Hate American Made ////// Ruby Ridge

Summary

True Crime Garage: "Hate American Made ////// Ruby Ridge"

Release Date: April 2, 2025

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Introduction to Ruby Ridge

In the gripping episode titled "Hate American Made ////// Ruby Ridge," hosts Nic and the Captain delve deep into one of America's most controversial and tragic true crime cases. Ruby Ridge stands as a stark example of governmental overreach and the dire consequences of miscommunication between law enforcement and civilians.

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The Weaver Family Background

The story begins with Claude "Randy" Weaver and his wife, Vicki Weaver, both raised in conservative Christian households in Iowa. Born on January 3, 1948, Randy was a dedicated family man who served in the armed forces during the Vietnam War era, reportedly earning the title of a former Green Beret. Vicki, born Victoria Jean Jordanson on June 20, 1949, was known for her gentle and creative nature, actively involved in the 4H Club.

In 1971, after Randy's honorable discharge from the army, the couple married and began to adopt increasingly radical religious beliefs. Convinced that the end times were imminent, Vicki prophesied visions that led them to relocate to Boundary County, Idaho, in 1983. They purchased a secluded 20-acre property in the Selkirk Mountains, building their cabin on what would become known as Ruby Ridge.

Nick [00:07]: "Hate by an unspeakable act is so little hope left."

Captain [00:20]: "More than 80 people dead bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City."

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Kevin Harris and Neighborly Conflicts

The Weaver family, striving for self-sufficiency, took in a troubled teenager named Kevin Harris. Kevin, grappling with personal issues, found solace with the Weavers, who provided him with stability. Their isolated lifestyle included homeschooling their three children and cultivating their land, which bred tensions with neighboring property owners.

A significant conflict arose with neighbor Terry Kinison over a disputed $3,000 land deal. After losing a lawsuit to Randy Weaver, Kinison accused Randy of making threats against prominent figures like Pope John Paul II and President Ronald Reagan, leading to federal investigations beginning in 1985.

Captain [06:51]: "Well, that's a lot to take in."

Nick [07:40]: "We’re fighting for God against zog."

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Government Investigation and Indictment

Amidst rising anti-government sentiments in the region, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) became involved after undercover operations suggested Randy Weaver was involved with extremist groups and possessed illegal firearms. In October 1989, the ATF indicted Weaver for making and possessing illegal firearms, setting the stage for future confrontations.

Nick [15:48]: "They really wanted to live out there, build their family and be left alone."

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Miscommunication and Failure to Appear in Court

In 1991, a critical miscommunication occurred when a court date change was sent to Weaver's representation instead of Randy directly. The letter erroneously stated the new trial date as March 20 instead of February 20, leading Randy to miss his court appearance. This oversight prompted the U.S. Marshals Service to issue a bench warrant for his arrest, escalating tensions further.

Nick [29:23]: "Now look, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes here to figure out since they told him the wrong date one month later, Randy Weaver did not show up to court on February 20."

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Standoff at Ruby Ridge

On August 17, 1992, the U.S. Marshals' Special Operations Group (SOG) established a command post near the Weaver property to assess the family's threat level. Negotiations failed as the Weavers refused to surrender, leading to an intense 11-day standoff.

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Initial Shots and Casualties

On August 21, 1992, a clash occurred between the Marshals and the Weaver family. Reports remain conflicting regarding who fired the first shot. Tragically, three lives were lost:

1. Deputy Marshall William Degan was killed during the initial exchange.
2. Sammy Weaver, Randy's 14-year-old son, was fatally wounded.
3. Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife, was killed by a stray bullet intended for Kevin Harris.

Nick [38:10]: "I don't know that we've ever figured out who fired the first shot."

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Federal Agencies' Response and Escalation

In response to the escalating violence, multiple federal agencies, including the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, intervened with armored tanks and helicopters. The FBI revised its rules of engagement, allowing agents to use deadly force against any perceived threat, significantly heightening the intensity of the situation.

Nick [42:10]: "We have the irs. There is no law that states an individual has to pay taxes."

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Rules of Engagement and Final Confrontation

Operating under the amended rules, an FBI sniper positioned 200 yards away fired two fatal shots:

1. Randy Weaver was wounded.
2. Vicki Weaver was killed as she stood in the doorway with her 10-month-old daughter.

Negotiations continued amidst mounting chaos, leading to increased pressure on the Weaver family. Eventually, Beau Gertz, a former Green Beret aligned with the Weavers' beliefs, successfully negotiated their surrender on August 31, 1992.

Nick [44:35]: "And to me that's."

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Trial and Verdict

The trial commenced in April 1993, coinciding with the aftermath of the Waco siege. Despite the prosecution's extensive witness list, defense attorney Jerry Spence called no witnesses. The jury concluded that the Marshals fired the first shot, leading to the deaths of the Weavers' dog, son, and wife. Ultimately:

• Kevin Harris was acquitted of all charges.
• Randy Weaver was acquitted of felony charges but convicted of failing to appear in court and bail violations, receiving an 18-month sentence (though he had already served 14 months).

Captain [50:16]: "I don't agree with some of the thoughts or ideology of the Weavers, but it doesn't seem like they were posing any threat to the community."

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Aftermath and Legal Settlements

In December 1993, Randy Weaver and his surviving children relocated to Montana, filing a lawsuit against the federal government. In 1995, the government settled for $100,000 to Randy and $1 million to each of his three daughters. Kevin Harris later received a $380,000 settlement in 1998.

Investigations into the incident revealed misconduct and excessive force by federal agents. Although charges against the FBI sniper responsible for Vicki Weaver's death were initially dismissed, they were eventually dropped in 2001 due to time constraints.

Nick [58:03]: "The jury ultimately found for the defense acquitting Kevin Harris outright on all accounts."

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Legacy and Conclusion

The Ruby Ridge tragedy raises enduring questions about the balance between governmental authority and individual rights. Public sentiment largely viewed the Weavers as victims of excessive government force, highlighting the critical need for better communication and restraint in law enforcement operations.

Randy Weaver's death in May 2022 served as a poignant reminder of the lasting impact of Ruby Ridge. The episode concludes with reflections on the case's lessons, urging listeners to remember the fragile boundary between maintaining order and preserving personal freedoms.

Nick [61:00]: "The tragedy at Ruby Ridge poses an age-old question. Was self-described white separatist Randy Weaver a radical right-wing extremist or the victim of blatant and egregious governmental overreach resulting in disastrous consequences?"

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Notable Quotes

• Nick [00:07]: "Hate by an unspeakable act is so little hope left."
• Captain [06:51]: "Well, that's a lot to take in."
• Nick [29:23]: "You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes here to figure out since they told him the wrong date one month later, Randy Weaver did not show up to court on February 20."
• Captain [50:16]: "I don't agree with some of the thoughts or ideology of the Weavers, but it doesn't seem like they were posing any threat to the community."

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Conclusion

The Ruby Ridge incident remains a powerful narrative of misunderstanding, fear, and the tragic loss of innocent lives. "True Crime Garage" masterfully unpacks the complex layers of this case, offering listeners a comprehensive look into the events that forever changed perceptions of government authority in America.

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For more detailed discussions and true crime stories, subscribe to True Crime Garage on your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Nick]

By an unspeakable act. 8 the apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more anti government groups David Koresh Ruby ridge Siege Timothy.

[Captain]

McVeigh More than 80 people dead bombed.

[Nick]

A federal building in Oklahoma City. Hate by an unspeakable act is so little hope left. The standoff at Ruby ridge was an August 1992 siege of a modest cabin belonging to the Weaver family in Boundary County, Idaho. It is said to have been the spark that ignited the American extremist far right wing militia movement. It gained momentum in the 1990s when over 100 government officials swarmed the mountaintop retreat of a family of three adults and four children to evaluate the supposed threat they posed. Unimaginable chaos and bloodshed would ensue. After an 11 day siege, three people would be dead, including a child and a law enforcement officer. Two more would be wounded, a family would be shattered and a community would be outraged and scarred. This incident, along with the tragic events at Waco, Texas which would occur the following year, would be the catalyst of an ongoing movement comprised of extremist militia groups which include, among others, survivalists, nationalists, white separatists, neo Nazis and white supremacists, all who continue to view themselves as defenders of traditional freedoms against perceived government oppression. It is worth considering that if the events at Ruby Ridge in Waco were had been more effectively handled by those in charge, America could be shaped quite differently today. This is the standoff at Ruby Ridge. This is true crime Garage Foreign Claude Weaver, commonly known as Randy, was born on January 3, 1948. He grew up in the small conservative religious farming community of Villisca, Iowa, as one of four children to Wilma and Clarence, Clarence was a feed salesman. Growing up, Randy and his siblings were exposed to a variety of Christian fundamentalist teachings as the Weaver parents explored many different sects within the Christian faith while trying to determine the proper fit for their family. Although the Weaver family was undoubtedly religious and could be described as conservative evangelical Christians, they would not be viewed as extremist or radical. Randy attended Jefferson High School where he excelled in sports, particularly football and baseball. Vicki Weaver was born Victoria Jean Jordanson on June 20, 1949 and grew up on a farm near Fort Dodge, Iowa. She too came from a conservative Christian religious background. Her family were members of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints. Vicki's family frowned upon drinking or swearing, but they were not extreme fundamentalist zealots, just God fearing residents of their small town farming community. Known for her gentle and creative nature, Vicki enjoyed Making crafts and was particularly skilled at sewing. She was also an active member of the 4H Club. Following his graduation from Jefferson High School in 1966, Randy attended Iowa Central Community College for a few years. Then in 1968, he left college to enlist in the armed forces. Against the divisive and turbulent backdrop of the Vietnam war unfolding overseas, Randy found himself stationed at Fort Bragg in North Carolina, Much to his disappointment. Nevertheless, he excelled as a soldier, gaining significant skills and training. Many sources reference him as a former Green Beret, Though the exact timeline of his association with that elite unit remains uncertain. In 1970, while on leave and visiting his hometown, Randy reconnected with Vicki Jean Jordison, A former college girlfriend of his. Similarly raised in fundamentalist Christian households, the couple's relationship quickly became serious. Randy and Vicki married in November of 1971 in a ceremony at the First Congressional Church in Fort Dodge, Iowa. A month prior, on October 8th, Randy had been honorably discharged from the army at the rank of sergeant. Convinced that this ongoing strife is a sign that end times are coming, Vicki's beliefs had made a hard right turn as she delved deeper into the Bible, Anticipating the apocalypse. Sharing these increasingly extreme fundamentalist Christian beliefs with Randy, she speaks of a reoccurring vision that she is having. She prophesies that their family will only be safe if they leave Iowa and build a house on a hill, which she envisions as their glorious mountaintop retreat. It is here where they will be protected from the what she would eventually refer to as zog, the Zionist organized government. Or as she would put it, a Jewish run government and the corrupt civilization in which they were currently existing.

[Captain]

Well, that's a lot to take in.

[Nick]

We're fighting for God against zog, but.

[Captain]

We'Re also afraid of God and zog. Yes.

[Nick]

Increasingly influenced by Vicki's zealotry and a steadily progressing mistrust of the government, Randy joins his his wife in her radical views. The couple become full blown religious extremists, convinced that the biblical end times are near. Now serious about bringing Vicki's vision into reality, Randy begins accumulating guns and weapons as he believes he will need these guns and weapons to eventually keep his family safe when the end times begin.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So in preparation of this now survivalist lifestyle, Vicki began studying farming and gardening techniques to become self sufficient. And Randy began amassing weapons to protect his family. Now fully convinced of impending doom, biblical end times, and harboring a deep mounting mistrust of the federal government, the Weaver family relocated to the state of Idaho. This. In 1983, they settled in Boundary county, purchasing a property for $5,000. Located on an isolated, beautiful hilltop in the Selkirk Mountains overlooking Ruby Creek. Then in 1984, Randy, with his own hands, built their home. This was a small but well built cabin constructed, constructed of plywood and scrap lumber on Ruby Ridge, adding several outbuildings on their 20 acre property. After completing the main structure, the family eagerly embraced a survivalist lifestyle. Growing vegetables, homeschooling the children and skewing taxes and other types of governmental interference.

[Captain]

See, I can get behind some of this stuff. Hey, let's get 20 acres. Sounds good to me.

[Nick]

I would love 20 acres.

[Captain]

Let's build our dream house.

[Nick]

Sure. On a hilltop. I would love that.

[Captain]

Let's. Let's name it Ruby Ridge. That's great.

[Nick]

I even like the collecting of the guns.

[Captain]

Well, you know, teach their own. I was going to say, hey, we're going to have our own garden.

[Nick]

Oh, I like that too.

[Captain]

Fruits and vegetables. Now, homeschooling kids, that seems like a nightmare. But I guess if you're far enough.

[Nick]

Out, I recently planted an apple tree in the backyard, so maybe I'm on my way. Way.

[Captain]

You're on your way. You're just gonna have to start having visions of the end time and eschewing taxes again. Like I said, all these guys are idiots because they should know the end times are going to happen in Pawnee and we got to look out for the. The Lizard Lord Zorp.

[Nick]

Randy had even included what he referred to as a 300 yard radius air quotes kill zone on the property. Okay. And look, this is not the kind of thing you want to start telling your neighbors. But he told locals that anyone breaching his 300 yard radius kill zone would suffer the consequences of death. In the late 80s and early 90s in the rural area, a lot of rural areas, but included in this is Boundary county where they are living. There was an emerging movement of anti governmental sentiment leading to the formation of various survivalist nationalists and militia groups. The law of the land in this region was the Boundary County Sheriff. With locals persistently ignoring federal and even state decrees. Randy and Vicki, who had become increasingly extremist, unapologetically identified as white separatists, as did many of their neighbors. And while the Weavers didn't consider themselves to be white supremacists or members of the Aryan Nation, they weren't necessarily opposed to mingling with them at local gatherings. Now the Weavers moved up and set up their family cabin and camp at what was called Ruby Ridge. Sometime later, the family takes in a young man named Kevin Harris. He's a teenager at the time who had experienced a rough upbringing and a deeply troubled home life.

[Captain]

But it didn't seem like they were trying to build a community, really. It seemed like they wanted to have their own land. And you can see how some of these people start diving into this. We have the irs. There is no law that states an individual has to pay taxes. But they can put you in jail if you don't pay taxes. And then property taxes, I think a lot of people find to be a joke. Because you own the property, you own the house, and you're forced to pay a tax on something you already own.

[Nick]

And in many places, if you make improvements to that property, you have to pay additional taxes.

[Captain]

Yeah. So the nicer I make it, the more I have to pay you. But I own the land.

[Nick]

That's why my place is a real shithole.

[Captain]

That's why I go around and break shit all the time.

[Nick]

The county auditor is listening. My place is a dump.

[Captain]

This is a real dumb.

[Nick]

But I do have that apple tree.

[Captain]

But so you can see how. And then if you have your own land, like 20 acres, you don't want anybody. You don't want the sheriff. You're not buying those 20 acres to have an HOA fee.

[Nick]

They really wanted to live out there, build their family and be left alone. Is really my feel of this whole situation. Now, as for bringing in this teenager with the deeply troubled upbringing. Right. This, to me, just appears to be a good deed. So this kid, Kevin Harris, teenager at the time when he kind of gets taken under the wing of Randy Weaver. So this guy, his father had died when he was only two years old. And Kevin's young mother was unable to cope with raising children without the father being there.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So this kid is rudderless, and he is growing into his teenage years. And he starts to get in trouble. And he starts to struggle with things like drugs. So Randy met Kevin through friends in the mid-80s. And his heart went out to this fatherless young man. And Kevin was seeking a positive influence.

[Captain]

But also the family probably needed extra help for what they were trying to build.

[Nick]

Possibly. But my understanding here is that the early part of this relationship. There were no formal arrangements that were made that Kevin Harris had free access to come and stay at the property when he chose to do so, coming and going as he pleased. But eventually he will basically move in with the Weaver family. And then as this relationship carries on, he's ultimately viewed as a member of the household. Now, I wish I could tell you that they lived a quiet life, didn't bother anyone, and nobody bothered them. But that wasn't the case. Ruby ridge was up on a hillside above ruby creek, Opposite caribou ridge, which was another property. Now, in 1984, Randy Weaver and one of his neighbors, this is Terry Kinison, Had a dispute over a $3,000 land deal. Kenison lost the ensuing lawsuit, and on top of the $3,000, Kenison was ordered to pay Randy Weaver an additional $2,100 in court cost and damages. So this neighbor, Terry kennison, Was now into Randy Weaver for $5,100. And I've got to believe that this was some sort of retaliation. But what the neighbor did was he started writing letters to the FBI, the secret service, and the county sheriff, Alleging that Randy Weaver had openly threatened to kill pope John Paul ii, President Ronald Reagan, and the governor of Idaho. In 1985, the FBI and the Secret service Decided to launch investigations into these allegations that randy Weaver had made threats Against Ronald Reagan and other government officials.

[Captain]

Well, we know that the Weavers have land, and we also know that he's collecting firearms.

[Nick]

And thus, if these threats are real, if he did make them, Then you have to take them seriously. In February of 85, the Weavers were interviewed by FBI agents, Secret Service agents, and the boundary county sheriff. The secret service had been told that the. That Randy Weaver was a member of aryan nations and that he had a large cache of firearms at his residence.

[Captain]

But like you said, that connection wasn't true because they weren't white supremacists. But maybe they just dealt with other.

[Nick]

I don't see that's a troubling thing with this story. So you could look at it a couple different ways. Where people on the outside that didn't know Randy Weaver and didn't know the family. I think you could easily believe that maybe he was a member of the aryan nations or other. Other extremist groups. Because from the outside, it might give the appearance of such. Because he is associating with people that are members of these other groups right now, if you knew him real well, Then you might just go, well, he. He just happens to know these people, and he's friendly with these people. Now, I. I also want. And I don't want Every resident Of the great state of Idaho to come after yours truly here. But if you go back in time, and especially in this region, There were a lot of people that were involved in those types of groups or associated with people that Were involved with those groups. So this is not like an incredibly rare thing here in that area at the time.

[Captain]

Well, and sometimes with these extremist groups in your community, you might not agree with anything that they believe in, but by going against them, all you're causing is trouble for yourself.

[Nick]

Well, and here is something that's not going to look favorably upon Randy Weaver and his family. So Weaver denies that he's a member of the Aryan nations or any of these extremist groups. When he's interviewed by the different government agencies. He also denies the allegations that he has a large cache of firearms. And again, that's a pretty general term where it's open for interpretation.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Your opinion of a large arsenal of firearms might be different than my opinion of a large arsenal of firearms. Where some people might say, oh, that guy's got. He's got like eight or nine guns.

[Captain]

That's a great big collection.

[Nick]

To some people, that's a huge collection. And to gun collectors, that's not even a real collection at all.

[Captain]

Yeah, and I know this, being a guitar collector, I mean, for some people, they. They see a handful of my guitars and they go, you have a problem. And I go, you haven't seen the other room yet.

[Nick]

Now, what they could determine was that on at least three or four occasions, the Weavers did attend Aryan nations meetings at Hayden lake, Idaho. Remember, Hayden lake, Idaho, is a location that we talked about when we covered Richard Snell and those late night meetings that were reportedly going on about attempting to. Wanting to overthrow the government and destroy large federal buildings. So no doubt, if they're attending these, let's say, meetings, I'm going to use air quotes here to say meetings.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Because these could simply be gatherings, and this could be simply their way of socializing. I know that sounds very strange. It's not a place that I would ever choose to socialize in. But this is not Hayden lake, Idaho. It's difficult to say what their intentions are in attending these meetings or if they're just. They're just gathering and socializing.

[Captain]

The rumor was that they brewed a mean cup of coffee and had great cheese danishes.

[Nick]

Well, and. But I think it's also very easy for one to see this, observe this activity, or be made aware of this activity and go, well, these guys are extremists.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

This, they could be a violent militia type. The investigation did note that Randy Weaver associated with members of the covenant, the sword, and the arm of the lord. Randy and Vicki Weaver filed an affidavit with the county Courthouse alleging that their personal enemies were plotting to provoke the FBI into attacking and, and maybe even killing the Weaver family. Basically they're saying this guy made all this stuff up. Claim that we made all these horrible threats against these people in power. And now we're being investigated and really we've not done any of this activity. This guy is just full on revenge against us and my family.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

On May 6th of that same year, the Weavers sent President Ronald Reagan a letter claiming that their enemies may have sent Reagan a threatening letter forging Randy's signature. Years later, in 1992, the prosecutor cited the 1985 letter as an overt act of the Weaver family conspiracy against the federal government. Now we have the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the atf. They first become aware of Randy Weaver and his family in July of 1986, when he was introduced to a confidential ATF informant at a meeting at the World Aryan Congress. The informant portrayed himself as a weapons dealer working with motorcycle gangs. Over the next couple of years, Weaver and this informant, they did meet several times. And In July of 1989, Randy Weaver invited this informant to his home to discuss forming a group to fight the Zionist Organized Government, or ZOG, referring to the United States government. In October of 89, the ATF claimed that Weaver sold the informant to sawed off shotguns with an overall length of the guns shorter than the limit set by the federal law. So the ATF is saying, we did a sting operation. This guy was dumb enough to sell some illegal firearms to our officer who was undercover. So Randy Weaver was indicted for making and possessing illegal firearms. This is now 1990. Do note though, he wasn't charged with selling them, Just charged with making and possessing illegal firearms. On February 5, 1991, Randy Weaver's trial date was changed. And this could be really a huge domino here, Captain. This could be something that really started the fire.

[Captain]

Well, we know it wasn't Billy Joel.

[Nick]

Randy Weaver's trial date was changed to February 20. The clerk of court sent letters to different parties to inform them of the date change of Randy Weaver's court appearance. However, for whatever reason, they didn't send a letter directly to Randy Weaver. They sent a letter to his representation. So now the representation is in charge of informing Randy Weaver that the court date has changed to February 20th. When Randy Weaver receives correspondence telling him of the date change. The letter he receives erroneously says that Randy Weaver's trial date was March 20th. One month later. You all know what speed dating is, right? Well, if you're the owner of a growing business. What if there was a feature like speed dating only for hiring? In other words, you could meet several interested qualified candidates at once, all at a designated time. Well, there's good news because there is such a Service. It's called Zip Intro from ZipRecruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all of the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Then you can choose who you want to talk to and meet with great people as soon as the next day. It's so easy. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com Garage Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Garage Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.

[Captain]

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[Nick]

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[Nick]

Cheers to you, Captain. Now look, you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes here to figure out since they told him the wrong date one month later, Randy Weaver did not show up to court on February 20. And this started the next domino, which they put out a bench warrant for Randy Weaver and his failure to appear in court around the same time in early 1991. This is kind of throwing gasoline on the fire. There was a letter that was sent to the U.S. attorney in early 1991 from the Weaver family, specifically Vicki Weaver, Randy's wife And in the letter, Vicki promised that they, meaning the Weaver family, quote, will not bow to your evil commandments. Whether we live or whether we die. End quote. Not really a threat, but it sounds quite threatening.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Now, because he failed to appear in court, this gets the US Marshals Service involved in the whole situation. They were now responsible to arrest and bring in Randy Weaver. But they're checking up and asking around about him. And the intel that they are getting is telling them that the Weavers had a lot of guns. And that they were incredibly hostile. That they would not be. Randy Weaver would not be taken easily. So the US Marshals brought in the service's Special Operations Group to watch and surveil the Weavers. Now, I found this incredibly strange and odd here, Captain, that all this talk and fear of zog.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

But the Marshals Service, they do abbreviate the service's Special Operations Group as sog. So while Vicki Weaver was having all these visions and dreams. That her family needs to be afraid of ZOG and hide out in the hills and live a survivalist lifestyle, I found it very strange that it wasn't ZOG that was coming for them. It was some form of zog, if you will. I'm just kind of tongue in cheek saying that. But it was SOG that ultimately would be coming after the Weavers. No.

[Captain]

And I believe in this stuff. I believe, especially people that have recurring dreams. It becomes, well, did you have the reoccurring dreams. Because something bad was going to happen? Or did the reoccurring dreams help facilitate the bad thing happening?

[Nick]

Speak of the devil and he shall appear.

[Captain]

Right. And I believe that. I believe if you're negative, you're going to attract negativity. If you're positive, you'll attract positivity. That's why we say, be good and be kind.

[Nick]

That's right. Good vibes in the garage.

[Captain]

Good vibes, brother.

[Nick]

It's easy when you got a lot.

[Captain]

Of beer or other stuff.

[Nick]

So we talked briefly about the Marshal Service. The U.S. marshal Service surveilling the Weavers, which they did for the better part of 1992. Gathering information on the family. Plus the family friend, Kevin Harris, who was living on the property with the Weaver family.

[Captain]

Yeah, but my problem with this whole scenario is it doesn't seem like any members of the Weavers have, like, a criminal history. And the father, like you said, he. He served in Vietnam, right?

[Nick]

No, I don't believe he was ever called to action. He enlisted while Vietnam was ongoing.

[Captain]

But either way, he's. He's a.

[Nick]

He attempted to serve his country.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[Captain]

Well, I mean, you serve your country once you sign up, whether you serve in just a department or at a base locally or you, you actually fight in a war, you're still serving your country.

[Nick]

Yes, you can be called at any time.

[Captain]

So do you think it's just these quote unquote, he said, she said threats?

[Nick]

Well, let's review this because this is, you're sharing a lot of what I am feeling about this part of the story.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So what you have here is there's mounting pressure for the federal agents to take some form of action. So at some point they're going to decide to make a move. Now, on August 17, 1992, US Marshals SOG team gathered at Sandpoint, Idaho to establish a command post, this up on the, on the Sweetser Mountain. The intention was to more closely survey the family, to assess their threat level to the public. Over the next few months, agencies considered various plans to couple Randy to surrender. It was important to remember that Randy's only offenses were selling two modified shotguns and failing to appear in court. So this reaction, so overkill seemed ludicrously disproportionate considering Randy was not a dangerous arms dealer. He was simply a religious zealot with a belief in white separatism and a deep mistrust of the federal government.

[Captain]

Yeah, but don't you think that law enforcement could have just made contact with him and to say, hey, you missed your, your trial date, your court date. Yes, because if they would have just made contact and they didn't have to make contact to him directly, they could have made contact to his lawyer.

[Nick]

It's an overreaction, is an understatement. And, but beyond that, there are things that the, the Weavers are also doing things that don't.

[Captain]

I mean, they're not paying their taxes.

[Nick]

Right. They're, they're doing things that don't. They are suggestive that they are what the, the government agencies fear that they are.

[Captain]

Right. But, but by having that fear, you could sometimes see things that aren't there.

[Nick]

Exactly. Now they're going to decide to make their move. This the US Marshals. Due to favorable weather conditions on August 21st, the SOG team members proceeded up the mountain toward the Weaver cabin to confront the family of three adults and four children. Agents were heavily armed with M16 rifles, a sniper rifle, a shotgun, and a suppressed 9 millimeter Colt carbine, along with their personal service weapons. In the early hours of August 21, 1992, the SOG team, armed and camouflaged approached the Weaver's cabin on Ruby Ridge. They proceeded further up the mountain trail to a fork in the woods and decided to split into two three man teams. So they got a unit of six going up there. Now they're going to split into two three man teams. One group is called the observation post Op. They went left to set up surveillance about half a mile from the structure in which the Weaver family's living the cabin. Meanwhile, the recon or reconnaissance team, they were going to approach the cabin from the right side. But stopping about 250 to 300 yards from the Weaver's driveway at approximately 10:15am the teams have exchanged information but they captured the attention of the family dog. So they got to their positions where they wanted to be positioned. They've radioed each other to let them know, hey, we're, we're all in position here. But while this is going on, the dogs, the Weavers dogs are now aware that there's movement on the property. Dogs don't typically like that. They tend to start barking and making a lot of noise. Which alerted, ultimately alerted Randy and Kevin and Randy's son Sammy to the presence of someone the US Marshals being on their property. So Randy decides to go in one direction, sending Kevin and Sammy, led by the Weaver's yellow lab named Stryker, off in a different direction. So Kevin and the son Sammy and the dog, they run off to where the recon team had positioned themselves. This is going to start a confrontation. Both groups are armed. Now I cannot say this loudly enough. There are conflicting reports on who fired the first shot.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

I don't know that we've ever figured out who fired the first shot. But you want to talk about domino effect, this is a one hell of a domino here. Somebody fired a shot.

[Captain]

I don't know if it's a man thing or mainly a man thing, but I had a lot of friends growing up where we're like, hey, you know, it'd be great to have 5 acres or 10 acres. And I always thought one of the bonuses of having land was whoever's there should be there and people that aren't supposed to be there, you know, very quickly. Like where in a neighborhood if somebody walks through your neighbor's yard, you don't, you know, right away. You might not know if it's the neighbor or if it's the neighbor's son or it's a family friend, you know what I mean? But if you own a bunch of land and somebody is on your property at night, you know, they're not supposed to be there. And so you have this situation where you have law enforcement coming up on a family that in their eyes they've done nothing wrong. He hasn't missed a court date in his eyes, and he doesn't know that they're being surveilled by law enforcement. So this is a tricky situation because if somebody's showing up to your property armed with fatigues on, you would think on some level he has the right to protect himself and protect his family.

[Nick]

He does have some awareness that they're being watched because the U.S. marshals were. What they were initially hoping for is for the Randy Weaver or the Weaver family to come down the mountain to them and surrender.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

They didn't want to have to go up the mountain, but at some point they, they decided, we got to do something. I'm skipping over some stuff intentionally because there, there was a lot going on behind the scenes, if you will, during the course of this. U.S. marshals want to bring him in on a bench warrant and Randy Weaver doesn't want to come down the hill.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

And on top of that you have the nasty neighbor who likely set a lot of this shit into motion to begin with, who is still continuing to throw Randy Weaver and his family under the bus, making additional claims about them while they're essentially holed up in their cabin.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Regardless, this is where we find ourselves with this confrontation that's about to go down. And again, with conflicting reports. Later accounts of this incident would vary. Law enforcement maintaining that they had identified themselves as US government agents. They also claimed that Kevin Harris fired the first shot, hitting Marshall Deegan, who would later die. As a result, Marshall Cooper won another member of this three man team position there. The recon team returned fire, hitting Kevin. Meanwhile, Marshall Roderick, unsure of who fired first, shot the dog striker, fearing that it might the dog might attack or further reveal their position. Right now, seeing his dog shot, of course anybody's going to react to that, especially a boy. Sammy Weaver fired shots at the marshal, shouting, you son of a bitch, you killed my dog. Randy Weaver, remember, he's elsewhere. He's positioned himself elsewhere in the chaos. He starts firing his handgun into the air and instructing his son, shouting at his son Sammy to go home. So Sammy responds, I'm coming dad, you know, or I'm going to go home. But he is fatally wounded in this gunfire that continues back and forth. A short time after the gunfire subsided, the shattered Weaver parents retrieved the lifeless body of their 14 year old son Sammy, and transported him to one of their outbuildings.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Grieving their loss, the family took refuge in the cabin. Randy and Kevin's account of the incident would differ from that of law enforcement. They insisted that the marshals did not identify themselves and that the government fired the shots first killing the dog and then setting off a chain reaction of deadly events. The following day, multiple federal agencies descended upon the scene with armored tanks, helicopters and personnel carriers.

[Captain]

Yeah, don't bring a shotgun to a tank fight.

[Nick]

No, this is really starting to look like a small family who's now facing a full on army. So essentially they set up a military encampment at the base of Ruby Ridge. This with hundreds of federal agents. They had hostage negotiators, state police and military personnel. Meanwhile, anti government demonstrators began gathering in support of the Weaver family. As irate locals and other supporters of the Weavers protested near the roadblock. They were angrily calling for government to, for the government to stop their interference into the business of private citizens. News crews and media outlets set up the base of Ruby Ridge to capture every minute of this standoff. During this time, the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team who had been called into assist, submitted a proposed revision to the FBI standard rules of engagement. This amendment would allow agents to use deadly force to neutralize any perceived threat by an adult observed to be carrying a weapon. So this is different from their standard rules of engagement. Standard rules had restricted the use of deadly force only in the event an agent or another is in, is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. This seems like extreme here. However, if you're, if you really want to analyze this situation and dissect it, really all the FBI is doing in this moment is, is they're, they're, they're lifting this a little bit because they, they don't want their agents and people there to be involved and have to assess the situation. One of the U.S. marshals was already killed.

[Captain]

Right. And to me that's. Once that agent is killed, that's your assess, then you make your, then you assess the situation. It's a deadly situation, period.

[Nick]

Exactly. That's exactly right. So now they're operating under these amended rules of engagement. An FBI sniper.

[Captain]

But is the family firing back? Because it just seems like they retreated and there's no fire coming. And we have no fire coming from the father. He shot his gun up in the air. Yeah.

[Nick]

And this is the following day. So essentially this is like a ceasefire without either side telling each other they're not going to be shooting at each other.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

But I Mean, this situation is horrible. The kid's dead, Marshall's dead, the dog's dead. Yeah, but it's. It's not going to get any better. So now, operating under these amended rules of engagement. An FBI sniper positioned about 200 yards from the Weaver cabin. Fire two shots. So keep in mind, this sniper not only is not in threat of imminent danger or death or seriously bodily harm. This FBI sniper, 200 yards away from the Weaver cabin. Likely was even undetected by the Weavers or Kevin Harris or anybody there. So he fires two shots. The first shot wounded Randy Weaver. That very likely was a goal of theirs. The second shot was intended for Kevin Harris, remember? So now you would have hit all three members that were engaged in gunfire with your agents, right? Sammy? The kid's dead. Kevin Harris, who fired shots. And Randy Weaver, the father, dad, husband of the whole Weaver family. The second shot, intended for Kevin Harris. Struck and killed Vicki Weaver, the wife, mother. As she stood in the doorway of their cabin holding their 10 month old daughter, Jesus. And somehow. You want to talk about JFK magic bullet theory. This bullet strikes and kills Vicki Weaver. But eventually finding its way, finding its mark to hit Kevin after it passed through Vicki's head. Vicki's lifeless body would lay under the kitchen table. They pulled her inside. While the surviving family members remained barricaded inside that same cabin. In an attempt to persuade the Weavers to surrender. Federal negotiators sunk to even lower depths. FBI negotiator Fred Lansley cruelly taunted the family, addressing Mrs. Weaver and inviting her and the children to come out and eat pancakes. These unbelievably pitless remarks. Directed at a woman they surely knew was dead. Caused the family to break down in tears. There was a phone placed outside of the cabin door. Which would ring every 15 minutes. And negotiators continually screamed threats, threw a bullhorn at the family, warning that the Weavers would die if they did not exit the cabin and come down. The negotiator reportedly continued mockingly addressing Vicki and asking about the baby and offering help. The callousness with which they treated the Weavers, who had just lost two family members to incredible and largely senseless violence. Is and was profoundly disturbing. By August 25, the crowds of anti government sympathizers and supporters of the Weaver family had grown. And five armed skinheads were arrested en route to the cabin. These guys were going to go up there. And even though the Weavers didn't request their assistance, apparently these skin. These skinheads were going to go up there and start Fighting back against the government, they were arrested. As the days wore on, it became increasingly evident that Randy and his daughters, as well as Kevin Harris, were never going to willingly surrender. As a last resort, federal agents brought in Beau Gertz, A former Green Beret and prominent figure who shared many of the same beliefs as the Weaver clan. Federal agents hoped that Gertz would be able to persuade Randy and the remaining occupants of the cabin to surrender peacefully before they enacted a full scale attack on the cabin. Randy eventually allowed Gertz to enter the cabin, and he was ultimately successful in securing Randy's agreement to not only remove Vicki's body from the cabin, but to rescue Kevin Harris as well, allowing the gravely wounded young man to receive much needed medical attention. Finally, on August 31, Randy Weaver agreed to surrender to federal officials, and he and his three daughters exited the cabin. Both Randy and Kevin were arrested. Kevin for the murder of Deputy Marshall Deegan, and Randy for aiding and abetting. In total, the men faced 10 counts, including murder, aiding and abetting, murder, conspiracy, and assault. The standoff lasted 11 days.

[Captain]

I mean, this is a difficult situation because.

[Nick]

Obviously horrific.

[Captain]

I don't agree with some of the thoughts or ideology of the Weavers, but it doesn't seem like they were posing any threat to the community or to themselves. And it just doesn't seem like there was enough communication from law enforcement to warrant this kind of. Or this type of surveillance or this type of attack. It's. It's very strange.

[Nick]

It's. It's horrible because you have this horrific situation where it's. This. Beyond overreaction. Right. Overreaction would be an understatement.

[Captain]

Yeah, but hold on. In fairness, beyond. You don't know exactly what information law enforcement was being fed.

[Nick]

Well, no, that's what I'm getting to. Beyond overreaction. However, they believed that this family was, in fact, a threat to the public and a threat to government agencies. And so when every. When nobody's right, everybody's wrong, and this situation just. I mean, it. Could it have been handled differently by all parties involved? Absolutely, yeah. And it's sad that it wasn't. The Weaver case would be prosecuted by U.S. attorney Ron Hoen. And would be tried in Boise, Idaho with Judge Edward Lodge. And Randy and Kevin would stand trial together. Jury selection began on April 13, 1993, and the trial started the very next day. Ultimately, here, Captain. This trial would last about 36 days. The prosecution called a total of 56 witnesses, while the defense, led by famed defense attorney Jerry Spence, called zero. Coincidentally, the trial Coincided with the violent and fiery ending to the Waco siege. And this, ultimately, and for many other reasons why, is forever linking both events. The state's case, to describe it. It's been described as chaotic, with contradictory witnesses and attempts to portray the Weavers as racist. Really, what the prosecution wants to put together here, because you have a situation where a jury could be sympathetic to Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris. Right. Kevin Harris almost died. Randy Weaver lost his son and his wife and his dog. And their home was essentially besieged by an army of government agencies.

[Captain]

Yeah. And even though I don't agree with racist beliefs and racist thoughts or actions, it seems like a very dumb defense to say, well, we're going to say that they were racist, but that still doesn't justify your actions.

[Nick]

Yeah. The state wants to present these people as just bad all around. They were horrible, terrible people before we went up the hill. And the result was they were going to shoot whoever came up there. It just so happened to be that it was our U.S. marshals. And now we've lost a U.S. marshal. And look, it wasn't a great trial. Again, it appears that the trial in ways mirrored the standoff where when nobody's right, everybody's wrong.

[Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

Part of this, too, that gets lost in the sauce here is Randy Weaver may have found himself in a whole lot of trouble because at some point he was approached. Remember we mentioned Gertz? Who? Gertz was the guy that really put an end to the standoff. He was somebody that was friends or friendly with Randy Weaver. Gertz was somebody that the ATF wanted to bring down. Okay. Gertz was the one that was directly involved in a member of all of these extremist groups, several of them, and several of the hate groups. And he was also involved in a lot of the arms dealings. From my understanding here, Captain, the ATF initially reached out to Randy Weaver, well before any of this mess started to try to get him to be an informant for. For them, for their agency to take down Gertz. And people like Gertz.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

But Weaver's like, hey, I'm not going to be a snitch.

[Captain]

And so then you also wonder, is there motivation from them to take out Weaver so he doesn't snitch on what they're trying to do?

[Nick]

Possibly, but. But more so, what I think played out with this situation is the US Marshals were not informed of any of this attempting to recruit Randy Weaver as an informant. And he didn't comply. Right. He didn't do what they wanted him to do, but he didn't get violent. When they asked him if he wanted to be an informant, he just said, I'm not going to be a part of this.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Not going to be a snitch.

[Captain]

They really seem like a family that had their own beliefs and didn't want to be a part of this society.

[Nick]

You know, when I look at this case under multiple lenses, one of the lenses I'm looking at it under is, is there a chance that had the marshals and other agencies, this is why these agencies got to talk and communicate more? Is there a chance that had the U.S. marshals known that Randy Weaver did speak with the ATF, did engage and have conversations with them, just didn't comply, but didn't do it in a violent manner, would this thing have started off differently?

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Would they. Would they not have felt like, we need to surveil this whole family for days and days?

[Captain]

And one of the things that we were talking about off air was the idea of if you're law enforcement and you're going to do a raid on, let's say, drug dealers, you might have this idea, you might have some fear that they're going to put up a fight. So you outman them, you outgun them. You make sure that if there is a fight that you're going to win. But when you're dealing with people that have odd views on reality. I mean, even just hearing that the wife had these visions or dreams that their family would be attacked, then you have to wrestle with the idea of, okay, we can outgun them, we can outman them, but are we stepping into a situation that if they're losing, if the Weavers are losing, do they have some kind of system that will just blow us all up? And I think that would lend to, you know, that fear, would lend to law enforcement agents making bad decisions and decisions out of fear.

[Nick]

Well, and ultimately, the public cited with the Weavers and the way that this trial played out is in agreeance with that and is suggestive that the public did side with the Weavers. So In July of 1993, we have a jury of 12. They issued their verdict. The jurors had concluded that the U.S. marshals were the ones who, in fact, fired the first shot. Remember, the defense called zero witnesses. The prosecution called 56. So it was all the prosecution's witnesses and piecing together their stories that the jury concluded that it was the U.S. marshals that fired the first shot.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

Killing the dog, which the jury then says set off the chain of events leading to the tragic deaths of three people. And the jury ultimately found for the defense acquitting Kevin Harris outright on all accounts. Randy Weaver was also found not guilty on all felony federal charges. But he was convicted of two minor charges. Failing to appear in court and violating his bail conditions. So in October, Randy Weaver was sentenced to 18 months in jail. However, he had already served 14 months in jail while awaiting trial.

[Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

He was also fined $10,000. This verdict was a scathing pronouncement of the public's overwhelmingly critical perception of the federal government's abuses, Denouncing its use of entrapment and manipulation to further its goals. Randy served his sentence and was released. On December 17, 1993. He reunited with his children who were staying with family members in Iowa. The Weavers relocated to Montana, where the surviving family members filed a 300 million dollar lawsuit against the federal government for the wrongful deaths of Vicki and Samuel Weaver. In August of 1995, the government settled the suit, awarding Randy $100,000 and $1 million each to his three remaining children. Five years later, Kevin Harris received a $380,000 settlement for his pain and suffering. In 1993, the government launched an investigation to the actions of federal agents involved in the Ruby Ridge standoff to determine if any misconduct or excessive force was used. By June of 1994, the Department of Justice delivered a report Condemning the agent's actions and recommending reforms. The next spring, details of this 542 page report were leaked to the press. And in the fall of 1995, Randy Weaver testified at a U.S. senate Judiciary hearing about the Ruby Ridge incident. Randy reflected that he had been given a second chance. He would have come down the mountain to attend his court appearance, Thereby avoiding the ensuing bloodshed and horror. He maintained that while he still believed in the separation of the races, he emphatically denied being a racist or white supremacist. And that he did not consider himself to be superior to other races. He ended by reiterating his grief and frustration over not being able to bring his wife and son's killers to justice. Now, on that front, in 1997, Lon Hirochi, the FBI sniper responsible for Vicki Weaver's death, Was charged with involuntary manslaughter. So the case moved from state to the federal court, where the charges were initially dismissed due to federal immunity. Given the situation, we talked about the rules of engagement. This dismissal was later reversed, but the charges were ultimately dropped in 2001 due to the time that had passed, Making a conviction very unlikely. In May of 2022 an online Facebook post of Randy Weaver's daughter Sarah. She posted that her father had passed away the previous day, so this would be May 11 after suffering a brief illness in April of that year. No cause of death is given. He was 74 years old at the time of his death and Sarah eulogized her father simply with the line love you always dad. The tragedy at Ruby Ridge poses an age old question. Was self described white separatist Randy Weaver a radical right wing extremist or the victim of blatant and egregious governmental overreach resulting in disastrous consequences? Public sentiment in the 1990s decided in favor of the latter, and upon examination it seems that in truth, it is possible to be both. We can only hope that the bitter lessons learned at Ruby Ridge are never forgotten, particularly through the 2025 lens of the deeply divided state of our nation.

[Captain]

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the Garage each and every week for everything True crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com make sure you subscribe to us on YouTube. And if you need more True Crime Garage for your earballs, check out our bonus content on Patreon or Apple Podcast subscription.

[Nick]

Until next week, Be good, be kind, and don't live it.