Retrospective 2: Investigations

Summary

Podcast Summary

True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode Title: Retrospective 2: Investigations
Release Date: July 9, 2026
Host: Josh Hallmark (Studio BOTH/AND)

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Episode Overview

This special retrospective episode explores the early days of host Josh Hallmark’s investigation-driven storytelling, centering on “The Karen and Ellen Letters”—an odd, comedic, and at times mysterious collection of correspondences between two teenage tenants and their increasingly exasperated landlord, Mark. The episode delves into how this obsession with authenticity, truth, and the human element in stories laid the foundation for Hallmark’s later, more serious work—investigating the unknown victims of Israel Keyes. Through a personal, reflective narrative, Hallmark discusses the ethical challenges, the emotional journey of investigation, and the transformative impact of seeking answers where ambiguity persists.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis: From Americana to Investigation

• Personal Reflection ([04:07-05:30]):
  Hallmark shares how his entry to podcasting with “Americana” quickly spiraled into deeper investigative work via “The Karen and Ellen Letters.”

  “It’s where my curiosity got the best of me…where, in the absence of an ending, I needed to find one.”
  —Josh Hallmark (04:07)

• Impact of ‘Sexing the Cherry’ ([04:46-06:41]):
  Hallmark reflects on Jeanette Winterson’s novel “Sexing the Cherry” and the themes of time, persistence, and narrative. The book serves as a metaphor for his evolving relationship with the Karen and Ellen story.

2. The Letters: Curiosity Becomes Obsession

• The Discovery ([13:10-14:30]):
  In 2005, Josh receives photocopied, handwritten letters as a birthday gift, leading to years of laughter, performances, blog posts, and, eventually, a full-fledged investigation.

• Turning Point ([17:10-18:25]):
  When the podcast adaptation begins (2017), Hallmark and co-investigator Sarah Stapleton (voice of Karen) dive anew into authenticating the letters.

• Methods and Limitations ([38:06]):
  Josh discusses the challenges of researching pre-internet mysteries:

  “We take for granted how difficult it is to research anything trivial that occurred in the pre-Internet days...All I really had were four names...and an address. So that’s where I started.”
  —Josh Hallmark (38:06)

3. Humanity, Power, and Harm in Storytelling

• Ethical Dilemmas ([07:30-12:00]):
  Hallmark wrestles with the consequences of public curiosity he ignited, both with Karen and Ellen, and later with high-stakes true crime cases.

  “I became afraid of the damage my investigation could do. And again, little did I know then how amplified that would become when I made the decision...to turn True Crime Bullsh** into a deep dive investigation rather than just a reporting of events.”
  —Josh Hallmark (10:04)

• Parasocial Relationships ([10:30-11:42]):
  He notes how investigators themselves can develop ‘parasocial’ connections to their subjects—“the more I want to know them, the more I want to protect them from me and everyone else who wants to know them.”

• Storyteller’s Power ([11:44-12:34]):
  The narrator discusses the way the storyteller’s perspective defines truth, and reflects on the “power and harm in storytelling.”

4. The Letters Themselves: Absurdity and Authenticity

• Letter Excerpts (Various Timestamps from [15:53] to [57:26]):
  The episode reads dozens of exchanges between Karen, Ellen, and Mark. Memorable highlights include:

  • Repeated demands for Mark to pay for questionable expenses (e.g., phone installation, exorcisms, air conditioners, ruined jeans, spirit houses).
  • The ongoing battle about rent control jurisdiction between Berkeley and Oakland.
  • Hilarious deadpanning from Mark, often incredulous at the tenants’ logic.
  • Ellen’s letters about cartoon names (“Why is Jessica Rabbit not a rabbit?” —49:51).
  • Karen’s boyfriend’s “legal” theories, often debunked by Mark (“Your boyfriend is referring to Tufts University...The name...has nothing to do with toughness, although Tufts does have a good reputation.” —55:09).

• Community and Perspective ([58:00]):
  Hallmark recounts how the letters became a social phenomenon among friends, sparking conversations about whether the people were real and what it means for a community if the story is fabricated.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Investigation and Curiosity:

  “So Sarah Stapleton, who plays Karen… and I began actually investigating and through which learning how to investigate those letters, their authentication, and who those people were, if they were at all.”
  —Josh Hallmark (06:50)

• On Power and Storytelling:

  “Because the person telling the story always has the most power. They define what the story is, who the characters are, and what the takeaways are.”
  —Josh Hallmark (11:44)

• On Absurdity of the Letters:

  “My boyfriend says that we should just accept that this is the way that tenants always get exploited by landlords in a capitalist system. But I’m not going along with that.”
  —Karen (42:07)

  “Dear Karen, you don’t seem to understand the concept of jurisdiction. Your house is in Oakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Board has no jurisdiction in Oakland.”
  —Mark the Landlord (47:57)

  “Like the next thing you know, Mickey Mouse could be called Mickey Rabbit even though he’s still a mouse. Kids would be all confused, and so am I.”
  —Ellen (49:51)

• On Community and Reality:

  “While yes, I wanted proof that these idiots were real, for some reason it also felt like the community wasn’t as strong or valuable or true if the letters themselves weren’t true, which says a lot about the ways in which we see and exist in the world.”
  —Josh Hallmark (58:00)

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Important Timestamps

• Opening Host Reflection & Podcasting Anniversary ([01:44-04:07])
• Origins of Investigative Curiosity / 'Sexing the Cherry' ([04:07-06:41])
• The Podcast as Catalyst for Investigation ([17:10-18:55])
• Classic Letter Exchanges Begin ([15:53 onward])
• Host on Ethics, Storytelling, and Power ([10:00-12:34])
• Discussion on Parasocial Bonds ([10:30-11:42])
• Research Struggles Pre-Internet ([38:06])
• Absurd Letter Highlights (Exorcism, Avocados, Rent Control) ([26:22], [31:56], [45:45])
• Community Reflection and Legacy ([58:00])

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Episode Tone & Language

Hallmark narrates with a blend of comedic dryness, personal vulnerability, and philosophical consideration. The reading of the letters is playful, highlighting both the earnestness/naivety of their writers and the mounting exasperation of Mark, while Hallmark’s framing voice is both reflective on his own growth and transparent about evolving notions of truth, harm, and narrative responsibility.

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Summary Statement

This episode is a rich meditation on the drive to know, the costs and joys of curiosity, and the very human longing to weave connection—from a mysterious birthday gift, through years of obsessive investigation, to the formation of community. With laughter and candor, Hallmark shows how storytelling both shapes and is shaped by its investigator—lessons that inform his work hunting the missing faces behind infamous crimes today.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Mark (Landlord)]

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[Narrator/Investigator]

This is a studio both and production.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

As you know we are celebrating my 10th year year in podcasting and we're capping that celebration off with a three day event here in the Berkshires over the weekend of September 25th. There will be studio sessions, live shows, a Bravo town hall, Berkshire activities like foraging, wine tasting, museum visits and more and tons of special guests. We'll do the Karen and Ellen Letters live starring Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime, Tawny Plattis famous renowned voice actress and Chris Brayton from the More Gooder Than Podcast. I'll be doing a very special first time ever live show of the Pact with special guest Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. We'll do a panel discussion on Unsafe Spaces featuring me, Kaz, Charlie Worrell from Crimelines and Justin and Aaron from Generation Y. There will even be a live episode of our Americana and a very cool playlist by TCB Episode Featur me and the entire research team. Guests will get to check out my new speakeasy the Green Room, tour the studio and get elbow deep in the research process. This is a once in a lifetime event where you'll get to enjoy the Berkshires, share fun activities with the podcast hosts you love the most, and really dig into podcasting and all the shows I have produced along with my friends. Book your tickets today by clicking the link in the show notes. And if that doesn't work for you, why don't you think about if not now, when? For example, we are going to the Galapagos Islands January 11th through 17th. Haven't you always wanted to go? And if not now, when will you go? And wouldn't you rather go during the winter here in the States to escape to the warmth with like minded new friends who love true crime bullshit as much as you do, but also love the experience of travel, seeing animals and getting away from it all? These trova trips have made me lifelong friends. They are such a great way to meet new people, get out of your world and shake things up. And like I said, if you're not going to go to the Galapagos now, will you ever book your trip today by clicking the link in the show notes? And now here's the show

[Narrator/Investigator]

if our

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Americana was my entryway into podcasting, then the Karen and Ellen letters were my introduction into actual investigations. It's where my curiosity got the best of me, and where the story became bigger than words on a page, where, in the absence of an ending, I needed to find one. Which is funny now, because that particular ending and what it's meant to me has become so fluid that it's barely an ending at all. Now there's this book I read and reread every five to ten years or so, Sexing the Cherry by Jeanette Winterson. I first read it when I was about 20, shortly after I'd moved to San Francisco and come out of the closet when I began desperately searching for a love and stability and acceptance that I never felt like I'd had prior. The book is simultaneously both about the persistence of and the absence of time, the recurrence of life, the longevity of storytelling, the reincarnation of memory and dreams. When I was younger and more idealistic, it represented the persistence of love. In many ways it still does, but what it means to me and my life changes with every year and every read. And that's what the Karen and Ellen letters have been for me, a sort of guidepost or a penciled height on a door frame that belongs to someone else now. When I first received the Karen and Ellen letters, a hand bound book of correspondence between two teenage girls and their landlord, it was more of a party trick than anything Else something we'd pull out after a few bottles of wine, pass around reading and laughing late at night. The mystery of the letters was ever present, but their value was in the content of the letters themselves. And for years of reading those letters amongst different groups of people, that would rarely change other than a few moments of curiosity. Although it was a mystery that nagged at me, but also one I never thought I was truly capable of solving, I also often wondered if it was best not knowing what was real and what wasn't. In late 2016, I decided to turn the letters into a podcast. And 12 years after receiving those letters, I found that their value was now in the mystery. The story was both our own curiosity about who these people were and how they came to collide, and the mystery of what was real, what wasn't, and what was the gray in between. So Sarah Stapleton, who plays Karen in the podcast, and I began actually investigating and through which learning how to investigate those letters, their authentication, and who those people were, if they were at all. And investigating the Karen and Ellen letters introduced me to Newspapers.com, spokeo, the Internet archives, and all these other tools that I use now daily in my investigation into Keys and other podcasts. It all came from my unending curiosity surrounding the mystery of Karen and Ellen, from my need to know and my need for an ending. Little did I know what a rabbit hole that curiosity would lead me down. And like sexing the cherry, the more time I spent with Karen and Ellen, the more I saw them holistically from different perspectives, with different curiosity that led to new questions and varying levels of understanding. I was obsessed, but also became endeared in podcasting. We talk a lot about parasocial relationships, and if we're being honest, they start with us and our subjects. I came to know and care for these girls, these women who were 10 years older than me but forever trapped in their late teens. I felt like I needed to protect them, but also know them. At the time, I didn't realize how often contrasting those two needs can be. It's something I've learned and lived in, much more significantly with the Keyes investigation and specifically Sarah and Tammy. The more I want to know them, the more I want to protect them from me and everyone else who wants to know them. I also came to learn what a Pandora's box asking simple questions aloud can be. People I didn't know began investigating Karen and Ellen. They wanted the same answers I did. Some were curious, some were reckless, and they were a curiosity and recklessness that I awoke inside them, one I couldn't control, one I couldn't guide through my own ideas of ethics, what was right and wrong, people I couldn't protect Karen and Ellen from. I became afraid of the damage my investigation could do. And again, little did I know then how amplified that would become when I made the decision, based on that very investigation, to turn true crime bullshit into a deep dive investigation rather than just a reporting of events. But with tcb, like with the Karen and Ellen letters, I needed an end. I needed to know everything, no matter the cost. The price I paid for the Karen and Ellen letters would be minimal. No one got hurt, no one got exposed and were able to still laugh at the joke that was once the core of those letters, but also walk away with the lessons and humanity that were their ultimate value. The epilogue of that podcast is to remember, to always look deeper, to always see beyond what people want you to see, to give everyone their humanity and grace. Because if you don't, you never know when or how hard it will slap you in the face. Because when you don't, you're often robbing yourself and your loved ones of their humanity and grace. Because those two girls who started as jokes, as butts of the joke, they ended up reminding us all of our own humanity and humility and both the power and harm in storytelling. Because the person telling the story always has the most power. They define what the story is, who the characters are, and what the takeaways are. And while in creating and investigating that podcast and those letters, I got to take the power away from Mark. The story now lives on through my power perspective. And if I've learned anything over time, it's that perspective is both at once absent and persistent. These are the first two episodes of the Karen and Ellen letters where my need to know everything truly manifested for the first time. It is both a comedy and a mystery. A story of power and humanity. A look at two people through multiple lenses, but rarely, if ever, their own. And like Sexing the cherry, the story changes and changes me every time I revisit it. These are the Karen and Ellen letters. But first, a quick ad break. We've all had those nights. The one where you laugh until the sun comes up, where conversations go places they've never gone before, and you walk away feeling closer to the people around you than you have in years. That's psilocybin. 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[Mark (Landlord)]

Listening to this podcast may cause unmitigating

[Ellen (Tenant)]

obsession and cognitive dissonance.

[Mark (Landlord)]

All names have been changed to protect the innocent, the insane, and everyone else in between.

[Narrator/Investigator]

It was the summer of 2005. At a Kinko's in downtown San Francisco. A woman named Susan watched worn out pages as they slid through a photocopier like they had so many times before and like they would so many times again.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Just several blocks away, a guy who

[Narrator/Investigator]

somewhat resembles me now was turning 24. Hurricane Katrina had just devastated the Gulf coast, and I was devastated. I'd spent the previous week watching the city I'd just moved from, the city I loved, the city full of some of my closest friends, flooded, looted, destroyed and ignored. The night before my birthday, my boyfriend, best friend and I sat in silence in a wine bar, occasionally choking up in conversation that existed merely to cull the conversation we were avoiding. At midnight, we chugged Beaujolais in front of a picture window that overlooked the San Francisco Bay and out across to Oakland and Berkeley. And we wondered where our friends were. They were okay. We tried to find some bright spot. We looked for some reason to smile, to laugh. Karen and Ellen always have a way of finding you when you need them the most. It's funny looking back now at how much not only my life has changed since that fateful night, but also how I view those letters. How a simple birthday gift would change my life completely. How for years it would be about comedy and then mystery, which became obsession, and now, finally, community and perspective and humanity. The many lives of these letters have all had such distinct and different impacts on mine, and they've always come at just the right moments. Like I said, Karen and Ellen always find you just when you need them the most, and they always bring with them an ironic sense of wisdom and awareness and maybe just the right amount of cognitive dissonance. This is the Karen and Ellen letters. It was the summer of 1987. The Simpsons made their first TV appearance, the stock market crashed, and perhaps not coincidentally, Prozac made its American debut. And Meanwhile, in Oakland, California, two teenage girls were moving into their very first apartment

[Mark (Landlord)]

July 1, 1987 Dear Mark, When I signed the lease last week, I pointed out the burned out light bulb in the refrigerator. You said if I replaced it myself, I could deduct the cost from my next month's rent along with any other small expenses that were your responsibility. So I'm sending you this list of things I plan will deduct from my August rent list. Number one 1. Refrigerator light bulb $2 2. Oven light bulb $2 3. Shed padlock $8 4. Telephone installation $37 5. Telephone $36 6. Telephone extension cord $9 7. Hangers for closets in bedrooms $12 8. Extra front door keys you okayed $6 9. Fish food $10 10. Algaecide $5 11. Garden tools $16 12. Ice tray for freezer $2 13.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Cleaning stuff $46 In 2005, I received

[Narrator/Investigator]

a strange and life changing birthday present, a file folder full of photocopied, handwritten letters between two tenants and their landlord. I looked a bit bewildered at the woman who handed me the present, a woman named Susan who I worked with at, ironically enough, a law firm. She just smiled and said, trust me, you need these. And she was right, in more ways than one. Little did I know then that this folder would lead to hours upon hours of hysterical laughter and then a successful blog followed by a live performance and an odd 11 year journey to authenticate those letters. I launched the Karen and Ellen letters as a podcast back in 2017, at which point not much progress had been made in actually finding out the truth about the letters. But as we recorded episode after episode, Sarah Stapleton, who plays Karen, became as obsessed with finding out the truth as I was and in real time. As the podcast was airing, we reopened my investigation into them and we started finding answers. And those answers were often quite surprising and almost always a bit challenging. Throughout the podcast you'll hear the letters read by actors, and those letters are read as they're written. Typos, misspellings, poor grammar, and all of which there is a lot. And as we go along, I imagine you'll find yourself debating whether or not these could be real. And it turns out the answer to that question is as complicated as it is surprising.

[Mark (Landlord)]

July 3, 1987 Dear Mark, List number two 1 Bay Cablevision Cable TV Hookup $50 2 Bay Cable Vision Deposit $50. I will return this $50 to you when I leave. 3. Oven Cleaner $4 4. Bath Rug $30 5. Electric Broom Vacuum Cleaner $47 Karen July

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

9, 1987 Dear Karen, I have received your lists number one and two of expenses you plan to deduct from your rent. You may deduct the cost of the refrigerator and stove, light bulbs, the oven cleaner if the oven was dirty when you moved in, and the keys and the padlock, provided that you return the padlock and its keys to me when you leave. I will not pay for the other expenses because I do not believe that they could normally be considered a landlord responsibility. I think you have badly misunderstood me when I said you could make small purchases and deduct them from your rent if I was responsible for them. In the future, before you buy anything that you plan to deduct from your rent, I think you should call me first and get my okay.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Mark July 13, 1987 Dear Mark, Got your letter. I'd like to work out a deal with you on my list of expenses. So I'll pay for the cable TV stuff if you will pay for the phone stuff and I will pay for the cleaning stuff if you will pay for the vacuum cleaner. Or we can just split the expenses in half. I'd like to get this settled before Ellen arrives next month. Karen P.S. a few days ago I was sitting on the deck. When I stood up I tore my jeans that got caught on a nail in your deck. The jeans costed $42. I've saved them so you can see them.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

K July 21, 1987 Dear Mark, hello. I'm just writing to let you know how much I'm looking forward to moving into my new home. Karen has described the house to me and it sounds a little dreamy. I know we will get along famously. As you know, I'm an artist and I'm majoring in interior design at uc. I'm looking forward to trying out some of my ideas on my new home. I'm leaving money matters to Karen. Being an artist, I'm not as practical as she is. I've been studying art in Washington this summer. One of the things I'VE learned here is is a new oil transfer process for marbleizing walls and ceilings. Of course I'll check with you before doing any work on my walls, but I know you'll just love it. I have a gauzy picture in my mind of the house. Now I know that with work, imagination and some financial assistance from you I can turn my new home into an enchanted place. Yours, Ellen

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

July 6, 1987. Your expectations that I'm going to pay for such things as your vacuum cleaner, your telephone, and now your clothes is totally ridiculous and unrealistic on your part. I'm sorry to be so blunt, but my last letter didn't seem to make my point clear to you. My last letter was not intended to be an offer in part of a continuing negotiation like haggling with a rug mercury merchant at a Persian bazaar, but rather a simple statement of what I will and will not pay for. As far as your genes are concerned, I can only advise you that you look more carefully in future where you sit. A deck is designed to be walked upon, not sat upon.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Sincerely, Mark July 23, 1987 Dear Mark, I didn't understand your letter. I don't want to buy a rug in a Persian bazaar. I just want you to pay for the stuff I talked about in my letters to you, especially the cable TV deposit which is overdue. Karen P.S. good news. I fixed my jeans so now you don't have to pay for them.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

K July 24, 1987 Karen, your lease says that you are to pay all utility bills except for garbage collection and water. When I told you to call PGE to transfer the gas and electricity to your house, I did not give you permission to have them send the bill to me. I expressly told you when you signed the lease that you were to pay the gas and electric bill. I don't know why you've had the bills sent to me, but you should call PGE immediately to have them service transferred to your name because I'm going to call them and have it taken out of my name. As you know, I can't have the service turned off since there's only one meter for yours and the Caldwell's electricity. Karen, you've got to stop playing games with me. My patience is getting pretty stretched.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

Mark

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

July 28, 1987 When I wrote that I wasn't going to haggle with you you like a rug dealer in a Persian bazaar, or bizarre if you prefer, I meant that only as a simile, a figure of speech. I cannot be more blunt than I have already been. I will only pay for those items I have expressly agreed to pay for in my letters to you. As to the cable TV deposit, Karen, you should know that the landlord does not pay a deposit to his tenant, but rather a tenant pays a deposit to a landlord. Mark.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Mark, I'm very concerned about all these rats. Karen. August 2, 1987. Dear Mark, I've asked a lot of my friends and they tell me you're right about the cable TV deposit. My friends tell me that landlords don't give deposits to their tenants. So I guess I'll just have to pay for all the stuff on my lists myself. Now, since you won't, there is one new item. When I moved in, I agreed to split the electric bale in half with the Caldwells in the front house. But there's two of them, Diane and Marshall, and only one of me until Ellen gets here. So I should pay only one third of the bill until then. That seems fairer to me. They use more electricity than than me and have two cats. Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

August 5, 1987. Karen, I will not debate the electric bill with you. In the rental agreement you signed, you agreed to pay half of the property's electric bill. I cannot measure the amount of electricity used by you versus the amount of electricity used by the Caldwells and their two cats. Read your rental agreement. Sincerely, Mark.

[Narrator/Investigator]

It was the summer of 1987. Aretha Franklin became the first woman inducted into the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. The Legend of Zelda was released for Nintendo. The world population reached 5 billion. And in Oakland, California, two teenage girls were still settling into their first apartment.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

August 8, 1987. Dear Mark, well, I guess I've arrived. The house doesn't seem quite as dreamy as I imagined. I think the last tenants must have had bad feelings about this house because I can sense bad spirits here. I've discussed this with my guru, Mr. Samila Patrick Patel. He is willing to exorcise the bad spirits in this house for $250. As he is a good friend of mine. His regular fee is $500, so I've saved you 50%. Can I get your okay as soon as possible? Mr. Patel travels a lot and we wouldn't want to miss him. Ellen. P.S. karen tells me your decorator is in Venice. Tell him he must see the Bridge of Sighs. Beautiful. Yours, Ellen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

August 10, 1987. Dear Ellen, I know that you and Karen have only recently arrived in the Bay Area. I don't know what the rental market is like where you come from. It is possible that where you come from, landlords normally pay for exorcisms. However, I can assure you that the landlords in this area do not pay for exorcisms or any other means of driving away bad spirits from their property. If you speak to your friends who have lived in this area for several years, they will confirm what I am saying is true. Sincerely, Mark P.S. i do not want you to marbleize the walls or wallpaper, print or paint the walls either. Remember, the rental agreement you signed prohibits any redecorating, altering or remodeling of the building by you without my prior written consent.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Mark

[Ellen (Tenant)]

August 14, 1987. Dear Mark, you requested that I should ask my friends if you were justified in refusing to pay for exercising the bed spirits from my home. And I did. Here's how they voted. Three people felt that my request was unreasonable. Four people felt that my request was reasonable. But you were within your rights to refuse, including Karen. Two people felt that my request was reasonable and you should have paid. Two person felt that my request was reasonable and you are being completely unreasonable. So it looks like my friends agree with you. I'm going to ask them again after the Harmonic Convergence. I'll let you know if they've changed their mind.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Ellen August 15, 1987. Dear Mark, I'll pay half the electric bill until Ellen arrived, but I don't really think it's fair. You know this house only have one telephone outlet in the kitchen. I'd like another one in my bedroom and Ellen will probably also want one in her the electric store around the corner. Positively Electric says they can sell me a big roll of telephone wire for $5. Will you pay the telephone company for the installation of two extra telephones in our bedrooms?

[Ellen (Tenant)]

Karen August 16, 1987 Dear Mark, Got some bad news for you. My guru, Mr. Patel has left the U.S. he's gone to a monastery in Sri Lanka to make meditate. I don't know when he'll be back in California. There's a civil war going on in Sri Lanka. There have already been attacks on monasteries in Sri Lanka by heavily armed guerillas. Guru Patel recommended another guru for the exorcising of the house spirits, a Guru Lahera. Unfortunately, I don't have a personal relationship with Guru Lahera, so he's going to charge you the full $500. But don't worry, I'm shopping around for a cheaper guru. Do you know any bargain gurus? Karen thinks this is all nonsense, so please write to me about this. Not her, yours Ellen. August 25, 1987. Dear Mark, Guru Lahara has just informed of the sad news that the monastery near Trincomalee, Sri Lanka, has been attacked by communist guerrillas and Guru Patel has probably been killed. Guru Lahaira has gone back to Sri Lanka to attend to matters and meditate. So, temporarily, I'm going to have to put off the exercising of my house spirits. Although I know you probably want to get this over with almost as much as I do. Temporarily, I'm going to try to lure the bad spirits from the house by putting a spirit house in the garden. The spirit House costs $200, plus the cost of food and the gifts to be placed inside. I'll understand if you don't want to pay for this expense in addition to the exorcism sometime later. Yours, Ellen. You shouldn't blame yourself too much for this. August 30, 1987. Dear Mark, enclosed is our September rent, less the deduction for the spirit house. Usual rent, $590, minus Spirit House, 200. September rent, $350. Karen says since $350 doesn't divide evenly by two, I'm paying $190 and Karen's paying $170. Yours, Ellen. August 31, 1987. Dear Mark, there's a man who looks over my fence with a strange look whenever I'm washing my fence fish. Do you know if he is normal? Yours, Ellen.

[Mark (Landlord)]

September 19, 1987. Dear Mark, you shouldn't worry about making Ellen cry. She cries all the time. You know, I'm still waiting to get approval from your decorator to wallpaper my house. Is he back yet from Venice? It's too hard to wallpaper over all these louvered closet doors, so I think I'll just glue some nice fake foam fur to them. What color would you suggest? Oh, could I get a check from you for $500 as an advance on the fabric and fur and glue? Sincerely, Karen. September 20, 1987. Dear Mark, I found out that you gave a VCR to the Caldwells. I'd like a VCR and so would Ellen. There's a VCR I saw at the Good Guys store in Berkeley that I liked. It's $370. The blue ones are 450. I want a blue one. Ellen would like to get her VCR before the autumnal equinox. Sincerely, Karen. December 10, 1987. Dear Mark, it's been a long time since I wrote to you. The repairman from Taylor Appliance never came. Even after we made an appointment and our oven still smells bad. I think there's a gas leak, but Ellen says it smells like avocados. I think Ellen's wrong. You know, there's a very big avocado tree next to our front door and I think Ellen's just smelling the True. But Ellen says she can smell avocados when she sticks her head into the oven. So she says it's not a gas leak. What do you think? Yours, Karen. December 16, 1987. Dear Mark, we called in a repairman from Reliance Appliance to fix our stove. He's a real genius. He smelled the avocados too. He said that gas never smells like avocados. So he moved the oven and he found a rotten avocado that fell behind the stove. The repairman charged me $85 for the service call, which I will deduct from my January rent. Okay, yo. Yours, Karen.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Throughout reading the letters, the first of many debates we had was, are Karen and Ellen really this dumb and demanding or are they just fucking with Mark? And while hopefully none of us were quite this dumb and demanding at that age, it was hard not to think about all the crazy things we did the first times we were living on our own. My roommates and I once tried to give our landlord giant's tickets in lieu of a deposit. We also used to feed the feral raccoons in our backyard directly from our kitchen. We willingly let raccoons into our house. So looking back, this is mortifyingly stupid, naive, insane. But at the same time, at that age with very little life experience, it seemed reasonable or fun. So for a brief moment in reading these letters, we figured that was most likely the case. Karen and Ellen either felt they were reasonable or were having fun. But then things escalated. Like a lot.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

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[Mark (Landlord)]

may cause unmitigating obsession and cognitive dissonance. All names have been changed to protect the innocent, the insane, and everyone else in between.

[Narrator/Investigator]

It was a turn of the new year. George H.W. bush had just been elected president. The TV show Roseanne debuted.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Construction of the Chunnel connecting England to France began.

[Narrator/Investigator]

And in Oakland, California, two teenage girls were in the early early stages of

[Podcast Host/Producer]

what would become a years long letter

[Narrator/Investigator]

writing campaign of terror.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

December 23, 1987 Dear Mark, I just want you to know that I think you're right. We should have looked behind the stove before calling the repairman over. I don't want Karen to know that I don't think that you should have to pay for this repair. So please don't tell her that I didn't tell you that. I don't think she's wrong. I just want to play dumb on this one.

[Narrator/Investigator]

Ellen as the old saying goes, you can almost always prove that something has occurred, but it's nearly impossible to prove that something hasn't occurred. But as we all hopefully know by now, just because you can't prove that something didn't happen doesn't necessarily mean that it did happen. I think we take for granted how difficult it is to research anything trivial that occurred in the pre Internet days. When I first started looking into these letters, MySpace had only been around for a year. Newspapers.com didn't even even exist. Smartphones weren't really a thing. So proving a person existed was hard, let alone proving a whole series of events connected to that person occurred. And all I really had were four names, three of which were pretty common, and an address. So that's where I started. I googled the address of the Karen and Ellen's cottage and was pleasantly surprised to find that it actually existed in Oakland. A small cottage, just as the girls describe it in their letters. So feeling slightly more confident, I googled Mark's name and sure enough there was a landlord in the East Bay with his name, but there was no way to get a hold of him. All that really came up were references to him in various meeting minutes. But in searching for Karen and Ellen, there were some documents that will come up later in the letters, which seemed like a very good starting point. But they originated out of state, and at this point a mere curiosity wasn't enough for me to pay for an investigative trip up to Oregon, where the girls grew up. And so, for the first of several times, I gave up and we resumed the almost monthly tradition of inviting people over, plying them with wine and reading the letters until someone inevitably wet their pants.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

January 21, 1988. Dear Mark, the toilet here makes a noise I don't like. When I flush it, it makes a loud gurgling sound. My daddy had the same problem. He had jet toilets for put in in our house and no toilet flushing noise. Good news. General Plumbing around the corner from here has jet toilets in stock. I like you to put one in here. The white jet toilets cost $175, but I would like one in eggshell. They cost $225. Please let me know when you can do the job. Yours, Ellen. February 5th, 1988. Dear Mark, Marcia, a former tenant of yours, is a good friend of me. She tells me that when she used to rent her apartment from you on McKinley street, you used to take her free firewood for free. She says you take free firewood to lots of your tenants. How come I never get any? Yours, Ellen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

February 8, 1988. Dear Ellen, it is true that I used to give firewood to Marcia. It is also true that I still give free firewood to some of my tenants, those with fireplaces. Your cottage has no wood stove or fireplace. Sincerely, Mark.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

Dear Mark, I know I haven't gotten a fireplace. If I did have one, I would have seen it by now. But it's irrelevant. If you give free firewood to your your other tenants, I should get a free share too. Yours, Ellen.

[Mark (Landlord)]

February 23, 1988. Dear Mark, when I moved in here, you refused to pay for our phone stuff and cable TV stuff and our cleaning stuff, and I let you get away with all that. Now you're refusing to pay for my stow repair and I've got to put my feet down on this one. My boyfriend says that we should just accept that this is the way that tenants always get exploited by landlords in a capitalist system. But I'm not going along with that. Everyone knows that a landlord always pays for stove repair. I thought about your argument that this wasn't a stove repair because the stove wasn't broken. But you're just playing a word game with me, so I'm deducting the $85 for my next rent anyhow. Karen April 5, 1980. Dear Mark, I need an air conditioner. It is very hot in this house with all the windows closed on hot days. I found a window air conditioner at Sears for $520 including installation and a service contract plus $62 sales tax.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

Yours, Karen, April 8, 1988. Dear Karen, I am not buying you an air conditioner. I suggest that on the few hot days we get around here that you open your windows.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Mark April 11, 1988. Dear Mark, I keep the windows closed because the people who use the car wash on the corner play their car radios very loudly and it is too nosy in here with the windows open when people who use the car wash play their car was car radios very loudly when they wash their cars. Yours, Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

April 14, 1988. Dear Karen, the car wash is very noisy. If it is unreasonably loud, you might consider filing a complaint with the police. They may be able to pressure the owner to control the noise. I repeat, I am not buying you an air conditioner.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Sincerely, Mark April 20, 1988. Dear Mark, I showed your letter to my grandmother when I visited her over the weekend in Palm Desert where she lives. She has a much bigger apartment than me and her rent is only $550 a month. My grandmother says you are being told total unreasonable. She says all her friends have an air conditioning and the landlord always pays for the thing. Yours, Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

April 24, 1988. Dear Karen, the climate in the San Francisco Bay area is quite different from that in Death Valley, which is near Palm Desert where your grandmother lives. I repeat, I am not buying you an air conditioner. Sincerely, Mark.

[Narrator/Investigator]

It was the summer of 1988. Nancy Reagan was using a psychic to schedule her White House events. The average monthly rent was $420. Crack cocaine made its American debut, and In Oakland, California, two teenage girls were struggling with jurisdiction.

[Mark (Landlord)]

May 10, 1988. Dear Mark, Last week a man named Hal stopped by here. He said he used to live in a chicken coop that used to be where my cottage is now. Hal says he used to pay you $200 a month rent. I pay $590 a month. I don't think the Berkeley Rent control law allows that much of an increase. Yours, Karen, May 15, 1988. Dear Mark, I called the Berkeley Rent Control Board and they say that you can charge the 26.4% plus $25 more than you were charging on December 1, 1980. I figure my rent should be $216.90, which is 26.4% plus $25 MORE than the $200 HAL was paying. That means you owe me a refund of $9,200, according to my boyfriend. You can either send me a check or take it off my rent if you agree with those numbers. Yours, Karen.

[Narrator/Investigator]

About a year and a half after I received the letters, life had some changes for me. I ended up leaving the Bay Area and heading north to Portland. I moved with only the essentials. So the Karen and Ellen letters sat in a box in my parents garage for a year while I made a life for myself in Oregon. When my parents finally came to visit, they brought the majority of my stuff up with them. And as I sat there going through boxes, I stumbled upon those old letters. And just a few nights later, the old tradition continued, only this time in Portland with a whole new circle of friends laughing at the Karen and Ellen letters. And that's when we realized something amazing. I was now living in the girl's hometown.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

May 18, 1988.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

Oh.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

Dear Karen, you don't seem to understand the concept of jurisdiction. Your house is in Oakland. The Berkeley Rent Control Board has no jurisdiction in Oakland. The fact that you attend college in Berkeley is irrelevant. The rent you pay is lawful under Oakland's Rent control law.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Mark May 21, 1988. Dear Mark, I would like to get get the weeds in my yard cut down and landscaped because it's in the shade a lot. I think ferns would be nice. I know a landscaper, Kiro Yamashita, would will do the job for you. I'd be willing to let you deduct the cost of this from the $9200 you owes me. Yours, Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

May 25, 1988. Dear Karen, I repeat, Berkeley's rent control loss is not enforceable in Oakland. I do not owe you $9,200 or any other amount and I will not pay you for your gardening or landscaping. I would like to suggest to you that since you feel I am unreasonable and am overcharging you for what you're renting from me, you consider finding another place to live with a landlord more to your liking.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Very sincerely, Mark June 3, 1988. Dear Mark, I was really hurt by your last letter. You shouldn't take your owing me the $9200 personally. I know the house is in Oakland, but you advertised it at the university student housing office, which is in Berkeley. My boyfriend, who is thinking of going to law school, says that means jurisdiction is irreverent. Yours, Karen.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

June 6, 1988. Dear Mark, I saw a commercial for a movie yesterday who Framed Roger Rabbit? I'm really worried about it. You see, it's all about a rabbit named Roger Rabbit. Roger Rabbit is married. His wife is named Jessica Rabbit. But she's not a rabbit. She's a person. You know, a real person, even though she's only a cartoon. Well, why is her last name Rabbit? In cartoons, the last name of the thing is supposed to tell you what kind of thing the thing is. You know, like Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Bugs Bunny. Well, if they can call a person Jessica Rabbit, maybe they'll do the same thing with other cartoons. Like. Like the next thing. You know, Mickey Mouse could be called Mickey Rabbit even though he's still a mouse. Kids would be all confused, and so am I. I think this is serious. Ellen

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

June 6, 1988. Dear Karen, I do not owe you any money. Your house is in Oakland, not in Berkeley. You do not get to pick which city's rent control law you like. If you file a petition with the Berkeley Rent Control Board, you will lose your case but still cause me the inconvenience of having to attend a hearing and hiring a lawyer. If you put me through this expense and inconvenience, I warn you, I will evict you. This is no joke.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Very sincerely, Mark June 10, 1988. Dear Mark, I don't want to leave my house, but I'll go if you insist. After you send me the $9200 you owe me. My boyfriend is going to visit the Berkeley Rent Control Board this week. I don't want to spoil our relationship relationship, But I can really use the $9200. Yours, Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

June 12, 1988. Dear Karen, as I have already told you, it doesn't matter where I live, where you go to school, or where you pay your rent. Your house is not in Berkeley, but in Oakland. The Berkeley Rent could control board has no jurisdiction in Oakland, which is a separate incorporated city. While I don't want you to go to the Berkeley Rent Control Board, since you already intend to go there anyway, ask them about jurisdiction and perhaps ask your lawyer too.

[Ellen (Tenant)]

Mark June 14, 1988. Dear Mark, According to Karen's boyfriend, Rob, your jurisdiction argument is inethical. I don't know a lot about jurisdiction, but I think it's overlooking the real issue if different places have different rules for different things. It seems unfair. Like if I live in one place with different rules for different things, then I move to a different place. I don't know what the rules are in that new place. It just seems confusing for everyone. Rob says jurisdiction is a capitalist loophole. Sometimes I think I agree with Rob, and sometimes I think I don't. What do you think? Yours, Ellen June 15, 1988.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Dear Mark, it's obvious to me that you are taking the $9,200 you owe me personally, even if you don't. Since I wouldn't want our friendship to be spoiled by this, I'm willing to settle this matter by splitting the amount of half. If you'll send me $4200, I'll let the other $4200 go. The Berkeley Rent Control Board told me that your jurisdiction argument is yours, Karen.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

June 17, 1988. Dear Karen, I do not owe you $9,200 or any other amount. My last letter was no joke. If you file a petition with the Berkeley Rent Control Board for a rent rebate on your house, which is in Oakland, I will send you a 30 day eviction notice within 24 hours. Think it over. You need legal advice and and I don't mean from your boyfriend who is, quote, thinking of going to law school. End quote.

[Mark (Landlord)]

Very sincerely, Mark June 19, 1988. Dear Mark, my boyfriend may not be a lawyer, but he's got an application for law school at the Tuft University in Boston and he says he can get in if he wants to go there. He's smart. Well, he went to the Berkeley Rent Control Board two days ago, but the person he spoke to didn't know anything about jurisdiction, but she would ask someone else at her office and call us back. So we will see who's right.

[Mark (Landlord's Letters)]

Yours, Karen June 23, 1988. Dear Karen, I've been reluctant to say anything critical about your boyfriend up until now, but I must say something about him that you will not want to hear. You have mentioned in your phone calls to me and now in your last letter that you think your boyfriend is smart and a reliable source on legal advice because he's thinking of applying to the tough Law School in Boston. And you believe he will be able to get into this tough law school easily. The school your boyfriend is referring to is not the Tough University, but Toughs University, which is in Boston. The name of the school has nothing to do with toughness, although Tufts does have a good reputation. Besides thinking about applying to law school, no matter how good or tough the school may be does not qualify a person to give legal advice. I advise you again to see a real lawyer of your own. Mark June 23, 1988 Dear Albert, would you do me a favor? Send me a one page letter on your university stationery. Simply stating something like a city's rent control law is not enforceable beyond a city's jurisdiction. I think Karen would be impressed by such a letter from a professor of law from Boston. Even though you didn't teach at the Tuff university. Thanks Mark.

[Mark (Landlord)]

June 26, 1988 Mark, you're right. My boyfriend says he's planning to go to Tufts. I must have heard him wrong, but he says Tufts is pretty tough. Anyway, he went to the Berkeley Rent Control Board. They said they would have to look over my letters and yours and get back to me. The woman he spoke to says I may have a case. Unless I don't, it will take them a few weeks to make up their minds. I'll get back to you on this when they get back to the me on this. Yours, Karen.

[Narrator/Investigator]

At this point in our initial reading of the letters, we were howling with laughter over the stupidity of these two teenage girls and the frustration and sass of their landlord who was well into his 50s in Portland. I was going through microfiche at the local library trying to print prove that something had occurred. Something that would have certainly made the local newspapers, something that would prove that Karen and Ellen actually existed. At that point, though, there was no real reason behind nor endgame to my search. I just needed to know that these letters were real. I needed to know that these people existed in the most cynical sense you could say. I was looking for proof that the idiocy chronicled in these letters was real, that we were laughing at real people in the most heartfelt sense. These letters and Karen and Ellen had become a part of my life, a part of my friends lives. Something that brought people together and then was passed on. Each time we sat down to read these letters there were new faces eager to hear from Karen and Ellen and Mark. These letters had created a small and strange community. And so while yes, I wanted proof that these idiots were real, for some reason it also felt like the community wasn't as strong or valuable or true if the letters themselves weren't true, which says a lot about the ways in which we see and exist in the world.