0711 | Infrastructure

Summary

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True Crime Bullsh**

Podcast: True Crime Bullsh**
Host: Josh Hallmark (Studio BOTH/AND)
Episode: 0711 | Infrastructure
Date: January 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Josh Hallmark and his investigative team, with particular input from researcher Kathy Nation, dive deep into the theory that serial killer Israel Keyes organized his kill kits and possible victim sites using infrastructure landmarks—specifically, electrical substations, phone lines, and associated grid maps. The discussion explores how Keyes may have relied on these fixed features to recall or rediscover hidden caches, supported by both field research and data uncovered from FOIA files and mapping sites. The episode also draws parallels to military caching techniques and analyzes specific locations where this method seems evident.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Infrastructure Theory

• During a team trip (Trova Trip) in the Andes, Kathy Nation shared her research on infrastructure maps as a method Keyes may have used to stash and recover kill kits and, possibly, dispose of victims ([02:42]).
  • Kathy was struck by the correlation between grid map numbers in Keyes's files and locations of substations.
  • She hypothesized that Keyes picked spots near substations for ease of landmarking and recollection.

2. The Keyes Grid Maps: Substations, Numbers & Landmarks

• Grid Map Origins: The famous Keyes “grid map” from LaPlace, Louisiana, showed hand-marked numbers and gridlines. Originally believed to be unique, more maps were found through recent FOIA requests ([04:28]).
• Interpretation of Map Points: Kathy posits that numbers (e.g., "2", "35", "47") coincide with infrastructure—such as substations or power plants—and associated locations like boat ramps or cemeteries ([05:13], [06:25]).
  • Quote:
    “What if all those number twos are electrical substations? And then he’s looking for substations near like a boat ramp or a cemetery, because then he knows he can follow the phone lines from that area and put the cache under a phone line.” — Kathy Nation ([05:13])

3. Field Testing: Known and Suspected Cache Locations

• Blake Falls Reservoir

  • Kathy demonstrates how the cache location is directly adjacent to a hydro dam, substation, boat ramp, and at a defining phone line bend ([09:04]).
    • “If I was Israel Keyes…and I was like, where did I put that cash in the middle of the Adirondacks? This would be really a really easy way to remember.” — Kathy Nation ([09:29])

• Racket River (Tupper Lake)

  • Team notes substations on both sides, phone lines following the water, and the presence of similar secondary features (vault toilets, wildlife sanctuary) ([10:25], [10:45]).

• Stephenville and Laplace

  • Every coordinates-based investigation coincided with the presence of a substation ([17:16]).

4. Mapping Tools and Digital Footprints

• OpenStreetMaps & Layering Features
  • Discussion of how Keyes had OpenStreetMaps accounts linked to his emails ([15:14]).
  • OpenStreetMaps allows users to overlay layers (cemeteries, substations, etc.), perhaps explaining composite number annotations on Keyes’ maps ([15:40]).
    • Quote:
      "So OpenStreetMaps, he could overlay different layers...and then you could see it. So like the 35 and the 47 and stuff. It might have been where it’s like all these number twos are substations but then like the 35, that could mean there’s also a cemetery and a boat ramp there." — Kathy Nation ([15:40])

5. Expanding the Theory: Intersections of Family, Geography, and Opportunity

• Kathy and her sister independently zeroed in on the exact same spots in Texas (Nacogdoches) and Vermont, guided by combining map markings, infrastructure, and Keyes’ statements about travel paths and “missing miles” ([17:27]–[19:44]).
  • In Nacogdoches, a substation, boat ramp, and power line create a direct line to spots significant in the Tidwell case ([19:45]).
  • In Vermont, the team's focus shifts from a public sandbar to a quieter spot: a substation with phone lines near the Lemoy River fishing ramp, explaining unusual mileage recorded on the Courier’s car ([21:19]–[26:35]).
    • Quote:
      “I was driving around. Well, first of all, I was fishing.” (As recounted from Keyes's words by Michelle Tooker, reinforcing Keyes’s use of plausible alibis for time spent near potential sites) ([22:28])

6. Parallel to Army Caching Techniques

• Jordan Taylor, with Army experience, affirms that using fixed landmarks (like substations or power lines), counting paces, and landmark triangulation are consistent with military cache practices ([30:15]).
  • Quote:
    “If you were using the substations and or the telephone lines as a landmark, you would probably have exactly how far away from that spot he would be…I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if he knew from his landmark exactly how far away everything was.” — Jordan Taylor ([30:15])
• Josh references the US Army Special Forces Caching Techniques Guide to highlight how military-style caching closely follows the patterns found in Keyes's activities ([31:38]).

7. Testing the Theory: Further Locations and Potential Leads

• Flaming Gorge Reservoir: Kathy identifies likely cache sites using the substation-boat ramp-phone line formula; direct relevance to the Stephen Willard Anderson case ([38:07]–[39:27]).
• Lake Perris, California: Site of a credible Keyes sighting. Again, a power line runs behind Bernasconi Beach, with a prominent rock formation nearby. Former FBI agent Bobby Chacon independently points to this as the most likely cache spot ([40:26]).
  • Quote:
    “Chacon pointed to that specific crop of rocks and said that right there is where Keyes would hide a kill kit.” — Josh Hallmark ([40:26])

8. Why Substations & Phone Lines?

• Substations and phone lines are semi-permanent, highly visible but rarely visited by the public, and not easily redeveloped—making them ideal for someone who needs reference points that won't disappear ([42:29]).
  • Quote:
    “There has to be some simplicity to all this because you remembered it all so effortlessly.” — Josh Hallmark ([41:25])
  • “They’re very permanent structures, so they’re not going to be going anywhere.” — Jordan Taylor ([42:29])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kathy Nation:

  • “What if all those number twos are electrical substations?” ([05:13])
  • “I like that Kathy’s on top of her... unlike the FBI, she would bring a shovel.” ([17:02])
  • “It narrows down the search field if it’s definitely going to be tied to phone lines and stuff. I mean, he had to have some kind of method.” ([41:03])

• Jordan Taylor:

  • “If you were using the substations and/or the telephone lines as a landmark, you would probably have exactly how far away from that spot he would be.” ([30:15])
  • “They’re very permanent structure, so they’re not going to be going anywhere.” ([42:29])

• Josh Hallmark:

  • “There has to be some simplicity to all this because you remembered it all so effortlessly.” ([41:25])
  • "Chacon pointed to that specific crop of rocks and said that that right there is where Keyes would hide a kill kit." ([40:26])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introducing Infrastructure Maps/Theory Introduced: [02:42]–[06:25]
• LaPlace/Blake Falls Reservoir Map Analysis: [08:02]–[09:42]
• Substations, Phone Lines & Map Layering: [13:13]–[16:55]
• Texas & Vermont Parallel Discoveries: [17:27]–[21:53]
• Military Caching Techniques and Their Parallels: [30:10]–[35:55]
• Flaming Gorge & SoCal Case Application: [38:07]–[41:13]
• Reflection: The Search for Simplicity and Permanence: [41:25]–[42:43]

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Final Thoughts

The episode advances a compelling, evidence-supported theory: Israel Keyes used infrastructure—substations, phone lines, power plants—as his private network of navigation markers, efficiently enabling him to hide, recall, and recover kill kits (and potentially victims) across the country. By intimately understanding these features and combining them with knowledge gleaned from mapping software and military field craft, Keyes outpaced law enforcement’s search efforts for years. The team's ongoing work in parsing Keyes's maps, field visits, and data-mining provides tantalizing leads for future investigation—and a potential pathway to uncovering more answers.

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Contributors this Episode:
Josh Hallmark (host/reporting), Kathy Nation (research/theory guest), Jordan Taylor, Michelle Tooker, Shayna Walensky

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For more maps and ongoing research, follow True Crime Bullsh* on social media. Support the investigation on Patreon.*

Transcript

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[Kathy Nation]

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[Josh Hallmark]

Wherever you dine four times Membership rewards points at restaurants worldwide are piling up. Learn [e-mail] Explore Gold terms and Points Cap Apply. This is Studio both and production. Hey everyone. In this episode we'll be discussing multiple maps, specifically infrastructure maps, and those will be available on Facebook and Instagram on Tuesday morning. If you'd like to use them to follow along, this is the easiest one.

[Michelle Tooker]

We'Re always going to find. Yeah, probably even with your help.

[Kathy Nation]

Huh?

[Michelle Tooker]

You're really close.

[Kathy Nation]

I think you had said like a.

[Michelle Tooker]

Quarter mile past the parking lot ended.

[Kathy Nation]

Up being about a half mile, but.

[Josh Hallmark]

Beyond that it was.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah. Did you.

[Michelle Tooker]

Was there something like that in the road or how did you know where in the woods? It was just because of the berm or was there like telephone poles or. No, just landmarks, trees, driveways, stuff like that. I actually saw that flat shovel would have sucked to actually dig it a hole. So there's that dish. I bet he was just gonna fill it in. Yeah, it was already dug. There's really only room for one person in the house.

[Josh Hallmark]

Back In March of 2025, I was on a six hour bus ride through the Andes from Santiago to Mendoza. It was our first Trova trip and one of the attendees, Kathy Nation had, was sharing with me some very extensive research she had done on the Keyes case, specifically around infrastructure maps this was just a few weeks before I'd find out about Nathan and his story surrounding Keyes, Tammy's missing neighbor, and the hydroelectric dam. Kathy's theory was one of the most cogent, logical theories I'd heard about how Keyes may have cached and later refound his kill kits and potentially even victims. So in June, I had Kathy meet with me and most of the team to share her research, not knowing at the time how important and impactful it would eventually become. This is true crime bullshit. The serialized investigation Into Israel Keyes Season 7 Episode 11 Infrastructure Kathy, do you want to share with the group what you shared with me regarding substations?

[Kathy Nation]

Sure. So I've looked at this infrastructure map a few times when I was trying to figure things out with keys and the telephone pole, the, like, telephone lines that some of the stuff is under that Josh has brought up since, like, day one. And I can never make any sense of it. But then this one time, I started to look around laplace, and all of a sudden, to me, it looked a lot like the twos on the grid map.

[Josh Hallmark]

As a reminder, the grid map is a map recovered from keyes of the LaPlace area of Louisiana, which is gridlined and numerated. Agent Halla told me it was the only map they had that had Keyes writing on it. And through our most recent foia, we determined that's not true. We now have other maps with Keyes as writing. But back to the grid map. Agent Halla showed Joshua and Dakota this when they met with him in person last year. Following their meeting, Joshua hastily did a mock up as best he could remember. So, while not a perfect map, it's a great demonstration of how Keyes used grid maps and all the numbers that he was using on them, which we'll get into in just a minute.

[Kathy Nation]

Like the substations. Do you see all these little dots?

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

Now, the grid map that the SSITP guys released is obviously totally inaccurate. That's guesses of where all these number twos are at. But just if you, like, generalize it and you think, like, what are all these number twos on it? I don't know. This could be totally nothing. But anyway, that's what I saw. I was like, wait a minute. What if all those number twos are our electrical substations? And then he's looking for substations near, like, a boat ramp or a cemetery, because then he knows he can follow the phone lines from that area and put the cash under a phone line. And so what I did After I saw this was, I was like, oh my God. That's the first thing I've come across that looks at all like the grid map. I was looking up fishing maps. I was looking up maps of like, you know, cemeteries and stuff, and just nothing looks similar to it. But also I noticed that the big numbers on the grid map, like the 47 and the 35, are kind of like in the same spots where these big power plants are on the infrastructure map. See what I'm saying?

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

Not that. That I kind of think that's not even relevant. I'm just. It might be a total coincidence, but because I can't make sense of, out of that number 35, especially because that is in the middle of a weird, like, marshland wildlife refuge where there's nothing, no way to get to it, no landmarks. I don't know what, what that 35 would be marking. I've actually looked at a couple other possibilities besides substation stuff since then. But coincidentally, like before this meeting last night, I. I threw this into chat GPT, the SITP grid map. And I just said, what do all these numbers mean? I didn't say anything about any keys or any caches or anything. And it said it's most likely a reconnaissance map to look for somewhere to cache things. That's funny. I mean, take that with a grain of salt. I don't know.

[Josh Hallmark]

So substations, they're facilities in an electrical power system where voltage is transformed, switched and controlled to move power from generation to consumers safely and reliably. Essentially, they're the electrical interface between an electricity generator, like perhaps a hydroelectric dam, and the wider power grid. And while they are separate systems from telephone wires, substations generally depend on telecom networks to be remotely monitored and controlled. Essentially, they tend to follow and exist on the same grids. So while they have limited affiliation with each other, you can often find them in the same locations.

[Kathy Nation]

So anyway, after I saw this, I decided to see if this would apply at Blake Falls Reservoir, since that's the only other, like, known cache location that wasn't in, like, his home base. So I'm just going to show you guys something because I always thought first it was kind of weird the way he described to them how to get to that cache and then also how did he remember or know or pick which reservoir to put that out? I thought that was so weird because there's like a bazillion reservoirs up there. But as soon as I looked at this, like every time I've tried to look up the Blake Falls Reservoir cache. I've always had a hard time finding it on a regular Google map. So on here, when you look at it, like, I can already see the exact cache location. I'm going to zoom in on it for you guys. But it's literally right here where my mouse is. Right here. Wow. Right there.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

And if you zoom back out and you look at this, look at all these reservoirs, all this area, all this stuff, to me, that one, I was like, oh, I don't think that's a coincidence. I kind of don't. Who knows? But it's right next to a hydro dam, a substation, and a boat ramp. And then it's literally right here where the. Where the phone lines make that bend.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

That is the cache spot. So, I mean, if I was Israel Keys and I was like, where did I put that cash in the middle of the Adirondacks? This would be really a really easy way to remember.

[Josh Hallmark]

So while Kathy was showing us this, we pulled up the S curve at Racket river on the Tupper Lake thing.

[Michelle Tooker]

You had agents up there with the cameras, but you just wanted to talk.

[Josh Hallmark]

About the bank robbery, or were you?

[Kathy Nation]

Well, we.

[Michelle Tooker]

What we had set up was we just had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you with the live feed that we could do.

[Kathy Nation]

We can talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Michelle Tooker]

We didn't have any expectations, but we thought the natural progression because of what we've been talking would be in that general area. So we wanted to get things moving there.

[Kathy Nation]

Right.

[Michelle Tooker]

You know, and if you wanted to just, like, pull out of the parking lot and then take us to the Riverbend.

[Kathy Nation]

But. Yeah, that's like. Right, right by Tupper Lake, right? Yeah, it's right here. Yep. And then there's substations on both sides of that. The substations, like, are kind of within walking distance. I just think he's, like, the closest substation that runs by telephone lines, run right by the water. I mean, who knows with the. With the Racket river thing? There's also the vault toilet there. He might have been looking for this. Real. I got really thrown off the other day because of Hawk Mountain. There's no markers at that one other than a wildlife refuge sanctuary, but. Which also seems to be a thing. Maybe. But there's no. None of the. None of this stuff. There's no boat ramp or anything. But I don't know if you guys saw. I think I posted on the Facebook about what I found with Hawk Mountain. But anyway, this is what Josh wanted me to show you, so I'll stick with that. Fascinating.

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[Kathy Nation]

The infrastructure map I'm showing you guys right now didn't exist in 2012. I wrote to the guy who put this out and he made this map in 2016 I think. But like anyone could go look at it. It just wasn't put together in a way where so easily for me to find. But you would have to go like to look online for either. Open street maps, I think it's called Israel. Could have made his own maps of anywhere.

[Jordan Taylor]

He had an account on that website.

[Kathy Nation]

What's that?

[Jordan Taylor]

He had an OpenStreetMaps account.

[Josh Hallmark]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[Kathy Nation]

There you go.

[Josh Hallmark]

Throughout all of our data mining work back in 2023, we were able to find accounts that were attached to Qies's known email addresses. Accounts that had since been wiped, but we could still see the account data. Amongst those were multiple geocaching sites and open street maps.

[Kathy Nation]

So openstreetmaps, he could overlay different layers and I don't really, I'm not an expert. Maybe one of you guys could mess around with it or I could someday. But you can put in criteria, you could put in cemeteries, substations, power lines, whatever, and you could like overlay it all together and then you could see it. So like the 35 and the 47 and stuff. It might have been where it's like all these number twos are substations but then like the 35, that could mean that there's also a cemetery and a boat around there. Three and a five. Or it could mean there's, you know, 47 could be an abandoned house for sale and a, a church or, or whatever, you know what I mean?

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

So anyway, who knows. But I've looked at a few different places and I probably should have prepared better because based on this theory I could show you exactly where I would look if I was at Flaming Gorge. Has wants to know if you saw a substation when you were in Laplace, it's across on the other side of that busy road. That. Not airport road, but the one that goes the other way. I don't know if you saw it, but that's where it's at.

[Josh Hallmark]

I don't recall seeing. I love that she's asking as if she wasn't there with me.

[Jordan Taylor]

Yes, he would also bring a shovel.

[Kathy Nation]

I like that Kathy's on top of her. Unlike the FBI, she would bring a shovel. I have a shovel in my car right now. No, just kidding. I don't. But if I ever look for a cache, I definitely would.

[Josh Hallmark]

Also, while we were here, we did this with the coordinates in Stephenville, and there was a substation there as well.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah. So. Okay, I don't want to take up this whole meeting, but I have to tell you guys two things. So my sister, she's kind of like my Reese, my other half of my research brain. She's obsessed with researching Keys. And we talk about the case probably like two hours a day minimum. And this is like our 6am phone call every day. And so it's weird, though, because she doesn't. She doesn't know about, like, the substation stuff so much. She focuses on, like, things he said during an interview or like weird little things she found in the FOIA file that seemed to have not been brought up. And then she'll be like, what the hell? So, for instance, she starts talking to me about that missing 40 miles on the courier's car, and she starts talking to me about some comment Keys made where he said he was going to go up there instead of down there. And she was like, that doesn't make any sense. Why was he going north at that time in the conversation? And this doesn't make any sense. And she's like, I think I figured out where you might have a cat. He must have put a cash somewhere. And so then I was like, stop. Don't tell me. Don't tell me. Let me just look at the infrastructure map and see if I can guess where you're going to tell me you think cash is. And we picked the exact same spot. And then another time that happened with Texas, where she goes, I don't know. I'm looking at the map. I'm listening to the podcast, I'm listening to the interviews. There's this whole talk about this one highway and the way he goes and he's bearing a cash, he's got the bank money. And she's like, I think it's somewhere around Nacogdoches. And I was like, that's weird you say that, because somewhere in the conversation, I was like, yeah, because he even mentioned Nacogdoches in the. In the. In. When he was pulled over. And she's like, what the hell are you talking about? She had never heard that before. She's like, what? He mentioned Nakadoches. So then she's like, well, I think I figured out where a catch cash could be there. And I did the same exact thing. And I'll show you exactly where we both were going to point to the same spot. So I don't know. It's like this weird thing that happens where it's probably nothing, but I would check those spots if I was in Texas. I wish I would have known this before Josh went there. Where's Nacogdoches?

[Josh Hallmark]

To your right.

[Kathy Nation]

If you look at Nacogdoches, there's this lake right here called Lake Nacogdoches. I think there's a substation right here. There's a little boat ramp right here. And then the phone lines right here. And this. This same phone line, by the way, basically, if you followed it, it goes right to Jimmy Tidwell's backyard, which is right here. And this is the church where. The church where his grandma was buried is right next to it. Right. So. So there's another substation, and the phone lines go right through his yard. Not that the phone lines have to do with, like, everything keys did. It's just like. Was this, like, a. Was this his, like, map? Like, I could take someone, and then I could drop off their car, and then I could walk the phone lines back to the cemetery where my car is without anyone seeing me.

[Josh Hallmark]

Exactly. What he did with Tidwell, if he did Tidwell, which I believe he did. Cause I went out there, and it's where his car was parked. Is a direct.

[Kathy Nation]

I know.

[Josh Hallmark]

To his house is the phone line. Yeah, yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

Yep. Yeah. Or to the cemetery if you were to go across the street from where his car was parked. That one goes right to that cemetery. So he either could have picked him up at his house or at the cemetery. Either way, he could have picked the spot where his truck was dropped off because he took the phone lines back.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

Where was the Vermont one that you and your sister. Okay, so the Vermont one.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The.

[Kathy Nation]

So do you remember in the files anything about sandbar?

[Josh Hallmark]

That's where he went fishing.

[Kathy Nation]

That's where they thought he went fishing, which is over here. This is the sandbar fishing area somewhere over here. But where I think he went fishing is this weird little neighborhood fishing boat ramp thing called the Lemoy river fishing ramp or something. It's right here. And then there's this substation and this phone line right there. And so if I was looking for a cache, I would look right here, right there, where that phone line is.

[Josh Hallmark]

And this actually makes a lot of sense, way more sense than the sandbar fishing spot, which I've been to. It's on a main road. It's very crowded. It's the only road that connects upstate New York to Burlington directly. And it's incredibly visible, basically, from 360 degrees. So if Keyes was out there fishing and staking out spots like he told the FBI, it would be a very stupid place to do anything. Because anyone at any point, anywhere in the area would see you.

[Michelle Tooker]

I was driving around. Well, first of all, I was fishing. So I was fishing and driving around. I had got a Vermont fishing license. That was kind of my alibi for being there, I guess. Plus, I just wanted to check out the area. So I was doing a lot of driving around. And I was looking for churches, houses. And I was in the motel that I had stayed at a couple other times, I think. And I was also in that area because I wanted to dig up those guns that I had buried there. They had been there for a few years, and I wanted to check on them, make sure they weren't full of water. So I don't really. I think the way it worked is I went fishing for a day. Then I went down and found the guns, brought them back up to the motel room and worked on them for a while, getting everything working again. You mentioned that your. I think your plan was to say that you would come to the area to do some fishing. Is that right?

[Kathy Nation]

Well, I.

[Michelle Tooker]

Not so much a plan. That is actually what I was doing. I was fishing. I mean, where'd you fish? I was fishing along the. I don't know what you call.

[Kathy Nation]

Call it.

[Michelle Tooker]

Like there's a breakwater that goes out into Lake Champlain.

[Josh Hallmark]

I think I was there.

[Michelle Tooker]

Right after the flooding. There was a big flood. And there was a lot of damage that was done to the parks along the water waterways there. So I was driving around out there looking at all that. All the flooded campgrounds and damaged trees. And there were quite a few people fishing. So I stopped and asked them what they were fishing for and if they had any luck and decided that I was going to stop. And originally, I wasn't even planning on staying in Vermont. I was planning on going on to New Hampshire and maybe staying there for a couple days.

[Kathy Nation]

But.

[Michelle Tooker]

Yeah, I just decided I wanted to try fishing there. And I already had all the fishing gear with me. Not really, no. Did you have a license? Yeah, I think I got a three day license or something. Okay. Yeah, I didn't want any. I don't want you to get jammed up for fishing without a license. Yeah, they're after me for poaching already, so. I mean, that's a serious offense in Vermont.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Michelle Tooker]

But anyway, so you're. I mean, are there other areas in Vermont that you're. That you are familiar with or is it just because this is off the ferry route kind of that you decided to stay in Essex? No, I've been all through Vermont on various occasions. I don't always stay in like Burlington area.

[Josh Hallmark]

It's.

[Michelle Tooker]

It's kind of on the way to New York, though, from the route I take, so.

[Josh Hallmark]

Well, I know what I'm doing tomorrow.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah, I was thinking, I wish I would have found this spot because this was what, that conversation where my sister was like, I think he was going north to bury a cache and I was just like, stop right there. And it turns out this is, I think, something like 12 miles from Essex Junction.

[Josh Hallmark]

Oh, yeah, it's. It's, it's like a 15 minute drive.

[Kathy Nation]

Right. So like one or two trips to this cache would make 40 miles on your car. Also, this phone line runs exactly. To his hotel. Oh, yeah, it does. And the hotel. And it also continues past his hotel and ends up at the cash. Ends up at where the cache was, which was probably right around here, which also had a substation right there.

[Jordan Taylor]

He could have walked that under the COVID of darkness and had no problems.

[Kathy Nation]

I mean, that could be why he picked that hotel and why he stayed there twice.

[Josh Hallmark]

Actually, more than twice. If you listen to that clip carefully, you'll hear Kee say he stayed in that hotel a couple of times before his trip in June of 2011.

[Kathy Nation]

Because you could walk that phone line instead of walking down that Susie, whatever road or whatever that is, you could walk behind all the businesses. It goes right to the parking lot where the courier's car was left.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Kathy Nation]

Which is literally like the phone line goes right through it. And then I guess the cash was somewhere near the dog park, which. This is the dog park. So I don't know. I. In the recordings I heard, I looked at the map and said this is where I would look for a cache. I don't know where they thought his cache was, but this is where I think it probably was.

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[Josh Hallmark]

Jordan, would any of this line up with like army training for you?

[Jordan Taylor]

So a lot of, a lot of things we would do with maps would be train associations so you'd, you'd find a, some sort of notable landmark and you base your movements off of that landmark. And sometimes when you're, when you're going to like if you're, if you're going to set up like a fighting position, you would measure out to a specific object like in a field or something and you know exactly how far away that thing was in relation to you and the next group of people. So yeah tracks and makes sense. If you were using the, the substations and or the telephone lines is like a, a landmark you would probably have exactly how, how far away from that spot he he would be. And I know infantry guys are trained more in keeping what they call a pace count. So like we use like beads on a piece of rope and every you kind of how many steps you take to make like a meter. And then for every 50 meter you keep counting your steps in your head and every 50 meters you tick a beat over to the other side so you can measure your distance. So and that's common practice with them. So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he knew from his landmark exactly how far away everything was.

[Josh Hallmark]

Since this call, I was able to get my hands on the US Army Special Forces Caching Techniques Guide. It's about 40 pages, so I obviously won't read it all to you. But in addition to what Jordan just explained, there were a few points that I thought were worth mentioning in discussion around burial sites. It says to consider activities of the local population. Normal activity such as construction of a new building may uncover the cache site or impede access to it. As this relates to what we're talking about. Substations likely will not be moved at any point. In discussing concealment, it says that concealment requires the use of permanent man made or natural features to hide or disguise the cache. When discussing criteria for site selection, it says to make sure there are at least two secure routes to and from the site. And in map surveying it says usually a thorough systematic survey of the general area designated for the cache is required. The survey is best done with as large scale map of the area as is available. It will provide the indispensable reference Points for locating a cache site. Such confluences of streams, the Dungeness Spit, campground, dams and waterfalls, as we've previously mentioned, road junctures and distance villages, bridges, churches and cemeteries. There's a cemetery on the same road, half a mile down from Blake Falls Reservoir. When discussing personal reconnaissance, it ordinarily, an observer who is not a known resident of the area can pose as a tourist or a newcomer with some reason for visiting the area, A laplace. However, if the observer is a known resident of the area, he cannot suddenly take up hunting, fishing or wildlife photography without arousing interest and perhaps suspicion. But he must build up a reputation for being a devotee of his sport or hobby. When discussing reference points, Any durable landmark that is identifiable by its title or simple description can be an immediate reference point. For example, the only Roman Catholic church in a certain village, or the only bridge on a named road between two villages. The instructions must also include a final reference point which must meet four One, it must be identifiable, including at least one feature that can be used as a Precise Reference Point 2, it must be an object that will remain fixed as long as the cache may be used 3, it must be near enough to the cache to pinpoint the exact location of the cache by precise linear measurements from the final resting point to the cache and four, it should be related to the immediate reference point by a simple root description which proceeds from the immediate reference point to the final resting place. The following objects, when available, are sometimes ideal reference points. Small unfrequented bridges and dams, boundary markers, mile markers and culverts along unfrequented roads. A geodetic survey marker, battle monuments and wayside shrines. When such reference points are not available at an otherwise suitable cache site, natural or man made objects may serve as final resting points. Distinct rocks posts for power or telephone lines, intersections in stone fences or hedgerows, and gravestones in isolated cemeteries. In discussing marking techniques, it reads, the marker must be an object that is easily recognizable, but that is meaningless to an unwitting observer. For example, a small rock or a branch with its butt placed at the point selected for the emplacement of the cache. Needless to say, this guide, which Israel would have been trained on, points to all the known locations and presumed locations of Keyes's caches.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah, I was always thinking the way he talks. It seems like he did something like that. Like when he talks about where Samantha's out and stuff.

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[Kathy Nation]

Here's the Flaming Gorge spot that I think. I don't know if you checked here, but I went there.

[Josh Hallmark]

It's yeah, I would love. I went there. It's massive. And I just got to the point where I was like, I. I know I would. Never mind.

[Kathy Nation]

Less massive now if you check again because okay, there's flaming gorgeous, right? There's only really one substation. Well, there's one up here too. There's a couple areas, but this if you just zoom way in. This is actually super weird because if you look at it on a Google map, you'll see what's around here. What's the guy's name who they just found his truck last summer.

[Josh Hallmark]

Kathy's referring to Stephen Willard Anderson, who we covered last season. He disappeared on June 3, 2004, while driving from Salt Lake City to his family cabin on the Flaming Gorge Reservoir. Keyes had just returned from Utah that February and was seen again in Utah the week that Stephen went missing. Of course, that sighting is unverifiable. Just this past summer, Stephen's truck was found submerged in Flaming Gorge Reservoir. His remains were still in the truck. And while the police suspect no foul play, they have not been able to determine his cause of death.

[Kathy Nation]

But he was on his way to his cabin, which is right next to this, which I found out after all of this.

[Josh Hallmark]

Oh, wow.

[Kathy Nation]

I was like, where do I know that name from? But anyway, there is a little boat ramp right here. Right here. There's a parking lot, like a dirt parking lot right there for that boat ramp. And the power line runs right here. So, like, if it was me, that's probably where I would check is under this power line. In fact, probably right here would be my first spot. There's also another good spot. I think it's right here, this power line. So that's probably the area I would focus on if I went back to Lightning Gorge.

[Josh Hallmark]

Can you go to Southern California? Yeah, yeah, go to.

[Kathy Nation]

I looked at Paris.

[Josh Hallmark]

That's where I was going to send you.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah, so here's Paris, and here's Bernas Scobie Beach. And here's the power line that runs behind it, up the rocks where. It sounded like maybe he went up that hill, but I don't know.

[Josh Hallmark]

Well, in that, like it. There's a bunch of, like, rocks, like the. Like the rocks he hit it under in Blake Falls Reservoir, which are also the rocks at Hawk Mountain, too. And it's all right along that ridge right there. During the filming of Citizen Detective, retired FBI agent Bobby Chacon and I met at Lake Perris. And as we surveyed Bernasconi beach, where the very credible sighting of Keyes digging up a cache occurred, Chacon pointed to that specific crop of rocks and said that that right there is where Keyes would hide a kill kit.

[Kathy Nation]

But, yeah, I mean, it kind of. It narrows down the search field if it's definitely going to be tied to phone lines and stuff. I mean, he had to have some kind of method.

[Josh Hallmark]

I think it's the most sound thing we've seen so far. I agree.

[Kathy Nation]

I hope it turns. I hope it pans out and I just want them to find some evidence. Man, it would be so amazing.

[Josh Hallmark]

There has to be some simplicity to all this because you remembered it all so effortlessly. And I think this makes.

[Kathy Nation]

I.

[Josh Hallmark]

This makes it easier because I think even if you're, like, looking for a boat ramp or a cemetery, that's going to be harder to find. But if you're looking for.

[Kathy Nation]

Oh, yeah, all these years, I've been like. Because I live, like, right by Depot Bay, so I've always been like, if I thought he was bearing caches way back then, I would be. How would I even know where to look, though? There's a boat ramp every. Every, like, half a mile. There's a river, there's a campground, there's a trailhead. So I'm like, how did he do this? It's crazy, but there has to be something. So I read the army training manual for caching and stuff, and there's always something. There's got to be like, you know, railroads or something. But with him, I. I really feel like you've been onto it since the start with the phone lines and. And I think maybe just like, zeroing in more on the substations, and then he knows there's phone lines going. Whichever directions from that.

[Jordan Taylor]

Well, Kaz just made a good point. They're. They're very permanent structure, so they're not going to be going anywhere.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah, yeah. They could build a shopping mall out there at Flaming Gorge, and probably they're not going to move those phone lines. It would be a huge deal if they did.

[Josh Hallmark]

Yeah.

[Jordan Taylor]

This is very interesting.

[Kathy Nation]

Yeah, yeah, really interesting. Thank you.

[Josh Hallmark]

That's also in the same stretch that is highlighted on the map, so.

[Jordan Taylor]

Hey, he didn't do that. Watch yourself.

[Kathy Nation]

It. Too many hearts locked in the room Caprice I slipped by the rock Break out the thuds Clip them in half fully victims hitting fast designate shipping and out solo fires Making the scene come my little war Letting your step have been Fight for another.

[Josh Hallmark]

This episode was written, researched, edited, and produced by josh hallmark, with additional research by kathy nation, jordan taylor, and michelle tooker. This episode featured kathy nation, jordan taylor, michelle tooker, and shayna walensky, and the episode was made possible by the following patreon producers. Amy basil, kendall c. Ash fish, heather horton, whedon, sherri d. Kristin hoffman, dale axton, stephanie taylor, drew vipond, amelia hancock, christina sisson, nicole and dennis henry, jillian natale, lana holliday, rural juror Tuesday woodworth, kathleen s. Annette l. Casey jensen richardson sc benjamin chapa fong, dan delrossi, trista, nicole pink, jen j, corey d, robyn carol, michelle jordan m. Kate luzier, sarah c, john comrie, kathy nation, virginia williams, kerry jordan t. Bethany, david begley, ally, lauren ferry, chris s, tory meyer, sabrina abbott, megan daigle, ashley coupland, michael randall, duane c, jen tricola and trixie. Thank you to true crime bullshit's newest patreon supporters, mark g, christine m, betsy, kristin noir, slickfreak, sarah, emily b, rhys, jessica l, liz b? Nene, heather e and miriam r. To support the investigation and get ad free episodes go to patreon.comstudiobothand this episode included music by sonic yard with featured music by the foundry field recordings.

[Kathy Nation]

Holding the controlling Filter it out. No one is clear how cameras moving forever follow the grass it equals the tr now it's time they're going to. Falling down. Everything is coming down. Sam.

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