff in Glossop vs Gross, which challenged Oklahoma's lethal injection protocol. On June 29, 2015, the US Supreme Court upheld the use of lethal injection in Oklahoma, ruling that executions carried out with the three drug protocol did not violate the eighth amendment. It was a five to four majority decision. In September 2015, Richard's defense team presented evidence that Justin Sneed was addicted to meth at the time of the murder and habitually broke into vehicles in the motel parking lot during his employment. But you know, one reason why someone might kill to get their hands on a bunch of money? Drugs. Drugs. They're addicted to drugs. The defense interviewed Richard Allen Barrett, one of Justin's former drug dealers, who also said he sold meth with Richard's brother, Bobby Glossett, in 1995 and 1996. In September 1996, Barrett began meeting with Bobby in Room 102 at the best Budget Inn, where Barry was murdered. During this time, Barrett met Justin. Barrett said that each time he came to the motel, Justin was purchasing and using drugs.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, there's no doubt we know Justin was using.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. The question is, did he make the decision to kill Barry solely on his own, without any influence from Richard, or were they in it together? That's really the question?

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

This guy, Richard Allen Barrett, said that Richard Glossip would originally would occasionally come to room 102 to see his brother. He mostly came to tell the men to be quiet. Bobby Glossop was not kind to Richard and frequently told him to stay out of his business.

[Mike Gibson]

It's like a kind of a jerk.

[Mike Ferguson]

And it also maybe points to the. The fact that Richard wasn't involved in all of this stuff. Maybe his brother didn't want him to be. The defense team also had a report from Richard Leo, an expert on false confessions. Leo's report stated that police interrogators fed Justin the theory that Richard was the mastermind of the murder and put pressure on him to implicate Richard. These tactics increase the risk of false confession.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, we kind of went over what the police interrogator, what the police interrogator said.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. And you see it time and time again, right? When something is proven to be a false confession, you know, what were the tactics used to elicit the confession? You know, I think I mentioned to you on Patreon, Gibbs, that I went back and I watched the Paradise Lost series. I forgot how good that was. But, you know, when you, you talk about Miss Kelly kind of giving his statement to police, that's saying he was involved, but also implicating the other two boys. And then you have people on there kind of breaking down how the interrogators got him to do that. You know, first he said it was like in the morning. And then they said, well, what time did you get there that night?

[Listener/Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

You know what I'm saying? At first he said he got there at 9, and then I think he said maybe noon. And then later on they had him saying it was like 7 o' clock at night because they just, they knew what he was saying couldn't be correct. So they had to get him to a point that could be plausible, that.

[Mike Gibson]

It fit the puzzle.

[Mike Ferguson]

That year, the police also released a 1999 report showing that a box of evidence was marked for destruction. The report was never given to the attorneys who represented Richard in his second trial or his appeals. Okay, what was in this box of evidence?

[Mike Gibson]

I'm sure the defense wished they had it.

[Mike Ferguson]

Richard's execution was set for September 16, 2015. But hours before the execution, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals granted a two week reprieve to review Richard's claims of new innocence, including another inmate's claim that he overheard Justin Sneed admit to framing Richard.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's interesting. Now we know because it's another inmate saying it. You can't take it. Full, full face value.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I mean, I do think by and large, inmates come forward because they're looking for something, and oftentimes they're willing to say just about anything. You know, if they think they can get a reduced sentence, if they think they can get a pack of ramen or, you know, back in the day, a carton of smokes or. Yeah, strawberry milkshake. Okay, they put it on anybody. But by and large, I think for the most part, inmates are hoping to get time shaved off their sins. I mean, if you were in prison, Gibbs, what would you not do to get a shorter sentence, to get out of prison earlier?

[Mike Gibson]

You almost do about anything.

[Mike Ferguson]

I think a lot of people would. On September 22, 2015, the defense filed papers referring to a July 1997 psychiatric evaluation of Justin Sneed, where he said he understood he was charged with murder in connection with a burglary and made no reference to Richard's involvement. On September 23, the defense filed papers asserting that two witnesses were being intimidated. One witness claimed Justin laughed about lying in court, and another said that based on his conversations with Justin, he acted alone. The attorney general's office responded on the 24th, arguing the new witnesses were inherently suspect. And again, I mean, you can't be hypocritical and say that some of Justin's testimony, which was not able to be corroborated, is true or false and not saying the same thing about, you know, these witnesses coming forward now.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Who knows who's telling the truth? But I think what it does do is, is kind of make you wonder, was there more to this than how it played out at trial?

[Mike Gibson]

Seems like there was.

[Mike Ferguson]

On September 28, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals voted to proceed with execution. On September 30, 2015, the Supreme Court refused to block the execution as prison officials prepared to go through with it. Governor Mary Fallon issued a 37 day stay after it was found. The DOC received the wrong drug. And I do know there was a point in time, I don't know if it was 2015 or not, but, you know, there was a few years there where they were having trouble getting the drugs. They were, some places had the wrong drugs. There were lethal injections that were not taking place.

[Mike Gibson]

Definitely causing some problems.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it caused problems, but, you know, let's go back to knowing that you're going to die on a certain day and then you get a reprieve. In this case, it's 37 days, Gibbs. You know you have 37 more days to live. I don't know how someone processes that.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't either.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now if Richard had something to do with the murder, then I'm not all that worried about it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you don't care.

[Mike Ferguson]

Why would you care if he's an innocent man? Boy, it really makes it tough, right, to think about knowing that you're going to die in 37 days.

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[Mike Ferguson]

October 2nd, the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals put all executions on indefinite hold for an inquiry into execution procedures. The moratorium ended on September 20, 2021 when the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals scheduled seven executions. In March 2022, Richard married anti death penalty advocate Leah Roger. He was 59 at the time. She was 32. So quite a disparity in age. It is something sounds like a relationship.

[Mike Gibson]

You might have kind of close just a little bit smaller gap in this.

[Mike Ferguson]

Was Richard's second marriage. In 2018 he married a New Jersey woman named Leah Joy Jurassic. She was 21 at the time. They divorced in 2021. She later said she believes Richard took advantage of her and she regrets the marriage. The AP quoted her as saying, I am older, wiser and have learned a lot since my marriage ended. I could not be more happy to be on the other side of that. I bet you've also made the decision to marry a man on death row.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly. I mean, not really sure how he took advantage of her while he was on death row.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, there was nothing in the research that was that you know, detailed to say how she thought he took advantage of her. But we talk a lot about why would somebody marry a person in prison. Now sometimes those people are serial killers that I don't understand at all.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure, yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now you're talking about this Leah Roger who is an anti death penalty advocate and I'm sure she was probably working on Richard's case or something to that effect and believed completely in her heart that he wasn't guilty.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, and sometimes when you're working so close with somebody, motions are there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. You could develop a bond.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you could.

[Mike Ferguson]

In 2021, state legislators commissioned the Texas law firm Reed Smith to conduct an independent review of Richard's case. Reed Smith spent over a year conducting the investigation, interviewing over 40 witnesses, gathering records, and producing reports. The final report was released on June 15, 2022. The firm determined no reasonable jury would have convicted Richard Glossip.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, that's a big finding.

[Mike Ferguson]

It is a huge finding. I'm also amazed that, you know, the state is going to this link, because you don't see that very often. Right. Normally, what you see is the state kind of fighting to keep the conviction.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

But here it seemed like some people had some real concerns about putting this guy to death.

[Mike Gibson]

So before we move forward, let's make sure we're in a good spot, guys. And sounds like now they have to consider, are they really in a good spot moving forward? I don't think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, according to this independent law firm, no, they're not. But that is what you want to see. Right. You don't want someone put to death if there are any concerns about that person's guilt. During the review, Reed Smith discovered that Justin Sneed was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and prescribed lithium while incarcerated at trial, and he testified that he had never seen a psychiatrist. His attorneys were not made aware of his condition. The former prosecutor appointed to review the case wrote, the state's murder case against Glossett was not particularly strong and would have been, in my view, weaker if full discovery had been provided. And I think that's a sentiment argued by a lot of defense attorneys. Right. If we'd have known about this or that.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Because it sometimes does come out years later that something was withheld. Maybe it constitutes a brady violation, maybe it doesn't. But it's something that the defense team thinks they could have worked with if they had known about it during a trial.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it changes your whole game plan.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could. On July 1, 2022, Richard was one of 25 inmates scheduled for execution. His execution date was set for September 22. In August, 71, lawmakers urged the Oklahoma Attorney General to support Richard's request for a new hearing. And again, I'm kind of blown away by this, Gibbs. This is not what we normally see, but you have a number of legislators, lawmakers kind of viewing this as a Real concern. And at the very least, they're supporting a new hearing with all the facts laid out there. Maybe to feel better about whatever decision is made.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, there seems to be a lot of uncertainty, which is the last.

[Mike Ferguson]

Thing you want when somebody is about ready to be put to death.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you should feel really good about the court's decision to move forward with it. And if you don't, I think you got to stop and pause and kind.

[Mike Ferguson]

Of figure it out, which sounds like what they're doing. On August 16th, the governor granted Richard a 60 day stay of execution. So this is number three. Right. He's had three different execution dates, and this is his third stay. That month. The firm Reed Smith cited the need for an evidentiary hearing and released new evidence, including a 2000 letter from Justin Sneed, implying his testimony was a mistake.

[Mike Gibson]

It's a big piece right there.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it could be. Sneed wrote to public defender Gina Walker. First off, before I get too deep into this letter, I need to know if you are still there. Like work there still. There are a lot of things right now that are eating at me. Some things I need to clean up. If I can't get into contact with you or anyone who gets your mail, I'm going to try to contact the indigent defense over his case or the DA's. I think you know where I'm going. It was a mistake reliving this. Please write me back so I can talk to you further. So, I mean, to me, Gibbs, it's clear he wants to tell her something. He wants to get something off his chest that has to do with Richard's case. The public defender responded and suggested that if he recanted his story, he would face the death penalty.

[Mike Gibson]

So is that a. That's good. You want to tell the truth, and you should, but FYI, if you do.

[Mike Ferguson]

This could happen to you.

[Mike Gibson]

This could happen to you. Just full disclosure.

[Mike Ferguson]

Which, let's be fair, if he did lie, it was probably the reason why he lied in the first place. Because he didn't get the death penalty because of his cooperation.

[Listener/Caller]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

On November 3, 2022, Richard was granted another stay to allow the Court of Criminal Appeals to address his pending proceedings. His execution was rescheduled for February 16, 2023. But then in January of 23, his execution was rescheduled to May 18 of that year. And, you know, we talked about it a little bit, but, you know, these dates of when you're being told you're going to be put to death.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

What A roller coaster ride.

[Mike Gibson]

Oh, man.

[Mike Ferguson]

I mean, even for a guilty person, it would be a roller coaster ride. For a person who claims they're innocent and let's just say is innocent, that would be really tough. In March 2023, Oklahoma Attorney General Gentner Drummond announced they would seek to stay the execution to allow an independent counsel to review the case. Drummond does not believe Richard is completely innocent and is guilty of at least accessory after the fact for his failure to tell detectives about Justin Sneed's statements. Drummond does not believe Richard is guilty of first degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt. This is the Attorney General that's pretty big saying, I don't think this guy on death row is guilty of first degree murder. On April 6, 2023, due to evidence of serious prosecutorial misconduct revealed by the Independent Review, Attorney General Drummond filed a motion asking the Oklahoma Court of Criminal Appeals to call off the execution, vacate the conviction, and grant Richard a new trial. Drummond conceded that prosecutors violated their constitutional duties when they used false evidence and suppressed other evidence.

[Mike Gibson]

This is big.

[Mike Ferguson]

This is huge. And I think it's what should scare the shit out of everyone. The idea or even the thought that you could be charged and convicted based on things that are not true. Yeah, that is a very scary thought.

[Mike Gibson]

So the highest law enforcement individual for the state of Oklahoma is saying, we didn't do this right, folks. We need to pull back, reexamine it, and do a new trial.

[Mike Ferguson]

And I will say this, I applaud him for that because we've seen it time and time again, Gibbs, where it's like, people don't want to admit that mistakes were made, even if it was by their predecessors. But that doesn't seem like what happened here. Drummond wrote in his brief, as quoted by the Equal Justice Initiative, the prospect of executing an individual based on a conviction that the state's chief law enforcement officer believes after careful scrutiny was secured by prosecutorial misconduct in violation of due process, is all but unthinkable. Our system of justice places awesome powers and responsibilities in the hands of prosecutors. When those prosecutors themselves recognize that they have overstepped, that judgment cannot be dismissed as just another litigation position.

[Mike Gibson]

Well said.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, I think it's very well said. It's also something that we've talked about before. Are prosecutors out to seek the truth, or are they out to convict at all costs?

[Mike Gibson]

Sometimes it seems like they are.

[Mike Ferguson]

And yeah, to me, that is the wrong way to go about it. Now, sometimes they might believe that a person is truly guilty, but if they have evidence that contradicts that and it's suppressed. I mean, that is just so blatantly wrong.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. I mean, you've had two independent firms look at the case, both citing the same. Then you have the top law enforcement person for Oklahoma backing that up. I mean, that should carry a lot of weight.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it should. But on April 20, 2023, the Court of Criminal Appeals rejected the Attorney General's motion and confirmed the May 18th execution date.

[Mike Gibson]

Wow, that's just a shocker.

[Mike Ferguson]

Drummond issued a statement per the eji. While I respect the Court of Criminal Appeals opinion, I'm not willing to allow an execution to proceed despite so many doubts. Ensuring the integrity of the death penalty demands complete certainty. I will thoroughly review the ruling and consider what steps should be taken to ensure justice. And I'm liking this guy. I am. Because he's basically saying, I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to figure out a way to not allow this execution to go through.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I mean, he said it perfectly. Right. I mean, if we're going to. If we want to keep the integrity of the death penalty where it's at, we need to make sure it's deserved.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yes. I mean, there's no way around it.

[Mike Gibson]

And I don't think no matter what side of the fence you're on, you can't really feel good about the direction this is headed right now.

[Mike Ferguson]

No, no. I mean, obviously, if you're anti death penalty, this is just another reason.

[Mike Gibson]

Sure.

[Mike Ferguson]

To be against it. But even if you're for the death penalty.

[Mike Gibson]

Right.

[Mike Ferguson]

Or you're okay with it.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

You can't be okay with a person who is innocent, or even potentially innocent, to be sent off to be killed. You can't be okay with that.

[Mike Gibson]

I think you just got to pull back the reins and say, okay, let's dive back into the skin. Let's make sure, Double check, triple check, that we're going the right direction with this, folks.

[Mike Ferguson]

A hearing was scheduled for April 26 before the parole and Pardon Board, which has the power to recommend clemency to the governor. Many thought the board would vote for clemency, but the board was tied 2 2, which meant a default denial of clemency. The Attorney General appeared at the hearing along with other prominent lawmakers. Christina Vital, a lawyer who was part of the Reed Smith investigation, presented evidence that had come to light in the past year, including letters from Justin Sneed to his attorney expressing a desire to recant his testimony. The evidence also included the contents of a box from the DA's office. That was turned over to investigators in January 2023. The box contained notes written by prosecutors revealing that after the murder, Justin Sneed was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and prescribed lithium in prison. As we talked about earlier at trial, he denied that the evaluation ever took place. So, I mean, it's clear that they knew about this, but it was not disclosed to the defense. Yeah. Now, whether that was something that legally they had to disclose, I don't know.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, I think it speaks to the credibility of Justin.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, well, we talked about it. Right. He was on meth. He was. He was doing some other things. If he also had, you know, some mental health issues to the point where he was prescribed lithium. Okay. Is there an argument to be made around that as to the validity of some of his statements? Richard made a brief statement at the hearing and said, in part, I'm not a murderer, and I don't deserve to die for this. Later that afternoon, Richard's attorney filed for a stay of execution from the Supreme Court. He argued that the fifth board member who withdrew due to a conflict of interest should have been replaced to avoid a tie. The defense also cited the new evidence, casting doubt on Justin Sneed's reliability.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, I agree with them. I mean, if you knew you had a conflict, they should have brought somebody else in. Knowing that the potential was to have a tie when you only have four people. Hard to have a majority.

[Mike Ferguson]

Harder, less likely.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes, Exactly. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

On May 5, 2023, the Supreme Court stayed Richard's execution pending the outcome of his petitions. On January 22, 2024, the Supreme Court agreed to hear Richard and the Attorney General's appeal. Over a year later, on February 25, 2025, the Supreme Court ruled that the state of Oklahoma must grant Richard a new trial because his conviction and sentence were tainted by prosecutorial misconduct. The court ruled it was unconstitutional for the prosecutor to have knowingly elicited false testimony and suppress evidence, compromising the key witness in the case.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, do it the right way, folks.

[Mike Ferguson]

But it took until 2025 this year, Gibbs, for all of this to kind of culminate. The Supreme Court found that the only direct evidence of Glossip's guilt of capital murder was provided by a witness whose statements the prosecution knew were false as he testified to them. Yeah, I mean, that is really tough. The suppression of additional evidence reinforced the court's conclusion that Richard's due process was violated. AG Drummond and Oklahoma County DA Vicki Behenna, who once directed the Oklahoma Innocence Project, will review the evidence and make a decision about whether to prosecute. So, Gibbs, as we wrap this one up, it is possible that Richard Glossop will be retried for murder. He could be retried on a lesser charge, or he could not be retried and completely released from prison. I think what he has going in his favor is that the Attorney General seems to be on his side. The other person helping to make the decision about whether to prosecute was once the director of the Oklahoma Innocence Project.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

So I think you have two people who seem to be very fair and balanced who are going to make this decision. I would be shocked if he was retried for first degree murder. Shocked.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Same here.

[Mike Ferguson]

Based on the evidence that they had. Because what was the evidence? Right. The Supreme Court said it. Basically, it was Justin Sneed's testimony and not really much more than that. So if he's made statements that he wants to recant and, you know, the defense would have all of this ammunition about his drug use, his psychiatric diagnosis. Would a jury see it the same way that the first jury did? And my thought is probably not.

[Mike Gibson]

No, I don't think so.

[Mike Ferguson]

Now, does that mean that Richard had nothing to do with this? I can't sit here and say that.

[Mike Gibson]

No, can't.

[Mike Ferguson]

There is a distinction to be made between being innocent and the state having enough to prove you're guilty.

[Mike Gibson]

Yes.

[Mike Ferguson]

Does that make sense?

[Mike Gibson]

It does. Yep.

[Mike Ferguson]

I thought this is a fascinating case that is still going on right now. But when you think about the timeline. Right. The murder happened in 97, he's convicted in 98, and here we are now in 2025. He's faced the brink of execution three times. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Been in prison for 20 plus years.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yep. And still has to wait to see what his fate will be. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, maybe they're in coming up with some type of agreement that he's found guilty at a lesser charge.

[Mike Ferguson]

Time served. Yeah.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, you don't have to pay him out.

[Mike Ferguson]

It could be. It could end up being an offered plea like the West Memphis Three did, just to get out of prison and be done with it. We don't know. Or they could just say, hey, you've already served almost 30 years in prison.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

We're not going to retry you. Live the rest of your life. Good luck to you. I don't know. But that's it for our episode on Richard Glossa. We got some voicemails. You want to check those out?

[Mike Gibson]

Let's hear them.

[Listener/Caller]

Hey, Mike and Gibby. I just wanted to call him that. I'm a huge Fan. I hate to upset either of you, but I am Team Gibby. Sorry, Mike, but yeah, I have been listening to you guys for years. You bring a lot of kindness and empathy to your stories. But also, you know, we love to hear you guys rib on the killers as well. But hey, I did have suggestion for you to maybe cover the San Yesadero.

[Mike Gibson]

It just cut off just like that. Yeah, no worries at it though.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, San Isidro.

[Mike Gibson]

I don't.

[Mike Ferguson]

I'd have to look it up, but.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah, you're close.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's how you say it.

[Mike Gibson]

I was going to correct it for you, but I'll just let you go at that.

[Mike Ferguson]

I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, we'll look it up. But I wanted to play it, you know, he's Team Gibby, which, you know, is cool.

[Mike Gibson]

Which is awesome.

[Mike Ferguson]

If you want to go that route, obviously.

[Mike Gibson]

Probably another member of Mensa.

[Mike Ferguson]

A lot of members of Mensa in your fan base. In your fan base somehow.

[Listener/Caller]

Hi, my name is Christina. I'm from Tampa, Florida. And I just wanted to tell you guys how much I love your podcast. And I kind of had a suggestion. I don't know if you guys have ever done the story. I didn't find it when I searched, but for Kelly Ann Beats, really interesting story. Just came across it and I think you guys would do really well to cover it. I love Gibby. Gibby isms. I kind of miss when he used to tell us the price of inflation. But anyway, I love you guys. You guys are both awesome. Podcast is great. And keep your own time ticking.

[Mike Ferguson]

All right.

[Mike Gibson]

I'll say whoop, whoop, back at you.

[Mike Ferguson]

But hey, we actually did a little inflation. We did in this episode. Yeah. Just always do it. But we. We did it.

[Mike Gibson]

You and the rest of Tampa.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. Woo. Woo.

[Mike Gibson]

Yeah. Big, big, big Gibby Men's AP in Tampa. Yeah.

[Mike Ferguson]

Everybody going woo, woo.

[Mike Gibson]

Exactly.

[Mike Ferguson]

We actually had some mailbag this week. Aaron Bizarro and Kevin Nunetz sent us a wedding invitation.

[Mike Gibson]

Well, you have to share it with me.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well, it's in Massachusetts.

[Mike Gibson]

Maybe I'll go.

[Mike Ferguson]

So we'll have to talk about it.

[Mike Gibson]

But I wonder what. They had a. I think they had to keep Aaron's last name.

[Mike Ferguson]

That's a pretty cool. I know. Bizarro is a badass name, dude.

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, I like Kevin's last name too.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah. I'm not downplaying.

[Mike Gibson]

Think about it. Aaron, that last name, you know, or.

[Mike Ferguson]

Maybe hyphenate or do something like that. That would be cool. Yeah. And then Mike Walston sent in a signed Lieutenant Joe Kenda piece for the studio.

[Mike Gibson]

That's awesome.

[Mike Ferguson]

Yeah, it's very cool.

[Mike Gibson]

Is it going to replace the piece that you put up that I signed.

[Mike Ferguson]

That is worth exactly zero?

[Mike Gibson]

I mean, it's actually negative.

[Mike Ferguson]

It's lost value somehow. Since you signed it, you're like, why.

[Mike Gibson]

Did you sign that?

[Mike Ferguson]

The piece of paper that you signed was actually worth at least $0.01. And now it's worth. Sorry. No. But we appreciate it very much. All right, Gibbs, that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep. Keep your own time ticking. Sa.