July 12, 2012, part 2

Summary

True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode: July 12, 2012 (part 2)

Release Date: June 24, 2026
Host/Production: Studio BOTH/AND, Josh Hallmark
Episode Focus: Full interrogation audio—Israel Keyes interviewed by the FBI, deepening the series’ exploration of his methods, psychology, and possible victims.

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Episode Overview

This episode broadcasts the July 12, 2012 FBI interrogation of Israel Keyes, diving deep into his reflections on his crimes, motivations, evading capture, and personal life. Hallmark frames this as a critical interview for Season 7—rich with unsettling glimpses into Keyes’ criminal psyche, operational strategies, and detachment. The episode moves through Keyes’s burglaries, bank robberies, inspirations, logistics, relationships, and more.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Near-Misses and Evasion

Timestamps: 03:38–05:58

• Keyes recounts nearly being caught during a bank robbery in Tupper Lake, New York.
• Detects an unmarked police car, quickly pulls off at a campground to hide.
• Waits for hours—“sat there for several hours and figured by then everybody who was going to be at the scene was going to be there.”
• Town went into lockdown, with schools shut and SWAT teams patrolling.

  Memorable Quote:
  “I remember reading about it a few days later. That one really freaked them out because it was such a small town. They locked all the schools and everything, SWAT teams patrolling the streets or whatever.” (Keyes, 05:23)

2. Motivation and Method for Burglaries

Timestamps: 06:30–08:16

• Emphasizes he did not commit burglaries for money, often taking only jewelry or guns.

• Burglaries were more out of habit, challenge, or “for old times’ sake.”

• Approached burglaries differently from typical offenders: “I go in loaded for bear. …just knowing that if something happens, it’s, you know… I always went ready for whatever.”

  Quote:
  "When I go in to do a burglary, I don’t go in to do it like most people do. I go in loaded for bear." (Keyes, 08:02)

3. Handling of Stolen Items

Timestamps: 09:05–09:54

• Stolen guns and jewelry were not kept on his person or at home but cached in hidden locations.
• “Statute of limitations, like five or seven years or something like that? …Makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked.” (Keyes, 09:34–09:54)

4. Enjoyment and Psychological Thrill

Timestamps: 10:12–11:25

• Derived thrill not only from the act but watching people’s reactions afterward—particularly from a distance, rarely waiting inside homes.

5. Inspiration from Media and Other Killers

Timestamps: 12:09–19:53

• Claims movies gave him no new ideas, but some low-budget slasher movies “pissed him off” for using methods he’d already thought of: “Been there, done that a couple years ago. And I was kind of pissed off with that one because as far as I know, nobody had thought of that or I’d never read about it.” (Keyes, 12:29)
• Read "Intensity" by Dean Koontz for a villain's POV.
• Studied the mistakes of criminals like Bundy to learn “what NOT to do.”
• Admires H.H. Holmes for preying on the lack of suspicion and surveillance of his time.

  Quote:
  “Back then you could hire other people to build dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it… anything I build like that nowadays I kind of have to do myself.” (Keyes, 20:02)

6. Reflections on Crime Duration and Fantasy vs. Reality

Timestamps: 20:25–23:44

• Never held victims long; would have liked to orchestrate longer crimes (“retirement plan”) but never felt safe enough to try.
• Acknowledges dual lives, stating things only became difficult at the end due to losing interest, not the burden of maintaining multiple personas.

7. Relationships and Compartmentalization

Timestamps: 23:51–32:34

• Sought partners with independent lives—Kimberly, for instance, was “self-contained,” allowing Keyes freedom.
• Confirms long-term relationships rather than numerous casual ones; seemed to date “personality types” that wouldn’t question or restrict his movements.
• Details his moves geographically and his timeline (Army service, post-service moves).

8. Financial Logistics

Timestamps: 33:48–38:46

• Did not rob banks solely for financing his crimes but for the challenge.
• Discusses credit card strategies—wasn’t worried about repaying debts.
• Robberies were a side pursuit, not strictly financial:

  “Bank robberies were more like a challenge kind of thing. …Not like you can do one and not be noticed.” (Keyes, 38:30)

9. Planning and Escape Strategies

Timestamps: 39:06–40:19

• Put extensive planning into escape routes, always preparing multiple backups.

  Quote:
  “Yeah, I usually would have two or three different routes planned out…” (Keyes, 39:36)

10. Alternate Careers and The “Cover Job” Concept

Timestamps: 40:19–43:15

• Thought about becoming a police officer for the infiltration, not the justice aspect.
• Ultimately uninterested due to the mundane parts of the job.
• Tax strategy: “I believe in staying under the radar.”

11. Caches, Trophies, and Evidence

Timestamps: 56:06–63:59

• Searched for news about his crimes using generic queries, seldom searching with specific names.
• Buried stolen goods more for the act of hiding and possessing than using or selling.
• Claims he didn’t take traditional “trophies,” citing concerns about physical evidence.

  Quote:
  “All the stuff’s just in my head.” (Keyes, 63:04)

12. Prostitutes and Casual Encounters

Timestamps: 65:20–68:42

• Used female prostitutes, never sought out male prostitutes or Craigslist casual encounters, asserting it was not of interest.

13. Social Detachment and Peer Recognition

Timestamps: 51:12–55:31

• Talks about recognizing similar traits in others, especially in the Army.
• Mentions “Matthew,” an acquaintance he connected with over darker tendencies, but never maintained long-term friendships.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On technology and changing times:
  “Too many freaking video cameras nowadays.” (Keyes, 06:47)
• On learning from others’ mistakes:
  “Yeah, well, I got lots of those kind of ideas like what not to do from books and movies and true crime tv. Yeah, there’s no shortage of what not to do.” (Keyes, 18:39)
• On relationships facilitating double life:
  “If I said, well, I’m going to fly such and such a place and do this and that and they would say, okay.” (Keyes, 26:23)
• On robbing banks:
  “I never did a note robbery. In my mind, that wasn’t even really a robbery. I didn’t really have any interest in that.” (Keyes, 38:54)
• On self-concept:
  “I was never interested in being the good guy. I was interested in having a career.” (Keyes, 41:41)
• On trophies:
  “The things I would have been interested in taking wouldn’t have been safe, put it that way.” (Keyes, 63:26)

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Major Segments & Timestamps

• Close Call After Bank Robbery: 03:38–05:58
• Motivations for Burglaries/Crimes: 06:30–08:16
• Inspiration & Learning from the Media: 12:09–19:53
• Fantasy vs. Reality (Dungeons, Duration): 20:25–23:44
• Relationships and Compartmentalization: 23:51–32:34
• Financial Angle: 33:48–38:46
• Planning and Evasion: 39:06–40:19
• Jobs, Cover, and Taxes: 40:19–43:15
• News Searches & Evidence Handling: 56:06–63:59
• Prostitution & Social Behavior: 65:20–68:42

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Summary and Show Significance

This episode offers a rare, chilling window into the thinking of Israel Keyes, revealing his calculated amorality, emotional detachment, and chilling sense of humor. He relishes the challenge and psychology of crime, not strictly the criminal spoils, and treats relationships as utilities to further his hidden life. Rather than direct “confession,” Keyes provides meta-commentary—on society, surveillance, true crime culture, and himself.

Hallmark’s decision to air the raw interrogation audio allows listeners to experience the uncomfortable normalcy and matter-of-factness with which Keyes describes his acts and mindset—crucial context for understanding his unsolved crimes and potential undiscovered victims as the series continues.

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Transcript

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey everybody. I just ad libbed the most perfect preface to this episode and then of course realized the microphone was off. Let's see if I can do it again. Probably not. Before we start this episode, I have a few announcements. The first is I am so pumped to finally be able to promote our 10th anniversary special here in North Adams, Massachusetts in the Berkshires. Think of it as less of a convention and more of a retreat. There will be live shows, cocktail parties, activities, meet and greets, hangouts, and plenty of time to actually explore the Berkshires. The perfect time of year at the end of summer and just at the beginning of leaf peeping season. And I'm excited to announce that some of my favorite people in podcasting will be here making special guest appearances like Justin and Aaron from Generation Y, Amanda from Wine and Crime, Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed, Charlie Worrell from Crimelines, Tawny Plattis from String and Tell, and many more dear friends being announced. Soon we'll be doing a live show of the Karen and Ellen Letters featuring Amanda Jacobson as Karen. I will be telling the story of Kelly Cochran to Patrick Hines, the research team and I will be doing a very, very special episode of Playlist and More. Plus there will be studio sessions and an entire Bravo Town hall, wine tasting, a dinner party, and so much more. And we're only selling 80 tickets, so this will be a super intimate gathering. So join me the weekend of September 25th here in the Berkshires. Our closest airport is Albany, and if you can't swing that, just a reminder, we are going to the Galapagos Islands January 11th through the 17th. I'll be there with my partner Andrew, Charlie from Crimelines, and a bunch of other incredible people who have come on past trips with us. So picture it. It's January. It's 35 degrees here in the States. But you're not here. Instead, you're in a tropical paradise in one of the most unique areas of the world. Literally snorkeling with sea lions or sitting on a beach checking out the blue footed boobies while Drinking a pina colada with me. We'll be talking Bravo true crime and making what I've learned our life lasting friendships. Cannot wait to see you there. Check out the show notes to buy tickets or learn more about both events or go to bothand FYI. And now here is the second part of Keys. 07-12-2012 interview with the FBI and of all the interviews I'm going to play for you during our time away, this one will be the most critical for season seven of True Crime Bullshit, which premieres October 5th. Can't wait to see you then. And if not, then hopefully before. This is a studio both and production.

[Interviewer 1]

Do you ever get close to being caught doing any of those, Any arsons or any bank robberies? Which arson or bank robbery.

[Interviewee]

Or bank robbery. I think I got pretty close.

[Interviewer 2]

It makes you think that.

[Interviewee]

Actually it was. It was that one that you guys know about now, that one in New York, in Tupper Lake. Yeah, there was. I was leaving and there was a car that passed me and I knew it was a detective or somebody because they had a. They had a visor light or something, some kind of light. I knew it was a cop of some kind anyway. And it wasn't like an official patrol car, but I think there were a couple people in was windy roads going through the mountains and stuff. And kind of on a hunch, I was. I was thinking, well, because this was quite a while after the robbery, I was quite a ways from the scene, I was thinking, well, just in case they. In case they have a vehicle description or something, I better pull off the road. And there was a campground and I pulled off really quick and kind of helped. Kind of backed into some trees and just sat there for a while and was counting money. And I think I saw the same car go back the other way, like it might have been looking for me. So I don't know if they. I don't even know if it was the same car. It went by really fast, but it looked like it could have been the same car.

[Interviewer 2]

Fast, like it was trying to catch up to you.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I don't know for sure if they were, but all the same, I think I sat there for quite a while, sat there for several hours and figured by then everybody who was going to be at the scene was going to be there. I remember reading about it a few days later. That one really freaked them out because it was such a small town. They locked all the schools and everything, SWAT teams patrolling the streets or whatever.

[Interviewer 2]

But yeah, that was.

[Interviewee]

I was thinking at the Time I was like, I'm just gonna hang out at this campground and count money and stuff and everybody stops by. I'll just act like I'm fishing and

[Interviewer 2]

did you have a fishing pole?

[Interviewee]

I think I did on that trip. I don't think I had a license though.

[Interviewer 2]

Not for need to take that ticket for that though. Yeah, probably.

[Interviewee]

But.

[Interviewer 2]

Why do you think you were able to. And talking about the practical crimes, why do you think you were able to get away with so successfully with it? Sounds like you did a lot of bank robberies and burglaries and those kind of things.

[Interviewee]

Oh, my days were numbered. Too many freaking video cameras nowadays.

[Interviewer 2]

So the times changed.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, it was easy when all you had to worry about was fingerprints and witnesses and DNA. That stuff's all pretty easy.

[Interviewer 2]

But you also had, depending on what you take, like if you committed burglary, you still have to. If it's, if it's not monetary, if it's not money, you have to sell it or get rid of it or those kind of things. When you were doing burglaries, what kind of things did you take from houses? Well, besides people,

[Interviewee]

for the most part, it's not like I needed the money.

[Interviewer 1]

So what was the motivation then for the burglaries if it wasn't they were

[Interviewee]

just for old times sake?

[Interviewer 2]

Well, you said you get the same. They seem so different, but you described them as kind of the same. The killings to robberies, burglaries, arsons to some degree. I mean they seem so different and far apart, but you seem to get some.

[Interviewee]

That's because when I go in to do a burglary, I don't go in to do it like most people do. I. I go in loaded for bear,

[Interviewer 2]

so to speak, and hoping there's gonna be people there.

[Interviewee]

No, not necessarily. Just. Just knowing that if something happens, it's, you know, it's like if I ever got caught in the act doing anything, I'm not going to go meekly away in handcuffs or whatever. I always went ready for whatever.

[Interviewer 1]

So what would your motivation be going in? What would you be looking for? What would you.

[Interviewer 2]

Burglaries.

[Interviewee]

I usually just jewelry and guns. Small guns? Smallish.

[Interviewer 2]

So some of that. Are some of the guns that you still have in places, those guns or did you always get rid of those?

[Interviewee]

No, I didn't get rid of them because of the worried about them getting tracked.

[Interviewer 2]

So you keep them, but you don't keep them with you so that you're not caught with them. So you keep them in A cache somewhere and then use them when you

[Interviewee]

need the statute of limitations, like five or seven years or something like that?

[Interviewer 1]

I don't even know.

[Interviewer 2]

So you wait. I can't tell whether that's supposed to be a joke or whether we're gonna get charged with that or whether. So you hide them for the statute of limitations period before you use them.

[Interviewee]

Makes it a lot less likely that they get tracked.

[Interviewer 1]

Was part of the burglary similar to what you. Similar, but different to what you talked about with the woods, where you're sitting there and you can watch people and they don't know you're watching them. Is it similar in a burglar? Because when you're in somebody's house, you're going through their stuff? Yeah, that same kind of sense.

[Interviewer 2]

So would it be.

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[Interviewer 2]

Would you try to do it to where they didn't even know it happened or make sure they knew it happened? Like, I mean, breaking windows and breaking doors to go in or get it somehow on.

[Interviewee]

No, it would depend. It would depend on situation, I guess more often than not. There was usually a lot of destruction. But sometimes I wouldn't. Sometimes I would just, you know. Sometimes I wouldn't take anything at all necessarily. Maybe if you. Little things.

[Interviewer 2]

So destruction, like damage rather than destruction, like looking for stuff. Because a lot of burglars you go into, all the drawers are open, all those clothes are on the ground. Everything's been destroyed. Looking.

[Interviewee]

I never did that.

[Interviewer 2]

So destroy to destroy.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

You like to watch people. Do you ever watch. Wait in the house and watch people or wait and watch people come back to see what the reaction would be?

[Interviewee]

I would wait in the woods sometime. That was years and years ago, though.

[Interviewer 1]

Not wait in the house to watch for them to come back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not.

[Interviewee]

No, not burglaries. No.

[Interviewer 1]

That's getting on to other crimes. I'm guessing by that reaction.

[Interviewer 2]

I also noticed on some of your. On your computers and actually some of the stuff in your vehicle that you have some different movies. Do you get ideas for movies or is that you just like.

[Interviewee]

No ideas movies still? My ideas. Should have got some of them copyrighted. Kind of pissed me off.

[Interviewer 2]

You did some of those first?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, there's some cheap, low budget slasher movie. Some guy made it, Been there, done that a couple years ago. And I was kind of pissed off with that one because as far as I know, nobody had thought of that or I'd never read about it.

[Interviewer 1]

Which movie was that?

[Interviewee]

I don't remember what it was called.

[Interviewer 2]

Some stuff.

[Interviewee]

Stupid college kid movie. He was all proud of himself because he was using cable ties.

[Interviewer 1]

What'd he do in the movie?

[Interviewee]

He strangled this girl with a cable tie. I thought of that right after cable ties were invented. Or at least those big ones.

[Interviewer 2]

The thick ones, huh? The big, thick ones, yeah.

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[Interviewer 1]

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[Interviewer 1]

Anything else from the movies?

[Interviewee]

No movie. Movies are like video games. They're a lot of fun, but they're not really not like the real thing.

[Interviewer 2]

I guess I was curious as to more whether it was the movies that gave you ideas or whether everything, anything you've done has kind of been your own thoughts.

[Interviewee]

I can't think of any movies that I got. Well, there was a book I read years and years ago that gave me a lot of ideas, but I can't really blame that because I was already doing stuff when I read that book.

[Interviewer 2]

But it gave you ideas?

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 2]

What book was that?

[Interviewee]

It's called Intensity by Dean Koontz. That was the first book I had read that kind of talked about things from the other point of view. Like I read crime novels all the time, but it's always from the detective's point of view. It's never from the bad guy's point of view. And it always pissed me off that I could never find one from the bad guy's point of view. So like I read that one.

[Interviewer 2]

But you said you used to read crime books, so did you get ideas from that?

[Interviewee]

No, nothing specific, I don't think.

[Interviewer 2]

How about from studying Bundy and other people on things that they did that either got them caught or that you thought was a bad idea that you stopped doing or don't do or didn't because of that?

[Interviewee]

I. Yeah, well, I got lots of those kind of ideas like what not to do from books and movies and true crime tv. Yeah, there's no shortage of what not to do. If I had, like I say, if I'd been following my own rules. Yeah.

[Interviewer 2]

Like do you know, for Bundy for instance, do you know enough about him to know where he was doing things and those kind of things? Do you know those details on him?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I know. I. Yeah, I know serial killers all the way back to my other serial killer hero. I guess not really even relevant because he was so long ago was H.H.

[Interviewer 2]

holmes.

[Interviewee]

He was pretty much a Genius. But back in his day it was pretty easy to be a genius because nobody really expected stuff like that back then. You got away with it for a long time.

[Interviewer 1]

No technology really to have to outsmart.

[Interviewer 2]

Right.

[Interviewee]

Back then you could hire other people to build dungeons for you and nobody would even think twice about it. Oh, that guy wants a dungeon. Well, anything I build like that nowadays I kind of have to do myself.

[Interviewer 1]

That kind of warrants an obvious follow up question of do you have a dungeon? Have you ever built anything like that?

[Interviewee]

Not no. Nothing that elaborate.

[Interviewer 2]

Something you would have liked to have though?

[Interviewee]

Well, I have plenty of plans for him. It's not really. More my retirement plan.

[Interviewer 1]

Your stuff seems to be. The stuff that we know about seems to be kind of quick in the sense that it happens over a day period of time or 12 hour period of time or something like that. And again we told you we weren't going to get into like push you for specifics on a lot of this, on this kind of stuff. But were there crimes where you. You did keep someone for longer than that?

[Interviewee]

No, no. A few hours.

[Interviewer 2]

Plans to and didn't work out or just you purposely kept it short like that for logistics reasons and not getting caught?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I was, I had plans to. You know, It would have been nice if I could have done that, but I was never set up to do it to where it would have been pretty high risk if I had ever tried to do that.

[Interviewer 1]

You joked about the retirement plan. Was that something you had thought about trying to figure out a way to do that though logistically a way to be able to do that?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, it's a lot easier to do it if you're a bachelor. So it would have been a few years before I started construction.

[Interviewer 2]

Was it. And I guess I don't know that any of them. Was it easy to have a relationship with say Kimberly and still and be. Or did it become harder or. It seems like it would be extremely difficult to maintain kind of the two

[Interviewer 1]

lives that you talked about.

[Interviewee]

It only got hard at the end, but it wasn't the relationship. It was, you know, everything got harder at the end. Just lost interest. It was like I simultaneously lost interest in a lot of other things and. Tried to kick start it and get, you know, get it back. Kind of snapped myself out of it a few times and then just couldn't maintain it anymore.

[Interviewer 2]

So, you know, so it was, it wasn't like the typical relationship breakdown. It was you.

[Interviewee]

Oh yeah, it was.

[Interviewer 1]

Do you think over the years any of the people that you were with Kimberly or whoever or Tammy or whoever before. Do you think any of them had any ideas about the other side of you?

[Interviewee]

I imagine 2020 hindsight, they might remember some stuff, but I can't remember any time where, Where there was any question as to what I was or who I was.

[Interviewer 1]

Maybe questions about where you were, but not necessarily.

[Interviewee]

There were some questions about where I had been. But I always, like I say, I usually planned things so that I had, I don't know, they sounded like good reasons, excuses to me and nobody ever really called me on them. So I don't know.

[Interviewer 2]

I know at one point in time you told us that Kimberly was oblivious to, you know, you use that word, I think, to what was going on and stuff. Do you think that there was, you know, when you met her, was there some type of an attraction like that that you perceived that, that it would be an easy relationship to carry on because she wouldn't be suspicious? Was Tammy the same way? I've never, I don't know. I've never met Tammy. I have Kimberly, but none.

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[Interviewee]

there's. Yeah, there's certain personality types that I. Would work harder at having a relationship with because, You know, they would have. Like Kimberly, for example, she has pretty hectic career and her own, she has her own social life and she's, I guess she's say like a self contained person. So we had a good relationship but it was easy to separate myself from it and go do my own thing and then she would do her own thing and both of us were always okay with that. Whereas, you know, some other personality types, you know, like once you're together, it's like everything has to be done together. That would have made it kind of hard. But you know, like with Kimberly and the girlfriend I had before her, they had their own careers and stuff. So if I said, well, I'm going to fly such and such a place and do this and that and they would say, okay. And there was never this, well, I want to come with you. You know, they wouldn't do that because they had a job.

[Bluff]

So.

[Interviewer 2]

Was there a relationship between Tammy and Kimberly?

[Interviewee]

Not really. Just there was a little bit of drama at one point, but no, there wasn't a relationship.

[Interviewer 2]

Is that somebody in Washington?

[Interviewee]

You're asking if they knew each other?

[Interviewer 2]

No, no, no. I'm asking who it is. If you dated, was there somebody else? Because you said another girlfriend?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, for a while.

[Interviewer 2]

Who was that?

[Interviewee]

Her name was Denise. She lived in, she had a family in Neah Bay and she lived In Kent, down by sea Tac or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Bluff (Alternate)]

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[Interviewer 1]

Did you date a lot?

[Interviewee]

Not really. I usually had a girlfriend, but I didn't, you know.

[Interviewer 1]

Were they more kind of just long term relationships? It wasn't just a lot of short relationships.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. I mean, there were periods in between where I would date a few people, but for the most part, longer term the better.

[Interviewer 1]

When did you meet Tammy? How long?

[Interviewee]

I met her when I was in the army.

[Interviewer 1]

When you were stationed in Washington?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I think that was. I think I met her right after I got back from Egypt.

[Interviewer 1]

So time frame wise you were in because I, I know I missed some of this and so stop me if we've been. You guys have been through this before. You went into the military when you were how old? 20. Okay, so that would have been 98, right? I knew the date at one point, but yeah, sometime in 98. Okay. And then in the military you moved around a little bit in the military, you went overseas, came, came back, and then you were in. Stationed in Washington.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

And then were you stationed in Washington when you got out of the military? In Washington when you decided to get out of the military?

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Okay. And then from there you went to live in Neah Bay? Yeah, with Tammy. Okay, where'd you move from the, where's the next place you move then from Neah Bay? Here. Here. Okay, so it's just been. Since the military, it's only been Alaska and Nia Bay. Yeah. Okay. Prior to the military, I know you had said you'd been in. You were in Oregon for like that nine months or whatever, building the house. Was that right before the military?

[Interviewee]

No, then I lived in upstate New York for. It was less than a year before I went in the army.

[Interviewer 2]

Okay, so you were in Oregon in like 96? 97.

[Interviewee]

Right.

[Interviewer 1]

And then upstate New York. And then. And then before Oregon it was. Was it Washington because you're with your ear. With your parents?

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Okay. And your property's in New York. Yeah. All right. I think I got it.

[Interviewer 2]

One of the things I was noticing and looking at some of your stuff, it looks like when you Came to Alaska, it looks like financially things started. Is it because it was more expensive up here or is it because you had to go outside to do these? Do the things that you were doing when you lived outside. I mean, you've got. When you lived in Washington, you could driveway soon. And then you come up here and you have to fly because you don't like doing things right in your own. I mean, it looks like there's an obvious progression of. Would you say you had money problems or no?

[Interviewee]

I mean, I had a lot of credit. I wasn't really worried about the credit.

[Interviewer 2]

You weren't planning on paying it off?

[Interviewee]

Probably not.

[Interviewer 2]

So I guess then my question would be then, so since you lived in Alaska, would you say that with some of these things, like financing things, whether you had burglaries or robberies that they have, did you have to do more when you were here to survive, in other words, and keep Looks like making your minimum payments on your credit cards when they got to the.

[Interviewee]

Seems like there was one time that I did. There was something that went wrong that happened a few times after I went in business for myself. There would be a job that went bad or I didn't get paid for, and then I would have to scramble a little bit. But for the most part, I didn't really worry too much about that.

[Interviewer 2]

Scramble meaning book of flight.

[Interviewee]

Figure out what to do I was gonna do about money to pay the bills. But for the most part, I didn't really like to worry about that stuff too much.

[Interviewer 2]

And a lot of stuff is just curiosity too. Like for. You said the bank in Azelle, you said. I said $10,000 is a lot of money. And you're like, no, it's not.

[Interviewee]

Well, it was a small bank. It seems like it was a pretty small bank.

[Interviewer 2]

What's. What's a. What would be a. Without. Hypothetically, what would be a good. What's a good bank score? If 10,000 is not.

[Interviewee]

No, that's. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm just saying for a bank robbery, that's. I don't know, for a takeover robbery, that's not that much money.

[Interviewer 2]

For a good takeover robbery, what could one expect?

[Interviewee]

I would think. More than $10,000.

[Interviewer 2]

So if someone was a. If someone developed, was a pretty decent bank robber and had a, oh, 14, 15 year career doing it, how much money do you think one could maybe not accumulate, but. Have you thought of that? Do you know that exactly?

[Interviewee]

I don't know. I suppose accumulate a lot of money. You can Accumulate a lot of things.

[Interviewer 1]

What's the most you've gotten?

[Interviewee]

I. I don't know that. Honestly.

[Interviewer 1]

More than 10?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, more than 10.

[Interviewer 2]

But I think we asked you this before too. So you're not, you're not, you're not going to say that the bank robberies and stuff like that was to specifically facilitate and finance these other things that you were doing, like every trip that you went out enabled you to continue to do it?

[Interviewee]

No.

[Interviewer 2]

Or it was. I mean, did you do that too so you could afford to continue to do this?

[Interviewer 1]

No,

[Interviewee]

The bank robberies were

[Bluff (Alternate)]

more of

[Interviewee]

like a challenge kind of thing. Thing and a curiosity kind of thing to see if I could get away with it, I guess because it was, you know, not like you can do one and not be noticed.

[Interviewer 1]

It's.

[Interviewer 2]

Did you progress in them from. I think you referred to it as poor man's bank robbery initially.

[Interviewee]

I never did a note robbery. In my mind, that wasn't even really a robbery. I didn't really have any interest in that.

[Interviewer 2]

And so then before each one of these and you, I assume you plan your route. I know you have. I know you looked at routes in and out of towns and things like that when you were looking at towns. So did you. What if. Did you do a scenario where you. After this bank robbery, if the cops come in, I'm going to this, I'm going to drive this way. If something happens, I mean, how did you prepare for what could have happened? Or do you think you would have just improvised? I mean, did you always have a.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I usually would have two or three different routes planned out and

[Karen Kilgariff]

try

[Interviewee]

to figure out what the most likely route or the best route to take based on whether how many police might be coming in from where type of thing.

[Interviewer 2]

Did you think about military police or did you ever. Have you ever thought about being police?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I considered. I considered it. By the time I got out of the military, I decided it probably wasn't a very good idea.

[Interviewer 2]

The whole polygraph thing.

[Interviewee]

No, I wasn't really thinking of that. But yeah, that's a good point. What kind of questions they ask on it?

[Interviewer 2]

So, you know, did you actually try to become a police officer?

[Interviewee]

No, I think I was looking at applications and stuff at one point, but I.

[Nissan Ad Speaker 3]

Not,

[Interviewee]

not seriously.

[Bluff]

I.

[Interviewee]

Too many domestic situations to deal with. If it was all bang, bang, shoot them up, I probably would have been there in a minute.

[Interviewer 2]

Very little of that.

[Interviewee]

Right.

[Interviewer 2]

But that's why I said. You said you read criminal books and stuff, so you had some propensity to. Or were you reading them just to.

[Interviewee]

Oh, I was interested in it, but I was never interested in being the good guy. I was interested in having a career. I wasn't really interested in becoming a. I don't know what the traditional reasons are for why people want to be and police, but I guess I was more interested in it. Curiosity. Better to be on the inside than on the outside looking in kind of thing.

[Interviewer 2]

So it would have been a cover job?

[Interviewee]

Well, yeah.

[Interviewer 2]

Did you try other jobs? I know you were, you know, contractor for. Even in Neah Bay, you were maintenance or.

[Interviewee]

I worked for the tribe. Yeah. Well, officially I was Parks and Recreation, but I did a lot of different things there for them.

[Interviewer 2]

Any jobs at. For other people? Like businesses? McDonald's?

[Interviewee]

No, no. My, my. I've had a lot of. I've done a lot of work and jobs, but as far as jobs where you pay taxes, I haven't really had that many.

[Interviewer 2]

You believe in taxes or is that just necessary evil?

[Interviewee]

I believe in staying under the radar.

[Interviewer 2]

Pay them so they don't ask why. You're not right.

[Interviewee]

Had you tried my thoughts when I was arrested, I was like, man, I bet you I'm not going to get to file my taxes.

[Interviewer 1]

Had you traveled to Alaska before you moved up here? Had you visited?

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

When did you visit?

[Interviewee]

I don't remember. It seems like I flew up a couple sometimes, though.

[Interviewer 1]

Like right before you moved up and planning, or was it like years before for fishing trips and that kind of thing?

[Interviewee]

No, it was right before. Prior to that, I had done some road trips into Canada, I think, but I don't. Yeah, I never made up to Alaska.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Nissan Ad Speaker 1]

Bro. From the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill?

[Nissan Ad Speaker 2]

Because this is our life backstage on the road. It's loud, messy, real.

[Nissan Ad Speaker 3]

And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving.

[Nissan Ad Speaker 1]

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[Nissan Ad Speaker 2]

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[Nissan Ad Speaker 3]

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[Nissan Ad Speaker 1]

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[Interviewer 2]

This easiest one we're ever going to find.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Kristen Davis]

Probably

[Interviewer 2]

even with your help, huh?

[Interviewer 1]

You're really close. I think you had said like a quarter mile past the parking lot ended up being about a half mile, but beyond that it was.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 2]

Did you. Was there something like that in the road or how'd you know where in the woods? It was just because of the berm or was there like telephone poles or.

[Interviewee]

No, just landmarks, trees, driveways, stuff like that. I actually saw that.

[Interviewer 2]

Did I take it? I'm like, I bet flat shovel would have sucked to actually dig in a hole. So there's that dish. I bet he was just gonna fill it in.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. It was already dug. There's really only room for one person in the house.

[Interviewer 1]

We've asked you a lot of questions so far. Do you have any questions? Any questions for us?

[Interviewee]

Do you have any Vermont pictures for me?

[Interviewer 1]

No.

[Interviewer 2]

I guess we could show you pictures of the dump? Is that what you want to see? There isn't any. There hasn't been a recovery there yet.

[Interviewee]

Oh, I know. Eventually I obviously finished.

[Interviewer 1]

Do we. You didn't see. Haven't seen a picture of the landfill yet.

[Interviewee]

I saw an aerial picture from the news bulletin, but.

[Interviewer 1]

Okay. Yeah, I think. No, I think we've got some of the landfill. I does that.

[Interviewer 2]

You don't believe us or you just want to see?

[Interviewee]

No, I believe you.

[Interviewer 2]

I mean, don't you.

[Interviewee]

Pretty elaborate lie.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, there's a lot of money that's been spent out there already on this, so. No, I think we can. We can find a couple pictures and for next time.

[Interviewee]

Yeah. One thing I was gonna say, as this goes along, as this progresses,

[Interviewer 2]

we'll

[Interviewee]

have to work out some sort of arrangement where I get to see

[Interviewer 2]

the same thing that you see.

[Interviewee]

The evidence.

[Interviewer 2]

The.

[Interviewee]

Well, your evidence. I guess if.

[Interviewer 2]

If we. If we recover, there's going to be some issues.

[Interviewee]

Not just that, but everything we talk about.

[Interviewer 2]

Okay.

[Interviewee]

Like videos.

[Interviewer 1]

You want to see like what we find.

[Interviewee]

That's not saying you have to see everything. I'm sure you're not going to show me everything anyway, but you know, like

[Interviewer 1]

something to corroborate that were just something

[Interviewee]

for me to look at.

[Interviewer 1]

Is that because you want to make sure that we're being honest with you or because you just want to see it?

[Interviewee]

Because I just want to see it. Not very many kicks in 23 hour lockdown. So I'm gonna take my kicks where

[Interviewer 2]

I can get them. So one of the things I wanted to kind of elaborate too on these other serial killers and stuff. Did they like. Did you read about anything that they had done and mimic anything they did or go to the place they did it or anything that you would say that you paralleled or did anything?

[Interviewee]

No, nothing specific.

[Interviewer 2]

New ideas. Yours were all new ideas. No other looks like I knew it is. Well, different, same locations. Anything like that?

[Interviewee]

No, I don't think so. Not consciously.

[Interviewer 2]

You know the history about these people, like where they were born, were they. With their position in the family, was their profile.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I know a lot about him. Just nothing special though. Just what anybody could read about him. It's not like I made a hobby out of researching him. But it's just one of those sort of things that anytime I came across anything related to it, I would read it or tune into it or.

[Interviewer 2]

Is that.

[Nissan Ad Speaker 1]

Do you.

[Interviewer 2]

Is that where you put your. You in the same category as some of these people? Especially like you said Bundy, because you kind of have some type.

[Interviewee]

Well, I relate to them, but I don't really.

[Interviewer 2]

Because, you know, like later on and I don't know whether why. What his motives were. Bundy's word later on and while he was in jail wanting to help law enforcement, he was trying to help with the Green River. He was.

[Interviewee]

Did not know that.

[Interviewer 2]

Do you think that's something that serial killers. Do you think that he. There's no place, like, where serial killers talk on the Internet or you can't see someone and see the same traits and those kind of things?

[Interviewee]

Oh, I think that. I think there have been people I've talked to over the years that

[Domino's Pizza Ad Speaker]

I

[Interviewee]

definitely get a vibe off of just because I have a hard time controlling my own. So I pick up on things that people do to misdirect purposely.

[Interviewer 2]

Attention.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, attention from certain areas of their lives or certain things they say. Same thing I do. Type of thing.

[Interviewer 1]

You talked about Matthew before, Is that kind of the guy in the military you were talking about? Is that kind of what you're talking about?

[Interviewee]

Similar. Yeah, he was. He was kind of different in that he had a really rough time as a teenager kind of thing. So I don't know how much of. How much of the things I picked up for him from him were things that he couldn't really control and how much was, like, left over, like, damage time. Because I know he was on heroin and stuff before he got in the army. So I know he went through some pretty heavy stuff before he was even in the Army. So on those aspects of his life, I couldn't really relate to him. But there were other things we talked about that I definitely. There was a point where I felt like I really shouldn't hang out with him anymore just because I was afraid certain things might come up and

[Karen Kilgariff]

so

[Interviewer 2]

he had something in common.

[Interviewee]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Was he around your age?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I think so.

[Interviewer 1]

Do you know where he was from? You mentioned he came from kind of a bad background.

[Interviewee]

I think he was from Ohio.

[Interviewer 1]

Was he still in when you got out?

[Interviewee]

He got out either right after I did or before slightly before. He didn't realize.

[Interviewer 1]

Ever hear what happened to him?

[Interviewee]

Last I talked to him, he was working for telemarketing place in Cleveland, I

[Interviewer 1]

think, just back in Ohio and stay out of trouble or did he. You know, I mean, obviously he's not gonna tell you.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, we had a pretty short conversation over the phone. There was a time. There was just for a minute. I was. I think it was shortly after I discovered the Internet I did some searches and found some people that I had known in the military, kind of more out of a curiosity thing than to reconnect with them. And I called a few of them and we talked. But like I say, I was never really close with any of them when I was in the army, so. And most of them, it seemed like they had kind of gone downhill after they got out of the army. I think there were a couple that had dishonorable or less than honorable discharges and stuff like that. So.

[Interviewer 1]

Do you know if his was.

[Interviewee]

I don't know if his wasn't. I think his was honorable, but I don't know for sure.

[Interviewer 1]

So just more small talk kind of stuff. Nothing?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, when I talked to him, he was. Neither of us were really social. It's not like. I mean, I'm sure if he had we'd ended up in the same state, we probably would have stayed friends. But it wasn't like we were going to have a long term friendship relationship, long distance type of thing.

[Interviewer 2]

And I'm sure we asked you this before, why the army instead of any of the other armed forces? Was there a reason or just.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, I just did what I wanted to do. That's what I'd always read about was like World War II, Vietnam, army stories,

[Interviewer 2]

guys on the ground.

[Interviewee]

Right. That was the kind of thing that appealed to me. Backwoods survival type stuff.

[Interviewer 1]

Computers. You mentioned when computers first came out, you started doing searches and just wanted to see what was up with the military guys. When you would. You talked before with us about. There were a couple times that you would go on your computer and do a search just to see if a body had been found or I don't know, arson or bank robbery or whatever it is when you were doing it. How would you. How would you do that? I mean, did you know names of everybody or would you do just Google search a town and. Or how would you do it?

[Interviewee]

I was.

[Kristen Davis]

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[Nissan Ad Speaker 1]

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[Bluff (Alternate)]

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[Interviewee]

With the exception of the computer that you guys got from Kimberly's house, I generally wouldn't do it on the home computers. I had another computer that I did use for a while, but for the most part it was a computer that I was planning on having around for a while. I would never do research. The searches I did do were usually pretty generic. I would type in an area or a newspaper of an area and type in a keyword. I would never type in a specific

[Interviewer 1]

name, the name of the newspaper from the area.

[Interviewer 2]

Like if I would do Burlington Press, right?

[Interviewee]

Yeah. I would do a search of news from an area, I guess and then pull up either a newspaper or news channel, online news, type in a keyword of something and just scroll down the different stories. So I found the one I was looking for. If I was doing it from an anonymous computer like an airport or a library or something I would do. I would just type in what I wanted.

[Nissan Ad Speaker 3]

Right.

[Interviewee]

Bring it up.

[Interviewer 1]

Did you know the names? Did you remember the names of most of the people?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, well, yeah, on the major things. Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Okay.

[Interviewer 2]

And so I know we talked to. You said that when you did these burglaries and stuff, you would take jewelry and those kind of things. Did you bring that kind of stuff back with you and give it to Kimberly or. I mean, how did you. What did you do with it?

[Interviewee]

No, I usually would bury it.

[Interviewer 2]

Is that so that you could, I mean did you then dig it up later to sell it or just to possess it?

[Interviewee]

It's just more to have it nowhere is type of thing.

[Interviewer 2]

Because you said you brought the stuff from the Alito fire home.

[Interviewee]

And. Oh, yeah, yeah, there was a little. Yeah, there was a little bit of jewelry down there. I guess that wasn't really a burglary, per se. That was just. I mean, I had found that house, but I was running out of time,

[Interviewer 2]

so

[Interviewee]

I guess I just figured, Take a look inside and burn it. I don't know.

[Interviewer 2]

Take a look inside. But you said you were in there a couple hours looking around.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, but I had found it before. I mean, I knew it was there before. I don't remember how many days before I found it, but I knew it was there, and I knew it was an empty house.

[Interviewer 1]

You've talked before about how. I think even with the couriers, you talked about how afterwards, emotionally, for you, there's a high for a while, and then eventually you kind of come back down from that high. Using the couriers as an example, you came back to Alaska on that high. Once the high goes away, is it just. Can you just think about what happened and that's enough to kind of just relive it and work through it again, or. You told us before, you don't keep trophies. You don't do that kind of stuff. But are there things that you do have or that you do keep that aren't really necessarily trophies, but that you use for. That you use as a reminder, you use just to have. Because you said you like to possess things, you like to keep things.

[Interviewee]

Yeah, That's not that. I never. It's not that I didn't want to take trophies or have things. I was just concerned about having them.

[Interviewer 1]

Sure.

[Interviewer 2]

But.

[Interviewee]

So, yeah, for the most part, it's just. All the stuff's just in my head.

[Interviewer 1]

But there's things you could take that wouldn't. That I can think of. There wouldn't be no way that law enforcement would be really hard for us to connect it back. Were there times that you did take things that you thought were safe or. For the most part, no.

[Interviewee]

The things I would have been interested in taking wouldn't have been safe, put it that way.

[Interviewer 1]

Okay.

[Interviewer 2]

But there are things you took that technically you still have because they're in caches. If there's guns or something that you took from a burglary and got them in a cache somewhere, then I'm just saying, technically, you still possess them, and they're just not on you at your house or on you or whatever. Except for the Alito stuff. What was different about that? Bringing that stuff home?

[Interviewee]

Actually, I was supposed to have taken that back down with me. The second time I just forgot because I was gonna stash it the same time I did those guns. And I never got around to the guns either. So I was planning to stash them there the first time.

[Interviewer 2]

Forgot where you had them or.

[Interviewee]

No, I just didn't find good place and decided I didn't want to. Didn't want to have them that far south anyway. Cuz I wasn't planning on going back to Texas again, so.

[Interviewer 2]

Don't like Texas?

[Interviewee]

No, I wasn't a big fan of Texas really. I've been in other states. I like it better.

[Interviewer 2]

People are too nosy.

[Interviewee]

Too many guns and too many. Too many gates and fences in Texas. Definitely too many video cameras.

[Interviewer 2]

On the one on the prostitutes, on prostitution, was there a preference on gender? Always. Did you have. Did you see male prostitutes? No, I didn't.

[Interviewee]

Well, no

[Interviewer 2]

kind of male prostitutes.

[Interviewee]

I'm gonna say you're getting really fuzzy on your definitions there.

[Interviewer 2]

I forgot how somatic you could be half male.

[Interviewer 1]

That's one way to say it. Are you thinking or are you just. You're done with that?

[Interviewee]

No, for the most part it was female prostitutes.

[Interviewer 2]

Sounds like a yes to me. The most part, yeah.

[Interviewee]

I really understood the whole male prostitute thing. Well, I guess. No, I guess I do understand. It was never an issue for me at all. Oh,

[Interviewer 1]

What's this mark for? Did you ever do like the casual encounter thing on you think you got a shock?

[Interviewer 2]

Are you in shock? Are you worried about shockingness? No, just what else?

[Interviewee]

No, I imagine you guys aren't shockable at this point. No, it's like male. Like I say, I never really understood the whole male prostitutes thing. I don't know if you're. I guess if you're looking for something really anonymous and you're concerned about getting caught with a man, or if you're a really ugly guy, I guess you might have to pay another guy to have sex with you. But for the most part, it's not that hard to find a guy to hook up with pretty casually. Whereas if you have specific ideas in mind and you're you want a woman, you have to pay for it. Which is fine. It's just the way it is though.

[Interviewer 1]

Did you say the whole Craigslist casual encounter thing? Is that something that you ever did? You mentioned the casual hookup.

[Interviewee]

No. Well, no, I never really did that.

[Interviewer 1]

Any other questions for us? Concerns? Well, other than the obvious one that we don't have an answer for. As we continue to go through stuff, the computers and to see other stuff kind of like today just things come up that we don't have all the answers for. Is this alright if we just do this kind of meeting for that kind of stuff?

[Interviewee]

Yeah, kind of.

[Interviewer 1]

The little. The little key. Not none of the high pressure stuff. This works. Yeah.

[Interviewee]

What's high pressure?

[Interviewer 1]

Maybe it's bad choice of words.

[Interviewee]

No, it's just funny. Yeah, whatever. I don't really know what.

[Interviewer 1]

But not getting into all the other stuff. I mean like when we met the other day it was.

[Interviewee]

Oh, you. You're talking about wanting specific names and dates. Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Obviously we'll take it if you're willing to give it to us.

[Interviewee]

Know what I'm saying too.

[Interviewer 1]

So. Okay. I think we don't.

[Interviewer 2]

If you don't have anything else, we'll get ready to take you back home.

[Interviewee]

You be skippy.

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[Interviewee]

Big transfer news today.

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[Interviewer 2]

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[Interviewer 2]

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