← True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation
True Crime Bullsh**: The Israel Keyes Investigation
True Crime Conversations: Eric Carter-Landin, Patrick Hinds, Josh Hallmark
00:48:09
For the month of December, True Crime creators are getting together for conversations about podcasting, true crime, and the nexus between the two. We’ll discuss creating our shows, behind-the-scenes moments, fears and hopes, the cases that have...
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- [00:00]
Bowen Yang
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
- [00:02]
Matt Rogers
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- [00:38]
Josh Hallmark
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Patrick Hines
I was attacked by a shark.
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Josh Hallmark
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Patrick Hines
The.
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Wrap up something they'll love.
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- [01:42]
Josh Hallmark
Lowe's we help you save. So for December, a bunch of podcasters are getting together and having what we're calling true crime conversations. And I am here today with Eric Carter Landin from Advocacy Con and True Consequences and Patrick Hines from True Crime Obsessed. Hey guys.
- [02:07]
Patrick Hines
Hi.
- [02:09]
Josh Hallmark
And I am Josh Hallmark from True Crime Bullshit and Unsafe Spaces. So before we kick off, because I'm sure there are people who are listening to this who have not met all of us, why don't you share your origin stories? Why don't we start with Eric?
- [02:24]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah, well, mine is a bummer, so it's good to get that out of the way right away. My brother was murdered 39 years ago and I've been fighting for justice for him ever since. And so everything I do, everything I have done has been in honor of him and in memory of him. So I started true consequences in 2019. It's been a very long time since my listeners have heard from me. This will actually be the first episode in a long time. So I'm excited to Reintroduce myself to everybody. But from there, I started a nonprofit called Angels Voices Silence no More. We help families of the missing and murdered through grants to help them fund their advocacy efforts. And then I also founded Advocacy Con with a couple of really amazing advocate friends of mine, Whitney and Melissa. And. Yeah, so that's my really fast, really long winded journey through true crime and into the world of advocacy.
- [03:19]
Josh Hallmark
And, Patrick, what about you?
- [03:21]
Patrick Hines
Hi. Well, for me, you know, I fell in love with podcasting as a consumer, you know, like, in the 2010s, and wanted to make a podcast just as, like, a creative outlet. So I started making theater podcasts back in, like, 2014, 2015. Met the incredible Gillian Pennsavalli, who was making another. Another theater podcast. And we became fast friends. And, you know, we both wanted to. We had been talking about making a true crime podcast, and sort of long story short, we sort of had a different idea for the show than we make True Crime Obsessed. We covered true crime documentaries. And I wanted to make something really nerdy. I wanted to do something that was very, like, NPR style. Three segments, like a news segment and like, a segment where we talked about something that we had watched or listened to, and then an interview segment in the end, and in the middle part, we. We were sort of recapping the documentary, the Imposter. And when I went to edit the episode, I was like, wow, this is, like, really different, you know, than anything that's sort of out there. And I, like, loved the tone. And I went to Gillian and I was like, I think this is the show. And she's like, yeah, that's. She was like, whatever you want to do. Like that. Great, let's do that. And we started True crime obsessed in 2017, and we have been going strong since.
- [04:40]
Josh Hallmark
Understatement of the day. I'm Josh Hallmark. I was living in a van, traveling the country with my partner in 2015, and got sick of music really quickly and started listening to podcasts. And as a writer, I was writing a book at the time. I fell in love with it as a medium and as someone who has a very fluid relationship with the term finished, I was like, this seems like more my style than writing a book, because I know if I write a book, it'll never be done because it'll never be perfect enough. And with podcasting, it has to be done because you're putting it out into the world and then getting, like, immediate response.
- [05:22]
Patrick Hines
And it's never perfect.
- [05:23]
Josh Hallmark
And it's never perfect. So I started podcasting about small town America, which was kind of what my book was loosely about, and I fucking loved it. But it wasn't picking up steam. We had just moved to New York. I was trying to make podcasting a career, and I knew that true crime was like the best way to make it a career. And I had this fascination with the Israel Keys case, and I was shocked that no one had covered it yet, let alone done a deep dive. And so I was like, well, I've listened to Serial. I can do this. And now it's been almost a decade of doing the same long form podcast. And then, yeah, I've started branching out a couple years ago doing other projects. None of them have been, like, as commercially successful as true Crime bullshit. So it's kind of like my golden handcuffs. But it's also like, even if true crime bullshit no longer exists, I will still be investigating Keys probably for the rest of my life.
- [06:23]
Patrick Hines
That is so fascinating. And I love that, like, you and I have had conversations where it's like, I can't stop making it because people keep demanding it. So, like, sor washing. We just need more.
- [06:33]
Josh Hallmark
It's like I feel like I'm living in, like a machine over here where people. People can't get it fast enough. The episodes are too short and I'm like, I like, you have to understand every five minutes you listen to is like two hours of my life.
- [06:48]
Patrick Hines
Yes. Yep. Well, this is so amazing. I'm so excited to be doing this. I like it. To point to one other time. Three gay men have been in a podcast episode talking about advocacy and true crime. And this is as soon as. Josh, when you propose this and thank for that, that's, you know, community building, I think, is everything. So thank you for taking the charge, but this is. I was like, where's our true crime gays podcast? We need this true.
- [07:13]
Josh Hallmark
The real gays crime.
- [07:15]
Patrick Hines
Exactly.
- [07:18]
Josh Hallmark
Well, so I kind of wanted to talk to you, Eric. I think so. For me, being in production is incredibly stressful because you're like, it has to be perfect. People are going to criticize me no matter what I do. And once you start production, you're like, oh, this is my life now. Like, I go on hiatuses between seasons and I'm always terrified to start the first episode because once you start it, you're like, I'm on the bus and I can't get off now. So, Eric, you're straddling all of that with also just your own experience of, like, being an advocate, having not only reported on true Crime but being a part of true crime because of your brother's murder, what's it like navigating the stress of each of those?
- [08:00]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah, it's really tough. I have to work really hard to take care of myself just with the advocacy work alone, like working on my brother's case, it takes a lot out of me. And that's frankly why I haven't produced an episode in a long time. Because the pressure of that on top of everything else that is going on is really hard to balance. So I definitely feel you, Josh, and I definitely feel like when you're doing the research and you're. You're doing it the way that you're doing it, it takes a lot. So I think it's all about. And this is so cliche, and I'm sorry to say it, and I'm going to sound really gay saying this, but it's all about self care. It's all about self care, right? Like, you have to rest and you have to take time to cleanse your brain from all of this, like, dark and heavy stuff that we talk about. And so I've spent a year and a half doing that, and while also trying to help other people so that it kind of takes that heaviness and it moves it in, like, into something positive. I don't know if I answered your question or if I just got really, really gay.
- [09:07]
Josh Hallmark
Two things can be true at the same time. It's so funny because it is so heavy. And I always wish I could infuse more levity into that, but that's also really tricky, too. How have you navigated doing a comedy true crime podcast, Patrick?
- [09:24]
Patrick Hines
You know, it's so interesting that question, because we, you know, we no longer call it a true crime comedy podcast because I think we. We never. Jillian and I never really thought of ourselves as funny people. I think that we think, like, our friends think we're funny, but we never. We're not like, comedians or anything like that, you know, and when we started True crime obsessed, you know, 2017 was the era of, like, my favorite murder, you know, and. And that was kind of the thing was, like, not, certainly, certainly not laughing at true crime or laughing at the content, but just sort of being silly in. In the way that we tell the stories or at least allowing for silliness to be a part of it. And for Gillian and I, you know, that happened naturally. And when we would try to explain ourselves about, like, what we meant by saying that we were a true crime comedy podcast, we would always say what we're when we're laughing, we're laughing at, you know, how angry we're getting about this, or we're laughing at, like, how dumb the idiot prosecutor was, or it's really just us sort of like laughing through our rage at how common this is, how, how badly it can go. But also, like, part of our commentary is also on the, the documentary itself. And like, they can be horrendously made, you know, so that was what we were always sort of like, laughing. That was the comedy part. And I think, as you know, we were always really wanted to be more involved with the True Crime community and the True crime podcasting community. And as we were really, like, meeting people and, and getting feedback, we. We really decided that we needed to take the word comedy out of our, out of sort of what we said that we were doing, because not only was it not accurate in the sense that, like, we're not making jokes, you know, we're trying to find levity where we can. It was, I. I don't know, we felt it was kind of disrespectful. It was disingenuous to what we were actually trying to do. And so, you know, Jillian and I, for being the people who we are, we always allow for lightness. We want the conversation to be authentic. We want to, like, bring the people that we are into talking about these cases. And so there is humor there, you know, and some of the, some of the feedback that we would get from people would be like, you know, some of the levity makes it a little bit easier to listen or to learn about these cases. And so we also thought that that was important that, you know, if the mission is to keep telling the stories and to keep getting the stories out there, if we're providing an alternate way for people to sort of digest this information, we thought that was valuable too. But we were always. So the most important thing to us was to honor the victims of the storytelling, you know, and that was why we, that was really why we got into why we were drawn to True Crime. Because we, we wanted to talk about these cases. We wanted to engage in the big feelings people have when, you know, when, when discussing these, which is why we never wanted to do a straight forward. Here's what happened. It was always a commentary podcast because we wanted to be able to, like, investigate how we felt about these things. So that's another long winded, very gay answer. So I feel like I'm in good company.
- [12:29]
Josh Hallmark
I feel like we're going to be full of those. I know, know who doesn't get enough credit because it's such a hard line to toe is wine and crime. Like, they do such a job of, like, being advocates, being hilarious without ever, like, making the hilarity at the expense of the victims or their families. And I think that is so hard and takes so much mental space to create a show like that. And I don't think people really consider how much work they put into being funny and respectful at the same time.
- [13:00]
Patrick Hines
They're also just so damn smart. I've been on their show a couple of times, and every time I do it, I'm like, I'm not ready. I'm not, like, they're so smart that I'm like, I can't. I can't keep up with this. It's the. The level of intelligence is so high.
- [13:15]
Josh Hallmark
Oh, yeah. I mean, like, you have to be smart to be that successful doing a comedy true crime show.
- [13:20]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. And they're also just, like, so normal. You know what I mean? Like, I just love them so much. They're just, like, so down to earth, normal gals. They're just. They're the best with their Minnesotan accents.
- [13:31]
Eric Carter Landin
I. And not to turn this into, like, a fangirl moment of them, but they really do, like, beyond what they do on the show, they really reach out and help people in the community, people that need help, and, like, make Christmas happen for families that can't afford just amazing women. Amazing women.
- [13:47]
Patrick Hines
You know, I got to say, it's like, I think it's the responsibility of those of us who make podcasts like that to sort of, like, one of the things Jillian and I started doing years ago was we would do an episode, and then, you know, we would try to find somebody from the episode to do an interview with outside so that we could also get. Get a deeper perspective on their experience, not just of their story, but also, you know, making. Being in a documentary, being in a documentary about it. I think one of the turns that we're seeing in the industry that I think is so amazing is the. The. The need for, like, mental health services for people who participate in these kinds of documentaries. And, you know, I think we're starting to see, like, mental health professionals being on set to be available to the. You know, to people who participate. And it really is inspiring. There was definitely a. I was like, there's something about all of this that feels off, you know, And I think now we're starting to really understand and take care of the people who participate and tell their stories, which is crucial.
- [14:48]
Josh Hallmark
I Which I still need to edit. But like, six months ago for Patreon, I did an interview with Tara Newell about exactly that. Like, her experience of having her story turned into a podcast and then a docu series and then a almost satirical, like, drama series. And it's really heartbreaking to hear how used she was. I don't think she would use that terminology, but I certainly would, like, just used and abused by them and then kind of, like, set off on her own. And there was no real concern about how their storytelling of her story might traumatize her.
- [15:26]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, I mean, like, one of the shows that we cover is a Robin Roberts show from Lewis called Murder Has Two Faces.
- [15:34]
Josh Hallmark
Yes.
- [15:35]
Patrick Hines
And the way that Robin Roberts takes care with her guests, you know, the people that are there to tell the stories about their murdered loved ones, it is so strikingly different from the other things that we cover. That is always a major part of the conversation, you know, and it's, you know, the reminding of the interviewee that you're here to tell their story and honor them and share, you know, and it's. I can't think of her name, but Joey Buttafuko's daughter is now an advocate, and she's working with companies, like, with documentary companies and podcast companies to have mental health professionals on set to take care of the interviewees, which I just think is. Has been overlooked for far too long.
- [16:14]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah, I. It's. I struggle between wanting to be a, quote, unquote, real journalist, and also just being so concerned about the impact of my work where, like, there are people I want to call and should have called years ago, but I'm like, I don't want to traumatize them by calling.
- [16:30]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah.
- [16:30]
Josh Hallmark
And, like, if I had a true journalist, I'd be like, it. This is the story. But I just don't have that in me. And it takes sometimes years for me to, like, build up the confidence to reach out to someone, which is like.
- [16:42]
Patrick Hines
You'Re, like, the gentlest boy on earth. You know what I mean? Like, if anyone's gonna be interviewed by anybody, let it be you 100%.
- [16:49]
Josh Hallmark
But it is funny because I've become pretty good friends with Dr. Chris Kunkel, who's a forensic psychologist. And the one thing we talk about all the time is, like, to do this work and like him way more than us. But even in the worlds we're living in, like, you have to be able to laugh at some of this stuff, otherwise, like, you'll go fucking crazy. So I think that's the one thing people probably don't realize is like most of us are have really dark senses of humor and like while we are ethical and advocates or hopefully most of us and have the respect to do what we're doing, we also like like to get drunk and talk and make fun of things. How inhumanely dark all of this is because that's what gets us through.
- [17:32]
Patrick Hines
Like if I couldn't I barely drink. Joshi how dare you?
- [17:37]
Josh Hallmark
Same dare you. Yeah, I always feel funny when we're at like events and convent conventions and I'm like oh now people are gonna see like drunk Josh at 11pm at the bar.
- [17:51]
Eric Carter Landin
Drunk Josh is a fun Josh though, I can say. And drunk Eric is really inappropriate. So yeah, like hr stay away from me.
- [17:59]
Patrick Hines
I gotta hang out with drunk Josh and drunk Eric more. Come on.
- [18:02]
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- [20:27]
Josh Hallmark
Speaking of which, listener interactions have been, like, very formative for me in good ways and bad ways. Like, how has interfacing with listeners impacted your work?
- [20:39]
Eric Carter Landin
I guess I'll go first. So it's. It's amazing. I love. I love talking to my listeners. I've had some moments that have been shocking. One was, was this guy in Italy who sent me this, like, really long message, like, oh, you. I. I've heard about your story. Like, I'm so sorry what happened to your brother. And then, like, by the way, here's a picture of my dick. Yeah.
- [21:07]
Josh Hallmark
Not joking, funny. The first question that came to mind was inappropriate.
- [21:12]
Patrick Hines
That has never happened to me. That has ne. In all of the years and all of the social media that I do, that has never happened. I'm so sorry that that happened, Eric. That's. I mean, unless you were into it. That was all.
- [21:23]
Eric Carter Landin
Well, it was hilarious. I mean, like, at first I was like, wow. And, you know, I think you could get mad or you could laugh at it. And so I decided to laugh at it because it's just absolutely absurd that anybody would think in any kind of realm that that would be okay. But it's. It was still hilarious. And if it would have happened to somebody else, I probably would have also laughed about it. It's like I laughed about it at myself. I don't know. But for the most part, my listeners have been incredible, gracious, empathetic, loving, kind. And then we have a couple of random pervs and conspiracy nuts. But, you know, I'm sure Josh has lots of conspiracy nuts, too.
- [21:59]
Josh Hallmark
I feel like the grass is always greener because I was just in Palm Springs with a bunch of content creators, most of them women. And one of them was like, oh, I get dick pics all the time. And I was like, yeah, no one sends me dick pics. But then I also feel like I would be disgusted if someone did. I don't know. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
- [22:15]
Patrick Hines
You know, I will say it did happen to me once, now that I'm remembering it. It was a listener who I interacted with a bit on social media. I'm pretty active. I like to be in touch with people. And it was this guy and he sent me. It wasn't a dick pic, but it was a picture of him in his underwear. And I commented back, like, hey, not cool, please. But I was going to comment that back, but what I was trying to do was open the picture so I could take a screenshot of it. So I had it if I needed it for evidence or whatever. So I'm tapping on the picture and I tapped it too many times and it parted it so that I. So then I had to write it back and be like, not cool, man. And then I blocked him. I don't know.
- [22:59]
Eric Carter Landin
Not cool, heart react. Like, really not cool.
- [23:02]
Josh Hallmark
We've all been in relationships for over a decade, but, like, that's basically just a grinder. Hello.
- [23:08]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, I mean, well. And you know, yeah, I. I would say that I was probably more Prud. Things like that. Like back in the day, like, I'm not welcoming your dick pics, but, like, my DMs are open. You know what I mean? Same.
- [23:20]
Josh Hallmark
Same. Yeah, like, yeah, if you accidentally send me one, I'm probably not going to be upset about it.
- [23:25]
Patrick Hines
Exactly. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm acting a little bit more scandalized than I would probably actually be. But, like, my husband gets unsolicited dick pics all the time. And I, like, I never do. I never do.
- [23:37]
Eric Carter Landin
You send to me, all my friends are going to see it and they're going to laugh at it. So that's what's going to happen on my side of the world.
- [23:43]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, totally.
- [23:44]
Josh Hallmark
That's a weird thing with being gay. Like, I was bitching about this wasted in a hot tub the other night where I was like, everyone's always like, your boyfriend's so hot. Your boyfriend's so hot. And I'm like, what about me?
- [23:59]
Patrick Hines
Like, that is. That is rude. You know what I mean? That is rude. No, I. I mean, you guys know me. Like, I'm. I love, like, listener interactions. Like, you know, when I go on tour, I always say, like, doors open at 5:30 by me. Like, I open the doors. I'm the. Like, I'M there for the whole pre show, just walking around, meeting everybody, talking to everybody. I do the show, and then I stay after and talk to anybody who wants to stick around and hang out. Like, it is. It really is. My favorite part of this whole thing is, is meeting people. And, you know, and I was saying to somebody the other day, like, well, I'm always open to any feedback, positive or negative, as long as it is respectful, as long as it's meant to be a conversation, you know, as opposed to, like, people just being hateful, of which I've gotten plenty. But, you know, I'm always open to, like, learning a lesson. I'm always open. Like, I, you know, very early on in one of our Patreon episodes, I said something super ignorant about suicide, and we got. I got a lot of feedback about it. And I remember, like, getting onto the platform and being like, hey, I'm gonna, like, find a mental health professional and, like, sit down and do, like, a long call and get educated. And I did. And I, you know, and this woman was absolutely incredible. And her sister is Lizzy Kaplan from Mean Girls. I know. And she's a listener, and she's like, call me. I'm a. I'm a psychiatrist. I was like, great. And I did. And. And I got educated, you know, and so, like, I'm. And I, you know, and I actually was really grateful for it because I, you know, I've always said the only privilege I was born with was mental health privilege. I've never suffered from depression. I've never, you know, so. So that. That world is hard for me to understand sometimes. And so I was very glad to be educated in that space, and I learned better, and now we do better. So I'm always open to it. That's been. I think one of the reasons why TCO has been successful is because we are. We want to grow and change and evolve as humanity does, as true crime podcasting does. Like, we want to do better.
- [26:07]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah, I think that's such an important point because, like, I hear a lot that I'm not open to feedback, and I'm like, no, I am, as long as it's respectful. And, like, yeah, I want to have a conversation with you because I truly believe in the Dunning Kruger principle of, like, you don't know what you don't know. So it's like, yes, there might be, like, a hundred reasons why I made that decision. You don't like. And rather than attacking me for it, like, why don't we have a conversation about why I made that choice. Or like, like, why I didn't share this. Or, like, why I, you know, whatever. Like. And I just think if you want to have a meaningful conversation, you can't come in hot. You can't come in with, you know, criticizing someone. You can't come in with name calling it. You can't come in with, like, piety.
- [26:48]
Patrick Hines
Yeah. You know, and sometimes, like, when we get comments on our Patreon episodes, you know, where I'm trying to remember, we were covering the Amy Bradley documentary on Netflix, and I don't remember what we said that really upset people, but there was, like, a really strong reaction to it. And I was reading through the comments and some of them were just so nasty. And I was like. And I would look and be like, you guys have been. You. You've been a patreon member for 8 years. Like, you know me, you know, and. And like, I've probably met you in real life and maybe you read my book even, you know, and. But, like, a lot of that goes out the window. And then I have to remember that, like, as a gay man, there was one podcast in particular that I. That I used to listen to a lot. I won't name it here, but I felt like I knew these people and. But I would always listen with a. There was a bunch of straight people and I would listen with a critical ear because, you know, even well meaning, you know, allies can say ignorant things sometimes. Remember one time they said something that I thought was ignorant and I, I mean, I. I lit up and then, you know, and they responded and we worked it out and whatever, and. But, like, now I have to remind myself that, like, I did that too. I've been listening to that podcast for years. I felt like I knew them. And I still. Sometimes people feel more. Almost like sometimes people who have been listening the longest feel like the most aggrieved when you do something that bothers them. And I have to put myself in a mindset of being able to understand that they feel like we're friends and they feel like they're owed something for their loyalty, and they are. But kindness goes a long way. That's all.
- [28:20]
Josh Hallmark
Well, I think also that's the thing that's made. Criticism never gets. It gets easier, but it never, like, doesn't hurt as much.
- [28:29]
Patrick Hines
And I always, oh, really, Josh? Tell me more.
- [28:32]
Josh Hallmark
I always remind myself, like, these are in many ways parasocial relationships. And like, they think they know you. They think that you have a shorthand that doesn't exist, or they feel that way, I don't want to say think, because that, I think, is, like, insulting. And also, in a lot of cases, they're projecting their shit onto you because they don't actually know who you are. I've read things, not so much about you, Eric, but about me and Patrick online that are just not true. And I'm like, but you don't know this person who you're talking about. And I do. And it's just wild. I just listened to Beth's Dead. Have either of you listened to this?
- [29:15]
Eric Carter Landin
No.
- [29:16]
Josh Hallmark
It's an incredible true crime adjacent podcast about podcasters who like, like, are dealing with a parasocial situation over the course of, like, years of this listener of theirs who's like, texting very personal or emailing very personal things. And it starts off as like, oh, we're like a new up and coming show and we want to, like, talk to everyone who's listening. And like, over the course of time, it gets, like, quite dangerous. And it's so weird to think, like, I'm here in my office all by myself, like, telling a story, and it's reaching a hundred thousand people, and they are all having wildly different experiences of which I am a part of. It's so bizarre.
- [29:53]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, I mean, you know, for me, like, I. How do I say this? Like, even, like, saying, like, it's a parasocial relationship to me makes it. Makes it feel like I think I'm fancier than I am. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not a famous person, you know, I'm just a guy who makes a podcast some people listen to, and I really do want to meet everybody. I love the idea that, like, this all brings, you know, that. That this brings some people together, you know? You guys know, like, I'm a big promoter, proponent of community. I love people gathering in one place. Like, that's my favorite thing to do. It's. It's a tough thing to navigate because I'm just like them, you know? Like, I am just like them. They think I'm just like them. And I am, you know, But I.
- [30:34]
Josh Hallmark
Think, like, it's important to note parasocial goes both ways. Like, I have parasocial relationships with listeners and other podcasts.
- [30:41]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. And so it is a thing where, like, you. You want to connect, you know, but you just want everyone to. We just all want everyone. They want me to behave respectfully. I want them to behave respectfully and, and kindly and, you know, and. But then at the same time, like, that kind of understanding. Like, it doesn't translate. My husband doesn't understand why I want to, like, stay after the show and talk for another two hours, you know, And I'm just, like, I'm fed by it, you know? Like, I love meeting people and exchanging ideas, and, you know, I'll say, you.
- [31:15]
Josh Hallmark
Amanda, and Charlie, I've never seen anything like it. You guys go out and immerse yourselves in ways that, like, as an introvert, like, I need to have, like, a gallon of wine to do. But, like, you are, like. Like, I. At a event we were at together, like, you would show up early. You would stay.
- [31:33]
Patrick Hines
You can say it, Joshi. You can say it.
- [31:35]
Josh Hallmark
At Obsess Fest, you were, like, at the bar. Anytime you had downtime or free time, you were at the bar talking to people. It was so important to you to engage with listeners in a way I just have so much respect for. And, like, I do it on the Trova trips. But I think because you're just, like, running on adrenaline and it's like, a compressed amount of time. But you, Charlie, and Amanda, like, really make sure to take care of all your listeners in a way that I am so humbled by.
- [32:00]
Patrick Hines
Wait, can I ask you about. I'm doing a trip to Greece this summer, and I'm very excited. Are they fun? Are we gonna have a good time?
- [32:06]
Josh Hallmark
Yes, I. So I've done two. The third ones coming up. I. A lot of people have this misconception that they're, like, murder trips. Like, we're not even talking about Israel Keys. Really? Like, I will, like, benchmark an hour to talk about the podcast.
- [32:20]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:21]
Josh Hallmark
And the rest. Like, I've made lifelong friends with people who've been on these trips with me.
- [32:24]
Patrick Hines
That's what I'm talking about. I cannot. I'm so excited. I cannot wait to go to Greece this summer.
- [32:29]
Josh Hallmark
Eric, I feel like because of the nature of you reporting on your own brother, you probably have a lot of similar, like, people with, like, very strong emotional connections to you. Like, what. What is that? Like? Because for Patrick and I, like, we've been talking about, like, the one thing that makes it okay is it's not personal, but for you, it is personal.
- [32:50]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah. I think there's so many sides to that part of it. Like, there's the Internet troll that's going to come in and say something really awful to you. Like, one of the worst ones was he just wants to get rich off his dumb, dead brother. So you get that. But you also get people that are super invested in the case and like feel like they are in on what's going on behind the scenes. And they are to a certain extent. But there's a lot that's held back. And so you get a lot of helpful, you know, advice and people trying to, you know, offer to assist. It's. That's been amazing just to get people talking about Jacob. It doesn't matter to me like if it's an Internet troll or if it's somebody that's highly invested or, you know, any of those things. The fact that people are even thinking about Jacob is amazing because when he died, there was no story, there was no news, there was no newspaper, there was nothing. So the fact that he gets to continue, you know, beyond anything that happened to him and really become the face of this movement to change things for families of the missing and murdered is, is really awesome. But you know, I, I appreciate every listener and every person that's shared Jacob's story, that signed the petition that's, that's done anything. Even the ones that don't like me, Even the ones that talk shit about me, like that's fine.
- [34:17]
Patrick Hines
Who doesn't like you? I'm in love with you and I've known you for 35 minutes. That's insane. What's wrong with everybody?
- [34:25]
Eric Carter Landin
I don't know. I mean, I'm not the easiest person to get along with sometimes maybe. What?
- [34:31]
Patrick Hines
That makes no sense to me.
- [34:33]
Josh Hallmark
I mean, I think much like me, when you put a little booze in Eric, we become like bitchy mean gays.
- [34:40]
Patrick Hines
My favorite kind of guys.
- [34:42]
Josh Hallmark
I know they're the best.
- [34:44]
Bowen Yang
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
- [34:46]
Matt Rogers
From Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
- [34:50]
Bowen Yang
JBL wireless earbuds are for those who are the first to try something unique.
- [34:54]
Matt Rogers
The first wireless earbuds on the market with a touchscreen case which allows you to control your audio without reaching for your phone. They also have a touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control.
- [35:04]
Bowen Yang
I love being able to touch my buds and control the volume With a.
- [35:08]
Matt Rogers
Built in wireless transmitter that lets you plug and play with any device you want. JBL wireless earbuds connects you to all your favorite music, movies and games.
- [35:17]
Bowen Yang
The wireless transmitter also allows allows for JBL superior spatial sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience.
- [35:25]
Matt Rogers
They've got a next gen smart charging case for a seamless listening experience. Leave your phone in your pocket. The smart charging case has all the features you need to fully control and customize your listening experience and the earbud settings in multiple languages right from the case.
- [35:39]
Bowen Yang
Use the smart charging case to see what song is playing or who's calling you. Or personalize the tactile screen with your your favorite photo.
- [35:45]
Matt Rogers
Check the dynamic lock screen to get info on battery life, status, time, messages, etc.
- [35:51]
Bowen Yang
JBL Wireless Earbuds grab a pair@jbl.com when.
- [35:55]
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- [37:10]
Josh Hallmark
You've, I think, done a lot of work to move that case forward. Can you tell other people about that? I know all about it. But tell the listeners you know how your podcast has made change in Jacob's case.
- [37:24]
Patrick Hines
I don't know about the case. Will you. Can I Will you tell me a little bit about it? Actually tell me and tell the true crime obsessed listeners about it and we'll all go listen to your podcast.
- [37:33]
Eric Carter Landin
It is really hard to hear, so I'm going to try to keep it. Not as heavy as it as it is, but Jacob was a baby when he was killed. He was only nine months old. The only person in the room with him when he he suffered blunt force head trauma was my mom's boyfriend at the time. A man who confessed twice to killing Jacob but was not prosecuted, was never charged and failed a polygraph failed two very important questions like did you strike Jacob intentionally in the head area? And did you hit Jacob? I know that those aren't really admissible or anything, but I think when you look at everything together, it's pretty compelling. So there's a problem because in New Mexico, for first degree murder, you have to truly prove intent. And it's really hard. It's really hard to prove that. So the only charge they could do would be second degree murder. And then they were probably going to go negligently caused because it would be easier. But because of that, because that's how they classified it, the DA classified it that way. There was a second degree murder statute of limitations in New Mexico back then. And so that had lapsed, and my mom and I had given up hope. We. We still kept trying. Every time there was a new da every time we went to state police, asked them to use their cold case homicide unit to investigate it. The podcast, I didn't really start it to tell Jacob's story. I was just trying to help other people, like my family, be able to get their stories out there. Eventually, when I learned that the statute of limitations had been overturned, my mom and I decided to talk about the case. And that was the first time we had ever talked about it together in 30 something years. And the audio quality is awful, so I'll apologize in advance if you listen to it. We were in my mom's mobile home and she kept moving her legs, and so the mic stand was going everywhere, and I'm like, mom, stop moving. But. But there's a real authentic conversation there and some healing that happens that people get to hear. They get to hear that first conversation. And what happened with that was people cared and people started to ask what they could do. So we created this 10 days of Jacob campaign where we had people emailing, writing, calling the DA and it was so much. I mean, it was from all over the world, Australia, the UK everywhere. And he emailed me two days into the 10 days of Jacob saying, can you please make this stop? Like, this is too much. And he turned the case over to the Attorney General, which was, wow, huge. The Attorney General had it for three years. I'm gonna turn my gay on now.
- [40:50]
Patrick Hines
Thank you.
- [40:51]
Eric Carter Landin
They had it for three years and they talked to one person and then they said, oh, job well done, guys. We're going to close this case. We did our best to investigate it. There's nothing we can do. Have a good life. Oh, by the way, do you and your mom want to put your handprints in some plaster and put Jacob's name on it and hang it on our community tree so we can show people we Care.
- [41:12]
Josh Hallmark
Oh, my God.
- [41:13]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah.
- [41:14]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God.
- [41:15]
Eric Carter Landin
Oh, and also, by the way, the reason we can't go forward is because your mom gave him an alibi, which she didn't, by the way. Spoiler alert. She did not give him an alibi. Nobody could alibi somebody who was alone with the victim. It's not possible.
- [41:28]
Patrick Hines
And who admitted to it twice.
- [41:30]
Eric Carter Landin
Yep. There's no recording. There's no transcript. There's no signed affidavit. There's nothing that indicates what he said, what conditions those confessions were given under. There's only one little note in the investigative file that says there's no need to administer a polygraph because the suspect confessed.
- [41:48]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God.
- [41:49]
Josh Hallmark
Nothing brings out my bitchy gay more than DA's interrogators and lazy FBI agents.
- [41:55]
Balm Box Advertiser
Yeah.
- [41:56]
Patrick Hines
I mean, so where does the case stand now?
- [41:59]
Eric Carter Landin
It's closed.
- [41:59]
Patrick Hines
And is he. He's just out there.
- [42:02]
Eric Carter Landin
He's been free for 39 years. He's very abusive person, you know, towards my mom, towards me, towards my brother. There's a lot more to the story that is in that episode with my mom. Yeah, it's heavy stuff, but, yeah, he's been free to hurt whoever he wants, and it seems like nobody really cares about, like, in government anyway.
- [42:25]
Patrick Hines
Yeah.
- [42:25]
Josh Hallmark
The true crime I love the most is where it's not just true crime. Like, it's, you know, it's storytelling that includes crime. And I think the conversation with your mom is like, the pinnacle of that. It was. It's such a wonderful. Seems like a poor choice of word, but, like, it's such a rich listen. And I think there's a lot there. It's super nuanced, and I think that's. Those are the true crime stories I love the most, where it's more than just the crime. It's about anthropology or culture or personal. Personal relationships. And I think that's what yours was.
- [42:58]
Patrick Hines
Can I ask, Eric, will you tell the TCO listeners about Advocacy Con?
- [43:02]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah. Well, I'm excited because we have a special guest attending Advocacy Con. Can I say that yet?
- [43:11]
Patrick Hines
Who is who? Oh, me?
- [43:13]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah.
- [43:14]
Patrick Hines
Did you just set yourself up? I know. I was like, wait, who's coming? Oh, I'm coming. I'm coming. I can't wait. I. I'm. I mean, you know, we are so invested, and we just love it. We're so happy that it exists. So, yeah, I can't wait. I'm very excited.
- [43:31]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah. AdvocacyCon. So everything I said earlier, everything I do is with the idea of how can I make families like mine, not feel like my family has felt for the last almost four decades. And so advocacy con was really an idea I had. I've attended a lot of true crime conferences. I think they definitely are valuable for families of the missing and murdered because you get to expose your case to a lot of people that may not see that case normally, but there was a lot missing, in my opinion, for the families. And so one of the things that I think is, as a listener and maybe even as a creator people may not consider is when you're put into this situation, you're not necessarily a PR person. You're not necessarily somebody who knows how to, you know, talk to police, to talk to medical investigators, to organize the community to get people on your side. Like, some people are just regular people who happen to have, you know, a tragedy that happens. And so advocacy con really exists to create a place where families can learn from experts, from people that. That understand what they're going through because they've been through it from each other, and to interface with resources and organizations that can help them move their cases forward or at least give them some relief. It's trauma informed. We are going to have a therapist on site to triage. We're going to have an art healing room. We have meditation, yoga, all kinds of stuff to just really take care of the family, wrap them up in love, and, you know, try not to trigger them. But if they are triggered, make sure that there's resources available to help them get through that.
- [45:18]
Patrick Hines
That's incredible. Where has this been? Where has this been for the last 20 years?
- [45:24]
Eric Carter Landin
Right? Yeah. I don't know. I just. I realized that there was a big space, like a big hole in this. In this arena. And so I feel like AdvocacyCon fills that hole. That sounded really. Have you ever seen a Mexican turn red from.
- [45:49]
Patrick Hines
Oh, this gay true crime podcast is going great, you guys.
- [45:52]
Josh Hallmark
I know.
- [45:52]
Eric Carter Landin
It's really hot.
- [45:53]
Patrick Hines
It's really hot. It's really hot.
- [45:55]
Josh Hallmark
They say the first step to success is finding a hole and filling it. I mean, I don't know how to transition out of that.
- [46:04]
Eric Carter Landin
There is no way to do that live here.
- [46:07]
Patrick Hines
Now.
- [46:14]
Josh Hallmark
Let's talk about cases. So I don't really immerse myself in true crime anymore because I. It's just like I live in it. I come into this office and it's just crime, crime all the time. But I did this year, for whatever reason, start listening to serialize podcasts again and, like, are there. Yeah, I don't know what it was. I think maybe just the political environment we're in. I just needed something.
- [46:40]
Patrick Hines
Yes, yes. I, I honestly, I turned off all my politics podcasts. The one that I listened to this year that I loved so much was who Took Misty Copsey? But yeah, that was like a, that was because that was the Pacific Northwest. And I do think that Israel Keys is mentioned briefly as a possibility for that one, but it was so, so good. I also did you guys listen to that Talina Czar podcast? It was like a woman who went missing during COVID and all of her friends like wanted it investigated. She's like an older woman and it turned out that she was like a member. She was like in this like crazy relationship with a man where it was like this sort of like patriarchal cult. It was wild.
- [47:25]
Eric Carter Landin
That's all.
- [47:25]
Patrick Hines
That's all the information I have.
- [47:28]
Josh Hallmark
I All mine are like true crime adjacent, but blink. Have you guys heard that?
- [47:34]
Patrick Hines
No.
- [47:35]
Josh Hallmark
Oh my God. It's about this guy who finds out he has this terminal disease and ends up in a. What's an awake coma? Or like he's in a coma for like months, but he can hear and feel everything and like while he's in the coma.
- [47:57]
Bowen Yang
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
- [47:59]
Matt Rogers
From Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.
- [48:02]
Bowen Yang
JBL Wireless Earbuds are for those who are the first to try something unique.
- [48:06]
Matt Rogers
The first wireless earbuds on the market with a touchscreen case which allows you to control your audio without reaching for your phone. They also have a touchscreen smart charging case for one touch control.
- [48:17]
Bowen Yang
I love being able to touch my buds and control the volume with a.
- [48:21]
Matt Rogers
Built in wireless transmitter that lets you plug and play with any device you want. JBL Wireless Earbuds connects you to all your favorite music, movies and games.
- [48:30]
Bowen Yang
The wireless transmitter also allows for JBL superior spatial sound that takes any audio and turns it into a 360 immersive experience.
- [48:38]
Matt Rogers
They've got a next gen smart charging case for a seamless listening experience. Leave your phone in your pocket. The smart charging case has all the features you need to fully control and customize your listening experience and the earbud settings in multiple languages right from the case.
- [48:52]
Bowen Yang
Use the smart charging case to see what song is playing or who's calling you or personalize the tactile screen with your favorite photo.
- [48:58]
Matt Rogers
Check the dynamic lock screen to get info on battery life, status, time, messages, etc.
- [49:03]
Bowen Yang
JBL Wireless Earbuds grab a pair@jbl.com when.
- [49:08]
Balm Box Advertiser
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- [50:21]
Josh Hallmark
His girlfriend is talking to him and she starts, like, telling him crazy shit where he suddenly is like, oh, I think she actually tried to kill me. And he's the only person to ever survive stage four of this disease. It's wild.
- [50:36]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God, it's so good. Meanwhile, cut to me, I would totally be the boyfriend admitting to the attempted murder. Like, I would just be sitting there talking. That would definitely be me.
- [50:47]
Josh Hallmark
And then Wild Boys, which is about the small town in Canada where these two teenage boys from the woods.
- [50:53]
Patrick Hines
Yes, yes. That's from, like, a couple years ago, I think. That was so good.
- [50:58]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah. And then Javier, who does pretend his thing on Ladonna Humphrey was like, rivet. I text him all the time, like, what's going on? What's going on?
- [51:06]
Patrick Hines
Wait, who's Madonna Humphrey?
- [51:07]
Eric Carter Landin
Oh, my God. You are going to. You're going down a wormhole. And I'm so excited for you.
- [51:12]
Josh Hallmark
And I do believe you covered her documentaries.
- [51:16]
Patrick Hines
Right, Right. I was gonna say that name sounds so familiar.
- [51:19]
Josh Hallmark
She was in the true crime space, and basically, allegedly, it turned out she was, like, conning everybody and, like, bullying people behind the scenes and doing really, really dark up shit.
- [51:31]
Patrick Hines
What was the documentary?
- [51:32]
Josh Hallmark
I don't know what hers is called, but the. The podcast.
- [51:35]
Eric Carter Landin
Melissa Wit. Yeah, something.
- [51:39]
Patrick Hines
Yes.
- [51:39]
Josh Hallmark
But the podcast is called who's Afraid of Ladonna Humphrey? And it is riveting.
- [51:45]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God, really?
- [51:47]
Eric Carter Landin
Yeah.
- [51:47]
Josh Hallmark
And it's wild to hear like a podcast about someone we all know or, like, have talked to.
- [51:54]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God. I remember when we said that we were doing that, we got a lot of. Of feedback about it.
- [51:59]
Josh Hallmark
Well, yeah, Javier was like, I don't know if you should line me up with Patrick because I did send him some tweets about Ladonna Humphrey. And I was like, oh, I don't think he would care at all.
- [52:08]
Patrick Hines
No, not at all. In fact, we were, we didn't respond to him because we didn't know if he was, like, a nice person or not. But it was because of him that we, I think we deleted the episode.
- [52:19]
Josh Hallmark
Oh, really? Okay.
- [52:20]
Patrick Hines
I think so. But no, like, that's an example of, like, we were grateful for his feedback. Live Connect me. Hi, Javier. Let's be besties.
- [52:28]
Josh Hallmark
What about you, Eric?
- [52:30]
Eric Carter Landin
Oh, well. So I'm trying to remember this podcast. So I can't remember. I was looking through my phone furiously trying to find it. It's a story similar to Jacob's, but since I can't remember it, I'm not going to be able to tell you. So I will say that a case that I follow very closely that I've been working on with the mom, I haven't done as much as she's done, by all means, but I had her on the show Untrue Consequences. It really touched me. His name was Zachariah Jawan Shorty and he was an up and coming rapper from the Navajo Nation. He was brutally killed and they just announced charges on his case last week. So I'm super excited. That case has been solved. It's been five years that Vanjie has been out there fighting for justice. She's going to be at Advocacy Con talking about that journey to justice. So that's super exciting. But that's one case that if you get a chance to listen to, it's a really tragic story. But I did include a lot of his music in my episode and it was really an honor to be able to tell his story. And I'm so excited is not the right word, but I'm so happy that Vanjie is getting closer to getting justice for her baby boy.
- [53:39]
Josh Hallmark
Incredible. I couldn't go last year, but I want to go this year because I always think of the best session I've ever seen at a conference was you and Julie Marie talking about the impact of true crime commercializing her case. And I like, she's such a great speaker and you are such a great interviewer. And it was just my Favorite session I've ever seen. It was so good.
- [54:03]
Patrick Hines
Can we talk about media pressure for a minute? Because, like, the podcast media pressure, I was on pins and needles, and I was. I would. I would talk to Julia a little bit about it because she was really nervous about, like, going into podcasting, and she didn't know if she'd be good at it or not. And I would. Every week, I would message her and be like, this is so. Last week's episode was the best episode of any podcast I ever heard. This week's is better than that. And it, like, I couldn't believe the writing of it. Like, I mean, it was so beautifully written. It was obviously produced by Sarah Turney, you know, and I just. Both of them. I couldn't. I need another season. Sarah promises they're going to make another one. But, like, it was not only was there, like, new information, which is obviously interesting for anybody who cares about that case, which. Everybody should care about that case. Everybody should care about every case. But it was. It was just so beautifully written from the heart, from the family. It was like, rip your heart out. Honesty. Like, you know, talking with the family, dealing with what it's been like to be probably one of the highest profile true crime cases. And. And I know Julie gave so much of herself. Like, it was emotionally exhausting for her to do that. And I. She's such an incredible woman, and every now and then, she will fire emoji. One of my workout pictures because she. She is the original beast. Like, she is the original CrossFit beast. Yeah.
- [55:31]
Josh Hallmark
I remember the first time I met her being like, I would never want to be on her bad side because she could annihilate me.
- [55:38]
Patrick Hines
I was on her bad side for five minutes, and I righted that wrong right quick.
- [55:46]
Josh Hallmark
Oh, the other one is the curse of America's Next Top Model. Anyone? Oh, my God.
- [55:52]
Patrick Hines
It's.
- [55:53]
Josh Hallmark
It's an investigative podcast looking at America's Next Top Model and how, like, horrible and problematic it was.
- [56:00]
Patrick Hines
Are we both. Eric, are we both going to subscribe right now or.
- [56:02]
Eric Carter Landin
Say less. Say less.
- [56:04]
Patrick Hines
Say less. Say less. Josh, shut up.
- [56:06]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah, I could not listen to it fast enough. They interviewed contestants, and we're actually good friends with a contestant who lives here in the Berkshires. And, like, the few bits of pieces like he's told us while hammered are shocking old.
- [56:21]
Patrick Hines
While Hammered. The Patrick Hines Story. Oh, my God. Oh, I'm so excited.
- [56:29]
Josh Hallmark
And it just finished, so you can, like, binge the whole series now.
- [56:32]
Eric Carter Landin
Oh, I mean.
- [56:34]
Patrick Hines
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
- [56:37]
Josh Hallmark
Well on that note, I think our hours up but this has been so fun. This is why I love doing these because it really does create community and we get to have conversations we couldn't otherwise online.
- [56:49]
Patrick Hines
Yes. You guys, we need to hang out. Josh, you got to come to Advocacycon so we can all hang out together.
- [56:53]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will.
- [56:56]
Eric Carter Landin
Awesome.
- [56:57]
Patrick Hines
All right boys, this was so fun. Thank you for including me. This was incredible.
- [57:01]
Josh Hallmark
Yeah, of course. Thanks for joining us and have a great holiday you guys.
- [57:04]
Patrick Hines
Yeah, same to you.
- [57:06]
Josh Hallmark
Bye Bye.
- [57:09]
Matt Rogers
Get ahead with one dose Xofluza Baloxavir.
- [57:11]
Patrick Hines
Marboxil Xofluza is available for delivery by mail or at your local pharmacy.
- [57:16]
Matt Rogers
Don't wait until it's too late.
- [57:18]
Patrick Hines
Be ready with Xofluza. Ask your doctor about xofluza and visit.
- [57:22]
Matt Rogers
Xofluza.Com this time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But identity thieves have lists too, and your personal information might be on there them. Protect your identity with Lifelock. Lifelock monitors millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss. If your identity is stolen, Lifelock will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com iheart terms apply. This is Julian Edelman from Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jewels. Sunday mornings I've got my game day ritual, coffee, lucky socks, and now new morning uncrustable sandwiches.
- [58:08]
Josh Hallmark
It's all about that 12 gram protein boost with the new uncrustables Bright eyed.
- [58:14]
Patrick Hines
Berry or up and apple flavors.
- [58:17]
Matt Rogers
Bright Eye Berries got a feisty receiver.
- [58:21]
Patrick Hines
Energy up an apple.
- [58:23]
Josh Hallmark
Your classic do it all tight end.
- [58:26]
Matt Rogers
Soft, pillowy, packed with protein and easy enough for Gronk to grab from the freezer.
- [58:32]
Patrick Hines
Whether you're on the couch, driving to.
- [58:35]
Josh Hallmark
The tailgate or heading to the locker room, New morning Uncrustable sandwiches are the MVP of snacks.
- [58:45]
Matt Rogers
Your new Sunday kickoff ritual starts here with new morning uncrustable sandwiches packed with 12 grams of protein.