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Hate American Made ////// The Soldier
00:50:47
Hate American Made ////// The Soldier Part 5 of 6 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com Timothy James McVeigh was a decorated American Soldier who served during Operation Desert Storm. After the war McVeigh had difficulties finding a new path for himself. Ultimately, he became enraged against the government that his soldier duties once served. He believed and told others that the U.S. government was in the process of taking away the freedoms of its citizens. Then Ruby Ridge happened and when the Waco standoff was in its early stages he was present, even giving an interview to a local reporter. These events were “proof” to McVeigh that he was right. All of his fears were coming true. Timothy McVeigh became America’s worst homegrown terrorist when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah building in downtown Oklahoma City. What meaning did the Oklahoma City Bombing hold for Timothy McVeigh and beyond? Was it revenge? Was it the first act of a revolution? Was it a going away present for Richard Snell?
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- [00:00]
Host 1
In 1932, one man opened a two room business school above a nondescript storefront in downtown Manchester, New Hampshire. How did it become one of the largest universities in the country? Okay, this case isn't exactly a mystery. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 degrees you can earn from your couch. And with low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University makes earning your degree affordable too. Find your degree at Snhu. Edu Garage. That's Snhu. Edu Garage. By an unspeakable act, the apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more anti government groups. David Koresh Ruby ridge Siege Timothy McVeigh More than 80 people dead. Bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City. Hate by an unspeakable act.
- [01:11]
Host 2
There is so little hope left.
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Host 1
A good soldier typically refers to someone who is disciplined, obedient and dedicated to their duty, willing to endure hardship. A good soldier sacrifices for the greater good and fights bravely for a cause they believe in. A good soldier follows orders without hesitation and maintains discipline even in challenging situations. They are willing to face danger and put themselves in harm's way for God, their country and their cause. They are able to work effectively as part of a team and are loyal to their unit and fellow soldiers. They possess the physical and mental fortitude to withstand the rigors of military service. A good soldier can be counted on to perform their duties effectively and efficiently. On the morning of Wednesday, April 19, 1995, an ex army soldier and security guard named Timothy McVeigh parked a rented Rider truck in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City. He was about to commit mass murder. This is true Crime Garage. In May of 1988, a young man named Timothy James McVeigh from Lockport, New York enlisted in the United States Army. Timothy McVeigh was 20 years old. He enlisted because his life was kind of going nowhere and he wanted some direction. After graduating high school, McVeigh was working at local jobs, but nothing that was really moving him. And he felt like he was getting nowhere fast. So he needed a career or an education or both. The military was good for his father and Timothy was smart, skilled with guns, and so this was a natural fit for McVeigh. He attended basic training and advanced training at the U.S. army Infantry School at Fort Benning, which is located in the state of Georgia. While in the military, McVeigh used much of his spare time to read about firearms and explosives. McVeigh was reprimanded by the military for wearing a white power T shirt. During his time serving in the military. He would later say that this was in retaliation to some of the African American soldiers who wore black power t shirts. During McVeigh's time at Fort Benning, he met fellow soldier Terry Nichols, who was his platoon guide. The two became fast friends. They shared similar backgrounds and both were into gun collecting and survivalism. Terry Lynn Nichols was considerably older than McVeigh, about 13 years older, and from my understanding here, Captain Terry Nichols, prior to his time in the army, he simply enlists because of being bored at home. He was a stay at home father to his own child, plus two step kids. When life wasn't really doing anything for him, much like McVeigh, he decided to sign up for the US army as well, Even though he was a little older than traditional people who enlist. The two were later stationed together again, this time at Fort Riley, which is in Junction city, Kansas. This is where the two of them became friends with another man. His name is Michael Fortier. McVeigh was a top scoring gunner with the M2 4225 millimeter cannon on Bradley fighting vehicles, which is used by the 1st Infantry Division, and was quickly promoted to sergeant. So he's excelling quickly. During his time in the army, it's reported that McVeigh was building and stashing his own private gun collection. This is something that was not allowed by the army. Now, it's unclear if the army was aware of this activity or not. After being promoted, McVeigh had a bad reputation for assigning undesirable work to the black servicemen and regularly using racial slurs in the company of other soldiers. This included black soldiers. In fact, years later, several of the men who served with McVeigh would label him a loner slash racist. In the summer of 1990, like many other servicemen and women, McVay was sent overseas for deployment on operation desert storm, the U.S. war against Iraq. There, McVeigh did see a good deal of action. What lasting effects this had on him are difficult to say. But The army liked McVeigh's work. He received several service awards, including the Bronze Star medal, National Defense service Medal, Southwest Asia Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon, and the Kuwait Liberation Medal. During this time here, Captain, it seems like when we say he saw a good deal of action, he was forced to be involved in some very violent action. And without getting into the details of the Iraq war, Desert Storm, he probably was responsible for many casualties. On the, on the opposing side, there are some rumors, some pretty horrific rumors that he may have executed prisoners, which is of course war crimes. But again, These are just rumors. These. There's nothing over the years to say that this is fact. And no other soldier or officer that he answered to whatever state that this is fact.
- [07:22]
Guest
It's hard to know what his military experience did to him, but we do have evidence that he had some interesting and odd thoughts before he actually went to war. And he seemed to be an individual that didn't have much of a direction, maybe a little aggressive, and was willing to piss people off by telling people his. His views and opinions on life that might not line up with most people.
- [07:51]
Host 1
Yes, he was regularly offering up unsolicited opinions on social matters. And that made him. You could look at it a several, several different ways that made him either an outcast or he's choosing to be a loner type that he doesn't want to mingle with everybody.
- [08:11]
Guest
Some people decide, I'm going to put my worst foot forward, so therefore you just don't like me, and so I don't have to show you the real me. So then you can then judge that. But the military is a tough situation anyways because you go, well, how can this guy with these racist beliefs and these racist actions actually thrive in this system? But you have to remember it's a system that not everybody's willing to sign up for. So sometimes the military has to kind of look the other way on some of these bad flaws or bad character flaws.
- [08:50]
Host 1
Many, many people, and thank you to everyone out there who has done so over the years and will do so in the future. But many people sign up for all the right reasons, God and country, to find themselves and find a career for themselves, to further their education. There's a million wonderful reasons to sign up to enlist, to serve in any branch of the military. I just worry that McVey strikes me as one of those types, and I know everybody out there has encountered one of these types that you talk to who are excited to sign up because, you know, you get to shoot people. They say stuff like that and you're like, don't. I don't feel. Now, I don't feel comfortable around you.
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Guest
Not in just this war, but in every war that we've been a part of. Different outfits that go out on these missions, they're all basically investigated later for either, like you said, killing prisoners, torturing prisoners, killing innocent people, or even killing children.
- [09:52]
Host 1
That's why war is absolutely the worst thing on this planet. The lines of what is right and what is wrong get blurry real quick, quick for men and women that are in combat and facing Those who are trying to, to end them. So I mean it's just absolutely. Even when our country is doing the right thing, I just, I mean it's one of those things where most of.
- [10:16]
Guest
The time it's hard to figure out what is the right side.
- [10:19]
Host 1
Yes. It never really feels like there is a, a real true winner. I think we all lose when we have are faced with war. Now after returning from the Gulf War, as said, he's decorated, he's a decorated war vet. By this point. McVeigh aspired to join the Green Beret Special Forces because he excelled during his time in the army and he thought that he would continue. He enters this 21 day assessment and selection course for the special Forces, but he taps out after two days. So McVeigh decided to leave the army and he was honorably discharged this in 1991. Now at this time, McVeigh and a lot of other people were involved in survivalism and McVeigh was a survivalist. And we, we touched on some of this in our prior episodes regarding this true crime story. But one thing we didn't talk about is where the survivalist movement and really gained steam was in the 1980s and during the Cold War. Well, by this time, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, because survivalists, the whole idea of it was built around, well, how to survive, how to protect your family if the Russians were to come over here and invade our country or to start dropping bombs or nuclear bombs on our country. So a lot of that idea was built around that threat from the Soviet Union. And so when, when we have the collapse of that, the individuals and the families and communities that had worked so hard and prepared themselves for such situations, it was really weird because now they have no enemy, right? They have no opposition, they have no threat, no fear, right, from, from a certain enemy. And so some of those persons and those beliefs started to morph into this idea. Well, now we have to defend ourselves against our own government. And this is an idea that McVeigh and several others that he would encounter in the coming years would share and express these ideas. Their, their fear was that the government would come and take their guns away and, and maybe enslave them or take their money, right? So the thought became at some point that we need to a survivalist need to defend ourselves against the US Government for our freedoms, our family, our land, our money. And of course, the second amendment. Now the second amendment to the United States Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791, along with other, with the other nine amendments that make up our bill of Rights. The text of the amendment reads, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. One year, Captain. After McVeigh left the army, Ruby Ridge happened. Now, the Ruby Ridge incident, which we covered here extensively, was the 1992 standoff in Boundary County, Idaho, which involved both the US Marshals and FBI agents facing off against Randy Weaver, his family and a friend named Kevin Harris, resulting in a tragic loss of life and sparking controversy over federal law enforcement actions. And as our listeners know, this standoff and gunfight resulted in the Deaths of Deputy U.S. marshal W.F. deacon Samuel Weaver, who was the 14 year old son of the family, and Vicki Weaver, the mother and wife who was killed by a bullet to the head from FBI sniper Lon Hiruchi. Lon Herucci fired his gun from a position over 200 yards north and above the Weaver cabin. And sadly, Vicki Weaver was killed by this bullet. This Ruby Ridge incident would inspire not just Timothy McVeigh, but others. And it would have a profound effect on Tim McVeigh, and it would really be the start of, I would say, the continuation of bad behavior. We talked about some of his behavior during his time in, in the army, but this is where we start to see it at the civilian level, right? So he starts threat, sending threatening hate mail to Lon Hiruchi's home. One of the correspondence that I was able to review, he says something pretty vague, but it is threatening. You know, he says something like what goes around comes around. And later, McVeigh would even begin handing out flyers and pamphlets with Lon Hu's address on it. He was hoping that somebody would do something to Lon Hoochi because so many people had hate for this man. And McVey would later say that at some point he was considering planning to target Huuchi or a member of Harui's family to assassinate. Less than one year later, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians inside their Mount Carmel center compound were surrounded by ATF agents. In 1993, McVeigh drove to Waco, Texas during the Waco siege to support to show his support for the Branch Davidians at the scene, he distributed pro gun rights literature and bumper stickers bearing slogans such as when guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw. The 51 day siege resulted in the deaths of four ATF agents and 82 civilians. And of course, this enraged McVeigh. Not only enraged McVeigh, but it gave him another Enemy, a new enemy. Janet Reno. And further, to bolster his hate of these different government agencies.
- [16:44]
Guest
Well, it's. It's fascinating to me because this individual didn't have much of a direction, so he goes into the army to get a direction, and then I think he sees the inner workings or part of the inner workings of our army and the power of our government. And maybe even by being over in this war, maybe he can't justify certain things that he's doing. So then he goes to advance his career, but is not able to. So he gets out of the military, still doesn't have much of direction, but he sees the power of our government, and then he sees the wrongdoings of our government and maybe even being involved and some wrongdoings of our government. And so he starts forming his direction because he didn't have a direction, right? And so now he's forming his direction, and he. And when you have a government that is not transparent on everything, you know, going back from the president being sass, the president being assassinated, to wars that civilians don't know if they're justified or not, then like I said, his time in the military, it's like it's all leading to this idea of him having this vendetta against the power that he served, if that makes any sense.
- [18:02]
Host 1
Well, and I'm not trying to be a complete jerk here, but really, when you look at McVeigh's timeline, it's almost like a really long fuse. Now, when that fuse was lit, I don't think it matters because it stayed lit for a very long time as it worked its way to. To. I mean, him becoming one of the most notorious monsters this country has ever faced in slash produced. It's so before his time in the military, he was. We already covered that. He's familiar with guns. He's a bit of a gun enthusiast, but he. He did have some. Some jobs. He was a security guard. He worked at a Burger King for a while. He did attend community college. It was. It was pretty brief. It's one of these positions that when you examine it, it makes no damn sense to me. When you. When you read or interact or, or to see these types on tv, these militia types, the nationalists, the separatists, the. The white supremacists. They. A lot of them, to hear them talk about the US Military, they hold that in very high regard. Which, which anyone should, regardless of where you come from, walk of life, it's about God and country. It's. It's very proud thing. It's. It's honorable to, to serve for your nation and to protect your fellow man. But. But at the same time, the militia types, the survivalists, and a lot of these hate groups, while they may have respect for the different military branches, they seem to hate the government that those that military serves. It never really made any much sense to me. When all of that is. It's like talking out of both sides of your mouth, right? It's out of your face. It makes no sense. Damn sense. Let's go to April of 1993. This is when McVeigh, he takes off and he goes and lives on a farm in Michigan. This is with his former army mate, Terry Nichols, who we always already introduced. So the Nichols family. And I believe that it is actually Terry Nichols older brother that has this farm up in Michigan. McVeigh goes and stays there for a while. During his time there, McVeigh and the Nichols brothers, they are making explosives. These are mostly like small pipe bombs and, and they're using things, household chemicals and items, plastic jugs and whatnot, to create explosive devices. Now, not that McVeigh needed any influence, especially by this time, but the Nichols brothers, from what I understand, were quite racist and a little bit radical as well. In fact, they had hopes of building a paramilitary training camp on the family farm. McVeigh's anti government rhetoric became more radical during this time as well. And he would start frequenting gun shows. And one of the things he was doing at gun shows was he. He had developed this devout hate for the ATF and several other government agencies that we already had talked about. But he was selling items that were like ATF or FBI hats that were riddled with bullet holes. His answering machine greeting, one of them included the quote, give me liberty or give me death. And as said, he began experimenting with constructing pipe bombs and other explosive devices. And in 1994, the US government imposed new firearms restrictions which McVeigh believed threatened his livelihood as well as others foreign. You all know what speed dating is, right? Well, if you're the owner of a growing business, what if there was a feature like speed dating only for hiring? In other words, you could meet several interested qualified candidates at once, all at a designated time. Well, there's good news because there is such a Service. It's called Zip Intro from ZipRecruiter. You can post your job today and start talking to qualified candidates tomorrow. Zip Intro gives you the power to quickly assess excellent candidates for your job via back to back video calls. You simply pick a time and Zip Intro does all of the work of finding and scheduling qualified candidates for you. Then you can choose who you want to talk to and meet with great people as soon as the next day. It's so easy. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with new Zip Intro only from ZipRecruiter rated number one hiring site based on G2. Try Zip Intro for free at ZipRecruiter.com Garage Again, that's ZipRecruiter.com Garage Zip Intro post jobs today. Talk to qualified candidates tomorrow.
- [23:29]
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- [23:53]
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- [25:04]
Host 1
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- [26:52]
Guest
All right, we are back. Cheers to everyone. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. Cheers to the people in the bleachers.
- [27:00]
Host 1
All the way in the back. And cheers to the people under the bleachers having a good time, no doubt.
- [27:08]
Guest
Well, you did say it's kind of like talking out at both sides of your, your face. But I think the problem here is when you're a part of the army, there's some, you know, infighting or ribbing to the navy and the guys in the Navy kind of make fun of the guys in the army. But I think it can go beyond that when, if you believe in the mission that you are serving and then you come back home, now we take that power away from you. And now you're seeing these other entities doing things that you don't agree with and you almost feel slighted because of the effort you put in and the mission that you tried to accomplish.
- [27:48]
Host 1
Yeah. And look, I'm a huge fan of a good road trip. I think most people like a good road trip. Now it's often reported that Timothy McVeigh was kind of bopping around the country and on the road for about two years straight. That that's not a false statement. But we should point out that he, he does kind of, he never settles down during this two year period. He is moving about going state to state. But we did mention, you know, he, he went and lived on the Nichols farm for a little bit. There was a farm that he lived at for a period of time on, in Kansas, in the state of Kansas as well. And he would live briefly in the state of Arizona as well. So McVeigh, he hits the road. He's, he's frequenting and also working at some of these gun shows throughout the country. And this is where McVeigh sold those items that we've already mentioned. Plus survival items and copies of the book titled the Turner Diaries. The Turner Diaries is a 1979 novel by William Luther Pierce, who is the founder and chairman of national alliance, an American white nationalist group. And he published this book under a pseudonym, Andrew McDonald. The book depicts a violent revolution in the United States caused by a group called the Organization. The organization's actions lead to the overthrow of the US Government and then a nuclear war and ultimately a race war which leads to the systematic extermination of non whites and Jews worldwide. So the white race in this book view other white people as race traitors as well. And they ultimately were hanged in a mass execution which was called the Day of the Rope. The book, while never something that I would want to read, has been incredibly influential, destructively so I might add. It's believed that this book inspired numerous hate crimes and acts of terrorism including the 1984 assassination of Alan Berg, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the 1999 London nail bombings. Meanwhile, in Arkansas, in the state of Arkansas, Richard Wayne Snell, who was convicted of two murders, one the murder of a state trooper, Officer Bryant, and sentenced to death. While Snell never denied the accusations of these murders, he nevertheless undertook what became a decade long effort to overturn these convictions, trying to avoid the death penalty. An appeal in one of the cases was heard by the Arkansas Supreme Court which upheld the conviction and the death sentence. So Richard Snell's petition for a writ of habeas corpus was denied by the district court and that ruling was upheld in 1994 at a final appearance before the clemency board. Snell showed no remorse and in fact he said he probably would kill State trooper Bryant again if the same circumstances were to present themselves. Just prior to this, the court proceedings against Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris from the Ruby Ridge incident concluded they were acquitted of the charges from the standoff. And federal committees criticized the U.S. marshals and the FBI for mishandling the situation. Once again, Timothy McVeigh hit the road. He was heading west as he felt more free the further west he went, where he came across other like minded individuals and families with as he said, the exception being the state of California. In a lot of the states going west, McVeigh found a more anti government sentiment. It said that McVeigh considered buying property in Arizona, Seligman, Arizona, which he determined, which McVeigh determined to be a quote, nuclear free zone. This goes back to that survivalist right mentality that he's, he's using to direct most of his Life. But money was a problem for McVeigh being that he had very little of it. So he didn't buy any property. He went to live with his old buddy. This is Michael fortier in kingman, Arizona. Remember, he knew him from the army as well. And the two of them, during this time, became so close that Timothy McVeigh served as best man at Michael's wedding. Michael fortier and his wife Lori frequently experimented with drugs, Mainly cannabis and methamphetam, phetamine. So they involved with some. Some meth going on out there and this.
- [33:18]
Guest
Just. Just a little bit of weed and a little bit of meth.
- [33:21]
Host 1
Yeah, maybe a little meth on top of the weed. Who knows what they're doing. But because McVeigh's living with them, he. He too, gets involved in this, and.
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Guest
From my understanding, help his radical ideas.
- [33:38]
Host 1
No. And from my understanding to meth makes people. Can make people extremely paranoid. And it. It would appear to me, captain, as. As tough and as much as he positions and presents himself to be this person who is willing to fight the government and willing to fight for what he believes in. I have to believe that some of his belief stem from some level of paranoia already prior to any type of drug use.
- [34:07]
Guest
Right.
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Host 1
He's living out there with. With Laurie and Michael for tier. There's some drug activity going on in the household. And I think what they're doing is a good amount of drugs are going on before McVeigh even got there. And eventually McVeigh joins them in this activity. But it's said that he was never as interested in drugs as the couple was. In fact, one of the reasons that he parted ways with Michael was that McVeigh grew tired of Michael's drug habits. At some point in late 1994, we learned. We would later learn that McVeigh did discuss a severe act of terrorism with Michael fortier and with his wife as well. In fact, he tried to recruit Michael. Laurie says that McVeigh told her about plans to blow up a federal building. Now, what's uncertain here, captain, is did he ever name the building? And according to Lori statements, he. He came quite close to naming the building, but never actually did. Keep in mind, they're living in Arizona at this time. So what familiarity, if any, with Oklahoma or Oklahoma city did she have is really hard to say. But what I've reviewed states that. That Lori was told, this is her words, that McVeigh was going to his ultimate plan and he was recruiting others to help him execute this plan was to build a Bomb in a vehicle and place that vehicle near a large building. And I believe he did reference the city of Oklahoma, the building. He described it as a building that had a glass front. And he told her that this building would. He picked this building because of the glass front and because that it was what he called an easy target.
- [36:19]
Guest
Well, and one of your favorite parts in the true crime stories is when there's letters.
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Host 1
Yes. And a lot of these types, especially like a McVeigh type, they like to. They like to talk a lot. They like to communicate a lot. They like to threaten people. So while all this is going on, McVeigh is also mailing some letters that would be of interest. So he mailed two letters to the atf. The first he titled Constitutional Defenders. The second letter, he titled it ATF Reed, in which he denounced government officials as fascist tyrants and stormtroopers and warned atf, all you tyrannical motherfuckers will swing in the wind one day for your treasonous actions against the Constitution of the United States.
- [37:10]
Guest
Yeah, I mean, he's planning on hanging them. But I'm glad that you bring up that point, because anybody that studies history, whether you're. And I don't want to get into a gun debate, but one of the biggest arguments or one of the reasons why we have the right to bear arms, it's not so much about hunting or even just protecting your house from somebody breaking in. It's also to protect yourself from a tyrannical government. And so if you, like, study how the Nazis took over Germany, well, when they had no guns to defend themselves, and you have the military showing up at your. At your house at night, well, all you can do is follow their rules and hope that they don't shoot you. And so I think it's funny that he brings this up, because I. I think when people are arguing this point, if they're pro gun, if they're constantly talking about, well, a tyrannical government, and the chances of there being a tyrannical government are pretty slim. But they almost get fixated on this point. And I think definitely people like Timothy gets stuck on this idea, and they almost manifest it into their own life, even if it's not happening in the truest form to them. Does that make any sense at all?
- [38:46]
Host 1
No, it makes complete sense, because think about what's taken place in his life as. As he's going down this. This very dark road that he was on that he started off on a few years back during his time of his. Starting to hate these different Government agencies, the US Government, fearing that they are going to take away his guns or all of our guns. What has taken place? Ruby Rich, for starters, right where that all started on some illegal gun charges that Randy Weaver faced. And it turned into the death of a U.S. marshal and the death of his wife and son and their daughter. Then. And then you. Afterward, the family members, or at least the two adults that survived faced charges, you know, that the. They wanted. Certain agencies wanted to charge them with the murder of the. The officer. And it's a very difficult situation to sort out who was right, who was wrong. And as we said, when we talked about it, it appeared nobody was right and everybody was wrong and everything was mishandled. And they really, they really went over the top unnecessarily with what they. How they handled Ruby Rich. And so this is backing up his paranoia, this is backing up his concern. The threat to him is being backed up by an incident like Ruby Rich. And then a year later, whether you agree with the Branch Davidians or their apocalyptic views or David Koresh or any of that nonsense of the story, where does it start with A big part of that starts with the ATF just simply wanting to carry out these search warrants where illegal firearms is part of that search warrant. They wanted to execute this search warrant.
- [40:46]
Guest
Right.
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Host 1
And so again, we hear the words illegal firearms and what is the result? The result is the compound being surrounded by an army of ATF agents and local media, which then turns into. To national media and the whole place goes up like a tinderbox in flames, resulting in the death of so many civilians. Regardless of how the fire started, I've heard a lot of opinions and read a lot of opinions on how this fire started. I don't know what the hell happened. I don't know who started the fire. All I know is that both sides handled this in complete disaster and it ended in complete, incomplete disaster. But this is, this is fueling him. This is, this is furthering his beliefs that my, my, the thing that I'm worried about, the stuff that threatens me and the threat that I'm trying to tell everybody else out there, look around you people. This shit's really going on. This is really going down. Waco and Waco was a lot worse than Ruby Ridge and it's only going to continue to get worse.
- [41:52]
Guest
And he was witness to this.
- [41:56]
Host 1
Correct.
- [41:57]
Guest
You know, when you're miles away, I'm sure it felt different. It's. It smells different, it looks different. But this becomes a slippery slope because whether it's the government, the atf, the FBI, whether it's the army, all these entities are made up of humans, and humans make mistakes, and humans can be good or evil. And so a lot of these people that start having these more radical ideas, it's like, if you want to find conspiracy, you can. You can find it. If you look for it, doesn't mean it's there, but because you think you're seeing it, it's in its truest form to you. And that's where I think all this stuff becomes a very slippery slope. And somebody like Timothy reminds me of Remy from higher learning. A smart guy that didn't really know what his direction was, was almost afraid of the world, in a sense, and was looking for direction, but found it in these negative thoughts and negative ideas.
- [43:16]
Host 1
And spiraled completely out of control. Some of it pushed by his own actions, own thoughts, own beliefs, but some of it also furthered by what's going on around him and what he is witnessing.
- [43:31]
Guest
Well, and we don't know what his mental health is, but when you're doing.
- [43:37]
Host 1
I can tell you this, as far as McVeigh goes, and I'm no doctor, I wouldn't guess that it was good, my friend.
- [43:44]
Guest
Right. But what I'm saying is then, if we have this history of methamphetamines, this could put him into states of manic, you know, hypermanic, or even maybe bouts of depression or even bouts of psychosis. So who knows what he's actually thinking in his brain.
- [44:09]
Host 1
Well, and hate begets hate. And what we're seeing here. And of course, we're just taking a glimpse at this time period in Timothy McVeigh's life. But what does not appear in this glimpse here, Captain, while he's. I mean, he's openly expressing the idea of threatening other people or assassinating a person or two and talking about all of this, these fears that he has that will be carried out by different government agencies. Well, the people he's talking to, there's nobody telling him no. There's nobody saying, no, that's not going to happen, Tim. There's nobody saying no, don't, don't. Oh, he told me about he wanted to build. Blow up a federal building. Well, when did you try to talk him out of that? You know, there's the people around him. While they may not be influencing him, they are certainly don't. Don't appear to be deterring him.
- [45:06]
Guest
Right.
- [45:07]
Host 1
And deterring this type of behavior or saying, hey, man, you might want to go talk to somebody about this. Because I. I don't think you're a bad dude, and I don't want bad things to end up happening to you. Let's. Let's go. Let's go talk to somebody about this. That never comes up in any telling of. Of this story with. With Timothy McVeigh.
- [45:29]
Guest
Right.
- [45:30]
Host 1
It is said that at this time, around this time is when he was already starting to talk about plans of blowing up a federal building. Now, how much was known by some of the others in his very small inner circle is difficult to say and still is up for debate even to this day, all of these years later. It's. In some. In some circles, it's. It's quite highly debated, and I think for good reason. I think for plenty of good reason. Like we just said, we've not mentioned anybody who's trying to talk him out of these actions, whether they believed he would carry them out or not. But another thing that he's talking about at this time is he said he would later say that he considered a campaign of individual assassination with certain eligible targets. And according to McVeigh, these eligible targets included Attorney general Janet Reno, Judge Walter Smith, Jr. Of the Federal court district, or, sorry, federal district court. This is the judge who handled the Branch Davidian trial, and also FBI agent Lon Hiruchi, who we already talked about, who was the FBI sniper on the rescue team for the FBI at Ruby Rich around this same time as well. Captain, we have McVeigh and Terry Nichols, who began making bulk purchases of ammonium nitrate, which is an agricultural fertilizer. Now, I want to circle back to McVeigh talking about and telling Laurie about his plans to blow up a federal building. The plans were so. He was so descriptive, according to Laurie, that he had explained to her how the bomb would be constructed and, I mean, what it would look like, the configuration of the bomb, and that it needed to be mobile so they could move it up to the building. But he also said that this would require a good amount of money for funding and that he planned to get the funding by robbing a guy that he called Bob. And this would turn out to be Robert Moore, who lived in Arkansas. And he and Terry Nichols went and robbed this man of a bunch of guns, jewelry, and valuables estimated worth thousands and thousands of dollars. But I bring this up one, because this action, this horrific action, and his plan did require some money, did require some air quotes, funding. But we also saw a lot of this similar behavior from different individuals in different groups that we talked about in episode one of Hate American made where they were. They were stealing guns, they were regularly robbing for guns and using this to, to fund all their little secret missions or plots. By this time, Captain, we have McVeigh and Nichols who are working at a farm or campground. It's been described a few different ways. And they are busy constructing their explosive device, their, their mobile bomb. And they wanted to mount this in the back of a box truck. So the short of it is that the two constructed in what is called an ANFO explosive device mounted in the back of a printed box truck. The bomb consisted of about 5,000 pounds of that ammonium nitrate and nitromethane. So now we are at April 17th and April 18th, 1995. And this is when Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols removed bomb supplies that they, they, they had been acquiring these supplies, supplies for this bomb and for their mission and keeping them in a storage unit in Harrington, Kansas. And on these two days, they spent time loading these items into the back of a rider rental truck that they had secured. So they're, if you're trying to picture this, they are outfitting this truck to really be a gigantic bomb on wheels.
- [50:25]
Guest
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Host 1
And they wanted to construct it in a way that, with these box trucks. Keep in mind the, the, the box portion of it, the cargo portion of it, is separate from the cabin of, of the truck or, or where the operator, the driver of the truck would sit. So they need to construct it in a way that the driver or the passenger who are riding up front can light, ignite, and start the fuse to eventually blow up this giant bomb that has been constructed in the box portion of the truck. Without getting into the back portion of the truck, they want to be able to light the fuse, hop out and leave the following day.
- [51:13]
Guest
But I'm sure when they're renting this truck, they ask, would you like to have insurance on this? I wonder if they made a comment of, well, we don't need insurance on this truck.
- [51:26]
Host 1
Well, no. We would later learn that Timothy McVeigh turned down the insurance and told the individual that rented it to him that he one, he didn't want it. And on top of that, he's, he's a really good driver and was used to driving vehicles of this size.
- [51:41]
Guest
Never mentioned the bomb they're going to put in it.
- [51:44]
Host 1
On April 19, 1995, at 8:50am Timothy McVeigh, driving a yellow rider rental truck, arrives in Oklahoma City. At 8:55am a video camera captured the rider truck heading towards downtown Oklahoma City. At 9:02am the bomb explodes in the Ryder truck parked outside the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.
- [52:17]
Host 2
A massive car bomb exploded outside of.
- [52:19]
Host 1
A large federal building in downtown Oklahoma City, shattering that building, killing children, killing federal employees, military men and civilians. The chaos in downtown Oklahoma City did indeed resemble Beirut after what police believed to be a 1200 pound car bomb ripped through the nine story federal building. Shortly after 9:00 this morning. More than 500 people were already in their offices and at least 50 children were in a daycare center on the second floor.
- [52:49]
Host 2
The bombing in Oklahoma City was an attack on innocent children and defenseless citizens. It was an act of cowardice and it was evil. The United States will not tolerate it and I will not allow the people of this country to be intimidated by evil cowards. I have met with our team which we assembled to deal with this bombing. And I have determined to take the following steps to assure the strongest response to this situation. First, I have deployed a crisis management team under the leadership of the FBI. Working with the Department of Justice, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, military and local authorities, we are sending the world's finest investigators to solve these murders. Second, I have declared an emergency in Oklahoma City. And at my direction, James Lee Witt, the director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, is now on his way there to make sure we do everything we can to help the people of Oklahoma deal with the tragedy. Third, we are taking every precaution to reassure and to protect people who work in or live near other federal facilities. Let there be no room for doubt. We will find the people who did this. When we do, justice will be swift, certain and severe. These people are killers and they must be treated like killers. Finally, let me say that I ask all Americans tonight to pray. To pray for the people who have lost their lives. To pray for the families and the friends of the dead and the wounded. To pray for the people of Oklahoma City. May God's grace be with them. Meanwhile, we will be about our way work. Thank you.