October 22, 2012: Part 1

Summary

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True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode: "October 22, 2012: Part 1"

Host: Josh Hallmark
Date: May 18, 2026
Episode Focus: FBI interrogation of Israel Keyes on crimes beyond the Samantha Koenig case

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the October 22, 2012, FBI interview with serial killer Israel Keyes. The interrogation, presented mostly via direct transcripts, reveals the ongoing negotiations and psychological maneuvers between Keyes and investigators as they attempt to elicit information regarding his other crimes and missing victims. Tension centers around Keyes's willingness to cooperate, questions of media publicity, and the complexities of managing information, all within his ongoing effort to maintain control in an environment where his freedom is gone.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Approach and Interview Setting

Timestamps: 02:03 – 04:00

• Participants: Officer Bell, multiple FBI agents (including Deborah Feldman), U.S. Attorneys Frank Russo and Kevin Feldis.
• Focus: The interview is prefaced with clear advisement of rights, emphasizing Keyes’s ability to have standby counsel and the intent to discuss “other crimes,” not Samantha Koenig.
• Notable exchange:
  • FBI Agent: “We are here only to talk about other crimes. We're not here to talk about Samantha Koenig.” (03:09)

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2. Negotiating Cooperation: Involvement & Control

Timestamps: 04:09 – 11:11

• Tech Tools: FBI agents describe plans to facilitate live video feeds, using Google Maps overlays and GPS, so Keyes could direct search and recovery efforts remotely—a unique concession meant to keep him involved and incentivized.
• Keyes’s demands: He insists on being included for any information he gives, stating, “I'm going to expect that for any information that I give you...I'm still entitled to that.” (07:37)
• Pace of progress:
  • Keyes: Expresses disenchantment and frustration at slow bureaucratic progress.
  • FBI: Acknowledges earlier delays, promising increased efficiency if Keyes participates more consistently.

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3. Publicity Dilemma: Maximum vs. Minimum Exposure

Timestamps: 11:20 – 25:13

• Keyes’s internal conflict: Weighs benefits and risks between seeking maximum publicity or keeping the information quiet.
• Quote:
  • “There's an aspect of this to where I would prefer to keep it all, minimum publicity. But to a certain extent it's already too late to do that.” (11:20)
• Concerns: Impact on his family, unknowns about how much the public will learn, and loss of control once he's shared information.
• FBI: Stress the limits of what they can control, reiterate their attempts at discretion (“we've been pretty successful about that...some of this is out of our control,” (19:32)).
• Notable moment: Keyes candidly admits he’s adjusting to jail life and is less “overwhelmed” now.

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4. Keyes's Motives for Cooperation

Timestamps: 25:13 – 38:35

• Control and leverage: Keyes emphasizes wanting control over both the process and the information he provides, sometimes threatening to slow-walk or withhold details unless his interests are met.
• Quote:
  • “If you let me, to an extent keep control of the situation, then you're going to get what you want, essentially. And, you know, whether or not I get what I want is not really so much the issue anymore.” (33:50)
• FBI pressure: Agents and prosecutors admit to facing scrutiny from superiors due to lack of visible progress (“We've been coming over and getting pressure for the lack of progress.” (37:01)).

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5. Specific Case: Deborah Feldman

Timestamps: 62:03 – 75:21

• Focus: FBI zeroes in on the case of Deborah Feldman, whose name appears in searches on Keyes’s computer; New Jersey and the FBI are increasing pressure.
• Keyes’s responses:
  • Categorically denies responsibility:
    • “I didn't kill her.” (69:12)*
    • “No, I didn't kill her. Okay.” (69:12)
  • Admits researching her case: “Probably because I looked it up. I can't imagine why Kimberly would.” (66:13)
  • Remains cagey about additional knowledge, repeatedly refusing to discuss further without a deal (“I'm not talking about any more specific cases until we get some kind of deal hammered out.” (67:56)).
  • Admits there are things he hasn’t shared, but frames omissions as deliberate, not direct lies.

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6. Keyes on Serial Killers and Self-Reflection

Timestamps: 77:44 – 84:54

• Reading habits:
  • Keyes expresses interest in historical serial killers, notably H.H. Holmes.
    • “Holmes was one of them...Turn of the century 19, where he had a castle, castle dungeon combination in, I think it was Chicago.” (79:14–80:31)
  • Calls BTK “a hack” for ultimately seeking publicity rather than continuing offending:
    • “He was a hack. He got away with it for a long time. That was the most disappointing thing about him is that he never had to get caught. He just got bored.” (82:38)
• Regret and self-control:
  • “My only regret is that I tried to have as much self control as I did.” (84:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Control & Bargaining:
  • “I can make it so that you would force you. I could force you to charge me for each individual one. I can give you enough information to get me, but not to get me.” – Israel Keyes (25:42)
• On Publicity:
  • “I could make it as erratic as I wanted. That's the whole thing...I could get a lot of airtime out of this if I wanted to.” – Israel Keyes (46:22)
• On Self-Interest:
  • “If I'm going to be in this situation, then I should use, you know, what information I have as entertainment. For me, that's where the maximum publicity issue comes in.” – Israel Keyes (22:12)
• On Omission vs. Lying:
  • “If I choose not to talk about something that's not the same as giving a misleading answer that could be construed as a lie...It was more of an issue of do I leave it out? Do I talk about it at all?” – Israel Keyes (72:22)
• On Regret:
  • “My only regret is that I tried to have as much self control as I did.” – Israel Keyes (84:28)
• On BTK:
  • “He was a hack. He got away with it for a long time...He was also pretty unusual in that he was able to stop for a number of years.” – Israel Keyes (82:38)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Interview room introduction, rights explained: 02:03 – 04:00
• FBI pitches live video feed technology: 04:52 – 07:20
• Keyes lays out publicity dilemma: 11:20 – 13:24
• Keyes on his family’s awareness: 13:39 – 15:26
• Deborah Feldman line of questioning: 62:03 – 75:21
• Keyes on serial killer literature: 77:44 – 84:54
• Keyes self-reflection on control and regret: 84:00 – 84:54

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Tone and Language

The tone fluctuates between clinical negotiation, manipulation, and darkly philosophical musings by Keyes. The FBI agents strive for control and patience, but also reveal frustrations, professional pressure, and candid admissions of process limitations. Keyes is measured, detached, at times arrogant; he’s preoccupied with his leverage, the game-like nature of information barter, and control over the narrative—even as he insists that outcome matters less to him than the process.

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Summary Takeaways

• The episode provides a rarely-heard, granular look at the mind games, logistical haggling, and psychological sparring between investigators and a prolific serial killer.
• Keyes’s statements offer chilling insight into his lack of remorse, fascination with other killers, and calculated use of information as a tool for personal agency.
• The FBI, despite their experience, are repeatedly challenged by Keyes’s need for control and ability to slow down or obscure their investigations based on his personal calculus.
• The Deborah Feldman case is highlighted as a key ongoing thread, with Keyes neither fully cooperating nor outright lying, but adeptly evading final responsibility.

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Next: Part 2 of this interview will air Thursday, May 20, 2026.

Transcript

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[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

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[True Crime Bullshit Host]

Hey everyone. While True Crime Bullshit is on hiatus, we'll be popping in sporadically to share with you some of Keys's FBI interviews, some NamUs 45 episodes and some bonus content. True Crime Bullshit will be back with season eight on October 5th. And today I'm sharing with you keys October 22nd FBI interview. We'll be back on Thursday with the second part of this interview. Stay tuned after this episode to find out where we're going on our next Trova trip this November. This is a studio both and production.

[Officer Bell]

It's officer bell, apd. I'm going on tape. It is 8:47 by my watch. On the 22nd of october, interview with israel keys. Preamble in the rooms. Mb sa, jolene godin, usa's frank russo and kevin feldis.

[Israel Keyes]

You can say that.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right, well, today you're gonna spice it up for us, right?

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

All right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

You want to make it a good day? Should we call it an interesting day or a boring day? What do you think?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right, well, let's do the. We'll do the advisement.

[Israel Keyes]

All right.

[Officer Bell]

You have the right to remain silent. You understand that?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yep.

[Officer Bell]

Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law. Do you understand that?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yep.

[Officer Bell]

You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you're being questioned. You understand that?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Officer Bell]

If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before and during any questioning, if you wish. You understand that?

[Israel Keyes]

Yes.

[Officer Bell]

You can decide at any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that?

[Israel Keyes]

Yes.

[Officer Bell]

And we are here only to talk about other crimes. We're not here to talk about Samantha Koenig. You have standby counsel at least. Rich Gertner, Jackie Welch and Mark, would you like any of those present with you today? No.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right. Israel, as you know, the court also said if at any time you want standby counsel present. Right. Just let us know.

[Israel Keyes]

Okay?

[Officer Bell]

Right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

And if for any reason, you want the court to appoint a different attorney to represent you, you let us know that as well.

[Israel Keyes]

Okay?

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right. We're gonna brought you over here to talk to you about other crimes, things separate from the Samantha Koenig investigation. You understand?

[Israel Keyes]

Yes.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right. Well, I think that covers the introductions and the warnings. Is there anything that you wanted to ask about those before we started?

[Israel Keyes]

No.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Okay, good. Well, these guys told me they talked to you a couple weeks ago. Was it, what, about end of September?

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Last time they got together. And I know there's a couple things that they wanted update you on at some point today, but when we met last. When they met with you last time, they came back and told Frank and I about a couple of things just that you were thinking about. So help me remember what some of the questions were. One of them was, you know, getting involved a little bit and not being shut out if you give us information. Not being shut out from that. Right. Kind of being involved. And my reaction to that was that that's not a problem.

[Israel Keyes]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Basically, that can be done. And I think these guys have also checked that out with your bosses.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Yeah, we did. I talked to our. We have what are called tech agents, and those are the guys that do all the techie kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. And basically what they are working on and currently working on, so that when we get to a point when we can do this, it can be ready to go, and it can be ready to go pretty quickly, twofold. So we had talked about the piece about having you help us find places, because that in and of itself is going to be potentially pretty difficult to do in some situations. So having a live feed with a camera at a location. So if you tell. We look at Google Maps and you say you know, I think it's in this area. We can send folks out there with a camera, with a live feed that we can see back here on the camera with that. That camera will also have a GPS on it. So you're going to be able to see. You'll essentially have two screens. You can see Google Maps overhead to see, like, if we're along a river or if we're next, wherever we're at, you can see overhead where they are. So you can look at landmarks as well as actually seeing what the live feed is as they're walking. And you can say, no, go right, go left. One of the things that. That's the thing that the tech guy is working on. And it'll depend. All the tech stuff that he's doing, depending on the more remote the area it is, depends on how it happens, whether it happens via satellite or whether it happens using the cell towers or something like that. So he's working.

[Officer Bell]

One of the things he said that's important when we get to this point in time, locations of whether we're going to be able to use satellite or whether it's going to have to be cell reception only or if there's cell reception even where it's at.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

So he's working on both. And they're. I mean, they'll be ready to go, okay, whenever. When we get to that point. Any questions about that? That's kind of what we were talking about in terms of the live feed. And then, you know, we had talked about also expanding beyond that once we're actually doing some of the things, digging or whatever. And that's something that we can also do. You know, we can. I don't know, realistically, live feed is going to be difficult because those have been over 18 hours kind of a thing. So you'd be sitting here for a long time. So we can work that piece out in terms of video piece, but.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So what do you think of that?

[Israel Keyes]

Sounds good.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All right, so we'll ask them to continue to roll with that. And my reaction was, let's make it happen. We can do that, right?

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah. The only, the only issue being, I mean, that's great. That's a given at this point. I'm going to expect that for any information that I give you, Because essentially, regardless of whether I give you the information and I get to be a part of, see what happened with the investigation now or later, I'm still entitled to that. But the issue right now is. What else I can use this information for as far as my situation. My current situation. That's the tricky part because, you know, all this stuff takes a lot more time than anticipated.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, what we're. And what I've told you for months and months is, you know, we can make these other things move quickly. And, you know, we've gotten better at what we're doing since we first started talking to you. Right. The FBI has gotten much more geared up than we were in the summer. They've got, as we said, they've got a whole team of people ready to roll on things and follow up on things, and they're doing that anyway. But you can speed that along. Right. So timing has always been one of your concerns of we've been keeping in mind. And we can move a lot more quickly than you think, but that's up to you. And I've told you that before. If we don't, you know, if we meet every two months, it's going to go slowly. If we meet every week, it's going to go fast. So we're doing better than we did. And we'll admit that we were slower than we wanted to be in the beginning, but. So what's your reaction to that?

[Israel Keyes]

Like I say, my biggest concern right now is with current ongoing issues. It's not with any of these potential issues. I guess you could say I've become somewhat disenchanted with this whole process. And. Even though, you know, I think it's inevitable that we resolve all the issues that I can. I'm a little more hesitant now than I was in the beginning to talk about things because I didn't have. I feel like I talked about some things without thinking through possible outcomes that that information could be used for. And just being well, overwhelmed at the time with the whole situation from my end, not really overwhelmed anymore. Kind of settled into the good life of jail.

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[FBI Agent Interviewer]

not too boring for you?

[Israel Keyes]

Mandatory boredom?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, that's one area where we might be able to help you with as we move along with some of these things. At least we're all working on something.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, but that. I'm still concerned about the long term. From my perspective.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What's your concern? Tell me what your concern is.

[Israel Keyes]

My concern is. It's twofold, really. There's two different ways it can go. I can go for maximum publicity with. With the information that I have, or I can go try and go for minimum publicity. And I'm including, you know, all the issues in that statement. My issue right now is I don't know which way it's gonna go. There's an aspect of this to where I would prefer to keep it all, minimum publicity. But to a certain extent it's already too late to do that. Granted, lately there hasn't been much publicity, which has been good. It's given me some time to consider that option. But that being said, not all these issues are resolved yet, so I don't know how much publicity there's going to be filled. So it would be premature for me to give out any more information with the hope of keeping at minimum publicity if in the end result there's going to be certain other issues that come out anyway.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Sounds like you're undecided about this.

[Israel Keyes]

I am. Just because of a personal conflict I have with, you know, from my own personal perspective, I don't mind the publicity, but, you know, there's other factors involved.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Too concerned about.

[Israel Keyes]

Right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Anyone. Anyone other than her that you're concerned about?

[Israel Keyes]

Not as much anymore. But yeah, there's. There are some peripheral concerns, you know,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What about your family? They pretty much know what's going on. Is this going to come as a shock to them or do they already kind of know that?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know. Initially I was thinking being in their position, they're going to. Even as technologically backwards as some portions of my family are, eventually they would come to terms with the reality of me being in the situation I'm in and they would seek out that information for themselves and kind of draw their own conclusions. Even though the press releases have been limited, there's still enough information in them to deduct and draw some conclusions that, you know, this stuff didn't come out of thin air kind of thing.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So

[Israel Keyes]

that's another issue that I have right now is because I don't know, I know some of them are. Certain people who have known me are still definitely in denial about the whole thing.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

You try to set them straight about

[Israel Keyes]

your life of crime. That's the issue that's confused confusion I have right now because I've never told any of them since this whole thing started that, oh, I'm innocent. I haven't come out and said, oh, I did this and this. I have mostly kept my statements about the whole situation very vague under the guise of, well, I can't say anything, but at the same time, you know, kind of draw your own conclusions sort of thing.

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[Israel Keyes]

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[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, when it comes to these other criminal activity, obviously, I mean we know about the couriers and we know a lot of things. Is there something that we can do to facilitate you communicating with your family or if that's important to you, for them to know before it hits the papers?

[Israel Keyes]

There may come a time shortly when, when I have to make a decision on which route I'm going to go, whether I go for maximum publicity or minimum publicity. And of course if I come to the conclusion that I'm going for maximum publicity, then I'm going to tell them about it first. In which case there are possibly some

[Officer Bell]

things that could be done to arrange that as facilitated.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Correct? What would Cause you to go the maximum publicity route.

[Israel Keyes]

If I were to come to the realization that. Well, a couple different things. For one, if I was to come to the realization that minimum publicity wasn't going to be an option, I think you all know me well enough to know that I'm not, as far as me personally, I'm not that conflicted about the whole situation. Therefore, all that remains in my mind from my perspective, is to see which way it plays out.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah, no, that's an interesting question. I mean, I think part of us, all of us know that the cow has left the barn, you know, long ago. Right. You know, to some extent, no matter what any of us do, you know, it's already out there. So there is that consideration. Obviously, we offer to do things in certain ways to, to limit what was in. I think in a large extent, we've been pretty successful about that. But a lot of some of this is out of our control. Right.

[Israel Keyes]

And I understand that now, that's the biggest issue that I was naive on initially is what the options were for limiting the amount of information that gets out. I'm a little more. A little better informed at this point as to what's ultimately going to be known by the general public. And I'm also, you know, a little more adapted to my current living situation, so become a little more realistic about, well, if this is the way it's going to be, then I should. I'm the one in jail, so I should use whatever I have to benefit my own situation. The bottom line is now that I'm in jail, everybody on the outside, regardless of how traumatic this may be for them, it's essentially over.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

We know you don't. I mean, you've told us that this is not a concern of yours, but it's not over for a whole bunch of others.

[Israel Keyes]

I'm just saying, as far as physical threat is concerned, it's over. The damage is done. Whatever damage is done is already done.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

How does it impact your cooperation on other crimes, whether that's, you decide, maximum

[Israel Keyes]

publicity or minimum publicity?

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

I mean, if what maximum publicity, how would you proceed in continuing to give us information as opposed to. If it was minimum publicity? So we can understand that.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, that hinges on another issue for

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

me,

[Israel Keyes]

which is essentially how long am I willing to sit in jail? Regardless of how much entertainment value I get out of any of this,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

My

[Israel Keyes]

perspective on sitting in jail definitely hasn't really changed. I guess you could say I haven't. Discovered a new clique of friends in jail. Don't expect That I will anytime soon. So I don't really see a long term interest in survival living there. That being said, I'm more realistic about the situation being that it is. They watch me like a hawk. They're gonna keep me, you know, my own separate indefinitely probably. So, you know, that hinges directly on the realization that if I'm going to be in this situation, then I should use, you know, what information I have as entertainment. For me, that's where the maximum publicity issue comes in.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, you know that for us this is obviously not entertainment. We have no interest in entertainment. I know, I say that I understand that you have expressed before today that just sitting in jail for you, there's nothing to that, there's no entertainment. But if you want to be involved in something, meaning helping us move forward on one or more of these investigations, we're willing to offer you to. And that's unusual and unprecedented and all that. And we're willing to do that as a compromise. Obviously, you know, there's limits, but we can do that.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, right, yeah. There are certain aspects of any investigations from this point that I would be interested. I don't want to sit in jail and wait to be charged with them. I'd rather. If I'm going to give the information, I'd rather. It's not like I don't know what happened. It's not like there's any mystery in it for me. But at the same time it's interesting to me because it's all these things, once I've done them, they become, you know, that's it. It's like the taboo, that's the end of it. It's not like I get to go back and you know, whatever I have residual from those things that happen, things that I did, they're all in my head. So, you know, and as far as being unprecedented, that's not really true either because the reality is unless I'm fairly close involved, we're not even going to be able to find.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Oh yeah, I mean, unprecedented that we be, you know, showing you video feeds

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

and things like that, how we would be doing it.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

That doesn't happen.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, I can see that. But at the same time, you know, like I say, eventually I would get to see those things anyway if this were to play out, if two were able to.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I mean, if you get charged with an individual crime, eventually, you know, but yeah, as far as I understood it, you have no interest in being charged with all these crimes.

[Israel Keyes]

And so that's not to say that I. I'M just saying it's depending on the way I give you the information. I could make it so that you would force you. I could force you to charge me for each individual one. I can give you enough information to get me, but not to get me. So, you know, what we're talking about is, you know, essentially the same side of the same coin. Different sides of the same coin. Anyway, I understand what you're saying and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to work with me, but at the same time, you have to see it from my perspective where, yeah, I know what I could say, especially with 2020 hindsight at this point, to get. To get that, you know, but my concern is with other issues right now.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What other issues?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, the current crimes that I'm charged with.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, I mean, as weird as it sounds, it does sound weird to us. I mean, we are trying to see it from your perspective in approaching it with this and saying, you know, hey, we can do these things and work together on them.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, well, I know and I understand the reason. I understand from your perspective, this was all wrapped up neatly with the bow on it. Make your lives a lot easier, I would say. I'm sorry, but I'm not really that nice of the guys.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But we always ask you, string with

[Israel Keyes]

us

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

one thing in terms of timing, just to keep this in mind, whatever you decide, however you decide this is going to play out in the end, the piece about you being part of it and us going out and doing what we have to do. You give us information, we go out, we look for bodies or whatever, however many we end up looking for, however much information you give us, we have the benefit of having people all over the place. So the timing piece is somewhat. Obviously, it's totally up to you with that, but we have the benefit of having people all over the place so things can be happening at the same time. It's not like, you know, we have to do. It's just going to be the same team going to this location. You got to wait till they're done and then they're going to fly to here and then they're going to fly to there. So just keep that in mind when you're thinking about timing, is that it can. It can happen quickly if you want it to happen quickly.

[True Crime Bullshit Host]

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[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All?

[Starbucks Advertiser]

Summer moves like a great jam session. You start with one idea, one direction, and then it shifts. Somebody calls. Energy changes. You take a detour. That's the beauty of it. For me, summer's always been about discovering new sounds, new places, new people, new ideas. You start one place, end up somewhere completely different, and somehow that's exactly where you're supposed to be. I've always had my spots along the way. Starbucks has been one of those constants. Before a session, on the way to a gig, and between conversations that turn into something bigger than you expected. It's part of that movement, part of that rhythm. The summer's got its own soundtrack, too. You can almost hear it without trying. Life's happening all around you. That feeling of staying open to whatever's next. Sometimes it's the smallest things that lock you into that moment. What you're holding, what you're sipping. The new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango pineapple flavored pearls. Cold, colorful, alive. Feels like something made for the day that's still unfolding. And that's the thing. Sometimes one small stop changes the whole mood of your day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks.

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[Israel Keyes]

is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[True Crime Bullshit Host]

Long shot.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So what are you thinking about that way?

[Israel Keyes]

I feel like I've pretty much laid out my current perspective at this point. Yeah, I don't.

[Officer Bell]

I don't know.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know. I guess, Yeah. There's just a lot of information I've got recently that I should have expected. I should have seen it coming. I know enough about bureaucracy and different aspects. Not specifically this aspect of the federal government, but other aspects. I should have known that wasn't going to be all smooth sailing matter speaking. But I didn't expect. There are some things that I didn't anticipate that are slowing things down or that could potentially slow things down, complicate matters. Yeah, so that's what I'm trying to come to terms with now as far as. Basically what I'm talking about is timelines. How much of a timeline am I willing to deal with,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

love? That's up to you, right? We sat here with flip charts months and months ago. We can do this. We'll bring them back. They're pretty good to know because we were. This is what Israel wanted. This is what we were given. Israel. And you know, we've gotten. Now we've gotten where?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, if it was that easy to go through months and months with a flip chart, well.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But I could get out the notes of where I said, you know, we got plan A and plan B. You know, Plan A is basically where we've been just sitting here twiddling our thumbs for months now instead of out there moving forward.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't think, I know that nothing's happened recently, but I don't really feel like we're twiddling our thumbs anymore because I think that we have an understanding. I think you know enough about me now to know where I'm coming from on all these issues. And even though, like I say in the beginning, I reacted pretty unpredictably, for me, out of character, for me, it was because of situations that I felt were spinning out of control. And my whole issue with this is to keep control of it. If you let me, to an extent keep control of the situation, then you're going to get what you want, essentially. And, you know, whether or not I get what I want is not really so much the issue anymore. It's. It's what happens in the interim for me, you know, So I don't. I don't. You know, even though we haven't been able to go out and solve any more crimes together recently, we. You understand my perspective as to why that is and why things are at a standstill right now.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

I think. I think it's. You know, we understand that, and I think we've been sort of trying to work on keeping control sort of in the room, so to speak. I mean, the whole Vermont thing has, you know, been calmed down quite a bit. I mean, I was in Vermont last week, and, you know, I met with all the federal prosecutors, the state prosecutors, the family, you know, with that in mind, with the idea of, you know, let's just kind of, you know, hang with us here. You know, we're kind of moving to a place where I think, you know, we all get what we want as long as it doesn't, you know, spin out of control. And so, you know, I think I was pretty successful in trying to convey that message to, you know, most of those people. And, I mean, some of the prosecutors there, I mean, one of them said right out, said, I think this guy's jerking you around. And that's like, an impression that a lot of, like, you know, the bosses have. Oh, he's jerking you around, you know, and, you know, not having sat here and listened to you, I understand that's their perspective.

[Israel Keyes]

And our.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

What we've been trying to do is try to talk them out of that. One of the things that was persuasive to them is the fact that you had met, you know, just two or three weeks ago. I told him, look, you know, he's still sort of amenable to this because he met a few weeks ago and just, you know, seemed good with the idea of continuing to provide information, in fact, making plans for this sort of thing. So I think that little bit helped us, and it helps us keep control, and it helps you keep control. And it may not be as fast as we like or as fast as you like, but, you know, keeping those lines of communication open and kind of showing some progress in our investigation of other crimes helps us keep control.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, no, I. I can see that.

[Officer Bell]

And we've been telling you that all along that we've been coming over and getting pressure for the lack of progress. Like you said, to use your word, stall. That's why things have stalled, and that's the way our bosses are seeing it, too.

[Israel Keyes]

Stalled. Yeah, I didn't. I had just assumed at this point that Vermont wasn't even really an issue anymore. I Figured they were kind of just sitting on their hands waiting to see what happens with the feds.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

But I enjoyed the 20 hour flight out there to try to.

[Israel Keyes]

It's a nice place, right?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Huh.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

Stayed in Essex, right around the corner from the Handy Suites.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I don't think you said a non issue. Nothing is a non issue.

[Israel Keyes]

Right, Right. Yeah, I've kind of an unrealistic perspective on that sort of thing. So that's what I was assuming at this point, but I guess I shouldn't have assumed that.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, nobody's forgotten about it for a while.

[Israel Keyes]

Oh, I didn't think they forgot.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

I just least of all the family members. I mean that, you know, sort of trying to, you know, they want to see what's going to happen here and I was trying to out there to tell them to, you know, sort of give it time, trust us, you know, we're making progress and you know, I think, I think we can make progress. I think we can continue to sort of hold them off and just sort of satisfy them just, you know, with pieces of information. These meetings help?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, I mean, yeah, if they help on paper, that's all fine and grand. You know, like I say, that doesn't really change the fact we haven't, I mean, from my perspective, we haven't really accomplished anything

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

from their perspective, you know, either. I think that they're like, well, what kind of information, what other, you know, stuff has he told you? And I basically have to say, well, you know, look, there's some details I think he talked about some.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Nothing yet, but he will. Yeah. Is that the way we're.

[Israel Keyes]

I could see where they would be skeptical of. But you know, like you say, they don't have our perspective on it. That whole Vermont thing turned out differently than even I expected it to.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Sure, we've talked about that. We know how to do things differently the next time. Right, but we told you that back this summer. Now it's October 22nd and frankly the ground is freezing in Israel. So if you want to be involved and help us investigate anything. It was 18 degrees out yesterday in Anchorage and I don't think I've been

[Israel Keyes]

in Alaska, Logan, though I just assumed it's summer everywhere but here.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, we were both just back east and it's getting cold there too, so we don't have a lot of time to play with. And it's a long cold winter as they say, and without any movement there wouldn't be anything we could do anyway.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, Be that as it may, from that perspective, nothing else that I'm involved in right now is weather dependent.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So what do you mean?

[Israel Keyes]

Except temperature's the same in the temperature, Right? Yeah,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, I get that your temperature is the same, but, you know, everything's going, keep going forward, everybody else.

[Officer Bell]

And your patience is probably getting better with your situation from the ear in. But everybody else's patience is crumping thin. Our bosses, at least, and pressuring us for progress.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Yeah, I was just gonna say, do you want to take a break quick? And I realized I'm missing. I didn't bring the right papers over either. Is your coffee cold?

[Israel Keyes]

Ah, that's okay.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Anything else before we. We're gonna take a quick break. I left something in the room that I needed to.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Show you. Okay.

[Israel Keyes]

Still giving you the same food or

[True Crime Bullshit Host]

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[Starbucks Advertiser]

Hey, what up, y'?

[Israel Keyes]

All?

[Starbucks Advertiser]

Summer moves like a great jam session. You start with one idea, one direction, and then it shifts. Somebody calls. Energy changes. You take a detour. That's the beauty of it. For me. Summer's always been about discovery. New sounds, new places, new people, new ideas. You start one place, end up somewhere completely different. And somehow that's exactly where you're supposed to be. I've always had my spots along the way. Starbucks has been one of those constants. Before session, on the way to a gig and between conversations that turn into something bigger than you expected. It's part of that movement, part of that rhythm. And summer's got its own soundtrack too. You can almost hear it without trying. Life's happening all around you. That feeling of staying open to whatever's next. Sometimes it's the smallest things that lock you into that moment. What you're holding, what you're sipping. The new Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango, pineapple flavored pearls. Cold, colorful, alive. Feels like something made for the day that's still unfolding. And that's the thing. Sometimes one small stop changes the whole mood of your day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks.

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[Israel Keyes]

social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[Officer Bell]

Going back on tape re enter it's 9:31 by my watch.

[Israel Keyes]

Sure enough came back yeah.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

That your clothes were fitting a little snug. The cities that they put you in.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So do you get any place to work out in your cell or.

[Israel Keyes]

Oh yeah, I can do jumping jacks or something myself. I guess. Put me outside all my jewelry.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

You're cuffed even when you go outside for yard time.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So you were talking about the maximum publicity versus minimum publicity. What does maximum publicity look like to you? What does that mean to you? Like just you sit down and methodically tell Us what happened, or is there some other, like, dramatic courtrooms that you get ready for?

[Israel Keyes]

I could make it as erratic as I wanted. That's the whole thing.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So what does it mean to you, though, when you say that maximum?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, there's a whole sliding scale. But I mean, like I say, if I decide to go maximum publicity, I think, you know, that from my perspective, from what I know, from the resources I have at my disposal, I could get a lot of airtime out of this if I wanted to.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah, if you want to call the newscasters and, you know, but.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, they'll show up whether I call them or not. But I mean, I'm just saying

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

there

[Israel Keyes]

is that aspect of my. Of the way I think of things, but it's, you know, at this point it's still pretty small because it's not really. Not really my nature, but. And at the same time, it's potential entertainment. So something I have to consider.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

The master of publicity. Right.

[Officer Bell]

Is there something that's going to trigger

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

that or how are you going to decide that?

[Israel Keyes]

That's a good question. I mean, I, you know, there's. There's a lot of factors involved with it and a lot of unknowns still at this point for me, so. And, you know, a lot of things have happened. Not so much talking about the meetings between us, but just the way things have gone in general as far as the way the system works.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Right.

[Israel Keyes]

However you want to put it,

[True Crime Bullshit Host]

we

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

don't want to do anything to jeopardize, obviously, the, you know, whatever progress we're making here. So we're just sort of wondering, if you're going maximum publicity, how's that going to impact our cooperation on other crimes? Or is it.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, it would drag it out for longer. That's the only issue. Whereas the maximum publicity is, you know, it's not a big story unless it goes on for years and years.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

Whereas if it's minimum publicity, you think it would be more expeditious, Wrap everything up?

[Israel Keyes]

I mean, you know, you've got the recordings of the first interview we did together.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So,

[Israel Keyes]

you know, from my perspective, this. No matter how much publicity I got out of this or how much entertainment, relative entertainment value I get, it's all relative compared to the way things used to be. So from my perspective, that's what makes it an unknown. That's why I'm not decided on it on that route, because all other things being equal, you know, if I had my way, that's not the way it would go at all. But I'm not in control of all those other factors. There's just a lot of factors I'm not in control of. So part of it is me being spiteful

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

and. Spiteful about what, though? To whom, for what?

[Israel Keyes]

Doesn't matter. The point is, you know, if I feel like I'm not being taken seriously or if things aren't going my way, then that's my reaction to it. That's the only reaction I have at

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

this point is to.

[Israel Keyes]

Is to do the maximum publicity, to use it to make a point. And I mean, there is, I, you know, there is a point I could make out of it and I don't get it.

[Officer Bell]

What point we have.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I don't get it.

[Israel Keyes]

I'm just saying if I wanted to make a point, using my case

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

as

[Israel Keyes]

an example, whether, you know, the media would potentially give me a pretty big soapbox to make that point to people, make a point that, you know, this is the system and this is the way it works, regardless.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Like a political point about, oh, the system doesn't work, we'll call it political.

[Israel Keyes]

To me it's pretty personal, but yeah, I got it.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But for other people, you gotta understand, just like you don't care about those people, they don't look at Israel and say, hey, we really value is opinion. Right?

[Israel Keyes]

Exactly. Well, that's what the entertainment factor comes

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

from, a larger political point about, you know, you think the system works too slow or whatever it is.

[Israel Keyes]

Is that what I mean? Or there's maybe not enough options or something.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What other option would you have?

[Israel Keyes]

Hypothetical. Yeah, I'm not going to talk about hypothetical options.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I thought you brought it up.

[Officer Bell]

You said hypothesis.

[Israel Keyes]

No, not, not. No, I mean, it's. Of course I have all kinds of hypothetical options. That's not what.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Concrete options.

[Shell Commercial Announcer]

That's my problem.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know what my concrete options are at this point. I don't. Because it seems like they change.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, the one thing, I mean, we've been consistent with you and the one thing that we, I think you've seen is one thing that we do control are the investigations.

[Israel Keyes]

Right?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

That's the one thing we do control. And that's the one thing that you, you know, you have more control over is investigations, which is what we've been. Is what. Why we're here, Investigations into other things. I think the control goes down over time to some extent, but.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

And to the extent we want to pursue the minimum publicity options.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Right.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, I understand what you're saying. The control over that option goes down absolutely. Because at some point if we're not able to hammer out some kind of concrete deal and get all this, everything all inclusive and done with, you know, time goes on and eventually more details come out and it's going to, you know, there's going to be publicity either way eventually. So the more time goes by, the more likely it is that we lose control of that option. As far as the maximum publicity, you know, that's something I can do at any time. I just, I think, you know, that's not my first option. That's not my first choice. But if I'm.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I don't know that one I'm left.

[Israel Keyes]

If that's the only one I'm left with at this, that's. That's. I feel like I'm being pushed into a corner to where that might be the only one I'm left with. And if that is the only one I'm left with, then I'm going to use it to make a point.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Right, but nobody's pushing you into a corner. I mean, we've explained to you the processes that go on and we're trying to give you what's going on out there as best as we can and time moves forward and so things will happen. But no one, I mean, no one has pushed you into a corner a lot of time. We've given you a lot of time.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

And everything we've done is sort of geared towards this minimum publicity and sort of telling not to make any public statements about it.

[Israel Keyes]

When I say being pushed into a corner, I'm not referring to you specifically. I'm referring to the whole situation and things that are out of all of our control. And the problem that I had especially initially was thinking that I could control the whole situation with just the few people involved with my specific situation. I realized now that's not completely realistic. I realize now there's things we can control and there's other things that maybe we can't, so. Which makes me all the more hesitant at this point to talk about anything else, because. I feel like as soon as I do, there's going to be another whole list of things I find out that I wasn't expecting.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

At least, I guess, like I don't understand for Vermont. You know, is there a bunch of stuff we know in Vermont we could have.

[Israel Keyes]

I'm not just referring to Vermont. Vermont. That is part of it, but, you know, that's. I understand. No, I had issues with the way investigators handled that case initially. I don't have, you know, it's a non issue for me. At this point.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So using that, I mean, that's what we're looking at, you know, because we're here moving forward on the other crimes, using that as a model. If you give us, you know, to the extent you can give us some more information about different things, then we can continue moving forward on this, like more, you know, controlled pace. You'll have more control with her. More control. And for Ahmad, if you kind of understand it, that, you know, we can.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I understand that we can. You know, if we were to move forward on the other issues. It's not that I am discrediting what you're saying or disbelieving you, that you wouldn't be able to keep it on the down low, as it were, you know, in comparison to the Vermont situation. I'm not doubting that. You know, the issue I have is that once I give out any information, then that's the end of it for me.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

From my perspective, the information's gone from you.

[Israel Keyes]

Exactly right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have so much information, right. You have so much information that it could go on for.

[Israel Keyes]

No, it's not that.

[Officer Bell]

And, you know, the information you need.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Am I wrong?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, it depends on years wise, I guess. Yeah, you're. No, you're not wrong. But I'm saying. I just gave you too much information initially, considering.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What did you learn?

[Israel Keyes]

No, I'm not saying, you know, I did accomplish a certain amount of things by giving you that information, and I'm not dissatisfied with those things. But at the same time, I realize I'm in a place right now where there's not much more that you can offer me or give me. Realistically. I'm not to say that you wouldn't want to or that, you know, we couldn't work out some deal or something, potential deal. It's just not. The things that I'm concerned about are just not in that normal discussion.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, that's great. You know, sometimes when you have a complex issue, breaking it down into pieces is the best way to go. Taking it, you know, things we don't control and things we do control.

[Israel Keyes]

Right.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So you just were talking about whatever we don't control, the things we do control are taking small steps forward on all the information that you have that you think is of value to us and probably is.

[Israel Keyes]

Right. Yeah. No, I can see that perspective. It's inevitable that this day comes. What day? This day. This is the day where you say, give us more information or else.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Right.

[Starbucks Advertiser]

Hey, what up, y'? All summer moves like a great jam session. You start with one idea, one direction, and then it shifts. Somebody calls. Energy changes. You take a detour. That's the beauty of it. For me, summer's always been about discovery. New sounds, new places, new people, new ideas. You start one place, end up somewhere completely different. And somehow that's exactly where you're supposed to be. I've always had my spots along the way. Starbucks has been one of those constants. Before a session, on the way to a gig, and between conversations that turn into something bigger than you expected. It's part of that movement, part of that rhythm. The summer's got its own soundtrack too. You can almost hear it without trying. Life's happening all around you. That feeling of staying open to whatever's next. Sometimes it's the smallest things that lock you into that moment. What you're holding, what you're sipping. The new Tropical Butterfly refresher from Starbucks. Guava and passion fruit flavors with mango, pineapple flavored pearls. Cold, colorful, alive. Feels like something made for the day that's still unfolding. And that's the thing, sometimes one small stop changes the whole mood of your day. Start your summer rhythm with Starbucks. Try the new Tropical Butterfly Refresher from Starbucks.

[Intuit ERP Advertiser]

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[SpinQuest Advertiser]

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[Israel Keyes]

play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, I think things are going to move on. You know, things are going to move forward and I'm. We've never been inconsistent about saying we can.

[Israel Keyes]

Look, I.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, I'm not.

[Israel Keyes]

I'm not faulting you for that. I'm just that that is inevitable. Well, from my perspective, you have to understand that not much has happened.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

And from our perspective, not much has happened. And that's why we're in A room thinking, can we make something happen?

[Israel Keyes]

Right. I see that. Okay.

[Officer Bell]

Like you said earlier, progression is inevitable on this, whether you help us or not help us. And so things have to move forward. From our perspective, our boss's perspective, things have to go forward. We would like them, all of us in this room would like them to go forward the way they've been going forward. But they haven't. They've stopped. And so that's why we're getting pressured to move things forward, even though we all may think that it's a moot point.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But why don't you talk about what New Jersey is doing?

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

One of the things that we've talked about from the beginning. We're going to keep you posted as to what's happening. So nothing is as surprise. Deborah Feldman. We had talked about her before.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

New Jersey is looking into her more. FBI is looking into her more. And that situation.

[Israel Keyes]

All right,

[Officer Bell]

now maybe that'd be a place where we could start.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I mean, not as far as I'm concerned.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, what should we tell New Jersey? What should they tell New Jersey? You said to come to you. If they're looking at things, what should we tell New Jersey?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know. I mean,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

tell him whatever you want. Well, they need to know, you know. You said come to you. We told them we gotta go to Israel.

[Israel Keyes]

I can't help him, if that's what you're asking.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What do you want us to tell them?

[Israel Keyes]

I can't help them.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, do you know this person?

[Israel Keyes]

No.

[Officer Bell]

Cancer won't.

[Israel Keyes]

That. That's not.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Person buried in New York?

[Israel Keyes]

No.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Do you know where this person is?

[Israel Keyes]

No.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Her name was on your computer.

[Israel Keyes]

Which computer?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Mine? Yeah. On your computer.

[Israel Keyes]

My laptop.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Tower.

[Israel Keyes]

Oh,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I don't understand.

[Israel Keyes]

You don't understand, Understand why the name was on my computer? Well, put it this way. If you. There's a lot of names on that computer.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Right, but we're talking about this one. I don't know here. We search your name.

[Officer Bell]

We told you we'd do this and we'd come back and try to get information from you without going over to try to get the information. And so we're just trying to hold up our end of the bar.

[Israel Keyes]

I mean, if you're referring to that 2009. Isn't that what you said?

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Yeah. Aprilly.

[Israel Keyes]

If you're referring to the New York trip, I don't know what you mean by going over because there wasn't anybody with me on that.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Okay. No, let's just Cut. I mean, I'm not. I just want to come over here with a clear picture, you know? Are you responsible for her death? No. Okay. Do you know anything about her disappearance? No. Why is her name on your computer?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know. Probably because I looked it up. I can't imagine why Kimberly would.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Does that image have any meaning to you?

[Israel Keyes]

Sure, but probably not on.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Well, just explain. So we're not sitting here wondering.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I'm not.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

I'm not.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I'm not going to talk about what's on the computer. I mean, if you. Like I say, if you're going to go out. I don't know what you're expecting me to say. I already said we're. I'm not talking about any more specific cases until we get some kind of deal hammered out for something. Beyond that. The only company concerns that I had when I said you're doing investigations was mostly. Mostly thinking of people close to me and bringing. Trying to bring them into investigation. So. But yeah. So, yeah, I don't know what you're saying. Saying what? If you're saying you're gonna go over, like, do a bulletin or something on that trip for 2009, first of all, I don't. Seems like there were several legs. I don't know. I don't know what you want me

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

to do in terms of this.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

They were. They're gonna start asking questions is basically what it comes down to. And I think up to this point, my impression has been that you've been pretty honest about stuff. Usually if there was something in the past that you didn't want to talk about, you just say, you know, I don't want to talk about it. You wouldn't. And I could be totally wrong. My impression was, though, you didn't just directly lie to us and say you did something or you didn't do something. You just said you didn't want to talk about it. And so with Deborah, New Jersey FBI is asking questions basically, because it fits. It fits. The date fits, the place fits, a number of things fit. And the fact that she's on your computer. So we're doing what we told you we were going to do is come and tell you, hey, this is what's going on. If there's things that you don't want to talk about, hypothetically. Hypothetically, if this were a victim and there were things that you did not want to talk about, because we're not to that point yet, then, okay, we're just asking for. Are they on the right track? Are they not on the right track. And we can stop at that or we can go further if you want to go further.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I didn't. I didn't kill her. Okay.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

Anything else related?

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No, I just didn't know if there's any. Is there something else to the story that you're just not willing to talk about today?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't want to talk about it.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

So.

[Officer Bell]

I mean, you seem conflicted with the answers. You're saying no, but you're kind of saying yes also. And so are.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

No.

[Israel Keyes]

I never said yes.

[Officer Bell]

No, but I mean, you're right.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, I. You have to understand from my perspective, I realize now that you know a lot about the things that I've done and places I've been on paper. And whereas I'm already in that respect, I already feel like I'm at a disadvantage. And I thought back on some of our previous interviews, and I know that even though I never initially or I never intended to blatantly lie, there have been some questions that I remember that you asked that I was. Kind of a 2020 hindsight thing when I think back, like, oh, that's why they probably asked that. In that case, I kind of look at it from a different perspective, from your perspective, I guess, as opposed to mine. My memory isn't. Finding more all the time isn't perfect on all this stuff.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

Can you give us an example of something like that in the past?

[Israel Keyes]

No, I don't want to talk about it. I'm just saying if that sort of thing becomes an issue, then there's any specific. You know, something specific becomes an issue and then we. We can talk about it. But

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

let me give you what just jumped in my mind when you said that. When we were talking about Texas, we had long conversations about when you were in Texas and the Larson. When you were in Texas, you were talking about being really amped up during that period of time. That whole week we spent.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, we talked about.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Talked about tax and the arson and the bank robbery. You know how you were feeling like you were going to rob a bank in one town and you were out looking for it. Right, right. Remember you were sitting there and you

[Israel Keyes]

were going to rob the bank in

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

the town, but you were watching the fire and you couldn't go to that bank anymore, and that was in Azel. And you buried some stuff when you were there. Right? Yeah, there's.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't. I know what. I know what you're getting at there. You know, there's some things that I haven't told you. About Texas, but that's not what I'm referring to. I was referring to things that happened

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

years ago, because that's what jumped in my mind. I'm like, this Texas thing, there's more to the story.

[Israel Keyes]

Like, we know, right? That, you know, that's. But that's not the thing. If I choose not to talk about something that's not the same as giving a misleading answer that could be construed as a lie. That's the point I'm trying to make. I've not been. There's a lot of things I've left out, obviously, and there have been some direct questions that I'm just saying my answers could have been construed as a lie or intentionally misleading, but that's not what my intent was necessarily. It was more of an issue of do I leave it out? Do I talk about it at all? Or do I just give a yes or no answer that may not be accurate? So that's what I was referring to. And so you talk about the New York trip. That's the issue with that a lot. Because I went a lot of places and several other trips prior to that. There was several stops, different flights or whatever involved. So that's what I was referring to.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Sure. And we could lay that all out for you, but we have. But we're not.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I'm not saying saying that. I'm just saying I remember the high points, if you will, but. Everything else involved, the order isn't always crystal clear anymore. That's something that I've been realizing more all the time as I try to talk about this stuff. It's not nearly as clear when it comes out of my mouth as it is in my head. So. And that was the case even with more recent thing. You know, even the more recent things we talked about. So that's why I was saying, you know, if we're gonna go back further than that, it's. It's gonna be. Just location. Yeah.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

And we can. And, you know, we can get you your records to show you where you were at different times. Right. Can help with that. No one's trying to trick you up, but we are trying to make sure that we don't leave any misleading impressions with the things that you said.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

You should write it down.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Officer Bell]

We'll be happy to share with you what we have.

[FBI Agent Deborah Feldman]

You share with us what you have,

[Officer Bell]

the car you rented and where you drove, and you just have to fill in the blanks. It actually should be pretty easy for

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

us to work that way. So, I mean, there's something more to the story just so unclear. There's something more to the story of Deborah that you're just not. Don't want to tell us now?

[Israel Keyes]

I just. Yeah, I just don't want to talk about it.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

But I'm right about that.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah.

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[FBI Agent Interviewer]

All?

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[Israel Keyes]

to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Some of this stuff. I think you said you've been reading, and I know these guys. Different of us have been reading different things with serial killers. Is that something that you. I mean, did you read about specific serial killers or just the fiction? Like just have an interest in that kind of.

[Israel Keyes]

No, I was more interested in the

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

real life thing, like books about specific people, like btk. But any case studies on btk? Was that one of them or. Not so much.

[Israel Keyes]

He wasn't one of my favorites.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Green River.

[Israel Keyes]

He was interesting. Interesting. I know all of them, Even the ones I was more interested in

[Officer Bell]

the

[Israel Keyes]

older stories, like turn of the century.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Okay. Like going way back, like Jack the Ripper, you know, that far back.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, Jack the Ripper's not that interesting because they never caught him. But. Yeah, there's just a different. Everybody thought of it as a new phenomenon back then.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

That's what it was.

[Israel Keyes]

Well, they just weren't. Genocide was becoming unpopular, so serial killers had to find something else.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

What was the most interesting ones that you read about?

[Israel Keyes]

Holmes. Holmes was one of them.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Tell me about Holmes.

[Israel Keyes]

Holmes was turn of the century 19,

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

where

[Israel Keyes]

he had a castle, castle dungeon combination in, I think it was Chicago. And he would give free room and

[Officer Bell]

board to people who were coming to

[Israel Keyes]

the world fair there. He was a doctor, medical doctor, or at least he'd been to medical school. I don't know if he's ever practiced. Anyway, essentially he had his house designed as a body processing factory. He would invite people to stay in this nice castle in these rooms. Had gas plumbed in the rooms and greased ships down to the basement,

[Officer Bell]

Sell

[Israel Keyes]

their skeletons to drugstores and medical hospitals and stuff.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

How did he get going?

[Israel Keyes]

Pinkerton's, I think. Pinkerton Detective Agency, they tracked him. He was. He went all across the United States, kidnapped, essentially kidnapped one of his girlfriends or wives, kids or something and took them all across the United States. By the time he got back, none of them were with him anymore. And that's what got people asking questions. Pinkerton's back trailed him and eventually found most of their names. He was. He was interesting because he was pretty sane individual. He looked at it as more of a business enterprise kind of thing. Even though I would say probably unquestionably, he was doing it for more than.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Than that. How do people. Are there books written on him? Did he write a book? Did other people write on him?

[Israel Keyes]

I read some books about him and then they recently just dug up a bunch more information on him.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Where did the information come from?

[Israel Keyes]

The most recent information on Him, I think I watched it on tv. Tv. But prior to that I had read about him in a couple different books.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

What's his first name?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Is it?

[Israel Keyes]

His initials were H.H. holmes, I think.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Who else are the. Who else are the interesting names?

[Israel Keyes]

It's all interesting reading.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

Why didn't you like btk?

[Israel Keyes]

He was a hack.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

How many number of years he seemed to get away with?

[Israel Keyes]

He got away with it for a long time. That was the most disappointing thing about him is that he never had to get caught. He just got bored. So he was too much, he was too soft in his old age to actually go out and do anything again. So he decided to go the publicity route without actually doing anything. And that's what was disappointing. He was also pretty unusual in that he was able to stop for a number of years. That's why I think that plus I saw the live Prediction prison interview and my impression of him, his personality is that he was actually sorry for the things that he had done. Younger, kind of like repented or thought he was repenting of his ways kind of thing.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

You think that was for real or was that a shock?

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know. I think it was for real because I honestly, I don't think it was. I don't think if you, if he really didn't believe that he was repenting of his sins, I don't think he ever would have stopped. Because he stopped for like 20 years. I don't know. In my mind that's impossible.

[FBI Agent Interviewer]

Why do you say that?

[Israel Keyes]

Just because of the way he, the way he killed people. You know, it's a pretty obsessive compulsive act to kill someone that way. It's not like you're a gang banger doing a drive by or something.

[FBI Agent Prosecutor]

How long do you think it'd be reasonable otherwise to go before killing someone?

[Israel Keyes]

Well, from my perspective, Hindsight's 2020, but my perspective, my only regret is that I tried to have as much self control as I did.

[True Crime Bullshit Host]

We'll be back on Thursday the 20th with part two of this interview. And for those of you looking for a new adventure this winter, we are heading to Costa Rica this November for our fourth Trova trip. We'll be visiting coffee plantations, doing jungle walks, hanging out on the beaches, seeing wildlife and getting to know the Pacific coast of Costa Rica. To find out more or book your spot, check out the link in the show notes. What a perfect way to bring in winter with the tropics.

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[Israel Keyes]

to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.

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[Israel Keyes]

All?

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