Shawn Johnson

Summary

True Crime All The Time — Episode 459: Shawn Johnson

Release Date: November 10, 2025
Hosts: Mike Ferguson and Mike Gibson
Podcast Theme: Deep dives into both famous and lesser-known true crime cases, with a serious investigative approach but light-hearted banter between the hosts.

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Episode Overview

This episode unpacks the mysterious and brutal 2003 murder of Shawn Johnson, an outgoing stagehand from Atlanta, who was killed after a work trip to New Orleans. The hosts take listeners through Johnson's background, the bizarre and ritualistic-looking crime scene, and the investigation that followed, ultimately revealing the truth behind the murder and the fates of those involved.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Shawn Johnson: Background & New Orleans Trip

• Shawn Johnson: Born in 1968, Atlanta resident, father of one, described as fun-loving and emotionally present by his son and girlfriend.

  • Quote: “Some things I miss about my dad, you could always count on him for a good time, no matter what it was.” — (07:04)

• Work Trip Details:

  • Shawn traveled to New Orleans in July 2003 for a Microsoft convention as a stagehand.
  • Loved the vibrant atmosphere; extended stay to enjoy nightlife, including Bourbon Street and French Quarter bars.

Discovery of the Crime

• Body Found: On July 20, hotel housekeeper found Shawn dead in the Jacuzzi, water bloody, the room in disarray. (12:08)

  • Notable clues: laceration on head, but cause of death was ultimately drowning.

• Bizarre Scene Details:

  • Bible pages torn and stuck to surfaces after being soaked, a rag doll with a dog collar and moss, numerous champagne bottles, broken glass.
  • Suspicion of a ritualistic or cult connection due to these objects.
    • Quote: “That’s very strange. It almost makes it seem as though… maybe this murder was committed by someone who was extremely religious. But then would that person really rip the pages out of a Bible?” — Mike (13:53)

Early Leads and Theories

• Initial Suspicions: Not a straightforward robbery despite the missing money — scene seemed staged or symbolic.

• Unique Aspects:

  • Group of four (2 men, 2 women) seen accompanying Shawn in gothic attire per hotel surveillance.
  • Rag doll identified as a “familiar” object favored within the local Goth community.
    • “It’s an object that an individual will hold in close personal connection as though it were a living being…” — Detective Winston Harbin (23:32)

• Noise Complaint (7:15 AM):

  • Neighbor reported hearing “I am the Lord and you are my servant,” punching, and shouting prior to Shawn’s death. (24:00)

Unraveling the Group: Nicknames & Confessions

• Group’s Street Names: Deirdre (“Deirdre”), Carla (“Never”), her boyfriend (“Worry”), Ben — all using aliases.

• Deirdre Comes Forward: After seeing herself on TV, Deirdre says she left before violence, corroborates “Never” (Carla) was close with the rag doll; helps identify group.

• Tipsters Help Police:

  • Identifications and witness testimony begin to link “Never” as Carla Frock, “Worry” as Chris Lang (or Lane), Ben as Benjamin Anthony.

• Potential Motive:

  • Testimony suggests the plan (by “Worry”) was to “roll” (rob) Shawn — he was a fun, generous out-of-towner buying rounds and inviting strangers back to his suite.

  • Quote: “Carla… was potentially used as the bait to set up the robbery. Worry and Carla, the apparent ringleaders, were still unaccounted for.” — Mike (33:04)

The Truth from the Participants

• Carla’s Changing Story: Initially claims kidnapping and Mafia involvement, alleges “Worry” forced her, calls herself a witness. Later, under pressure, denies participating. (34:31–39:15)

• Ben’s Confession (42:30):

  • Ben describes what happened in the hotel: he, Shawn, and Carla bathing in champagne, Bible pages torn out of boredom, then Worry attacks — hitting Shawn with bottles then forcing his head under water until he drowns.

    • Quote: “Ben explained he was the one who ripped the Bible pages out… just sheer boredom.” — Mike (44:30)
    • “Sean and Carla started getting physical… The next thing Ben saw was Worry… hit him in the head with the bottle… Worry then forced Sean’s head underwater and held him there.” — (45:02)

  • Carla (per Ben) was “giddy and excited” during the murder: “Like, happy and laughing about it… they’re like, 'Don’t worry. We’ve done this before. It’s all right now.'” — Ben, quoted by Mike (46:51)

• No Ritual After All: The “ritualistic” details were accidental (rag doll forgotten, Bible pages glued in boredom) — not related to cult activity.

Apprehending “Worry” (Chris Lane)

• Chris Lane Identified & Arrested:
  • Tracked and arrested in Florida after tips from acquaintances and a stakeout at Denny’s. (52:26–54:32)
  • Chris blames Carla, claims to have blacked out after heavy drinking, alleges Carla killed Shawn (discredited by testimony and forensics).

Trials, Outcomes, and Aftermath

• Charges and Sentences:

  • Carla Frock (“Never”): Charged with second-degree murder, convicted of negligent homicide after hurricane-delayed trial; sentenced to five years. (56:28–58:32)
  • Ben Anthony: Pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact, sentenced to four years.
  • Chris Lane (“Worry”): Pleaded guilty to manslaughter and robbery, 40-year sentence; committed suicide in prison in 2013.

• Hurricane Katrina's Impact:

  • Case delayed, evidence lost or destroyed, witnesses dispersed.

• Post-release Developments:

  • Carla re-arrested in 2023 for theft and drug charges, further charged for chemical endangerment of a child after her child brought drug paraphernalia to school.

Reflections on the Case

• Hosts’ Conclusions:

  • Shawn was targeted as an out-of-town “mark” by self-described “predators.”

  • Uncertainty remains over full extent of Carla and Ben’s involvement, but possible they had more of a role than convictions suggest.

  • Quote: “When it comes down to it, this is a very sad case. You have this very outgoing person… and he had no idea that his fun night out would put him in the path of these kind of predators.” — Mike (63:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bourbon Street danger:

  • “New Orleans has a… just has a different type of vibe. You know, there is Bourbon street, there’s a lot of bars. I once lost my debit card at a work conference on Bourbon Street.” — Mike (05:41)

• On the ritualistic scene:

  • “What do you make, I think, if you’re investigators, of these pages of the bible plastered all over, what’s with this rag doll?” — Mike (14:43)

• On group nicknames:

  • “I wonder if Worry and Never were actually known as Never Worry.” — Gibson (26:17)
  • “Who’s coming up with these names? There is a lot of names here and they’re all strange.” — Mike (30:59)

• On investigating street-named suspects:

  • “I think it’s hard, maybe not impossible, but you’re making out warrants and stuff. Who you after? Never and worry. Okay, we’re going to need a little bit more than that.” — Mike (30:46)

• Ben Anthony's matter-of-fact confession:

  • “He had no explanation [for tearing out Bible pages] other than just sheer boredom.” — Mike (44:30)
  • “Ben also claimed Carla… was not troubled by the murder. He was asked what Carla was doing during the attack. Ben said she seemed happy. Like, happy and laughing about it.” — Mike (46:51)

• On Katrina’s impact:

  • “CBS reported in October 2005 that prosecutors didn’t know whether the champagne bottle used as the murder weapon was destroyed or buried by floodwaters.” — Mike (57:27)
  • “A lot of evidence was lost due to flooding, which affected numerous cases.” — Gibson / Mike (57:15)

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Key Timestamps

• 05:11 – Introduction to Shawn Johnson’s murder
• 12:08 – Shawn’s body discovered; bizarre scene described
• 14:43 – Bible pages, rag doll, and hints at ritualism
• 24:00 – Neighbor hears “I am the Lord and you are my servant”
• 26:17–30:59 – Uncovering the group’s identities (“Worry,” “Never,” etc.)
• 33:04–34:37 – Robbery plot emerges; Carla’s shifting story
• 42:30–47:14 – Ben Anthony’s confession and facts of the murder
• 52:26–54:32 – Chris Lane identified and apprehended
• 56:28–58:32 – Trials, verdicts, sentences, and Katrina’s effect
• 61:07–61:42 – Carla’s later arrests, child endangerment
• 63:24–64:57 – Hosts reflect on the tragedy, lessons, and unresolved questions

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Tone and Host Dynamic

The episode balances serious investigative work and somber analysis with characteristic humor and banter. The hosts use dry wit to comment on the surreality of the case details (e.g., street names and rag dolls) while emphasizing the tragedy and senselessness of the crime. They reflect on justice, culpability, and the randomness with which lives intersect in such true crime cases.

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Summary Takeaway

An initially baffling, almost ritualistic seeming murder turns out to be a callous—if opportunistic—robbery gone wrong, with suspects who hide behind shifting stories and street names. The case offers insight into the vulnerabilities of strangers in tourist cities, the difficulties of solving crimes involving transient or marginal groups, and the resilience—and failures—of the justice system, especially when disrupted by disasters like Hurricane Katrina. The fate of the key players post-prison suggests a cycle of crime and consequence is hard to break.

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For True Crime All The Time fans and newcomers alike, this episode serves up a gripping, detailed journey through a lesser-known but extraordinarily strange and tragic crime, filtered through the hosts’ trademark blend of seriousness and levity.

Transcript

[A]

You know, folks, everyone in my family, and I'm including myself here, has a bad habit of signing up for things subscriptions with the intent to cancel at some point. We just never do. So we end up with a lot of subscriptions that we're not using, and that adds up to a lot of dollars. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. And who doesn't need that? Their dashboard lays out your total financial picture, including bill due dates and paydays, in a way that's very easy to digest. You can even automatically create custom budgets based on your past spending. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over 880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. And I've been using Rocket Money for years now. I know it has saved me a bundle of money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com tcat today. That's RocketMoney.com tcatt RocketMoney.com tcat. Hello, everyone, and welcome to episode 459 of the True Crime all the Time podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson, and with me, as always, is my partner in true crime, Mike Gibson. Gibby, how are you?

[B]

Hey, I'm doing pretty good. How about you?

[A]

I'm doing great. Yeah, you and I just talked about on. On Patreon, you know what we're watching. And I'm really into this show called 60 Days In.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where they. These people sign up to go to a prison and I cannot figure out for the life of me why anyone would do that.

[B]

Like, you should try it out.

[A]

But it's a very interesting show. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Linda Sinclair.

[B]

Hey, Linda.

[A]

Laura Davis.

[B]

Hey. Thank you, Laura.

[A]

Cindy.

[B]

What's going on, Cindy?

[A]

Katie Coplin.

[B]

Hey, Katie.

[A]

Sam Buckmiller.

[B]

Oh, there's Sam.

[A]

Rusty Ingerson.

[B]

What's going on, Rusty?

[A]

Constance Klein.

[B]

Constance.

[A]

Irene Morales and Dino.

[B]

Oh, hey, Irene.

[A]

Ryan from Texas.

[B]

Well, thanks, Ryan.

[A]

And last but not least, Michaela Brown jumped out at her highest level.

[B]

Wow, that's awesome. Thank you, Kayla.

[A]

Yeah, we appreciate that new support. And then if we go back into the vault, this week, we selected Rex West.

[B]

Whoa. That's huge. He is such an awesome person. I think people should get his name tattooed on him. That's how awesome he is.

[A]

Awesome he is.

[B]

Yeah. Rex west, man.

[A]

So if you're on Patreon, then you've heard this story before, but if you're not, I did not know that the person who signed up on Patreon as Rex west was you. Because you didn't tell me.

[B]

Well, mystery.

[A]

And all of a sudden, Rex west started posting things on Patreon that made it seem as though he was part of the show.

[B]

Because he was.

[A]

But I didn't know it was you. And I started. And other people started messaging me. They're like, who is this guy? And I'm like, I don't know.

[B]

He's making comments on. About the show, but who is he?

[A]

Yeah, I thought it was somebody pretending to be you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because first of all, you literally pay to be a Patreon member, and that's just something I did not think you would do.

[B]

I know, it's shocking.

[A]

It is shocking.

[B]

But it's the only way I can get on Patreon because they don't give me access. They only allow you access.

[A]

Yeah. And I can't give anyone access to Patreon. It's just how it works. We have a brand new episode out right now on True Crime all the Time Unsolved, where we're talking about the death of Michelle o'. Connell. There have been questions regarding Michelle's death for over a decade now. Michelle was a young mother from Florida who was in a relationship with the sheriff's deputy. Her death is officially declared a suicide, but there are a number of experts who believe the evidence points to a homicide. Now, we've done cases where the family believes, and I'm sure the family does here as well, but we also have a number of experts who do not believe her death was a suicide.

[B]

So we'll see what. So listen and make your decision.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, definitely check it out, because it's a. It's a very interesting case. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the Time?

[B]

I am ready.

[A]

We're talking about Shawn Johnson. Shawn Johnson traveled to New Orleans for a work conference. He was eager to explore the city and meet new people. But Sean was found dead in his hotel room on the last day of his trip. Investigators set out to identify four people captured on surveillance entering Sean's hotel room before he was killed. So, you know, New Orleans, I know, is one of the. Our favorite cities.

[B]

Enjoyed it a lot.

[A]

Yeah, we've been there multiple times. It's just a fun city. Now, it can also be A very dangerous city. It can be as almost any city can be. Right. Any big city can be dangerous. But New Orleans has a. Just has a different type of vibe. You know, there is Bourbon street, there's a lot of bars. I once lost my debit card at a work conference on Bourbon Street.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

And was a little inebriated and had no idea where it was and had to cancel it.

[B]

I just remember having so much fun.

[A]

Down there when we went for crime con.

[B]

Went for crime con and we had Bennett.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. I took you to the, the. The fancy hotspot. Not fancy, but the, you know, the trendy spot that everybody goes to. And you loved it.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I think that was your first time ever going.

[B]

You were sipping on some chicory coffee.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good memory, whatever that is.

[A]

Shawn Johnson was born on December 18, 1968. He was only 34 years old when he died. Sean lived in Atlanta, Georgia. He had an 8 year old son named Quinn and shared custody with Quinn's mother. Quinn said about his dad in an interview for the show Fatal Destination. Some things I miss about my dad, you could always count on him for a good time, no matter what it was. Whether you wanted to do something crazy or stay in for the night or whatever.

[B]

Sounds like an awesome dad.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things that make a good dad make a good parent, obviously, you know, providing being there emotionally. It also helps when you know you can be fun. Well, while still doing all those things. It's kind of tricky to balance that, but it is.

[B]

But, you know, it's awesome if you can just have a good time with your kids doing silly stuff sometimes.

[A]

Doing whatever. Right. Sean met his girlfriend, Teresa Teague in April 2001 at a rock club show. She saw Sean pull into the parking lot in his convertible. Teresa like Sean's open and friendly vibe and the two fell in love very quickly. Teresa described Sean as a person with unlimited potential. He was intelligent, talented and creative. You know, something that somebody might say about you. I don't know who that person would be. Rex west, but there might be somebody out there. Rex west has told me that you have unlimited potential.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Was it in a mirror? It was like in a scene from Taxi Driver.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

At the age of 25, Sean started a career that turned his life in a new direction. He got into entertainment and show production, which was exciting and something that he excelled at. He worked as a stage rigger for rock concerts for seven years. Sean was an extrovert, so being on the road and constantly Meeting new people suited him. And some people are extroverts, some people are introverts. And I do think your personality does kind of set you up to really excel at some jobs. It would also make it tougher to excel at others.

[B]

I mean, I think you're one of those people that can float in between.

[A]

You mean I can be whatever I need to be?

[B]

I think so, yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I can be.

[B]

I think you prefer to be intro. Yes, but I've seen you where you're.

[A]

Yeah, I can be. I have no problem hanging out with a bunch of people. But you're right if my preference is to be in small groups or even to. To be by myself sometimes, you know, I like that time alone. But I. I do think, you know, if you're in a job like this where you're on the road and you're meeting a lot of new people, you almost have to be an extrovert. Think of like a traveling salesman.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Or a car salesman or something like that. Right. Don't you almost have to be an extrovert to excel in a job like that?

[B]

I would think, yes.

[A]

Because you're meeting a lot of new people. You have to sell not only the car, but you have to sell yourself.

[B]

Well, absolutely. The best salespeople do that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They sell themselves so they can sell whatever else behind it, which I think.

[A]

For an introvert would be much harder to do. In July 2003, Sean traveled to New Orleans to work as a stagehand and set up displays for a Microsoft convention. Sean worked during the day and went out to bars in the French Quarter at night. He decided to stay after the convention ended so he could enjoy the city. Making it a week long trip. And, you know, let's face it, New Orleans is a place that you could spend a whole week. There's a lot to do there.

[B]

Oh, there's plenty to do.

[A]

There's a lot of sightseeing, There's a lot of entertainment, a lot of bars to frequent, and a lot of great restaurants.

[B]

We didn't even get the chance to go down to the cemetery.

[A]

No. And that's the thing about Crimecon. You and I don't get a chance to really do much of anything in whatever city we're going, right? We can have a meal or we can do a little bit, but, you know, we're busy a lot of that time that we're there, so we're not there. We really can't sightsee a bunch. But like I said, I really do love New Orleans. I like bourbon Street. I love the French Quarter. The last time I was there with my family, we stayed at this great hotel in the French Quarter, and they made the best muffaletta sandwiches, which is one of my absolute favorites. You would hate it because it has green olive tapenade on.

[B]

Yeah, not my thing.

[A]

And you do not like green olives. But, man, they were so good.

[B]

Last time we were there together, you were eating some multi seafood dish. It had multiple types of seafood in it.

[A]

Oh, was it like a jambalaya or something like that?

[B]

There was all kind of things in it. And even including some little red, tiny lobster thing.

[A]

Okay, you're not a good person to talk about seafood because you absolutely hate seafood.

[B]

I do. Yeah.

[A]

But Sean was last seen alive in the early morning hours of July 20, 2003, the day he was supposed to come home. At 12:30pm a housekeeper at the hotel found Sean's body floating in the Jacuzzi, which was filled with bloody water.

[B]

Not a pretty scene. No.

[A]

And again, you and I talk about people finding bodies all the time. Can you imagine the number of housekeepers you think about, hotels and motels who have found a dead body?

[B]

Probably more than we realize.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think you're. You're more apt to find a dead body at a hotel or a motel than you are in other professions, I would think. Responding investigators immediately noticed a laceration on the top of Sean's head. It was clear that Sean's death was a homicide and his hotel room was in disarray. There were champagne bottles throughout the room and broken glass next to the tub. So, you know, I think they decided very early on. Right. That this laceration was caused by someone else. It didn't happen as a result of him tripping and, you know, hitting his head and then tumbling into the Jacuzzi. Sean's wallet was in the room, but there was no money inside. However, the crime scene didn't look like a normal robbery. The hotel room Bible was found on the floor with all the pages ripped out. Those pages had been soaked with water and plastered to the wall, floor, and ceiling.

[B]

That's a twist.

[A]

Yeah, that's very strange. I mean, it almost makes it seem as though, you know, maybe this murder was committed by someone who was extremely religious. But then would that person really rip the pages out of a Bible if.

[B]

They were maybe some type of cult.

[A]

Personality, some type of ritual. On the bed was a rag doll with several markings on it. There was moss attached to the doll's hair and a black studded dog collar. On the doll's neck. Okay. Also very strange and, you know, you could say possibly ritualistic as well.

[B]

I mean, you are in New Orleans.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, or some voodoo kind of the.

[A]

The. The home of black magic. Some people might think of it. But these are two things, right. That really stand out. What do you make, I think, if you're investigators, of these pages of the bible plastered all over, you know, what's with this rag doll? What are the markings on it? Why is there a dog collar on the doll's neck? After Sean's body was removed, detectives found two champagne bottles under him, One shattered and one intact. It also sounds like there was one heck of a party going on at some point. In the descriptions of this room. There are a lot of champagne bottles mentioned.

[B]

Yeah. Someone's celebrating something.

[A]

Investigators suspected the broken bottle might be the murder weapon. According to prosecutor Sonny Funk. Sean was hit so hard that his brain hit both sides of his head.

[B]

Wow, That's a lot of force.

[A]

It really is. I mean, you think about, like, a. Like an NFL running back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Suffering a concussion. He's running in to someone else with his head at such speed and force that it's causing the brain to move around inside of his head.

[B]

So someone swinging this champagne bottle. It fits the weapon pretty damn hard.

[A]

Well, that assumes that it was that type of hit that caused his brain to hit both sides of his head. It could be. It could also be, you know, he was thrown, pushed into something. I don't know. The autopsy report stated that Sean didn't die from the blows to the head. He could have survived the head trauma. His cause of death was drowning. Shawn's family didn't know of anyone who would have wanted to harm him. According to Sean's girlfriend, Shawn didn't have a malicious cell in his body, and it was inconceivable to her that anyone would want to do harm to Sean. And I think a lot of family members would feel that way unless they knew specifically that their loved one was in, you know, had a beef with somebody or there was something going on. I mean, I would say that about my girls. I don't know anyone that doesn't really like them that would wish harm upon them.

[B]

Could you say that about me?

[A]

No. There are. There are people that. That would be okay if. If harm came to you now. None of the people listening, but people in our real, actual lives, possibly. You know, you are a manager and have been of a lot of people, as have I. And when you have a job like that, you're you're not going to be always the most well liked person.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

You know, when you have to fire people or discipline people, there are some that are not going to like you. It just comes with the territory.

[B]

I really need those TPS reports, you know, and sometimes they don't like it when I push on that right people.

[A]

You know, and you keep stealing their staplers and sent that one guy to.

[B]

The basement with his red staple.

[A]

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[B]

Man, that sounds like a interesting place to go chill out at.

[A]

Well, you know, when you have a bar that doesn't even open until midnight, it's, it's going to be a pretty interesting place. Now you put it on Bourbon Street.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where the party almost never stops. Okay, what's going on at 4, 5, 6 o' clock in the morning?

[B]

I'm wondering, you know, like most bars close at 2:30 around here, if not sooner, but if they stay open, it's 2:30. So when those people leave at 2:30, I mean, what condition are they in when they roll into this place? You know what I mean?

[A]

That, that, yeah, that's open toy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But most people have already shut it down by midnight. This place doesn't even open until midnight. But I do want to get back to, you know, people not knowing anyone who would want to do Sean harm. And you think about somebody in their life at home and I think for most people that's probably true. But we're talking about a place like Bourbon Street. It's not all that hard, Gibbs, to run into somebody or rub somebody the wrong way, especially if alcohol is involved.

[B]

Oh yeah, sure.

[A]

And you know, maybe make an enemy pretty quickly in the span of just a couple of hours. So. So I think, you know, as investigators, they have to be thinking about that. Sean's co worker said that he saw him for the last time at the Dungeon with a group of what he called Goths. Police learned that members of the Goth community commonly hung around Jackson Square and befriended tarot card readers in the square. However, the people hanging out in the square were reluctant to talk to the police.

[B]

Well, you know, there's a lot of groups that don't really want to have discussions with the police.

[A]

There's a lot of people nowadays that just don't really want to talk to the police. Police did learn that in the Goth community, the rag dolls like the one found in the hotel room were called familiars.

[B]

Interesting term.

[A]

It is not something I've ever heard of. Well, I don't know why I would. I'm not big in the Goth community.

[B]

Not anymore.

[A]

Not anymore. According to New Orleans detective Winston Harbin, it's an object that an individual will hold in close personal connection as though it were a living being, in some cases a sister or a family member that they've lost. Hence, I think the name or the term familiar. Investigators still had more leads to pursue. The front desk staff reported that they received a noise complaint from the guest next to Sean early that morning around 7.15am the guest claimed he heard a male voice say, I am the Lord and you are my servant. He also heard punching sounds and a man shouting.

[B]

That's kind of interesting to hear that at 7:00 o' clock in the morning. 7:15.

[A]

Well, first of all, I don't want to hear anything at 7:15 in the morning because if I do, that means I'm awake.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm not going to be a happy camper.

[B]

We all know you're not a happy camper until you get in. You're two at minimum. But most likely five cups of coffee.

[A]

Yes. Two at minimum is, is the bare minimum. But you're right, this would be very strange to hear right next door to you in a, in a hotel room. I am the Lord and you are my servant. And then, you know, you're hearing what sounds like a scuffle or punching sounds and a man shouting. Hotel surveillance captured Sean entering the hotel with two women and two men. They were all dressed in gothic clothing. And this lined up with the colleague's statement that Sean was last seen hanging out with a group of goth people. So police have some stuff to go on. Right. They have this person next door to Sean at the hotel hearing things. But I think more importantly, they have surveillance video.

[B]

Yeah. They know exactly where he was and what time that occurred and they have.

[A]

Video of these people that he was with. So police reached out to a local TV station with video enhancement abilities that the station produced still shots of everyone in the video. And released them to the media. Investigators received a call from the 8th district police who reported that a woman was at the station claiming her photo was on tv. This woman has only been identified by her street name, Deirdre. Deirdre told investigators she was hanging out with people she knew as Worry Never and Ben. Worry and Never were a couple, and Ben was just tagging along. She didn't know any of them well and only knew their street names.

[B]

I wonder if Worry and Never were actually known as Never Worry.

[A]

Does seem like that could possibly be the case. These are also very strange street names.

[B]

Yeah, it's not anything close to my street name of Rex West.

[A]

Well, I think you're confusing street name with stage name. And those can often be two very different things.

[B]

Well, that is true.

[A]

I thought your street name was Mike Honcho. Deidre described Never as a petite woman with long blond hair. Worry was tall and thin with short hair. They chose their names because Worry was a person who worried about everything and never was a person who never worried about anything. And that sounds like my wife and I.

[B]

It really does.

[A]

My wife worries about everything. I don't worry about anything.

[B]

I've never met somebody that worries so much about the tiniest thing, the smallest things.

[A]

Yeah. And she likes to voice them at the dinner table, which is why you know about them.

[B]

And you could give rats. You know what?

[A]

I. I just don't worry because I. To me, it just doesn't do anything good. According to Deirdre, Shawn was the life of the party. He was making friends with everyone around him at the bar. Shawn and the others left the bar a little after 5:30am they walked over to Jackson Square. Shawn invited them back to his hotel. He said he had a large Jacuzzi and suggested they have a champagne bath. The group first stopped to pick up champagne before taking a cab to the hotel.

[B]

Your champagne bath, I know you've had several of those back in the day.

[A]

And we all know you would never do that because that would be expensive.

[B]

Yeah. Why do that when you have water for free?

[A]

Right. But you know, I think the timing here. Right. We said this bar didn't even open till 12. I mean, they're shutting it down, at least the bar part of it, at 5:30 in the morning. But they're making plans to continue to party.

[B]

Yeah, we're going to go to the store and pick up some champagne to bathe in.

[A]

They emptied several bottles of champagne into the tub. Sean Never and Ben started taking off their clothes to get in the tub. Deirdre became uncomfortable and decided to leave. I think that's exactly the point where I would decide to leave as well.

[B]

When everybody's getting naked.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is like. Have you ever seen the old Saturday Night Live skit with Will Ferrell where they're in the Jacuzzi and they always have, like the guest stars in the Jacuzzi with them?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's very uncomfortable. On her way out, never told her, you don't know how much fun you're gonna miss. Deirdre was adamant that she left before anything happened. So we said, right, police have a lot to go on. They have the surveillance video from that, they're able to develop stills. And once they're put out in the media, this lady Deirdre just shows up at the station and says, hey, my picture's on tv.

[B]

Yeah, what's going on?

[A]

So I think to come forward like that, you're either wanting to be truthful and clear your name or you're wanting to get ahead of the other people coming in and tell the story the way you want it told because you had more to do with it than what you're going to tell police. You did. And I think police have to figure out which kind of camp she's in.

[B]

Yeah. Is she innocent or does she have something to do with this? I kind of lean. I would think she probably doesn't have anything to do with it because why would you put yourself out there?

[A]

Yeah, I think the flip side to that would be I'm going to come forward because then they're not going to think that I had anything to do with it. Right. If I come forward first and tell my story, I can minimize my role, but I'm with you. I kind of. I feel like more likely than not, she's being honest. Deirdre revealed that the rag doll belonged to Never. It was one of her prized possessions. She provided photos of Never from her boyfriend's camera. Police still needed real names, though, in order to make an arrest. I think it's hard, maybe not impossible, but you're making out warrants and stuff. Who you after? Never and worry. Okay, we're going to need a little bit more than that.

[B]

I think it's going to be kind of difficult to locate.

[A]

Detective Winston Harbin learned about an ex girlfriend of Worry's who went by the name Spin. First of all, who's coming up with these names? There is a lot of names here and they're all strange. Spen worked at a voodoo shop in the French Quarter. She claimed they only dated a couple of months. And she didn't know Worry's legal name. She thought his last name was Italian and his first name was Chris or Christian. Detective Harbin wasn't sure if she was lying or not. And again, I think, you know, from the police's standpoint, that's something they struggle with with a lot of people in these cases. Right. You're getting information, but is the person giving you the information being truthful or not? Because that's all that really matters.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, the accuracy of the information might not be that good.

[A]

Later that afternoon, two sources called the police with a tip about the woman called Never. They identified her as 20 year old Carla Frock from Mobile, Alabama. Detective Harbin contacted the Mobile PD who produced a record for Carla. The second source mentioned that Carla wore a wig and didn't actually have long blonde hair. The following day, a man named Jerry Lambert flagged the police down in Jackson Square. He claimed he knew why Shawn was killed. He was in the square that night and talked to the group. Shawn invited everyone back to his hotel. Carla, AKA Never pulled Sean to the side, leaving Worry with Jerry and the others. Worry told Jerry they were going to roll Sean, meaning rob him. Worry seemed to be looking for help, but Jerry said no. So again, right. Police are just, they're getting flooded with information.

[B]

I mean, you can see where a group might do something like this. You know, you have this guy drinking all night with you, talks about, let's go buy a bunch of champagne, he's.

[A]

From out of town, staying in a.

[B]

Hotel room, maybe flashing some of the money around.

[A]

Maybe. But if this Jerry guy was telling the truth right then he really kind of provided the motive for the murder. Police began to suspect that Carla was potentially used as the bait to set up the robbery. Worrying Carla. The apparent ringleaders were still unaccounted for. On July 25, 2003, detectives received word from Manatee County, Florida, about 700 miles away from New Orleans. Authorities had an individual in custody named Carla Fry, who showed up at the hospital and claimed to be a victim of kidnapping and sexual assault. Carla told Deputy Bill Waldron an Italian man kidnapped her and her boyfriend Wort he killed a man in his hotel room while he was in the Jacuzzi. According to Carla, the killer held her and Worry prisoner for several days in a trailer. She escaped after he sexually assaulted her. She thought her boyfriend was behind her. She heard gunshots, turned around and saw Worry on the ground. She was able to flag down a ride to the hospital. So I mean this is quite a story if true. Obviously it would be extremely horrific, but according to Deputy Waldron, Carla was detached and unemotional as she told the story, at least to him. He thought she was holding something back.

[B]

Not being completely forthcoming.

[A]

Yeah, honest about it.

[C]

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[A]

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[B]

Wouldn't there be a easier way to go about getting treatment for a uti?

[A]

Well, I mean, if you don't have insurance and you don't have the money to pay for it. Maybe that was their thinking. Now, this could also be a lie, right? The UTI could be part of the lie as well, because what she could really be trying to do is distance herself from the murder in this hotel room. Waldron asked for her boyfriend's real name, but Carla maintained that she only knew him as Worry. I mean, that's at least the second time we've said that. Do you find that strength, you know, if you're with somebody as boyfriend, girlfriend, or boyfriend, boyfriend, girlfriend, girlfriend, doesn't matter. But if you're with somebody for any extended period of time, would you not, at some point, learn their legal name?

[B]

I would think, yes.

[A]

I get it. On the street, they go by these other names, but, you know, when you're alone, it's got to come up at some point, right? Hey, what's your real name? I mean, at some point when you're being intimate. Are you saying worry Never. I mean, it doesn't seem like that would be the. The best way to go about it.

[B]

What are you, like, never? And never's like, wait, no, no.

[A]

It's almost like that. That old who's on first routine. Yeah. Waldron asked for her story in more detail this time. She blamed Worry for everything and claimed she was just a witness. And, you know, again, the. The changing of someone's story. It's very interesting how some of these stories morph, right, as they're told from being kidnapped and assaulted by some strange Italian man to. No, that was all a lie. My boyfriend Worry did it. I was there, but I was just a witness. I didn't actually do anything.

[B]

And we know police love that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, obviously they don't, but. But why does it really happen? People are just trying to squirm their way out of getting into trouble. That's. That's what I always believe. And they'll change their story. They'll try to craft something else, anything to get out of, you know, facing the consequences.

[B]

Yeah, I think they tell the police what. What they think they want to hear. And then as they find out, the police know a little bit more than they realize, then they're changing it up.

[A]

Because they have to, because now the story doesn't make sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Carla said they met Sean at the dungeon. He was buying everyone drinks and invited them back to his room. Carla got into the tub with Sean. Out of nowhere, Worry hit Sean in the head with a champagne bottle. He held Sean underwater until he died. She denied participating in any way. Well, of course. What else is she gonna do? Now, she could be telling the truth, or she could just be trying to save her own ass, as many people do. But I think this does go back to your theory. Right? Sean's at the bar. He's having a good time, trying to have a good time. He may be flashing a little bit of money around by buying everyone drinks and like you said, offering to buy champagne to have this champagne bath. These people might have marked it as someone that they could get something out of.

[B]

I mean, it happens every day.

[A]

It does. Afterwards, Worry arranged transport to get them out of New Orleans. They went to Bradenton, where he grew up. However, never didn't know where he was. At one point, she claimed Worry was ordered to commit the murder by the Mafia. Okay, that's. That one's kind of out of left field.

[B]

The old mafia did it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, this guy's not a, A union leader, right? He's just there to set up displays for this conference. Why in the world would the Mafia have any interest in. In killing Shawn Johnson?

[B]

Yeah, it seems strange, right? I mean, maybe it was a union job, but is that a reason to.

[A]

But he's, but he's not the. He's not Jimmy Hoffa. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I don't think he's in a position of such importance that the Mafia would take notice. Carla was arrested and charged with murder. Detectives knew she was still holding back information. And part of that is probably her changing stories. Right. They just don't believe her. At this point, police were still looking for Ben and worry Crime Stoppers received the tip identifying Ben. Police were hunting Ben as 24 year old Benjamin Anthony, a restaurant cook in the French Quarter. Ben was arrested and charged with first degree murder. On August 1, 2003, Detective Winston Harbin visited Ben at his apartment. He could tell that something was weighing on Ben. He asked him if he wanted to talk and Ben said yes. And down at the police station, Ben agreed to tell everything he knew.

[B]

So he's going to cooperate.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you still have to wonder if he's going to be truthful or not, you know, But I do think there are people on both sides or all along the spectrum when it comes to what they're willing to say. Right. Some people are, are like Carla. They come up with an ever changing story to kind of fit the evidence that's thrown in front of them. And then you have people like Ben who maybe at some point realize that, hey, I'm not getting out of this. This thing's eating me alive. I'm going to come clean because I don't know what else to do. Ben said he left the dungeon with Sean, Worry and Carla. They walked to Jackson Square, where they met up with Deidre and her friends. Ben didn't know anything about a robbery scheme. He insisted he didn't hear Worry solicit help for the robbery. He thought it was just a champagne party. Shawn and Carla purchased 12 bottles of champagne, and everyone took a cab to the hotel. Now, like we said, right, I've never had a champagne bath. I know for a fact you've never had one. I'm assuming if you're buying 12 bottles of champagne, you're not buying Dom. You're buying the local liquor store, bottom of the barrel stuff because you're just swimming in it, Right. You're not even drinking it. Yeah.

[B]

I would think it'd be pointless to spending 100 bucks or 200 bucks per bottle or more. Right. You're going to get that 1299 special or maybe 6.99.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know how much the cheap stuff is. After a short time in the room, Ben, Sean and Carla began taking their clothes off and got in the Jacuzzi. Ben explained that he was the one who ripped the Bible pages out, dipped them in water, and threw them on the walls. But he had no explanation other than just sheer boredom.

[B]

I was just bored. Sold the Bible, started tearing the pages out. Yep.

[A]

So it didn't have anything to do with a ritual. It didn't have anything to do with even religion. He was just bored and felt like he would rip these pages out, dip them in water, and paste them all over the hotel.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know how you get so bored when you got your clothes off and there's a champagne party going on, but again, I've never been involved with one. So maybe at some point he got left out of the festivities.

[B]

And he's like, yeah, this is no fun for me. Now I'm just sitting here naked and afraid.

[A]

Sean and Carla started getting physical with each other. The next thing Ben saw was Worry moving towards the tub with a champagne bottle in his hands. Worry came up behind Sean and hit him in the head with the bottle. Ben got out of the tub and stood there in shock. Sean was still conscious, so Worry hit him with another bottle. Worry then forced Sean's head underwater and held him there. So the one thing I will say is, you know, Ben's story, it does kind of align with some of the things that police already knew, right? The hit from the bottle or even multiple hits is not what killed Sean. He was killed by drowning. Ben said he was trying to get his clothes on. As he watched the murder. He heard worry, shout something strange, but he was too panicked to recall his exact words. And like we just talked about, Right. Ben's statement matched the autopsy findings, and I think to police, that indicated that he was likely telling the truth.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, his story's aligning with the evidence.

[A]

Yeah. More so than Carla Wright, who's told a number of stories, some of which didn't fit the evidence or even believability. Ben also claimed Carla, who he knew is never was not troubled by the murder. He was asked what Carla was doing during the attack. Ben said she seemed happy. Like, happy and laughing about it. Once he stopped, I was, like, standing over there, just freaking out. They're like, don't worry. We've done this before. It's all right now.

[B]

We've done it before.

[A]

So, you know, if true, I mean, that. That's pretty scary. You know, this term rolling right to. To rob someone, it seems, is something that they had done, you know, before who knows how many times. But it also seems like potentially they've killed before.

[B]

Seems like it. Based on their response, Ben also explained.

[A]

That Carla left the doll behind by accident in their rush to get out of the room. There was no deeper meaning than that. So we go from, you know, these Bible pages ripped out, put up on the wall, this ragdoll left behind, all of it seeming like there's some greater meaning, some ritualistic meaning behind it, to. No, none of that. Ben was just bored. So he did that with the Bible pages, and the doll was left behind by accident.

[B]

You think if these individuals weren't found, how that case would have continued on? Right.

[A]

Especially with those two facts.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Kind of lingering out there as probably meaning something than more than what it actually turned out they did. Yeah, I think they would have. I'm sure police would have spent a lot of time and effort trying to decipher what those two things meant, when in reality, they didn't really mean anything at all. After they left the hotel, Ben let Worry and Carla hide in his apartment for a few hours. He was afraid he would be killed. Next, the couple watched a movie, ate some dinner, and slept for a while. The next morning, they got up, changed clothes, and left his apartment. According to him, he never saw them again.

[B]

But isn't that weird? They're just going on with their night.

[A]

Yeah. And I think Ben is making the argument that he only did this because he was afraid they would kill him. And that could be true. That could also be a way to minimize his involvement. But it could be very true.

[B]

I'm just thinking it had no impact on these guys.

[A]

Well, I mean, if you believe Ben, it certainly didn't to worry and Carla. But police still had a problem. They needed to figure out worry's true identity. Weight loss is hard and aside from people being judgmental, many people say it's just a matter of willpower. Which is not true. Your doctor may not know much about weight loss or GLP1 medications and if you manage to get weight loss medications, it will be expensive. Mochi Health is out to fix all that. They'll match you with a doctor who is an expert in weight loss. Someone who has access to state licensed pharmacies that provide weight loss medications at an affordable price and knows how to be empathetic. You have unlimited access to your doctor and unlimited visits with a nutritionist dietitian. And it works. On average, Mochi members lose 36 pounds in their first year. All told, over 100,000 Mochi members have lost over 4 million pounds. They have over 12,000 reviews on Trustpilot and a rating of excellent. It's so easy to get started. Go to joinmochi.com and take a two minute questionnaire to see if weight loss medications may be right for you. Get signed up, choose a doctor and schedule a telehealth appointment for a time and place that's convenient for you. You and your doctor will then craft a personalized weight loss plan and any medications would be delivered directly to your door. Just think about it. Three minutes from now you could be set with an appointment and on your way to a weight loss journey that works. Go to joinmochi.com that's J-O-I N M O C H-I.com well, the holidays have.

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[A]

A concerned citizen in Florida called The police and reported a home invasion robbery. And Ruskin. A man associated with the house was 24 year old Chris Lang. He was suspected of possibly robbing his mother. The caller knew that his name was spelled with a K, which helped narrow down the search. She even knew his birthplace and his mother's phone number. On August 1st, Chris was publicly named as a suspect. He had been wanted in Manatee County, Florida for over a year. In January 2002, Chris was convicted of burglarizing a church. He hadn't reported to his probation officer since September 11, 2002. He was also wanted for failing to appear in another burglary case.

[B]

So it doesn't sound like an upstanding guy.

[A]

Well, you know what probation officers don't like?

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

Is when you don't report in, which I think is in part how you got that ankle monitor.

[B]

They also hate when you mess with that and deactivate it.

[A]

Put it on the dog as you. As you leave the house.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Soon after, a woman called Deputy Waldron claiming she knew where Chris was. The informant's conscience forced them to turn Lane in When they read the account of the murder. According to Waldron, per the Bradenton Herald, they said he was a real nice guy and they were debating whether to turn him in. The guy said, I've got to do the right thing. Chris had told the informant he might eat at Denny's. On the night of August 1, police waited outside the restaurant and staked out the apartment where Chris was staying. And I think, you know, this answers a question that we often ask. You know, who else knows something, right. About what went down or who was involved? And at what point would they decide to turn someone in? Is it for money? When, let's say a reward gets large enough? In this case, it seems as though it's because of the person's conscience. They just felt like they had to do the right thing. And you would hope it would always be like that, but we know it. That's not how it works.

[B]

No, just in a perfect world, that's how it would go.

[A]

Waldron was on his way home after midnight on August 2nd when he decided to stop at Denny's one last time and saw a vehicle matching the informant's description. He ran the tag and it matched Chris's registration. Waldron called for backup and waited outside for 15 minutes while Chris finished eating. He was arrested as he walked out. In his post arrest interview, Chris blamed everything on Carla. He said it was her plan to rob Sean and her idea to kill Him. He drank three bottles of champagne at the hotel. The last thing he remembered was Carla, Shawn, and Ben in the hot tub. He drifted off on the couch. He woke up to Ben saying, we gotta go. Carla had beaten Sean over the head with a champagne bottle. All right, so first off, he is completely throwing Carla under the bus.

[B]

He is.

[A]

Now, to be fair, she threw him under the bus to save, you know, or try to save herself. He's doing the same thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He said that he drank three bottles of champagne.

[B]

It's a lot of champagne.

[A]

That's what I was thinking. It's a lot of bubbles, for sure.

[B]

A lot of indigestion.

[A]

But he's, you know, giving the story that, oh, he was so drunk, you know, he just kind of passed out. And by the time he woke up, everything had already happened and people were screaming, hey, we gotta go.

[B]

I will tell you the one time I saw my dad blottoed, shit faced. Yes. It's because he drank champagne to the point. I remember they had a couple cases there for some party with all their friends. And the next day, later in the day, and he was not. Not in a great mood when he woke up. Headache and all that kind of stuff. Typical hangover, Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

He went out to the barn and got a dolly. And I saw him not only taking the remainder of the champagne up to the corner of the driveway where the trash would pick it up, followed up by every other bottle of alcohol in the house boxed up. And he hauled it up there to the point that our neighbors came out and said, what are you doing with this?

[A]

This?

[B]

And my dad told him, and they said, can we take it? My dad said, I don't care who takes it. I want it out of here.

[A]

It was that bad that he decided, I'm not drinking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And it was a while before he started drinking and, you know, certain things, occasionally.

[A]

Carla's murder trial started on August 25, 2005. She testified that she was afraid of Chris and was unaware of his plans to rob and kill Sean and Ben. Anthony testified against Carla in exchange for a reduced sentence. He described Carla as giddy and excited.

[B]

During the murder, which seems like something a participant would do.

[A]

Yeah, it really gives off some kind of natural Born killers type vibe.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[A]

I mean, you're giddy and excited while someone is being killed. Carla was charged with second degree murder, but on August 27, 2005, the jury found her guilty of negligent homicide. Ben pleaded guilty to accessory after the fact. And, you know, in an interesting kind of side note. Carla's trial was the last criminal jury trial before Hurricane Katrina struck New Orleans. The hurricane delayed her sentencing.

[B]

I think it delayed a lot of things a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In New Orleans especially, the courthouse didn't open up until almost a year after the hurricane. A lot of evidence was lost due to flooding, which affected numerous cases.

[B]

I can't even imagine what that impact was.

[A]

No. Now, for her, she's already been found guilty, only her sentencing was delayed. But you think about people who hadn't gone to trial yet, what if, like, and I'm sure it did happen, critical evidence was washed away during this hurricane, they might have gotten away or, you know, the. The state might not have been able to make their case anymore.

[B]

I'm sure there was a handful like that.

[A]

Yeah, I'm sure it happened. CBS reported in October 2005 that prosecutors didn't know whether the champagne bottle used as the murder weapon was destroyed or buried by floodwaters. The hurricane also forced witnesses, jurors and attorneys to leave the state. Prosecution resumed 11 months later. Carla was sentenced to five years in prison, and Benjamin Anthony was sentenced to four years. And I thought that was a little bit strange. Right. Ben Anthony testified against Carla.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In exchange for reduced sentence, she's charged with second degree murder, but the jury only finds her guilty of negligent homicide. So she. She only got one year longer than Ben did.

[B]

It doesn't seem right, does it?

[A]

Not if she truly was this bigger participant than he was. If she was giddy, if she was excited. Deirdre cooperated with investigators, so she was never charged. On May 12, 2006, Chris Lane pleaded guilty to manslaughter and robbery to avoid a capital murder trial. On June 6, he received a 40 year sentence for manslaughter and five years for robbery. And I don't know. I don't know if that's all that tough of a decision to make. There's already been a couple of convictions in this case. Is it hard to believe that you're going to be found guilty? Especially when most likely some of these people are going to be testifying against you and you're facing capital murder?

[B]

Yeah, I think it was a smart deal to go ahead and just plead guilty.

[A]

Yeah. He still got a lengthy sentence, but it wasn't life in prison, and it certainly wasn't a death sentence. On March 1, 2013, prison guards found Chris Lane dead in his cell in an apparent suicide. He was 33 years old. So if you think about it, GIBBS Accepting a 40 year sentence. And he might not even have done the entire 40 years. But even if he had, he would have been in his 60s when he got out. Now, that's a pretty big chunk of your life. But you did kill someone. But he would have been out in time to at least have a life. On March 9, 2023, the Mobile Police Department received a call about people stealing a fire hydrant in front of a bank. Officers found the suspect vehicle and conducted a traffic stop. The fire hydrant was in the truck, along with a firearm and drugs. Police arrested 43 year old Keith Haley and 39 year old Carla Frock. Haley was charged with first degree theft of services and carrying a concealed weapon. Carla was charged with first degree theft of property, possession of a controlled substance and possession of drug paraphernalia. News outlets reported on Carla's connection to the murder.

[B]

They're still getting in trouble.

[A]

Yeah. Now it's many years after the fact, but my question is, who in the world is stealing a fire hydrant? What are you doing with this fire hydrant? Also, if you're going to do this, why do you have a firearm and drugs in the truck? None of it seems smart.

[B]

It doesn't.

[A]

In September of that year, Carla was charged with possession of a controlled substance and chemical endangerment of a child. And after her child was found in possession of drug paraphernalia at school.

[B]

Well, that's not good. That's a problem.

[A]

No, like you, you've got stuff out. You've got little kids, and what, you know, this kid is just picking your drug paraphernalia up, putting it in her backpack. I mean, you're not in mother of the year territory right here. I got to be honest.

[B]

Do you ever take any of your.

[A]

Mom or dad's drug paraphernalia? No, I. I don't believe I did. Also, my mom and dad were not into drugs, so I'm gonna say no to that one.

[B]

I was gonna say I was pretty sure you would say that they weren't, but, you know, just had a double check. That's a really nice bong you have. Their mom. I'm gonna take it to school with me.

[A]

But, you know, as we wrap this one up, Gibbs, I do wonder a lot about the involvement of Carla and Ben. It seems to me that, that Ben was being pretty truthful. There's no way to know that for sure.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

But at least he wasn't proven to be a liar. I think Carla was proven to have lied multiple times and changed her story.

[B]

Definitely feel like there's some conflicting information about her.

[A]

Yeah. It just seems like if what Ben Anthony said was true, Carla might have had quite a bit more involvement in this than what she was really held accountable for. I think there's the case can be made for that now. You know, the jury found her guilty of what they did. She did her time. She's gotten in trouble since then. I don't know what you make of that. I don't know what that has to do. But when it comes down to it, you know, this is, it's a very sad case. You have this very outgoing person right in Shawn Johnson. He's eager to have some fun, meet new people in a city he's never been to. He's friendly, he's open. And, you know, he had no idea that his fun night out would put him in the path of these kind of predators who ultimately saw him as a target.

[B]

I think he was like, gonna have me some fun. A little champagne bath, maybe a little something. Something happens and it's all good.

[A]

And I think the whole time he was a mark to these people. I think the question is how many of these people, right, who knew that he was going to be robbed and killed? Was it all of them or was it just Chris Lane who made that decision? Once they got there, maybe the, the whole group knew that they were going to rob him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But Chris decided to, to kill him. I, I don't know. We only know what people have said and what they have been convicted of. Yeah. And, and you know, this. The sins they served. But that's it for our episode on Sean Johnson. We got a voicemail. You want to check that out?

[B]

Let's hear it.

[D]

Hi, Mike and Gibby. My name is Tori. I'm a long time listener, first time caller. Team Gibby. Sorry, Mike, I just wanted to call because I was listening to your DC Arsonist episode today when I was in the car with my 94 year old grandfather and you guys sure said masturbate an awful lot. And it got super awkward. Even though he can't hear very well, I'm pretty sure he picked up on some of it. Made my 36 year old self blush like no other. Anyways, I just thought I'd share that little anecdote with you guys. Keep doing what you're doing. Love, love, love, love, love your podcast. And what's the tagline? Keep your own time taken. Talk to you guys later. Bye.

[A]

I'm sure grandpa knew what we were saying.

[B]

He completely understood about masturbation.

[A]

Now we did say it a lot, but it's. It was kind of integral to the story. I felt like we weren't saying it for no reason.

[B]

You said masturbation all the time in that story.

[A]

Well, the guy was doing that about these fires and, and all that. You had to talk about it.

[B]

Even said masturbation. After the podcast was done. I was like, why are you still talking about masturbation?

[A]

You're just trying to see how many times you can say it.

[B]

Masturbation.

[A]

Yeah. But we appreciate the. The voicemail very much.

[B]

That is cool.

[A]

She was listening with her 94 year old grandfather.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It reminds me of the time that my wife and I watched the movie Super Bad with Jonah Hill with her mom and dad.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And it got very awkward. There's some racy scenes in that movie. And I was. We were a lot younger today. I wouldn't, I wouldn't care. I've known him forever, but back then I hadn't known him as long. It was a little awkward during some of the. The sex scenes and some of the other stuff. But having said that, that's it for another episode of True Crime all the Time. So for Mikey, stay safe and keep your own time ticking.

[B]

Sa.