S7 Prep: Celia Darlene Barnes - part 2

Summary

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True Crime Bullsh**

S7 Prep: Celia Darlene Barnes - Part 2

Release Date: August 14, 2025
Host: Josh Hallmark (Studio BOTH/AND)

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Main Theme

This episode is a deep dive into infamous serial killer Israel Keyes’s use of kill kits (“caches”) scattered across the United States, focusing on new examinations of their number, contents, and geographic spread. Josh Hallmark meticulously unpacks evidence, FBI interviews, and contradictions in Keyes’s own statements, tying these findings to potential undiscovered victims and unresolved disappearances, and laying groundwork for continued investigations into Celia Darlene Barnes and other missing persons possibly linked to Keyes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Purpose and Proliferation of Kill Kits

• Keyes’s Methods with Caches (02:02-03:31):

  • Keyes’s caches were both pre- and post-crime countermeasures, used for storing weapons, disguises, money, and evidence.
  • Only two caches have ever been located by the FBI: Blake Falls Reservoir and Eagle River (North Fork Cache).
  • Keyes admitted to less than 10 hidden caches at the time of his arrest but possibly had as many as 19 across 13 states.

• Quote:
  “The idea with caches is to have something everywhere, wherever. You might never know when you're gonna feel the need. I'm not tied to stay-at-home kind of guy, so. But there's a lot of them.” — Israel Keyes in interview (02:02)

• Keyes's gamesmanship: Frequently played with word definitions and accuracy to bewilder investigators and protect information about his true activities.

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2. The Winooski and Blake Falls Reservoir Caches (03:31-11:24)

• Winooski Cache Timeline:

  • Created directly after the Tupper Lake, NY robbery and the probable murder of Debra Feldman in April 2009.
  • Used the same shovel for both burial and cache placement.
  • Stayed at the Handy Suites in Essex Junction with alterations in paperwork to obscure identity—a sign of Keyes’s evolving criminal care (03:31-07:41).

• Keyes’s Attention to Detail, Then Devolution:
  “It’s a great demonstration of just how much Keyes devolved between 2009 and 2011.” — Josh Hallmark (07:41)

• Blake Falls Reservoir Cache:

  • Only the guns and rape kit were found, no trophies or money. Raises questions about whether trophies and remaining robbery cash were relocated to a different, undiscovered cache.

• On FBI mistakes:
  “Yes, you heard that right. The FBI went to look for a buried kill kit and didn’t bring a shovel.” — Josh Hallmark (09:50)

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3. What Happened to the Money and Trophies? (11:24-13:50)

• Keyes’s Account Post-Murder:

  • Describes reading about the Courier disappearance in a Vermont newspaper, feeling the heat, and heading to upstate NY, where he disposed of weapons in a reservoir (11:24).

• Discrepancies: When the cache was recovered, neither money nor “trophies” were present, despite Keyes’s admissions and expected cash amounts (close to $4,000).

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4. Analyzing the Timeline, Lies, and Cache Locations (21:41-29:26)

• Improbable Timeline:
  — Analysis shows Keyes could not have spent additional claimed days in upstate NY as both he and Heidi told the FBI he spent several days in Maine post-murder and before flying out. — Suggests movement or re-location of caches and evidence.

• High-Likelihood Gaps:

  • October 22-24, 2010: Keyes “disappears” near the northeast, turns off technology, and spends $2,000 soon after. Implies a possible unreported bank robbery or retrieval of stashed money from a cache.

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5. Unsolved Cases, Disappearances, and Canadian Connections

• Potential Victims Linked by Timeline:

  • Christopher Roof (NY, postmortem suggests early October 2010).
  • Abdulatif Salman (Ottawa, disappeared October 23, 2010)—his disappearance aligns directly with a Keyes gap.

• Salman Case:
  “...last seen just two hours through the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation from Constable, New York.” — Josh Hallmark (28:42)

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6. Cache Behavior Patterns and Misconceptions (31:30-39:48)

• Long-term vs. Short-term Caches:

  • “The difference between planned and spontaneous attacks.” — Josh Hallmark (34:51)
  • Keyes described “real” caches as long-term, while others were considered quick, one-off preparations.

• Revelations on Cache Count:

  • Keyes played down the number but investigators estimate up to 19 caches, often regions with past or suspected Keyes activity.

• Quote:
  “Notice how it’s the FBI and not Keyes who insinuate that ‘no’ means less than 12.” — Josh Hallmark (37:36)

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7. Law Enforcement Coordination and Recovery Efforts

• Interplay between field teams and interrogation units.
• Praise for Keyes’s “incredible memory” for cache locations:
  “It was right where he said we’d find it. He had an incredible memory…of all the caches Keyes had hidden across the country.” — FBI Evidence Recovery Team Member (38:27-39:48)
• Observation that retrieved caches only ever contained evidence from cases Keyes was already convicted or suspected of, never implicating him in further unknown crimes.

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8. Final Reflections: Caches…Still Out There?

• Two types of caches in key areas, many likely to still exist with potential physical evidence.
• Keyes’s elusive clues suggest “some of the stuff is going to be relevant,” hinting at a future where more caches (and thus more answers about missing persons) may surface. (42:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Keyes’s Manipulation:
  “So I think it’s probably part fact, part bullshit, and part of just the way that he played little psychological games with himself and with others too.” — Josh Hallmark (07:13)

• On Law Enforcement Gaps:
  “Yes, you heard that right. The FBI went to look for a buried kill kit and didn’t bring a shovel.” — Josh Hallmark (09:50)

• Keyes Rationalizing Gun Acquisition:
  “The guns that get buried right away and that I don’t dig up or move around or whatever, those aren’t, you know, some of those aren’t mine. That’s why they’re buried.” — Israel Keyes (41:36)

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 02:02-03:31 — Keyes on his cache habits and logic
• 03:31-11:24 — Deep dive on Winooski and Blake Falls Reservoir caches; timeline
• 13:50-16:42 — Missing items from caches and their significance
• 21:41-29:26 — Analyzing the plausibility of Keyes’s own timeline and possible alternate cache locations
• 31:30-34:51 — Examination of short-term vs. long-term caches
• 38:27-39:48 — Law enforcement insights from recovery operations

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Episode Flow & Tone

• Tone: Methodical, investigative, skeptical—reflecting Josh Hallmark’s persistent search for overlooked connections and unsolved mysteries. At times sardonic, especially when highlighting FBI missteps or Keyes’s attempts at obfuscation.
• Style: Rich with interview tape, narrative explanation, cross-referencing records, and deductive speculation.

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Summary for the Uninitiated

This episode expertly unpacks how Israel Keyes perfected the use of kill kits, how and where he planted them, and the enduring mystery of undiscovered caches that likely hold the answers to multiple long-unsolved crimes. Through critical analysis of timelines, law enforcement records, and Keyes’s own manipulations, Hallmark suggests new directions for investigation, poses hard questions about unsolved disappearances in the northeast, and re-emphasizes the chilling elusiveness of both Keyes and his hidden crimes.

All of this keeps the listener engaged, whether or not they’ve ever tuned in to earlier TCBS seasons.

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Transcript

[A]

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[C]

You got me more curious about the caches and stuff now too. How many caches are there in Washington? Washington, United States, Canada. The idea with caches is to have something everywhere, wherever. You might never know when you're gonna feel the need. I'm not tied to stay at home kind of guy, so. But there's a lot of them. Well, a dozen.

[B]

No.

[C]

Jesus, nothing. That won't be that hard. Yeah, we got that. How many in Washington? One relative. How about the at least one in Washington? @ least one. Is there one that's not relative that we could look for? No, they're all relative relevant to. I know you said there's one in Washington relevant to stuff we may be talking about in the future. Well, they're all relevant. That's what you have them for, right? Right. Yeah, they're all. I mean. Cause a lot of the stuff in them at the time that I buried them. Yeah. Is not mine.

[B]

So. This is true crime bullshit. I'm your host, Josh Hallmark. And this is a serialized story of Israel Keyes. In addition to moving, disappearing and destroying Kars as a means to cover up his crimes, Israel Keys also, and most infamously, utilized kill kits or hidden caches as a countermeasure to conceal his crimes and hide evidence both preemptively and following the commissions of his crimes. As we're well aware, by now, the FBI only ever recovered two of Keyes caches, the Blake Falls Reservoir cache and the Eagle river cache, also known as the North Fall Fork Cache. But Keyes admitted to having, at the time of his arrest, less than 10 caches hidden across the country. He would eventually reveal that there were additional caches in East Texas, Port Angeles, Washington, and Green River, Wyoming, although with varying information and efforts, none of those caches were ever recovered. He also told the FBI that there was a shovel and box hidden in the woods of the Winooski Forest in Essex, Vermont, where the Blake Falls Reservoir cache used to be. And he admitted that the shovel had been used to bury his 2009 New York victim, strongly believed to be Debra Feldman. And while this seems pretty cut and dry, the thing about Keyes is he uses wordplay to confuse or muddle the truth. Shifting gears a little because the statement has always just been strange to me, and I can't really make heads or tails of it. In a July 2012 FBI interview, he told investigators that he considered himself more of a bank robber than a serial killer, and that often bank robberies were more of a high for him than killing people, which, based on literally everything else he's ever said, seems like bullshit. And I'm just wondering your interpretation of that statement. That is the name of the podcast.

[C]

So.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's bullshit.

[C]

But there's also the possibility that he's using wordplay there, like I think he's always wanted.

[B]

To. And when what I've heard of the FBI interviews, I think he always wanted to at least seem that he.

[C]

Was being cooperative and.

[B]

Forthcoming. And if he says, I consider.

[C]

Myself more of a bank robber, because.

[B]

In his mind, he's thinking, well, I've.

[C]

Definitely robbed more banks than I've killed.

[B]

People, then he's actually making an accurate.

[C]

Statement without making an accurate.

[B]

Statement. Clearly, being a serial killer and.

[C]

Killing, you know, perhaps a dozen or.

[B]

More victims is far more significant than robbing 25.

[C]

Banks.

[B]

So. But at the same time, could.

[C]

He rationalize that statement in his head and do it to such a degree.

[B]

That he feels that he's being.

[C]

Forthcoming? Yeah, he could probably do that. So I think it's probably part.

[B]

Fact, part bullshit, and part of just the way that he played little psychological.

[C]

Games with himself and with others too. And mostly things were buried. I know there was one here that was. Was above ground, but pretty much wasn't really a cache though. The north fork of your. Oh yeah. So okay, otherwise, yeah, that was disposable.

[B]

Material. It's fair to say that based on Keyes own definition, or at least how he'd like his work to be defined, hastily put together kill kits wouldn't be considered real caches. Thus excluding by his own words, the Houston airport bag and the Eagle river cache. We also know that Keyes moved his caches often, generally like with the Winooski cache, for following his use of them in the commission of a murder. The Winooski river cache was created on either April 10 or April 11 of 2009, just hours after the likely murder of Debra Feldman and the bank robbery in Tupper Lake. According to unreleased interviews with Keyes, he buried that cash using the same shovel he used to bury his New York victim. And in that cash, among God knows what else, were items used in that rape and murder, along with the cash stolen from the Tupper Lake bank robbery. Keyes stayed at the Handy Suites in Essex Junction while staking out the area and eventually burying his cash there. It's the same hotel he'd stay at two years later when he used that very same cash in the abduction and murder of the couriers. Ironically, in 2009, he paid cash for the hotel. But on his trip where he actually murdered someone, he paid in credit, leaving behind a digital footprint. In 2009, he was also smart enough to register his rental car with the hotel with a slightly altered license plate number. He told the hotel he had a rental car with a Florida plate number 8x74QF2. He actually had a rental car with a New Hampshire plate number x74QFZ. It's a great demonstration of just how much keys devolved between 2009 and 2011. What's interesting about this cache isn't so much what was in it, but what wasn't in it when Keyes eventually led the FBI to it. In April of 2012, Prior to abducting the couriers, Keyes dug up the Winooski cache and all of its contents, including the remaining Tupper Lake money. And following the murders, he took just about everything in that cash with him to Maine. He left behind only a wooden box and the shovel he used to bury, presumably Deborah Feldman and the Winooski cache, neither of which were ever located, largely in part because the FBI didn't bring a shovel of their own when they went to dig up these buried items. Yes, you heard that right. The FBI went to look for a buried kill kit and didn't bring a shovel. On his way back to Vermont from Maine, as we all well know, Keyes got rid of the courier's phones and burned the majority of their stuff at a campground in New Hampshire. And when he saw that the courier's car had already been discovered, he headed straight to Constable and he told investigators that he spent the next one to two days fishing in upstate New.

[C]

York. As it was, they figured out pretty quick that there was something not right about the situation. And yeah, so by the time, I think it was less than a week, I was in Maine. So by the time I got back, drove back down through, I. I realized that they were. Already knew something serious had happened just from the crime scene tape and drove. There was a ferry that crosses. Was that big lake there? I think it's Lake Champlain. And I was going to take the ferry back across to New York. I stopped at a little gas station and picked up a newspaper and was reading the articles about their disappearance. And sure enough, there was quite a bit in there about their disappearance. Like it was clear that the police already suspected the worst because they had had the family do. They did a press conference and the family, I guess they did an appeal to the public or appeal to the kidnappers or whatever. And I didn't see that until later, but I saw, I read about it in the paper. So I just decided to. It was better to get out of Vermont and go back to New York. So I went back to New York and hung out for there. Hung out there for a day or two. And that's when I found. Found that little boat launch, did some fishing there and decided that was a good spot to drop the guns. I was gonna keep their gun, but I decided it was pretty obvious that it was a brand new gun and I was sure, pretty sure it would be registered to them. So I. I figured it was probably better if I just tossed it. I didn't want to have it buried in the same bucket with mine, so. So yeah, I tossed it in that reservoir along with the parts from the Ruger. And you tossed them in the same spot, right? Yeah, that's what you told us last time. Yeah, I mean, unless the ice moved them around, they shouldn't be more than 10 or 15ft apart. All three of those things, the barrel. The barrel's out further. It's a heavy.

[B]

Barrel. So. But here's the thing. When the Blake Falls Reservoir kill kit was actually recovered, all the guns were there, as were the items from his rape kit. But there were no trophies from the couriers, nor was there any money. Keyes claimed to have gotten about $10,000 from the Tupper Lake robbery, and we know he used about half of that to pay off credit card debt. Based on financial records, there would have been close to $4,000 cash in the Winooski river kill kit. And Keyes admitted to the FBI that he did keep some of the courier's belongings, none of which were ever found in either Constable, Alaska or the Blake Falls Reservoir kill kit. So where did the trophies and the money go? And more importantly, when did the trophies and money go? Why drop a fortune on basic clothes when you don't have to? Quince has all the good stuff. High quality fabrics, classic fits and lightweight layers for warm weather. All at prices that make sense. Everything I've ordered from Quint's has been nothing but solid. Quint's has closet staples you'll want to reach for over and over, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just $50, breathable flow knit polos and comfortable lightweight pants that somehow work for both weekend hangs and dressed up dinners. The best part? Everything with Quints is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury pieces without the markup. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. My style tends to lead more classic and that's why I love Quince because they have high quality basics that I can mix and match with shirt, jackets and pants. The fit is right, they feel good and they look nice. I literally bought the same Quince tee in five different colors and lately I've been eyeing their towel sets. Yeah, Quince does towels, cookware, bedding, even luggage and bags. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.com tcbs for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com tcbs to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com tcbs tis the season for identity.

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[C]

Dan. Hey, how's it going.

[B]

Today? It's going good.

[C]

Man. Tell us who you are and what you do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty.

[B]

Awesome. I think I saw a billboard.

[C]

Of yours recently that said 20.

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Billion. 120 billion is an insane.

[C]

Number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes.

[B]

On.

[C]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What, what would I do if I got into an accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247.

[B]

365.

[C]

Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you. So I drove, started heading up to Maine. I think I was on the interstate and I was at a rest area somewhere and then I realized I should probably turn the phones off or. Yeah, because the one phone I had in the front with me, I'd forgot about the other phone I had in the back of the car in the suitcase, the one that wasn't supposedly working and. But the one I had with me, it rang a few times on the drive and I finally just took the battery out of it. But the other one, it didn't occur to me that it might still be able to track where it was picking up service or whatever. So I didn't think of that until I got to Maine. I drove straight through. I think I was up for about 30 hours on that one because I hadn't slept at all the night before, obviously. But I was. Yeah, I think I got to Maine. I was pretty tired. And then it dawned on me that that other phone was still on. So I parked alongside the road somewhere in Maine and was digging through the suitcases and found it and took the battery out of that one too. And then drove the rest of the way up to Maine. I think my brothers knew that. I think my brothers knew I had had a rough night or something because I was pretty out of it by the time I got up there. I don't really even remember what I did when I got to Maine. I think I just hung out with my brother who lived in Bangor. Maybe crashed on his couch for a while. And then we had a bunch of work to do on. I had wanted to do on the farm up there. So we went up north to the farm and how many. It's like 100 and I think it's 140 acres that my dad had bought in upstate Maine. It's like a maple. Maple syrup farm type thing. And there used to be a house there. The house burned down and there's still a barn. So whenever I would go to Maine, we would usually head up north and. And camp out in the barn. They had part of the barn converted to like a crash pad or something. So we crashed there. And I had rented an excavator to do some work on the place. And there was a party that night. A bunch of my brother's friends came over and. Yeah, that was. I don't remember how. It seemed like I was only there for a few days. We were. We were working on the place and then. Then I was driving. As I was driving back down to Vermont, I was. I had mellowed. Mellowed out and was starting to decide, like, plan what I was gonna do next. And stopped at that park, the National Forest in New.

[B]

Hampshire. Keyes tells investigators that he was in Maine for a little less than a week. But prior to that, he tells investigators that he drove straight from the apartment building on Pearl street, where he abandoned the courier's car, to his brother's house in Bangor, where he crashed on the couch for a while. Then they went up to the farm in Smyrna where they had a party, then worked on the sugar shack for a few days before heading back down to Constable via Essex Junction. Meaning the very earliest he could have been back in Constable was on June 13th. Keyes returned to Anchorage from Chicago on June 15th. It takes 13 hours to drive from Constable to Chicago and most critically, both Keyes and Heidi told the FBI separately that he spent a couple nights in Harlan before heading back to Chicago. It is impossible for Keyes to have spent one to two days fishing in upstate New York looking for a new place to bury the Winooski cache. Keyes Blake Falls Reservoir lie brings up a few things. Most obviously for such a seemingly innocuous lie, what's the utility? And beyond that, if he doesn't actually have the time to spend two days or even half a day fishing and looking for a spot to bury the Winooski cache and to dispose of the Lorraine Currier's gun, then he either already had a cache at the Blake Falls Reservoir or the Winooski cache, including the missing Tupper Lake money and his admitted courier trophies ended up somewhere else before just the guns and rape kit were deposited and eventually found at the reservoir. If the Blake Falls Reservoir cache already existed, there's a very clear spot on Keyes timeline where it was likely created between October 22 and October 24 of 2010, just six months before the couriers were abducted. On October 15 of 2010, Keys and Sara flew from Anchorage by way of Chicago to Boston. From there they drove to Maine in a rental car. As was the case pretty much every October, Keyes and his brothers were doing work on the Sugar Shack in Smyrna. And according to a family friend, the Keyes boys all did some work on a friend's house nearby too. But much like in Texas two years later, on the 22nd, at 3:30pm Keyes left Sarah with his mother, turned off his cell phone, stopped using his credit cards and disappeared for two and a half days. He returned late at night on the 24th, then left with Sarah early the next morning to catch their return flight to Alaska. This is the only recorded trip Keyes took to the northeast between the Tupper Lake robbery and the murder of the couriers, although there are several credible sightings of him in the area throughout the summer of 2010. In addition to the already suspicious behavior of ditching his kid, turning off his phone and not using any credit cards for two and a half days, Keyes also pays about $2,000 toward his credit card debt immediately following following this trip. So it's highly likely he either robbed a bank during those two and a half days. We've yet to find any area banks that were robbed, or he rendezvoused with his kill kit and got some of the Tupper Lake money. And as the FBI suspected and Keyes would eventually admit, he uses these caches primarily in conjunction with murders. And it just so happens that there were two notable disappearances around that time in the Northeast. While we don't know exactly when he disappeared, we do know that Christopher Roof's remains were discovered on November 4th of 2010. And postmortem interval places his date of death sometime around early October that year. And while I don't think Roof is a likely Keyes victim, nor that he would have died so soon prior to the recovery of his remains, he's worth noting based on Keyes proximity at the time. And it should also be pointed out that Roof's remains were in an extremely advanced state of decomposition for someone who had last been seen less than two months prior to the recovery of his remains. And some have speculated that a chemical may have been used to advance the decomposition process. I was told that much of his remains were essentially goo and there was little to be done to identify a cause of death. There's another disappearance that stands out from that same period, both because of the location and a specific date. And it's one we've addressed before based on keyes history patterns, Mo and what he told the FBI. If Keyes abducted someone between October 22 and October 24, that abduction most likely would have occurred on the night of the 23rd. Unfortunately, there were no missing persons on NAMUS or the Charlie Project anywhere in the Northeast who disappeared specifically on the 23rd, nor either surrounding day. And like I said before, we couldn't find any reports of robberies in the area during that time frame either. It just seemed like another black hole in the Keys timeline. That is until Shaina from the research team reminded me to look up. Abdulatif Salman, a 25 year old Walmart employee, disappeared from outside of Ottawa, Canada on October 23rd of 2010 while on his way to work. We briefly discussed his case in episode four of season two. Canadians don't count. And while there isn't a ton of information available about his disappearance, we do know that his family doesn't think he disappeared of his own volition. And more significantly, he enjoyed spending his free time at places of worship and bodies of water. Salmon was last seen just two hours through the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation from Constable, New York. The clock's running out on December deal drops at Lowe's. But there's still time to wrap up something they'll love. Shop great gifts under $50 like the Dewalt Elite Series 100 piece bit set. Plus if you order by 2pm.

[A]

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[B]

Can. Lowe's. We help you.

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[B]

Apply. I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod. Say hi.

[C]

Dan. Hey, how's it going.

[B]

Today? It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you.

[C]

Do. I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm. That's pretty.

[B]

Awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours.

[C]

Recently. It said 20.

[B]

Billion. 120 billion is an insane.

[C]

Number. Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes.

[B]

On.

[C]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What, what would I do if.

[B]

I got into an.

[C]

Accident? Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365. Wow. Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's large injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show. Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near.

[B]

You. The other possibility is that Keyes had a second cache somewhere between Essex, Vermont and Smyrna, Maine that the winooski items went into following the courier's murder. One possibility is the cache found near Keyes constable cabin. Although that cash contained neither personal possessions nor money. And Keyes would have, at some point between the couriers and his arrest eight months later, returned to that cache, wherever it was, and at a minimum, moved the weapons and rape kit to the Blake Falls Reservoir. And while there are no travel records placing him in the Northeast ever after June of 2011, we have friends and family placing him there, along with multiple highly credible teams tips. At the time that Marble Arvidsson disappeared and at the time that a man wearing a fedora that looked just like the fedora Marble disappeared in robbed a bank in Essex, Vermont. It seems possible, if not probable, that wherever this cache was, Keyes used it to hide the personal possessions of the couriers and possibly other victims for later use, like, say, a fedora. There is one third possibility that both things can be true. That the Blake Falls Reservoir cache existed prior to the abduction and murder of the couriers, and that an unknown cache also existed and probably still exists to this day somewhere east of Essex. And if the incident on Hawk Mountain is any indication, it's quite likely that this cache is hidden at whatever campground in New Hampshire. Keyes burn the courier's belongings. And wherever that cache is, it likely still has thousands of dollars and evidence of, at a minimum, the courier's abduction and murder, but likely evidence of additional crimes as well. Taking what we know about the Blake Falls, Winooski and Eagle river caches and what he's told us about the Texas and Port Angeles caches, there's a lot we can discern about his patterns of behavior surrounding these creation, placement and use of these caches, including one very important distinction that we've slowly been dissecting the past season and a the difference between planned and spontaneous attacks. Keyes told the FBI that the Eagle river cache wasn't a real cache. It was something he put together quickly just for a single kill. He hid it several days before he returned to troll the boat launch area and parking lot for potential victims. It wasn't buried or in a Home Depot bucket or any other long term container. He simply threw some Drano, zip ties, duct tape, rope and a shovel into a plastic garbage bag, which he hid in a berm under leaves and debris. It's similar to what was found by a hiker at the Olympic hot springs outside of Port Angeles, Washington in the spring of 2005. A black plastic garbage bag hidden under brush and debris at the base of a tree. Condoms, zip ties, rope, a pickaxe and duct tape. Unfortunately, that hiker, who was clearly not into true crime crime, threw the bag and its contents into an embankment. Never to be seen again. But we know that this was not the cash Keyes admitted to having in Port Angeles. That was a long term cache. One he talked about moving at some point due to possible flooding. So much like in East Texas. Keyes had two caches in Port Angeles. A long term cache and a short term cash. At least two, at a.

[C]

Minimum. You got me more curious about the caches and stuff now, too. How many caches are there in Washington? Washington, United States, Canada. The idea with caches is to have something everywhere, wherever. You might never know when you're gonna feel the need. I'm not tied to stay at home kind of guy. So there's a lot of them? Well, a.

[B]

Dozen.

[C]

No. Jesus. Nothing. That won't be that hard. Yeah, we got that. How many in Washington? One relative. How about at least one in Washington? At least one. Is there one that's not relative that we could look for? No, they're all relative. Relevant to. I know you said there was one in Washington relevant to stuff we may be talking about in the future, but. Well, they're all relevant. That's what you have them for.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Right. Yeah, they're.

[B]

All. I.

[C]

Mean, because a lot of the stuff in them at the time that I buried them, you know, it's not.

[B]

Mine. Notice how it's the FBI and not Keys who insinuate that no means less than 12. Here's the thing about the Port Angeles cache. We're fairly certain we know where it is. And if we're correct, it's not far from the Olympic Hot Springs. Two caches close to one another in an area where he likely killed multiple people. Just like Vermont, just like East Texas. And based on new information, this may just be the case in Green River, Wyoming. And in Riverside, California as.

[C]

Well. I worked with Jolene and with the Anchorage person who was in charge of their evidence recovery team. And so I would speak to Jolene and she would tell me what was happening in interrogations and come out. And then I would, you know, put that to work on what I was looking for. And so Jolene ran the team in the investigation room. I kind of ran the team at the lake. And also I then took a different dive team. I supervised a different FBI dive team. The one from New York in a search in upstate New York to find evidence in the Currier case. And so it was a back and forth between Jolene stepping out of her interrogations and calling me, telling me what he was saying about where, you know, certain evidence was supposed to be located, and then, you Know us going out and finding it. And I can tell you that the information that Keith provided as far as where Samantha was and where Mr. Or Mrs. Currier weapon was and he deposited both in the water was unbelievably accurate. It was right where he said we'd find it. He had an incredible.

[B]

Memory of all the caches Keyes had hidden across the country. He gave the FBI Eagle river and Blake Falls Reservoir. And there was nothing incriminating in either. Nothing to connect him to any crimes the FBI didn't already know that he committed. I'm sure this was not coincidental. And while Keyes claimed at first that there were only five, and then later there were 10, based on his statements and travel patterns, it seems that there were, over the course of his last 14 years of life, closer to 19 caches across 13 different states. Alaska, Washington, Oregon, California, Wyoming, Nevada, Texas, Indiana, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine. And next week, we'll get into every single one of.

[C]

Them. How many guns would you say you've had over the years? Months. Would you go through several guns a year? No, in the last 10.

[B]

Years. 10 years.

[C]

Meaning. The ones that are buried, I don't really consider mine. Were they yours? Some of them, but, I mean, it depends on your definition. I know if you take them, they're yours.

[B]

But.

[C]

Right. They become yours. No, I.

[B]

Mean.

[C]

The. The guns that get buried right.

[B]

Away and that I.

[C]

Don'T. That I don't dig up or move around or whatever, those aren't, you know, Some of those aren't mine. That's why they're buried. When you say the ones that are yours, where did you usually get them from? I always got my guns from private partying sales. Sometimes there would be. I mean, you know how it is. Sometimes you take down license, driver's license information with somebody you don't even know. And that's it. I never registered any of them. I'm guessing a lot of people I got guns from didn't have them registered before me. There's people who just swap guns all the time, especially up here. It's like a hobby or something. Well, at least you're getting those guns off the.

[B]

Street.

[C]

Right? It's a lot of what I do that could be considered public service. So do.

[B]

You. I mean, at some point in.

[C]

Time, do you think that you will be telling, like giving. Letting us know where these caches are? Would you remember where they are? Well, yeah. Some of the stuff is going to be relevant. Right. Right. I just fell apart. Hang me as you're villain if you need a brand new star Open through my dreams in early morning you appear when you seem to let the storm in sa. You don't need that I'm not your killer anymore. I'm not your killer anymore. Your second look inside I didn't want this heart to tell me the wrong from right. Premeditated still on the loose simply walk away nothing really left to lose I was your wonder, your second sight I didn't want this heart to tell me the wrong Leave your weapon at the door. Leave your. You don't need them you don't need them cause I'm not your killer anymore I'm not your killer anymore. I'm not your killer. I'm not your killer. Sam.

[A]

It. This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen.

[B]

Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen.

[A]

Yang. Hey Bowen, it's gift.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

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