Retrospective 3: Darkness

Summary

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Podcast Summary

True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode: Retrospective 3: Darkness
Host: Josh Hallmark (Studio BOTH/AND)
Release Date: July 23, 2026

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Overview

The episode "Retrospective 3: Darkness" is a deeply introspective look at the origins and evolution of the podcast, focusing on the complexities of covering the Israel Keyes case, the personal impact on host Josh Hallmark, and the broader cultural fascination with true crime. Hallmark reflects on the emotional journey of starting the podcast, his struggles with mental health, and his motivations for digging into the darkness surrounding Keyes and the true crime genre.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting the Beginning: Ten Years of True Crime Bullsh

• Josh Hallmark celebrates ten years of podcasting, reflecting on the initial reactions and resistance to the show’s tone and approach (06:00–09:30).
• Hallmark notes how true crime audiences have changed, with a more nuanced understanding of complex ethical questions around empathy for perpetrators and commercialization of crime (08:15).

“Back in 2018, people recoiled at me asking whether Keyes deserved empathy... in the following 10 years, our feelings... have changed and become much more nuanced.”
— Josh Hallmark (08:17)

2. Personal Darkness and Mental Health

• Hallmark shares for the first time his mental health crisis, partially fueled by the intensity of investigating the Keyes case and his own unresolved trauma (09:40–15:00).
• A harrowing account of his hospital stay and subsequent therapy reveals how immersion in true crime can blur lines between obsession and self-harm.

“I spent 24 hours with an intimate view of both mental distress and our mental health system, specifically how broken it is… this is the very first time I’m publicly speaking about it.”
— Josh Hallmark (13:20)

• This personal journey heavily influenced the shape and honesty of the first episode—making darkness itself a central theme (14:30–16:00).

3. The Origins of a True Crime Obsession

• Hallmark recounts his formative years in the 1980s Bay Area, where infamous cases like Zodiac and Jonestown were part of the cultural backdrop (17:41–18:45).
• He describes discovering Israel Keyes through office conversations and notes the shift from private to public discourse on true crime, enabled by podcasts and community (18:45–19:20).

4. The Israel Keyes Case: Uniqueness and Modus Operandi

• Keyes is profiled as a careful, calculated killer who avoided patterns, stymied law enforcement, and maintained anonymity through meticulous planning (23:36–24:23).
• Discussion with guests examines how Keyes was different: he had no victim profile, used kill kits, committed crimes across states, and was obsessed with missing persons (24:24–26:22).
• Keyes’s fascination with missing persons is explored, with Dr. Katherine Ramsland positing a possible paraphilic connection (30:28–33:12).

“I think it’s fair to say that Israel Keyes had a fetish about missing people, which is why he wanted to ensure that his victims didn’t get found...”
— Dr. Katherine Ramsland (32:25)

5. The Impact of Obsession:

• Hallmark details the consuming nature of the research: creating maps, absorbing FBI files, and confronting the limits of what is knowable in true crime (36:58–38:21).
• Raises ethics questions about the role of the investigator and the commercialization/consumption of tragedy:

“There was something so disturbing about the frenetic excitement... how true crime had made actual murder somewhat titillating...”
— Josh Hallmark (39:18)

6. Why True Crime? Voices from the Community

• A roundtable of podcasters and listeners share personal stories about what drew them to true crime and what keeps them hooked (42:56–49:42):

  • Family connections to crime stories
  • Early exposure via books, TV, and community tragedies
  • The mystery, taboo, and need for psychological understanding
  • The appeal of real-life stories over fiction
  • Fascination with the unknown and the why behind violence

• Discussion of favorite or most disturbing cases, with Keyes cited as particularly terrifying due to randomness and lack of motive (51:21).

“...if somebody is just randomly murdered, that’s terrifying to me... that I could just be picked for no reason, just because I was at the wrong place at the... wrong time.”
— Listener (51:35)

7. The Unknowable and the Ethical Edge

• Hallmark admits that certainty about Keyes’s full list of victims will likely never be achieved but commits to "informed and reasonable conclusions."
• Emphasizes his evolving objective: not just to fill in historical blanks, but to interrogate true crime’s effect on creators, victims’ families, and audiences (38:30–39:45; 40:41).

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Hallmark’s first public disclosure of his psychiatric hospitalization (13:20)
• Katherine Ramsland on Keyes’s paraphilia for missing persons (32:25)
• Reflection on the ethics of true crime consumption and reporting (39:18)
• Audience responses about what makes true crime captivating (46:55; 47:22; 48:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 06:00–09:30 – Josh Hallmark reflects on backlash and cultural change.
• 09:40–15:00 – Hallmark’s mental health crisis detailed.
• 17:41–19:20 – Origins of true crime interest and Keyes discovery.
• 23:36–26:22 – Hallmark and guests discuss Keyes’s methods.
• 30:28–33:12 – Dr. Katherine Ramsland on paraphilia and Keyes’s psyche.
• 36:58–39:45 – Research obsession and ethical quandaries.
• 42:56–49:42 – Community roundtable: what draws people to true crime.
• 51:21–51:55 – Listeners discuss fear and fascination with Keyes’s randomness.

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Conclusion & Tone

“Retrospective 3: Darkness” stands out for its radical honesty, direct engagement with the ethical dimensions of true crime, and Hallmark’s vulnerability. The episode is both a meditation on obsession and darkness, as well as a sociological portrait of true crime fandom.
Hallmark states that while the project began as a quest for answers about Israel Keyes, it has ultimately become an exploration of darkness itself—how it affects investigators, listeners, and the broader culture.

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For listeners new and old, this episode offers both a window into the roots of the podcast and a thoughtful critique of true crime as a genre, balancing human darkness with empathy and transparency.

Transcript

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[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

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[Bretzky]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

This is a studio both and production. As you know we are celebrating my 10th year in podcasting and we're capping that celebration off with a three day event here in the Berkshires over the weekend of September 25th. There will be studio sessions, live shows, a Bravo Town hall, Berkshire activities like foraging, wine tasting, museum visits and more and tons of special guests. We'll do the Karen and Ellen Letters live starring Amanda Jacobson from Wine and Crime, Tawny Platus famous renowned voice actress and Chris Brayton from the More gooder than Podcast. I'll be doing a very special first time ever live show of the Pact with special guest Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. We'll do a panel discussion on Unsafe Spaces featuring me, Kaz, Charlie Worrell from Crimelines, and Justin and Aaron from Generation yes. There will even be a live episode of Our Americana and a very cool playlist by TCB episode featuring me and the entire research team. Guests will get to check out my new speakeasy the Green Room, tour the studio and get elbow deep in the research process. This is a once in a lifetime event where you'll get to enjoy the Berkshires, share fun activities with the podcast hosts you love the most and and really dig into podcasting and all the shows I have produced along with my friends. Book your tickets today by clicking the link in the show notes and if that doesn't work for you, why don't you think about if not now, when? For example, we are going to the Galapagos Islands January 11th through 17th. Haven't you always wanted to go? And if not now, when will you go? And wouldn't you rather go during the winter here in the States to escape to the warmth with like minded new friends who love True Crime bullshit as much as you do, but also love the experience of travel, seeing animals and getting away from it all these TROVA trips have made me lifelong friends. They are such a great way to meet new people, get out of your world and shake things up. And like I said, if you're not going to go to the Galapagos now, will you ever book your trip today by clicking the link in the show notes? And now here's the show. Listening to the first episode of True Crime Bullshit is an odd and often emotional experience for me. There was a lot going on in my life at the time, a lot that heavily impacted my work on the show and what the first episode would eventually become. Hell, who I would eventually become, I guess. As a whole, I'm neither disappointed with nor proud of the episode. I think it asked some very tough and important questions, perhaps questions that people weren't really willing to challenge themselves with at the time. Thus the very strong pushback I got. I think in the following 10 years, our feelings surrounding and the complexities of True Crime have changed and become much more nuanced. But back in 2018, people recoiled at me asking whether Keyes deserved empathy. People were incensed that I was deliberately referring to Keyes as Izzy, the name he went by and was referred to. And people were annoyed that I was asking about the general public's interest in and commercialization of True Crime, despite the fact that they were both things I was explicitly doing at the time and continue to There was also, of course, the fact that I was openly gay and discussed being assaulted, albeit very briefly, on the podcast. People made opportunities of this to unleash their most vile homophobia onto me in emails, comments and podcast reviews. I was accused of being in love with and or wanting to fuck Israel Keys, a dead serial killer. I was told I was too much of a pussy to truly tell this story. The word faggot very frequently misspelled came up a lot on social media and in my email, but digging so deep into what true crime was and being so open about who I was were never part of the original outline of the show. When I made the decision to tell the Keys story back in 2016, it was going to be exactly that, a retelling. But then life made some unexpected changes to me and my approach. In mid-2016, I started pouring myself into the Keys case. I was spending about 10 hours a day, every day, listening and re listening to his FBI interviews. When I wasn't doing that, I was on NAMUS and the Charlie Project for hours at a time. I was taking notes, making maps, reading about psychopathy and profiling and crime. We had moved to Brooklyn in October of 2015 and despite trying my hardest, I could never really make a life for myself there. What I'd learned years later in therapy betterhelp.com TCB was that new York City was essentially a powder keg for my cptsd. Anytime I left our Bed Stuy apartment, I was overcome by sometimes even paralyzing anxiety. I started developing nervous tics, weird fixations on the zippers of my coats, picking at my fingernails, being hypervigilant when out in public. I was nervous all the time. So I stayed in and worked on the podcast. And so the majority of my waking hours were spent with Israel Keys in his interviews, dissecting his words, searching for answers, looking for potential victims, trying to make connections day in and day out, often 10 to 14 hours a day, every day. And then I had a mental health emergency. I woke up in a hospital bed at Woodhall Hospital and upon waking up was almost immediately rushed to the psychiatric ward for what would be a 24 hour hold. Of course, no one would tell me that at the time I didn't know where I was being taken or that I'd be there for the next 24 hours. Those 24 hours would easily become the worst 24 hours of my life. The psych ward at Wood hall is essentially two giant rooms, one that is mostly empty and another with a TV. And about 10 beds. There were probably 20 or so other patients in there at the time. There was nowhere to clean yourself, nothing to brush your teeth with. Bathroom use was observed and the staff didn't talk to you other than a five minute meeting with a psychologist on the television for the duration of my stay was a blind spot marathon. Yes, they were blaring a psychological crime thriller. In the psych ward, I took the sole available bed and waited, still not knowing how long I'd be there or even why I was there. I worried that at some point someone would try to take that bed from me. I closed my eyes, tried to block out the tv, and just listened to everything else happening around me. Out of both fear and self preservation. No one in the facility was allowed to take outside medication. And what that resulted in, the absolute worst part of those 24 hours was listening to people arrive in coherence. Although often coherent, distress slowly devolve into madness, psychosis, paranoia. People who arrived lucid at hour one or two were screaming, crying, fighting by hour four or five. And this happened over and over again. I got out of my bed exactly three times. Once to go to the bathroom, once to eat a cheese sandwich. I hate cheese. But knew if I did anything that could be perceived as abnormal or unhealthy, that it would likely mean I'd have to spend even more time there. And then finally, when Andrew was given clearance to visit, I will never for the rest of my life forget how distressed and upset he looked. That night, I spent 24 hours with an intimate view of both mental distress and our mental health system, specifically how broken it is. And when I finally got to leave at about 11am the following morning, I left more shell shocked and distressed than I was when I entered. I stayed in bed for the next two days and we never told anyone other than very close family. In fact, this is the very first time I'm publicly speaking about it, and it's the first time in years I've spoken about it at all. When I eventually got out of bed, I spent a lot of time evaluating my life, my choices, my relationships, my priorities. I investigated how I could exist and thrive. I spent hours picking apart my past and all the decisions and roads that got me to where I was. I tried desperately to come to terms with how the me that I knew could be the me that ended up in that place. And when I started to get back to work on the podcast, I had some really tough questions for myself. How do I straddle the dichotomy of my obsession as both a path toward personal fulfillment and one of self harm. Why was I why are we so willing to let darkness in? How can I do this thing that simultaneously makes me so happy and so anxious? And that's how Episode one became what it is. I needed to tell this story that I'd spent so much time with gamble my mental health for the work I'd invested myself in. But I also needed to understand and discuss our obsession with darkness. I needed to know what True Crime was doing to us individually and writ large. I also knew that I needed to live with radical honesty and transparency. I couldn't hold things in anymore for fear of burdening or discomforting others. I couldn't live in shame anymore. I had to articulate my suffering in a way that emancipated me and inspired and empowered others. Less than a year later, I pressed publish on that first episode of True Crime. Bullshit. It belonged to the world now. To a lesser extent, so did I. For better and worse. And now so does. I am turning 45 this year, which is harder to say than it is to feel. Because at this age you feel everything. 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[Josh Hallmark]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

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[Bretzky]

My concern the problem is nowadays, the more stuff my name is attached to, the more likely it is that somebody's gonna try to do some kind of stupid freaking TV special. Or you know. You know how it is nowadays. Like with all this true crime bullshit that people are obsessed with.

[Josh Hallmark]

This is true crime bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark, and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys. It started when I was a kid. You see, I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area in the 1980s on the heels of the Zodiac, the massacre at Jonestown, the murders of Leonard Lake and Charles Ng, back when Unsolved Mysteries and America's Most Wanted were becoming primetime staples. I guess you could say true crime has always been a cultural touchpoint for my generation. Of course, up until recently it was mostly only talked about with hushed tones in the backs of bars with your weird friends. And then podcasts and investigation Discovery created a community where who killed Hae Min Lee and what happened to Maura Murray became water cooler debates, and over time we all became more and more comfortable casually talking about murder. That's actually where I first heard about Israel Keys at the office coffee maker. I had just started a new job in Seattle and quickly went about identifying my own weird murder friend. I don't exactly remember how we came out to each other, but we soon found ourselves deconstructing episodes of Disappeared each Tuesday morning over our cubicle walls. We were both fascinated by disappearances, how someone could just vanish. We're trained to crave answers and tidy conclusions, and I think that's why these cases can so easily become obsessions. We need to know what happened. And that's how she knew I'd be just as terrified of Israel as she was. He'd just been arrested, and while his identity had been concealed from most of the world, his roots in Seattle led to enough local chatter that a story made his way to our desks. In an attempt to get information about his other crimes, the FBI made a deal with Israel that they wouldn't release his name to the media as long as he continued to work with them. We'll get into this deal more in future episodes, but if you hadn't heard of him before now, well, this is probably why very little is actually known about Israel's crimes as we'll explore. He was incredibly meticulous in concealing his activities and avoiding being caught. Essentially, we knew he was a serial killer with victims all across the country who killed at random. He had no victim profile. Israel contradicted a lot of what we know about serial killers, mostly because he had studied them.

[Bretzky]

So I guess I identify most, or my favorite, if you have to put it that way, would be the ones that I identify most with.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

Yeah, that's a fair way to say it.

[Bretzky]

I don't know, maybe just going off of what I've read. Ted Bundy, maybe. I don't know, just because I don't. I don't have a lot of respect for someone because. Because of the way they lived, I guess.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

I don't know.

[Bretzky]

I like reading about all of them. But when did you start reading about them? When did you realize. I mean, did you start reading about them because you were curious about you, or did you. Was it a study guide, so to speak? I mean, that'd be a weird question, too. Did you learn things from. To do not do, or was it just curiosity of. Do you have anything in common with them?

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Is that.

[Bretzky]

That you were looking for, do you think? Well, the first book I read was. I think it was called Mindhunter, and it was written by an FBI profiler, John Douglas.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

Right.

[Bretzky]

Yeah. I read that years and years ago, probably when I was 15 or 16.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

Maybe.

[Bretzky]

I was. Yeah. Somewhat disturbed by it, just because. I don't know. It's always been that way. It's always felt like I was kind of reading about myself. And a lot of those books, those are interesting names. It's all interesting.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

Why didn't you like btk?

[Josh Hallmark]

He was a hag.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

How many number of years he seemed

[Josh Hallmark]

to get away with.

[Bretzky]

He got away with it for a long time. That was the most disappointing thing about him is that he never had to get caught. He just got bored. So like he was too much, he was too soft in his old age to actually go out and do anything again. So he decided to go the publicity route without actually doing anything again. That's what was disappointing. He was also pretty unusual in that he was able to stop. Plus I saw the live prison interview and my impression of him, his personality, is that he was actually sorry for the things that he had done. Younger kind of like repented or thought he was repenting of his ways kind of thing. I think it was for real because I honestly, I don't think if it was. I don't think if he really didn't believe that he was repenting of his sins, I don't think he ever would have stopped. Because he stopped for like 20 years. I don't know. In my mind that's impossible. Why do you say that? Just because of the way he, the way he killed people, you know, it's a pretty obsessive compulsive act to kill someone that way. It's not like you're a gang banger doing a drive by or something.

[Josh Hallmark]

Israel learned from their mistakes. He was incredibly controlled. He planned his murders well in advance, sometimes even years ahead. He had kill kits hidden all over the United States. And rather than seeking out victims, he let his victims come to him. He would travel to remote areas all across the country, paying in all cash, flying into airports hundreds of miles away from his destination, all so as to leave no real trace of where he'd actually been. He tempered his urges by robbing banks, burglarizing homes and committing random arsons. That's how he was able to stay so controlled in his killings. In fact, the only reason he was caught is because he eventually strayed from all that.

[Bretzky]

Well, back when I was smart, I would. Do it. I would let them come to me. I don't understand. Just remote area, you know,

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

you go

[Bretzky]

to a remote area that's not anywhere near where you live, but that other people go to as well. You might not get exactly what you're not much to choose from in a manner of speaking. But there's also no witnesses, really, there's nobody else around, so. And then when they, when they disappear, a lot of times nobody's really surprised. Because it happens all the time. But what I'm trying to figure out, so. But if somebody's camping in a remote spot, someone's going to know that they didn't come home. Right. So did you have other things you looked for in a victim? No, it was, you know, it's just you ask me what type of people I would pick or. Yeah, what type. Or whether there was a way. I didn't really have a type. Okay. I had preference, but it wasn't. What's the preference? Well, lightweight.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

Is that because of attraction or because of disposal?

[Bretzky]

Yeah, it kind of makes it easier.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Okay.

[Bretzky]

But you know, it's not. It's not a deal breaker.

[Josh Hallmark]

The other thing that kept Israel under the radar for so long is he was very good at hiding bodies. In fact, as of today, only one of his victims remains have ever been recovered. And that recovery only happened because Israel guided the FBI to her body. Even in multiple cases where he's told the FBI where the bodies are, they still haven't been able to recover them. I mentioned missing people before, how easy it is to become obsessed with missing persons cases. Well, it turns out Israel had that same obsession.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

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[Lady Luck]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

In the FBI files, they found images of over 40 missing persons on his computers. And a large majority of those missing persons can not be attributed to Israel. Either they happen during his adolescence or before he was born, or they have just been proven not to be him. One case in particular is Susan Powell, whom we know was her husband. And I wonder why Israel would spend so much time looking into all these missing persons.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

Well, it certainly could be that he had developed a paraphilia or a sexual deviance regarding missing people.

[Josh Hallmark]

This is Dr. Katherine Ramsland, a renowned criminal psychologist best known for her work with Dennis Rader, the serial killer better known as btk. Catherine has studied Israel pretty extensively and just last week appeared on Dr. Oz talking about him. We'll be hearing more from Kathryn throughout the series.

[Dr. Katherine Ramsland]

I think he was fascinated with it. He wanted to, you know, learn the details of it, not necessarily to assist what he was doing so much as to fantasize about them and maybe even to imagine himself as being the one who was responsible for them missing, even though, you know, in a number of cases, clearly he. He's not. And we do have suspects, you know, very good suspects, and some of them like Susan Powell. But I do think that maybe there is something in his sexual fantasies that is related to missing people such that he would collect these stories. It's kind of like people who have a fascination with car crashes. So they have all these car crash photos. In fact, we know a serial killer, Michael Swango, a medical serial killer, who had that fascination. He collected all kinds of photographs of car crashes from newspapers because that was his fetish. And I think it's fair to say that Israel Keys had a fetish about missing people, which is why he wanted to ensure that his victims didn't get found. That fascination is unusual. And paraphilias is a very unique area of study because we have thousands of paraphilias. And these are things when someone is developing sexually, and especially males, they become attached to objects or experiences that become part of the arousal mechanism that can range from anything from, you know, having a fascination with high heel shoes to reading the Bible to. We had one serial killer had a fascination with. With how it sounded when metal hit flesh. And so he developed this fetish for train wrecks. And he would even engineer train wrecks so you could sit on the hill and watch them and have an orgasmic type of experience. This sounds very bizarre, but it's all about what's going on during the person's development. And I firmly believe that Israel Keys had a fetish for missing people.

[Josh Hallmark]

All this is to say that when I first heard about Israel that day in the office break room, I was immediately fascinated. I set up Google alerts on him and waited and waited for seven months. The FBI's first press release came over a year after his capture. That's how committed they were to the deal they made with him. They kept their promise until the day he died. He killed himself after he was accidentally issued a razor in prison. And we'll get more into that incredibly bizarre event in a Future episode. The FBI's press release reads as Deidre

[Grainger Commercial Announcer]

Fikes, special agent in charge of the Federal Bureau of Investigation for the state of Alaska, announced yesterday a timeline of events in the Israel Keys investigation to include information about possible unsolved homicides and other crimes. Anyone with information concerning Keyes is encouraged to contact the FBI at 1-800- CALL FBI. Based upon the investigation conducted following his arrest in March 2012, Israel Keys is believed to have committed multiple kidnappings and murders across the country between 2001 and March 2012. Keyes lived in Washington state from 2001 to March 2007, at which time he moved to Alaska. While living in Alaska, Keyes traveled extensively while working as a general contractor. In a series of interviews with law enforcement, Keys described significant planning and preparation for his murders, reflecting a meticulous and organized approach to his crimes. Keyes admitted responsibility for robbing several banks during this time frame, two of which investigators have corroborated. Keyes used the proceeds from his bank robberies to pay for his travel along with money he made as a general contractor. Keyes also admitted to traveling to various locations to leave supplies he planned to use in future crimes. Keyes stated that he buried caches throughout the United States. The FBI recovered two caches buried by Keyes, one in Eagle River, Alaska and one near Blake Falls Reservoir in New York. The caches contained weapons and other items used to dispose of bodies. Keyes indicated that other caches he buried throughout the U.S. contained weapons, money and items used to dispose of victims. Investigators believe Keyes did not know any of his victims prior to their abductions. He described several remote locations that he frequented to look for victimsparks, campgrounds, trailheads, cemeteries, boating areas, etc. Keyes also admitted to frequenting prostitutes during his travels and it is unknown at this time if he met any of his victims in this manner. Keyes indicated the victims are male and female and range in age from late teens to the elderly. Keyes told the investigators his victim's disappearance received little if any media coverage. Investigators believe Keyes is responsible for 11 homicides. Keyes stated his murders occurred in less than 10 states but did not disclose all of the locations. Keyes described crossing into multiple states during the abduction, murder and disposal of a victim. It is not unlikely that in some cases Keyes abducted a victim from one state, transported the victim to another state where he or she was murdered, and potentially drove the victim to a third state to dispose of the body. Keyes admitted to burglarizing 20 to 30 homes throughout the United States and talked about committing arson as a means to cover up a homicide. The following is a timeline that articulates the information provided by Keyes and known to law enforcement about Keyes criminal activities. It also includes travel dates and locations that investigators believe Keyes may have committed a homicide.

[Josh Hallmark]

The timeline is a lengthy and broad list of Israel's travels over a 14 year period and we'll spend a lot of time pouring over it. A map of these travels has covered my dining room table for the past year. I've stared at it over meals and during research breaks. I've come to know this map very well. I've sort of committed it to memory. That's the thing. After the press release, the Google alerts were few and far between and were mostly a whole lot of nothing. As time went on, I couldn't believe there were no updates, no bodies recovered, no theories, no witnesses. Much like his victims. It was as though the entire case of Israel Keys had just disappeared. But I couldn't get it out of my mind. And so, two and a half years ago, I decided to create this podcast. I began meticulously studying Israel Keys. I became well acquainted with every missing person in every place he'd ever been. I studied what I could of his childhood, his upbringing, his religious background. I submitted as many Freedom of Information act requests as I could afford. And I became more and more obsessed with, at the very least, identifying his victims. Here is an ugly truth that I want to get out right from the start. We will probably never know for certain who his victims were. We can come to very informed and reasonable conclusions, and we will throughout this series. But without bodies, we will never know for sure. And in the almost seven years since his arrest, there's only been one in the years that I've been investigating Israel and working on this podcast, my objective has evolved a bit. There have been moments that have drastically changed how I look at all this. There have been moments that have made me severely question the ethics in doing all of this, and we'll be exploring this throughout the podcast. True Crime Bullshit is as much about true crime in general as it is about Israel Keys. Here's a few examples of how researching this case has changed my perspective on the genre. About a year ago, I came across a post in a True Crime related Facebook group. Someone had posted that their neighbor had been murdered the night before and they were watching through their window as the police investigated the scene. They would be giving Facebook updates as the case progressed. There was something so disturbing about the frenetic excitement of the post, how True Crime had made actual murder somewhat titillating to the extent that being around it or a part of it was now so provocative and almost admirable, which made me question if my investigation into Israel was any different. Then there was the slow burn of going through the FBI files. There's over 2,000 pages, which includes everything from chain of custody to warrants and searches, to interviews with friends and family to tipline reports. Basically everything from the truly mundane to case shattering evidence. In reading these files, I came to know everyone involved with the case quite well, and the story of Israel Key slowly started to include the stories of each of these people. The FBI agents, his friends and family, the friends and family of his victims and presumed victims, the people calling into the tip lines, and all the missing people and their families, whether related or not, who came up during the investigation. There was so much humanity in all of this, and over time I became just as compelled by that as I was by the case itself. And as I began reaching out to people, I started to wonder if it was even fair for me to be dredging up these dark and sometimes traumatizing pieces of their histories. Of their histories. Was it even mine to look into? My point is, the more time I spent with this case, the more it made me question everything I felt and thought I knew about true crime and how it affected everyone involved, including its observers and consumers. So I reached out to some friends who host true crime podcasts along with some of their listeners to get a sense of how this genre impacts us and why we're all so captivated by it. We'll be hearing from them throughout the series, but this is where we started.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Lady Luck]

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[Josh Hallmark]

When did you develop an interest in true crime?

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

Oh, early. I am definitely my grandmother's granddaughter. My mom's mom always loved like true crime books and then obviously as that kind of genre evolved, she's very much into Court TV and true crime television. She is in her late the ripe age of late 80s, so podcasting is not even close to being on her radar. But I just feel like this genre has exploded even more with the introduction of podcasts, which are such a weirdly intimate way to learn about true crime. And then there's all these other little communities that you can join like through the podcasting world on social media. So I've been just kind of along for the ride as it's developed. I definitely got like a thirst for it with the first season of Serial, which I know is very much akin to what a lot of other people did, but I'm like an old school Forensic Files fan. And yeah, true crime novels are the jam.

I think I've always sort of had an interest, at least a passing interest in society, the system, trials and serial killers. I used to make dark ambient music back in the day when I was a teenager and I would splice in but news reports and serial killers talking into the music. So from my earliest memory I've had some sort of interest in there. But when I started the Generation Y, I actually went to jury duty for a first degree murder trial. And that's what really I guess set me off or opened me up to the idea of true crime in a podcast.

So I think my very first interest was when I was really young and my mom used to take me me to Barnes and Noble and let me pick out books and I found this Jack the Ripper book and I was like, ooh, I'm gonna read this. And then after that I think that my real love probably blossomed, I'd say three years ago when I was going on a cruise and I wanted to do a deep dive into the Titanic and I found an episode that Generation Y did on the Titanic. Then they did an episode on this girl who went missing on a cruise ship. And then I kept listen to their catalog and I was like, I forgot how much I love true crime. Then I just started listening to more and more podcasts and then decided to start my own with a friend as

[Commercial Announcer]

far back as Jonestown and which is what, in the 70s? It was 40 some years ago and I saw.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

I was nine when I got into that.

[Commercial Announcer]

But that just, just floored me. The pictures, seeing all the bodies, it just. It just struck a chord with me for some reason.

[Lady Luck]

I think I've always been kind of interested in those things that are mysterious. I come from a town where there was a very famous murder. So that really piqued my interest. I've just always been kind of interested in what makes people tick. And it is beyond me why someone would kill someone.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

I was probably like, I was born in 87, so. And when JonBenet Ramsey passed away, I was 8 or 9. And I just remember being at the grocery store and seeing her picture everywhere. And always ask my parents, like, what happened? Or, you know, what is murder? And then that's when they had to sit down. My dad had to explain to me what murder was. And I just remember finding. I was like, what people do that? Since then it's just been, you know, all the big cases after cases of being really young and making my parents true crime books that they would randomly read and probably not supposed to because I had more questions, but started when I was pretty young and it just kind of stuck to it.

[Josh Hallmark]

And what do you think is so captivating for people about true crime?

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

People like a taboo subject and now there's this like, intricate way to connect with other people that also like the taboo subject of true crime. And there's just something more titillating about like a delicious mystery that's true where it's like, it could happen to you. I know that sounds a little sick, but I think it's just human nature for people to be like, oh God, you know, I'm even more entrenched in this because it's real.

This might be a poor comparison, but I think that whether it be like a soap opera or some sort of fictionalized TV series where you get involved in these characters lives. Well, with true crime, it's real. It's real life stories that are hinged on life and death.

I think people are obsessed with the why. Why do these people do the things that they do? And I think that the unknown is so fascinating to us. And most of us don't know what it's like to kill someone or to have that urge. So it's really interesting to look into true crime and try to figure out why they kill.

[Lady Luck]

It's the mystery and it's why someone would do that. I feel like I am an incredibly honest person to a fault, and I get myself in trouble because of how honest I am. So doing something like committing a murder and then going around having to hide it and lie constantly, I just can't wrap my head around it.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

I don't know. I think it's always been captivating. I think that now we just have a platform to talk about it. With social media being so popular, just even older cases that you hear about, you know, from different podcasts, it sounds like everybody's always been interested in it. There's just more of a platform.

[Josh Hallmark]

And is there a specific type of true crime story that's most interesting to you?

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

I personally want a hook. I want to. I want a story that's got some kind of wacky detail in it, whether it be a lack of evidence or something the murderer does. That's just completely out of line with what you would expect with. With Israel Keys. That guy, his M.O. and his motives were definitely not what we've seen from other serial killers.

I mean, I've said this before. I'll say it again. Like, the more taboo and, like, horrifying it is, the more I'm probably gonna be fascinated by it. For me, personally, one of my favorite episodes that we did of whining crime is about cannibalism, something I could never imagine doing and then learning about it was so fascinating and gross and creepy, and it just, like, did it for me.

[Lady Luck]

You know, I've always kind of liked the macabre. So the mysteries where we don't know who has committed these crimes. It piqued my interest, like, thinking about the Maura Murray case, like, what happened there, what is the true story behind it. Stuff like that really interests me.

[Commercial Announcer]

Probably serial killers. Jeffrey Dahmer is an enigma to me because I think if he had had sources to discuss his homosexuality, he may have found a better outlet, and he may not, because he was very remorseful of what he did. You know, I kind of feel bad for him at times because of that. But just the serial killer, how they can do it, how they can live their lives knowing that they've taken so many lives and seemingly be okay with it.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

I have a not favorite type. I hate unsolved cases, but if I had to pick a favorite, it would probably be the serial killer cases. Just because you get to see them evolve and figure out their motive. And it's also sometimes easier to find out why they do the things that they do.

[Josh Hallmark]

Is there a serial killer who Scares you the most.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

In Kansas City, there was the Kansas City Butcher, and his name was Robert Berdella or Bob Berdella. I personally think that he was one of the most heinous, twisted serial killers

out there, Gacy, because clowns are the fucking worst.

[Lady Luck]

The Golden State Killer, I mean, he is caught now, but that's just absolutely chilling.

[Commercial Announcer]

Probably either Gacy, the ones that go after the young boys, John Wayne Gacy and Dean Corll. Anything against kids just is wrong.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

Ted Bundy, I always, like, found this weird obsession with. I mean, I think a lot of people do.

Israel Keys, he was so calculated with the burying kill kits and picking victims at random, that I think that's what makes it so. Makes his cases so hard to solve, is that he had absolutely no tie to these people. He wasn't stalking them for days before, like BTK did. He just picked people randomly. And if somebody is just randomly murdered, that's terrifying to me that I could just be picked for no reason, just because I was at the wrong place at the, I guess, wrong time.

[Josh Hallmark]

On March 13, 2012 at 11:45am, Israel Keys was pulled over outside of Lufkin, Texas, while on his way to his sister's wedding.

[True Crime Podcast Listener/Guest]

But you had done a really good job, though, of distancing yourself. I mean, yeah, I didn't even from reading the news articles, they. They were on one totally different track from, you know. So you had done a really good job of distancing yourself. Were you worried that you were gonna. They were gonna connect it to you?

[Bretzky]

No, I just. My thing was always not to have anything in case anything ever was connected to me. But then, yeah, like I said, I got kind of hooked on the publicity, and I would be at home late at night or whatever and be like, well, I wonder if there's any morning stories, you know, like a couple glasses of whiskey, like, I'm gonna check on that. And then I do the searches and read and, you know, start commenting on stuff. And I knew that I was. I knew that I was getting stupid,

[Josh Hallmark]

I guess,

[Bretzky]

but I was still planning ahead. I never had intention of ever being caught. And so if I could just go back to. When you're traveling in Texas, where you went. I know you went to Houston, New Orleans, back to Dallas, and then you said you went south on those days. 13th, 14th, and did driving around south. Did you stay in Texas? Yeah, I was. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what I was thinking. I was. Like. I said, I was kind of. Kind of out of control.

[Josh Hallmark]

This is where Israel's story ends and where our story begins. Tomorrow on True Crime Bullshit, we'll discuss how Israel's final victim led to his arrest, how initially the FBI got it wrong, and the turmoil it brought to that victim's families, and who exactly is Rail Keys was? If you enjoy True Crime Bullshit so far, stop by Apple Podcasts and rate and review it. I'd like to thank Dr. Katherine Ramsland, Laney Hobbs from True Crime Fan Club for bringing the FBI press release to life, True Crime podcasters and good friends Justin from Generation Y, Amanda from Wine and Crime and Ailey from Murder Road Trip along with with True Crime listeners Stephanie, Renee and Kendra. This episode was researched, written and produced by me, your host Josh Hallmark with music by William Hellfire, Wife, Radical Face and Koshka.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

What's going on everyone?

[Commercial Announcer]

It's bluff here.

[Podcast Host (possibly Josh Hallmark or co-host)]

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[Josh Hallmark]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Grainger Commercial Announcer]

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