Podcast Summary: True Crime Bullsh**

Episode 0710 | “Undercurrent”

Host: Josh Hallmark (Studio BOTH/AND)
Date: December 12, 2025

Overview

In this episode, host Josh Hallmark continues the deep-dive into the undiscovered victims of serial killer Israel Keyes, focusing specifically on Keyes' murders in and around Washington state. The discussion centers on Keyes’ use of semantics to mislead investigators, ambiguities around his victim count, and the possibility that more pairs of victims—especially male/female couples—exist than officially believed. The episode also introduces the 2002 unsolved double homicide of Terry Palm and Angela Walsh and explores the broader significance of hydroelectric dams as body disposal sites in Keyes’ crimes.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Keyes’ Washington Victims: Questioning the Count and the Geography

Timestamp: 01:55 – 07:58

• Hallmark explains how Keyes misled the FBI using hyper-specific language; for example, being emphatic about “four Washington state victims,” which may exclude crimes in adjacent states like Idaho or Oregon.
• Quote:

  “When it comes to Israel Keyes' Washington Victims, I've never believed that there were only four.”
  (Josh Hallmark, 01:55)

• Keyes’ semantics (Washington “state” vs. “area” crimes) have likely resulted in the undercounting of his victims in law enforcement searches.
• Keyes disclosed:
  • Two unrelated victims killed and disposed with his boat.
  • A male-female couple killed together; woman killed first, man accidentally killed while trying to subdue.
  • At least one victim possibly from the eastern Washington jurisdiction (e.g., Ellensburg).
  • One supposed accidental death is likely related but chronologically problematic.

Problems With the Male-Female Couple Narrative

Timestamp: 07:58 – 12:53

• Despite extensive searches, no missing/murdered couple in Eastern Washington matches FBI descriptions or Keyes’ accounts.
• Hallmark details the confusion and differences between Keyes’ letter to his brothers and his FBI interviews:
  • Details such as pine needles, proximity to a car, highway sounds may not all refer to the same incident or victims.
  • There could have been multiple couples killed or separate incidents combined in memory or narrative.
• Quote:

  “We have not found a couple that matches the FBI’s narrative... There is no missing or murdered couple in eastern Washington... who matches the timeframe and description.”
  (Josh Hallmark, 06:45)

• Hallmark suggests large reporting gaps—especially involving marginalized victims and under-covered cases—hinder progress.

The Cases of Cammie & Eugene (Jean) and the Wilberger Connection

Timestamp: 12:53 – 15:30

• Hallmark revisits the suspected Keyes-linked disappearance of Cammie and Jean, pointing out their geographic and media overlap with Brooke Wilberger’s case.
• Discovery: Keyes may have found Brooke Wilberger’s case (whose mother is also named Kami) while searching for updates, leading to possible confusion or data cross-contamination in his notes or online activity.
• Ongoing issue: Many cases still don’t make it to national databases, and small details (like shared first names) can become significant in investigation.

The Unsolved Double Homicide of Terry Palm and Angela Walsh

Timestamp: 15:30 – 23:56

• Newly spotlighted couple: Terry and Angela were a Spokane pair who disappeared after a party in December 2002:
  • Both were later found in the Spokane River, several miles apart, months after their disappearance.
  • Details: Angela’s advanced decomposition suggests exposure, while Terry’s state indicates he was submerged for the entire period.
• Police theories included murder-suicide (eventually ruled out; both deaths confirmed as homicide).
• Their backgrounds included turbulent relationships and ties to meth use, complicating the investigation.

The Significance of Hydroelectric Dams in Keyes’ Modus Operandi

Timestamp: 35:48 – 41:22

• Informant “Nathan”, a former army friend of Keyes, shares that Keyes once speculated that a missing person’s remains would turn up at a hydroelectric dam—a common site for Keyes, as later research shows.

• Keyes saw dams as optimal body disposal sites, leveraging powerful currents and dangerous waters.

• This pattern emerges in several cases across Keyes’ career, suggesting a broader, more systematic approach to body disposal.

• Quote:

  “It’s a place where a body could be submerged for a very long time.”
  (Nathan (via Hallmark), 36:15)

Keyes’ Reflections on Crime Scene Staging and Detection

Timestamp: 29:34 – 33:09

• Keyes describes his awareness of how accidental deaths are perceived versus actual murders.
• He acknowledges the psychological benefit of having murders ruled accidental and admits that in at least one case, he tried to stage it as an accident—mirroring aspects of Terry Palm’s presumed accidental demise by a dam.
• Quote:

  “I always assumed that if a body was found, ... somebody was going to be after me for it... Hard to keep track after a while.”
  (Israel Keyes, 29:34)

• Quote:

  “If it had been found right away, it probably wouldn’t have been thought to be an accident anymore.”
  (Israel Keyes, 32:50)

Overlap and Gaps in the Investigation

Timestamp: 33:09 – 35:48

• Hallmark points out the synergy between the Keyes-Tammy neighbor’s disappearance and the Palm-Walsh case, both involving suspicious missing persons and remains found by dams with accidental or ambiguous rulings.
• Emphasizes the need to revisit unsolved “accidental” deaths near hydroelectric sites and to question accepted case boundaries.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We cannot assume [Washington state crimes and Washington area crimes] mean the same thing. This is true crime bullshit.”
  (Josh Hallmark, 06:20)

• “As you well know by now, we have not found a couple that matches the FBI’s narrative...”
  (Josh Hallmark, 06:45)

• “No matter how long I’ve been doing this, it never ceases to surprise me when we discover missing or murdered people who never made it onto NAMUS or the Charlie Project or any other database.”
  (Josh Hallmark, 13:55)

• “Hydroelectric dam would be an easy option for you... it’s a place where a body could be submerged for a very long time.”
  (Josh Hallmark paraphrasing Keyes/Nathan, 40:04, 36:15)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Dissecting Keyes’ Semantics: 01:55 – 07:58
• Issues with FBI’s Couple Narrative/Evidence Gaps: 07:58 – 12:53
• Cammie, Jean & Wilberger Overlap: 12:53 – 15:30
• The Palm-Walsh Double Homicide: 15:30 – 23:56, 23:56 – 29:34 (body recovery specifics, hydroelectric dam locations)
• Keyes Reflects on Staging Accidents: 29:34 – 33:09
• Nathan’s Account/Hydroelectric Dams Pattern: 35:48 – 41:22

Takeaways for Listeners

• Israel Keyes’ specificity with language and deliberate word choices created investigative blind spots for law enforcement; geographic and victim definitions are crucial.
• There may be multiple unknown or misclassified victims, particularly among male/female pairs in Washington and adjacent states.
• Hydroelectric dams are a recurring and deliberate element in Keyes’ disposal methods, offering opportunities for further investigation into cold or misclassified accidental cases.
• Unreported and under-reported cases, especially involving marginalized groups, mean the true scale of Keyes’ violence is potentially much greater than officially recognized.
• New sources—like accounts from Keyes’ army friends—may offer crucial details in re-examining both his methods and victim selection.

Tone and Style

• The episode maintains Hallmark’s signature investigatory thoroughness, skepticism toward official narratives, and nuanced empathy for victims.
• After years of work, Hallmark remains vigilant to new evidence and ever-evolving questions, maintaining a sense of urgency and seriousness throughout.

A must-listen for true crime devotees invested in the complexity and evolving landscape of Israel Keyes’ crimes and their ongoing investigation.