Host (8:21)

Well, this is 1983. This is a time period where you go to work after dinner. Things start shutting down in the family. Who are these victims? Their kids, the first one and the Danny case you go. Maybe it's just a one off, but now with Christopher, the threat level goes to midnight, right?

Co-host (8:44)

Yeah. The sheriff's office alerted their law enforcement partners. This, of course, including the FBI. Now, remember, we already have agents working the Eberly homicide case. They're going to quickly pivot and now also get focused in on the Christopher Walden disappearance. The entire Omaha FBI office was called into action to work alongside other agencies.

Host (9:12)

Right.

Co-host (9:12)

All with the same urgent hope. Find Chris alive and bring him home. From retired FBI agent Harry Trimbias book, this is titled My Life as an FBI special Agent. From his Dark Places series, this is book two murders, Motors, the Mob, and the Money. He says how we work a missing child case. It's working three paths all at once. Now, keep in mind, we've reviewed, unfortunately, a lot of missing child cases here.

Host (9:46)

Right.

Co-host (9:47)

And they've all been investigated to slightly different degrees and strategies. But what he's saying in his book is that when given the opportunity and the right amount of resources and people power, then this is the way that you should work a missing child case. He says it's working three pathways all at once. And he says in any child disappearance, law enforcement can't afford tunnel vision. From the first moments, investigators have to move in three directions all at the same time. So three points of focus that could tear you in three different directions. Be prepared to act on all of this. He says One is the inner circle. Identify and scrutinize those closest to the child who had access, who last saw the child, who might know what really happened. Two, work the runaway scenario. Determine whether the child left voluntarily due to trouble at home, at school, or in other relationships. Three, work the abduction angle. So abduction by a neighbor or stranger. Consider the possibility that the child was taken most commonly for sexual reasons and more rarely for ransom. At the start, he says, these possibilities are treated as equal concerns. That means overwhelming resources must hit the scene immediately because speed is everything. And we all know the brutal statistics that have been bandied about on this show over the years. The first three hours of a child abduction investigation are critical. When a child is abducted by somebody outside the circle of family and friends and the child is killed within the first three hours in 75% of such cases.

Host (11:45)

Well, I think these are difficult, too, for law enforcement, because you need to work these cases as separate. You don't have to. If you solve one, that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to solve the other. But there's so many similarities. I mean, these events are happening three Months apart at same hour of the day. And similar victims, young boys, I mean, they're what, a year apart? Danny's 13. Chris is 12. So I think there would be, especially in law enforcement, to go, do we work these separate? Do we work these collectively?

Co-host (12:28)

Well, and one advantage you're going, and I hate to use that term here in such a case, it's shocking and heartbreaking all at the same time. But one advantage that you might have is, as we said, there were seasoned FBI agents that were working the Danny Joe Eberly case. You've already pointed out how similar they are. We'll get into the nature of each and comparison of the two. But one advantage you have is if they are connected, you have already worked portions of the Eberly case that might speed your investigation in similar directions or different based off of what you learned or mistakes that, you know, you made during the course of that investigation. The other thing, too, is when you bring in an agent, so you're bringing in a bunch of agents from the Omaha office here. And as said, what Agent Trim Bias says in his book is that everybody was brought in to search for the boy because the biggest fear immediately was, oh, my God, we're going to end up with, if we don't find this kid, we're going to end up with the same result in the last case. And in the last case, it's not, of course, it's the murdered kid, but it's beyond that. It's a. We have a murder child and we don't know who the offender is. Keep in mind, Ressler did say with, with his mind hunter. Robert Ressler said when he reviewed the Eberly case, he really thought that the killer would strike again. And you have to be wondering, everybody's. It's not lost on anybody brought into this case or anybody already working the Eberly case. This is probably connected. And my God, Robert Ressler might be right. Agent Trumbias worked the Christopher Walden case, but he, he wasn't working on the Danny Joe Eberly case. We mentioned Peter Kismet from the FBI who was working it as well as Robert. Wrestler Harry Trumbias is brought in for a different purpose on this case. But what's interesting is you have this, this convergence that all of these almost better known FBI agents who had all ended up working on the same case or same series of, of cases right here in Omaha, Nebraska. Now, Agent Trimbias working, you know, now involved with the Christopher Walden case, he's called in immediately. He's working with that statistic, with that number, those statistics sitting in the back of his mind. And he said it was like a weight that you couldn't put down even while you're forcing yourself to operate with discipline and hope. Hope that you're going to find this boy, Christopher Walden, alive and well and bring him home. All right, let's go back to that three pronged investigation. He says the hardest questions. First, we have to interview the parents. In this case, it's sue and Steve. And he says the first prong is ugly but necessary. Sometimes parents or caregivers kill their own children and report them missing to conceal involvement.

Host (15:45)

Right.

Co-host (15:46)

Because of that reality, sue and Steve were interviewed immediately and separately. It was almost an unbearable thing to have to ask parents who are terrified at grieving and still hoping. He said sue and Steve understood the logic, and they cooperated fully and immediately. Investigators walked away with no doubt that sue and Steve were not suspects. They were exactly what they appeared to be, Captain. Two parents living a nightmare.

Host (16:17)

And with this crime happening within three months of Danny's case, law enforcement has to wonder, is there possibly a situation that a parent or a loved one or somebody close to inner circle wants Christopher Walden gone and basically uses Danny's case as a blueprint to get rid of him, to make it look like it could be connected to that case, if that makes any sense.

Co-host (16:44)

Took advantage of the Nebraska nightmare.

Host (16:46)

Right.

Co-host (16:47)

So second prong. Did Chris run away? Well, this fell apart pretty quickly as well. Interviews with sue and Steve, relatives, neighbors, friends, and Chris's teachers all painted a consistent picture of the youngster. Chris was happy. He was loved and well cared for. He had friends. His school experience was very positive. So that left the third prong rising to the surface as the most likely that Chris had been abducted on his way to school, with immediate action being canvassing the neighborhood, obviously, and preparing for a ransom, if that were to be the case. So law enforcement pulled in every available resource for an immediate neighborhood canvas door to door, going along the path that Chris most likely took on that December morning on his way to school. At the same time, FBI Agent Trumbias was asked to respond directly to the Walden family residence and set up for the possibility, you know, however rare, that Chris had been taken for the purpose of ransom. An FBI electronics technician set up a tape recorder to capture incoming calls in case a ransom demand came in.

Host (18:07)

Right.

Co-host (18:08)

The telephone company was alerted so that any call to the residence could be captured and the number identified. So the assignment is clear. It's simple, and it's clear. If a call comes in, activate the recorder. Sue or Steve Walden. The parents would answer the phone at all times, one of them, and keep the caller talking while also writing down anything important. If the call turned out to be unrelated. Right. If it were just a family member or a neighbor, somebody calling, offering support, then sue or Steve would signal the officer, the agent, and the recorder would be shut off. If a ransom call came in, the agent was to notify the assistant special agent in charge immediately, so the FBI could respond accordingly. Quick and accordingly. A lot of effort went into trying to locate Christopher Paul Walden, the son of an officer at Offutt Air Force Base. We do have a witness, a potential witness. Can I get a witness here, Captain? A woman came forward after seeing the media coverage on television. So she says that on the morning that Chris disappeared, December 2, 1983, she had been driving through the area where he would have walked to school. And she says that she noticed a young man approach a young boy. She says she didn't know who the young man was, but the young boy matched Chris's description. So this is a person that doesn't know Christopher Walden. But based off of what she's seeing on the news, she's saying, I think I saw that kid talking to somebody. Her description of this is that the two spoke briefly, then the young man, the older of the two, put his arm around the younger boy, and they both walked together toward a tan sedan. So toward a tan vehicle.

Host (20:12)

Car banned. The tan sedan.

Co-host (20:14)

Damn. We were on this at the time. Of course, the witness said she didn't think anything of it. You know, it's just normal, everyday life. And from her perspective, though, this. To me, I. I want. Give me. Don't. Just tell me what you saw. When. When taking a witness report. Always, always, always. I don't know if this was asked of her or if she just offered it up. Always ask them, well, what did you think in the moment? You know, when you witnessed that, what did you think you were witnessing? We don't know if it was an abduction. We don't even know if it was our missing boy. But if it is, I want to know what this woman thought she was seeing in the moment. So she says, from her perspective, it just looked like an older brother helping a younger brother. Like older brother talking to younger brother, puts his arm around him, and they walk away together. And she happens to see this tan sedan. Now, again, the tan sedan is part of this description, but they're just simply walking toward it. So she doesn't know if they Got into this vehicle or. Or not. But thankfully she saw a vehicle with this. There's a vehicle that is part of this description.

Host (21:30)

Yeah, like we know law enforcement, it's easier to find a car than it is to find an individual. But at least we have two identifiers. She kind of gets a look at this individual with his arm around this boy and then she gets a look at his car. So at least that's something.

Co-host (21:48)

Yeah, and the thing here too is obviously later this is going to mean something to her. The, you know, it's going to click into place and thankfully it did and sends her in the direction of police to give this information. So the sheriff wanted to. And plan to hypnotize the witness in hopes of improving recall in hopes of getting more detail about the. What she saw. The suspect. Potential suspect. The potential suspect vehicle.

Host (22:21)

Right. Maybe saw a license plate with the

Co-host (22:24)

idea of maybe moving toward releasing a composite sketch of this individual. So the hit, the witness was hypnotized.

Host (22:33)

Yeah.

Co-host (22:34)

And a composite was produced from this. The description she provided was. I mean, some might describe this as specific, some might describe it as vague. I think it's somewhere in between.

Host (22:47)

Have you ever been hypnotized?

Co-host (22:51)

Once or twice. Once or twice, but I don't know if it took.

Host (22:54)

Yeah, the only time I was hypnotized, I turned into half Freddie Mercury and half chicken. So I don't think it was good with law enforcement here.

Co-host (23:05)

Yeah, truth be told, it was 20 years ago and I never woke up.

Host (23:08)

Yeah. Still hypnotized.

Co-host (23:10)

Yeah, the, the, the description here, Captain, is white male, 18 to 25 years old, approximately 5 foot 8 inches tall, around 160 pounds, dark hair, brown eyes, wearing a dark toboggan hat.

Host (23:25)

Yeah, but this, this type of predator scares me in the sense of we have two victims roughly the same age. They're similar looks to these victims as well. But is this the victim type or is it. Hey, I'm fine with any victim under the age of 15, so it's putting more of society at risk. But also, let's say your victim type was a six year old. Well, they're, they're not going to be able to fight back as much. There's, there's not. I hate to say it this way, but it's not as much of a risk. And, but in these cases, you got a 12 year old and 13 year old boy, you don't think they're going to put up a fight? Rules of the game or the strategy has to be completely different.

Co-host (24:20)

There are A lot of people that will argue me to death. And who knows, they might be right. We're still trying to figure this out. But I believe in what my studies, reading following these cases have told me over the years or taught me is that with serial offenders, when, you know, we talk about so many serial killers that are prowling, that are looking for adult female victims, right. And I always state in those cases, it appears to me more so with those types of serial killers that their ideal victim or their type, if you will, comes down to three different abilities. One, desirability, right to availability and three, vulnerability. With child predators, I firmly believe that they have much more of a type as a as as it would be more commonly discussed. Right. When people talk about Ted Bundy, they go, well, all of his victims were college age girls with brown hair. Well, that's actually not true. A lot of them were, but that's that he didn't stick to that right template, if you will, where I think that I've reviewed enough cases with child predators. They, they are much closer to having an actual type. Now, the sheriff and the assistant special agent in charge at the FBI brought the composite to the SO composite was conducted. They bring it to the Walden residence so that the parents, sue and Steve, could take a look at it and see if it resembled anyone familiar to them. Because it's not uncommon for someone who knew, who would know a victim to abduct them.

Host (26:18)

Right.

Co-host (26:19)

And Steve, who had remained relatively composed through all of this in the beginning, studied the drawing and said it didn't remind him of anyone. Sue, the mother, trembled as she looked at the composite, knowing that that face in the sketch might belong to the person who took her son. But she also said it didn't look like anyone she knew.

Host (27:03)

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Host (29:59)

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Co-host (31:35)

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Host (32:31)

All right, we are back. Thanks for joining us Here in the garage, tall cans in the air. Cheers to the people in the back.

Co-host (32:37)

Power to the people. Cheers to you, Captain.

Host (32:41)

Power to the people. But this, these cases are different. It's, it's very haunting. You hear about people, especially college age victims or young adults going to bars late at night, meeting a strange individual, maybe going to a party where they don't know a lot of individuals or heading off somewhere. But it's dark, it's the night, there's predators at night. I think there's something built into our systems that go, hey, be careful, it's nighttime. These crimes are not taking place at night. And like I said in a previous episode, is this individual starting their hunt, if you will, in the early mornings, just like, you know, hunters get up early and go out hunting in the, in the morning. Or is it a continuation? Is it, is, is it something that they are starting in the dark but just capturing their prey, if you will, in the morning because of the opportunity?

Co-host (33:57)

Yeah, it's different, difficult to say.

Host (33:59)

You know what I'm saying? Like most of the time it's like these crimes happen especially when there's multiple crimes in, in one location. The phantom killer case, right? We, we see these cases where law enforcement or the, or the community sets these curfews. Hey, don't go out at night. Be careful. And, and yes, there's probably a Threat level during the day. But it's like, okay, it's getting dark. Everybody get in your houses. This is different. This is. The threat level is right when you wake up. The threat level is on your way to school. I think that's terrifying.

Co-host (34:38)

Oh, absolutely. And with the Gosh case and with the Eberly case, they, they were paper boys. So you do have the COVID of darkness. But. But it's in the morning hours. Yeah, it's in the, the early morning. Here we have a kid who vanishes in. In daylight. And the only good part about that is that it might have produced if this witness actually saw the abduction or the start of the abduction, then it did produce a witness with a description. And law enforcement tells the Walden that they intend to release the composite sketch to the media, hoping it will generate additional tips. The witness had also provided a partial license plate number. But. But the sheriff explained that they were hesitant to release the partial plate because more than a thousand vehicles in the state of Nebraska contained some variation of those letters and. Or numbers.

Host (35:40)

Yeah. But I couldn't imagine all thousand of them were colored tan.

Co-host (35:44)

So publicizing it would likely generate too many false leads. So. Right, you say that, but if they're only getting two letters in a number or three numbers, no letters, I don't know exactly what she gave to them.

Host (36:00)

Why. And they might not want to release that they believe that the vehicle is the color of tan. Right. Well.

Co-host (36:08)

And a lot of times you would release something a little more vague because you don't want people to rationalize away a potential good tip. So you don't. You wouldn't say a tan sedan, you would say a light colored vehicle. And so again though, this is their statements that this we. We. So here's what they do. They worry that publicizing it would generate too many false leads. They are working against the clock here, but they're going to work that angle in house. So those partial digits. And then went to the state DMV. A computer search produced nearly 1,000 possible matching cars statewide. So in house they were working that with. Here's the information we think we have with the plate. Cross reference it with vehicles that match the vague description. What, what's our total that we come up with? It's nearly a thousand possible matching cars statewide. Now if you narrow that down to Sarpy county, which you don't know. We don't know if the plate was Sarpy county or not.

Host (37:13)

Right.

Co-host (37:13)

But that, that will reduce that number probably somewhat greatly. I don't know how greatly. I don't have those numbers in front of me. But it's going to be a grind, it's going to be a slog. Police were prepared for the grinding work of checking each one of those vehicles that were on that list.

Host (37:33)

And I think you point out something great here. You do have a ticking time bomb because you don't have this victim. You, you don't know what has happened to this victim. But I think you actually have two ticking time bombs. You have. First, we got to try to find Christopher. Yeah, but if we don't find Christopher or if we find him but he's not alive, we have another ticking time bomb. Because if these cases are connected, we only had a three month gap. And is that gap going to get shorter? Is it going to be we find Chris and then two weeks later another kid gets abducted?

Co-host (38:14)

You know, as said, it's going to be a slog getting through that list. But. But well before those leads could all be chased down. And this puts us at the marker of just three days after the boy went missing.

Host (38:29)

Right.

Co-host (38:30)

Two bird hunters found Christopher's body in a heavily wooded area. This is about, I have a few different descriptions here. Some say four miles, some say five miles. So let's go with about four to five miles away from where he had been abducted. The two hunters had been out hunting and discovered him lying in the woods. Chris had suffered multiple stab wounds. Now, it's a bit of luck here for the investigation and really for the community. The hunters had been fortunate to find Chris when they did because snow had began coming down heavily that day. So one the way that this worked out was one hunter shot a pheasant and they walked to where the bird fell and the pheasant actually landed at Chris's feet. Chris's body was almost completely covered by snow, but the hunters could make out the shape and when they got closer, they said that they recognized him from the photographs that had been circulating in the. So they backed away and they called the sheriff's office. Chris's body was found approximately three miles from where the offender, if it, if it were the same person.

Host (39:49)

Right.

Co-host (39:50)

Had disposed of Danny. Joe Eberly.

Host (39:53)

Yeah. So we have similar age, same, like I said, a three month window, same time of day, very similar looks, same build. Yeah, same build. And then found in similar location. And it's not unreasonable to go. Well, he didn't want to, he didn't want to dispose of the body in the exact same location. But I'd say three miles in a wooded area is pretty much the Same location.

Co-host (40:21)

And I want to be clear when I'm talking about luck here, because I often point out that the victims never get lucky. And of course, in this case, it's the same thing. Christopher was killed, Danny. Joe Eberly was killed. It's usually the killer that gets lucky. What I mean, here, it's a narrow stroke of luck inside of the horror that's going on because Christopher was found just as heavy snowfall began. So even just a few more hours, one more day, could have completely buried the scene and delaying discovery until spring. We know a lot of victims are found in the springtime. And by then, if it is the same killer, this killer might have struck multiple times. Christopher's case also clarified something every investigator learns the hard way. The abduction site is often not the murder site. The murder site is often not where the body is found. The place where the body is discovered becomes the crime scene because it yields the most evidence. But the mechanics of the abduction and. And the killing can remain hidden to investigators. We'll circle back into that thought here in just a second here. Captain, let's get into some of the more finer points, some of the details that are not so nice to discuss. The injuries were extensive. We have numerous stab wounds over Chris's chest and shoulders, and his neck had been cut ear to ear. The conclusion was grim but clear. Chris had died violently and appeared it had happened quickly. Christopher was wearing only his undershorts. He was the same height and almost the same age as the first victim, Danny, but he was about 15 pounds lighter. For the investigators who saw what had been done, the conclusion came quickly. This was the same killer. Remember, both of them found just wearing their undershorts. So let's. Let's take a look at these two murders. In Danny's case, we have FBI Peter Klisman and Robert Wrestler. They're going to be called back in to work on Christopher Walden's case. Now, Peter Klisman, because he's more local, was there before Wrestler. Wrestler does not arrive until after Christopher Walden's body is found.

Host (42:42)

But Wrestler told us if we. If we don't catch this guy, he will offend again.

Co-host (42:48)

Yes. Now, in the first case in Danny's case, both Agent Klisman and Ressler believed that Danny had been killed elsewhere and then dumped near the river. In Christopher Walden's case, the evidence suggested the opposite. The dump site was also the murder site. So his clothes were found piled neatly near his body. And in fact, footprints nearly covered by snow showed two sets of feet walking into the area. Where the boy's body was found. But only one set walking out. So that detail mattered. It suggests one offender. It suggests a relatively slight offender, too. And we'll circle back to that. I guess we don't need to. The idea here is that and wrestler believe this, that your offender is probably on the smaller side because he chose to walk the victim to the murder site rather than carry the body deep into the woods.

Host (43:54)

Right.

Co-host (43:55)

So he forced the boy to walk out there under threat. And Robert Ressler said that this revealed a coward at the core. Choosing small victims, Unlikely to fight back, easy to intimidate. He also says that at the same time, the killer had improved. He was learning from his first murder. He was adjusting. The first murder had involved tape and rope. Remember, they found those at the body discovery scene?

Host (44:26)

Right.

Co-host (44:27)

These are tools that would have gave the killer confidence and control over the victim. But after the first case, those items became liabilities, why they were recovered at the first scene. So if rope and tape were being analyzed, if fibers could be traced, if brands could be identified, then repeating those materials risked connecting him to the first killing. So perhaps he grew smarter. He evolved, thinking, I won't use these items again. Or at the very least, if I do use them, I won't leave them there for the police to find. He's also likely learning he could control a child victim without binding him. He could do it with authority, with fear, pressure, and threats.

Host (45:14)

Right. And depending on your weapon. I mean, obviously, we have some evidence that there's a knife involved, But a knife could be the murder weapon, but not the threat, so. Or the weapon used to control. So you could use a gun to control the victim, but a knife in the attack. But I also think it's teaching this killer that I don't have to have this crazy ruse to get the victim into the car. I just got to get in proximity where the weapon used to control. I just have to get in the proximity so then I can show them the weapon that I'm going to use them to control, if that makes any sense.

Co-host (46:00)

Christopher's murder revealed another detail here that was different. He took this boy further into the woods. Much more further into the woods. So he's managing risk, and he also avoided. They didn't find the clothing in the first one. So at some point, you run. You run the risk of getting caught with the clothing. So this is evidence. Right. You get caught with evidence in your possession or in your vehicle.

Host (46:29)

Right.

Co-host (46:29)

And so he kept the victim clothed longer, moved into isolation, then forced the victim to undress only once the killer, the offender felt safe. He and he wanted to better conceal the second body, maybe in hopes that it would delay the recovery or potentially not at all be found.

Host (46:52)

Right.

Co-host (46:53)

So another victim, another murder meant Robert Wrestler updating the offend the offender profile or at least adding more context to his original profile. Wrestler commented later on the repeated stripping of the victim. Right. In both cases they're found in their undershorts. So this is now confirmed. In the second murder, he said that this action looked more decisively sexual, tied to humiliation and fantasy. Even without conventional sexual assault. The lack of penetration in both cases hardened another conclusion, that the killer was likely profoundly dysfunctional, sexually driven by ritualized fantasy more than adult intimacy. He says, in everyday life, I believe this offender would have difficulty associating with peers. If he dated, it would be performative or dysfunctional and likely with significantly younger girls, partners that he could dominate. The physical medical examination. The injuries were stab wounds and deep lacerations concentrated on the chest and neck. There was a star shaped cutting. So they find a pattern, a pattern cut on the second victim. But what's intriguing to the investigators is rather than this being something that they thought was signature for the killer, it actually they thought was to conceal something else that had occurred. So they say that this star shaped cutting took place over what appeared to be a bite mark. There were two locations on the second victim where they believe that skin was removed to cover up what was the offender biting the victim.

Host (48:49)

Wrestler is thinking that this killer is not that experienced, but obviously is learning. And then there's no bite marks in the first case, but the second case there's bite marks or some reason that skin is removed. So maybe that's an escalation of the fantasy of the. This whole crime.

Co-host (49:11)

Well, and if they're correct and the cases are correct, which that's what they're saying right away when, when discovering the

Host (49:17)

body, they, if they're connected.

Co-host (49:18)

Yeah, yeah, they, they were convinced. The FBI was convinced it's connected. And now you're kind of learning something about your offender. If in fact he did bite the first victim as well, he may have covered that up in some form or fashion as well.

Host (49:33)

Right?

Co-host (49:33)

Correct. So the, the bite marks would be something that he wasn't able he had to do. Right. It's part of his fantasy. It's part of.

Host (49:44)

Right.

Co-host (49:44)

Of why he does what he does. A signature almost, if you will.

Host (49:48)

I mean, that's one of the craziest things, is when you learn this idea that they're reenacting the fantasy, over and over. They might be changing some of the methods because there is a criminal mind aspect of it.

Co-host (50:04)

Right.

Host (50:04)

So the. The major thing is I have a fantasy. I want to live out that fantasy, but in order to do so, in. In order to continue that fantasy or escalate the fantasy or to perfect the fantasy like that. That's fascinating to me that they're.

Co-host (50:21)

They're.

Host (50:21)

They're basically trying to put themselves in the situation and control a situation. So the fantasy becomes more defined in the moment.

Co-host (50:30)

Yeah.

Host (50:31)

To. To match whatever sick perversion is in their head.

Co-host (50:35)

Well, and I. I always say it's. It's like a drug. It's like chasing the dragon. And that dragon is a violent sexual fantasy. A fantasy that's all wrapped up in sex and violence and strange, sick, deviant behavior all into one. But the offender, when they are thinking or living out that fantasy alone prior to any murders or abductions, it's. They are the writer, the director, and the actor in the movie in their head. There's other. There's the role of the victim or other victims that are being played out in that person's fantasy, in that evil person's fantasy. But. But the cast members haven't been filled yet. These victims are the cast members. This is. He's written this fantasy, he's directed it, and he's acted in it many times. Now we have a situation where there's somebody casted to play the role of the victim. And. But. But what's interesting to me here as well, what we're seeing is while there's all that fantasy involved and he can't control himself to the point where he would bite the person because you would think he would want to. Knowing that, he chooses to cover it, knowing that. That, oh, this might get me caught. But it also. This victim in the scene tells us, the body tells us, just like in the first case, that this person isn't completely insane. It's not a frenzied killer. He's not just killing, doing whatever he wants to do and just leaving the body. He's making attempts to get away with it, to not be detected, to not be identified. And. And he's increased his level of concealment and covering it up with the second murder.

Host (52:28)

Yeah.

Co-host (52:29)

And he's reduced his risk with the second with actions that he took with this second abduction and murder. And Ressler said the progression between the murders also looked like escalation. The first killing read like an experiment testing whether he could do it or not. Second showed fascination, repetition, and Increased post mortem cutting. And Ressler became convinced of several details. One, there were no accomplices. This was one offender acting alone.

Host (53:00)

Well, the, the evidence doesn't definitively prove that because there could be another actor as far as abducting. But I think the footprints is evidence that there is. At least in the Walden case, we know where the crime scene is. It's the, it's where the body's found. So if we only have a singular footprint leaving or a singular footprint alongside the victim's footprints, then there's only one killer.

Co-host (53:36)

The other portion of this too, that he became convinced of was geography. Tightened the net. We talked about the proximity, the close proximity with everything involved here between the two cases. He's now of the belief the offender knew the area too well to be transient. Remember, he went with his first profile. He left the door open on the possibility that it could be a transient offender. And now he, he had already kind of circled and hovered around this with the first profile. But now he was really leaning on this and extremely heavily saying that he believed the offender was from Bellevue or the air base off it. And he, he, he pointed the detectives once again in the direction of the air base. And then he even goes further with this, saying that he made a sharper occupational prediction for the offender. He said, you're looking for a low ranking Airman, E4 class or lower, that would be working in light maintenance or administration. Perhaps a mechanic, someone who would blend in, move around without drawing attention and understand the rhythms of the area. Back to the bite marks again, this. Let's, let's use his words because I used a lot of my own before, and he says that you can use

Host (55:03)

whoever's words you want to use.

Co-host (55:06)

Certain, certain wound patterns also suggested something else. Concealment of bite marks, a person trying to hide bite marks. Likely new bite patterns could identify an offender. That wasn't universally public knowledge at the time, but it was discussed in detective and police magazines. Ressler wrote that the offender likely read such publications.

Host (55:28)

And we see this and most serial offenders, right, There's a criminal mind, there's a criminal interest there. And the ogre, Rex Herman, you know he pled guilty, right. But you know, they're now talking about some kind of mindhunter type investigation with him or like a psychiatric investigation, I guess you will. The same that Edmund Kemp, Edmund Kemper did with FBI agents and, and other serial killers have done. So it's, it's. I would almost assume that that's more commonplace in serial offenders. To have an interest in the true crime genre.

Co-host (56:19)

Absolutely, absolutely. Especially the ones that aren't heavily involved with, with being intoxicated, whether it be alcohol or drugs or both.

Host (56:31)

Right.

Co-host (56:32)

With the ease that this perpetrator was able to commit the abductions, the FBI also believed that the offender had likely had involvement with boys in a social acceptable setting, boys of this specific age. So they pointed to things like boy scouts, coaching youth programs, something that gave him proximity to these age of boys. Now the big concern here was of course, now we have two unsolved murders, now we have another victim. But also the calendar, look at the calendar, look at what's ahead. School holidays were coming and they knew that this killer, if it was one in the same, this killer would strike again and it would be soon and it would be sooner, it would be quicker than the last time. And with children outside of school, his opportunities would multiply. So there was an all out media blitz. Newspapers, tv, radio, and it was repetitive. Over and over again they hit the people hard with information. Children should play in groups. Parents should watch for suspicious cars, write down license plates and call a heavily advertised task force number. So they gave out the task force number. The other thing that we've seen in these types of investigations too, where they start to become very public and want the public to know that they are there and there is a strong law enforcement presence.

Host (58:05)

Right.

Co-host (58:05)

You will see oftentimes that the. A person in charge or like I like to call the. The. The champion. Right. The who are we going to champion in law enforcement to become the enemy of the offender. The enemy of. You have the face of evil. I talk about this in the Delphi book. You have the face of evil, but you need the face of law enforcement of the person who's going to apprehend whose unit and team is going to find this guy. Yeah.

Host (58:34)

You need stop doing what he does.

Co-host (58:36)

Exactly.

Host (58:36)

Need Batman to the Joker.

Co-host (58:39)

So you're constantly putting pressure on your offender by announcing how big and what is the number of the law enforcement presence in the area. They established something here called a code 17. So if another abduction was reported, Sarpy county could. This is something they practiced. Sarpy county could seal off the entire county roadways within 11 minutes.

Host (59:05)

Wow.

Co-host (59:06)

So the goal, stop the abductor before they could leave or before they could become isolated with the victim. Trap the offender. The media campaign was tremendous and the public responded. There were, there were no immediate abduction attempts after they were really digging in on the Walden case and still working the Eberly case.

Host (59:34)

Well, this is another part of the Ticking time bomb. Right. So you have a. In the first case we have multiple scenes. We have the adopt the abduction site, we have the kill site, then we have the disposal site. So we have three. But then the second case we have abduction site and then the, the disposing of the body site is the same as the kill site. Meaning when that, when this predator gets their victim, there's no stopping at Starbucks to get a coffee, they're going straight to the disposal slash kill site.

Co-host (60:11)

Yes, that appears to be the case. It gets a little difficult because in none of the information that I could find were they. Did they sound convinced of the, the time of death? It was, you know, I reviewed a lot of information on both of these cases and some were leaning towards shortly after the abduction. Others were leaning towards closer to the time that the body was discovered. And we know that in both cases, oddly enough, there was roughly a three day window.

Host (60:41)

Okay, so that's fascinating. So what you're saying is that, well, in the second case it could be, well, I'm going to take you to this other location that's not going to be where I kill you, but I am going to hold you for a time period. And maybe that's part of the fantasy.

Co-host (60:58)

Absolutely. So on January 11, 1985, the case shifted dramatically. On this day, there was an incident that led to a major break in the case. This is January 11, 1985, at a church daycare center. Early that morning, a preschool teacher arrived for work at a Methodist, a United Methodist church in Bellevue. She parked her car, stepped out of the vehicle and began walking toward the preschool entrance, located in the church's basement. She says that she noticed a young man sitting in a white vehicle near the church. For a brief moment their eyes met, but nothing was said. She continued on pushing forward. The man startled her. He was a. He was slight in stature and matched the partial description of the offender of the abductor in the Walden case that had been broadcasted throughout the media. The teacher began writing something down and the young man saw her do this. So he gets out of the car, he walked to the daycare door, then he pushed his way inside, telling her that he needs to use the telephone. She refused. And the refusal didn't seem to slow him down. It seemed to provoke him. He pulled a knife and threatened to kill her. And he demanded the slip of paper, the one that she was writing something down on. Now she was writing down his license plate number.

Host (62:29)

Yeah. Smart move.

Co-host (62:31)

In a split second decision powered by fear and instinct, the teacher resisted she shoved him away and ran hard toward the pastor's residence. Residence located very nearby. She reached the residence, pounded on the door. When someone answered, she yelled to them to call the police. The man fled back to his vehicle and drove off. Bellevue police arrived within minutes, but the white vehicle and the young man were already gone. But now there was something investigators had needed for months. A license plate number. And one that wasn't based off of memory or hypnosis or trying to piece together some letters and numbers. Police run the plate. The result immediately raised the stakes. Running the plate led investigators quickly to the registered owner. But this, at first glance, kind of fell flat. The registered owner was a nearby Chevrolet dealership. So this vehicle wasn't privately owned. It was actually a loaner. So it was checked out to an airman stationed at Offutt Air Force Base while his car was being repaired. Yeah. And that immediately mattered. Well, all right, so there you go, Captain. The airman's personal vehicle was sitting inside the dealership garage, and it fit what witnesses had been describing. It was a tan Chevy Nova, closely matching descriptions witnesses had provided in connection with the slayings of Danny Jo Eberly and Christopher Walden. And the Nova had reportedly remained untouched because the dealership was so busy with cars to fix that the mechanics simply hadn't got to it yet. So they go over, and as they're approaching it, they immediately notice that the Nova, the license plate, shared the same couple of digits that the hypnotized witness had recalled. Yeah, and when the officers look inside the vehicle, they saw rope and a knife. The plate for this vehicle, Captain, came back to a one John J. Jupert. Again, an offit Air Force man station at Offit Air Force Base Jupiter had the loaner because his car had broken down due to engine trouble. And I, from my understanding, it had been towed. So now this dude, we're going to look at this guy, but we have one benefit when we go to look at him, right? Appears he was involved in some kind of attempted assault on this woman at the church. So we, we're not just going there with, hey, a plate number and your vehicle was seen. We're going there with somebody telling us you. You assaulted somebody. We. We already have pending charges on you. So when they get to offit at the air base, they encounter John Jupert. He's in his quarters. He's sitting on his bunk. He's initially arrested for the attempted robbery and assault involving the preschool teacher. But it didn't take long for the focus to broaden Given the ongoing panic, the previous murders, and the increasingly urgent need to stop whoever was responsible for this Nebraska nightmare, they began questioning him and told him, look, man, you are a suspect in these two child abductions and homicides. And they're telling him. Your vehicles matching a description that we were looking for. Your plates matching a description that we were looking for. Your appearance is matching a description we were looking for. And, oh, by the way, we found rope and knife.

Host (66:16)

Not to mention that we also have footprints that probably match as well. But it is. It is quite disturbing how much or how much this individual doesn't look much older than the victims.

Co-host (66:30)

Well, and the thing here, too is. Yes. And I'm.

Host (66:34)

I mean, he looks like a child to me. Like, if somebody said to me, look at Jupiter's a rest photo, how would you describe this individual? I'd be like, I don't know, maybe 15, 16 years old.

Co-host (66:48)

Yeah, I was going to say 16.

Host (66:50)

And also, like. And that's just off this picture. But he's only five, six. If I saw him out at a grocery store or the local vinyl shop, because I'm picking up some Elvis Presley or Notorious B.I.G. i'm going, well, this guy might be 15, 16 years old, which would only be a couple years older than the victim.

Co-host (67:11)

See, that's what. That's. Will, peel open the curtain here a little bit and let's just peek behind the scenes. But truth be told, we. 99% of the time, we don't compare notes here in the garage. But I. But our observations often overlap. And here's the exact same thing. I look at this, this booking photo, and I go, my God, that guy's 16 years old. He's but a kid himself. Now, the rope is what they wanted to talk to him about. Initially, he tells them that, look, that that rope is not rare. It's not unique. Later, they determined that it was, in fact, unique. And it's going to be the rope that's going to put the killer at a disadvantage when he tries to deny having any involvement. He eventually breaks down and tells them that he. He was the killer, that he did abduct both of them. And they learn a lot about John Jubert very quickly. He had joined the Air Force a little more than a year before the murder and abduction of Danny Jo Erly. He received training in Mississippi and Texas before being stationed at Offutt Air Force Base. He was stationed there about two months or so prior to Eberle's murder. And at the time, he was also serving as an assistant Scout master or den master for a boy Scout troop in Bellevue. So Wrestler was right with his thought that you would find the guy at the Air Force base. He was also right that he would have some kind of regular interaction with boys similar in age to the two victims.

Host (69:02)

Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. My concern about that item in the profile was when they were talking about, oh, maybe it's somebody from this Air Force base. But like you said, it's. You're bringing individuals in and out, they're being transferred. So I mean, to me, I think that's a little crazy that somebody's able to get transferred. And within weeks of being transferred, they're already involved in an organization that would put them around their victim type.

Co-host (69:34)

Yeah. So I had just read from my notes. Said a station at the Offa Air Force Base about two months prior to the Eberly murder. I actually think he might have been there quite a bit before because, remember, Wrestler encouraged them to look for individuals that had been stationed there within six months prior to the Eberly murder. I think it was prior to six months. This might just be bad note taking on my behalf.

Host (70:03)

I get your shit together.

Co-host (70:05)

Well, no, I'm just being transparent that I don't know if he was. I know he was in the Air Force, signed up for the Air Force one year prior to the murder.

Host (70:15)

Right.

Co-host (70:16)

I don't know how soon he got to offit. Because there is some thought that oftentimes these guys will have triggers. There's thought that his trigger here was he had developed a closeness, a relationship with his roommate at the barracks there. And that these two roommate mates, two airmen, were being picked on by the other airmen and that the. The one. His friend, his one and only friend at the Air Force base decided to move to another room or. Or relocate. And they think that maybe the stress of that could have pushed this guy who was. Look, he was already on the edge if he hadn't already gone over. But if he was on the edge, that may have been the thing that. The tipping point here.

Host (71:05)

And some people are not good with having being alone with their thoughts. Because then that fantasy becomes more enticing where if you had a roommate, you want to be left alone with your thoughts. So maybe the escalation in your mind of these fantasies doesn't escalate. But a lot of these killers, we see that they spend so much time alone, but I think that's because they're losing control of. Of this fantasy that most of them, they have to know that it's not natural because they're not having conversations with a lot of people about these unnatural thoughts. But like I said, when you're alone with these unnatural thoughts, they, they manifest.

Co-host (71:52)

Absolutely. And the thing too, in regard to the rope, they also found the rope in his, in his quarters at the air base. So it wasn't just in his car they find this rope. This rope was unique enough. Apparently he got it from somebody he worked with in the Boy Scouts there in Bellevue. Pretty much when they had him dead to rights, he asked if he could speak with the troop leader that he worked with. And he also wanted to, to speak with one of the boys, a specific boy that was a member of the scout troop.

Host (72:28)

And what do you want to tell this boy?

Co-host (72:30)

Well, they, they granted him both wishes, but told him it was going to be strictly supervised, especially with the child there. I mean, the child, the boy was the same age as, as the victims. I guess he had befriended the boy and the boy had befriended him and he, he simply told the boy, look, I did this, but I never would have have hurt you. I just want you to know I didn't do this because of you. I didn't do it in spite of you and I never would have hurt you. I don't know why that was important to him, but cool, because, and good by them to allow this to happen in the way that it did, because I can't say that he wouldn't have confessed, but he absolutely did confess to both murders after talking to these individuals when they were supervised. And then he gave details of both that were significant enough that they knew that only the killer would know these details. And according to Jupiter, again, they always lie about portions of this.

Host (73:29)

Of course they do.

Co-host (73:30)

But according to Jupiter, he said he approached both boys, displayed a knife, threatened to kill them if they didn't come with him. He denied that the abductions and murders were sexually motivated, but he did say he enjoyed the power and control over the victims. Now I'm glad that you pointed out how young he appeared because when I was first looking into this case and without having the details of his confession, my suspicion was that he looked young enough that even had even with there being a boy who had previously been abducted and murdered, that a 13 year old boy, right, might let his guard down. Because who are you scared of? You're scared of the, this, the scary old white dude, right? You're scary scared of the creepy looking guy in the van. You're not scared of the 16 year old that pulls up in a car that Looks like a car that a 16 year old would drive. Of course, he, he wasn't 16 years old. He just, he just looked, he just looked that because of his, his slight stature. And that's the other part of this too. His victims were very small. I think that his, when we, we were talking about type earlier, I think his type was of this age. But I think that there was some strategy involved in seeking out smaller victims because he was himself slight. He was 21 years old at the time, baby faced, which, that's an understatement. He looked like he was 15 or 16.

Host (74:59)

Was he old at the time of the murders but 21 when he was arrested?

Co-host (75:05)

Correct.

Host (75:05)

Yeah.

Co-host (75:06)

Well, and we have a couple of, we have a span of, of many months that go by here, but he's only 5 foot 6, 160 pounds.

Host (75:16)

He's a small little piece of.

Co-host (75:18)

Yeah, and even smaller than that. You know, I forgive me, because this, some of these measurements might be from later, from his time in prison. So to put it short though, he confessed. But catching Jupiter didn't end the story. Of course it's going to move into the courts and then they're going to dig into his past. But John Jupiter, his case proceeded through the legal system. He did confess, but despite confessing, he initially pled not guilty to the charges and then later changed that plea to guilty.

Host (75:56)

The Boy Scout that ended up having the conversation. You're approached by law enforcement, hey, it's going to be supervised, but you still have to talk to this individual. And so that, that kid should be, that kid should be awarded because that takes some big brass balls, my friend, to sit in a room or across the table from somebody that, you know, murdered two individuals that probably look like you and probably by all accounts the same description as you.

Co-host (76:32)

And as said, he later changed his plea to guilty and was sentenced to die in the electric chair. After a third three judge panel concluded that John Juper understood right and wrong at the time of the murders. Appeals followed, but John J. Juper remained on death row.

Host (77:06)

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother for everything. True crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com there's so much more and this series so much more for us to tickle your earballs. Until the next episode.

Co-host (77:22)

Be good, be kind, and don't.

Host (77:28)

Sa.

Co-host (78:00)

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast. I'm Gabe Liedman. I'm Max Silvestri. And we've been friends for 20 years and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables? Can I drink the water at the hospital? My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop. You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

Host (78:38)

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