S7 Prep: Celia Darlene Barnes - part 1

Summary

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True Crime Bullsh**, Season 7 Prep: Celia Darlene Barnes - Part 1

Host: Josh Hallmark
Podcast Date: August 14, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode delves into the methodology and possible overlooked victims of serial killer Israel Keyes, focusing specifically on disappearances in and around national and state parks in the Pacific Northwest—many of which might fit Keyes’ MO. Host Josh Hallmark analyzes data, shares case file revelations, and discusses both the challenge of identifying Keyes’ victims and the particular disappearance of Celia Darlene Barnes, setting the stage for a deeper investigation in future episodes.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Keyes’ Hunting Ground: National and State Parks

• Low Probability, High Obscurity
  • Despite national parks' popularity, murder within their borders is exceedingly rare (~1 in 2 million visitor chance), making it an ideal setting for undetected crimes.
  • “Picking people out of the woods is about as low profile as it gets for a serial killer.” (Josh Hallmark, 06:21)
• Keyes' Early Methods
  • Exploited outdoor recreation areas; most Washington murders took place on state and federal land.
  • Keyes would often go hunting or fishing, blending in while scouting for opportunities.

    “It’s win-win. I’m out hunting or fishing and if the opportunity comes up, then take it. If it doesn’t, it’s not like you’re out anything.”
    — Keyes (interview excerpt, 02:56)

2. Other Serial Killers & Park Murders

• Multiple other notorious killers used public lands:
  • Gary Michael Hilton (“National Forest Serial Killer”)
  • David Carpenter (“Trailside Killer”)
  • Randall Lee Smith, Ivan Milat, Robert Garrow
• These killers got caught due to mistakes Keyes intentionally avoided (e.g., localized dump sites, known victims).

3. Disappearing Without a Trace

• Hiker and visitor disappearances are frequently attributed to accidents or suicide, obscuring potential crimes.
• Only one of Keyes’ presumed victims has ever been recovered.
• Example: Paul Lemaitre disappearance after a race in Alaska—body never recovered, cited by the FBI as what most Keyes victims may resemble.

4. The Data Crisis and Missing Indigenous Victims

• Lack of sufficient federal data: of 5,712 missing or murdered Indigenous women and girls reported in 2016, only 116 logged in the Department of Justice database.
• Many disappearances go unreported, especially among Indigenous populations living near large, unpoliced expanses where Keyes worked/traveled.
  • Keyes’ job with the Makah tribe granted him access to 30,000+ acres of tribal land.
• “There isn’t a single federal agency that has comprehensive data on how many Indigenous people are murdered or missing.” (13:15)

5. Case Studies: Potential Keyes Victims

• General Observations (19:26–28:09)
  • Most missing in parks were men; many ruled potential suicides.
  • Host details the complexity this brings to identifying potential Keyes victims.
• Detailed Disappearances Matching MO & Timeline
  1. Gilbert Gilman (Olympic National Park, 2006)
     • Extraordinary military and academic background, likely not intent on a dangerous hike.
     • FBI and records rule Keyes out due to marathon alibi (misdated—possible confusion) but host trusts the official exclusion.
  2. Delmar Wayne Sample (Lake Quinault, 2005)
     • Disappearance overlaps with gap in Keyes’ timeline; FBI considered Keyes but found only Sample's DNA in the car.
  3. Gregory Seamans Brown (Okanagan Wenatchee National Forest, 2005)
     • Very little data; dates align with Keyes’ timeline gaps.
  4. Steven Michael Mason (Olympic National Forest, 2006)
     • Camper left on his own after a domestic dispute; Keyes possibly in the area, but no definitive overlap.
  5. Celia Darlene Barnes (House of Mystery, Gold Hill, Oregon, 2002)
     • Went missing after separating from her sister on a hike; scent traced to highway, found walking stick. Family waited 30 hours to report missing due to prior embarrassment over similar incident.
  6. Roy Lauren Stevens (Waldo Lake, Willamette National Forest, 2005)
     • Disappeared after work, car found abandoned, sparse official search, multiple jurisdictions, family alleges lack of police interest due to unsubstantiated drug rumors.

6. Keyes’ Evolution & Alibi Techniques

• Early crimes: blended leisure and opportunity (“either fishing or out hunting. That’s always... the most comfortable scenario.” — Keyes, 02:49)
• Later crimes: less patience and control, more public, leading to capture (e.g., Samantha Koenig).
• Sought anonymity by following news of his crimes generically, never searching names directly unless using anonymous computers.
  • “Virtually nothing. And that’s not to say there isn’t an investigation or whatever, but... nothing was ever high profile like the stuff that happened more recently.” (Keyes, 12:41)

7. Impact of Relationships and Mobility

• Keyes’ relationship with “Kristen” led to frequent travel, often with her and sometimes his daughter, providing cover for crimes committed nationally.
  • “So suddenly Iz found himself traveling to remote corners of the country…with no financial records, spending the majority of his days unoccupied.” (35:56)
• Host questions possibility of Keyes committing crimes while traveling with family—supported by precedent among serial killers.

  “Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer... had his young son in the truck with him. He did kill the woman...”—Guest expert, 38:00

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Law Enforcement Interactions:
  “Honestly, a lot of times that’s what I was doing. Yeah... For as far back as I can remember, that’s where I’d get a lot of ideas. Either fishing or out hunting.”
  — Keyes (02:24)

• On the Public’s Perceived Safety:
  “[Murder in parks is] so minuscule that they’re usually not even worth mentioning. Unless, of course, we’re talking about Israel Keyes.”
  — Hallmark (04:39)

• On Misattributed Deaths:
  “Someone might say, oh, it looks like a boating accident, but you knew... what you read that happened and what I know that actually happened, sometimes it’s almost not even recognizable, really.”
  — Keyes (08:46)

• On Investigating News of His Crimes:
  “I’d type in an area or a newspaper... type in a keyword of something and just scroll down the different stories until I found the one I was looking for.”
  — Keyes (11:09)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:18–03:14
  Keyes on how he avoided detection: fishing/hunting provided cover.
• 04:39–06:21
  Hallmark: Park statistics, other serial killers, rareness of murder in public wilderness.
• 13:15–14:42
  Hallmark: Indigenous missing persons crisis, lack of data.
• 19:26–28:32
  Analysis of missing persons cases that may be Keyes victims, including Celia Darlene Barnes.
• 35:56–38:58
  Impact of girlfriend “Kristen” on Keyes’ travel—and discussion of whether he could kill with family present.

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Tone & Style

• Serious, methodical, analytical.
• Host Josh Hallmark interweaves statistics, emotional resonance, and investigative skepticism.
• Maintains respect for victims and families, carefully navigating sensitive details.

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Episode Significance

This episode sets up one of the season’s key investigations—Celia Darlene Barnes—against the broader challenge of identifying “hidden” Keyes’ victims. It illustrates the statistical, logistical, and cultural obstacles to solving such disappearances and builds suspense for a deeper investigation into Barnes as a possible victim in the upcoming episode.

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Transcript

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[B]

I think we already talked about this. But you were never questioned by law enforcement about why you were ever at any of these places or anything? Well, like I said casually by law enforcement.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like they would see you at a trailhead and just small talk with you, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you here to fish? Are you here to hike? Those kind of things.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Let me see your fishing license.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And I usually had everything. Yeah, I always had all that stuff. Honestly, a lot of times that's what I was doing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For as far back as I can remember it, you know, that's where I get a lot of the ideas. Either fishing or out hunting. Yeah, I don't know.

[C]

I just. That's always.

[B]

That was always the most comfortable scenario.

[C]

For me because.

[B]

It'S win win situation. I'm out hunting or fishing and if the opportunity comes up, then take it. If it doesn't, it's not like it's you're out anything.

[C]

This is true crime bullshit. I'M your host, Josh Hallmark, and this is is a serialized story of Israel Keys. Approximately 2,000 hikers are reported missing each year in America, and according to Search and Rescue, about 35 of those hikers are pronounced dead. But when you take a look at overall deaths that occur within the national park system, that number goes up quite a bit. Somewhere between 120. And 140 people typically die within national parks every year, not counting suicides, according to the National Park Service. And while that may sound like a lot, it's actually less than 0.0000001% of annual national park visitors. That means if you go to a national park, your odds of dying there are roughly 1 in 2 million. The majority of those deaths are from drownings, car accidents and falls, meaning your chances of dying while hiking or visiting the park system are incredibly low. And your chances of being murdered there are so miniscule that they're usually not even worth mentioning. Unless, of course, we're talking about Israel Keys. In his early years in Neah Bay. When his murders began, Iz would go to the woods and wait for his victims to come to him. His murders weren't based on a profile, but on who was around and easy to kill. He also made it clear in his interviews with the FBI that the majority of his Washington state murders took place on state and federal land.

[B]

You seem adamant that there's no possible federal nexus for the Washington cases. And I'm just shocked because knowing the peninsula like we do, there's so much federal land out there, especially with the national forest, national parks, and, you know, my understanding then would be that nothing's happened on those type of lands. Are we correct in understanding that or no? I just didn't. I didn't know that would qualify as a federal crime. If it's a national park or something. National park or national forest, we could have jurisdiction on a felony. So, see this, all this stuff, Is the legal details on it?

[C]

New to me, but that's good to know.

[B]

That's a possibility. Keep in mind the federal nexus that we talked about in the national parks. I like to do some research on that. We could do that for you. We could check if you wanted to. Just give you some grids. Yeah, just give me a couple links and I'll look them up for you.

[C]

Huh.

[B]

There's lots of Western Washington is. I don't even remember. I mean, I know all the places I went and I know that they're all public areas, but I don't know which ones were state. Which ones were federal? I don't know. I never really paid that much attention.

[C]

This MO Played a huge part in his ability to conceal his earlier crimes. In fact, it was his eventual straying from this that would ultimately lead to his arrest. Over time, he lost patience, he lost control, and his crimes became less organized, more frenetic, and eventually as public as kidnapping Samantha Koenig from a coffee stand on a busy street in a major city. Picking people out of the woods is about as low profile as it gets for a serial killer. And Iz wasn't the first to use the National Park System to stalk and kill people. There are multiple other serial killers who hunted people in parks and on trailsides. Gary Michael Hilton was known as the National Forest serial Killer and is believed to have committed at least five murders in wilderness areas, some involving hikers, between 2007 and 2008. David Carpenter, better known as the Trailside Killer, killed at least 10 people in the late 70s and early 80s on hiking trails and state parks in the Bay Area. Randall Lee Smith hunted and killed at least two hikers on the Appalachian Trail in the early 80s. And after only serving 15 years for that, he was released and later attempted to kill two fishermen less than two miles from where those murders were committed. Ivan Millot killed at least 19 backpackers in Australia between 1989 and 1993. And Robert Garrow attacked multiple campers in the Adirondack mountains in the 60s and 70s. These men were all eventually caught because they either killed someone they knew one of their victims got away, or they had a localized dump site. As far as we know, Iz never made any of these mistakes. Murders in forested areas, national and state parks and trailsides are actually quite rare. And while I couldn't find any overall statistics, there have only been 11 reported murders on the Appalachian Trail since 1978, and not a single one on the Pacific Crest Trail ever. But that can't account for deaths misattributed as accidental or bodies never recovered, of which only one of Israel's victims ever has been.

[B]

Someone might say, oh, it looks like a boating accident, but you knew. Boating accident by hiker disappears. Fire fires. Because of the things that I've done that have been in the news, I've known that, like what you read that happened and what I know that actually happened. Sometimes it's almost not even recognizable, really. So I never took it for granted. I always assumed that if a body was found that they were. Somebody was going to be after me for it. I was always prepared for that. And I always had. I always thought I had alibis and stuff. That was always in the back of my mind. That's what I think you're talking about. If somebody who, you know, they're not going to suspect foul play, they probably think, well, they had a heart attack. They're old and you found them a year later. Or they think he was climbing the Mount Marathon.

[C]

And.

[B]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't know. You tell me they found this hiker's body at the bottom of a canyon. You tell me. Yeah, that's definitely the smarter way to do it.

[C]

Shortly after Iz was captured, Paul Lemaiter went missing while competing in the Mount Marathon race near Seward, Alaska. His body has never been recovered, nor are there any clues as to what happened to him. The FBI has since stated that most of Keyes earlier victims will likely resemble the disappearance of Lemaitre people who vanished from state and national parks without a trace and for no apparent reason. The other thing we know when it comes to identifying Keyes victims is that most of them, particularly in the beginning, didn't receive a lot of media attention.

[B]

Computers. You mentioned when computers first came out, you'd start doing searches and just wanted to see what was up with the military guys. When you would. You talked before with us about. There were a couple times that you would go on your computer and do a search just to see if a body had been found or, I don't know, arson or bank robbery or whatever it is when you were doing it. How would you. How would you do that? I mean, did you know names of everybody or would you do just Google search a town and. Or how would you do it?

[C]

I was. With.

[B]

The exception of the computer that you guys got, I generally wouldn't do it on the home computers. I had another computer that I did use for a while, but for the most part it was a computer that I was planning on having around for a while. I would never do searches on it. Searches I did do were usually pretty generic. I would type in an area or a newspaper of an area and type in a keyword. I would never type in a specific name, the name of the newspaper from the area. Like if I would do Burlington Press, right? Yeah. I would do a search of news from an area, I guess, and then pull up either a newspaper or news channel, online news. Type in a keyword of something and just scroll down the different stories. So I found the one I was looking for. If I was doing it from an anonymous Computer, like an airport or a library or something I would do. I would just type in what I wanted right away, bring it up. Did you know the names or did you remember the names of most of the people? Yeah, well, yeah, on the major things, yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So there's not going to be as many details that anybody knows aside from me. There's just not. There's just not. And like I said, frankly, on some of the stuff, I was shocked by at the fact that I never heard anything about it. Virtually nothing. And that's not to say that there isn't an investigation or whatever, but it was just never. Nothing was ever high profile like the stuff that happened more recently.

[C]

From 2001 to 2007, more than 40 people went missing in or around American forests and parks within 500 miles of neah Bay. And we can't say for certain the exact number because a lot of missing people never make it into national databases or media coverage, generally because they're living at risk lifestyles or Native American. A recent study conducted by the Urban Indian Health Institute found that there isn't a single federal agency that has comprehensive data on how many indigenous people are murdered or missing. It also found that of 5,712 Indigenous women and girls who were reported either missing or murdered in 2016, only 116 were ever logged into the Department of Justice database. There are over 3 million acres of reserved tribal lands in Washington state alone with a population consisting of close to 60,000, which creates a lot of space for missing indigenous people to go unreported. Not to mention that many of these areas are incredibly remote and unpoliced. And that through his job with the Makah tribe, Iz had unrestricted access to about 30,000 acres of this land. And the Colville Indian Reservation where he grew UP consists of 1.4 million acres, land that Iz was very familiar with.

[B]

I can, like I say it's anything more than a year ago. It's stuff kind of runs together in my head.

[C]

I can.

[B]

That's why it's.

[C]

This is.

[B]

Like New York and Washington.

[C]

Are.

[B]

Places that I went through a lot. So. I can remember specifics and high points, but I can't attach dates or addresses necessarily. There's a good chance that. Washington easier because I lived there for so long. So you know the area better. Yeah.

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[C]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

[A]

Say hi Dan.

[B]

Hey, how's it going today?

[C]

It's going good, man.

[A]

Tell us who you are and what you do.

[B]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty awesome.

[C]

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[C]

You As I started combing through all the reported missing persons cases in the area between Izz's Nia Bay arrival in July of 2001 and his departure in March of 2007, I noticed an interesting trend. Most of the people to have gone missing in national and state parks were men, and a large percentage of them are believed to be suicides. As it turns out, according to the cdc, the fourth leading cause of death in American national parks is suicide. There's an average of 41 suicide attempts in the park system each year, 68% of which are successful, and 84% of those suicides involved men. The majority of these cases occurred in the summer months and the mean age of the victims was 43. These statistics drastically muddy the waters when it comes to identifying potential Keyes victims. Of the six people who best match his MO of abducting victims through the park system and his timeline, five are men and four cannot be ruled out as suicides. One of these cases has gotten quite a bit of attention as a possible keys victim. Gilbert Gilman was 47 when he went missing during a visit to the Olympic National park on June 24, 2006. He was last seen in the park listening to music in his parked car, wearing shorts and flip flops, carrying only a camera. Gilman had an extraordinary career with the Army. He was a paratrooper who served in Panama, East Africa and Israel. He received two Bronze Stars for his combat experience with the 82nd Airborne. He also had degrees from the London School of Economics, Union College in New York and the Solvay Business School in Brussels. So not only was he incredibly wilderness savvy, he was also a very smart man. Smart and savvy enough not to go hiking in shorts and flip flops. So it's believed by those close to him that he was likely just in the park for a leisurely stroll that day, making it highly unlikely that he got lost off trail somewhere in the mountains. Gilbert was reported missing when he failed to arrive at a scheduled meeting the following day. That same afternoon his car was found at the staircase ranger station in the park. Searchers spent 10 days looking for Gilbert in the staircase area and found no trace of him. They used tracking dogs, a helicopter and a plane with heat seeking equipment along with 62 on ground searchers. After those 10 days, Gilman was declared lost by the U.S. forest Service. It wasn't until after Israel's suicide, when details of his crimes became public that people started linking him to Gilman, including an episode of the id channel's Dark Minds, which aired in 2014. The only eliminating reason I've been able to find is from an interview with author Molly Konesky who stated that on the day Gilman went missing, Iz was running a marathon where he placed 90th in Port Angeles, which is about 80 miles and a two and a half hour drive from where Gilbert's car was found. Interestingly enough, I was able to find the race records for that particular marathon and Iz did place 90th with a runtime of 3 hours and 57 minutes, which would make it impossible for him to get to the staircase area and back to Port Angeles in time. However, that marathon was on June 11, not June 26, and hotel receipts placing Iz in Port Angeles on the night of the 11th corroborate this. The FBI though, has made it clear that they don't think Iz is a viable suspect in the Gilman disappearance. They've publicly never released what this opinion is based on, but I did stumble upon several notes about the Gilman case in their Israel Keys files. The first indicates that Gilman was possibly a suicide. The second is a lot more fascinating and I hate to be a buzzkill, but I'm not comfortable discussing it for reasons I'm not really at liberty to state. But regardless, I tend to believe the FBI's analysis of this based almost solely on something else. As far as the case files indicate, they didn't spend very much time looking into Gilman, but they spent a lot of time and energy looking into a similar missing persons case. Delmar Wayne's sample was last seen at around 11am on March 4, 2005 at a gas station in Centralia, Washington. Sample had told friends and family that he planned to spend the day hiking in Tillamook, Oregon, near Depot Bay. Sample was living in Onalaska, Washington at the time, which is south of where he was last seen, but north of Tillamook. It's unclear why he would have traveled north to get gas for a southbound trip, but most assume that he just had a change of plans, especially considering his abandoned car was eventually found at Lake Quinault. All of his belongings were in the car, except for a red mountain bike he's believed to have taken with him on that trip. Delmar, who went by Del, was 66 at the time of his disappearance. Friends and family have vehemently stated that Del wasn't depressed or suicidal and it was very uncharacteristic of him to just abandon his life and not check in with loved ones. The police did an extensive search of the area where his car was found, and there were no signs or sightings of Sample, nor were there any bicycle tracks nearby. When Iz's case went public, several of Del's family members contacted the FBI to see if it was possible Keyes abducted him. And the FBI took these leads very seriously. They did DNA analysis on swabs taken from Del's car. They worked with local law enforcement and they examined Izz's timeline. Unfortunately, the only DNA found in Del's car was Del's, and they could find no additional sightings of Dell following his appearance on surveillance in the gas station. And there's a hole in iz's timeline from March 2 through March 8. However, Iz did go canoeing on March 1 at Lake.

[B]

Quinault. And then what about planning? Like the Washington State when you had your boat out, Were those highly planned?

[C]

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[C]

Apply. I've got Dan Morgan here on the.

[A]

Pod. Say hi.

[B]

Dan. Hey, how's it going.

[C]

Today? It's going good.

[A]

Man. Tell us who you are and what you.

[B]

Do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty.

[C]

Awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours.

[B]

Recently. It said 20 billion.

[C]

One. 20 billion is an insane.

[B]

Number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes.

[C]

On.

[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

You. The FBI has never been able to rule Iz out as a suspect in the disappearance of Delmar Sample. But they've also never publicly named him as one. His case remains unsolved. The third of these possible Keyes cases is the most mysterious park disappearance and the most frustrating. Because what makes this man a likely Keyes victim is also what makes it so challenging to connect him to Izzy. There's literally no information or coverage on his disappearance. All we know is that Gregory Seamans Brown went missing from the Rachel Lake trailhead in the Okanagan Wenatchee National Forest near ellensburg, Washington on July 5, 2005. I haven't been able to find who reported him missing, when he was reported missing, or why he's believed to have gone missing on that date from that location. And July 5 also falls into an information gap in Izz's Timeline. What I do know is that Gregory was 48 at the time of his disappearance. He was also a slight man believed to be between 5 foot 5 and 5 foot 9 and weighing between 120 and 150 pounds. And that his disappearance occurred just two weeks after Iz had his maiden voyage celebration with his new boat. The other two disappearances that could be keys or could be suicides are Steven Michael Mason and Celia Darlene Barnes. Stephen Mason went missing on June 20, 2006. He and his wife had been camping at a Dungeness forks U.S. forest Service campground in the Olympic National Forest. They got into an argument and his wife eventually left the campsite. The following day, Steven went to a friend's house and asked that friend to return the mason's vehicle and his wife's purse back to her. The friend agreed and then drove Stephen back to the campground and left him there. He was never seen or heard from again. And he wasn't reported missing for nine days following that last sighting. A two day search of the forest turned up no sign of him, only a cache of food. Mason, who was 52 at the time, was an experienced camper and fisherman who knew the area very well and had camped there for extended periods previously. Iz can't be placed anywhere on the date Stevens was last seen, but he had been camping at Lake Ozette three days prior and traveled to Ridgefield, Oregon to buy an ATV. Two days following on June 22nd. Celia Darlene Barnes was last seen while hiking with her sister near the House of Mystery in Gold hill, Oregon on September 1, 2002. Celia and her sister separated while looking for aluminum cans and trinkets and planned to meet later in the day at her sister's car. But Celia never arrived and has never been seen again. Barnes had been reported missing once before when she got lost while hiking. She was eventually found safe that time. However, the incident became a source of contention amongst Celia and her family when she made it clear that she was both embarrassed and angry that they'd reported her missing. So when she went missing on this hike, her family waited 30 hours before informing the authorities. Tracker dogs were eventually able to trace her scent to an Interstate 5 off ramp. And a week after her disappearance, a man in Gold Hill found the bronze ski pole she used as a walking stick. That man passed a polygraph and isn't considered a suspect in her case. Celia was 57, a veteran, and receiving cancer treatment at the time of her disappearance. And there's no information about Iz's timeline for the entire month of September that year. The sixth of these national and state park disappearances that could have been Keyes is Roy Lauren Stevens. And there are so many factors that go into Roy's case that it makes it nearly impossible to determine why he went missing. Roy was last seen in the early hours of November 16, 2005 in Crescent, Oregon. After spending the evening at the Odell Lake Lodge where he worked as a chef, Roy met with some friends at a local bar for drinks. At 11pm he called his wife to say he was on his way home. Roy never arrived and was never heard from again. Nine days later, his car was found abandoned on the Waldo Lake access road on a mountain in the Willamette National Forest, about 35 miles from where he was last seen. His wallet and paycheck were found inside the car and a puddle of vomit was found nearby. Roy's family tried to rally a community search and rescue effort, but were told by local law enforcement that they wouldn't be able to go up to the mountain because it wasn't safe and nobody else in the local community offered or volunteered to help do anything. Three different law enforcement agencies had been involved in the Lane County, Klamath county and the Willamette National Forest. Roy lived in Klamath County. His car was found in the Willamette National Forest, which was also in Lane County. The multiple jurisdictions didn't help in the search and in the end, only four hours of searching were ever conducted and cadaver dogs were never sent to the area that Roy vanished from. There were rumors that Roy was involved in local drug trade, which is why people believe his case wasn't taken more seriously. At the time of his disappearance, Roy was 48 years old and caring for his terminally ill wife. While this MO Was quite successful for Keyes, some big life changes and new experiences forced him to adapt and evolve his methods for murder. In early 2005, Keys he met a woman we'll call Kristen, who would eventually be his live in girlfriend. At the time of his arrest, Kristen was also close to a decade older than is, but otherwise couldn't have been any more different from Tammy. She was incredibly independent and enjoyed doing her own.

[B]

Thing. And I know at one point in time you told us that he was oblivious to, you know, you used that word, I think, to what was on, going, going on and stuff. Do you think that there was, you know, when you met her, was there some type of an attraction like that that you perceived that, that, that it would be an easy relationship to carry on because she wouldn't be suspicious. Was Tammy the same way? No, there's. Yeah, there's certain personality types that I. Would work harder at having a relationship with because, you know, they would have. For example, she has pretty hectic career and her own. She has her own social life and she's, I guess you'd say, like a self contained person. So we had a good relationship, but it was easy to separate myself from.

[C]

It. Kristen worked in remote medical training which had her frequently traveling the country for work. And as she and Iz began dating and getting more serious, she started inviting Iz and sometimes Sarah on these work trips with her. She was using her Alaska Airlines frequent flyer miles to cover the cost of Iz's trips. And so suddenly Iz found himself traveling to remote corners of the country with no financial records, spending the majority of his days unoccupied, while Kristen taught people how to save lives in the wilderness. Eventually, Iz began tacking family visits and vacations onto these work trips which had him taking multi destination flights and racking up rental car mileage all over the country. And it's on many of these trips that the FBI believes he committed murders, bank robberies and arsons. And that makes sense. It was harder to connect him through financial records to any of these places. He always tried to keep a tight timeline while committing crimes. And as he became a more sophisticated serial killer, he made certain there was always a great and immediate distance between himself and his crimes. But there was one thing that didn't add up to me. You know, we talk a lot about Israel using travel to conceal his crimes and these convoluted methods of travel he used. The FBI files show that the FBI strongly believes on a trip he took to Sacramento, he may have committed a murder. And the one thing I have been struck by is that on that trip his girlfriend was with him. And in fact, on about 50% of his crazy, you know, multi destination travels, either his girlfriend or his daughter were with him. Do you think it's possible that while he was traveling with family on these vacations, he was capable of actually murdering.

[B]

People? I know it was possible. Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, talks about the time he went out to get a prostitute. He had his young son in the truck with him. He did kill the woman, raped her, killed her, strangled her, and was asked what would have happened if your son would have seen what you were doing. And he said, well, I would have had to kill him too. So, yeah, it's absolutely possible for them to go out and commit these acts while also with their families acting like normal human beings. They do it all the time. I don't think he would have necessarily planned to have done something, but if he would have seen an opportunity, he might have gone for it. Like, you know, he burglarized a lot of homes, too. That might have happened while he had family with him. You know, we'd have to really know if there were long stretches of time that they didn't know where he was. And I don't. I don't know that we have that.

[A]

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[C]

Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen.

[A]

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