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Ellen Greenberg ////// 886 - True Crime Garage | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Ellen Greenberg ////// 886

Wed Nov 19 2025

January 26, 2011 - 27 year old Ellen Greenberg died after sustaining twenty knife wounds. Surprisingly her death was ruled a suicide. But her parents did not agree with the ruling. The Greenberg’s went on a litigation battle against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s office and have been fighting for their daughter for fourteen years. What really happened in that apartment?

Summary

True Crime Garage: Ellen Greenberg ////// 886

Release date: November 19, 2025
Hosts: Nic and Captain Fat Hands
Special Guest: Cheryl "Mack" McCollum, Crime Analyst

Episode Overview

The episode focuses on the death of Ellen Greenberg, a Philadelphia school teacher found dead in her apartment in 2011 with over 20 stab wounds—a case officially ruled as suicide despite persisting doubts from experts, her family, and much of the public. Hosts Nic and The Captain revisit this mysterious and controversial case alongside renowned crime analyst Cheryl McCollum. They scrutinize new developments, discuss investigative flaws, and dissect the physical and circumstantial evidence—or lack thereof—that continues to stir debate over whether Ellen's death was suicide, homicide, or something else entirely.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Recent Developments & Renewed Attention

[04:15-06:59] News clips and context introduce renewed legal battles, the city’s reaffirmation of suicide, and the Greenberg family's continued pursuit for answers.
- Attorney Joe Pedraza (representing the family) calls the medical examiner’s amended report “shameful” and “another obstacle that’s been thrown up by the city to prevent that investigation from being done.”
- Original ME, Dr. Marlon Osborne, recants his suicide ruling but his current opinion doesn’t change Ellen’s official death certificate status.

2. Cheryl McCollum’s Background & Perspective

[09:13-13:35] Cheryl “Mack” McCollum shares her crime-solving approach and long career, from learning from Nancy Grace to her Emmy-winning work on CSI Atlanta and hosting the podcast Zone 7.
- Quote: “Do not ever discount luck. It’s a tremendous thing.” – Cheryl McCollum (10:35)
Cheryl describes the importance of expertise in analyzing wounds and the need for pathologists and legal experts’ input.
- Quote: “I wanted to talk to Dr. Priya Banerji for sure. She's a pathologist. I'm not. So I wanted somebody at that level to just break down for me those stab wounds. Could you possibly, as the coup de grace, stab yourself in the chest four inches deep?” – Cheryl McCollum (14:43)

3. Critical Review of the Case Circumstances

[14:43-18:21] Cheryl challenges the foundational assumption of “no forced entry,” noting the contradiction with the fiancé breaking down the door, and why that false premise likely colored the medical examiner’s and police’s conclusions.
- Quote: “Both of those things can't be true... [it] tells me they accepted somebody’s version of what happened, not their investigation.” – Cheryl McCollum (14:43-15:40)
Nic and Cheryl emphasize that manner-of-death determinations are influenced not just by autopsy, but also by the crime scene and context.

4. Investigative Mindset and Protocols

[20:31-21:13] Nic and Captain talk about approaching any unexplained death as a homicide until evidence clearly points elsewhere, citing why it’s harder to reverse a suicide ruling than to scale back from a homicide approach.
- Cheryl strongly agrees: “Every single death should be worked as a homicide until you see differently... When you start to see something where you're like, okay, have you ever seen a suicide with 20 stab wounds to the head, neck, and chest?” (21:13)
Quote: “In 44 years, if I tell you I've never seen it, suicide ain't coming to my mind yet.” – Cheryl McCollum (21:51)

5. Analysis of the 911 Call and Fiancé’s Behavior

[21:51-24:11] Cheryl and the hosts critique the fiancé Sam’s call, focusing on his calm demeanor, delayed mention of the knife, and immediate acceptance that Ellen harmed herself.
- Quote: “The last thing I'm thinking, we are so happy is that she's done this to herself.” – Cheryl McCollum (23:07)
Suspicion is raised over his lack of concern about intruders and his seemingly prepared narrative.

6. Crime Scene Details and Physical Evidence

[24:11-27:39] The discussion delves into possible staging, questions about the locked door and the apartment latch, the absence of Ellen’s fingerprints on the knife, and the presence of significant bruising.
- Cheryl: “If it's been smeared and you don't have one decent print off there, I'd question that too.” (27:07)
Defensive wounds and bruises are discussed, with Cheryl asserting that the number and distribution are inconsistent with suicide (28:04).
- “You can't tell me, 'Well, she was clumsy.' Well, she was accident prone. It sounds to me like somebody beat her.” – Cheryl McCollum (38:48)

7. Behavioral and Psychological Factors

[32:53-34:57] Cheryl lists the lack of suicidal indicators: no note, no text goodbye, no giving away possessions, no hint to friends, and imminent wedding plans.
- Quote: “She had forward plans... future things on a calendar, one being a wedding.” – Cheryl McCollum (33:17)
The hosts and Cheryl tackle the weapon and wound mechanics, referencing pathologist Dr. Banerji’s expert opinion that these wounds would be exceedingly difficult, if not impossible, to self-inflict.
- “Four inches on a knife and try to get it in a chicken... after her vertebrae is damaged.” (35:30)

8. Digital Evidence, Time of Death & Messaging

[48:40-51:56] Nic presses the need for more analysis of digital records—was digital activity from her in her style, or possibly staged? Did Sam’s communications escalate to concern, anger, or panic?
- Cheryl: “What is the rhythm?... Is it with an emoji or an exclamation point? ... He didn't go downstairs and beg for help... That ain't what he did.” (50:31)

9. Faulty Investigation and Lessons for Law Enforcement

[52:07-54:14] Cheryl outlines investigative steps she would have taken: reconstructing the latch break, checking for physical evidence of forced entry, and compares shoddy work in high-profile cases.
- Quote: “If you do it quick and you cut corners, that case will never go away...” – Cheryl McCollum (54:50)
She details the imperative for exhaustive, unbiased documentation at the crime scene: “You only get one shot at your crime scene.” – Nick (57:44)

10. Alternate Theories and Suspect Pool

[62:32-65:21] The team considers alternative explanations. Could someone else have killed Ellen? Is it conceivable (though unlikely) an outsider was involved, à la the BTK case? Cheryl reminds that high-violence, non-sexual homicides are usually linked to anger or revenge, not strangers.
- “People are only killed for three reasons. Sex, money, and revenge, for the most part...” – Cheryl McCollum (64:29)

11. Key Unanswered Questions

[70:00-76:16] Unresolved issues still bother experts and the public alike:
- Trajectory of stab wounds (could she inflict them herself?)
- Sequence and timing of wounds versus loss of consciousness
- Why crucial evidence (e.g. digital forensics, fingerprints, bruise analysis, gym/locker examination) isn’t available or explained
- Whether trash cans, drainpipes, or other venues were checked for evidence
Quote: “If you do not have evidence, I don’t want to hear about a theory... The evidence that we have... does not lead anybody to suicide.” – Cheryl McCollum (76:16)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Cheryl McCollum on crime scene best practice:
“I want to hear that [911] call while I’m standing in that apartment. You hear me? ... There’s a lot of flags with the 911 call.” (21:51-24:11)
Cheryl McCollum on investigation mindset:
“Every single death should be worked as a homicide until you see differently.” (21:13)
On the suspect pool:
“Highly violent and just vicious with no sexual assault... Your suspect pool gets shrank pretty good.” (64:29)
On police error and transparency:
“There should be no secrets here. In order for them to accept it, every single thing should be told to them, shown to them…” (53:12)
On best crime scene habits:
“You get one shot at your crime scene. You can only be there for the first time once. So don’t rush out of there... Do your due diligence.” – Nick (57:44)
On the lasting impact of a rushed investigation:
“If you do it quick and you cut corners, that case will never go away... They should have taken even an extra 30 minutes and worked it, worked the daylights out of it...” – Cheryl McCollum (54:50)

Important Segment Timestamps

News updates, legal and ME ruling recap: [04:15–06:59]
Cheryl McCollum introduction and credentials: [09:13–13:35]
Expert roundtable and law enforcement training analogy: [14:43–17:26]
Crime scene analysis and the “no forced entry” fallacy: [17:26–18:52]
911 call and fiancé behavior analysis: [21:51–25:18]
Discussion of wounds, bruises, and suicide mechanics: [27:39–38:48]
Behavioral evidence, lack of suicide indicators: [32:53–34:57]
Comments on investigation failings and protocols: [52:07–54:50]
Tips for rookies and single-chance crime scenes: [57:44–62:32]
Alternate suspect theories (BTK, stranger, etc): [62:32–65:21]
Outstanding forensic and evidentiary questions: [70:00–76:16]
Cheryl’s favorite podcast episodes & crime stories: [78:32–80:58]

Conclusion

The episode ends with Cheryl McCollum lauding True Crime Garage’s impact, reiterating the need for detailed, impartial investigation, and recommending her podcast Zone 7 for further true crime analysis.

At-a-Glance:

“This case isn’t going anywhere... There needs to be more done on the front end. Don’t rush your crime scene. You only get one shot.”
— Cheryl McCollum (multiple segments)

Further Listening & Viewing Recommendations

Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum
Captain Fat Hands on YouTube

This summary provides a comprehensive, detail-rich recap of the episode’s primary points and expert discussions—ideal for listeners who seek a nuanced understanding of the ongoing Ellen Greenberg case and its enduring controversies.

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Transcript

Cheryl McCollum (0:00)

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Nick (1:40)

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thank you for listening. I'm your host, Nick and with me as always, is the Devil who Went down to Georgia. Ladies and gentlemen, here is the cap.

Captain Fat Hands (1:53)

It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling the friends.

Nick (2:01)

Today we are bubbling over with joy featuring Augusta Peach Wheat by the Fun brewers at Sibling Revelry Brewing Company. This is a wheat ale with natural peach flavor. The folks at Sibling Rivalry Brewing say this beer is as complex as Amen Corner. I say I don't want too much fruit in my beer in this one and has just the right amount of Peach Garage Grade three and three quarter bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to our good friends that helped us fill up the old garage fridge for this week's show. First up, we have a cheers to Jen from Santa Cruz, California.

Captain Fat Hands (2:42)

And a big we like your chip goes out to Karen from Omaha, Nebraska.

Nick (2:45)

Here's a cheers to Caitlin from Princeton and that's in Texas.

Captain Fat Hands (2:50)

And a big talk ins in the air to Andrea from Virginia Beach.

Nick (2:55)

Here we go, Captain. Here's a cheers to Sarah Robertson. She's in Perth, Western Australia. And last but certainly not least, we're going to stay in Australia to give a cheers to Ryan from Blackwater Kingsland. Everybody we just mentioned went to true crime garage.com and helped us out with this week's beer fund for the Beer run. And for that we thank you.

Cheryl McCollum (14:43)

Well, I wanted to talk to Dr. Priya Banerji for sure. I mean, she's a pathologist. I'm not. So I wanted somebody at that level to just break down for me those stab wounds. Could you possibly, as the coup de grace, stab yourself in the chest four inches deep? And I want your listeners to understand the way my mind works. If you hit your elbow hard enough, you know how your hand just feels numb for a second, you start stabbing yourself between vertebrae. I don't know that you're going to be able to do that. So I needed somebody to tell me, with those injuries, could that even be possible? And then, of course, you know, Joe Scott Morgan and Joshua Schiffer. I mean, there were several people that I wanted to talk to, especially Joshua, being a defense attorney, if you as a defense attorney are going to tell me there's Problems with this case being a suicide. Now we're getting somewhere, right? But you know, I go back to when I teach at the academy, and y', all, there's something we always do with rookies. And we tell them, look, you know, there's three teens in a park. Several witnesses see them, they're walking around, they go down by the lake, they're sitting on a picnic table. One's wearing a green shirt, one's wearing a black shirt, one's wearing a blue shirt. Now, according to the teen in the black shirt, around 4:30, a teen that's wearing the green shirt says, hey, I'm headed home. My mom's making my favorite meal. See you tomorrow at school. Then closer to 5 o', clock, the teen wearing the blue shirt says, oh, I just got a text message. My girlfriend's mom has left for work for the night shift. There ain't a parent in the house. I'm gonna go visit her from the group. How many teens are left in the park? And the rookies always say, 1. The kid wearing the black shirt. Well, the answer is, you don't know. You don't know that either one of those boys left the park. You know, somebody told you that. So on this case, with that same frame in mind, when I read that in the police report and it's been stated all over the place, no forced entry. No forced entry. Yet the boyfriend broke down the door. Well, both of those things can't be true. So the problem with somebody in law enforcement writing in the report, no forced entry right out of the gate, that tells me they accepted somebody's version of what happened, not their investigation. Because if they had done an investigation, it would have never said no forced in.

Cheryl McCollum (44:58)

They relied on him. He says, I left at this time to go to the gym. I was there this amount of time. I returned home. That's your window. That's your only window. Now, if he killed her an hour or two before the gym, then went to the gym, then staged this whole thing. Okay, that's going to be a little more difficult. The temperature is going to matter. Being inside is going to matter, all of that. But my issue for everybody that was at that scene, if you look at the reports, if you look at the news that came out, what did we know about her? Quick, we knew suicide, we knew mental issues, she stabbed herself. That's what we were told. Because that's what they were told. But that should not be in a report as though it is fact. Just like you don't know if that boy went home to have his mama's cooking or if he went down the road and was smoking weed. You don't know if the other one went home to be with his girlfriend because her parents weren't home or if he were kidnapped. You don't know. All you know is what one person told you. They left about 30 minutes apart to go two different places. You don't know if they ever left the park. I don't know that she killed herself. She didn't write a note, she didn't call her mama, she didn't tell her friends. She didn't give things away. Not that every suicide has to do that. My point is, I don't have evidence that she did that. I have a body with 20 plus stab wounds and approximately 25 plus bruises. And I have never in 44 years seen it. So I'm not going to accept it until I've got evidence to accept it. The stab wounds in the back, what trajectory were they at? Does that make sense? Can we put, you know, after everything is done and everything is swabbed, can we see exactly how they entered? Did she do it going upwards or downwards or from the side? You've got to explain to me how she managed to do that. Was it one handed with two hands? Can I get a knife the exact same size and reach every one of those places myself? What's the length of her arm? I mean, I've got to know that. And let me just say this too, for everybody listening. I've worked a bunch of homicides and I've worked a bunch of suicides. Before you sit down with a mama and a daddy, you better know every thing. You better be able to prove it to them 14 different ways that this is what happened. They are going to have a difficult time accepting this. Even if the child has said they were going to do it. Told them time and again they don't want to live. Told them they were going to take their own life. It is still difficult. But if you have a child that has never said that, does not have depression to the point that it ever crossed your mind that they would harm themselves, you can't sit with them and go, yeah, you know, I'm so sorry this has happened. My condolences. But I've got, you know, 20 stab wounds and 30 bruises and she did it herself. That ain't gonna cut it, honey, at all.

Nick (65:21)

Back to the crime scene as well. We. I had talked with a retired FBI agent, and there was a serial homicide offender on the loose in the early 90s in the Chicago area. And together we were taking a look at one of the crime scenes, and he showed me three Polaroids from one of the homicide scenes. One was a set of stairs that had some blood on it that was leading up to the location where the body was found. There was a picture of the body as it was discovered with. Covered by a, like, old, dirty blanket. And then a picture of the victim, the rotting corpse that was lying partially under this blanket, now fully exposed. In this last picture, he says to me, nick, I want you to take a look at these and tell me what evidence you see. And also if you have any questions. And I said, well, before we get to the evidence, my first question is, why aren't there more pictures? And he goes, exactly. He goes, that's the problem. We're handed this case by by Chicago pd. We get three Polaroids from a homicide scene. We goes, we. We. Unless it's something that we captured in one of these three pictures, we got very little to work with. And this to me is you do your due diligence, even if you're going into this place and you think. You walk away thinking it is a suicide. Where's the pictures of. Of Samuel's fingers, of his hands, of his forearms, clothing of his clothing? We. And. And then to. To hone in on something that you had said early in our conversation here, Cheryl. And the captain touched on it as well. What I'm also not hearing in a lot of these reports are seeing in these. A lot of these reports is an investigation that took place outside of the four walls of their apartment, right? You. You have this whole building that is. That's your crime scene. Your crime scene isn't just their apartment. It's this entire building. Do the three of us agree? I mean, the latch, the swing latch on the door is essentially his alibi. There is a report that there was activity on her laptop within 60 to 90 seconds after he's seen on surveillance about the same time he's entering the gym. So he would have already made his way downstairs. Now he's entering the gym, and there was some activity on her laptop at that time. I don't know exactly what that activity is, but it's only stated as activity. So those two things would be his alibi in support the. The story that she was alone in that apartment at the time. But do the three of us agree that whatever happened if. If she did not kill herself, if she didn't stab herself 20 times, do we agree that it happened before 4:45 when he seen entering the gym? Because there, there are a few folks that I've talked to and said, well, he could have come back up there, bust down the door and then killed her.

Cheryl McCollum (68:50)

100%. That's why I said that he'd go to the gym to get the blood off of him. Part of the thing is, you know, you've got a security guard. You've got cameras somewhere on the outside or in the lobby. You've got the latch, allegedly. So you're pretty much letting me accept that somebody stranger didn't come in and out of there unseen. They don't have the fire escape. I mean, how did this person get in and out? Right. But with him, we don't have what I would like to have. So remember Drew Peterson when his wife Kathleen was found in the dry bathtub, he went and got a neighbor. The neighbor's the one that called 911. Well, was the fiance going to get the security guard so the security guard could find her? I don't know. I want that answered. Why wouldn't they go with him? Why wouldn't the super or whoever come up and help unlock the door? I don't know. Did they not believe him or did he not try to get them? I don't know. They haven't released enough so that I can make the right call. I'm saying, though, you've got two parents that are going to burn through every dime they have to get justice for their child because they don't accept it. You have got a slew of experts that are well respected, that understand crime and crime scenes, that understand autopsies, that understand suicide, that have not accepted this. So there needs to be more done on the front end. And this should be one of those cases. Just like Karen Reid is one of those cases, just like O.J. simpson is one of those cases. If you want to show law enforcement how 10 years of their life can be wrapped into something where somebody at the grocery store thinks they screwed it up, here you go. So you better take one more second, 10 more minutes, another hour before you walk out and feel confident that you're looking at a suicide. When somebody comes to you as a police detective and says, detective, couple questions. Have you ever seen a suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds? Yes or no? No. Have you ever seen a suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds that also had 25 plus bruises? No. Nothing further. You ain't seen it. Then why are you putting that on the front page of the paper? Because you can't articulate how you got there.

Cheryl McCollum (78:32)

Well, I guess one would have to be 9 11, because during 9 11, I was sent to the Pentagon and my sister was diverted to Gander. And there was a constable in Canada that made sure she was safe and had some fun while she was stranded there. So the good people of Gander have been kind of a remarkable story in my life. So I say that one and the Olympic park bombing, because I was in charge of the crisis response team, which nobody would have ever known or cared about except we had a bomb. And, you know, what kind of transpired there for me was pretty career changing. And the love and just devotion that I have to Fallon, whose mother, Alice Hawthorne, was killed in that blast, is something that means a lot to me. And then I would say the last one is probably Melissa Wolfenberger. And I have just written a book about that case because it was so crazy that this has never happened in history, y', all, that a serial killer becomes a true victim of crime when his daughter is brutally murdered. And he reached out to law enforcement and then reached out to me for help solving his daughter's murder. So that book is called Swans Don't Swim in a Sewer. And that phrase I learned from Nancy Grace back in the day. Cause we were driving around all the trap houses and crack houses looking for a victim that if she didn't make it to court, this guy was going to walk out. And the rookie driving us around all these places was getting a little irritated that we were just going to one horrible situation after the other looking for her. And he's like, why in the world are we doing this? You know, why don't we go look in better places? And Nancy was trying to explain to him, where do you think she's going to be? She's a crackhead. That is our victim, and she was brutally attacked. But if we don't find her, this person is going to be out there to hurt again. And she said, swans don't swim in a sewer. Of course, we have to go to pimps and drug dealers and other violent people. So in order to try to help solve this case, I had to use a killer to catch a killer.