The Final Keyes Interview (Ad-free)

Summary

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True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation

Episode: The Final Keyes Interview (Ad-Free)

Host: Studio BOTH/AND
Date: February 23, 2026

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Overview

This episode features the final interrogation of serial killer Israel Keyes by a group of FBI agents, focusing on crimes other than the well-known Samantha Koenig case. The discussion is a tense, revealing look at Keyes' psychology, his negotiation tactics, the FBI’s efforts to gather evidence on his additional crimes, and the ongoing tug-of-war between the need for closure (for both law enforcement and victims’ families) and Keyes’ desire to maintain control. Throughout, listeners witness both the granular details of investigative work and the broader strategy—on both sides—of how information will be shared and used.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Miranda Rights and Legal Boundaries (00:00–02:26)

• Initial Setup: The interview starts with agents reading Keyes his rights. He confirms understanding and waives the right to counsel for this session, but only for matters unrelated to the Samantha Koenig case.
• Legal Limits: Agents clarify they can't discuss the Koenig case without his attorney present.

2. Technology in Investigation: The "Virtual Drive" Through Tupper Lake (03:05–06:31)

• FBI describes using live video feeds, GPS trackers, and Google Maps for remote site visits. They explain plans to use this technology for a "memory lane" walkthrough with Keyes, targeting the Tupper Lake area and a bank robbery investigation.
• Memorable Moment:
  • Israel, joking about advanced technology:
    • "So it's finally living up to people's expectations. All those CSI shows, they still can't usually get the thing solved in 20 minutes." (04:34)
• Goal: Use technological aids to jog Keyes' memory and direct field teams efficiently.

3. Retrieving and Analyzing Evidence From Keyes' New York Property (06:41–17:18)

• Agents show Israel photos of property in New York, asking for context on various items recovered: a mattress, maps, a ring, beads, old receipts (some for guns/ammo), and items around a fire pit.
• Keyes notes much of what's left are "childhood memories," suggesting some items were left by hunters or vagrants.
• Discussion about guns, maps, possible highlighted areas, and whether anything of evidentiary value related to homicide was present at the property.
• Notable Quote:
  • On the fire pit:
    • "I haven't burned anything in that pit for a long time, so anything that you found in there is probably from hunters or somebody who's camping there." (14:34)

4. Negotiation & Trust: Cooperation for Closure (19:19–34:59)

• Vermont authorities want to file murder charges for the unsolved Courier case but have been waiting for Keyes’ further cooperation.
• Agents explain their position: Keyes' cooperation has so far kept media exposure and investigative pressure at bay; without more details, they risk losing control over information flow and official process.
• Keyes expresses deepening mistrust, frustration with media leaks, and concern for his personal control.
• Insightful Quote:
  • "Initially I thought there were ways that I can manipulate this situation … by withholding information and giving information out. And obviously over the last few months I came to the realization that I can't do that, not realistically." (24:27)
• Agents urge for minimal clues to keep law enforcement and media at bay.

5. "The Clue Game": Trading Information (37:43–49:00)

• Agents propose that even a small, seemingly insignificant 'clue' (location of a cache, vague timeframes, or states where murders occurred) would help sustain the negotiation, buy more time, and satisfy administrative superiors without Keyes having to "give up his cards."
• Keyes remains cautious, questioning what agents found (e.g., any "folding knives" in boats or caches), subtly acknowledging links to murders without naming victims or specifics.
• Memorable Exchange:
  • Agent Frank: "You need a candy bar in there." (47:54)
  • Israel: "It's not like we're going to solve the clue game on that, like, you know, Professor Plum in the library type of thing ..."(48:27)

6. Forensics and Physical Evidence (17:23–62:15)

• Discussion about the discovery of thumbprints on recovered containers, possible locations of murder weapons, and findings of blood and hair in Keyes' boat.
• Debate on how long bodies may persist in freshwater lakes, referencing deep lakes like Lake Crescent in Washington—suspected scene of victim disposal.
• Notable Moment:
  • Israel, on Lake Crescent:
    • "I think that lake is 5 to 700ft deep. They've never been to the bottom of it. There's people who have gone off that lake. They still haven't their cars or anything." (60:36)

7. Unresolved Murder and Evidence Caches (56:17–71:21)

• Officers push for specifics on hidden caches of evidence (guns, other tools), suggesting such tips would "keep the FBI busy," buy time, and potentially lead to more relaxed handling of Keyes and his remaining secrets.
• Keyes remains noncommittal, asking for time to recall locations and contents of caches, hinting that they all have some significance.
• Key Dialogue:
  • Israel: "The easiest would be Washington, so I don't know my way around there a little better." (63:45)
  • Agents offer to facilitate the process, even allowing Keyes some internet time for research as a (joking) trade.

8. Media, Mistrust, and Ongoing Negotiation (34:59–76:27)

• Keyes reiterates anxiety about leaks, community rumors, and losing control of the public narrative—for example, about his ties to Neah Bay, where his child lives.
• Agents stress the practical realities they face: if Keyes stops talking, they’ll have to publicize evidence for tips, regardless of his preferences.
• Discussion closes with logistics: how clues, caches, or possible indictments might be handled depending on his cooperation, with the focus returning to practicalities rather than breakthroughs.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "So it's finally living up to people's expectations. All those CSI shows, they still can't usually get the thing solved in 20 minutes." — Israel (04:34)
• "Anything you found in there is probably from hunters or somebody who's camping there. ... I haven't really spent much time there ever since I was in the army." — Israel, on his old property (14:34)
• "Initially I thought there were ways that I can manipulate this situation, this case, all the related cases, and to my benefit and on my timeline, by withholding information and giving information out. And obviously over the last few months I came to the realization that I can't do that, not realistically." — Israel (24:27)
• "But you can't stop. I'm just saying. Yeah, you've got to go by your playbook, but I refuse to accept that there weren't ways you couldn't have been more discreet or more. You know, that's just my impression. I have nothing to go on other than what I see and my gut feeling on stuff at this point because I feel like I get the trickle down bullshit from all parties involved." — Israel (34:31)
• "It's not like we're going to solve the clue game on that like, you know, Professor Plum in the library type of thing, but it gives us a little bit of ... stuff to go back with people and buy time." — Agent Frank (48:27)
• "I was mostly curious if they found any blood. ... I mean, I know there was when I parked it." — Israel, about his boat (50:08)
• "I think that lake is 5 to 700ft deep. They've never been to the bottom of it. There's people who have gone off that lake. They still haven't their cars or anything." — Israel, about Lake Crescent (60:36)
• "I'm having a harder time remembering roads than Port Angeles ... I'm sure I can figure it out."—Israel (71:03)
• "You already got me on enough stuff." — Israel (65:59)

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Key Timestamps

• [00:00–02:26] — Miranda rights, legal limits, session boundaries
• [03:05–06:31] — FBI's virtual crime scene walkthrough, technology use
• [06:41–17:18] — New York property evidence, fire pit, maps, weapons
• [19:19–34:59] — Vermont case, negotiation over cooperation, media concerns
• [37:43–49:00] — The “clue game,” bartering for small bits of information
• [56:17–71:21] — Push for evidence caches, consideration of what might be safely revealed
• [60:36] — Discussion of Lake Crescent, body disposal, and forensic realities
• [71:03–72:40+] — Logistics for ongoing cooperation, concluding remarks

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is tense and calculated, with moments of dark humor and banter (about candy bars, CSI shows), but always undercut by the reality of the crimes at hand. Keyes oscillates between arrogance, cagey negotiation, and hints of frustration as he realizes his power to manipulate the investigation is waning. The agents walk the line between appealing to Keyes' desire for control and pressing for the smallest actionable lead—whether a “clue,” a cache, or just a waypoint for future discussions. Both sides acknowledge the unique stalemate: justice and closure hinge not just on investigative skill, but on the psychology and whims of a serial murderer coming to terms with his dwindling leverage.

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This summary highlights the core content of the final Keyes interview and should serve as a comprehensive resource for listeners and investigators seeking a detailed but accessible account of this pivotal episode.

Transcript

[Agent Smith]

You have the right to remain silent. Understand that?

[Israel]

Yes.

[Agent Smith]

Anything you say can. Will be used against you in a court of law. You understand that?

[Agent Johnson]

Yes.

[Agent Smith]

You have the right to talk to a lawyer and have him present with you while you're being questioned. You understand that?

[Agent Johnson]

Yes.

[Agent Smith]

If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer, one will be appointed to represent you before and during, any question, if you wish. Do you understand that?

[Agent Johnson]

Yes.

[Agent Smith]

You can decide any time to exercise these rights and not answer any questions or make any statements. You understand that? Yes.

[Israel]

Okay.

[Agent Smith]

Having these rights in mind. You want to talk to us today?

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Johnson]

Okay.

[Israel]

We.

[Agent Smith]

We just wanted to get that out of the way. Rich is on his way over. Okay.

[Agent Davis]

This is the email that Rich sent over yesterday.

[Agent Smith]

All right, so he is on his way. Anything you want. Anything Long wait.

[Israel]

He shouldn't be. Candy bar.

[Agent Davis]

Done with the newspaper already.

[Israel]

Did you.

[Agent Smith]

What did you swear off those? Candy bar. It's in the fridge. I'm gonna eat it. So, anyhow, we'll be back out over here when.

[Israel]

All right.

[Agent Smith]

Rich gets here.

[Agent Davis]

All right.

[Israel]

I won't go anywhere. All right.

[Agent Johnson]

How are you doing today, Israel? All right. Hey, just before we start, I know these guys read you your rights earlier.

[Agent Smith]

Yes.

[Announcer]

Okay.

[Agent Johnson]

And then you were just meeting privately with Rich Burner, and Rich just came out and indicated that you did not want him to be present today.

[Israel]

Correct. Okay.

[Agent Johnson]

So, again, I want to make sure we don't have those downloads. Rich told me that you indicated you did not want me present today, so we will take you at your word on that. If, at any time you would like us to call Rich, Pat, or any other attorney to be standby counsel, please let us know.

[Agent Smith]

Okay.

[Israel]

All right.

[Agent Johnson]

We're only going to be talking about things unrelated to the Samantha Conan case today.

[Agent Frank]

You understand that?

[Israel]

Understood?

[Agent Smith]

Yes.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Johnson]

And obviously, without your attorney present in the Kon case, we won't be able to talk about anything related to that case. And if. If you start to talk about it, you know we're going to have to stop being with you. Okay.

[Israel]

Yes. All right.

[Agent Johnson]

That's been sitting in the. In the refrigerator for the.

[Israel]

Thank you.

[Commercial Voice]

Here's the.

[Agent Johnson]

Here's the thing. The FBI's been cleaning out the refrigerator

[Israel]

keep for 100 years or something.

[Agent Johnson]

All right, so talking about other crimes, we wanted to kind of pick up where we left off on some things, give you any information that you might be thinking about over the last few weeks related to that. And I think we had some updates on the New York search and things like that. So why don't we start there?

[Agent Davis]

Okay. And also though the live feed, I wanted to jump into that because I know we came over on Tuesday. We had it set up. We had a couple guys up in Tupper Lake to go over the bank. To go over the bank rob. Yeah.

[Agent Smith]

It was a three hour drive.

[Israel]

In all fairness. I never set up a specific day, but it actually would have worked because my attorney didn't show up till that afternoon.

[Agent Davis]

All right, well, it didn't work that day, but we had hoped to have it set up today. Since when? We found out you was gonna work for today. But Albany had some other stuff come up. But I have to say it was pretty cool. We tested it and the way that. Just so you have an idea of what it looks like and what to expect. Cause we'll try to set something up for next week. But we did two laptops. One of them was essentially like a tracker. So you had an overhead gps, Google Map kind of view. And then the other one was the live feed actually from the camera.

[Israel]

Camera.

[Agent Davis]

And then the plan, we had speakerphone. So then you can say, you know, go right here, go left here. And our plan was just to use. Because Tupper Lake is a little more remote than doing it in a city. We wanted to use Tupper Lake and just tackle the bank robbery because that

[Agent Smith]

was make sure we had cell reception or wherever the hour getting the signal.

[Agent Davis]

Because depending on where they, where they're at, they have to use. Sometimes they'll use satellite, sometimes they'll kind of use different types of things in order to bring them.

[Israel]

Wow, fancy.

[Agent Smith]

I assume some of these places we're going to go are going to be cell phone only.

[Israel]

So it's finally living up to people's expectations. All those CSI shows, they still can't

[Agent Johnson]

usually get the thing solved in 20 minutes.

[Israel]

Yeah. Really, it's an hour show.

[Agent Frank]

But I'm picturing the Google Earth car driving around.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Davis]

So we'd like to still do that.

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Davis]

And I don't, I don't have a day yet. I don't know what's the snow there yet.

[Israel]

Probably there wasn't.

[Agent Davis]

If there. There wasn't much.

[Agent Frank]

I mean it wasn't something east coast.

[Agent Smith]

But typically the morning works for you.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Right.

[Agent Smith]

Because that's for the four hour time. Typically. If we could get that.

[Announcer]

Yeah.

[Agent Smith]

Discounter wanted.

[Agent Johnson]

Don't want to drive three hours again.

[Agent Smith]

Maybe we could just do it in Albany or. But we thought the memory lane trip, Tupper Lake would be more interesting. Maybe for both of us.

[Agent Frank]

Yeah.

[Israel]

Well, I spent A lot of time. I'm sure we can find our way over.

[Agent Johnson]

So you think it next week?

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, I don't have a specific date yet, but we'll work on setting up a date next week and we'll do it like we did this time. Early enough that if you've got other stuff, try not to make a conflict with that so that we can get you back there by mid morning even.

[Israel]

Right?

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah.

[Israel]

I didn't realize you guys had went all. I don't know. You didn't mention that when you came.

[Agent Smith]

I did mention that.

[Israel]

You didn't.

[Agent Smith]

You weren't in the. You weren't receptive.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, look, that's all right.

[Agent Frank]

It's your.

[Agent Johnson]

It's your decision. But we just want to let you know they're going to set it up next week and it'll be your choice whether to come over or not. But they're probably not going to set. They're only able to do this.

[Agent Smith]

We'll do it again.

[Israel]

Gas is expensive.

[Agent Johnson]

Keeping it within the budget.

[Agent Frank]

Tupper Lake is probably good. Still a good location now.

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Davis]

Another thing is New York stuff. Tell you what they took from the property in New York. All right. This was the. This is the list. Some of it's pretty, you know, kind of generic in terms of the description

[Agent Johnson]

of what these were, but I'll show

[Agent Davis]

you the old property.

[Israel]

Wow. Really going way back, huh?

[Agent Davis]

What stuff?

[Agent Smith]

All this stuff.

[Israel]

Anything from New York. You're going way back.

[Agent Davis]

When's the last time you were there?

[Israel]

Well, I was there just a year or so ago, but living there, I haven't been interested.

[Agent Davis]

You like stayed there and I.

[Agent Smith]

You went by there as a 2011

[Agent Johnson]

at the Courier time.

[Israel]

Oh yeah, yeah. Every time I'm back there I go by. But I, I mean all the stuff that's there is like childhood memories.

[Agent Frank]

Did you live there for a period of time?

[Israel]

Yeah. How long? A little less than a year.

[Agent Smith]

Well, it's in 97, I think.

[Israel]

Yeah, 97.

[Agent Davis]

The roof the same.

[Israel]

I'm surprised the rope is still there.

[Agent Davis]

There's a lot of. On one side, it's missing a lot of shingles. Which of these pictures.

[Israel]

I thought last time I was there

[Agent Johnson]

I thought the roof would fall in

[Agent Davis]

one spot, but there's some other pictures and apparently the basement. Well, I got some pictures. The basement's got quite a bit of water in it. Oh, here you can see it better.

[Israel]

That's the indoor swimming pool.

[Agent Smith]

The high groundwater.

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah.

[Agent Davis]

So this is the main. This is the main house because there's A bunch of buildings.

[Israel]

There's like an old garage and an old shadow.

[Agent Davis]

And then here's the end of something.

[Israel]

Pool.

[Agent Davis]

In one of these pictures. You can maybe it's the center thing. It was just the angle. One of the support beams is coming down and so it's not super stable.

[Israel]

Surprised they were able to get down.

[Agent Davis]

Pass through the window. Came down, put a ladder down through the window.

[Israel]

Okay.

[Agent Davis]

Went down that way.

[Israel]

Yeah, those stairs went pretty soon.

[Agent Davis]

Is that the kitchen of the main house? Yeah. Have there been other people staying there that you know of? Is that what all this stuff is from?

[Agent Johnson]

This is a close up of that

[Agent Davis]

or was that how it was when you were there?

[Israel]

Last time I was there, it looked like there had been hunters or campers hanging out in there.

[Agent Davis]

Did you just spent some time there? Yeah, because there was. There was a mattress on one of these floors too. It's not in these pictures. It might be just off the side here. There's a mattress in the kitchen area.

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Davis]

And then what building is that?

[Israel]

That's the garage.

[Agent Davis]

There was no running water.

[Israel]

There was. Yeah. There was an indoor bathroom too.

[Agent Davis]

Oh, there was.

[Agent Johnson]

Okay.

[Agent Davis]

And then you got a third building. Did you guys have animals there at one point? Not like dogs and cats, but like animals in one of these? That's what they said. It looked like it because there's some hay. There's straw and stuff still around. This was a box. Grab that first sheet. There's a receipt on there. You can't really see it in the picture. There's an invoice for some gun. For some Guns and ammo back in 1994. Do you remember what that was for?

[Israel]

I recognize some of the books vaguely, but it's been a while since I've been to any of that stuff.

[Agent Davis]

Did you have a place up there that you go to buy guns?

[Israel]

No, not in New York. I never bought guns officially. I was always under the table.

[Agent Davis]

Okay, we'll get the invoice. Because he said the invoice was in your name in March of 8th of 94. That's what I thought. I thought it had a gun on it. That was my interpretation.

[Israel]

But I'll.

[Agent Davis]

I'll have him send up the images so we can look at it. Bunch of maps?

[Agent Frank]

Yeah.

[Agent Smith]

Anything you should do any X's on them anywhere?

[Israel]

Anything?

[Agent Frank]

No highlighting.

[Israel]

The only map you found that had highlighting on it.

[Agent Johnson]

I didn't believe highlighting. Who did the highlighting on that one? I don't know.

[Israel]

I just found that map.

[Agent Johnson]

What about the map that when you Were.

[Agent Smith]

I think there was one in the car.

[Agent Johnson]

I think it was highlighted when I was arrested.

[Israel]

Yeah. Yeah, but I didn't do the highlighting. That's all I'm saying. I know that's what they were thinking.

[Agent Davis]

Well, it was the interstate that was highlighted, and they don't seem to really be an interstate kind of person.

[Israel]

No, that's just.

[Agent Davis]

A couple other things. There's a mattress out in the woods. Do you know what that was from?

[Israel]

No.

[Agent Davis]

There were some clothes under it. There were some women's clothes under.

[Israel]

I mean, you're not gonna find anything relevant on that property.

[Agent Davis]

They were. They were underneath it. Kinky. And then this is a photo from the fire pit area behind the.

[Israel]

Oh, yeah, It's a ring.

[Agent Davis]

Looks like a men's ring. And those are some beads from the necklace,

[Israel]

huh? Yeah. I haven't burned anything in that pit for a long time, so

[Agent Frank]

anything that

[Israel]

you found in there is probably from hunters or somebody who's camping there. So. I mean, there hasn't many. I put a gate across the road as soon as my folks moved out of that place, but it only stayed up for a year or two, and then hunters cut it down.

[Agent Smith]

What are they hunting with?

[Israel]

What's there?

[Agent Davis]

Was there ever a time that you burned anything of significance in that fire pit?

[Israel]

No, not of grace.

[Agent Davis]

Anything related to crimes?

[Israel]

Possibly, but nothing. This is all.

[Agent Davis]

Nothing like this?

[Announcer]

No, that's.

[Israel]

This is all ancient. I mean, I haven't really spent much time there ever since I was in the army. Okay.

[Agent Davis]

So this. This isn't going to be a ring to somebody that we need to be worried about, but I think the rest of these were.

[Israel]

There.

[Agent Davis]

Have any questions about this stuff? We're going to get all of this up here, and so once we get it up here, we can pull it out. Like, I will grab this stuff to see what that is, what the invoice is.

[Israel]

Okay.

[Agent Davis]

Of this other stuff, You know, who's Apple watching?

[Agent Johnson]

Oh, if you.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, we'll bring it in when we get it.

[Commercial Voice 2]

Sure.

[Agent Davis]

So I think that anything you said.

[Agent Smith]

Trip down memory lane. Yeah, there it was.

[Israel]

Yeah. I didn't even realize I still had anything in there. I'm guessing all that stuff was in the garage or something.

[Agent Davis]

It was. It was spread out. I think the box was in the garage. I don't remember where some of the other, like the. You know, some of the other specific stuff, but I know the box. Pretty sure the box was in the garage. I think he sent me this quick juice. I have this stuff laid out to show you. Does this place look familiar? Yeah, I think we. We may have even showed you these before.

[Israel]

I don't know. I saw the ones of the guns.

[Agent Davis]

Okay. Yeah.

[Israel]

These are as they found it.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah. They might have pulled something away just

[Agent Smith]

so you can see about where it was.

[Israel]

I was going to. I was going to say I thought I kind of camouflaged it.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, that was so, like, walking up

[Israel]

on it, you can see it.

[Agent Davis]

We got a. We got all this stuff, sent it into the lab. That's what we do with everything that we get. And on the tray that holds the animal in there, there's a perfect right thumbprint.

[Israel]

Yeah, right.

[Agent Davis]

No, there is. I don't have the lab report.

[Israel]

Wow.

[Agent Johnson]

Oh,

[Agent Davis]

so more CSI stuff?

[Agent Frank]

Yeah.

[Israel]

I'm impressed. Well, I'm disappointed in myself mostly, but I'm.

[Agent Davis]

The lab examiner called me. I don't have reporting. When I get the report that. I'll show you the report, but I'm not BSing it. It was on one of these two. On the plastic tray inside.

[Agent Smith]

Like this must be the plastic.

[Agent Johnson]

Like a bottom view of it or top view of it.

[Israel]

Okay.

[Agent Smith]

Slides into that cardboard sleeve.

[Israel]

Well, I was kind of in a hurry, I guess. Whatever. Too lazy to even dig a hole for that one. Wild rocks on top of it.

[Agent Johnson]

Were you planning on going back for that?

[Israel]

Yeah, this summer. That would have been a good trip.

[Agent Johnson]

I still can't get over the whole.

[Israel]

The disappeared house in Vermont.

[Agent Smith]

You have big plans for this summer back there?

[Israel]

Well, you know, I was gonna go back there. I just pictured driving up, looking everywhere for that farmhouse and not being able

[Agent Smith]

to find it, to burn it down.

[Israel]

Yeah, that would have been funny.

[Agent Johnson]

Speaking of Vermont. Yeah, speaking of Vermont. We were talking to Vermont on Monday, and they want to know what's going on. And they are interested in filing charges, as they have been all along. Federal, you know. You don't know.

[Agent Smith]

No, no.

[Agent Johnson]

I mean, we talked to both the state and federal prosecutors on Monday, and we want to know what we should tell them from your perspective.

[Israel]

Well, it's a little hard to talk about the general. Over my general overall perspective right now. Obvious reasons, so.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, just tell us your perspective. I understand that, and we're not going to do that, but we're going to. We are interested in your perspective on the courier murders, because that's what they're interested in.

[Agent Frank]

And they're. Yeah, they're also interested in, you know, your cooperation on other crimes and where that stands and whether you intend to follow through on some of that. So that's the kind of thing, you know, that they're looking forward from us.

[Israel]

Well, like I've said all along, my cooperation on other crimes is dependent on what's going on with crimes that I'm already charged with. And I've said that all.

[Agent Johnson]

As far as.

[Israel]

I'm losing interest in the legal process,

[Agent Johnson]

I guess you could say. Well, you've known and we've been, you know, we've talked about this quite a bit, that Vermont is willing to be patient if they think that there's forward momentum on solving other crimes, you know, and I know that you don't care about that from the perspective of the families of other victims, but Vermont does. And so there's a way to meet in the middle by giving something that they can then have. No, they don't need to know the details of it, but they need to know we've gotten some details so that they can continue to hold off.

[Israel]

I just don't understand why, even from a legal perspective, I don't understand what the hurry is or what their issue is as to why they want to file charges, additional charges, when I'm clearly already charged with substantial ones.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, in Vermont, you've got state prosecutors who right now have it unsolved, according to the public. Unsolved murder of the couriers.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Johnson]

So the law enforcement is under a lot of pressure.

[Agent Frank]

They get calls from the press. They're telling us every week, you know, it's a little different. State prosecutors are elected, so I think they probably feel more of a obligation to form the public then, you know, people are appointed lifetime prosecutors.

[Israel]

Right. But since they called off the search for the bodies, as far as the public owns, they can't even definitively say that it was a homicide. I know they already told everybody it was.

[Agent Johnson]

They know that.

[Israel]

Vermont.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Agent Johnson]

So Vermont as you guys, let's just be a really realistic approach to it. If you're a state prosecutor in Vermont, you know, you want to come out and say, hey, here are the charges.

[Agent Smith]

We've got.

[Agent Johnson]

We've got the guy case solved. That's what you want to do, Right. So you need to give them a reason to say, don't do that.

[Agent Smith]

If you don't want me to do that.

[Agent Johnson]

I mean, if that's the.

[Israel]

Well, like I say, my perspective at this point is they're asking for a

[Agent Smith]

reason

[Israel]

for me to give them a reason not to do that.

[Agent Smith]

And.

[Israel]

I have no reason to suspect at this point that any information and any further information I give is going to be used or portrayed to the Media in the way that I'm told it will be or won't be just because

[Agent Johnson]

that's the way it's played out so far.

[Israel]

So if they're saying. I guess what I'm saying is from my perspective at this point, it's a one way street. And initially I thought there were ways that I can manipulate this situation, this case, all the related cases, and to my benefit and on my timeline, by withholding information and giving information out. And obviously over the last few months I came to the realization that I can't do that, not realistically.

[Agent Johnson]

So is that your real recently?

[Agent Frank]

Yeah, I think we've talked about for a while like, you know, an idea of this whole resolution on the courier case being able to kind of structure that disposition around some of your demands. And we touched upon that and I know that we can't talk about the other case, but.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Frank]

You know, it seems to me that, you know, you give us a list of demands in connection with federal case on the couriers that we could try to at least start meeting those demands. And we say, you know, to Vermont State that there's an expression of an intent to continue cooperation in exchange for these types of things.

[Israel]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. The problem is I don't have any typical demands or there's not anything you can offer me at this point. And I realize that now. I realize that there's more to these cases than people who sit in this room. And we're not the ones who pull all the strings on us. I'm realistic about that. And because of things that have happened over the last couple months, I just feel like there's a lot of information that I've given out to date that 2020 hindsight I wouldn't have given out because I feel like now no matter what I do, it's going to become public anyway. Whereas if I hadn't given it out, it wouldn't have. Because you wouldn't have the information to give out in the first place.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, I mean from our perspective, we've done a lot to respect your wishes about keeping the publicity low on this case. And I think if you recall told us that, that. Yeah, you understand that we've done that now over time as things have slowed down, we haven't learned about war crimes. Then the FBI and the authorities around the country have to take certain steps. I think the search warrant gives an example that, you know, they said, hey, look, you know, give us a reason to tell our, to tell their bosses why they didn't need to do a search warrant of kuber release house

[Israel]

that

[Agent Johnson]

they didn't have any reason. So I think you can see that we can have a lot of control when we have some information from you and cooperation from you. And if we don't, then we all lose control.

[Agent Frank]

And even Vermont's letter that I recall, like, you know, they had this letter about our this and we just kind of sit back and we don't get involved. And that's the thrust of that letter. And I think what happened in Vermont after that was sort of a function of, you know, we're sort of not going along with those with that deal. And so I think that that's what ended up happening there. You know, I understand your perspective, but at the same time, you know, I think there is a way to structure a deal around the couriers to satisfy some of your goals. Not every one of them, but, you know, we can't do that unless, you know, we sort of have an exchange for future cooperation. Here's what I want to happen in the courier case.

[Israel]

We have that.

[Agent Frank]

I think that's a little bit more concrete than ever.

[Israel]

The only reason the courier case has even become an issue is because

[Agent Smith]

of

[Israel]

me wanting to keep control of that situation before it became a situation. That's why we talked about it in the first place. Loose ends, whatever you want to call it. That was my concern as far as long term, clearly this whole situation is going to turn into longer term than I anticipated, even

[Agent Johnson]

from my perspective.

[Israel]

And so my position on it at this point is you're asking for more information and I am still

[Commercial Voice]

waiting to

[Israel]

see what happens with the information I've already given. So essentially. What can happen is, You know, this is. It becomes a one way street until I see what comes out the other end on some of these other issues.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, we're also looking at, from your, from what you expressed earlier, the time frame said, are we going to be sitting here a year from now? And this was going back four months or five months. So we're getting a lot closer, I think to the year from now because so. And we've also talked about the way that Vermont initially came out. You know, we were all kind of hadn't fully prepared for what could happen in Vermont.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Johnson]

You've said it, we've said it. And we've learned things from how we dealt with Vermont that would not need to be repeated in other jurisdictions. So if we have information about a victim in another jurisdiction, we can approach them without even giving them any details.

[Israel]

I hear what you're saying, but at the same time I feel like there's been several, I don't want to say breach of trust because I know we don't trust each other, but

[Commercial Voice]

based on

[Israel]

initial things that were said verbally, nothing in writing, I know we didn't have agreements hard and fast. I just feel like, you know, especially with the last search warrants that were executed, it was done in a way that was clearly contrary to what my initial intentions were for the way this whole thing would play out. And I hear what you're saying as far as it has to be done, but what I'm doubtful about is the motivation for doing it. Your motivation or the FBI, whoever's, whoever sanctioned that, their motivation for doing it

[Agent Smith]

in the way that they did it.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, hey, like you said, you know, you're going to be suspicious of us, we're going to be suspicious of you. But frankly, when we sat down in this room, everyone years trying to play straight with you, I think if you, look, if you understand the reality of the situation and you're a pretty reality based guy, I mean you understand how the world works is once you stop telling us significant information about other crimes, then these guys couldn't control what the rest of the FBI is going to do. And the playbook says if you've got a serial killer, you're going to have to go through that house, right, with a fine tooth comb. Even though they can say, hey, Israel's told us there's nothing there. Well, you know, they're going to do it. And the only way to hold that off is to say, well look, he's cooperating and he's giving us information, but when you stop, then there's going to be consequences. We're really, we're trying to be as reality based about this thing. We've always given you what we thought was actually going to happen in the real world. And it's the same thing from Vermont. You know, if we had had more information from Vermont, Vermont would have been a whole lot more quiet and cooperative. As it is, they've been really cooperative. Right. They haven't filed any charges. But you know, how long can we hold on to them without another piece of information?

[Israel]

So

[Agent Smith]

you're a reasonable person, don't you think if you use somebody else for an example, this type of case, someone who's not cooperating and not talking with law enforcement, don't you think that this would have been viral across the United States, every place you've ever been, don't you think that I mean, if you hadn't been talking to us, we don't have any other choice but to try to do it on our own and use all the information that we've put together about you and your whereabouts and put it out to those communities for help. And we haven't done that because you've been talking with us.

[Agent Frank]

Even the stuff that we've done, I mean, you guys did, I think, a pretty good job.

[Israel]

Even on the search warrants, there were

[Agent Frank]

no statements to the press that were looking for evidence of other crimes. You know, no one stood in front of a camera and did that. I mean, yeah, cameras, you know, may have shown up, but no one said a word, you know, in hopes of still moving forward on this.

[Agent Smith]

And you only be so discreet about doing something on like a street that's six houses long.

[Israel]

Well, especially if you block it off.

[Agent Smith]

Yeah, I mean, but. Well, we were trying to prevent people who we didn't want there to, you know, getting into that. But you can't stop.

[Israel]

I'm just saying. Yeah, you've got to go by your playbook, but I refuse to accept that there weren't ways you couldn't have been more discreet or more. You know, that's just my impression. I have nothing to go on other than what I see and my gut feeling on stuff at this point because I feel like I get the trickle down bullshit from all parties involved. So, you know, that may or may not be the case, but that's just where I feel like I'm at right now.

[Announcer]

Right.

[Agent Johnson]

We can't change your feeling, but we can. I mean, we've always come into this room trying to give you the straight scoop and we've tried to deal with you that way because we know that you're a smart guy and you know how the world works. And what I'm sensing, what you're telling me now is you're trying to look at us as if we've been, you know, manipulating. No, no, I don't think anyone in

[Israel]

this room has been manipulating. That's not my concern right now. My concern, you know, you're asking for more information. You talked about it going viral. If I give you, if. If I give you any more information and it somehow gets out and it gets in the paper again, you know, one more snippet of information could push the whole thing over the edge, you know, and then for the time being, as many times as it's been in the paper and there's still all this speculation, it hasn't really taken off.

[Agent Johnson]

And why do you think that is?

[Israel]

Well, I know it's because you haven't been giving official statements that you could, which I do appreciate that aspect of it. What I'm saying is until I know what's going to happen with certain current issues, my big concern is that another rumor gets out. It doesn't have to come from you, just another rumor from somebody I don't know. And then, you know, I'm no longer in touch with all the different. I don't even know what's being said in the media or what has been said about the stories. I see little snippets here and there. But that's my concern is that, you know, if something else were to get out and especially in a different area or something, then, you know, and now there's the whole Nea Bay aspect of it now too. You know, like my kids live in Neah Bay now and gossip is the. Is the town pastime. So that's my concern right now is it doesn't even have to be. I feel like at this point it wouldn't even have to be something that was confirmed.

[Agent Johnson]

It could just be a rumor. And well, you're not going to get rumors coming out from us, and you haven't so far. The stuff that's come out is when there's been. When the people outside of this room feel like that you're not being forthcoming. And we can be advocates for how we want to pursue this case, but we need, we need something to. We need material, we need currency, we need something to advocate with. And that's what kind of. Not kind of. That's exactly what we've told you for the last six months or more.

[Israel]

Yeah, I understand that.

[Agent Johnson]

So what about.

[Agent Frank]

I mean, just the idea of. And I'm just thinking along the lines of what, you know, just sort of stand down. Even just a clue that doesn't give up anything from your perspective, but at least gives everybody something to work with behind the scenes. Nothing that we, you know, have to kind of go and publicize to the world, but the clue about, you know, one of the past murders, that it's really not going to reveal anything, so you're not playing any cards. But at least where then going back to these guys bosses and to Vermont and saying, look, given us a clue in exchange for this sort of discretion for everybody to kind of stand down, so to speak.

[Israel]

Well, first of all, I don't know. You already have.

[Agent Davis]

Sure.

[Israel]

You already have a lot of clues that I don't know about.

[Agent Frank]

You have that computer you wouldn't be giving anything away.

[Israel]

I'm just saying you have. I think you have a lot of background on me at this point. I'm sure that. That I don't even remember at this point.

[Agent Davis]

So the bosses above us, though, don't know what's on that computer. So let's just use Frank's example for a second. So if you were to give us a clue. They don't know. Our bosses don't know what. Our bosses don't know what is on that computer.

[Agent Johnson]

So we won't be here next time.

[Agent Davis]

So they're not gonna know if we already knew that or not.

[Agent Frank]

Vermont doesn't know either. They haven't seen the evidence, so you could be giving us nothing. But at least it's something we report today. He reported that he committed a murder in. Okay, big deal. It's not going to give us anything after, you know, given the timeline that you've set forth. 14 years. But at least it's some sort of sign of progress. We can go back and say, no, no, he's actually given us a clue and things are moving forward and they can feel good about themselves not doing.

[Israel]

When you say clue, are you talking about giving you names?

[Agent Johnson]

No, not just the name, but give us the name, some stated and time frame.

[Israel]

Hey, you already know some of the states.

[Agent Johnson]

Sure, sure. But give us something that we. Progress from where we were months ago is what we're looking for. Means Frank hadn't talked about this clue

[Commercial Voice 2]

idea,

[Agent Johnson]

but something that we don't. Obviously you can tell us something we already have discussed in here.

[Agent Frank]

That's not a process because everybody knows what's been discussed in here. But, you know, let's assume it's something from your perspective. You're not giving us anything because you think, hey, we already have it. It's a clue. And it's just something that gives us credibility that we can report. Even though, you know, maybe this is just a fiction. You give us New York, New Jersey. All right, well, you told us in Jersey. Or, you know, something. Something other. Other thing that we can kind of report back that, you know, allows us

[Agent Smith]

a little bit of credibility with the

[Agent Frank]

people that we have to deal with something.

[Israel]

Did you find any knives in New York or in the boat? Folding knives. They're about 6 inches long.

[Agent Johnson]

I don't know.

[Agent Smith]

I think there might have been in the boat. You told us there was. I thought there was knives in the boat.

[Israel]

Right. There's two knives that were not in Kimberly's house, and I don't remember I don't know where they were. I thought they were in that bucket. I thought that they were. I may have left one in New York or there. I thought they're mounted around the boat just nice that I had a long time ago. But I haven't seen him in any of the pictures, so I don't test it or.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, I can find out about this.

[Israel]

I don't.

[Agent Davis]

I think there was a knife on it, but I don't remember. I don't remember a knife being in the bucket, though.

[Israel]

There is a folding knife,

[Agent Johnson]

But why is that knife?

[Israel]

Well, it's a folding knife, so I don't know. If you took it apart, you might.

[Agent Johnson]

Would there be blood on the bolt there?

[Israel]

Well, there might not on it, but

[Agent Smith]

the kind that has the handles are actually bolted or screwed to it or something. It's not a solid piece. In other words, you can disassemble it in some manner.

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah, it's like riveted to. Is the. Would the blood be from a long time ago or just the knife?

[Israel]

No, the blood's not for a long time, but I haven't. I haven't carried it for a while, so I couldn't remember where it.

[Agent Johnson]

When I left it. Any other places where it might be? No. At all?

[Agent Smith]

Well, it was in the boat. It was a long time.

[Agent Johnson]

A long time ago.

[Israel]

Well, 2005, right?

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah.

[Israel]

I mean, they're. They're both times that I dropped before that.

[Agent Johnson]

And would those be associated with the Washington murders? Yeah.

[Agent Davis]

On those lines, while I'm waiting for Ted to respond,

[Agent Smith]

test again.

[Agent Johnson]

It was that you met with loved

[Agent Smith]

ones that were up here.

[Agent Davis]

From Ted, on those lines, we talked to someone out at the lab when we were talking about, you know, when the time comes when you decide that you want to give additional information so that we're prepared on what we need to do to be able to respond quickly. We asked about, you know, what are the chances if there is someone that is somebody that. If there's a body in the bottom of the lake, what are the chances of that body still being intact seven years later?

[Commercial Voice 2]

That kind of thing.

[Agent Davis]

What are we going to be looking for and what do we need to have in place in order to be able to find that? And one of the things that they said which might be of interest to you is depending on how the body was put down there, it's potential, it's possible that the body is actually very intact. If the body was just tied to something and dropped it to the bottom of the lake, there's Definitely still going to be long bones and that kind of stuff. You don't have finger bones and that kind of stuff. There'll be femurs and long bones and that kind of thing. If the body was contained in something, even a bag of some sort of. It's very possible that the body could still be intact depending on the depth of the lake. All of that determines the kind of equipment that we would need in order, in order to locate, locate the body. And so obviously not asking me for details about where and who and all that kind of stuff, but in terms of the Washington bodies, were they contained in something or were they just tied to the milk jugs? I mean, is it something where we, we might possibly actually still get it intact?

[Agent Smith]

No.

[Israel]

No. Okay.

[Agent Davis]

And that's helpful for them to know because that, that's a whole different type of search, that it would have to be that person that's. Not answering.

[Israel]

And do you.

[Agent Smith]

I guess because I'm kind of getting a different vibe now.

[Agent Johnson]

I just want.

[Agent Smith]

Do you still envision in the future us working together to the point where we can get this information?

[Israel]

Yeah, I don't see how we're going to get anything else done. I just,

[Agent Smith]

I mean, you're waiting for, you know, whatever you're waiting for to find out.

[Israel]

Yeah, I have concerns with current issues but you know, I,

[Agent Smith]

I can definitely

[Israel]

foresee down the road there's going to be a lot more that can be resolved.

[Agent Smith]

And that's good.

[Israel]

I like about it in a different manner. Okay.

[Agent Smith]

But that's good information because we'll be able to pass that on. If you're still open and you're still.

[Israel]

No, I haven't. My outlook on this as far as the ultimate end result hasn't really changed.

[Agent Davis]

It's just

[Israel]

has more to do with timelines, expectations. But.

[Agent Smith]

And you know, and we're. The balancing game that we're talking about doing is we're just trying to keep everybody happy the best we can until we get to that point. And those are the, those are the. That's kind of a difficult balancing act for us.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Frank]

It sounds like you're holding on to some of this stuff to trade it something you might need later. True.

[Israel]

Well, yeah,

[Agent Frank]

that's the thing is, you know, this whole clue idea, it might give us a little short term solution, keep this thing moving the way we want them to move and maybe even get you something in the short term. You know, if you're thinking about like, I don't know, you know, you come, you give a clue and, you know, you want lunch or something like that. I mean, that's something that can be worked out.

[Agent Smith]

You need a candy bar in there.

[Agent Frank]

I know, that's what I think. You know, I don't know if he

[Agent Smith]

feels guilty about it, but you had a cigar. You probably, probably pass out if you had a cigar right now.

[Agent Frank]

I put any notion. The notion of this whole idea is, you know, hey, you come over, we keep things going, you know, at least on a smaller scale. You're not giving up anything in terms of trading value, but you're giving us credibility with other people we have to deal with, you know, not giving us any useful information really, other than all right, well, we got, you know, a knife in Washington.

[Israel]

It's not like we're going to solve

[Agent Frank]

the clue game on that like, you know, Professor Plum in the library type of thing, but it gives us a little bit of, you know, stuff to go back with people and buy time and buy what we need to buy. And you know, in the short term, you know, if you have short term needs that you think, hey, you know, it might be fun to have sushi. That's something that, you know, can be arranged. We're not talking about, you know, huge clues here.

[Israel]

What did you guys find in the boat? Was there anything left?

[Agent Smith]

I thought we went over Ted and Colleen.

[Israel]

I saw the list.

[Agent Davis]

There was no knife. Oh, you mean in terms of the lab.

[Israel]

Yeah,

[Agent Davis]

it has not everything has not gone to finished up at DNA yet. So it's possible there were still. There were some, some areas that did test positive for blood. Just when they do like a person called a presumptive test when the people that were searching it. So those things went into the lab and some of those things were like the screws from holding the carpeting in and that kind of thing. Those have not come back yet from DNA. The little, there were some little fragments that they thought might have been bone fragment was not bone. Did not test positive for bone. That one's come back. Yeah, they didn't want any. We didn't ask what it was, but it was with bone. For some hair that is not yours. But the way they figure out hair.

[Israel]

I was, I was mostly curious if they found any blood.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, there was.

[Israel]

I wasn't sure how long because it's been sitting there in the rain for so long. I was curious if there was. I mean, I know there was when I parked it.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah, there was. I don't. We haven't heard anything back about it. And then they, they need something to compare it with.

[Agent Johnson]

Right. So there's no knife.

[Agent Davis]

No night. There was no knife at the boat.

[Israel]

It may have been. I don't know what happened to that night.

[Agent Johnson]

It was a Tonto.

[Israel]

Cold steel tont.

[Agent Davis]

How big?

[Israel]

It had a. It was a four, four and a half inch folding blade and I think I bought it at Walmart.

[Agent Davis]

Do you remember what color?

[Israel]

It looks very similar to the one that I had on me when I was arrested. Just a different blade style, same accompanying and everything.

[Agent Frank]

So if I'm correct about that, that

[Israel]

was the murder weapon, the one of Washington murders. Well, it was involved.

[Agent Johnson]

It was involved. I think we talked about before when we were asking about federal jurisdiction about guns. Yeah. Were they. Were any. Were either of those victims shot? No, no striking.

[Israel]

We'll get the whole story eventually.

[Agent Johnson]

We're just gonna get part so that we can move.

[Israel]

No, the only person I ever shot was Bill Courier.

[Agent Johnson]

Everybody else's strength.

[Israel]

Or.

[Agent Smith]

I don't want to have the wrong

[Agent Johnson]

impression, you know, so everybody else's strength award. Was there something else,

[Israel]

One of the Washington things?

[Agent Johnson]

There was.

[Israel]

Doesn't matter. It's just. No, it wasn't. It wasn't strangled. I hit somebody in the head. So

[Agent Johnson]

did you mean to kill him or they died? Was there a struggle and you hit them and they died or what? Did you mean to kill him that way?

[Israel]

I wasn't trying to kill him. I just took him out of action.

[Agent Frank]

I think we read that in one of those letters with the male female comfort.

[Israel]

No, I saw that Rich mentioned that they gave you all that stuff. I should have asked him to give me copies.

[Agent Johnson]

So I know which ones you have.

[Agent Smith]

We could go over that together and

[Agent Johnson]

you could feel any way

[Agent Smith]

at some point in time.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, we know in Washington.

[Israel]

I didn't realize they were allowed to take stuff out of my cell though.

[Commercial Voice]

I wasn't.

[Israel]

Mainly I was pretty.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, we know that there was a couple in Washington state, a female couple. We read that in the bill. Are those the same couple from the. That you took to the boat and jumped in the lake or they rob.

[Israel]

They went in that hole.

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah, That was a while. That was a long time ago. Right after the military. Is that right after the military? You told right after the military.

[Israel]

Military.

[Agent Johnson]

After you got out of the military. It was before I got the boat. And you told us one time that, you know, it wasn't long when you got out of the military that you killed somebody and it was that sort of feeling that you needed to do something that was hard to resist. Yeah. New Bay Is boarding town.

[Agent Smith]

Is it fair to say that we're looking at a lot around. More around the Washington area than. No, Just the two in Washington?

[Agent Johnson]

No, there's a. There's a couple. There's a couple in Washington and then the two.

[Agent Smith]

Is that right?

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Johnson]

So if we can't find this knife, unfortunately that doesn't give us much to go on.

[Israel]

We took.

[Agent Smith]

I know we had some knives. I don't know what all we have. Is it possible it was at Kimberly's?

[Agent Frank]

I don't think so.

[Israel]

I haven't seen it for several years.

[Agent Frank]

Could be in a different Washington cache.

[Israel]

No,

[Commercial Voice 2]

No,

[Agent Smith]

The couple of husband and wife. Do you know.

[Israel]

I'm not going to talk about this.

[Agent Johnson]

What about other caches? Like another cache?

[Israel]

It. Well, the other caches aren't related to any. I mean that one in New York was the only one directly related to the murderous part. The guns. Some of the guns were stuff.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, that would give us something to go on. If there was a cache that they could go and retrieve, That would keep. I think that would keep the FBI busy. Yeah.

[Israel]

I'll have to think about which ones I'm willing to part with.

[Agent Johnson]

If you thought it all still belongs to me. Have a candy bar.

[Agent Smith]

If you thought one that you wanted to give up, that maybe we might be able to work something out with a. Our videos.

[Agent Davis]

Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.

[Israel]

Well, that's another issue. Is there the other time I can't find just the satellite map, so.

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah, well, if you gave them a general area, they could probably get somebody.

[Agent Smith]

We just have to have enough information to get a hold of, you know, tech person that covers that area.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Frank]

So again, you know, via cash. It's not related to anything. So you're really not giving up any of your cards to trade with.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, that's the issue.

[Israel]

They're all related to stuff. They're just. Yeah, I just have to have to think about it. Well, they want to try and remember what's in.

[Agent Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. But it's sort of interesting for you too. You'll get to see what's in there and you'll get to see him again.

[Israel]

Yeah, one of those oh shit moments. You dig it up and I see what's in there.

[Agent Johnson]

Israel, there's been too many.

[Agent Smith]

Oh yeah, well, I've had enough.

[Israel]

I've had my share for the year.

[Agent Johnson]

This is just the way. Well, why don't you.

[Announcer]

Why don't you?

[Agent Johnson]

If you were able to do that. I think that's going to buy us and Give everybody something to do. And people like to have something to do. They can be digging up a cache and then you'll get to see how the video works and you'll get to see what's in there.

[Israel]

How long does a body last in freshwater lake because there's no critters that eat.

[Agent Davis]

It depends. It depends how, right.

[Israel]

Deep.

[Agent Johnson]

I learned a lot because it depends on deep.

[Agent Smith]

The temperature of the water.

[Agent Davis]

And if the body's contained in something

[Agent Smith]

and it's not critters, it can be like bacteria, organisms.

[Agent Davis]

They were talking if the water is

[Israel]

below say 45 degrees all the time.

[Agent Smith]

I think you said they up to 80ft at one point in time.

[Israel]

You told us. No, there's one that's even a lot

[Agent Johnson]

deeper than that, like 200ft.

[Agent Smith]

So we should like get a submarine or deeper.

[Agent Johnson]

Deeper than 200ft.

[Israel]

You guys know about Lake Crescent in Washington?

[Agent Johnson]

How deep is it?

[Israel]

I think that lake is 5 to 700ft deep. They've never been to the bottom of it. There's people who have gone off that lake. They still haven't their cars or anything.

[Agent Johnson]

And that's the lake.

[Agent Smith]

That's one of the ways.

[Agent Johnson]

So this is really deep. So this ain't never going to be able to recover.

[Agent Smith]

Well, instead we're 300ft.

[Israel]

That's the deepest part. But I'm saying I don't know how deep it was. I know the general area. I had a fish finder but it

[Agent Johnson]

didn't register how deep it was. I just felt like it was over

[Agent Smith]

maxed out at 100ft.

[Agent Johnson]

Oh, is that your fish finder? Goes to wonder.

[Israel]

I think.

[Commercial Voice 2]

I don't remember.

[Israel]

I just know if you've been to the lake you would see what I'm talking about drops down like a V. So.

[Agent Johnson]

But you didn't go to the 500 foot place as far as.

[Israel]

No, I wasn't. I was in a. I was near the edge. But you know, 30ft out from the bank on that lake it goes. It drops down to 50, 60ft already.

[Agent Johnson]

And I was.

[Agent Davis]

Anyway, the lab was talking about a case recently actually where they recovered a car that had been submerged in water. I don't know how deep it was even in, but it was, it was a relatively cold lake and because it had been submerged and water still got in, but critters and other things were able to get in the car that was in the 40s, in the 1940s and part of the body was still intact because the person was protected by the car. So there's A lot of factors that go into it, but there will definitely. Even if there isn't skin or things like that, long bones will be. Can be recovered.

[Israel]

Yeah, I know they tend to move

[Agent Davis]

around, but if there's other. If there's other specifics in terms of things that you know, of depths and temperatures and that kind of stuff, you can certainly make some phone calls and find out what.

[Israel]

Well, I figured you would have guessed that was pretty obvious. But I was. I always have been curious as to

[Agent Johnson]

what it looked like.

[Israel]

I would think as deep as that lake is, it's probably sitting there just exactly as it was when it first touched town.

[Agent Johnson]

It could be.

[Israel]

I know most freshwater lakes that eat. There aren't that many fish that go to lactate,

[Agent Smith]

but that one's not in anything. It's just ropes or something holding it.

[Agent Johnson]

Is that the milk shots?

[Israel]

Well, that's what the weights were.

[Agent Johnson]

Milk jugs. How many milk jugs?

[Israel]

Are they gonna move around?

[Agent Johnson]

No, how many milk jugs?

[Israel]

At least four or five, I would

[Agent Johnson]

think, just for one body. What about a cache that they can work on for next week?

[Israel]

Well, the easiest would be Washington, so I don't know my way around there a little better,

[Agent Frank]

but I have to.

[Agent Smith]

Trying to remember what's in it.

[Agent Johnson]

Do you want them to line. Do you want them to line it up? That's the thing. It can't be. We can't make the decision that day because they won't have time to. Yeah, they won't have time to line it up.

[Israel]

You think about it over like.

[Agent Smith]

Yeah, but you think about it over the weekend or something.

[Israel]

Yeah,

[Agent Frank]

and if there's anything you want,

[Israel]

like, it'll give me like an hour on the Internet maybe. Before. Before we do this.

[Agent Johnson]

You want an hour on the Internet?

[Israel]

Do a little research.

[Agent Johnson]

I've been.

[Israel]

I've been. I've been an info blackout for too long.

[Agent Frank]

I think that's, you know, you can think about that. If there's anything you want short term in terms of.

[Israel]

I was joking. I wouldn't do that anyway.

[Agent Frank]

No, I'm not talk about the Internet. I'm talking about like. Yeah, if you want some sort of. All right, I'm gonna do this.

[Agent Smith]

But you wouldn't do that on the Internet. If we set a computer down here,

[Israel]

just gonna go right. Sue everywhere I went.

[Agent Johnson]

Wouldn't do that to you.

[Agent Frank]

But yeah, know, anything, you know, to kind of satisfy any short term goals you have, even if it's just food or coffee or, you know, whatever. Obviously a coffee anyway.

[Israel]

But

[Agent Frank]

again, it's sort of a situation where I think you're not giving up anything, just giving us help with whoever we need to persuade.

[Israel]

Right. I can see your. I see your point of view, I do on this, but at the same time I have my own frustrations right

[Agent Johnson]

now as well, so.

[Agent Smith]

But even like this is productive, this will be viewed as productive, you know, I mean you said you came over, we got stuff and so it's only

[Israel]

productive from a non prosecuting attorney.

[Agent Smith]

It's productive.

[Israel]

Elvis, you already got me on enough stuff.

[Agent Johnson]

It's okay. You know, I'm getting out on mail anytime you think that I'm not working trying to work with you. I am, but from my perspective, you know, Israel said he's going to do a lot of things in a short time frame and we've been sitting here.

[Agent Smith]

Yeah.

[Agent Johnson]

Collecting the months away and believe me,

[Israel]

I'm aware of the months clicking.

[Agent Smith]

I'm just.

[Israel]

Having an appreciation for things being done

[Agent Johnson]

at a different speed, that's all.

[Agent Davis]

So let me just make sure I'm clear on the cash. Do you have a general area now that you can give us or do you want to think about it?

[Israel]

Washington. Right.

[Agent Davis]

But I mean even there's the two district state we have. We have offices in a bunch of places so we have to figure out which office we're working with.

[Agent Smith]

Within 50 or 100 miles of.

[Agent Davis]

Is there anything close to Neabay or area.

[Israel]

Yeah, not near NE Bay, but in that area.

[Agent Davis]

That area. Okay.

[Agent Johnson]

Outside of Seattle. Between Seattle and. Yeah, right.

[Agent Frank]

You already met those agents already, so it's not like I'm bringing.

[Agent Davis]

There's more pictures from this too. I didn't grab them all. I can print them all out and have them for you next time. I know there were a couple,

[Israel]

A

[Agent Davis]

lot of gun parts and pieces, but I don't. Okay, I can. Okay. So do you want me to try to set that up for next week? I don't know. I'm obviously not going to know what day until Port angel is there somewhere?

[Agent Johnson]

Port Angel? Yeah, I don't.

[Israel]

Don't set up a time yet. I gotta try and remember.

[Agent Johnson]

Once you get the computer, you can look right now if you want.

[Agent Smith]

Is that gonna help an area?

[Israel]

Google.

[Agent Johnson]

You can look at Google right now if you want.

[Agent Smith]

You know the area.

[Israel]

I'm trying to remember in it.

[Agent Johnson]

He's trying to remember what he has in it.

[Israel]

That's probably not.

[Agent Frank]

We can tie that together. We just can open it upon his bolts.

[Israel]

It's not that impressive. I'm more concerned about the little stuff that might be in it. Well, well, well. Things you never thought you'd be talking about. And then. On the Tupper Lake thing, you had agents up there with the cameras, but you just wanted to talk about the bank robbery, or were you. Well, we.

[Agent Smith]

What we had set up was we just had them at the bank robbery parking lot to show you the live feed that we could do.

[Agent Davis]

We can talk about whatever you want to talk about.

[Agent Smith]

We didn't have any expectations, but we thought the natural progression because of what we've been talking would be in that general area. So we wanted to get things moving there.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Smith]

You know, and if you wanted to just, like, pull out of the parking lot and then take us to the riverbend, that would all depend.

[Israel]

Yeah, I was just.

[Agent Frank]

You would be driving.

[Agent Smith]

Yeah, it would be like you'd be driving, so. Because we thought maybe that's how it's going to have to be eventually, maybe is that you might have to be in the driver's seat, so to speak, to see, you know, landmarks or whatever you need to see.

[Israel]

Yeah,

[Agent Frank]

It's almost as good as being out.

[Agent Smith]

I like to tell you we were going to drive you to the dig site. We were going to show you what we were doing. But.

[Israel]

I'm having a harder time remembering roads than Port Angeles when I wasn't. I'm sure I can figure it out.

[Agent Smith]

All right, well, so we won't set it up.

[Israel]

We'll just.

[Agent Davis]

We'll get them working on it, though,

[Agent Smith]

because get that tech.

[Agent Davis]

Yeah. Geeky guy has stuff. Get the camera and get everything all kind of set up.

[Israel]

Right.

[Agent Davis]

So we will get that moving and then we can touch basically the beginning of next week

[Israel]

and

[Agent Davis]

have a better idea of what your schedule is going to be like and figure out when everything. And I'll know at that point what their schedule is going to be and maybe figure out some time before work.

[Israel]

Yeah, we might be. We might be able to have another meeting next week anyway. Apparently that was the issue tonight.

[Agent Davis]

All right, what we may do then. Jeff and I may come by the jail and just figure out that piece that we were just talking about, about the timing and then we can. And go from there.

[Israel]

Yeah.

[Agent Frank]

In the meantime, I'm supposed to talk to them tomorrow and I'll just tell

[Israel]

them that, you know,

[Agent Frank]

clues and use

[Agent Johnson]

that to our advantage.

[Israel]

Yeah, I don't really understand how old remarks are.

[Agent Frank]

See, it's frustrating at perspectives.

[Israel]

I mean, hypothetically, if they charge me federally, would you indict? Would they indict Me up here where they, I just don't understand, considering everything else that's going on, why they would.

[Agent Johnson]

Or how.

[Israel]

I guess not why, but how it would work. I don't like the logistics of it.

[Agent Johnson]

Well, like I said, they want, they want to be able to miss out that, that crime.

[Israel]

Right. They want to, they want to put my name on it. I understand that it's not going to be officially solved, so.

[Agent Johnson]

Exactly. I know, but you know, they want

[Israel]

to be able to put your name to it.

[Agent Johnson]

Right. And then the question is how that works. Do they want to file the charges there? And you know, that's what we're doing.

[Agent Frank]

And it's a lot easier for them just to stomach it if they, you know, their forbearance is giving rise to clues to other murders, you know, whatever those clues might be. I think that is able to accomplish our goal.

[Israel]

I understand their perspective.

[Agent Frank]

Yes.

[Israel]

From my perspective though, even if they were to officially charge me at this point, it's not

[Agent Johnson]

like it would be

[Israel]

real breaking news anyway.

[Agent Frank]

I think, you know, in some ways it would be because no law enforcement person has ever confirmed that. Right.

[Israel]

So it would just be confirmation of everyone's current speculation.

[Agent Frank]

Exactly.

[Israel]

So I, I, I don't, I'm not interested in it from that point. I was just interested in it from a logistics point like where do they have to fly me to Vermont if

[Agent Johnson]

they're going to charge me or Those

[Agent Frank]

are some of the questions, but not to get there.

[Agent Smith]

Is it warmer in the morning?

[Agent Frank]

We talked to them Monday and it just snowed.

[Agent Smith]

They told us they got more snow than us then. Yeah,

[Israel]

Got a quota for last year.

[Agent Frank]

Any other questions?

[Agent Smith]

You gotta take a leak or anything

[Agent Johnson]

before we take on that?

[Agent Smith]

You're not gonna eat this?

[Israel]

No, I'm good. Thank you. It.

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