The Final Keyes Interview

Summary

---

True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode: The Final Keyes Interview (Feb 23, 2026)

Host: Studio BOTH/AND
Key Participants: Israel Keyes, FBI Agents, Attorney Dan Morgan

---

Overview

In this in-depth installment, Josh Hallmark and the True Crime Bullsh** team present coverage of the last interview between serial killer Israel Keyes and law enforcement officials. Drawing from interrogation room audio, the episode explores Keyes’ fraught interactions with the FBI, touching upon evidence in New York and Washington state, the ongoing negotiation over further cooperation, and the psychological chess between Keyes and his interrogators. This conversation reveals new details about Keyes’ methods, caches of evidence, and the delicate balance investigators tried to maintain to extract information on unsolved crimes and missing victims.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Legal Rights and Ground Rules (01:40–04:00)

• The interview opens with FBI agents formally reading Keyes his rights, confirming his understanding, and clarifying the limited scope of discussion to cases excluding Samantha Koenig.
• Keyes waives his right to have his attorney present for this session, opting to proceed alone.

2. The Tupper Lake Search & FBI Technology (04:15–07:33)

• FBI updates Keyes on their planned live-feed searches in Tupper Lake, using GPS mapping and live cameras to review the route of an old bank robbery.
• “It’s kind of scary. I assume some of these places we’re going to go are going to be cell phone only... all those CSI shows, they still can’t usually get the thing solved in 20 minutes.” — Keyes (06:09)
• The challenges of rural searches—with spotty cell coverage and technical limitations—are discussed (07:24–08:21).

3. Forensics Dig into New York Property (08:21–14:13)

• Agents show Keyes photos from his former property in upstate New York and ask about items recovered (books, receipts, old guns/ammo invoices). Keyes reminisces but claims most items pre-date any criminal activity.
• “All the stuff that’s there is like childhood memories.” — Keyes (09:06)
• There’s speculation about the property’s use by strangers (hunters, squatters) and clarification about receipts in Keyes’s name found on site.

4. Clues in the Evidence: Maps, Mattresses, and Fire Pits (17:44–23:20)

• Agents bring up highlighted road maps and a mattress found in the woods with women’s clothing underneath. Keyes reacts bemusedly:
  • “It’s kinky.” — Keyes, about the mattress and women’s clothes (19:09)
• They ask about burnt items in a fire pit and the origins of a men’s ring and necklace, but Keyes distances himself from them:
  • “Anything you found there is probably from hunters or somebody who was camping there.” (19:32)
• Keyes denies burning incriminating evidence there, saying nothing crime-related was burned.

5. Discussion of Vermont and the Courier Case (24:26–35:56)

• Vermont authorities are eager to file charges for the unsolved Courier case. Agents try to persuade Keyes to provide details, hinting they can control media exposure or prosecution pace if he cooperates.
• Keyes is increasingly wary:
  • “It’s a one way street... initially I thought there were ways I could manipulate this situation... by withholding information and giving information out. ...But... I can’t do that, not realistically.” (29:24)
• He expresses distrust, feeling that info he provides invariably becomes public and resenting perceived breaches in the process.
• “As many times as it’s been in the paper and there’s still all this speculation, it hasn’t really taken off. And why do you think that is? Well, I know it’s because you haven’t been giving official statements.” — Keyes (41:21)

6. The Currency of Clues and Cooperation (45:03–56:49)

• Agents press Keyes to offer “a clue”—even a nugget of non-revealing information—to give authorities leverage with state prosecutors and buy time.
• Keyes rebuffs: “You already have a lot of clues... you have that computer... I think you have a lot of background on me at this point.” (45:03)
• The conversation turns to knives used in Washington murders, missing murder weapons, and discussions of knives that may have blood traces.
• On the psychological dynamic:
  • “The thing is, you guys did a pretty good job—the search warrants, there were no statements to the press... no one said a word... but you can only be so discreet...” — FBI Agent (35:34)
  • “You have to go by your playbook, but I refuse to accept that there weren’t ways you couldn’t have been more discreet.” — Keyes (39:00)

7. The Washington Murders & Lake Crescent (59:53–73:46)

• Keyes and agents discuss specifics of the Washington state murders, the weapon used, and the disposal of bodies in lakes.
• Keyes describes:
  • Using milk jugs as makeshift weights (72:50)
  • Lake Crescent as exceptionally deep (“that lake is 5 to 700ft deep... they still haven’t found cars or anything... that’s one of the lakes.” — Keyes (70:13))
  • The bodies not being contained—just ropes and milk jugs.
• Law enforcement relay forensic opinions about body preservation in deep, cold water.

8. Negotiating for More Clues, Caches and “Short Term Needs” (73:53–76:53)

• Agents look for ways to keep Keyes talking—offering lunches or candy bars in exchange for small clues or cache locations.
• Keyes is skeptical but agrees there may be further cooperation “down the road” if timelines and expectations become clearer.
• “If there was a cache that they could go and retrieve, that would keep the FBI busy... I’ll have to think about which ones I’m willing to part with...” — Keyes (66:24)

9. Plans for Next Interview & Ongoing Tension (76:53–78:21)

• The session closes with mutual frustration: the law is playing a waiting game for more from Keyes, and Keyes feels the ticking of time and manipulation, yet holds tightly to his “trading cards.”
• Agents propose future meetings, using technology to virtually revisit crime scenes and locate caches.

---

Notable Quotes

• Israel Keyes:

  • “Initially I thought there were ways I can manipulate this situation... by withholding information... But... I came to the realization that I can’t do that, not realistically.” (29:24)
  • “As many times as it’s been in the paper and... speculation, it hasn’t really taken off... because you haven’t been giving official statements.” (41:21)
  • On the mattress found with women’s clothes: “It’s kinky.” (19:09)
  • “If you gave them a general area, they could probably fix them. We just have to have enough information to get a hold of, you know, attack a person that covers that area.” (67:59)

• FBI Agent:

  • “Once you stop telling us significant information... then these guys couldn’t control what the rest of the FBI is going to do. Playbook says if you’ve got a serial killer, you’re going to go through that house with a fine tooth comb...” (35:32)
  • “Even the stuff that we’ve done... there were no statements to the press that we’re looking for evidence of other crimes...” (35:34)

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Miranda Rights, Legal Setup: 01:40–04:00
• Tupper Lake Search Technology: 04:15–07:33
• NY Property Evidence Review: 08:21–14:13
• Forensics & Miscellaneous Items (maps, fire pit, mattress): 17:44–23:20
• Vermont/Courier Case Frustrations: 24:26–35:56
• Trust, Media, and Negotiation: 35:34–41:21
• The 'Clue' Negotiations: 45:03–56:49
• Washington Murders & Lake Crescent: 59:53–73:46
• Further Caches & Ongoing Bargaining: 73:53–78:21

---

Memorable Moments

• The awkward humor amid dark subject matter (“It’s kinky.” — Keyes, 19:09).
• Keyes wrestling with control and trust, admitting, “My outlook on this as far as the ultimate end result hasn’t really changed... It has more to do with timelines, expectations.” (54:52)
• Detailed discussion of corpse disposal in deep lakes, with chilling matter-of-factness about the bodies.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers listeners a rare, granular look into the final rounds of psychological and legal chess between Israel Keyes and his law enforcement interrogators. The dialogue moves from logistical hurdles, through forensics and evidence, into the shifting power dynamics and fraught negotiations over further confessions. Listeners witness the difficulty of extracting truth and closure from a serial killer who, to the end, guards his secrets closely—even as agents dangle carrots and scramble for crumbs of progress.

---

Transcript

[Commercial Announcer]

Tax season has arrived and doing taxes without the right help can feel overwhelming. Intuit TurboTax is here now to guide you through it with confidence. Match with a TurboTax full service expert who handles everything for you from start to finish. Your dedicated expert checks every single deduction in credit to help you get the best possible outcome so you can feel confident you're getting every dollar you deserve. And the best part? You'll see real time updates on your expert's progress right on your phone while you live your life. Plus, you get unlimited expert help at no extra cost, even on nights and weekends during tax season. Visit turbotax.com only available with TurboTax full service experts. Real time updates only on iOS mobile

app at Lowe's get up to 35%

[FBI Agent]

off select major appliances. Plus members get free delivery, install and

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

more when you spend $2,500 on select major appliances.

[FBI Agent]

Lowe's we help you save valid through 225 while supplies last selection varies by location.

[Commercial Announcer]

Excludes Massachusetts, Maryland, Wisconsin, New Jersey, Florida. Loyalty program subject to terms and conditions.

[FBI Agent]

Visit lowe's.com terms for details. Subject to change. Visit your nearby Lowe's on Colorado street in Kennewick.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry. They've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets. Shop in store or online and save on items like Gummy Savers, Five Flavors, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup Sour Patch watermelon, M&MS. Party size stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[FBI Agent]

You have the right to remain silent. Understand that? Yes. Anything you say can will be used against you in the court of law. You understand that? Yes. You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you're being questioned. You understand that?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yes.

[FBI Agent]

If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before and during any question if you wish. You understand that?

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yes.

[FBI Agent]

You can decide anytime to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that? Yes.

Okay.

Having these rights in mind. You want to talk to us today?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

Okay. We, we just wanted to get that out of the way. Rich is on his way over. Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

This is the email that Rich sent over yesterday.

[FBI Agent]

All right. So he is on his way. Anything you want me he shouldn't be. Candy bar.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Done with the newspaper already.

[Commercial Announcer]

Did you.

What?

[FBI Agent]

Did you just swear off those candy bars? It's in the fridge. I'm gonna eat it. So, anyhow, we'll be back out over here when Rich gets here.

[FBI Agent Frank]

All right?

[FBI Agent]

I won't go anywhere. All right. How are you doing today?

All right.

Hey, just before we start, I know these guys read you your rights earlier.

[Podcast Host]

Yes.

[FBI Agent]

Okay.

And then you were just meeting privately with Rich Turner.

[Commercial Announcer]

Your.

[FBI Agent]

And Rich just came out and indicated that you did not want him to be present today.

Correct.

Okay. So again, I want to make sure we go. We have those ground rules. Rich told me that you indicated you did not want to be present today. So we will take you at your word on that. And if at any time you would like us to call Rich, Matt, or any other attorney to be standby counsel, please let us know.

[Commercial Announcer]

Okay.

[FBI Agent]

All right. We're only going to be talking about things unrelated to the Samantha Cogn case today. Do you understand that?

[Commercial Announcer]

Understood?

[FBI Agent]

Yes. And obviously, without your attorney present in the Kony case, we won't be able to talk about anything related to that case. And if you start to talk about it, you know we're going to have to stop. Yes. All right. That's been sitting in the refrigerator for the.

[Commercial Announcer]

Thank you.

[FBI Agent]

Here's the thing. The FBI's been cleaning out the refrigerator keep. For 100 years or something. All right. So talking about other crimes, we wanted to kind of pick up where we left off on some things, give you any information that you might be thinking about over the last few weeks related to that. And I think we had some updates on the New York search and things like that. So why don't we start there?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Okay. And I. And also the live feed, I wanted to jump into that because I know we came over on Tuesday. We had it set up. We had a couple guys up in Tupper Lake to go over the bank. To go over the bank route. Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

That was a three hour drive. Now, in all fairness, I never set up a specific day, but it actually would have worked because my attorney didn't show up till that afternoon.

[FBI Agent Frank]

All right, well, it didn't work that day, but we had hoped to have it set up today. Since when? We thought you were going to work for today, but Albany had some other stuff come up. But I have to say it was pretty cool. We tested it and the way that. Just so you have an idea of what it looks like and what to expect, because we'll try to set something up for next week. But we did two laptops. One of them was essentially like a tracker. So you had an over an overhead GPS Google Map kind of view. And then the other one was the live feed actually from the camera. And then the plant we had speakerphone. So then you can say, you know, go right here, go left here. And our plan was just to use. Because Tupper Lake's a little more remote than doing it in a city. We wanted to use Tupper Lake and just tackle the bank robbery because that

[FBI Agent]

was make sure we had cell reception or wherever they're getting the signal.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Because depending on where they, where they're at they have to use. Sometimes they'll use satellite, sometimes they'll kind of use different types of things in order to bring them.

[FBI Agent]

Wow, fancy.

[FBI Agent Frank]

It's kind of scary.

[FBI Agent]

I assume some of these places we're going to go are going to be cell phone. Only if finally living up to people's expectations. All those CSI shows, they still can't usually get the thing solved in 20 minutes. Yeah. Really, it's an hour show. But I'm picturing the Google Earth car driving around right here.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So we'd like to still do that.

[Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And I don't, I don't have a day yet. I don't know a specific snow area. There wasn't. If there. There wasn't much.

[FBI Agent]

I mean it wasn't something east coast. But typically the morning works for you. Right. Because that's for the four hour time typically. If we could get that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

Just kind of want to. Don't want to drive three hours again. Maybe we could just do it in Albany or. But we thought the memory lane trip Tupper Lake would be more interesting. Maybe for both of us. Yeah, well I spent a lot of time. I'm sure we can find our way over tomorrow. So you think it next week?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, I don't have a specific date yet. We'll work on setting up a date next week and we'll do it like we did this time. Early enough that if you've got other stuff.

[FBI Agent]

Right.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Try not to make a conflict with that so that we can get you back there by mid morning even.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right?

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

I didn't realize you guys had went all out. You didn't mention that when you came in. I did mention that. You didn't. You weren't in the. You weren't receptive. Well look, that's all right. It's your, it's your decision. But we just want to let you know they're going to set it up next week and it'll be your choice whether to come over or not. But they're probably not going to set keep. They're only able to do this. We'll do it again. Gas is expensive. Keeping it within the budget. Tupper Lake is probably good. Still a good location now. Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Another thing was New York stuff. So what they took from the property in New York.

[FBI Agent]

All right,

[FBI Agent Frank]

This was the. This is the list. Some of it's pretty, you know, kind of generic in terms of the description

[FBI Agent]

of what things wrote.

[FBI Agent Frank]

But I'll show you the old property.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow.

[FBI Agent]

Really going way back, huh?

[FBI Agent Frank]

What stuff?

[FBI Agent]

Just all this stuff. Anything from New York. You're going way back.

[FBI Agent Frank]

When's the last time you were there?

[FBI Agent]

Well, I was there just a year or so ago, but living there, I haven't been interested.

[FBI Agent Frank]

You like stayed there and I.

[FBI Agent]

You went by there in 2011 though, at the courier time. Oh, yeah, yeah. Every time I'm back there I go by. But I. I mean all the stuff that's there is like childhood memories. Did you live there for a period of time? Yeah.

[Commercial Announcer]

How long?

[FBI Agent]

A little less than a year. It's in 97, I think. Yeah, 97.

[FBI Agent Frank]

They look the same.

[FBI Agent]

I'm surprised the rope is still there.

[FBI Agent Frank]

There's a lot of. On one side, it's missing a lot of shingles. I picture these pictures.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah.

I thought last time I was there, I thought the roof was falling in the wrong spot.

[FBI Agent Frank]

But there's some other pictures and apparently the basement. Well, I got some pictures. The basement's got quite a bit of water in it. Oh, here you can see it better.

[FBI Agent]

That's the indoor swimming pool. Yeah. You can see the high groundwater. Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So this is the main. This is the main house because there's a bunch of buildings stuff.

[FBI Agent]

There's like an old garage and an old shed.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And then here's the end of something.

[FBI Agent]

Cool.

[FBI Agent Frank]

In one of these pictures you can. Maybe it's this one. I think it's just the angle. One of the support beams or.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Is coming down and so it's not super stable.

[FBI Agent]

Surprised they were able to get down.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Cut through the window. Came down, put a ladder down through the window.

[FBI Agent]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Went down that way.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah. Those stairs went crazy.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Is that the kitchen of the main house?

[FBI Agent]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Have there been other people staying there that you know of? Is that what all this stuff is from?

[FBI Agent]

This is a close up of that

[FBI Agent Frank]

or was that how it was when you were there?

[FBI Agent]

Last time I was there, it looked like there had been hunters or campers hanging out in there?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Did you spend some time there? Yeah, cuz there was. There was a mattress on one of these floors too. It's not in these pictures. It might be just off the side here. There's a mattress in the kitchen area.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And then what building is that?

[FBI Agent]

What's the garage?

[FBI Agent Frank]

There was no running water.

[FBI Agent]

There was. Yeah. There was an indoor bathroom too.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Oh, there was.

[FBI Agent]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And then you got a third building. Did you guys have animals there at one point? Not like dogs and cats, but like animals in one of these? That's what they said. It looked like it because there was some hay. There's straw and stuff.

[FBI Agent]

Still.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Still. This was a box. Grab that first sheet. There's a receipt on there. You can't really see it in the picture. There was an invoice for some duck fur, some guns and ammo back in 1994. Do you remember what that was for?

[FBI Agent]

I recognize some of the books vaguely, but it's been a while since I've been to any of that stuff.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Did you have a place up there that you go to buy guns?

[FBI Agent]

No, not in New York. I never bought guns officially. I was always under the table.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Okay, get the invoice. Because he said the invoice was in your name in March of 8 of 94. That's what I thought. I thought it had a gun on it. That was my interpretation. But I'll. I'll have him send up the info so we can look at it. Bunch of maps.

[FBI Agent]

Studio both and is sponsored by BetterHelp. Sometimes it can feel like everyone around you has it all together in their love lives. Whether married, dating or single. The truth is, most of us are still figuring it out and finding our ways. Being in a relationship can be just as tough as being single. And no matter where you are in your romantic journey, therapy can help you find your way. It can help you determine what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some pressure off yourself. Look, I've been with my partner for 15 years and it's still a struggle growing together, evolving together, juggling your needs, your wants, your alone time. And therapy has made those 15 years possible. It's February, which means Valentine's, which means flowers, candy, stuffed animals, and of course, lots of talk about relationships and dating. No relationship is perfect. We all have stuff we have to work through. So we all need to stop trying to be the perfect couple or in a perfect relationship, or find the perfect person. We need to be kind to ourselves, take it easy, and figure out how to navigate relationships with the help of a licensed professional. Sign up and get 10% [e-mail] TCB that's better. H E L P.com TCB hey, it's

[Ryan Seacrest]

Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough, cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex, Fast Max Liquid Gels, Vicks Dayquil and nyquil Combo packs, holes, cough drops and Tylenol Children's liquid. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Commercial Announcer]

Are you a fraud paying American? It's a fact that one in four honest, hard working, taxpaying Americans has been a victim of identity theft. With Lifelock Identity Theft Protection though, if your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed and get you your money back. Last year the IRS flagged over $16 billion in refunds for identity fraud. That's billions of dollars that could come from your salary, overtime or second job. But this year you don't need to stay a victim. LifeLock monitors millions of data points per second for your personal information and alerts you to threats you could easily miss on your own. And if your information does fall into the wrong hands only LifeLock has US based restoration specialists who are backed by the million dollar protection package. Because this tax season, fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Visit lifelock.com iheart and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] iheart Terms apply when

[FBI Agent Frank]

it's time to scale your business. It's time for Shopify. Get everything you need to grow the way you want. Like all the way. Stack more sales with the best converting checkout on the planet. Track your cha chings from every channel right in one spot and turn real time reporting into big time opportunities. Take your business to a whole new level. Switch to Shopify. Start your free trial today.

[FBI Agent]

Anything you should do for the day is a computer. Any X's on them anywhere or anything? No X's on my mask. Highlighting highlighting Highlight maps either. The only map you found that had highlighting on it? I didn't believe highlighting. Who did the highlighting on that one? I don't know. I just found that map. What about the map? That one you? I think there was one in the car. I think it was highlighted when I was arrested. Yeah, yeah, but I didn't do the highlighting. It's all the same. I know that's what they were thinking.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Well, it was the interstate that was highlighted, and you don't seem to really be an interstate kind of person.

[FBI Agent]

No, that's just pointing the point of view.

[FBI Agent Frank]

A couple other things. There's a mattress out in the woods. Do you know what that was?

[FBI Agent]

One? No.

[FBI Agent Frank]

There were some clothes under it. There were some women's clothes under it.

[FBI Agent]

I mean, you're not going to find anything relevant on picture.

[FBI Agent Frank]

They were. They were underneath it.

[FBI Agent]

It's kinky.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And then this is a photo from the fire pit area behind the house.

[FBI Agent]

Oh, yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

It's a ring. It's like a men's ring. And those are some, like, beads from the necklace.

[FBI Agent]

Huh? Yeah, I. I haven't burned anything that thick a long time. So anything that you found in there is probably from hunters or somebody who's camping there. I mean, there hasn't been any. I put a gate across the road as soon as my folks moved out of that place, but it only stayed up for a year or two, and then hunters cut it down. What are they hunting with? What's there?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Was there ever a time that you burned anything of significance in that fire pit?

[FBI Agent]

No, not of Great. Anything related to crimes, possibly, but nothing.

This is all.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Nothing like this?

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, that's.

[FBI Agent]

This is all ancient stuff. This is before I. I mean, I haven't really spent much time there ever since I was.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Okay, so this. This isn't going to be a ring to somebody that we need to be worried about.

[FBI Agent]

No.

[FBI Agent Frank]

They have any questions about this stuff? We're going to get all of this up here. And so once we get it up here, we can pull it out. Like, I. We'll grab this stuff to see what that is, what the invoice is.

[Commercial Announcer]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Some of this other stuff. Do you know who's apple on?

[FBI Agent]

Oh, yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We'll bring it in when we get it.

[FBI Agent]

Sure. So I think that you said trip down memory lane.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

There it was. I didn't even realize I still had anything in there. I'm guessing all that stuff was in the garage or something.

[FBI Agent Frank]

It was. It was spread out. I think the box was in the garage. I don't remember where some of the other, like the, you know, some of the other specific stuff, but I know the box. Pretty sure the box is in the garage. And I think jump into this. Just. I had this stuff laid out to show you. Does this place look familiar? Yeah, I think we. We maybe even showed you these before. I Don't know. Okay.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

Was that as they found it?

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah. They might have pulled something away just

[FBI Agent]

so you can see about where it was.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, that was so, like, walking up

[FBI Agent]

on it, you can see it.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We got a

[FBI Agent]

report.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We got all this stuff, sent it into the lab. That's what we do with everything that we get. And the tray, that little X animal in there, There's a perfect right thumbprint.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, right.

[FBI Agent Frank]

No, there is. I don't have the lab report.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Wow.

[FBI Agent]

Oh,

[FBI Agent Frank]

so more CSI stuff.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah. I'm impressed. Well, I'm disappointed in myself, mostly, but I'm sorry.

[FBI Agent Frank]

The lab examiner called me. I don't have the report yet. When I get the report that I'll

[FBI Agent]

show you the report.

[FBI Agent Frank]

It was on one of these two. On the plastic tray inside.

[FBI Agent]

Oh, plastic tray, huh? Like this. This must be the plastic. Like a bottom view of it. Top view of it. Okay. Slides into that cardboard sleeve. Well, it was kind of in a hurry, I guess.

[Commercial Announcer]

Whatever.

[FBI Agent]

Too lazy to even dig a hole for that one. Just piled rocks on top of it. Were you planning on going back for that? Yeah, this summer. I would have had. That would have been a good trip. I still can't get over the whole the disappeared house in Vermont thing. Big plans for this summer back there? Well, you know, I was gonna go back there. I just pictured driving up, looking everywhere for that farmhouse and not being able to find it to burn it down. Yeah, that would have been funny. But whatever you guys did, that's Vermont.

Yeah.

Speaking of Vermont, we were talking to Vermont on Monday, and they want to know what's going on, and they are interested in filing charges as they have been all along. Federal, you know. You don't know. No, no. I mean, we talked about the state and federal prosecutors on Monday, and

we

want to know what we should tell them from your perspective. Well, it's a little hard to talk about the general. Over my general overall perspective right now, for obvious reasons. Well, just tell us your perspective. I understand that, and we're not going to do that, but we're going to. We are interested in your perspective on the courier murders, because that's what they're interested in. And they're. Yeah, they're also interested in, you know, your cooperation on other crimes and where that stands and whether you intend to follow through on some of that. So that's the kind of thing, you know, they're looking forward from us. Well, like I've said all along, my cooperation on other crimes is dependent on what's going on with crimes that I'm already charged with. And I've said that. As far as. I'm losing interest in the legal process, I guess you could say, well, you've known and we've been, you know, we've talked about this quite a bit, that Vermont is willing to be patient if they think that there's forward momentum on solving other crimes, you know, and I know that you don't care about that from the perspective of the family of other victims, but Vermont does. And so there's a way to meet in the middle by giving something that they can then have. No, they don't need to know the details of it, but they need to know we've got some details so that they can continue to hold off. I just don't understand why, even from a legal perspective, I don't understand what the hurry is or what their issue is as to why they want to file charges, additional charges, when I'm clearly already charged with substantial ones. Well, in Vermont, you've got state prosecutors who right now have it unsolved, you know, according to the public, unsolved murder of the couriers. Right. So the law enforcement is under a lot of pressure. They get calls from the press. They're telling us every week, you know, it's a little different. State prosecutors are elected, so I think they probably feel more of a obligation to, you know, inform the public than, you know, people are appointed lifetime prosecutors.

Right.

But since they called off the search for the bodies, as far as the public own, they can't even definitively say that it was a homicide. I know they already told everybody it was. They know that. Vermont.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

So Vermont, let's just be a really realistic approach to it. If you're a state prosecutor in Vermont, you know, you wanted to come out and say, hey, here are the charges we've got. We've got the guy case to solve. That's what you want to do. Right. So you need to give them a reason to say, don't do that. If you don't want me to do that. Well, like I say, my perspective at this point is they're asking for a reason for me to give them a reason not to do that. And. I have no reason to suspect at this point that any information and any further information I give is going to

[FBI Agent Frank]

be used

[FBI Agent]

or portrayed to the media in the way that I'm told it will be or won't be, just because that's the way it's played out so far. So if they're saying, I guess what I'm saying, is they're. From my perspective at this point, it's a one way street. And initially I thought there were ways that I can manipulate this situation, this case, all the related cases to my benefit and on my timeline by withholding information and giving information out. And obviously over the last few months I came to the realization that I can't do that, not realistically. So is that your real recently? Yeah. I think we talked about for a while like you know, an idea of this whole resolution on a courier case being able to kind of structure that disposition around some of your demands. And we touched upon that. And I know that we can't talk about the other case, but. Right. You know, it seems to me that, you know, you give us a list of demands in connection with federal case on the couriers that we can try to at least start meeting those demands and at least say, you know, to Vermont State that there's an expression of an intent to. To continue cooperation in exchange for these types of things. Yeah, I understand what you're saying. The problem is I don't have any typical demands or there's not anything you can offer me at this point. And I realize that now. I realize that there's more to these cases than people who sit in this room. And we're not the ones who pull all the strings on this. I'm realistic about that now. And because of things that have happened over the last couple months, I just feel like there's a lot of information that I've given out to date that 2020 hindsight I wouldn't have given out because I feel like now no matter what I do, it's going to become public anyway. Whereas if I hadn't given it out, you know, it wouldn't have. Because you wouldn't have the information to give out in the first place. Well, I mean from, from our perspective to respect your wishes about keeping the publicity low on this case. And, and I think if you recall, you've even told us that that. Yeah. You understand that we've done that now over time I still things have slowed down. We haven't learned about crimes. Then the FBI and the authorities around the country have to take certain steps. Right. I think the search warrant is an example that you know, they said, hey look, you know, give us a reason to tell our. To tell their bosses why they didn't need to do a search warrant of Kimberly's house, why they didn't need to move forward, but they didn't have any reason. So I think you can see that we can have a lot of control when we have some information from you and cooperation from you. And if we don't, then we all lose control. And even Vermont's letter that I recall, like, you know, they had this letter about, all right, Vermont, this, and we just kind of sit back and we don't get involved. And that was the thrust of that letter. And I think what happened in Vermont after that was sort of a function of, you know, that's not going along with those with that deal. And so I think that that's what ended up happening there. You know, I understand your perspective, but at the same time, you know, I think there is a way to structure a deal around the couriers to satisfy some of your goals. Not every one of them, but, you know, we can't do that unless, you know, we sort of have a in exchange for future cooperation. Here's what I want to happen in

[Ryan Seacrest]

the courier hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry. They've got you covered with ways to boost your mood, add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets, shop in store or online and save on items like Gummy Savers, five Flavors, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup Sour Patch watermelon, M&M's party size stand Up Bags, and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Commercial Announcer]

Most people would rather attend a corporate team building workshop than search for auto and home insurance.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Go team.

[Commercial Announcer]

Feel that synergy. That's why the Zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can compare. [e-mail] who's ready for the trust fall? Here at the Zebra, research shows the average person would rather endure a root canal than search for auto and home insurance.

[FBI Agent]

Just try to relax, okay?

[Commercial Announcer]

Or be trapped in a car for eight hours with toddlers a sugar high or remove a nest of irate hornets. That's why the zebra searches for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can compare. Today at the Zebra.com we do the searching, you do the saving. I think I'll wait inside

[FBI Agent]

case we have that. I think that's a little bit more powerful than the only reason the courier case has even become an issue is because of me wanting to keep control of that situation before it became a situation. That's why we talked about it in the first place. Loose ends, Whatever you want to call it. That was my concern as far as

long term,

clearly this whole situation is going to turn into longer term than I anticipated even from my perspective. And so my position on it at this point is you're asking for more information and I, and still waiting to see what happens with the information I've already given. So essentially. What can happen is, You know, this is, it becomes a one way street until I see, see what comes out the other end on some of these other issues. Well, we're also looking at, from your, from what you expressed earlier that the time frame said are we going to be sitting here a year from now? And this was going back four months or five months. So we're getting a lot closer, I think to the year from now because so, and you know, we've also talked about the way that Vermont initially came out. You know, we were all kind of hadn't fully prepared for what could happen in Vermont. Right. You've said it, we've said it and we've learned things from how we dealt with Vermont that would not need to be repeated in other jurisdictions. So we have information about a victim in another jurisdiction. We can approach them without even giving them any details. I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like there's been several, I don't want to say breach of trust because I know we don't trust each other, but based on initial things that were said verbally, nothing in writing, I know we didn't have agreements harder to fast. I just feel like, you know, especially with the last search warrants that were executed, it was done in a way that was clearly contrary to what my initial intentions were for the way this whole thing would play out. And I hear what you're saying as far as it has to be done, but what I'm doubtful about is the motivation for doing it. Your motivation or the FBI, whoever's, whoever sanctioned that their motivation for doing it in the way that they did it. Well, hey, like you said, you know, you're going to be suspicious of us, we're going to be suspicious of you. But frankly, when we've sat down in this room, everyone here is trying to play straight with you. And I think if you look, if you understand the reality of the situation and you're a pretty reality based guy, I mean, you understand how the world works is once you stop telling us significant information about other crimes, then these guys couldn't control what the rest of the FBI is going to do. And the playbook says if you've got a serial killer, you're going to have to go through that house with a fine tooth comb. Even though they can say, hey, Israel's told us there's nothing there. Well, you know, they're going to do it. And the only way to hold that off is to say, well, look, he's cooperating, he's giving us information, but when you stop, then there's going to be consequences. We're really, we're trying to be as reality based about this thing. We've always given you what we thought was actually going to happen in the real world. And it's the same thing from Vermont. You know, if we had had more information in Vermont would have been a whole lot more quiet and cooperative. As it is, they've been really cooperative. Right. They haven't filed any charges. But, you know, how long can we hold on from them without the piece of information? So, yeah, I mean, you're, you're a reasonable person. Don't you think if. Use somebody else for an example, this, this type of case, someone who's not cooperating and not talking with law enforcement. Don't you think that this would have been viral across the United States, every place you've ever been? Don't you think that, I mean, if you hadn't been talking to us, we don't have any other choice but to try to do it on our own and use all the information that we put together about you and your whereabouts and put it out to those communities for help. And we haven't done that because you've been talking with us. Even the stuff that we've done, I mean, you guys did, I think, a pretty good job. Even on the search warrants, there were no statements to the press that were looking for evidence of other crimes. And, you know, no one stood in front of a camera and did that. I mean, yeah, cameras, you know, may have shown up, but no one said a word, you know, in hopes of still moving forward on this. And you only be so discreet about doing something on like a street that's six houses long. Well, especially if you block it off. Yeah. I mean, but. Well, we were trying to prevent people who we didn't want there to, you know, getting into that. But you can't stop. I'm just saying. Yeah, you've got to go by your playbook, but I refuse to accept that there weren't ways you couldn't have been more discreet or more, you know, that's just my impression. I have nothing to go on other than what I see. And My gut feeling, feeling on stuff at this point because I feel like I get the trickle down bullshit from all parties involved. So, you know, that may or may not be the case, but that's just where I feel like I'm at right now.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

We can't change your feeling, but we can. I mean, we've always come into this room trying to give you the straight scoop and we've tried to deal with you that way because we know that you're a smart guy and you know how the world works. And what I'm sensing, what you're thinking. Tell me now, is you're trying to look at us as if we've been manipulating you somehow. No, I don't think anyone in this room has been manipulating. That's not my concern right now. My concern, you know, you're asking for more information. You talked about it going viral. If I give you, if I give you any more information and it somehow gets out and it gets in the paper again, you know, one more snippet of information could push the whole thing over the edge. And then for the time being, as many times as it's been in the paper and there's still all this speculation, it hasn't really taken off. And why do you think that is? Well, I know it's because you haven't been giving official statements that you could, which I do appreciate that aspect of it. What I'm saying is until I know what's going to happen with certain current issues, my big concern is that, that another rumor gets out. It doesn't have to come from you, just another rumor from somebody I don't know. And then, you know, I'm no longer in touch with all the different. I don't even know what's being said in the media or what has been said about the stories. I see little snippets here and there. But that's my concern is that you, you know, if something else were to get out and especially in a different area or something, then, you know, and, and now there's the whole Neah Bay aspect of it now too. You know, like my kids live in Neah Bay now and gossip is the, is the town pastime. So that's my concern right now is it doesn't even have to be. I feel like at this point it wouldn't even have to be something that was confirmed. It could just be a rumor and. Well, you're not going to get rumors coming out from us and you haven't so far. The stuff that's come out is when there's been. When the people outside of this room feel like that you're not being forthcoming. And I know we can. We can be advocates for how we want to pursue this case, but we need. We need something to. We need material, we need currency. We need something to advocate with. And that's what kind of. Not kind of. That's exactly what we've told you for the last six months or more. Yeah, I understand that. So what about. I mean, just the idea of. And just thinking of that along the lines of what, you know, we can tell them how to sort of stand down even just a clue that doesn't give up anything from your perspective, but at least gives everybody something to work with behind the scenes. Nothing that we, you know, have to kind of go and publicize to the world, but the clue about, you know, one of the past murders, that it's really not going to reveal anything. So you're not playing any cards. But at least where then going back to these guys bosses and to Vermont and saying, look, he's given us a clue in exchange for this sort of discretion for everybody to kind of stand down, so to speak. Well, first of all, I don't know. You already have.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Sure.

[FBI Agent]

You already have a lot of clues that I don't know about. You have that computer. You wouldn't be giving anything away. I'm just saying I think you have a lot of background on me at this point. I'm sure that I don't even remember at this point.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So the bosses above us, though, don't know what's on that computer. And I know what's on that computer. So let's just use Frank's example for a second. So if you were to give us a clue. They don't know. Our bosses don't know what. Bosses don't know what is on that computer.

[FBI Agent]

So they won't be here next time.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So they're not gonna know if we already knew that or not.

[FBI Agent]

Vermont doesn't know either. They haven't seen the evidence. So you could be giving us nothing. But at least it's something we report to something he reported that he committed a murder in Exit. Okay, big deal. It's not gonna give us anything after, you know, given the timeline that you've set forward 14 years. But at least it's some sort of sign of progress. We can go back and say, no, no, he's actually given us a clue and things are moving forward and they can sort of feel good about themselves not doing. When you say clue, are you talking about giving you names? No, just a name. But give us a name, state and a time frame. Hey, you already know some of the states. Sure, sure. But give us something that we progress from where we were months ago is what we're looking for. Frank hadn't talked about this clue idea, but something that we don't. Obviously you can tell us something we already

[Ryan Seacrest]

hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough, cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex Fast Max liquid gels, Vicks Dayquil and nyquil Combo packs, Halls, cough drops and Tylenol Children's liquid. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Commercial Announcer]

Here at the Zebra, research shows the average person would rather endure a root canal than search for auto and home insurance.

[FBI Agent]

Just try to relax, okay?

[Commercial Announcer]

Or be trapped in a car for eight hours with toddlers on a sugar high. Or remove a nest of irate hornets. That's why the Zebra search is for you. Comparing over 100 insurance companies to find savings no one else can Compare. [e-mail] we do the searching, you do the saving. I think I'll wait inside.

At blinds.com, it's not just about window treatments. It's about you, your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail] the only thing we treat better than Windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 50% off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.

[FBI Agent]

But he knows what's been discussing here. But, you know, let's assume that something from your perspective, you're not giving us anything because you think, hey, we already have it. It's a clue and it's just something that gives us credibility that we can report, even though maybe this is just a fiction you give us. All right, you New York, New Jersey. All right, well, you told us in Jersey or, you know, something, something other. Other thing that we can kind of report back that, you know, allows us a little bit of credibility with the people that we have to deal with. Something. Did you find any knives in New York or in the boat? Folding knives. They're about 6 inches long. I don't know. I think there might have been in the boat. You told us there was. You thought there was knives in the boat, right? There's two knives that were not in Kimberly's house, and I don't remember. I don't know where they were. I thought they were in that bucket. I thought that they were. I may have left one in New York or there. I thought there might have been just knives that I had from a long time ago. But I haven't seen him in any of the pictures, so I don't guess hit or.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, I can find out about. I don't. I think there was a knife on the. But I don't remember. I don't remember a knife being in

[FBI Agent]

the bucket, though, in the photos. Well, there was a folding knife years and years ago. But why is that knife. Well, it's a folding knife, so I don't know. If you took it apart, you might. Wouldn't be blood on the knife. There will or might not want it. The kind that has the. The handles are actually bolted or screwed to it or something. It's not a solid piece. In other words, you can disassemble it in some manner. Yeah, it's like rivet doing that. Is the. Would the blood be from a long time ago or just the knife? No, the blood's not from a long time ago, but I haven't. I haven't carried it for a while, so I couldn't remember where it. When I left it. Any other places where it might be? No, I don't. Well, it was in the boat. It was a long, long time ago. Well, 2005, right? Yeah. I mean, they're. They're both times that I. And would those be associated with the Washington murders? Yeah.

[FBI Agent Frank]

On those lines, while I'm waiting for Ted to respond,

[FBI Agent]

Ted's the guy that was. That you met with a lot of timers up here. He's lying.

[FBI Agent Frank]

From Ted on those lines. We talked to someone out at the lab when we were talking about, you know, when the time comes when you decide that you want to give additional information so that we're prepared on what we need to do to be able to respond quickly. We asked about, you know, what are the chances of. If there is someone that is somebody that. If there's a body at the bottom of the lake, what are the chances of that body still being intact seven years later? That kind of thing. What are we going to be looking for and what do we need to have in place in order to be able to find that? And one of the things that they said which might be of interest to you is depending on how the body was put down there, its potential, it's possible that the body is actually very intact. If the body was just tied to something and dropped it to the bottom of the leg, there's definitely still going to be long bones and that kind of stuff. You won't have finger bones and that kind of stuff. There'll be femurs and long bones and that kind of thing. If the body was contained in something, even a bag of some sort, it's very possible that the body could still be intact, depending on the depth of the lake. All of that determines the kind of equipment that we would need in order. In order to locate. Locate the body. And so obviously not asking for details about where and who and all that kind of stuff, but in terms of the Washington bodies, were they contained in something or were they just tied to the milk jugs? I mean, is it something where we. We might possibly actually still get it intact?

[Commercial Announcer]

No.

[FBI Agent Frank]

No.

[FBI Agent]

Okay.

[FBI Agent Frank]

And that's helpful for them to know because that. That's a whole different type of search, that it would have to be then, a different type.

[Commercial Announcer]

And do you.

[FBI Agent]

I guess, because I'm kind of getting a different vibe now. I just want. Do you still envision in the future us working together to the point where we can get this information? Yeah, I don't see how we're going to get anything else done. I just. I know you're waiting for, you know, whatever you're waiting for to find out, but. Yeah, I have concerns with current issues, but, you know, I. I can definitely foresee down the road there's going to be a lot more that can be resolved. Okay. And that's good. I think about it in a different manner. Okay, well, but that's good information because we'll be able to pass that on. If you're still open and you're still. No, I haven't. My outlook on this as far as the ultimate end result hasn't really changed.

It's just.

Has more to do with timelines, expectations.

[FBI Agent Frank]

But.

[FBI Agent]

And you know, we're. The balancing game we're. That we're talking about doing is we're just trying to keep everybody happy the best we can until we get to that point. And those are the. Those are the. That's kind of a difficult balancing act for us. Right. It sounds like you're holding on to some of this stuff to trade in for something you might need later. True. Well, yeah, I have much else. But I mean, that's the thing. It's, you know, this whole clue idea, you know, Mike gave us a little short term solution solution to keep this thing moving the way we want it to move and maybe even get you something in the short term. You know, if you're thinking about like, I don't know, you know, you come, you give a clue and, you know, you want lunch or something like that. I mean, that's something that can be worked out. You need a candy bar. I know, that's what I think. You know, I don't know if he feels guilty about it, but you had a cigar. You probably pass out a cigar right now. I put anything in the notion. The notion of this whole idea is, you know, hey, you come over, we keep things going, you know, at least on a smaller scale. You're not giving up anything in terms of trading value, but you're giving us credibility with other people we have to deal with. You're not giving us any useful information really, other than all right, well, we got, you know, a knife in Washington. It's not like we're going to solve the clue game on that like, you know, professor Plum in the library type of thing, but it gives us a little bit of, you know, stuff to go back with people and buy time and buy what we need to buy. And, you know, in the short term, you know, you have short term needs that you think, you know, might be fun to have Sushi, that's something that, you know, can be arranged. We're not talking about, you know, huge clues here.

[Commercial Announcer]

Jack Harndale was helping his daughter Emily lift an awkward dresser up a staircase when he slipped and fell backwards. A week later, Emily asked him how he was doing.

[FBI Agent]

I'm good.

[Commercial Announcer]

Truth was, he wasn't good. Jack needed help. Then the darndest thing happened. Emily called Pacific Source, my health plan. Jack learned that Pacific Source provides members with support beyond healthcare. In Jack's case, we got him in touch with local food bank.

[FBI Agent]

You guys do that?

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes, we do.

Jack.

Pacific Source Health Plan.

[Podcast Host]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

[Commercial Announcer]

Say hi, Dan.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Hey, how's it going today?

[Podcast Host]

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion won. 20 million is an insane number.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan, what would I do if I got into an accident?

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247365.

[FBI Agent]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

[FBI Agent]

What did you guys find in the boat? Was there anything left? I thought we went over. I saw the list.

[FBI Agent Frank]

There was no knife. Oh, you mean in terms of the lab.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah,

[FBI Agent Frank]

it has not everything has not gone to finished up at DNA yet. So it's possible that there were still there were some areas that did test positive for blood. Just when they do like a presumptive test when the people that were searching it. So those things went into the lab and some of those things were like the screws from holding the carpeting in and that kind of thing. Those have not come back yet from DNA. The little, there were some little fragments that they thought might have been bone fragment. Was not bone. Did not test positive for bone. That one's come back. Yeah, they didn't want any. We didn't ask what it was, but it was a bone. There's some hair that is not yours. But the way they figure out hair.

[FBI Agent]

I was, I was mostly curious if they found any blood.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, there was.

[FBI Agent]

I wasn't sure how long because it's been sitting there in the rain for so long. I was curious if there was. I mean I know there was when I parked it.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, there was. I don't. We haven't heard anything back about it. And then they need something to compare it with.

[FBI Agent]

Right. So there's no night.

[FBI Agent Frank]

No night. There's no knife.

[FBI Agent]

It may have been. I don't know what happened to that knife. It was a tonto. Cold steel Tonto.

[FBI Agent Frank]

How big? Like was it a.

[FBI Agent]

It had a. It was a four, four and a half, half inch folding blade and I think I bought it at Walmart.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Do you remember what color?

[FBI Agent]

It looks very similar to the one that I had on me when I was arrested. Just a different blade style, same Company and everything. So if I'm correct about that, that was the murder weapon for one of Washington murders. Well, it was involved. It was involved. I think we talked about before when we were asking about federal jurisdiction about guns.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[FBI Agent]

Were they. Were any. Were either of those victims shot?

[Commercial Announcer]

No.

[FBI Agent]

No. Straight. We'll get the whole story eventually. We're just part so that we can move. No, the only person I ever shot was Bill Courier. Everybody else is strengthened. Yeah. I don't want to have the wrong impression, you know, so everybody else is trying to work. Was there something else? Oh, one of the Washington things. There was. It doesn't matter. It's just. No, it wasn't. It wasn't strangled. I hit somebody in the head. So did you mean to kill him or they died? Was there a struggle and you hit them and they died, or what? Did you mean to kill him that way? Wouldn't try and kill him. I just took him out of action. I think he read that in one of those letters with the. The male, female combo. I saw Rich mentioned that they gave you all that stuff. I should have asked him to give me copies. So I know which ones you have. We could go over that together and you could fill any blanks at some point in time. Well, we know in Washington. I didn't realize they were allowed to take stuff out of my cell. Well, we know from that that there was a couple in Washington state. Couple. We read that in the middle. Are those the same couple from the. That you took to the boat and dumped in the lake? Yeah. That was a while. That was a long time ago. Right after the. Is that right after the military? You told us once. Right after the military. After you got out of the military. It was before I got the boat. And you had told us one time that, you know, it wasn't long when you got out of the military, that you killed somebody and it was that sort of feeling that you needed to do something that was hard to resist. Is it fair to say that we were looking at a lot around. More around the Washington area than not. Just the two in Washington? No, there's a couple. There's a couple in Washington and then the two. Is that right? Yeah. So if we can't find this knife, unfortunately, that doesn't give us much to go on.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We took.

[FBI Agent]

I know we had some guys. I don't know what all we have. Is it possible it was at Kimberly's? I don't think so. I haven't seen it for several years. Could be in a different Washington cache.

[FBI Agent Frank]

No. Do I want to talk to that?

[Ryan Seacrest]

No.

[FBI Agent]

A couple of husband and wife. Do you know. I'm not going to talk about this. What about their cache? It's like another cache. It. Well, the other crashes aren't related to any. I mean, that one in New York is the only one directly related to the murderous part. But the guns. Some of the guns were stolen. Well, that would give us something to go on. If there was a cache that they could go and retrieve, That would keep. I think that would keep the FBI busy. Yeah. I'll have to think about which ones I'm willing to part with. If you thought it all still belongs to me. Have a candy bar. If you. If you thought one that you wanted to give up, that maybe we might be able to work something out with our video.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

[FBI Agent]

Well, that's another issue. Is there the others? I. I can't find just the satellite map, so. General areas. Yeah. Well, if you gave them a general area, they could probably fix them. We just have to have enough information to get a hold of, you know, attack a person that covers that area.

[Commercial Announcer]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

So again, you know, be a cash. It's not related to anything. So you're really not giving up any cards to trade with. Well, that's the issue. They're all related to stuff. They're just. Yeah, I just have to think about it. Well, they want to try and remember what's in. Yeah. Yeah. But it's sort of interesting for you too. You'll get to see what's in there and you'll get to see them again. Yeah, like one of those oh moments. You dig it up and I see what's in there. Israel, there's been too many o. Yeah, well, I've had enough. I've had my sheer the year. This is just the way. Why don't you.

Why don't you.

If you were able to do that, that's going to buy us and give everybody something to do. And people like to have something to do. They can be digging up a cache. And then you'll get to see the other video works and you'll get to see what's in there. How long does a body last in freshwater lake because there's no critters that eat.

[Podcast Host]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

[Commercial Announcer]

Say hi, Dan.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Hey, how's it going today?

[Podcast Host]

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan. Which is America's largest injury law firm.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently that said 20 billion won. 20 million is an insane number.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually I think somewhere north. Probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

[Podcast Host]

Awesome. So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan, what would I do if I got into an accident?

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

[FBI Agent]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

[FBI Agent Frank]

It depends how. It depends how deep. I learned a lot. And if the body's contained in something

[FBI Agent]

and it's not critters, it can be like bacteria organisms.

[FBI Agent Frank]

They were talking if the water is

[FBI Agent]

below say 45 degrees breathe all the time. I think you said they up to 80ft at one point in time. You told us. No, there's one that's even a lot deeper than that. Like 200ft. So we should like get a submarine or deeper. Deeper than 200ft. You guys know about Lake Crescent in Washington? How deep is it? I think that lake is 5 to 700ft deep. They've never been to the bottom of it. There's people who've gone off that lake. They still haven't known their cars or anything. And that's the lake. That's one of the lakes. So this is really deep. So this thing you're never going to be able to recover. Well, that's the deepest part. But I'm saying I don't know how deep it was. I know the general area. I had a fish finder but it, it didn't register how deep it was. I just felt like it was over maxed out at 100ft. Oh, is that your fish Find the ghost of wonder. I think. I don't remember. I just know if you've been to the lake you would see what I'm talking about drops down like a V. So but you didn't go to the 500 foot place as far as. No, I wasn't. I was in a. I was near the edge. But you know, 30ft out from the bank on that lake, it goes it drops down to 50, 60 already. And I was.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Anyway, the lab was talking about a case recently actually, where they recovered a car that had been submerged in water. I don't know how deep it was even in, but it was. It was a relatively cold lake. And because it had been submerged and water still got in, but critters and other people weren't able to get in the car. And that was in the 40s, in the 1940s. And part of the body was still intact because the person was protected. Protected by the car. So if there's a lot of factors that go into it, but there will definitely. Even if there isn't skin or things like that, long bones will be. Can be recovered just because small bones.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, I know they tend to move around.

[FBI Agent Frank]

But if there's other. If there's other specifics in terms of things that you know, of depths and temperatures and that kind of stuff, you can certainly make some phone calls and find out what.

[FBI Agent]

Well, that. I figured you would have guessed that, like, that was pretty obvious. But I always have been curious as to what I would think. As deep as that lake is, it's probably sitting there just in time, exactly as it was when it first touched down. It could be. I know most freshwater lakes that eat. There aren't even that many fish that go down that deep, but that one's not in anything. It's just ropes or something holding it. Is that the milk jugs? Well, that's what the weights were. Milk jugs. How many milk jugs? Is it going to move around? No. How many milk jugs? At least four or five, I would think. Just for one body.

Yeah.

What about a cache that they can work on for next week? Well, the easiest would be Washington, so my way around there a little better, but I have to. Trying to remember what's in it. Do you want them to line. Do you want them to line it up? That's the thing. It can't be. We can't make the decision that day because they won't have time to. Yeah, they won't have time to line it up. You think about it over like. Yeah, but you think about it over the weekend or something. Yeah. And if there's anything you want, give me like an hour on the Internet maybe

before.

Before we do this, you do a little research. I've been. I've been. I've been an info blackout for too long. I think that's, you know, you can think about that. If there's anything you want short term in terms of. I was Joking. I would. Is that a no? I'm not talking about the Internet. I'm talking about like, yeah, if you want some sort of. All right, I'm gonna do this. But you wouldn't do that on the Internet. If we set a computer down here, you're just gonna go, right? Sue everywhere I went. I wouldn't do that to you.

But yeah.

Know anything, you know, to kind of satisfy any short term goals you have, even if it's just food or coffee or you know, whatever. Obviously a coffee anyway. But again, it's sort of a situation where I think you're not giving up anything. Giving us help with whoever we need to persuade.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

I think it, you know, no, I, I can see your, I, I see

[Commercial Announcer]

your point of view.

[FBI Agent]

I do on this, but at the same time I have my own frustrations right now as well. So. But, but even like this is productive. This will be viewed as productive. You know, I mean you said you, you came over. We, we got stuff and so it's only productive from a non prosecuting attorney point. It's productive. Elvis, you already got me on enough stuff. It's okay. It's okay. You know, I'm getting out on bail anytime soon. That I'm not working. Trying to work with you. I am, but from my perspective, you know, Israel said he's going to do a lot of things in a short time frame and we've been sitting year. Yeah. Collecting the months away and believe me, I'm aware of the months clicking. I'm just. Having an appreciation for things being done at a different speed, that's all.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So let me just make sure I'm clear on the cash. Do you have a general area now that you, you can give us or do you want to think about it?

[Commercial Announcer]

Washington.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Right.

[FBI Agent Frank]

But I mean even there's big state. We have, we have offices in a bunch of places. So we have to figure out which office we're working with.

[FBI Agent]

Within 50 or 100 miles of.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Is there anything close to Nia Bay or out area?

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, not near Nia Bay, but in that, that area.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Okay.

[FBI Agent]

Outside of Seattle. Between Seattle and. Yeah, right. You already met those agents already, so it's not like.

[FBI Agent Frank]

There's more pictures from this too. I didn't grab them all. I can print them all out and have them for you next time. I know there were a couple. Of gun parts and pieces, but I don't.

[FBI Agent]

Picture stuff's nice.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Okay, so do you want me to try to set that up for next week? I don't know. I'M obviously not going to know a

[FBI Agent]

day until Port Angel. Is there somewhere? Port Angel,

[Podcast Host]

I've got Dan Morgan here on the pod.

[Commercial Announcer]

Say hi, Dan.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Hey, how's it going today?

[Podcast Host]

It's going good, man. Tell us who you are and what you do.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

I'm Dan Morgan. I'm an attorney and a managing partner at Morgan and Morgan, which is America's largest injury law firm.

[Podcast Host]

That's pretty awesome. I think I saw a billboard of yours recently. It said 20 billion one. 20 billion is an insane number.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Yeah, 20 billion recovered. It's actually, I think somewhere north, probably closer to 22, 23 after this year. And each year we get bigger and badder and our army grows. So the number will hopefully keep getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

[Commercial Announcer]

Awesome.

[Podcast Host]

So how does someone get in contact with Morgan and Morgan? What would I do if I got into an accident?

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Probably the easiest way is dialing pound law. That's £529 from your cell phone. We are always open. Our call center is always waiting to take your call. 247 365.

[FBI Agent]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

Dan Morgan from Morgan and Morgan, America's largest injury law firm. Thanks for coming by the show.

[Attorney Dan Morgan]

Thanks for having me. Visit forthepeople.com for an office near you.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, I don't. Don't set up a time yet. I gotta try and remember. Once you get the computer, you can look right now if you want. Is that gonna help an area? Google. You can look at Google right now if you want, when you know the area. I'm trying to remember what's in it. He's trying to remember what. That's probably not gonna be on Google. Find that together. We'll just either open it up or do like one as well. It's not that impressive. I'm more concerned about the little stuff that might be in it. Well, well, well. Things you never thought you'd be talking about.

And then.

On the Tupper Lake thing, you had agents up there with the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about the bank robbery or were you? Well, we. What we had set up was we just had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you the live feed that we could do.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We can talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[FBI Agent]

We didn't have any expectations, but we thought the natural progression because of what we've been talking would be in that general area. So we wanted to get things moving there. Right. You know, and if you wanted to just like pull out of the parking lot and then take us to the Riverbend.

[Podcast Host]

All the better.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, I was just. You would be driving. Yeah, it would be like you'd be driving, so. Because we thought maybe that's how it's going to have to be eventually maybe, is that you might have to be in the driver's seat, so to speak, to see, you know, landmarks or what. Whatever you need to see. Yeah. It's almost as good as being out. I like to tell you we were going to drive you to the dig site and we were going to show you what we were doing, but. I'm having a harder time remembering roads than Port Angeles, and I wasn't. I'm sure I can figure it out. All right, well, so we won't set it up. We'll just.

[FBI Agent Frank]

We'll get them working on it, though,

[FBI Agent]

because get that tech.

[FBI Agent Frank]

Yeah, tech geeky guy has stuff. They're geeks. Get the camera and get everything all kind of set up.

[FBI Agent]

Right.

[FBI Agent Frank]

So we will get that moving and then we can touch, basically beginning of next week

[FBI Agent]

and

[FBI Agent Frank]

have a better idea of what your schedule is going to be like and figure out what it will. And I'll know at that point what their schedule is going to be and we can maybe figure out some time before work.

[FBI Agent]

Yeah, we might be. We might be able to have another meeting next week anyway. Apparently that was the issue tonight.

[FBI Agent Frank]

All right, what we may do then, Jeff, is. Jeff and I may come by the jail and just figure out that piece that we were just talking about about the timing and the. And we can go from there.

[FBI Agent]

In the meantime, I'm supposed to talk to my mom tomorrow, and I'll just tell them that, you know, just move up clues and use that to our advantage. Yeah, I don't really understand how old or. Frustrating from our perspective as well. I mean, hypothetically, if they charge me federally, would you indict. Would they indict me up here? I just don't understand, considering everything else that's going on, why they would. Or how. I guess not why, but how it would work, the logistics of it. Well, like I said, they want. They want to be able to. That's how that. That crime.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

They want to. They want to put my name on it. I understand that it's not going to be officially solved, so. Exactly. I know, but, you know, they want to be able to put your name to it. Right. And then the question is how to work. Do they want to file the charges there? And, you know, that's what we're doing, and it's a lot easier for them just to stomach it. If they, you know, their forbearance is giving rise to clues to other murders, you know, whatever those clues might be, I think that is able to accomplish our goal. I understand their perspective. Yes. From my perspective though, even if they were to officially charge me at this point, it's not like it would be real breaking. I think, you know, in some ways it would be because no law enforcement person has ever confirmed that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[FBI Agent]

So it would just be confirmation of everyone's current speculation. Exactly. So I, I, I don't, I'm not interested in it from that point. I was just interested in it from a logistics point, like where do they have to fly me to Vermont if they're going to charge me or. Those are some of the questions. Hoping not to get there. Is it warmer in the morning? Just got snow the other day. We talked on Monday and it just snowed. They told us they got more snow than us then. Yeah. Got a quota for last year? Yeah. Any other questions? You gotta take a leap or anything before we take on that? You're not gonna eat this?

No, I'm good. Thank you.

Sure. Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's cough cold and flu season. Do not get caught feeling under the weather. Get back to feeling good with savings on all your cold and flu Essentials now through February 24th. Shop in store or online to stock up and save on items like Mucinex, Fast Max liquid gels, Vicks, Dayquil and nyquil. Combo packs, Halls, cough drops and Tylenol Children's liquid. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Commercial Announcer]

Are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud with Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Last year billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to stay a victim because this tax season, fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.