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True Crime Garage
Amy Bradley /// A Cruise to Nowhere
01:02:59
Nic and the Captain welcome author James Renner into the Garage to discuss his new book, A Cruise to Nowhere, an in-depth examination of the mysterious disappearance of Amy Bradley. Together, they explore the timeline, the evidence, the lingering questions, and why Amy's case continues to captivate investigators and the public decades later.
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Host 1
USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. Picture this it's the end of a long week. You're unwinding in the tub, listening to your favorite true crime podcast and then chronic hives come back again in the middle of the episode. What a wet blanket looks like another spell of itchy, swollen, red or skin colored hives. If you have chronic spontaneous urticaria or csu, there may be a different treatment option. Worried about your chronic hives interrupting our next episode? Learn more@treatmyhives.com Garage Foreign. I'm your host.
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Host 2
It's good to be seen and it's
- [01:07]
Host 1
good to see you off the record.
- [01:10]
Host 2
Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
- [01:13]
Host 1
True Crime Podcast Be good, be kind
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James Renner
and don't let
- [01:20]
Host 1
Gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer.
- [01:22]
James Renner
Let's talk some true crime.
- [01:24]
Host 1
Welcome to True Crime Garage. This is off the Record, putting it on the big feed for everybody's earballs to listen to and love and enjoy. And we have a friend of the show joining us once again here in the Garage, a man that is no stranger to the garage and in fact a person that we've leaned on heavily when we take a look at this case. This is the missing persons case of Amy Bradley and many of you will know that from our episodes that we did with our guest today. That was episodes 862 and 863 on your True Crime Garage radio dial and also from the documentary that was on Netflix. Well, James Renner is joining us here once again in the Garage. He is the author of some of your favorite true crime books and the author of the book that is coming out July 28th regarding the Amy Bradley case and it is titled A Cruise to Nowhere How I Found Myself While Searching for Amy Lynn Bradley. James, thank you for joining us here in the Garage today.
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James Renner
Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a while. It's been a while. I still remember when, when you guys were like teenagers and we taped that first show in some abandoned factory in Columbus.
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Host 1
We all hopped on our BMX bikes and met up at the garage, did it, did a little recording. It feels like almost a lifetime ago, the first time that you were on the show. But to bring everybody up to speed here, for those that are unfamiliar with this case, this case has attracted a lot of eyes and ears over the years, over the decades, especially within the last couple of years. And I'm sure that your book is going to continue to intrigue people and probably inform people a little bit more. Because when the Amy Bradley documentary came out, Captain James, tell me if you had a shared experience. There was more than one establishment that I walked into, Overheard People, it was a very popular documentary, overheard people talking about the case to many of them it was new to them. I had remembered seeing the date line or the 2020 or whatever it was years ago. So and I, I almost felt like the original coverage on it was more in depth in a different way than what the Netflix was and, but the, the response I was getting and hearing from these folks is that they found the case to be very intriguing. They found the documentary to be enjoyable and interesting, but they also thought that it was leaving a lot of out and that's why I was so excited to hear that you were writing a book about the case.
- [04:16]
James Renner
James yeah, yeah, I mean it did leave a lot out. I mean it's, it's hard. The Amy Lynn Bradley case in some ways, like the Maura Murray case is endlessly complicated and you can, there are so many tangents that you can go down and talk about and they just weren't able to put it all in, you know, three episode, you know, miniseries on the case. Now I had about 350 pages to play with so I got to go into some of that stuff that was lost and for instance, you learn a lot more about the brothels in Curacao and Margarita island. And there's this whole other story about this guy named Frank Jones who was a con man who con the family and missing persons fund out of like over 200 and some thousand dollars. So and he ended up going to prison for it. And you didn't get that in the documentary series either. And you know, I also spoke to a lot more people than, than the documentary got to and including witnesses, including friends and former partners and yeah, so there's, it's quite comprehensive I think.
- [05:31]
Host 1
And the case is for those who are unaware. In March of 1998, the Bradley family of four, Ron Iva and their children Amy and Brad boarded the cruise ship Rhapsody of the Seas for a week long Caribbean vacation. This trip was to be a chance to celebrate two recent family milestones. Ron's success at work and Amy's college graduation. In the early morning hours of March 24, Amy, a pretty athletic 23 year old, returned to the family stateroom after dancing at the Ship's nightclub. She grabbed a blanket and went out to sleep on the room's private balcony. A few hours later, her father awoke to find her gone. What happened to her remains a mystery. And that mystery consists of a lot of different possibilities here. Did Amy jump? Did she fall into the water? Did her sexual orientation have anything to do with her vanishing? Did the cruise ship officers botch the initial search during the first critical hours? Did Amy voluntarily disembark at Carousel that morning? Was she smuggled off the ship against her will and trafficked in one of the island's brothels? Amy Bradley's now been missing for close to 30 years. Her family and many others suspect foul play. This is a case that the FBI, for reasons that are easily understood, got involved in because this is a disappearance of a young American woman in international waters. I don't think we talked about this in our previous episodes because we, we really stuck to the case and not so much about a pending book, but through conversations. You know, we're, we're privileged enough to be friends, the three of us, and hang and have conversations that are not all on microphone. And when the announcement of the documentary was coming out, we had a conversation. You said, well, the crazy part of that is I've been working on this story. I think the documentary had its own complications for you in regard to your book. But what was sort of the genesis of you wanting to look into the story because it wasn't brought on by the documentary.
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James Renner
So I was lucky enough to be in a position where I had a book contract with a publisher and I owed them a new true crime book. And so I was, you know, it's such a wonderful, you know, chance, you know, after so many years of hustling, to be able to sit there and think, okay, the next book is guaranteed. What the heck do I want to write about? So I had a. I kind of had a short list of stories that I have thought about turning into a book over the years. And, you know, when you're looking for a true crime story to devote, you know, a year, year and a half to two years of your life to, you want something that is. Is big, you know, and something that people kind of already know about, but one that there isn't a book already written about, and those are very few and far between. I was, I took a hard look at the, the Springfield Three case, and I thought that that was going to be the book. I even met with one of the girls surviving parents. They, it seemed they were on board. But then one of them got sick and it just didn't work out. So I looked at some of these other cases that I already kept on a list, and one of them was Amy Lynn Bradley. And I reached out to the family through the website and later that night, I got a call from Iva, Amy's mother. She said, hey, how you doing? You know, you want to talk? And that led to a zoom call. And then that led to an invite to come out to visit them at their home in Chesterfield, Virginia, which is outside Richmond. It went very well at first. I had started to interview some of Amy's friends and that's when I started hearing, oh, hey, we just talked to Netflix. And I was like, oh, interesting. So that's how I learned that there was this documentary being made. And, you know, saying it was, it's technically not Netflix. It was their, you know, this production company that had to deal with Netflix. And I was in early contact with one of the producers on the show, on the, on the documentary. And that relationship was really good. At first. We, I shared some information and so did they. And. But then at around the same time, both myself and the documentary people discovered that the secret, which is that Amy Lynn Bradley was gay. And that that hadn't been talked about since, you know, all these years, since her disappearance in 1998. And that there were former partners of hers that really wanted to talk about it, a woman named Katie and a woman named Molly. And so there was going to be conversations with the family because they would have to, you know, we'd have to give them the opportunity to talk about this and to let them know that we know this. I had the interview with the family first. I think they had already talked to them, but not about this. And so when I went out there, I sat down with Iva and Ron, Amy's parents, and her brother Brad. We had this, I think it was like around five hour interview. And I asked them basic background questions first. I wanted to, to get all the basic stuff out of the way. And then we broke for lunch and Iva made pulled pork sandwiches that were delicious and potato salad, all the fixings. And after lunch, you know, I came around to asking those questions and I said, hey, I've spoken to Molly. She's going to be included in this book. And I'll have to talk about the fact that your daughter was gay. And there was an immediate change of demeanor, this openness and attention that I felt vanished. Iva was pretty upset and said that she didn't think it was anybody's Business had nothing to do with anything. Brad, for his part, I will say, spoke up and said, you know, hey, mom, you know, maybe it is the time we talk about this, you know, and he said, if she was around today, he would assume that she'd be with a woman. And, you know, maybe it is time to talk about that. So, you know, Iva was upset. She's like. And, you know, she was upset that Netflix knew about it but hadn't asked her about it yet. She said, you know, Amy's not here to defend herself. And, you know, that, you know, we just went back and forth on it for a while. She said, why? Why didn't Netflix talk to me about this before you came up? And I said, well, yeah, I can't speak for them, but the reason I. I didn't ask you these questions until towards the end is because I'm afraid that I'm going to lose you as a source. And she said, no, no, no, she's. You're not going to lose me. You know, we're doing this for Amy. And, you know, three days later, she sent me a text that just said, I can't help you anymore. We're done. So, yeah, that's the last I've talked to Iva. But unfortunately, with the Netflix thing, you know, that definitely soured my relationship with Netflix as well, because I think it made it very difficult for them to then talk to the Bradleys about that same same thing. But they did manage to get them on camera talking about it.
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Host 2
Well, that always becomes a difficult thing. These family members want attention for the case, but they can't control the complete narrative. And I don't think that's fair to the victim. It's not fair to the case, because if you don't have all the pieces, then we don't even know what kind of case we're looking at.
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James Renner
Correct? Yeah.
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Host 2
But you're in a very unique situation because you go, I'm going to work on this case. I'm going to try to write a book about this. I have inside sources. And now I don't. But then the documentary comes out. What was the initial reaction as you're watching the documentary? Because at this point, you already have a great deal of research done.
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James Renner
A couple of things. I thought they did a fine job for. For what it was. I mean, it's a. It's a complex case, and they were able to break it down pretty succinctly. There was a lot left out. You know, I think there was too much of an angle and A push to suggest that Amy had been trafficked in the Caribbean into the sex trade in the Caribbean, where there's no evidence to, to suggest that. And I, you know, so. And I don't know that they even believe that. I mean, you'd have to ask them. I can't speak for them, but it would surprise me if they really in their hearts believe that that's what happened to Amy. Because I think anybody that takes time to really delve into this case will see how very unlikely it is that that's what happened.
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Host 1
When you say they, do you mean the persons putting together the documentary or Amy's family or both?
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James Renner
The documentary. I can understand why Amy's want to believe that. It gives hope that she could still be alive after all this time. But the documentary people knew better and should have been smart enough to see that.
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Host 1
Back to the question and talk of her sexuality. I mean, Amy, I'm not going to pretend to know everything going on in her world at that time, but it, from what I've been able to follow in this case, it appears that she was out or somewhat out, at least to some degree when she goes missing in 1998.
- [15:47]
James Renner
Yeah, it was a difficult discussion for her. So Kat talks about this because she was there when it happened. So Amy and this woman Kat were in love in college and shared a dorm room for a time and they had kind of kept it on the down low. But then the secret came out in an interesting way. Amy had called the dorm room and left a message and Kat came in with another one of their friends and checked the message and it's Amy talking to Kat and she says, I love you. And, and the other friend's like, whoa, what? And that's kind of how the secret came out there. And so that night, I think it was that night, they ended up telling all their friends there and their friends were very supportive and they realized they had to tell their parents. And Kat went home and talked to her family and they're like, okay, you know. And Amy went home and talked to her family and it did not go well. Her father, Ron, according to Kat, wrote a several page letter on yellow legal note notebook paper talking about how disappointed he was in her. That made Kat feel very, very bad for a while. And you know, talking with the Bradleys, you know, they really try to stress and make a point. You know, when we talk about Amy's sexuality, they're like, Amy was bi. She dated men too. She was bi. That is not how Amy identified according to her friends. And the people that knew her closely and well, she identified as gay, queer, lesbian, and she was, she was frequenting lesbian bars and Richmond had been for years and that's where she liked to hang out. So in her mind there was no question about her sexuality. But she did occasionally have a boyfriend that according to Kat, that they both had boyfriends that they would have to kind of, so their parents would think that they were straight. And there was a boyfriend towards the time of the cruise that Amy was seeing. He was older, he worked at the same restaurant as she did. They, they had seen each other and had been intimate and you know, she had, were. She was kind of ending that relationship because she was getting back together with, with Molly. So. And during the course of that relationship, she was still trying to, you know, get back together with Molly. So, you know, it became apparent to me after speaking to her friends and getting the timeline straight when Amy was on that cruise In March of 1998, she had a big decision to make when she got home from that cruise. And that was either to live her true life, the life that she wanted to be open and out and to be with Molly again, or to deny that, to mask and to keep things on the level so that her relationship with her family didn't suffer for it. So that's what was awaiting her. I can't imagine the level of stress she had thinking about those things on
- [18:59]
Host 1
the cruise because both of those choices, you're at a crossroads and both of those choices don't come without consequence.
- [19:07]
James Renner
Correct? Yeah, it's kind of a no win. You're going to lose somebody or at least I don't think she really would have lost her family. I think eventually they would have come to, I hope, understand and accept. I do think they have. Have that capability, but it would have been rough.
- [19:25]
Host 1
And she was, I mean, everything we could see, she was close with her family. Just because it not seeing eye to eye on this or maybe hesitant to believe or don't want to believe, but I say she was close with her family, but it seems like her and her brother were super tight, like, like some of the best of friends at times.
- [19:44]
James Renner
Yeah, I think the whole family was like that. The parents really, the relations was more like a good friend. You know, they were certainly, you know, parental. But, you know, they'd hang around, drink and play cards and they just love to be with each other. And the, the family has this ability, especially Iva, where she, if she likes you, she pulls you in close and I got a, I got a little taste of that. And, you know, when she invited me to the house and I show up, I brought flowers for her, and, you know, she, she brought me in and she said, look, I don't invite anybody into this home that I don't love. And I was really touched by that. And then five hours later, you know, it was a very different. It was a very different feeling. And, and, and that hurt and, you know, and that was only a day for me. I can't imagine, like, you know, the turmoil going inside Amy.
- [20:42]
Host 2
Well, and I think that's what's interesting about the family is you, you see this closeness, but I also see it as. There's some controlling aspects of this, and it's not in this physically abusive way or even a mentally abusive way. It's controlling by the closeness. I mean, even the trip itself, it seems like, hey, we're all going to go on this cruise. But Amy was kind of hesitant to even want to go on the cruise to begin with.
- [21:10]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah, I heard that from a number of people that she was a little afraid of it. And I think it was Kat or Molly that said they thought maybe it was because of the lack of control, because Amy, like her mother, like, thrived with control. Control, you know, was something that she sought in her life as much as she could. I think being on that cruise, it also put her in close quarters with her, with her family while she's, you know, really thinking about being out and open and there's, there's some turmoil there.
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Host 2
We all can relate to the idea of, like, maybe the coolest thing is not to go on a cruise ship with my family and all. By the way, I'm going to have to share this makeshift bed with my brother.
- [22:00]
James Renner
Yeah, it was very, you know, the, there were four of them in the room. The room's not that big. I did, eventually, I actually took a trip on that cruise ship and got into that room to see it myself. The. So you've got the parents on the bed and you've got this couch that pulls out, and Amy and Brad would share the bed and, and Amy sometimes, I guess, would also sleep on the balcony, kind of wrapped up in a blanket. So it's very close quarters. I don't know that I, If I was 23, if I necessarily would have wanted to be in such close, close quarters with, with my, with my family like that. But, you know, they, they, they were very close. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting. You know, it's, it's hard to talk about, because, you know, I. I still. I still, you know, I do like the Bradleys. They were really good people. And I do, you know, you gotta feel for them because, you know, we don't know what happened to Amy. She's gone. Although we know that she's gone. And who wouldn't want her to still be alive? And during the course of the research, I also like, something I should have done early on, before that interview with the Bradleys that I didn't do was search their social media around the time the documentary people started noticing it and started sending me links. And, you know, you're searching for your daughter or your sister who's gay and you think may still be alive. At the same time, you're putting stuff on social media that is very anti lgbtq, anti trans. And if she were alive and saw that, that kind of thing, you know, I. There would be some hesitation. I would think there'd be hesitation to. To engage. You know, they. They say that they support the fact that she was bi, but their social media definitely suggest that you're not supportive of that sort of lifestyle in general.
- [23:46]
Host 2
When a lot of times, when a younger person is struggling with their identity, you'll see these cases where it's like, well, maybe I am bisexual. And then that eventually becomes, well, I'm not actually bisexual. I'm. I'm just gay. With her going missing, we will never know what the final decision on how she wants to live her life. My big issue with this case is with so many other missing person cases, the timeline leading up and all these things seem to matter so much. This case, I don't think it matters as much because she's on a cruise ship, she's in a confined area. And based on everything I've seen, to me it's like, well, she comes back into the room, she's talking to her brother on the balcony. He goes in, the dad wakes up and sees her, and then wakes up and doesn't see her. And so you go, well, do we have any evidence that she even got out of the room?
- [24:49]
James Renner
Right. Actually, I'm glad you mentioned that, because at first glance, when I first saw this case, I agreed with you. What does the timeline matter? You know, she vanished from the balcony. But I think the timeline matters a lot, mostly because at this point, the family. The narrative that the family is putting out and their supporters are putting out is that at 5:30am, when they say that Ron last saw Amy, the cruise ship would have been either in or just in front of the canal leading into the, the canal that goes into Curacao, into Willemstad, the, the city there and the canal it would go, the cruise ship would go into the canal, under the, under the big bridge and then, and then park there at the time. So if the timeline they have been putting out with her being Last seen at 5:30 is accurate, then it really begs the question why if she fell off the, if she fell or jumped into the water, why didn't they find the body if it was in the canal and there's all these people around and boats and everything. Well, I found that the timeline that we've been given is most likely incorrect and there are some gaping holes in it too. My biggest, the, the thing that upset me the most is I, I interviewed the Bradleys several times and then we had that five hour interview and on two or three separate occasions I went over this whole timeline with them. Now what we had been given up to that point is that Amy went up to the dance club. That's where she was dancing with this guy, Alistair Douglas, AKA Yellow, who was in the ship's band. They were grinding and that's who they have been pushing as the lead suspect of this case, this guy Yellow, because he was kind of last seen with her. And then she and Brad come back down to the cabin and go to sleep and then they suggest that she went out of the room to meet up with Yellow again. Now what was not told to me in any of those interviews and didn't come out until I think after the, the documentary is that Ron, their father, came up to the dance club at around 3am to ask them to come back to bed. And I think that could be quite important based on a number of interviews I did, including this guy, Ryland Johnson, who was a friend of Amy's. And she's. This, is this. So Ryland reached out to me when he heard I was writing a book and he's like, we gotta talk. And the story he told me was that a day before the cruise, Amy showed up at his house. They hadn't seen each other in years and she seemed pretty upset and she just wanted to talk. And they talked for a while and then she started asking him questions about an unsuccessful suicide attempt that he had had. And he's open about this in the book and she wanted to know details and about why it wasn't successful. And you know, his ears perked up. He's like, what do you, why are you asking me about this?
- [28:05]
Host 2
Kind of a weird question.
- [28:07]
James Renner
Yeah, are you planning something? And you know she kind of alluded to the answer and he was really concerned for her. And when she went missing, his first thought was, oh, she committed suicide. So Ryland, when he heard that Amy was dancing with Yellow, he's like, look, if she was dancing with a black guy on that cruise ship, she was doing it to piss off her parents. And if they would have seen it, they would have flipped their shit. So you get dad now we find out coming up to the dance club at 3am did he see her dancing with Yellow? Did that upset him? She's dancing, you know, his, his work buddies are on this cruise. Like that's why they were on the cruise. They went there as part of his, his, his work. So did that upset him? I don't know. I don't know. Would that have. So, but why did they leave that out for the three times that I asked them about? So Dad's up there at 3am they go back down. So Dad's probably awake by the time they get back to the, the cabin there. So was there a discussion, was there some hurt feelings? You know, what was said at that point? I don't know. Amy goes to the balcony, everybody else goes to sleep. Now we're told that he last sees her at 5:30, but I found some early newspaper reports that when in the weeks after she disappeared, it was reported that she was last seen not at 5:30, but at 4:30, which if true would be significant because the cruise ship would not be in the canal, it would still be out at open sea. And if she went overboard there, they'd never find her, you know, and they were searching in the wrong place because the search efforts to find Amy's body only happened around Curacao. So I reached out to Amy's aunt Marian Marianne, and she's the one that's quoted in the papers back then because she was the family spokesperson for a while and she's no longer close with the family. She's living actually, she's in the Caribbean. She's living, I think St. Thomas some somewhere down there. So I spoke to Aunt Mary and the first thing she said to me was, you know, it took you long enough. And I knew she had something good. You know, I said, tell me about the timeline. You know, the last time they saw her it was at 5:30 or 4:30. And she said, well if, if I said 4:30 back then it was 4:30. Because all, everything I told the papers at the time came from direct conversations with the Bradleys. And she would write it down note for note. So she didn't get anything wrong. So I think that's a more accurate timeline is the 4:30. Marianne told me something else that it's interesting she picked up a day or two after they got back. After Amy disappeared, the family comes back to Richmond Chesterfield. Aunt Marianne takes Iva into the city and the story that Marianne says is that she dropped Iva, Amy's mother, off so that she could get a polygraph. And everybody was getting polygraphed who was, you know, there last seeing Amy was on Rhapsody of the Seas that might have seen something and she came back very upset. Her, you know, skin was all splotchy and she told Marianne that the test was inconclusive.
- [31:45]
Host 2
Foreign.
- [31:51]
Host 1
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- [38:11]
Host 2
This goes back to what I was saying about this controlling nature culture. So our daughter is gay. Instead of having a conversation with her, there's a, there's a letter written. Then it's like, hey, we know you're 23 years old, but we really want you to come on this cruise ship with us. And is there some motivation to separate her from some of her friends? Who knows? Dancing is not always sexual, right?
- [38:41]
James Renner
So, yeah.
- [38:42]
Host 2
So then you go, well, was she just dancing with this guy for fun or she doing it to get a, some reaction out of her family? Yellow seems to have said certain things about their conversation that he remembers. And her talking about not wanting to be on the cruise again, controlling the narrative of what is going to be put out on Netflix or what's going to be put in your book. This stuff bothers me. Then trying to rewrite history of the timeline again. I don't think there's any proof that she left the room.
- [39:20]
James Renner
I think that's, that's what the FBI says. That's what the FBI has told the Bradleys very recently. They said, look, there's no evidence she ever left that, that balcony or that room. Now I will say this, you know, I, you know, with the book and everything, I do not think the parents or the brother, I don't think the family is involved with what ultimately happened to Amy. I don't think they did anything nefarious. I think, I think most of this can be chalked up to not wanting to talk about or to accept that, that Amy was, was gay, that she was a lesbian, which some of us are think, you know, would think. Well, why is that such a big deal even today? And you have to remember, and something that I came to learn visiting Richmond is that that's still the, that's still the Deep south, man. Even though it's like a six and a half, seven hour drive from, you know, where I lived in Akron. Ohio. You know, it's. Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, you know, and, like, my aunt lived there for a time, and she has this story when I told her I was going to do research on this case, she's like, be careful in Richmond. It's a. It's a different. It's a different place. And she had lived there. And she told me the story that happened in the early 90s when she went out to dinner with my uncle. And, you know, they're sitting down for a meal, and 9:30 on a Friday night, the lights dim, and everybody lights a candle on their table and they sing Dixie, you know, so. So it's. It's kind of wrapped up in that whole Deep South Christian, you know, beliefs. And. And, yeah, it's. It's. It's still very hard to. For LGBTQ members down there.
- [41:09]
Host 1
So I'm guessing that they. With the FBI saying no proof that she left the room, they. By that statement that is saying that proo. Every. We have every proof that she did, in fact, return to the room that night. And if they do do that, does that go beyond perhaps a conversation with her brother or a sighting by the father?
- [41:30]
James Renner
Yeah, well, they. They have her key card. Swipe. So the. She had the card that you use to get back in the room, and each of them are individual to the person. So, you know, I guess you could say all we know is that somebody used her car to get back in the room, but it was. It was most likely Amy that came in. They also have video from the common areas of the ship. I don't think this gets talked about enough. You know, everybody's like, oh, there's no video of Amy. Well, that could be telling, because they did have video from. While they didn't have video, like, in the hallway or, like, the balcony or anything like that, they did have it in the big public areas of the ship. And if she had gone out on her own, like, walked out when they got to Curacao, or if there had been an altercation with. With Yellow somewhere public, that. That. That would have been on. They would have had that on tape. So I think that's more reason to believe that she never came out of the room. Is. You know, she was never spotted in a public place after that.
- [42:31]
Host 1
Well, in the documentary, the Netflix version, it's a lot of suspicion thrown at Yellow.
- [42:40]
James Renner
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:42]
Host 1
And you. And when we talked to you for our previous episodes, it was fascinating to hear that you spoke at length with that gentleman.
- [42:51]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah. You know, I realized that I I had to speak with him, and I think at some point is, especially given how much the documentary paints him in a negative light, they really should have taken the initiative to go down to Grenada to speak with him, but I think it was just too expensive for them. You know, they would have had to take a cameraman and, you know, producer and a writer and, you know, so you're, you're shipping at least three or four people on a plane to Grenada, and it seems they just didn't want to take the expense. Well, if you don't want to, you don't want to pay for it, then, you know, don't, don't use all the other stuff that paints them in such a bad light. Zoom.
- [43:30]
Host 1
Call the guy for. I mean.
- [43:31]
James Renner
Well, I think they tried that and I don't think he would agree. I don't see him agreeing to that. But the only way to really get him was to go down there. And I kind of realized that. So it was, it was kind of a risk. But on my own dime, I flew down to Grenada and, and tracked him down. I knew he was working at a church, so what I did was I just showed up at the church service on a Sunday morning and joined the choir. Yeah, you know, in my, in my mind, I'm like, well, I'll just go to the church and I'll just blend in. He won't even know I'm there until, like, afterwards. And I'll talk to him, but, like, you know, I forgot, like, I'm a white dude.
- [44:09]
Host 1
I was going to say, do you blend in well in Grenada?
- [44:12]
James Renner
I do not, in fact, blend in in Grenada.
- [44:15]
Host 1
So with your, with your notepad and pen.
- [44:18]
James Renner
Yes.
- [44:19]
Host 2
And your microphone.
- [44:20]
James Renner
It's also ridiculously hot, man. Like, even at 9 o' clock in the morning, I'm, like, sweating. And they're, they're used to it. Like, they're like in long sleeves and pants and, you know, I'm just dying in the back. But, you know, he, he sees me and I go up to him and introduce myself and, and I said, I said, man, I've come a long way just to talk to you. Do you have 10 minutes after your service? And he, he's like, yeah. He's like, I know how, how far you've come. He's like, I will. I respect it. I will talk to you. And so I sat in on his service and he, and then he talks about how he's the exorcist on the island and, and talks about driving a, you know, the night before Driving a demon out of a woman, and she was vomiting black bile all over the place, and he had to get this demon out of her. So it was pretty trippy.
- [45:09]
Host 2
Well, at least he got the demon out of her.
- [45:11]
James Renner
So, yeah, he. I talked to him, and I found him to be very honest and candid, you know, and he has a wife, beautiful wife and a couple kids, I think. And, you know, he. He remembered, you know, a lot because of what happened later. You know, it kind of cemented in his mind. And, you know, he said Amy was chain smoking on the. On the ship and told him that she was gay and that her parents didn't approve and that she was having a hard time because of that. And, you know, he. He talked about how this is kind of really impacted his life in a. In a horrible way. People leaving terrible comments on his social media or, like, even his daughter's social, like, Instagram account. And, you know, so he's always watching his back up there. He told me that the FBI came and visited him a couple years ago, and they did another round of questioning. And then according to Yellow, he was told that he was cleared, that, you know, he didn't have anything.
- [46:10]
Host 2
Well, I believe they gave him a polygraph test, right?
- [46:13]
James Renner
I think so, yeah.
- [46:14]
Host 2
And. And again, this would affect his life and not just. Well, because if you go on these cruise ships, they normally, you know, scan the Internet for anything about you as a part of their background check. So I'm guessing that this might have affected some of his employment, but I think this also affected his relationship with one of his daughters, because she was. Starts going, well, there's this missing person case, and my father's name is brought up. So now she's starting to question every action of her father.
- [46:44]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had a strained relationship, but, you know, he told me, he's like, look, she'll come around. You know, she'll realize that I had nothing to do with it, and things will. Things will work out.
- [46:57]
Host 2
Yeah. So with the Brian Schaefer case, man walks into a bar and he's not seen on camera leaving. So as you start looking into a case like that, you go, well, is it possible that he left without being seen on camera? And that's the same thing I feel here. And so if she made it back to the room, and if we believe what her family's saying, there's not too many options. She either goes overboard by accident or on purpose, or she possibly goes into another room. And there was the weird neighbor. And I've heard some Rumors online of, of him talking to himself, people hearing him talk to himself through the walls and stuff.
- [47:40]
James Renner
I never put too much stock in the, the neighbor stuff. You know, if the one, one of the things I go back to is the story that Amy snuck out of the room to go meet with Yellow and then that's when he grabbed her and, or she ended up somewhere and somebody else took her. It's four people in a very small room. Can you leave without anybody noticing you're gone? Her dad even says he's kind of in and out of sleep, so it's difficult to believe that. And then once you open the door to that room, something odd takes place and there's, there's signs up to warn you about this. There's difference in pressure between the hallway and the outside. And what we do know is that balcony door was open, letting in the outside pressure. So if she would have opened that door, there would have been a wind tunnel effect that swept through that room that would have, you know, every loose piece of paper, every curtain, you know, would have been shaking and they would have woken up. She didn't leave. She didn't leave that room.
- [48:51]
Host 2
And it also possibly causes the door to slam behind her. So that would wake people up. But again, okay, so if they didn't wake up, where is the video footage of her? You think they would, they would have that.
- [49:07]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah. If she got out, you know, certainly she would have appeared on one of the, the public, you know, she would have had to cross through like the, the main atrium and would have been picked up on camera for that.
- [49:18]
Host 2
When they started searching for her, they found Yellow pretty quickly.
- [49:23]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah, they called him at his room first. He was still in his, in his room. I think they might have even woken him up. And he had a roommate too, that, that, that detail gets lost. So, you know, if there is some, if he did something to her, then the roommate has to be in on the conspiracy to some level. And I just don't see that happening.
- [49:43]
Host 2
Yeah, and I guess the idea would be, well, if you're on these cruise ships and you're trying to make money, then maybe there was the side hustle of I'm going to traffic some girl and he's, he was on multiple cruise ships beforehand and afterwards and there's know nothing suspicious about him.
- [50:03]
James Renner
Right, let's, let's talk about that for a second because I did a lot of research into human trafficking in the Caribbean. First of all, there's not one verified incident of a white woman or any woman Being kidnapped from a cruise ship and trafficked into the sex trade in the Caribbean. Secondly, prostitution is illegal to this day on Curacao. Like, you don't need to kidnap women to have prostitutes. And you know, even in the other island, Margarita island, you know, there's prostitution there. Human trafficking does occur in the Caribbean, but it is almost exclusively with women of color from places like the Dominican Republic, poorer countries like Haiti and Venezuela, where the economic incentive to, even though the prostitution is legal, what they can make in that brothel is like 10 times what they could make back home. So it is a kind of slavery, you know, that just the economic incentive itself. But to have a white woman in those brothels would attract so much undue attention. No criminal is going to want that known. You know, the word will get out. Curacao's, you know, it's a Netherlands, it's a Netherlands country. And so there's, I mean, a ton of white people on there speaking Dutch and English. So, you know, she also would have had no trouble communicating with people to get, to escape or to get help. White women are not trafficked in the Caribbean.
- [51:47]
Host 1
Well, and in that way too, she would have stood out in the way that you stood out at the church in Grenada.
- [51:55]
James Renner
Right, right, exactly. And it's not as, you know, I spent time down there, I rented a car, drove all over the island. It's not as dangerous as you hear. Everybody there was, was friendly. Of course I have the privilege of, you know, I've got the middle aged white guy, nobody's really going to mess with me. But, you know, I didn't see any, I didn't see any really scary places. There were some kind of slums, but, you know, nothing, nothing that I would say would be nothing, nothing worse than East Cleveland. So the, the other thing is, you know, they point to, you know, the people that support this theory that Amy was trafficked. You know, they point to this picture of a, of a prostitute sex worker from one of the, the brothels that looks a lot like her and it sure, sure does. And they also mentioned the sightings of Amy over the years. And you know, so I talk a lot about, you know, how, how memory and, and sightings work and how eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. And as to that picture that people keep coming back to, that they suggest is, is Amy a year or two after her abduction, she's got kind of that like late 80s, early 90s, like poofy hair and is scantily dressed. You know, they'll say in these pictures, you know, isn't it a coincidence that you can't see any of Amy's identifying marks, her tattoos, and, you know, she's positioned in such a way that you can't see any of these things. And that, to me, was like, well, I'm like, wow. Like, maybe. Maybe that's right. But there are other photographs of that same sex worker that were not included in the documentary that have not been shared with the family that clearly show, you know, there. There are no tattoos, there are no identifying marks that Amy would have, so that it's. It's. It's not Amy in those pictures.
- [54:00]
Host 1
And further, there was a. I don't recall. It's been a year since I've watched the documentary, the Netflix documentary, so I can't recall if this made it to that presentation, but there was a beach photo that was discredited after the fact. And it was. It was one that people looked at and were convinced. There were a lot of people that were convinced that it was, in fact, Amy sitting there on the beach in that photograph. But we learned that that photo was staged by the private investigator that was hired by the Bradley family. He and his. He did everything he could to string them along and keep hope alive in order to keep fleecing them for more and more money and saying, look, my investigation is working. My investigation is working. I'm getting closer and closer to your daughter. And here's visual proof.
- [54:56]
James Renner
Yeah, yeah, he did a lot of damage. That guy's name was Frank Jones. And I devote, I think, three or four chapters to his story in there because it's fascinating to me, just as like, it's fascinating human behavior, because at some point he got in so deep that, like, what did he think his end game was? He knew it wasn't Amy in those photos because he helped stage them. So I don't know what he thought, how he thought all that was going to end. It certainly eventually was going to catch up to him, and it did. He ended up serving, I think, five years in prison over that whole thing, and had to pay restitution to the sum of, like, just somewhere around a half million dollars to everybody.
- [55:39]
Host 1
He had even claimed that they were going to do, like, some black ops do this. This undercover operation and go in there with guns drawn if they had to, to. To pull her out of a situation, if I recall correctly.
- [55:53]
James Renner
That's right, yeah. In fact, not. He, you know, the first trip, you know, they paid him, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, and. And he told him, you know, that, okay, I Went in with my Navy SEALS guys, and we. We found her. We totally found her. But then there was a firefight between my group and the Colombians, and we killed two of them, and they wounded a couple of ours, and we had to retreat, you know, so you got to pay us more to go back in, and we'll get her this next time. But what a ridiculous story, like, for something like that to happen, like downtown Curacao, like, without making the news, without anybody being alerted. The fact that you have Colombian warlords, you know, with machine guns at a property guarding a single white woman from Virginia. I mean, it's a. It's a fantasy.
- [56:42]
Host 2
One of the things that drives me bonkers about this case, though, is, is when people say, well, she wanted to jump because she would have been too afraid to. And it's like, well, if she was jumping with the idea that I'm. I need to be out of this world, I'm going to commit suicide. If you're going to commit suicide, I'm sure. People that shoot themselves are afraid of the gun. People that take the pills are afraid of what's going to happen. People that hanging themselves are afraid of what's going to happen. But the. The depression, whatever it is that's drawing them to do this, is more powerful than the fear of. Because essentially they're letting go. Right?
- [57:27]
James Renner
Yeah.
- [57:28]
Host 2
So that. That's always bothered me about this case, but. So since your relationship with the Bradleys started out good, but has kind of severed, are you worried that that's going to. Because I'm assuming that you believe what you uncovered is going to help add more pieces to the puzzle and to move the case possibly forward. But are you worried about their reaction to the book?
- [57:55]
James Renner
I think I've already seen their reaction in just the things that they've said on social media, and it's, you know, it's disheartening. I cared very much for them, and I didn't take it lightly when Iva said she loved me and invited me into her home. I love that. And it was a relationship that I really, really wanted for this new book, you know, to have a relationship like that with the family involved. So, you know, I don't know what the reaction is going to be. It's, you know, it's not what they. It's certainly not what they believe or believe, you know, say publicly, which is that they believe she's still alive. But I really did like what you were saying about how. And it's something I hadn't put together, but How. Perhaps the reason Amy was so afraid of the cruise is that she in some way recognized the danger that could present itself as an opportunity for her to commit suicide. I think that there's a lot of truth, and I think there could be a lot of truth in that. You know, the same way that somebody that has suicidal ideations would see a gun and try to steer away from it, because they wouldn't exactly know what they would do if they had it in their hands. Yeah. And then she was on this balcony, you know, and essentially putting the gun in her hands. Did she take the opportunity to do it? There's another thing that I think about. There's a writer named David Foster Wallace who I like, and he was. Was talking about suicide and. And how it makes sense in. And he ultimately did die by suicide.
- [59:37]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [59:38]
James Renner
But how. How. How people think about it. And he equated it to 9, 11. Those people that jumped from the building, you know, where. Why did they jump? You know, it's. It's. You know, it's because they had this. This inferno behind them, and they chose to go out on their own accord rather than succumb to the. The fire. And he said that's what depression is. Is. Is. And when you choose to die by suicide, it's. The fire is too great at this point, and you'd rather jump because it's something different.
- [60:16]
Host 2
Wouldn't be such a difficult situation if. If you tried to have a conversation with your family, and not only do you feel like they're not listening, but they're also combative against who you are. And so that would put yourself in a very difficult situation. And on top of that, when you go on cruise ships, what do you do? You. You drink.
- [60:42]
James Renner
Yeah.
- [60:43]
Host 2
And that. And maybe you can be fine with drinking one day, but you have. You're having suicidal thoughts. And that's speculation. We're speculating that she might have had suicidal thoughts.
- [60:54]
James Renner
There's circumstantial evidence, though. You know, the conversation with her friend and, you know, the. Yeah. So.
- [61:00]
Host 2
Yeah. And I think. So then you have an individual that is drinking that's a depression or that's a depressive. One or two days of that, and now you're. Every night you're sitting on that balcony contemplating things.
- [61:13]
James Renner
Yep.
- [61:14]
Host 2
And then I think maybe. Maybe that's one of the reasons too, that the family was so guarded about that, because maybe because of this stuff that thought creeped into their mind. And I don't fault the family for going, well, she never would have jumped because she would have been afraid to jump. Well, maybe she didn't try to jump off to go swimming, but maybe she jumped for a different reason.
- [61:39]
James Renner
Yeah.
- [61:39]
Host 2
And, and that's something that anybody that has experienced a loved one taking their own life, it's hard to imagine why they did.
- [61:50]
James Renner
Yep.
- [61:50]
Host 1
And it also, I mean, I don't think that it's so easily nailed down here. I mean, when we talk about her having some fear of this cruise and James, you did a great job of presenting, saying, you know, that, that it might. What does it, does it present to her the, the, that she may have known in advance she might not be coming back from this cruise, or what would it present to her while she's there and how should would she act on that? But it also could be not just suicide, but identity suicide of, you know, okay, well, I'm going to jump and if I survive, I'm Amy Bradley is going to be no longer and I'm going to start anew. But, but then it's like, okay, but then what? Yes, but then what? I've. She's never obviously done anything like this before. Most people never do anything like that before, do that at any time in their lives. And then it's, well, then what? Then, then what is the rest of that in for her? What is my next move?
- [62:55]
James Renner
That is the one thread of, of hope that, that I keep in this is that when she went over, which I do believe she did that exactly. That, that, that she survived, that she made a new life for herself. That's. I don't know that that's the most plausible, but it's, it's nice to think about. And yeah, it's, you know, oh, one thing that sort of stuff supports that is that the night before she disappeared, when she was dancing and hanging out with people, she did make a joke to somebody that when she saw the lights of Curacao, she was going to jump over and race the boat to shore.
- [63:42]
Host 1
When we have a story that has so many unanswered questions, I hate to really close the door on any possibility. And so really thinking about these possibilities and I think that a lot of them are still at play here. I would love to review the exact words from the FBI, because law enforcement, especially the FBI, are very particular in how they word things and how they choose to deliver a statement. And so if that statement is, we have nothing telling us that she left that room, that's not the same as saying we have 100% proof she did not leave that room.
- [64:25]
James Renner
Right.
- [64:26]
Host 1
And to leave that door a little open here. What were the actions of the FBI after they investigated that room and the scenario of that night and that morning, they went down and they interviewed Yellow. So that to me, those. I like to follow the actions of an investigation rather than the words of an investigation. And that action, to me, tells me that there was. There was reason for them to not completely close that door.
- [64:56]
James Renner
Okay. Yeah, I think that's fair. Yeah.
- [64:59]
Host 1
Well, congratulations on another great book here.
- [65:01]
James Renner
Thank you.
- [65:02]
Host 1
And this. I mean, this is just one in a long line. You become a. From our teenage boy days, meeting up on our BMX bikes in the garage. You've really become the prolific writer here.
- [65:14]
James Renner
Thank you.
- [65:15]
Host 1
For those that are not aware, I know our longtime listeners are aware of your great catalog, but you've had some really great books over the years. In fact, the one that was really our introduction to you, the Captain and I's introduction to you was your book about Amy Mihaljevic. She was a missing girl who then unfortunately was later found murdered, and her case is still ongoing. We recently discussed the GoFundMe page that was set up by the Mahalavik family that is to raise money for DNA work on her case that will be then given to Bay Village Police Department, who is choosing to keep the investigation and the DNA of that inhouse, which I think is probably the best move. You and I, and the captain knows this as well, but you and I have firsthand seen the success of using private labs.
- [66:14]
James Renner
Yes. Yeah.
- [66:15]
Host 1
And they always have a greater degree of success and higher percentage of success. So the Amy Holovich case, one of your first books is Amy. Also one that was absolutely brilliant was True Crime Addict and one.
- [66:29]
Host 2
And can I just interrupt you real quick? They're. They're only about sixteen hundred dollars away from their total goal of twenty thousand. So.
- [66:39]
James Renner
Nice.
- [66:40]
Host 2
Every. Every dollar helps.
- [66:42]
Host 1
Yes. And your other books are Scout Camp and Little Crazy Children, and I mean, you have some fiction works as well, and the Serial Killer's Apprentice. The list goes on and on. But to me, this one feels much more like Amy's book and like True Crime Addict, where it was not just not so much a story for you to tell and to present to the world, but you lived large portions of this and conducted in the investigation yourself and spent a good deal of time and money and effort to do so.
- [67:21]
James Renner
Yeah, it's. It's a mix of memoir and. And reporting, and I think some people, you know, the early reviews, either you. You like that or you really don't like that. So there is going to be some memoir, some stories about, about me and, and this investigation and what happened along the way including how I ended up on life support at one point due to stupid actions of my own. And there's a, you know, I visit with a medium at one point who tries to get in contact with, with Amy and there's some weird stuff that happens with that. Yeah, I like, I like mixing the memoir stuff in with, with what I do. Just it makes it a little different.
- [68:07]
Host 2
Yeah, it was weird because when you were on life support I was cheering Go into the light.
- [68:14]
James Renner
Go into the light.
- [68:16]
Host 2
You made it out.
- [68:17]
James Renner
You know what's, it's, what's funny is if you do get to, to that chapter they're one of the as I'm convinced that if I fall asleep again I'm going to die and I can't talk because the ventilator's in my mouth. I'm writing out instructions to my then wife and I write out Call Maggie. And I had this message that I had to get to our friend Maggie Freeling that I had a video that only she had that if I died I wanted her to release so that everybody would know what I've. I finally felt and had to say about the Maura Murray case.
- [68:57]
Host 2
Oh, I guess we'll never know.
- [69:00]
Host 1
Yeah, well, we've got that to look forward to.
- [69:02]
James Renner
Right? Right.
- [69:03]
Host 1
The. Here's something to look forward to. The book goes on sale July 28th. That's Tuesday, July 28th but you do not have to wait because I see that it is available for pre order on Amazon and you did us the service of reading the book to us. So it's also going to be available in audio form on audible.
- [69:26]
James Renner
Yes.
- [69:27]
Host 2
Well thank you so much for joining us here in the garage. James Runner.
- [69:32]
James Renner
Thanks. Thanks for having me. Thanks for the beer.
- [69:34]
Host 1
Cheers.
- [69:59]
James Renner
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