Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (7:25)

About at one point a bunch of his early victims didn't get moved. So, you know, the initial contact with them was also the crime scene with them. So I, I know later that kind of changes, like with the couriers and stuff. But early on I know he shared that he wasn't moving them. You know, where he found them is where the crime scene ended up being.

Josh Hallmark (7:58)

Over the next few episodes, we'll be exploring whether there could be multiple male female couples killed in and around Washington State between 1999, when Keyes was first stationed at Fort Lewis, in the spring of 2007, when Keyes moved to Alaska. Because while we cannot find a couple who matches all of the descriptions we have of the male female couple, we can find multiple couples who match either the description in the letter or the details. Keyes told the FBI in the interrogations. So considering these as separate incidents, here's what we know. According to Keyes statements to the FBI about the Washington male female couple. They were killed in Washington state. The woman was killed first. The man was accidentally killed by a shovel. They were buried in a valley. According to Keyes letter to his brothers that was confiscated from his jail cell. The couple were killed in an area with pine needles on the ground. The woman was killed near her car. Keyes could hear cars below on the highway. Below, as in, not in a valley. When considering these as separate events or as a single event with misremembered or misstated details, we can come up with five couples who could match one or both sets of information. And it's not far fetched to believe that Keyes would have killed multiple male female couples in this time period. We've already gone over ad nauseam the number of times Keyes talks about stalking, fantasizing about and looking for couples to kill. So today we're going to discuss just two of those potential couples. Because the second case, it took us on an unexpected turn that not only connected to a separate Keys murder victim, but coincided with some other research we were doing and a never before heard story about Keyes from one of his friends.

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Bowen Yang (10:46)

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Josh Hallmark (12:53)

We can't discuss couples without discussing Cammie and Eugene, who have long been on my radar as the or at least a male female couple potentially abducted by Keyes. And while we look at the possibility of there being other or different victims in terms of making a case for missing or murdered couples Cammie and Jean are still the most compelling to me, and while I have no major updates in their case, I did notice another small detail that's worth mentioning, and it came to me in the strangest and perhaps most kismet way. My partner is not huge into true crime. Other than the occasional Dateline episode, he knows very little about Israel Keyes. In fact, he never made it past season one, episode four of this podcast. It was too much for him. Too dark, too sad. And I say all this because that's what made it so bizarre to come home over the weekend to find him watching a Dateline episode on Brook Week. Wilburger from the Namus 45 He of course, had no idea who Brooke Wilburger was and probably doesn't know what the Namus 45 is, so for him it was just another episode of Dateline. As you may recall, Gene and Cammy were from a town not far from where Brooke Wilburger was abducted, and it was the same newspaper that covered all three of their disappearances. First Cammie and Jean, and then several years later, Brooke. And so we posited that Brooke most likely ended up on Keys computer when he was searching that newspaper for updates on Cammie and Jean. Well, as I stood there watching Dateline over my partner's shoulder, something hit me like a ton of bricks. Brooke's mom is named Kami. Brooke's case was more recent and received much more media coverage because of the nature of both her disappearance and the eventual uncovering of her murder, and the fact that local law enforcement took her disappearance much more seriously than Kami's and Jean's. So had Keyes done a search in 2011 for some version of missing Oregon, Kami Brooke Wilburger's case would have come up immediately because Kami Wilburger was the family spokesperson in her daughter's media coverage, and her name is in just about every single article about Brooke's disappearance. No matter how long I've been doing this, it never ceases to surprise me when we discover missing or murdered people who never made it onto NAMUS or the Charlie Project or any other database with unsolved homicides. So it was all the more surprising when we discovered the 2002 double homicide of Terry Palm and Angela Walsh, a Spokane, Washington couple who disappeared the morning after a birthday party for Angela at the Boulevard Motel in Spokane. Terry and Angela had been together for seven years when they were reported missing on December 15th of 2002, just five days after they were last seen after a night of partying with friends at the Boulevard motel. Terry was 40 years old, 5 foot 8 and weighed 145 pounds. Angela was 34 years old, 5 foot 4 and weighed just 110 pounds. Angela was raised Mormon, but by all accounts was no longer practicing at the time of her disappearance. She had a 14 year old daughter from a previous relationship. Like Angela, Terry was born and raised in Spokane and the couple were in the midst of a rough patch. They had been hanging out with meth users and were allegedly both using and selling meth. And just two weeks before their deaths, the pair had moved into Angela's mother's and stepdad's house because someone had reportedly broken into their apartment and tried to kill Angela. And since that break in, and until the night before they disappeared, they didn't give their new address to anyone. No one knew where they were living or how to find them. On the night of the party, Terri and Angela had their friend April drive them to the Boulevard Motel. In fact, it was April who would be the last known person to actually see the couple alive. She would later tell police that the morning after the party, she saw Terry and Angela walking north from the motel along the Spokane river through People's Park, a hiking area on a large peninsula surrounded by Lataw Creek, Hangman Creek and the Spokane River. Directly north of People's park is the Riverside Memorial Cemetery, and the park is connected by a footbridge to the Centennial Trail park to the east over the Spokane River. All three are part of the Greater Riverside State Park, a massive state park that runs from downtown Spokane to the Spokane reservation almost 20 miles away. It's unclear where the couple were headed that morning because they were living just two miles directly east of the motel, just a couple blocks off of Sunset Boulevard. At around the same time that April saw Terry and Angela walking through the park, Angela's mother received a phone call from Angela, reportedly at 7:40am stating that she needed her to drop her daughter off at school because she didn't have a ride and wouldn't make it in time. And after that call, Angela and Terri were never heard from again. For three months, local law enforcement and the community searched for the couple. Local media covered the cases frequently. Search and Rescue spent days searching the Spokane river near where they were last seen and the surrounding areas with no luck. Polygraphs were performed on the partygoers and both missing persons families. There were no strong leads. And despite the previous attempt on Angela's life, the most reported theory was that the couple fell into the river. Our FOIA for their cases was denied based on it still being an open and active investigation. So it's unclear what exactly the police were thinking behind closed doors, but we do know that all of their families as well as April passed their polygraph on March 15th of 2003, three months after the couple disappeared, a woman walking her dog through Riverside State park, more than seven miles from where the couple was last seen, found Angela's body floating in the Spokane river about one mile south of Seven Mile Bridge. Her death was ruled a homicide, but Terry was nowhere to be found. Police wondered, had Terry killed his girlfriend and then disappeared? But six months later, on September 9, kayakers found Terry's body in the Spokane river just south of the Nine Mile Dam and about five miles north from where Angela's body was found. Reports indicated that Terry's body had likely been underwater for the entire nine months that he was missing. At first, police believed it was possible that Terry and Angela died by murder suicide, that Terry killed Angela and then later himself. That is, until Terry's death was also ruled a homicide. Autopsies would indicate that both Angela and Terry died by violent homicide. Specifics have never been made public, but violent homicide can refer to stabbing, beating or strangulation. Now, at first glance, it would seem most likely that whomever tried to kill Angela two weeks prior to her death was likely the same person to eventually kill her and Terry. Unfortunately, we don't know who that person was, let alone if Angela was even able to identify them. But if rumors are to be believed, this attempted murder was in response to the couple selling bad meth. However, police didn't seem to have tunnel vision. They looked into all angles and there are some pretty big keys factors at play here, including one you don't even know about yet.

Commercial Announcer (22:04)

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Bowen Yang (22:31)

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Josh Hallmark (23:30)

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Bowen Yang (23:35)

Go team.

Josh Hallmark (23:36)

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Musical Performer (23:45)

Paul.

Josh Hallmark (23:56)

Terry Palm and Angela Walsh disappeared on December 10th of 2002, and at the time, Keyes had just returned from a trip to Maine for his father's memorial service. Unfortunately, we don't have the exact dates that Keyes was in Maine. We only know that the service itself was on November 25th and that his father died on the 13th. We also know that Keyes took extended bereavement leave from work and traveled to Eastern Washington at some point during this time following John Jeffreys memorial service. We can't definitively place keyes anywhere until August 28th of 2003, although we know at this time he was working Monday through Friday for the tribe and only occasionally taking a long weekend off to troll or commit crimes. Spokane is 68 miles, or about a 90 minute drive equidistantly from both Colville and Hunters. It's the closest major city and airport to both towns. It's a city that Keyes knew well, had been to quite often, and allegedly even done construction work in when it comes to Angela and Terry. Interestingly, Angela's body was found floating near the Wilbur Trailhead of the Centennial Trail in Riverside State park, not far from a park toilet and boat ramp. And I'm told that while both Angela and Terry were found downstream from where they were last seen, again 7 and 12 miles downstream respectively, the Spokane river moves at a glacial pace, particularly in winter when it barely moves at all. And more importantly, between where they were last seen and where they were found is the Riverside State park bowl and Pitcher, a naturally formed pool in the river located between two extremely shallow rock banks, inches deep at max. For two bodies to pass through this area, they would have to pass over two rock beds separated by a bowl with a circular flow pattern, and the area is Incredibly trafficked because there's a campground, suspension bridge and overlook there. According to friend of the show Michael Beers, who was a former search and rescuer, it would be nearly impossible for one of them to pass through this bowl and pitcher, let alone both. So it's highly likely, if not certain, that Angela and Terry went into the Spokane somewhere north of the Boland pitcher. And that brings me to the very distinct differences in Angela's and Terry's recoveries. Angela's body was found three months after they went missing. She was floating in the river. It's unclear whether she was clothed or not, but her state of decomposition, which was described as advanced, made it clear she had likely not been submerged or perhaps even in the river for the three months that she was missing. Her body had been exposed to the elements. Whereas Terry was found nine months after they went missing. And his decomposition indicated that he had been completely submerged for the entirety of his disappearance. So that and the significant distance between the two bodies suggest that they were either disposed in different areas and or in different ways. Additionally, Terry's body was found just south of the Nine Mile Dam, a hydroelectric dam located in the northeast corner of Riverside State Park. And that is where someone named Nathan comes into play. Now, I'm going to give you a little look behind the scenes because I obtained what I consider to be very critical information from someone who served in the army with Keyes and considered himself one of Keyes closest friends at that time. In fact, when Keyes told the FBI who from the army to interview, he named Nathan third only after his squad leader and Matthew. Nathan and I have exchanged emails back and forth and have been trying to make a zoom interview happen for weeks now. This is something that happens a lot. People want to share and want to interview, but then back out or go quiet or reschedule because they realize how overwhelming dredging up this specific past can be or what it means to become a spokesperson or forever part of this type of narrative, to be publicly linked to a serial killer, and part of his story forever. Nathan and I both appeared on an upcoming podcast about Keyes produced by ABC News. And after our interviews, they reached out to tell me that Nathan had some very interesting things to say and that I should get in touch with him immediately. And so I did. Because some of the information Nathan has shared is pertinent to this case and even more so to another. I'm going to share that with you now while still remaining hopeful that we can get on Zoom at some point soon. But before we get to Nathan, we have to discuss a woman he's never even met, Tammy.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (29:34)

So on one instance where you killed somebody, it appeared and news as if it were an accident. So that's got to be kind of empowering. Well, right. I never took that for granted, though, because I knew. I've known for a long time because of the things that I've done that have been in the news. I've known that, like what you read that happened and what I know that actually happened. Sometimes it's almost not even recognizable, really. So I never took it for granted. I always assumed that if a body was found that they were. Somebody was going to be after me for it. I was always prepared for that, and I always had. I always thought I had alibis and stuff like that was always in the back of my mind. Kind of hard to keep track of after a while. But you anticipated if they found the body. Here's what my story's gonna be, right? Were there any close calls where they found a body and you were prepared, kind of prepared for that? Well, like I say, I don't know if it was a close call. I don't know. I know that. I know that what was made public, it never seemed like it was close to me. The body recovered and you were worried they were going to come and ask questions about it?

Josh Hallmark (31:07)

Yeah.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (31:10)

Was that only one time?

Josh Hallmark (31:17)

Yeah.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (31:21)

Did you consider that a mistake on your part, somehow, that the body was recovered? Well, I don't.

Josh Hallmark (31:29)

Back then, yeah.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (31:36)

Yeah, it was a mistake.

Josh Hallmark (31:41)

What happened?

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (31:41)

Were you rushed? Did you not do something the way you planned? No, I was. It was kind of the same situation as. The couriers. I just wasn't in a position to get rid of it right away.

Josh Hallmark (32:07)

And.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (32:09)

So I decided to try and make it look. I mean, it was already going to be assumed that it was an accident of some sort.

Musical Performer (32:19)

And.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (32:21)

My concern was that the body would be found before it had decomposed enough.

Musical Performer (32:38)

But.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (32:40)

How long ago was that? That was a while ago. But the body. So wait, I don't get.

Josh Hallmark (32:49)

I don't get that.

Israel Keyes (Interviewee) (32:50)

Your concern was the body wouldn't have been decomposed enough. That makes it sound like he went back, or. No, I'm just saying if it had been found right away, it probably wouldn't have been thought to be an accident anymore.

Josh Hallmark (33:09)

As I'm sure you'll recall, in a January 9, 2013 interview, Tammy told the FBI that shortly after she and Keys began dating, her neighbor's husband went missing while on a hike. That man's remains were later found and his death was eventually ruled accidental. But Tammy told the FBI that Israel was gone in the entire day and night that this neighbor's husband went missing, something Tammy later thought was unusual. Now we don't know the man's identity as it's redacted in the FBI files, and we don't think nor have any reason to believe that this man was or could be Terry Palm. But we do think this man could be the death ruled accidental that Keyes discussed with the FBI. And that is where Nathan and Terry Palm come in.

Commercial Announcer (34:22)

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Bowen Yang (34:49)

Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too, and your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. And all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make the season about joy, not Identity theft. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iHEART or go to lifelock.com iHEART for 40% off terms apply.

Josh Hallmark (35:48)

Most people would rather remove a nest of irate hornets than search for auto and home insurance. That's why the zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare today@thezebra.com I think I'll wait inside. Nathan and Keyes were stationed together at Fort Lewis and in Egypt, and Nathan's interview with the FBI is one of the more robust interviews, which we'll dig deeper into in a future episode. But one thing that didn't come up in that FBI interview, but did come up in his interview with ABC was a conversation that he had with Keys. Shortly after Keys and Tammy started dating. Nathan said that in late 2000 or early 2001, Keys told him an acquaintance of Tammy's went missing, that Keys and Tammy had participated in several searches for this missing man and that Keyes talked about his disappearance quite often. And at one point, Keyes told Nathan that he suspected that this missing man's remains would be found in a hydroelectric dam because it's a place where a body could be submerged for a prolonged period of time. Nathan went on to say that he recalled that this man was eventually found near a hydroelectric dam and that his death was ruled accidental. We believe we are very close to identifying this man. And while we don't think he is connected to Terry Palm, Keys's suspicions surrounding his death certainly does. Terry Palm was found very near a hydroelectric dam and had been submerged in in the Spokane river for close to nine months. And this was only about two years after Tammy's neighbor went missing. So at first we thought this was a potential link between Keyes and Terry Palm and Angela Walsh, but also a great lead in uncovering Tammy's neighbor. But then we zoomed out a little and started looking into hydroelectric dams. And we discovered a lot. For one, hydroelectric dams have quietly been with us throughout this entire investigation. There's one on the Racket river in Tupper Lake. There's one in the Racket river on Blake Falls Reservoir. There's one on the Lower Neches where Mark Oldberry was camping. There's one on Eklutna Lake where Keyes talked about trolling for victims. There's one on Lake Pend Oreille and Kootenay. There's one on Flaming Gorge Reservoir near Green River. And the list, believe it or not, just goes on and on. And then we started looking into why this would be a good place to dispose of a body. According to PacificCorps.com's resources on hydroelectric dams and safety areas above the dam flow can pull swimmers in and drag them below the water with such force that they cannot escape. Air trapped in those areas reduces buoyancy to a point where even swimmers wearing flotation devices can be sucked below the surface due to intense pressure. It's incredibly dangerous to swim below the surface above the dam flow, meaning it would be dangerous to search this area for a body below the dam. Water plunging over the spillway creates a violent, recirculating current that traps objects and people below the surface, making escape nearly impossible. So if you were Israel Keys and not in a shed in your own driveway with all the tools you'd need to submerge a body in water.

Musical Performer (40:04)

A.

Josh Hallmark (40:04)

Hydroelectric dam would be an easy option for you. And like Keyes told Nathan. It's a place where a body could be submerged for a very long time.

Musical Performer (40:25)

The wind has turned a fish pose the cities are ceased the cars are drowning underneath your feet. The children are swimming from the top of the trees Crowds of umbrellas are standing mid believe. O Mary kept sorrowing holding on to her TV Even if the water is rising past the knees. Here comes the river the coming on.

Josh Hallmark (41:22)

Strong.

Musical Performer (41:25)

But you can't keep it above these trouble waters. Here comes the river over the flames sometimes you gotta burn to keep us.

Commercial Announcer (41:46)

Stuck.

Josh Hallmark (41:48)

This episode was written, researched, edited and produced by josh hallmark, with additional research by kathleen s. And jordan taylor. Sources include namus, the charlie project, pacificcore.com, lowimpacthydro.org, damsafety.org, the washington state digital archives and the spokesman review. This episode was made possible by the following patreon producers amy basil, kendall c. Heather horton, whedon, sherry d. Kristin hoffman, dale axton, stephanie taylor, lydia rodarte, quayle, drew vipond, amelia hancock, christina sisson, nicole and dennis henry, gillian natale, lana holliday, rural juror Tuesday woodworth, zack ignatowitz, warren kathleen s. Annette l. Casey jensen richardson sc benjamin chopa, fong, trista, nicole, ash fish, becky c. Pink, jen j. Cori d. Robyn, carol jordan m. Kate luzier, john comrie, kathy nation, carrie jordan t. Bethany, lauren ferry, emily payne, tori myers, sabrina abbott, megan idman, megan daigle, ashley coupland, michael randall, duwayne c. Jen, justin runyon and trixie. Thank you to true crime bullshit's newest patreon supporter, lindsey w. To support the investigation, go to patreon.comstudiobothand this episode included music by serro wythe, sergei cheremisinov, william hellfire and radical face, with featured music by patrick watson.

Musical Performer (43:20)

Nobody told you it was gonna be this hard Something's been building behind your eyes you lost your whole lonely.

Josh Hallmark (43:41)

Losing.

Musical Performer (43:42)

Control There ain't any words in this world that's going to kill this. Sometimes it's going to fall down on your shoulders you're going to start the road. Here comes the river coming us through you can't keep your head above trouble waters. The cloud river over the flames Sometimes you gotta keep away. Sometimes. You got to just. Sam.

Josh Hallmark (45:36)

This message comes from the International rescue committee. The IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years. The International Rescue Committee helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts in places like Gaza and Ukraine and responding within 72 hours of crisis. Donate today by visiting Rescue.orgRebuild.

Bowen Yang (46:00)

That'S Rescue.orgRebuild to learn more and donate today. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But identity thieves have lists, too, and your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with LifeLock LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Make this season about joy, not Identity theft. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock.com iHeart terms apply.

Josh Hallmark (46:35)

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