Double Death Investigation /// Part 1 /// 942

Summary

True Crime Garage: Double Death Investigation /// Part 1 /// 942 — Summary

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Nick and the Captain dive into the suspicious death of Grace Alexandra Holland, a complex and troubling case involving alleged abuse, a high-profile first responder, and a contentious investigation. The episode explores Grace's life, her tumultuous relationship, and the questionable handling of her death, scrutinizing the evidence, police response, and the aftermath.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background: Grace Holland and Her Relationships

• Grace’s Early Life: Grew up in a close-knit, lively family in St. Louis, with a twin sister (Laura) and older sister (Sarah). Described as bold, vibrant, and helpful.
• Career and Marriage: Joined Police Explorers in high school, later married police officer Christopher Kuhn; had four children.
• Post-Divorce Life: Divorced in 2016, co-parented amicably. Began dating Robert Dawes, a Maryland Heights fire captain from a respected family.

2. The Relationship with Robert Dawes

• Public Image vs. Private Reality: Outwardly, their relationship seemed solid—engaged in 2018 and moved into Robert’s Creve Coeur home.
• Allegations of Abuse: Grace’s family describes the relationship as controlling and abusive (psychologically, sometimes physically). Robert allegedly pressured Grace to quit her job and work for his father’s company, with her paychecks going directly to Robert ([08:21] Nick).
• Family’s Account: Her sister Laura often helped Grace leave Robert, describing the relationship as “cyclical” and “controlling.”
  • Quote: “I had taken Grace away from him four times. I moved her in and out of his house and he’d always come back.” — Laura (reported in discussion, [15:32])

3. Dynamics and Stressors

• Multiple Stressors: Renovating two properties, switching jobs, managing blended families, and engagement pressures added to the tension ([14:11] The Captain).
• COVID-19 Context: The volatility occurred amid 2020’s pandemic stressors, which shaped the work and home environments.

4. Strains, Arguments, and Pregnancies

• Text Messages: Communications illustrate an unstable relationship, alternating between rage and mundane conversation ([16:42] Nick).
  • Notable: “Please stop saying I should kill myself.” — Grace ([20:36] Nick)
  • Robert’s response: “I want you out of my life. Don’t ever contact me again.” ([24:14] Nick)
• Pregnancy & Miscarriage: Grace became pregnant, refused abortion despite Robert's alleged offer ($). Miscarried in July 2020; Robert called her “ridiculous and crazy.”
• Emotional Abuse: Robert’s texts frequently included hurtful or dismissive comments (e.g., “I don’t want this baby with you” [21:19] Nick).

5. Grace’s Death and Emergency Response

• Timeline:
  • July 21, 2020, 11:30pm: Final argument; Grace wants to try for another baby; Robert wants to end things.
  • July 22, 2020, 5:10am: Robert calls 911, reports Grace shot herself at their Fairways Circle home.
• Scene Description ([33:23] Nick):
  • Grace found on her back, hands on stomach, with a gun by her right hand (wearing pajamas).
  • Gunshot wound to the head; later reported as entry at left temple.
  • No suicide note found at the scene.
• Delayed Detective Arrival: Detectors arrived nearly two hours after initial first responders.
• Critical Oversights:
  • Neither Grace nor Robert was swabbed for gunshot residue ([35:31] Nick).
  • Grace’s hands weren't bagged; Robert’s possessions (clothes, cell phone) not immediately collected.

6. Contradictory Stories

• Shift in Robert’s Story ([38:47] Nick):
  • Initially: He was in the living room, then heard a shot from the bedroom.
  • Later: He was in the bedroom; Grace embraced him, said goodbye, then shot herself.
  • Both versions raise suspicions regarding blood spatter and gun residue.
• Physical Evidence Discrepancies:
  • Grace was right-handed, shot on the left temple ([42:24] Nick).
  • Blood pooled on the right side, which doesn’t match wound location.
  • Bruises found on Grace in autopsy.

7. Prior Mental Health History & Suicide Attempt

• Documented Struggles: Family acknowledges Grace’s struggle with depression and a previous suicide attempt (found by her sister Laura with a gun in-hand two months prior, [45:35] Captain). Incidents allegedly existed in her marriage with Kuhn as well.

8. Investigation Critique

• Lack of Thoroughness:
  • No immediate evidence collection, mishandled chain of custody issues, and over-reliance on Robert’s account (potentially due to his status as a first responder).
  • Nick: “This was terrible. They did not do a good job on this ... shame on them.” ([47:32]).
• Family’s Doubt: Holland family does not deny Grace’s mental health history but points to investigation shortcomings and possibility of foul play or culpable behavior.
• Delayed Confiscation of Robert’s Cell Phone (two weeks after death).

9. Aftermath: Lawsuits & Re-Examination

• Suicide Notes?: Two notes found after her death—one to her daughters, another to Robert; questions about their timing and authenticity ([51:00] The Captain).
• Ongoing Suspicion:
  • 2022: St. Louis County Police re-investigate at Creve Coeur police chief’s request; still considered a suspicious death.
  • 2023: Grace’s family files wrongful death suit against Robert, seeking access to withheld evidence and accountability for the investigation failures.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Control Dynamic:

  • “This was an abusive relationship, psychologically and even at times physically.” — Nick ([07:32])
  • “Robert pressured Grace to quit her job so she could work for his father’s company.” — Nick ([08:21])

• On the Investigation:

  • “What we can say that is a big, huge ... miscarriage of justice ... the detective made a choice...not to swab Grace or Robert for the gunshot residue.” — Nick ([37:52])
  • “When you sign up for this job, man ... you should be putting your feet...in the shoes of the victim.” — Nick ([48:07])

• Discussing Guilt and Responsibility:

  • “If she pulled the trigger, there’s somebody there that’s still alive that didn’t try to stop her. And that’s pathetic ... You’re supposed to serve and protect.” — The Captain ([53:38])
  • “He keeps ... adding fuel to the fire and controlling, verbally abusive, I think very manipulative. And there’s a responsibility there.” — The Captain ([56:46])

• Aftermath & New Investigation:

  • “In 2022, the St. Louis County Police department opened up an investigation to Grace Holland’s death...” — Nick ([56:55])
  • “Grace's family ... filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Robert.” — Nick ([58:50])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Grace’s Background, Marriage, and New Relationship: [04:30] – [09:39]
• Deteriorating Relationship, Family’s Perspective: [09:39] – [17:43]
• Arguments, Pregnancy, Alleged Abuse: [18:05] – [22:52]
• The Night of Grace’s Death: [23:09] – [25:09]
• Response, Scene Description & Police Handling: [31:38] – [36:06]
• Investigation Shortcomings: [35:31] – [41:00]
• Physical Evidence Discrepancies: [42:23] – [44:50]
• Family’s View, Mental Health History: [44:52] – [46:46]
• Post-Death Events, Lawsuit, and Re-Investigation: [56:55] – [59:22]

---

Tone and Approach

• The hosts maintain a critical but empathetic perspective, with Nick expressing deep frustration at investigative oversights and the larger system’s failures.
• The Captain brings candor and straightforwardness, questioning the motives and actions of both the deceased and Robert, while also recognizing complexities in mental health.
• Both hosts keep discussion informed, with moments of levity and “garage” banter, but underscore the seriousness of the case and its enduring ambiguity.

---

Closing

True Crime Garage concludes part one on a note of frustration at the lack of closure and the unsatisfactory investigation, with more revelations promised in the next segment. The case highlights issues of domestic violence, police bias or negligence, and the burden families bear seeking justice.

---

Next Episode Preview:
The closing remarks suggest the investigation isn’t over — hints of “another mysterious death” and more details to come in part two ([59:22]).

---

For Listeners:
If you or someone you know is struggling with domestic abuse or mental health, please seek support. This case, like many, underscores the importance of intervention, advocacy, and demanding accountability from institutions tasked to protect.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Adobe Firefly is the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video editing for today's creative process. Built for creators of every kind, Firefly helps you generate, edit and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller, the budgets aren't getting bigger, and the timelines, oh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly.

[Nick (Host)]

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thank you for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always. He's strange, but not a stranger. Here is the captain.

[The Captain]

Sometimes I lay on my arm just to pull off the stranger. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick (Host)]

Today we are drinking Lone pine West Coast IPA by Sawdust City Brewing Company. This one is bold and hoppy with four kinds of malt and four hop varieties including Summit, Simcoe, Columbus and Chinook hops ABV 6.5% garage grade 3 and 3. Four bottle caps out of five. And here is some thanks and some praise to our good friends for helping us fill up the old garage fridge. First up, a cheers to Luciana from

[The Captain]

Minnesota and a big we like your jib. And a tall cans in the air to Robin Jennings from Morseville, Pennsylvania.

[Nick (Host)]

Next up, a double fisted cheers to Danielle and Corbin from Melfi, Virginia. And last but certainly not least, we have Melissa and and Slidell, Louisiana. Everyone we just mentioned went to truecrimegarage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund. And for that we thank you.

[The Captain]

Yeah, BWR you and beer run. If you need more True Crime Garage for your earballs, check out our bonus content on Patreon or Apple podcast subscription. We had a special treat last weekend for all the beautiful off the record listeners and Colonel, that's enough of the B is nice.

[Nick (Host)]

All right, everybody, gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk true crime.

[911 Dispatcher]

What's going on? My fiance just shot herself. Your fiance just shot herself? Yeah. Okay, okay. It's a mortal wound. Okay, I'm a captain with the fire district with Maryland Heights. Okay, okay, let me connect you over to Central County. Okay, hang on one second. Sir, are you out in St. Charles or is that where she's at? This was Central to transfer. My fiance shot her head. She shot herself? She shot herself in the head. It's immortal. It's immortal injury. I'm captain, md height. She's okay, sir. I, I, yes, that's correct. I demonize.

[Nick (Host)]

Grace. Alexandra Holland grew up in the suburbs of St. Louis, Missouri, in a home that her family remembered as warm and loud in all of the best of ways, full of laughter and everyday closeness. She is one of three sisters. She has a twin. Her name is Laura. The two of them have an older sister named Sarah. In family stories, Grace is described as bold and vibrant, the kind of person who loved her family and did not hesitate to help. By high school, she joined the Police Explorers program. This is a youth program meant to build character, instill structure and youngsters and citizenship while exposing students to careers in law enforcement. It wasn't just a phase for her. This was her drawn to that type of structure and service and the idea of protecting other people. After she graduated from high school, Grace pursued a degree in criminal justice. In the early 2000s, she married a man named Christopher Kuhn. He would go on to become a police officer. Together they had four children. By all accounts, motherhood was something that she really embraced. She took pride in her kids and their personalities and the life that she was building for them and around them. In 2016, however, Grace and Chris would get a divorce. They separated. The divorce didn't erase their shared responsibility. They worked to co parent in a way that would keep their daughters grounded and stable, keep the family together. Not long after this divorce, Grace started dating a man named Robert Dawes. He is a firefighter with the Maryland Heights Fire Department. He's described as somebody who was popular, well liked, he was successful, driving a Porsche and in the community, his family name. The Dawes family name did seem to carry some weight. Robert's brother was a police officer and their father, Robert Dawes Sr. Was the fire captain prior to Robert eventually taking his son, eventually taking over that role for Marilyn Heights. And to Grace, Robert she described as someone who was confident and self assured. And Robert was no stranger to family. He had a son. And as their relationship deepened, Grace moved into Robert's home in Creve Core. Everything seemed to be going great. Like great enough to the point that in 2018, the two of them got engaged.

[The Captain]

Yeah, sometimes that's the sign of things going great and sometimes that's a Hail Mary.

[Nick (Host)]

But the story that follows is not the fairy tale that it appeared to be. What Grace's family says was happening behind closed doors was truly in anything but right. Grace's family would later insist that the relationship was not just like a rocky relationship. This was. This was an abusive relationship psychologically and even at times physically. They described Robert Dawes as Controlling and domineering. And someone who wanted to control Grace's life. Someone who wanted authority over her choices, her money, and her movement, which is

[The Captain]

interesting because he's authority of authority figures he's accustomed to. Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Such, according to the Holland family, Robert pressured Grace to quit her job so that she could work for his father's company. And I'm uncertain what this company was, but it sounds like, again, this is according to her family. We know that there are oftentimes two sides to every coin and multiple sides to every argument.

[The Captain]

I think they sold manure and I hate manure.

[Nick (Host)]

This statement here, though, Captain, was that that somehow, according to Grace's family, that her paychecks would go directly to Robert.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Now, I. I want to point. This sounds when, when you describe it, when it's described this way, and this is how it is described in every report that I could find. This sounds like something like, holy hell, you know, what's going on here. But I also wonder if this could be something as simple as a joint checking account and direct deposit into that joint account. And then behind closed doors, he seems to be controlling and pulling the strings on what is allowed and not allowed, as far as activity with this account goes.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

Or is it possible that the business is doing it this way for some kind of weird tax loop or something?

[Nick (Host)]

That could be. In January of 2020, Grace and Robert bought a new house together on Conway Road. It's reported that the deed was in Robert's name only. Grace reportedly spent months renovating and decorating, trying to turn that property into, I'm guessing, like their dream home. Instead, the house seemed to become another source of tension. Now, before we move on, one thing we have to make clear here is that while they bought this new home and they're doing a lot of work to it to renovate this new home, they still own the previous home and they are still staying in that previous home as well. So keep, keep in mind, we got two homes, two houses here. this point on our timeline in the story, Grace's twin sister, Laura, would later describe the relationship as cyclical. So it's like this repetitive, ongoing volatility here where they fight, they break up, Grace leaves, and then she says, the twin sister says Grace gets pulled back into the relationship.

[The Captain]

But some people enjoy that. I've never enjoyed that, but I do know some, some people that it might take them a while to omit to that, but they feel like it's almost evidence of passion.

[Nick (Host)]

Yes. And don't hear what we're not Saying we're not saying that we know that Grace enjoyed this, but.

[911 Dispatcher]

No.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, I'm just saying some people do from personal experience. I'm with you, my friend. There are people that seem to. That I've met in my lifetime that seem to always carry a lot of drama around them.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

To the point where you. Where I've eventually distanced myself from them because it's. It's almost like, do you enjoy the drama? Because you seem to be inviting a lot of it into your life at times.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And it gets difficult because especially when you're coming from a broken relationship, you created a broken home. And so I think sometimes people then hang on to relationships longer than maybe they should. But also, I think it's interesting too, whether it's a controlling mechanism. I've seen that in relationships as well. In today's economy, it's helpful to have dual income, and I understand that she had an income. But to convince your partner to give up their career for just a job, I've seen that happen with friends of mine where it's like, it's almost a controlling mechanism to go, well, I make more money and so I get to control more of the decisions. And you just stay at home, I'll take care of everything.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, and let's point this out too, because one thing that I think gets lost in the sauce, or could get lost in the sauce here in this story is the critical points in our timeline, at least as I see it, all are taking place during the COVID year. And again, I don't know what her position was or what Robert Dawes's father's company, what their business was. But what we can surmise is this, what would be going, there's going to be shutdown this during this 2020 year. Obviously, Robert Dawes being a fire captain, his job is essential, so he's still going to be going to work. I can't speak as to what Grace's complete situation was here. And I want to expand on not speaking for Grace here because in, in a short period of time, in 2020, they have this home, they're working on this home together. But Grace is going to leave this world. She's going to die in 2020. And what we don't have, obviously, is Grace speaking, who can tell the story and speak for herself. We also don't have Robert, her fiance, who seems to speak for her at any point at all. So we must, in my opinion, champion Grace's family for continuing to tell this story and speak out as to what Their perspective is on what was going on during this time.

[The Captain]

One, just real quick, the. There's so many stressors here. You have multiple properties. You're trying to do a renovation on one of the properties. So that's a lot of money, a lot of decisions, a lot of timeline issues. You're then switching your job, you're trying to maintain this relationship. I understand that they're engaged, but when you get engaged, that can be stressful. Now we're going to get married and now we got to plan that out and how much is that going to cost? They're both parents. That comes with stressors. They have to deal with their ex spouses. There's a lot going on. And at the same time it seems as if they're trying to get pregnant as well.

[Nick (Host)]

And some of their communications between Grace and Robert will become public at some point. And so we, we can analyze those and we have taken a look at those. And I can tell you, my friends, I don't know and cannot speak to what the relationship was like before the engagement. But this engagement did not appear to be a happy one at all. And in speaking for her sister, Laura told the US sun that she had personally helped Grace to get away from Robert multiple times during these breakups, saying, quote, I had taken Grace away from him four times. I moved her in and out of his house and he'd always come back. It was this controlling relationship.

[The Captain]

Yeah. This is a very difficult case to discuss and it's very fascinating. And the more I was diving into it, the more I wondered why people didn't talk about it because it is so fascinating. But then you kind of see why people might not kind of see why people don't want to touch this one with a ten foot pole.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. And part of the, the really troubling and difficulty for me here, Captain, was what I could see in the communications. I could see between the two of them. It almost appeared to me like he's pushing her away and then she continually goes back.

[The Captain]

Yeah, it's weird because the sister seems to be like he came crawling back. But again it's, it's a tough situation because whether you come from a broken home, your parents got divorced or you got a divorce yourself, that can play into your, your emotional health and your mental health on whether you stay in a relationship or not.

[Nick (Host)]

Over the course of their four year relationship, according to her family, Grace reportedly documented multiple incidents of physical abuse and verbal abuse by recording conversations and photographing bruises. By the spring of 2020, their text messages, which as we said would later become public or at least portions of them painted a portrait of a relationship that was unraveling in slow motion. And what's weird about these text messages here, Captain? It's, it's like arguing, rage, almost hate for one another at times. And then followed by like normal regular relationship conversations. Right. Like errands, things that we need to purchase for the home, the renovation project. It, it was a really, I say a balance between the two, but it's such an abnormal balance that it's, it seems unbalanced. It seems very strange to me.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

This whole situation, strange. And I think, I think she was dealing with again, maybe some emotional maturity, but also just mental health issues before she enters the relationship. That makes you wonder if this person is controlling, if this person is physically and verbally abusive. Well, that's maybe why he picked her.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. The ones I reviewed, we have things like, I saw things like Grace saying that, you know, she wanted to get married, wanted to continue the relationship. And then Robert, the complete opposite of that, almost saying hateful things like I don't like you. I, I want you to leave. I don't like your children.

[The Captain]

Yeah, he's a bit of a douche.

[Nick (Host)]

Grace at some point learns that she is pregnant. I'm going to use a word here that I think is necessary. Allegedly, according to some, he offered her money for an abortion.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Now what is not alleged is that it seems clear that she refused this idea or that or that she was wanted a baby and wanted marriage. From the record, here is a text to Grace that from Robert that I think would explain his stance on the matter. Quote, get out of my house. I don't want to be married, I don't want a baby. End quote.

[The Captain]

Well, you shouldn't have proposed then. And you shouldn't have sex with somebody that you don't want to have a child with.

[Nick (Host)]

And as said then these messages would flip back to ordinary life, talking about the new house and purchases that they needed to make things of that nature. Like, like the relationship was constantly trying to pretend to be normal.

[The Captain]

Yeah. But I also wonder too, with his position, some of these text messages, again, like I said, he comes off like a douchebag. But what is he saying when it's not being recorded?

[Nick (Host)]

Right. And when he's not typing it out.

[The Captain]

Right. Because there's especially somebody in his position. I understand he's in, he's a firefighter and so that's different than being a police officer. But they're friends.

[Nick (Host)]

Also a high ranking fire.

[The Captain]

Right. And so it could be a situation if he sends her such abusive text messages. And I think these are signs of abusive text messages or at least hateful text messages.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

But like I said, somebody in his position, this guy's not a dummy. Maybe his thought is, I'm not going to put this, the most hateful stuff on record.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. And we unfortunately have seen too much of this type of volatility here in relationships that ends up in a bad way. A really bad way here in the garage.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Let's go to July 1, 2020. A text exchange captured a moment that would later haunt Grace's family. Grace wrote, quote, please stop saying I should kill myself, end quote. Robert responded with a message. You asked me and I do not want to marry you and I do not want this baby with you. I get it. Maybe he's trying to break up with her and she won't let the relationship end. I don't know. I'm not going to pretend to be there, but the, the, the choice of, of baby with you rather than I don't want this baby seems like, like you're piling on a little bit. Right. Like it's.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

He's not like I've seen some of the other text message and he messages and he does say I don't want a baby or I don't want another baby. But in this particular one, I found it to be a little piling on. It's like, I don't want this baby with you.

[The Captain]

Yeah. My. I have so many issues with this. I understand he has a kid and I understand that she has kids. And so maybe that's not something he wants to add to their life. Okay, I get that. Then don't have unprotected sex with her. Don't have sex with somebody that you clearly know is trying to have a, a child with you. I mean, it would be a whole different situation if she somehow like duped him.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

But it's like be. Hold yourself a little bit accountable for your actions.

[Nick (Host)]

Could somebody here be an adult? Because you, you do have a scenario where most people don't have an this advantage. You have two living quarters. Right. Maybe somebody should go live in one of the other homes.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And, but again that I don't think this is a sign of actually. What, again, what is he telling her behind closed doors? Again, it could be more abusive and it could also be more love bombing.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

And it could be manipulative. And so in the moment. Oh yeah. I, I want to be with you. Let's have Sex. Then right afterwards, I don't want a baby with you.

[Nick (Host)]

This. I mean, you're stepping on exactly what my. My suspicions were here. It's like, okay, this is the portion that we get to see that made its way to the public. What. What all is going on that we didn't see.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And didn't get the chance to review. Grace accused Robert of telling her to get a gun out of the nightstand. Robert replied, saying that she was delusional. In the weeks that followed, the messages reportedly grew more disturbing. They seemed to argue about everything. Grace not working. Accusations about suspicions of secret relationships. Grace begged him to stay. Robert lashed out. When Grace lost the pregnancy in mid July of 2020, Robert allegedly called her ridiculous and crazy. Grace called him cruel and selfish. By the end of those months, what emerged from the record described by her family is not a couple having occasional fights. It's a pair locked in something toxic and escalating. So let's fast forward a couple weeks here, Captain. We'll go to July 21, 2020 Grayson. Robert went to the new house on Conway Drive at 11:30pm Robert texted Grace that he was leaving. It appears Grace wanted to try for another baby. Robert refused. And then that dispute ignited another angry thread of text. Robert accused her of ruining the evening and wrote, quote, I want you out of my life. Don't ever contact me again. Shortly before 4am on July 22, 2020, Grace texted again asking where he was. She begged him to come back. He replied, I want nothing to do with you. And then about an hour later. So this would be roughly about 5:10am Robert called 911 from the house on Fairways Circle. Remember, they got two houses. On the call, he told the dispatcher that his fiance had shot herself.

[The Captain]

Yeah, I think he called it a fatal wound or something like that.

[Nick (Host)]

The first responders from the Creve Corps Fire Department arrived at the home on Fairway Circle and found Grace Holland on the bedroom floor with a gunshot W wound to her head. And she was pronounced dead at the scene. IXL keeps it fresh all summer long. Without regular practice, kids can lose momentum over summer break. IXL helps students stay sharp and confident so they're ready for the next school year. IXL is an award winning online learning platform that helps kids truly understand what they're learning, whether they're building math confidence, strengthening reading and writing skills, or reviewing science concepts. IXL is used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US and studies show kids who use IXL score higher on tests proven in all 50 states. I have friends and family that use and love ixl. Why? Because it matters and they see a big difference. With IXL you get instant feedback with clear explanations. Everything's organized by grade level and skill level. Plus it's easy to track your child's progress and they have flexible summer schedules. They work around your kids summer schedule and in fact summer might be one of the best times of year to use IXL make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now and True Crime Garage listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com garage visit ixl.com garage to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. So many people are focused on where their money is today. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. And with the Acorns potential screen you can find out what your money is capable of. Acorns is easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com garage or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns and Tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customers accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Garage Chime is banking built for you, not the 1%. They have thousands of fee free ATMs because why pay to get your own money? Plus with a Chime card, get travel perks like airport lounge access and 5% cash back on things like gas or groceries. Upgrade to America's number one choice for banking with a Chime checking account. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.comgarage that is chime.comgarage. it only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services for Chime Card provided by Chime's bank Partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated cash Back for Chime prime only. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking Based on a J.D. power survey published October 20, 2025 for more information on travel perks, go to Chime.com disclosures when it comes to your wireless bill, transparency is everything. That's why Mint Mobile's wireless plans have no gimmicks and no gotchas. Just high speed data and reliable coverage on the T Mobile 5G network. And right now all plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. I love Mint Mobile. I've said it before, I will say it again. I get the same great service that I used to get and in some cases it's even better for less money. With Mint Mobile, same great service that I got with the big boys. What I'm not getting now is a big bill, a big payment. I'm saving money and I've doubled the gigs on my hotspot. To get your new wireless Plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com tcg that's mintmobile.com tcg Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com tcg that'S it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabytes hotspot capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com,

[The Captain]

All right, we are back to the windows, to the walls, tall cans in the air. Cheers to you Colonel.

[Nick (Host)]

Cheers to you Captain. Now this is going to be a detail that is going to obviously fuel definitely more suspicion than anger, but fuel both. So what we have here, remember that call went in about 5:10am and detectives did not arrive on the scene until about 7am so roughly two hours after the initial response. Now that does that's the way that it's always reported. I want to be clear here because sometimes we have to try to read between the lines and if we are going to look at all of these reports with a suspicious eye and suspicious mind, I think we need to look at all of them with a suspicious eye and suspicious mind. While it sounds really terrible that detectives did not arrive on the scene until 7am, that is not to say with 100% certainty that there were not police officers right on the scene for that two hours. Now it would be important to get a detective there asap. This is A smaller community. I do not know how many men and women make up their detective bureau. So that could be part of the delay. The detective could have been at another scene somewhere. The detectives, you know, calling them in determining if a detective needs to be there. I don't love that there's two hours here. I think that we would have a better and clearer understanding if that did not take place. But nevertheless, that is the situation.

[The Captain]

Well, when he calls this in, you'd think that they would also know who's calling this in. And so maybe there would be some more urgency because of his position.

[Nick (Host)]

At 7:25am the detective on the scene contacted the medical examiner's office. According to the medical examiner's report, the detective relayed the story that Robert had told him at the scene. In that version, Robert said he had been in the living room with Grace, who came in and gave him a hug. And then she goes into the bedroom and when she's in there, he says that he heard a single gunshot. So he gets up and runs to the bedroom saying that he finds her dead, calls 911 and waited for emergency personnel to arrive. Now the detective describes what he finds as Grace lying on her back, hands across her stomach. She's wearing pajamas or, you know, pajama pants and a T shirt. There's a handgun on the floor near her right hand. And the detective says that he observed a small circular defect on the right side of her head, but that he did not move or manipulate the body in any manner at all. She's dead on the scene. He, he, he doesn't need to do so. He's calling in the medical examiner.

[911 Dispatcher]

Her.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Later that morning, when the detective did call the. The medical examiner, he is now reporting that he observed another circular defect or wound on the left side of Grace's head. So when making this call, he's now reporting this additional possible injury. No suicide note was found in the home at that time. Still, the atmosphere of the scene, the death appeared, at least according to the responding detective, to be self inflicted. And so of course, the detective took the gun, took Grace's cell phone into evidence and closed the crime scene. Now, what the detective did not do, and this really is going to mess up this whole story, the detective did not swab Grace, did not swab Robert for gunshot residue.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

It did not bag Grace's hands. This is all. I don't care how small your department is. This is all standard procedure in 2020.

[The Captain]

Yeah, and I think the big problem here is it's a first responder showing up to this horrific scene where there's another first responder. And so I think he took the words of Robert way more serious and literal and, and almost like, okay, I believe what he's saying because I'm a first responder. Showing up to another emergency with a first responder.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah, there. Here's the thing that I think is missing from the story and that I could not find. And if any listeners out there find this, this would be interesting to review. This relationship seems so volatile in up and down and angry and loud. I had wondered had they. Had they shown up to the home before? Had they responded to anything prior?

[The Captain]

Yeah, I, I know that they have responded to situations that she had with her ex husband, which was also a police officer. But I, I wonder if because of the abusive nature or the controlling nature, maybe that was. If this happens, if you're going to call the cops on me, that, that will be the ultimate death of this relationship.

[Nick (Host)]

Right. And we've seen this in other cases, too. Right or wrong? Right or wrong. Did those prior interactions with police and her from the previous relationship, did they, did that agency already start to form an opinion of this woman?

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

But regardless of opinions, opinions don't matter. Right. Opinion in an investigation, and this should be a thorough death investigation. Opinions don't matter as much as truths, as evidence, as factual information would hold up. And what we can say that is a big, huge, I say misstep, but also miscarriage of justice. Because I think this is one of the things that really prevents us from having a clear understanding and conclusion into Grace's death. That they, the detective, made a choice.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Made a choice, I believe made a choice not to swab Grace or Robert for the gunshot residue. Also did decide to collect the gun and Grace's phone and some other items. But as the report goes, Captain did not collect any of Robert's belongings. His clothing, his cell phone.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

And this is why it's so important because. Okay. Is he telling us the truth? Well, if there's gun residue on her hands, okay, then maybe she pulled the trigger. But if there's gun residue on him, then his story is not telling you the truth. And then also just the physical differences. Is it possible that he's holding her hand and shooting her at the same time? But again, if there's any gun residue on him, it doesn't line up with the story he's telling us.

[Nick (Host)]

The other part of this that, that I don't love is that I couldn't find a lot of information about any of the blood spatter, Regardless of who pulled the trigger, there's going to be blood spatter and where that is in that room and. And where it falls. What we do know is this. We know that Robert would provide a written statement. And in this written statement to police, his account shifts from what the detective says that he was told when he arrives on the scene. So in this version, he, Robert says that he was in the bedroom, not in the living room, and that he was standing by his closet preparing to go to work. And he says that Grace moved to his side and kind of puts her face up towards his and says goodbye. And he says that's when he heard the shot and Grace fell to the floor.

[The Captain]

Yeah. Meaning she's holding him while she shoots herself.

[Nick (Host)]

So if this version is the truthful version, then he back to the blood spatter.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Right.

[Nick (Host)]

It should be on him. There should be some blood on him.

[The Captain]

And again, collect that evidence. Because if there's not blood spatter on him and he shifts his story to this, then you go, well, why isn't there? And did he clean up? And if he cleaned up this, then what else could he have cleaned up?

[Nick (Host)]

And we are raising good questions here. And I can say from what I found, there doesn't seem to be any real evidentiary follow through.

[The Captain]

Did they ask him to take a polygraph test?

[Nick (Host)]

If they did, that information did not make its way to me.

[The Captain]

Yeah, because I, I couldn't find that. I, I searched and because like you said, he gave a statement, but the statement seems a little bit different. But then you go, it. Did the statement shift or. Because we see incompetencies in this detective. So is it possible that the story just never shifted?

[Nick (Host)]

That it was incomplete?

[The Captain]

Yeah. Or he tells the story to the detective and he doesn't take proper notes and then they go, what are they going to do? Point the finger at him? Because now we don't know if his story shifted or if the incompetent detective just didn't take down the story correctly.

[Nick (Host)]

The autopsy concluded that the bullet entered through her left temple. Toxicology found alcohol in her system. She was twice the legal limit for being intoxicated. Her death was ruled a suicide. The case closed. Now, it might be close for law enforcement, but for Grace's family, this is really the beginning of their fight and their portion of the story where they're trying to prove that. A couple of things here, like, okay, we have two different stories from Robert and they are really what they are hearing and what they are learning. The Holland family Has serious doubt about a lot of this. And their doubt is not based on a single detail. It's the accumulation of details. Right. The body, the gun and the. And the bruises. So later there was found the bruising that was found on her body. Yeah, so they question a lot of things here. They question the position of Grace's body. She was found lying on her back, hands resting across her stomach. And they didn't. Their statement is they don't believe that this resembles a natural collapse after a gunshot wound to the head. They question the weapon placement. Right. She was shot in the left temple, but she was right handed.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And look, it's not impossible for somebody to use their non dominant hand to fire a gun. But I was thinking about this when I was reading through this here. As a gun owner, I have four guns. I've never shot a single one of them with my left hand. Not that I couldn't. You know, sports and other activities. I will regularly use both hands. But in thinking of it at this moment, I've never fired a gun with my left hand and. But I've never been positioned in the way that if she did take her own life, she would have been positioned.

[The Captain]

I also think the difficult thing is when you show up to the scene and you're the detective and you can't clearly state which hand she used based on how the gun was placed or not placed or quote unquote fell, you can't tell by the wounds what happened. Then you make sure that you collect all the evidence because would she have the. The gun residue on her right hand or her left hand? That would tell us again how much of the story is truthful coming from Robert.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, and as you said earlier, Robert's not an idiot. So if given the opportunity to change his story, as some would suggest, why didn't he say that he moved the gun after he found her? So again, shot in the left temple, but she was right handed. They also questioned the blood found at the scene, stating that the blood was on the right side. Blood was found on the right side of her head or large pool of blood found near the right side of Grace's head. Again, bruises found on her body. Those were found during the autopsy. They believe the scene needed to be processed like a potential homicide until it could be excluded, not treated as a suicide from the start as how they saw it. And again, when it's called in to 91 1, he calls it in as a self inflicted gunshot or that she took her own life, it's easy to presume that maybe that's how they treated it. As. As soon as they showed up, as soon as the law enforcement walked into that door, that they're responding to that call. And that seems to be how they treated it. We've said plenty of times, right, that it's. I'm showing up at a death scene, it's a homicide until it's not. This is a homicide investigation. Until we can figure out that the deceased died by some other manner, I'm

[The Captain]

also arresting him and putting him in my car.

[Nick (Host)]

Well, and this is where things get even more tricky here, because Grace's family does not deny that Grace struggled with depression. They openly say she struggled with depression, and they did not deny that she had attempted suicide prior. In fact, what the reports state here, Captain, is that two months before Grace's death, when she wasn't responding to calls, urgent calls from her family, her twin sister Laura and her then boyfriend had to break into the house on Fairways Circle. And inside they found Grace crying in a bathroom, hunched over with a gun in her hand.

[The Captain]

Yeah, they have a. They have a recording of this as well that you could find online and listen to if you feel the need to.

[Nick (Host)]

They feel, or at least from their statements, I believe that they feel the family. Grace's family feels that. That moment, that when they. When she's found in the bathroom with the gun in her hand, that that proved two things, that she needed help and that she was in danger.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And also, we should be clear there, there's reports of this with her last relationship. So again, if there was somebody fighting in the relationship and then at times where it seemed like it wasn't going to get resolved, it was almost like she was threatening this. Again, I've been through all this. I've been in the situation that she's been in. And so I. That's why I struggle with this whole thing. And there's a lot of people that deal with mental health issues, but they are not suicidal until the relationship or some situation that they're in is crumbling or collapsing. And it doesn't seem like it's going to reconnect itself.

[Nick (Host)]

And I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know who's responsible. I. I see a lot of things that are suggestive that she may have. Taking her own life. I see a lot of hurtful and hateful words and statements coming from Robert, who was the only other person there. What I can conclude and agree with 100% here is what the family would say after her death, is that they Found the investigation to be shoddy, incomplete. And they worry that that might have been influenced by Robert's status and his connections. Now, I don't know what influenced the incompleteness and the bad job done by the detective.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And the police department, but I will agree this was. This was terrible. They did not do a good job on this, responding to this call at all. And shame on them. Shame on them, regardless what happened or what led them to responding to that house that night. But when you sign up for this job, man, when you take that oath, you. You take that oath with the understanding that you should be stepping. You should be putting your feet. Who was it? Lou Smith. That said you need to put your feet in the shoes of the victim.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

Regardless of how this person ended up dead, you need to put your feet in her shoes and. And conduct your investigation like it's the President of the United States, like it's your loved one, like it's your sister, like it's your brother, like it's your daughter or your son. Not some lazy ass job.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

That either this is a guy turning, turning a blind eye or just being really bad at his job.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And I think this is difficult because the family's argument, I think, is valid. They go, well, if you would have done your job correctly, we would have got better answers. Okay. But then let's just assume that you didn't do your job correctly, but your findings are correct. She took her own life. Okay. Now which story is it? Is it the first.

[Nick (Host)]

First story Robert told.

[The Captain]

Is it the second story he told? But also there's constant verbal abuse. There's detachment or trying to detach from the situation, not taking responsibility for himself. You have a family that goes, we think there's some physical abuse. We think there's mental abuse. We think there's some controlling issues. So, okay, she killed herself, but he can still be responsible for that.

[Nick (Host)]

I also wonder too, like with him. So his cell phone, Robert's cell phone was eventually collected, but this wasn't until two weeks after Grace's death.

[The Captain]

Right. So who knows what happened?

[Nick (Host)]

I'm hoping that the chief chewed out this detective behind closed doors, because the detective obviously went back and collected the cell phone for a reason. Seemed like he had no interest in doing it that night. So maybe somebody had to instruct him. Hope that he was instructed that. There are plenty of open positions still on traffic patrol and bicycle cop. We can downgrade your position at any time. But I wonder with. With his position being a fire captain, I could understand a speed bump in the investigation regarding his cell phone. If in fact that was his cell phone that was provided to him because he's on call. Right. He himself is emergency personnel. He, he would be somebody who's on call 24 7. And maybe that cell phone is provided to him and maybe it's a speed bump because he can't so willy nilly turn it over to people because they need, the department needs to get access to him at a moment's notice. But at the same time, here's an idea. Any of these cell phones that are provided through taxpayer dollars to these agencies to give to their staff and personnel when we have a situation like this, I think it's fair that if the, that if that personal, if that person is not paying for that cell phone, then that's not a matter of private record to me. That could be a matter of public record is the way I see it.

[The Captain]

Exactly. And even though the family was, I think, underwhelmed by the investigation, there was more stuff that came out. We at the time, there's no suicide notes. But then we're going to see two notes that I think you could argue are suicide notes. One to her daughters and one to Robert himself. And there's some speculation on who wrote those. I think there's some evidence that proves that she did. But again, we have these arguments on again, off again. We have this issue where her sister had to basically break in to save her. So were those notes written before the, the final attempt or were they, or were these notes. Yeah, prior notes. And then also he said that he

[Nick (Host)]

found him in his brief case. Correct. That he found him later after.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And he also submits some photos because there's a photo of her holding a gun to her head and.

[Nick (Host)]

Which is beyond bizarre to me.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And you can see it with your own eyes. So you go, well, I guess that's some form of evidence. And she's holding it with her left hand where she would basically be pulling the trigger with her thumb. So that's all odd, but it's also just odd that this photo exists. And I just want to put it past the way this guy operates and the way he treats women to go, he forced her to take this photo.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. And I want to be clear about something here, that this case is incredibly difficult to research and present because the sources that are out there seem to lean heavy one way or another. And a lot of them lean heavy toward there being some wrongdoing in staging the scene.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick (Host)]

And I, I, you hear the anger in my Voice and what I'm saying here today in the garage, I'm more angered that the investigation wasn't thorough and conducted properly rather than being angry at Robert or angry at Grace because I sit here and tell you I don't know what happened that night. I don't know who pulled the trigger that night. I don't like the evidence or the scene or the reports of such enough to. To have a great conclusion other than I think that. That this police department did a terrible job.

[The Captain]

Yeah. But if she pulled the trigger, there's somebody there that's still alive that didn't try to stop her. And it's. That's pathetic because here's somebody that you're in a relationship with. Here's somebody that you were willing to have sex with whenever that made sense for you. And because of your job, you're the chief of the firefighters. You. You're supposed to serve and protect. But I think this guy is very low character, if character at all.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah. Some problems with that. The one he. I mean, neither account does he ever see a gun or know that she has a gun in her possession. But to. To what you're saying here is his position and his understanding and somebody that's being. That's a person who is regularly responding to emergencies and crisis. He knows better than to even have a gun in that home or in either home.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Home.

[Nick (Host)]

Yeah, I. There should not have been a gun in. In their home.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

But also when you have a situation where a family members having a bust down the door to try to stop their family member from taking their own life, if you really cared about her or you cared about her family or, or just cared about yourself at that moment, you go, hey, this is not a healthy situation and you, you need to get help and I will be there for you as a friend or whatever, but this relationship can't go any further. But after these previous attempts and you know, he's. He's Tell. Look, he's telling other people and, and he is basically going, hey, she's. She's losing her mind and she's emotional and she's all this stuff. Okay, what did you do to help with that? You did nothing, right? All you did was kept throwing fuel onto the fire. So I think, look, and there's. We have other cases where a girl's on the phone with a guy and he wants to take his own life and she kind of helps him through that. She gets charged criminally. And so we don't know what was said leading up to this. And Again, when you're. When your story shifts and they don't cross the t's and dot their I's, we don't know what other parts of the story don't make sense. So as he's sitting in the room with her and telling her, hey, yep, you'd be better off. I mean, in one of the suicide notes to him, she basically is like, yeah, you're probably right. The world would be better off and I'd be better off to kill myself, essentially, is what she's implying in the letter. So is he sitting there going, yeah, take this gun, pull the trigger. Yeah, the world would be a better place. We're never going to be together. You know, whatever he's saying, like, we don't know. And even if he's not, he keeps, again, adding fuel to the fire and controlling, verbally abusive, I think very manipulative. And there's a responsibility there.

[Nick (Host)]

In 2022, the St. Louis County Police department opened up an investigation to grace holland's death at the request of the creve corps police chief. So kudos to the police chief for turning it over to a bigger agency. St. Louis County Police department would simply say that the case is still classified as a suspicious death and remains active. Their findings, whatever they were, were turned over to the St. Louis County Prosecuting attorney's office. This to determine whether further action would be taken. From my understanding, after that, the. The public record at least, is described by grace's family. Everything went quiet. There was no public explanation that satisfied the people who had been pushing for an explanation. In 2023, Grace's family filed a wrongful death lawsuit against Robert. The family told the u. S son they hoped the lawsuit would help them access evidence into what they say is Robert being responsible for grace's death. Again, it's the gunpowder residue, I think, could have cleared a lot of this up for. For us, if the initial investigation had been conducted properly. This would clear a lot of things up for us. I do think we would have a better understanding as to what happened. And I do want to point this out. While I've been very critical of one man's actions, the responding detective. I want to be clear here that the police chief did the right thing by turning it over to the St. Louis County Police department. And I will speak of that agency and say I've had interactions with members of that Police Department, of St. Louis County Police department over the years. We have had help from them on cases that we've covered here in the garage, and I found them to be very thorough, very good at what they do. The officers and detectives that we've talked to, some of them now retired. I find them to be great at their jobs and people that stick with it and do work very hard for. For the victims and for the citizens of their jurisdiction.

[The Captain]

Same boyfriend, same fiance. Another mysterious death. So much more to get to stick around. Join us here in the garage. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't.

[911 Dispatcher]

Sam.

[The Captain]

Sat.