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Hate American Made ////// Waco Siege
01:07:27
Hate American Made ////// Waco Siege Part 4 of 6 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com The Waco siege began on February 28, 1993, when the ATF raided Mount Carmel Center. The ensuing gun battle resulted in the deaths of four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians. This chaos kicked off a 51 day standoff that ended in the deaths of many of the Branch Davidians including women, children, and leader David Koresh. Be good, be kind, and don’t litter.
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Narrator
In 1932, one man opened a two room business school above a nondescript storefront in downtown Manchester, New Hampshire.
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Captain
How did it become one of the.
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Narrator
Largest universities in the country? Okay, this case isn't exactly a mystery. Southern New Hampshire University offers over 200 degrees you can earn from your couch. And with low online tuition, Southern New Hampshire University makes earning your degree affordable too. Find your degree at SNHU Edugar.
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Captain
That's SNHU Edugar.
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Steve Buscemi
Hi, this is Steve Buscemi. You know, the actor. Well, now I'm an actor and podcast host. From Piece of Work Entertainment and Campside Media in association with Olive Productions, comes Big Time, an Apple original podcast. Each episode follows the story of one misfit with big dreams who isn't afraid to bend a few rules or take a short.
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Captain
Well, who steals bees?
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Co-host
I was duped. I shoot you in the leg.
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Steve Buscemi
This is Big Time. Follow and listen on Apple podcasts.
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David Koresh
By an unspeakable Act 8, the apocalypse would occur soon.
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Captain
More white supremacist groups, more anti government groups. David Koresh, Ruby ridge siege. Timothy McVeigh. More than 80 people dead. Bombed a federal building in Oklahoma City.
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David Koresh
Hate by an unspeakable act. There is so little hope left.
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Theologian
I'm saying that when I get through writing these and they're given to my attorney and my attorney hands them over, what's the two theologians name? Philip Arnold and Jim Tabor. As you've shown that they have a sincere interest in these things. You see, then I can spend all my time in jail and people go and ask me all the stupid questions because they're not going to ask me about the seals. They're going to say, do you molest young ladies? Have you eaten babies? Do you sacrifice people? Do you make automatic weapons? Do you have bonds? That's what they're going to be interested in. Sensational.
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David Koresh
That's why you need to get it done before you leave there.
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Theologian
Then that's why I'm going to complete it. Because you see, you know as well as I do that people in this world, they want something dramatic and sensational. They don't want to have to sit. No one's going to sit there and let me sit there in front of a camera and read Psalms 40 to them to prove the first seal. Nick, it's a real world and that's why I'm sympathetic with your position. I realize you're frustrated and I agree with you.
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David Koresh
I'm not frustrated. I went home and I'm back. I'm no longer Frustrated? I never was frustrated.
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Theologian
Did you take a shower for me?
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David Koresh
Well, yeah, I took a couple of them for you.
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Theologian
Thank you. I appreciate it.
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David Koresh
Now listen, let's get back to the point in hand. This. You know the writing of the seals, okay, You've got to do that from in there. And it's going to take you x amount, amount of time. But just tell me this, David. Are you saying that when you finish that manuscript, then I'm not bound any longer? No, but see, that doesn't answer the question. I'll be out.
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Theologian
Yes, definitely.
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David Koresh
I know you'll be out, but that could. I couldn't. Excuse me, I've got a cold. That could mean a lot of things, David. That could mean I'll be in custody in the jailhouse.
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Theologian
You can come down there and feed me.
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David Koresh
No, I know, I know at some point in time that's true. But I'm. I'm getting from you, I'm asking you that when that is finished, are you then telling me that you are coming out the next day or two hours after you send that out?
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Theologian
When I bring it out, see, my attorney is gonna get the. Get to the copy, right? Okay. And as soon as he hands it over to the scholars, the theologians, right, that's when he's gonna come back and that's when I'm gonna go out with him. Because he said point blank that, you know, one of the guarantees of me arriving down there is that he's gon.
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Co-host
Foreign.
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Captain
February 28, 1993. Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms are attempting to execute warrants against David Koresh and the Branch Davidian compound located in or near Waco, Texas. This was supposed to be an operation that they wanted to include the media. And spoiler alert, it does. It goes horribly wrong. At 9am Waco News reporters arrive near the compound. Police radio communication indicates authorities may be preparing for a raid. So they actually notified the news in advance. The media's on the scene in a small capacity at 9am now, at 9:55am the ATF agents move in on the compound and things do not go well right from the get go. A gun fight. A gun battle begins at this time and lasts for approximately 20 minutes. They have to go into cleanup mode and right away because negotiations begin shortly after 10pm about 10:15, 10:20 to start moving the injured people from the gun battle.
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Co-host
And it's going to be become a he said, she said. Who shot first? We don't know.
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Captain
Yeah, we saw the same thing here with Ruby Ridge. You have Two sides, all heavily armed. And to be frank with everyone, I've looked at both of these scenarios, Ruby Ridge and Waco, dozens of times. It doesn't really seem to me like anybody had a great idea of what they were going to be doing and how to do it. And so you get a bunch of people that are heavily armed and scared out of their wits. Who knows? It's, it gets really difficult to say, especially when we have this number of people on both sides at Waco who did what first, who cast the first stone. And a lot of times you have to wonder, could you be in a situation where it's a nervous fire, somebody hears something and reacts with nervous gunfire that leads to everybody shooting at everybody. A little after 12 noon we get hospital helicopters that are flying away from the compound. And inside these helicopters, Captain, we have injured federal agents by 1:00pm Remember, keep in mind they, their attempt to go into the compound started at five minutes to 10am we're roughly three hours later. We have a spokesperson at the Waco hospital confirming the death of an ATF officer by 1pm so this is the first casualty or the first listed casualty in these news reports of the Waco siege standoff as it is on day number one. By 5pm we have an ATF spokesperson who is saying that gunfire continued sporadically throughout the afternoon. At 7:30pm Vernon Howell, or as we know him, David Koresh is interviewed by CNN at 8:15. ATF spokesperson says negotiations continue with. They're referring to them as cult members to the media at this time. And Koresh then goes for about 20 minutes in a talk with KRLD radio, which is located in Dallas, Texas. And during this 20 minute talk with radio DJ, he's describing his beliefs, what the Branch Davidians believe, or at least what he's telling them that his followers believe and saying that he, he, David Koresh is the most seriously wounded member of the Branch Davidians at that time. We would ultimately learn Here, Captain, the ATF agents Conway LeBlue, Todd McCahan, Robert Williams and Stephen Willis all were killed on March 1. In the early morning hours we have Acting Attorney General Stuart Gerson. He gives an update to President Bill Clinton who implicitly endorses a negotiation. Right, let's talk through this to create a solution, a non violent solution. Clinton is asking his cabinet members and his staff to keep him abreast to the situation, keep him up to speed. So negotiations will continue on this day. Over the course of the day, we do get 10 children that are sent out of the compound, the FBI takes control with a fully functioning command post that they set up. So notice that we've. We've morphed right away from ATF into FBI. Right, because the ATF was attempting to conduct those search warrants and execute those search warrants. Well, now we have people who've been killed. So ultimately, the FBI is the group that's going to be investigating the shooting deaths and now starting to take control over the situation.
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Co-host
Well, on David Koresh's compound, it's a large one, and the building looks odd, right? Yeah, I mean, it's. It seems very wonky. Like. Like every six months, let's just add another room onto this compound. But across the street was abandoned building. So I think that's where initially the ATF set up. And now, basically, because the FBI is getting involved, we basically have a whole military compound being set up directly across from David Koresh's compound.
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Captain
And God bless you for using the word wonky, because that was my. That was the exact word that came and popped into my brain when I. When I'm looking over the layout of the compound. But. But to paint a very basic picture for everyone. Maybe you're too young and you don't recall seeing the photographs in the newspapers or seeing news coverage of this horrific event, but it essentially looks like a fortress, right? Like a. Yeah, a fortress that was built by boy scouts surrounded by a military operation is really what.
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Co-host
It kind of looks like a suburban fortress because it's, you know, the vinyl siding. And we have a lot of things at play here. We have a big mistake by the atf. See, a lot of people don't talk about how Dave Koresh had contracts with some of the local schools where he would take care of their yards, mow and do other such chores, they had other options to serve these search warrants, and they could have done it where not everybody in the compound was involved, or by basically set up some kind of military operation to serve these search warrants, but they chose not to. Gunfire happens. But you also have to remember we also have members of this quote, unquote cult that are now in contact with the ATF and the FBI. And so they're giving them some kind of insight to who David Koresh is, how he thinks, how the followers think, what is involved with this compound, what where the weapons could be. And I mean, this is just a bad situation escalating quicker and quicker.
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Captain
And the captain's right in full review of everything here. If I almost believe if they would have got Dave Koresh when He was already outside of those four walls. Pick him up on the warrants or at least bring him in for questioning and then execute the search without him present. I have to believe this would have went down an entirely different way because I don't who. I mean, they could have had a contingency plan, the Davidians. But as you will see throughout the course of this standoff is not only is Koresh the leader, but at times the. The Davidians themselves seem to be hesitant to make any decisions of their own without his leadership. The compound, the fortress or, or the fort, as we called it, is the captain's exactly right. Wonky is a great description. It's like a patchwork quilt where they just kept adding on wings and hallways and additional rooms. So it's really kind of a labyrinth within those walls. And near the center of the structure is a concrete room which is used sort of as a storage area for their firearms and, and their food rations, but also will act as a bunker for portions of, especially the portions that involve gunfire of this standoff. Now the walls themselves of the compound are. I mean this thing was, was basically built out of recycled lumber and scrap wood and they have the siding there. But it's. It. I mean it's built by human hands. And it does not look like your house or mine. And I'm talking to the listeners there, unless you live in a fort out in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't look like your house. So we do get 10 children that are sent out of the compound. So that, that's some progress here. And by 5pm The FBI has taken control. They set up their command post. Koresh is reportedly extremely agitated, as he. One would expect him to be. The FBI agents deploy armored vehicles surrounding, basically surrounding the compound's perimeter. And they're, they're kind of moving them closer and closer. And he becomes. David Koresh becomes extremely agitated when the phone line is cut. So they cut the phone line. He's still able, the Davidians are still able to have outside communication, but that's only to the negotiators at this point.
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Co-host
And the people doing the negotiating for law enforcement will be the FBI.
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Captain
And at least twice during this day it's reported that David Koresh himself says to negotiators that suicide is not being contemplated by him or the group. So now we go to Tuesday, March 2nd. In the early morning hours, David Koresh makes a one hour audio tape of his religious teachings promising to surrender. Upon the national broadcast of this tape, this cassette tape at 1:30pm the tape is broadcast over the Christian broadcasting network. Near 6:00pm that evening, the word is relayed to negotiations from David Koresh that God has spoken to him and has told him to wait. So initially saying, we will come out, we will surrender, but then later, hours later, changing that to I've been instructed by God and we are. We're in a holding pattern right now.
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Co-host
Well, yeah, and I'm not trying to argue because this is a small detail. This case has been covered so much that it's really hard to get every detail I believe correct because I don't know if we know the details in some of these documentaries that are put together or these TV series. There's the Waco TV series, which is very good.
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Captain
Paramount on Paramount, which is brilliant. Yeah. And I believe they did a follow up, Waco Aftermath, which I thought was incredibly well done as well.
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Co-host
Yeah, it's almost like season one and season two. But they get some of the details wrong here. I think what the weight that's happening here is he's supposed to surrender, but then he tells the FBI, wait, I don't know if I'm going to surrender. I have to wait. I need to pray on this. So it's not that God is telling him to wait. He's waiting for God to tell him what's. What is his next move.
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Captain
Yes, and that is part of it. But again, the information I have is that he says, claims that God spoke to him, told him to wait. And what we will see is in the captain's exactly right. It's a small detail. Who knows who's exactly right here. But what we will see is throughout this is a standoff that's going to last days and weeks. And throughout the remainder of the standoff is when we will get that communication from Koresh that's saying, I, you know, I'm waiting instruction from God. I haven't heard anything yet. So we're still in this holding pattern. When we get to Wednesday the 3rd, the FBI tells the Davidians that. So there's some elderly people that are inside the compound. And they announced that murder charges for the. The killed ATF agents will. That the elderly people will not face the murder charges. And this is. This is got to be considered or looked at as a tactical way of encouraging them to send out some of the old folks. Right. Like go ahead and send them out. We're not charging them with murder here in. In this situation. Because that's one thing that gets lost in the sauce here when. When we talk about I, this is Something I was trying to sort out in my own head and with my own emotions in the past week or so is if I'm sitting inside that compound as a follower, knowing that, you know, I could, even if the claim is true, you know, Koresh, in, in, in the higher ups with the Davidians would say throughout a lot of this that they, that the followers are allowed to leave. Now that's up for debate. You know, that's something that has certainly been debated for, for decades now, but that has always been their statement that they are allowed to leave. They don't want to leave. Their, their truth is here. They fear God more than they fear man. They fear God more than they fear the government or any government entity, agency. But trying to sort this out of going, okay, I'm a dude sitting in this compound. ATF agents have been killed in active duty. I could stay or I could get up and leave. If what correct Koresh and others are saying is true, I could get up and leave whenever I want. But when I get beyond the walls of this compound, I'm likely facing murder charges. And oh, by the way, through the course of me walking out the front door, I may get shot to death by those same. By those fellow agents of those fallen agents.
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Co-host
Yeah. And if things get go from bad to worse and they don't have anybody else to pin these ATF agent murders on, you know, I might be going to prison and somebody might be touching my booty hole.
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Captain
Speaking with negotiators, David Koresh accounts for his failure to surrender as agreed, by saying he's dealing now with his father and not with your bureaucratic system of government. And he delivers various rambling sermons focusing on such biblical matters as unlocking the seven seals and interpreting God's intentions about the end of the world. In a late evening conversation, he is expressing how angry he is about the armored vehicles that have surrounded the compound and are moving about.
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Co-host
Yeah, but this is all going to work into his benefit. Because when you have somebody telling you I'm a prophet and I'm the chosen one, well, the biggest thing is belief. And so if some of your members. Because I think another thing that's not talked about that often is a lot of people gave up all their possessions and all their money. And so even if they disagreed with what was happening with inside their compound, it wasn't just like they could just walk out of there and, and catch a flight to Hawaii to get away. They would have to leave everything.
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Captain
So when this again, but again, not just leave everything, face murder Charges. And you know that you, if you're an adult, you're going to be facing murder charges because the FBI went out of their way to explain to you all those two elderly women that you got in there. We're not going to charge them with murder. That's.
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Narrator
I meant before you're charging everybody else with, with murder.
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Co-host
But what I'm saying is even before the siege, okay, you know, so when people go, well, as David's teachings go from peaceful and, and loving and more spiritual and, and good and more religious based to I'm a prophet and abusive and these three to four hour long sermon rants where he wouldn't let people go to the bathroom and people weren't allowed to fall asleep and they had nowhere to go. But once this siege happens and all this stuff is happening around you, helicopters and tanks and ATF agents and armor basically, and this is all the stuff that he's been telling you is going.
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Captain
To happen, you're seeing it play out.
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Co-host
So then what a lot of his followers talked about, or a couple of the ones that have survived said there was a sense within the compound of like, oh shit, this guy's been right the whole time he's been telling us this and now we're seeing it. And so because a lot of religion is believing in something that you can't see or you can't prove, but when, when you have that belief anyways, you have that faith anyways and now you're seeing it play out from your eyes, the belief becomes even stronger, the faith becomes even stronger within side the followers to David Kressh.
- [23:32]
Captain
Well, and the thing too is, yeah, like you said, this is playing out in front of their very eyes. And on more than one occasion we've seen, we know from the reports that we reviewed in the first part of our Waco coverage is that we're told things, fantastical ideas and prophecies by Mr. David Koresh prior to this, you know, that he had, he had impregnated as a 67, 68 year old woman, the baby would be the chosen one. It's some form, it's a miracle baby. And that the other portions of, you know, God's will, that the damage, the arson that was done to, to our property prior this was a judgment by God and a warning from God. So they've, they've experienced these prophecies in the past. And as you said, Captain, which is spot on, this is one that's playing out very similarly to how he's described it months and years prior. To, to what's going on in 1993 now on this day at the end. Remember, he's, he's very upset that they're moving around these armored vehicles late in the evening. And so this is, this is a threat to the FBI from David Koresh. He tells them that, you know, what you guys are doing is terrible. You, you know, we're the victims here. And you guys, you, you agents out there, you FBI agents are going to have to be the ones. You will be the ones that will be looking at the pictures of the little ones that end up perishing.
- [25:30]
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- [26:45]
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- [29:30]
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Captain
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- [30:36]
Co-host
All right, we are back. Cheers mates. Cheers to you Colonel.
- [30:41]
Captain
Cheers to you, Captain. This brings us to Friday, March 5th. We do get somebody else that's able to leave the compound. Here we get 9 year old Heather Jones. She leaves, but she's wearing a note that is pinned to her jacket. The note was written by her mother or at least the reports state that the mother wrote the note. And the note says once the children are out, the adults will die. The FBI concludes that the Davidians have one year, have a full one year supply of food including abundant military rations.
- [31:20]
Co-host
So they running water system and they.
- [31:23]
Captain
Are set up to be holed up inside that compound for an extended period of time. But the note pinned to the poor child, or at least she was lucky enough to get out, would imply that there's, there could be massive death here no matter how this thing shakes out. And the reports at this time too are that Koresh continues preaching, but also threatening violence.
- [31:50]
Co-host
The FBI at this point, they got the helicopters, they're shining the lights on them at night, they're playing music at all hours. The one that was disturbing to me was one of the survivors were saying it sounded like they were playing audio tape of like rabbits being slaughtered. Slaughtered. And these are like war tactics. And I think that's why, I mean the initial, you're bringing basically an army to serve a warrant. And in a situation that you didn't have to serve him in in the first place, I mean it just seems like there was bad decision after bad decisions on. And it's on both parties. There's bad decisions happening and, and torturous, horrible decisions being made by law enforcement, but also torturous and horrible decisions being made by the individuals in this. Well, not just David, but other individuals within this religious group.
- [33:00]
Captain
And it's like we said with Ruby Ridge, when nobody's right, everybody's wrong. And this, this is more of that. Sadly. Now the. What, what was right. The, the. The few things that did go right here is regardless if we agree of any of the tactics by law enforcement and the negotiators, regardless if we agree with Koresh in any of his decision making on his side. One thing that I, the only thing that I really truly see that is right by both parties is the FBI negotiators are continually asking Koresh to send people out. And we do. At least to up to this point in our timeline, we have seen some people sent out. So that's the only good, the only smart decisions that really seem to be being made here now On Sunday the 7th, March 7th, they're continuing their negotiations with Koresh. The talks basically are going round and round in circles. Articles the FBI is refusing to deliver milk to the compound. And they say, look, you guys are requesting milk, we're not. And they're saying we need it for the children, especially the young ones. Unfortunately, they are some very young kids, 1, 2 years old kids inside this structure. And so they're saying we need milk for the children. FBI saying, we're not bringing you that unless you release some more people. And Koresh is saying, look, all of the children that remain inside of the compound are my biological descendants. On March 8, Koresh. It's reported that his wounds. Remember he was wounded in the gunfire.
- [34:54]
Co-host
Yeah. He shot in his hand. Right.
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Captain
And his correct abdomen.
- [35:00]
Co-host
Yeah.
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Captain
And so he. It's reported that he is healing well. And not just well, better and better and above what was expected. Well, at the time, injured, of course. He's. He's so manly. He can impregnate an elderly woman. Of course he's going to heal like Wolverine.
- [35:22]
Co-host
Yeah.
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Captain
The FBI does deliver six gallons of milk this day. This is just the day after saying you, we're not going to. Going to. Unless you release more people. They didn't release anybody. But a videotape of the children inside the compound was sent out by the Davidians to law enforcement. Negotiators say that the tape. Upon review, there is concern that if the. The tape is released to the media, that Koresh may gain a lot of sympathy. Yeah.
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Co-host
Well, what David Krish was doing, which I think was smart, is he was filming his followers to say, let's introduce the world to the followers and what they believe and who they are as people. And so if this gets out to the world, then people will not see these individuals as crazy cult members, but they'll see them as actual humans and families. Yeah.
- [36:24]
Captain
And nobody wants children to be involved in this.
- [36:27]
Co-host
No. But. But also Nobody wants a 14 year old to be married to a cult leader or.
- [36:34]
Captain
Yes. Or. Or having babies with the, the cult leader and.
- [36:39]
Co-host
Right.
- [36:39]
Captain
You know, I, I think if you look up David Koresh, I believe that it's. That it is said that he fathered 16 children. We know of the one child that he had no involvement with because the mom wanted nothing to do with him. But so he had 15 kids on top of that.
- [36:57]
Co-host
And I don't know why all these guys that want to be cult leaders also play music. And if you look at like a Charles Manson, if you ever hear a recording of him, it's questionable on what talent level he has, but I, I do have to say, I think out of all the crazy cult leaders, Dave Kresh might hold the top spot as far as guitar talent. And he had a good singing voice. And that's the and that's enough praising.
- [37:28]
Captain
The wacko, the top 20 cult leader. Casey Kasem, Countdown yes, we have David Koresh sits at the top. On Tuesday, March 9, they cut off the electricity to the compound. Koresh says he will not negotiate further until the power is restored. They do restore the power and we get reports here at this time that the hostage release team for the law enforcement, they're reporting that they are seeing weapons in the windows of the compound and that firing ports were being cut. So what they did was they covered up the windows for their own protection because they were taking on gunfire with these large pieces of plywood. Well, on this day, it's reported again by law enforcement that they are seeing the Davidians cut holes in the plywood, which is an implication that they attend, that they intend to use those as firing ports for their long guns or their rifles and what have you. The following day, electricity is temporarily cut off again and there is about four and a half hours of negotiation but no progress. On Friday the 12th, Janet Reno, who has is a large name in this story, but it was interesting to learn that she was not I didn't recall this. I mean, you and I were little boys when this went down. I didn't recall this part of it. I recalled her being a big part of the story, but I didn't know that she wasn't the attorney general when the standoff started. So she's sworn in on March 12th and actually takes over. The FBI orders all electricity to be cut off for good because the negotiators wanted those inside the compound to experience the same wet and cold conditions at night that the tactical personnel was experiencing outside of the compound. And they also say that they wanted the just part of that justification. Captain was cutting the power. It's going to be very cold at night. It's March. They wanted maximum effect on the Davidians to be uncomfortable. They because if, if they truly were allowed to leave, as Koresh is telling them, they're trying to give good reason for these followers to get up and leave, if that's the truth. But they also want to make a statement here, right? Cutting off the power was also making a statement designed to challenge David Koresh's control of the situation.
- [40:10]
Co-host
And, and again, the tough thing too is they have former members and former leaders. They have his former right hand man basically begging Them from the beginning, you. You are playing into his hands because this is what he's been preaching. So. And I couldn't imagine being one of his followers. And if you have any doubt about him, I think that doubt goes away when the siege starts. And I think every day for a lot of these followers, it became stronger. And we do have, you know, interviews of some of the surviving members that were like, yeah, at first we were afraid, but then there became the strength of, well, what he's telling us is true. And then people weren't even afraid to die because their leader has been telling them this is how it's going to go down. And now it's going down this way. So now we believe what he's saying even more. And he's saying, hey, there's a place in the kingdom of heaven for you.
- [41:19]
Captain
Because of all this, of course, because he. With these apocalyptic beliefs, they almost all end in a battle between good and evil.
- [41:31]
Co-host
Yeah.
- [41:31]
Captain
And so of course you're going to go to heaven because you were fighting for the good side. You. You didn't bow down to evil. On Saturday, March 13, of course, we got the people inside. They're cold, they're freezing. They have no electricity. The FBI notifies David Koresh that his mother has retained two attorneys on his behalf to represent him. So, Mr. Koresh, you have legal representation at this time? The following day, at nightfall, the FBI begins to illuminate the compound with bright lights. This is. This is as. As the FBI would tell us that this is supposed to have a two pronged effect. One, to disrupt the sleep of the persons inside of the compound, putting additional pressure and stress on them. But two, to increase the safety of their outside teams, of the hostage release teams. If anybody that's been in a situation like this, where you are in the dark and there are bright lights that surround you, anything beyond those bright lights, you. You usually can't see any of that. So effectively, it's creating a wall of light for the agents to hide behind. On Monday, March 15, the FBI establishes a modified negotiation strategy, continuing to insist on peaceful resolution, but refusing to listen to any more of what they are referring to as Bible babble. On Thursday the 18th, the FBI broadcasts a message to those in the compound over a loudspeaker saying that they will be treated fairly if they come out. Nobody. Nobody comes out. But on the 19th, the FBI. I. I guess this is an attempt to address some of the Davidians concerns about the. The legal matters. The FBI delivers to the compound legal documents and letters from Koresh's attorneys and some other items. And Koresh says that he is ready to come out and face the music. Two Davidians, this is Brad Branch and Kevin Whitecliff. They come out of the compound. The next day, Rita Riddle comes out of the compound. So we got three more people that have been released. And then on Sunday, March 21, we get Victorine Hollingsworth and Anita Richards exit the compound. Gladys Oppman, Sheila Martin, James Lawton and Ophelia Santoya come out of the compound as well. In the evening hours, the FBI begins playing very loud music, including Tibetan chants over the loudspeaker. This is. At some point, it morphs into what the captain said about the rabbits being slaughtered, which is. Sounds horrific.
- [44:27]
Co-host
Well, I could be wrong, but some of these individuals are coming out on their own. Some of them are being released. But that small group that you just talked about, I think they were actually released by David to be like talking heads. Hey, we're going to release you. So then you can talk to law enforcement directly and you can be kind of the talking heads for our group.
- [44:53]
Captain
On Tuesday, March 23, at 10am an individual named Livingstone Fagan leaves the compound. This is going to be the last one during the standoff to leave the compound. And we have Assistant US Attorney William Johnston of Waco writes a letter to Janet Reno complaining about the FBI's handling of the scene, especially the moving of the vehicles around the compound. So he's at the local level and he's saying, look, I don't really like what I see or how the FBI is conducting themselves at the scene. At 10pm The FBI shines floodlights on the compound and plays over the loudspeakers tapes of. Of previous negotiations. And they're now. They're also playing messages from those who had exited the compound. On Wednesday, the 24th, the FBI, they're back to their tactics of playing Tibetan chance Christmas music and. And all kinds of shenanigans. The Davidians refuse to talk. At the daily press briefing, the FBI escalates its verbal assault against David Kesh, calling him a liar and a coward. The next day, there's an FBI ultimatum. 10 to 20 people must leave by 4pm or some action will be taken. At 4pm armored vehicles move into the compound and remove motorcycles and golf carts and go karts that belong to the Davidians. When they cut the electricity, it was cold. We know they were. It was cold because the Davidians were complaining that they were freezing inside. And we already talked about how this structure was put together and how it Was constructed. And so it's not this structure that's built to. To keep people warm inside of there. So what they were doing with these. These hay bales. They. The bales of hay, they were stacking them along the. The window. Sorry. Along the walls inside. Almost creating like a insulation.
- [46:56]
Co-host
Right.
- [46:56]
Captain
To. To help them keep warm. And then the other part of this, too, is, look, David Koresh, and I'm not. I. I'm not going out of my way to throw him any compliments here, but he was not a dumb guy. He was probably pretty brilliant, maybe brilliantly wrong, but. But probably very smart.
- [47:17]
Co-host
He was evil genius. In a sense.
- [47:20]
Theologian
He.
- [47:20]
Captain
He was quite intelligent. But then I also wonder here, captain, are we at this point where this dude is so far gone that on some level, does he. You talk about, well, if this goes good, how. How do I come out of this? If this goes bad, how do we come out of this? I have to wonder, too, if at this point, is this dude so far gone that he may believe that he's right, that he is in the right and doing the right thing and doing what's in the best interest of him and his group all at the same time?
- [47:52]
Co-host
Well, again, because you have these followers. I mean, he's taking some of his followers. Children as his wives, and they're allowing it. So. Yeah, the more you're.
- [48:07]
Captain
As his church wives. Yeah.
- [48:09]
Co-host
Yeah. I mean, what do you call that? He's living in an echo chamber. So the echo chamber is just telling him, reinforcing him for years, that he is right for years. That he is the prophet for years. I mean, when these individuals, whether it's because of the abuse or because they have issues themselves, to be able to stand up in a. In a group of people and have them listen to you with no bathroom breaks or anything for hours upon hours, and a lot of these individuals just hanging on to every word he says and every belief he has and pinching.
- [48:49]
Captain
Their pee pees so they don't wet themselves.
- [48:52]
Co-host
Right.
- [48:53]
Captain
Like a little boy.
- [48:56]
Co-host
God said, pinch your pb, you know?
- [48:58]
Captain
Yeah.
- [48:58]
Co-host
And I would just.
- [49:00]
Captain
I would let it flow and just water myself. And if anybody looks at me with a side eye, I just. It was God's will. The, you know, Mr. Koresh wanted me to listen to his teachings, and it was God's will. I was bound to wet myself at some point.
- [49:17]
Co-host
Yeah. Jesus turned water into wine. I'm turning water into pp.
- [49:21]
Captain
I'm turning my jeans into stank. So this is right around the time where I believe that they they start, remember, they started using the armored vehicle to tear down vehicles to tear down some of the fencing that was around the, the compound.
- [49:40]
Co-host
Yeah. And, and also putting these vehicles very close to the compound itself. And I think this is when they're making this decision that this is not going to end well, period. And maybe we're going to be the ones to end it well.
- [49:55]
Captain
And this has got to make the guys, the people inside, the families inside, terrified. And of course, koresh at this point is, is reminding the FBI, hey, I'm still, we have no intentions of dying in here. And I'm still waiting for the word of God, waiting for word from God as to what we are to be doing now. Over the course of a couple days, David koreshan, one of the attorneys that his mother got for him, they are allowed to meet face to face. There's some pretty famous photos of this activity as well, where you can see david koresh and the attorney standing talking face to face for hours at the front door of the compound. On March 30, on a hill approximately three miles away from the compound, there's a large number of folks gathered to observe what was happening at the mount carmel compound. We have journalism student michelle roche who interviews a gulf war veteran, 24 year old u. S. Army veteran timothy james McDonald vay. He is there handing out bumper stickers and pro gun rights pamphlets with slogans on them like when guns are outlawed, I will become an outlaw. He told the student reporter, the government is afraid of the guns people have because they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns, you can do anything to the people. You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to prepare to defend themselves against government control. On April 1, the two attorneys spend the day inside the compound. So now the attorneys are allowed inside by the FBI. The davidians say that they will leave. They the attorneys go back to the FBI and say, this is what we heard. This is what we were told. The davidians are saying that they're going to leave either tomorrow, April 2nd or on April 10th. This has something to do with passover and the observance of passover. I don't quite know the details of that, but we do know that on Sunday, April 4, the lawyers meet again with david koresh and reiterate that everyone will come out after PASO. Now on April 5, the Davidians observe Passover. On April 7, David Koresh refuses to confirm an exit date. Hostage release team commander Richard Rogers proposes a tier gas plan to force the Davidians out of the structure.
- [52:51]
Co-host
Yeah, one of the most interesting interviews was with the FBI negotiator because they're trying to negotiate with somebody where they're giving him what he wants and then he's basically changing his mind. Well, I'll give you this if you give me this. But then he doesn't follow through with his end of the bargain the majority of the time. And then they're getting pressure from anybody that's on the tactical side going, let's stop negotiating with this yahoo and let's brain force. So it'd be a very tough place to be in as far as the negotiator standpoint.
- [53:33]
Captain
On Friday, April 9, David Koresh sends a letter to the FBI saying the heavens are calling you to judgment. And he actually sends a series of letters to the FBI. Over the course of the next couple of days. We get two FBI experts, psychological experts from the FBI that analyze these letters and they walk away with the conclusion that David Koresh was possibly a psychotic and he had actually truly had no intention of, of leaving voluntarily from Mount Carmel. The FBI finalizes plans to use tear gas and seeks Janet Reno's approval on their new course of action. Sunday, April 11th is Easter Sunday. And there, there are some negotiations, there are some talks, but they don't go anywhere on Easter Sunday. On the 12th, the tear gas plan is presented to Janet Reno not as an all out assault on the Davidians, but as a tactic whereby gas will be inserted in stages periodically into the compound, initially into only one small area of the compound. The goal of this, obviously, if you're only putting it into one small section of the compound, is to not only drive them out of that area, but away from that area and encouraging them to exit through an uncontaminated portion of the compound. On the 13th, for most of the afternoon, David Koresh, he's, he's on the phone with negotiators and he is Bible thumping them essentially. Right? He's using that, what, what the FBI was referring to as Bible babble. And he starts reminding them that he is, he still not, doesn't know when they will come out. And he's not coming out until God tells him to do so. On the 14th, we get, we get some, this is where things start to shift a little bit and, and really in full review of this here, Captain, when I reviewed this part, part of me, I mean, of course we all wish that it didn't go down the way that it went down.
- [55:50]
Co-host
Right.
- [55:51]
Captain
I, I've not talked to one person that's like they did the right thing. And, and when I say they, I mean either side.
- [55:58]
Co-host
Right.
- [55:59]
Captain
This is the part that makes me wonder, could it have been possible to just wait a little bit longer and maybe they would have come out? Because on the 14th, and this plays, this goes toward their teaching and to, and to what they follow and what they believe. David Koresh tells the FBI that we're. Look, we're not going to. We will surrender eventually, but we are not going to surrender until I have written a manuscript that explains the seven seals on the 16th. So this is two days later. Koresh tells negotiators, you know, just be patient. I have completed the manuscript on the first seal. So there are seven of them. It would, it would seem to me that if he's telling the truth on these matters, then it's, it could be a 14 day waiting period. If in fact he's completed this manuscript in a two day time period, well, he's got six more to go. And if he could do it at the same pace, we might be 12 days away from people walking out of this compound.
- [57:07]
Co-host
Yeah, but again, it's difficult situation for law enforcement because this yahoo has been lying to you the whole time.
- [57:14]
Captain
Correct. And he is doing what law enforcement hates. He's controlling the situation. Law enforcement cannot stand that. And in fact, at times it's downright dangerous for law enforcement to not be in control of the situation. Now, Janet Reno does reject the tear gas plan on the 16th. I don't know if that is in direct relation to Koresha telling them that he's making progress on his manuscript the next day. There's an individual, it was a man, his name Lewis was not a Branch Davidian, but somehow I guess snuck into the compound early during this standoff. I have no idea why anybody would want to do something like this and put themselves directly in harm's way. But on this day, he leaves the compound. This is also the same day that Janet reno approves the FBI's tear gas plan. But she, remember, what's going on here is she basically states, I'll leave the details and the tactical decisions up to those at Waco.
- [58:25]
Co-host
Right. I do believe this Lewis guy was actually an agent that they had infantry the compound. He was. If I'm thinking of the same guy.
- [58:37]
Captain
That would make a lot of more sense.
- [58:40]
Co-host
Yeah. So he was like, he was in there before the siege even happened. He was Pretending to be a member. Because what you have to remember is yes, the, the guns, that's a concern. But when you have all these other reports of child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, they had to be able to confirm this on some level. And so that's who I believe this Lewis guy is that.
- [59:10]
Captain
You know what, I think you're exactly right that he, I, I, what I think we have here is if I remember correctly, they didn't identify him as an undercover agent until well after.
- [59:24]
Co-host
Right.
- [59:24]
Captain
The events of Waco. And part of that is you, you know, the, these entities should not be in the business of outing their undercover agents. On Sunday, April 18, Janet Reno briefs Bill Clinton on their CS gas plan of forcing the Davidians out. The president concurs with Reno, but asks questions about assuring the children will be safe, but adds it, you know, it's your decision. You're in control here. He does push. Clinton did push and remind the parties involved here and the parties that the in power that he was still hoping that it could be negotiated and whatever problems or in the murders that took place, whatever accountability needed to be dealt out with, along with punishments, he wanted to see this play out in the court system, not in, in a, in a war type setting. This portion of the story is, is heavily debated, but it was well reported, especially early on after, after the events of Waco. So I didn't want to skip over it here, Captain, but there were reports that the. So on the 18th, armored vehicles, they continue to, to get closer and closer to the compound. Right. They're working their way in. They're, they're closing in and they even clear out David Koresh's personal vehicle and a bunch of other vehicles that were in front of the compound. They removed those. And the FBI is warning the Davidians to stay out of the tower. They're seeing them up in the tower of the FBI reports. As the reports go, they're holding up children in the windows. And one window there's a sign that says flames await. And then that takes us to the sad, tragic and horrifically unfortunate events of the following day, April 19, 1993. From midnight till about 5:30am Everything's quiet. There's no reports of even blaring music or sounds previously used by the FBI. At about 10 minutes to 6am federal agents reportedly call the compound and inform the members to give up or they will be gassed.
- [62:08]
Co-host
And I think their thought was, we have these tanks. We're going to hit parts of their building with these tanks, not, not with explosives. And then we're going to start shooting in this gas and we're going to see a flood of people leave.
- [62:30]
Captain
I hope that was their intention and I hope that was their hopes as well.
- [62:33]
Narrator
Yes.
- [62:34]
Co-host
Yeah, yeah.
- [62:35]
Captain
So what you would have is you would use the tanks to basically bust in or bust through a portion of a wall, a perimeter wall of the fortress, and then send in the gas, fire in the gas and draw them out, force them out. At 6am There's a department of Public Safety officer that is warning. Remember, we have those people that are just there in observance, right? You have the media that has gathered, you have Timothy McVeigh and other people that have gathered. And so these people are all approximately two to three miles away, but they're being warned to take cover and to get the hell out of here. Because you see those tanks up there, we're about to start using them and we don't know exactly what's going to happen and we don't want any members of the public to be injured or worse. At 604, an armored vehicle smashes through the front wall of the compound just left of the front door, leaving a hole about 8ft or, sorry, 8ft in height and 10ft wide. At 6:15, an ambulance rushes toward the compound with lights flashing. At 6:55, authorities call the Hillcrest Baptist Medical center in Waco. And they say, be on alert, be on alert. They, they're notifying them, hey, we think we're going to be sending you a whole bunch of people real soon, right? At 8am an armored vehicle with a large battering arm rips into the second floor of the compound. And minutes later, another hole is punched into the backside of the compound. At 8:05, 14 hospital staffers are called in and four additional doctors are called in. Right. Remember, this is still a ready response team essentially is being built at the local hospital. At 9am President Clinton says he has been briefed on the assault and the US Attorney General, Janet Reno has given the go ahead for the tactical plan. At 9:20am an armored vehicle returns to the compound and bashes another hole in the front wall of the compound, taking out the front door. At 10:30, FBI Special Agent Ricks says that the continued ramming of the building and the introduction of tear gas is intended as the next logical step to ending the 51 day standoff. The agents in the armored vehicles are met with 65 to 80 gunshots from inside the compound as they approach. He says agents did not return fire, no one was injured. He says the compound was rammed 10 or 10, 10 or 11 times in the original assault, tearing holes in walls and the roof. Each ramming met with 10 to 12 shots. Again, that report is coming from the FBI, so take that for what you will.
- [65:51]
Co-host
But also when they're interviewing AFT agents, FBI agents, and because we have to remember there's, there's also a bunch of followers that are on the outside now watching this play out in real time live on the news. And everybody's wondering why aren't they coming out? Where are the people? What the hell is going on in there?
- [66:16]
Captain
At five minutes after noon, a vehicle hits the corner of the compound, knocking another sizable hole in it. Five minutes after that, flames and smoke are seen pouring from the compound. High winds are whipping the building and fanning the flames. And one thing that is reported to us constantly is in regard to the, the gas, the CS gas and then the flames being seen is they do, they do constantly remind us about the, the time period, right that the window of time between when we stopped firing gas into the compound and when the flames actually were seen. And I believe that, that those statements are, that there was roughly one hour between those two events. Because truly, look, there's a lot of opinions about what happened, who's who, who should be facing more blame, what side should be facing more blame here. But really, truly, I've, I've reviewed this thing and reviewed this thing and looked for every bit of information out there and some of it is, is one sided, some of it is very opinionated. Some of it says that the Davidians did nothing wrong and that they were murdered and, and tortured and, and killed. And then there are other opinions out there that that was the, the FBI had to do something and the Davidians were, were crazy or just led by this psychotic crazy individual that, that let his followers take the fall on alongside of him, which we've seen other, in other cults. We've seen it time and time again throughout history. So it's not hard to believe or too terribly difficult to believe that this may have happened again here. But really, truly, Captain, the only thing I feel confident saying when we want to talk about things like blame or ultimately who was to blame the most is there's three scenarios here and all three of them are plausible. A, that the FBI murdered these extreme Christian people who just wanted to be left alone and, and carry out their, their, their beliefs, their belief system. Or two, the Davidians were a bunch of wackos in Waco led by a wacko who convinced them just stay inside and let's will burn to death and martyrdom. Or the other option is that the FBI never intended for the, the building to, to go up in flames. The Davidians never set fire to the structure and there was a spark somewhere in that building. And we talked about the structure, we talked about how it was built, we talked about the hay barrel barrels, we talked about them firing CS gas into the building, which is not, I want to be clear here, my general understanding. And there's several ways that you can. There's several different chemical cocktails that can make up tear gas. And depending on what kind they were using or what chemical cocktail they were using. This is not highly flammable stuff here. However, it is somewhat combustible. It might not be easily or readily lit on fire, but it can be lit on fire. So I mean, it's, I mean, look, it's. I, maybe I'm holding back a few opinions here, but I know a lot of people out there have strong opinions one way or the other on this, but I think all of us can agree that this was a horrible outcome to a bad situation and nobody wanted it to end this way. I, I hope that, I really do hope that. And I mean that when I say nobody wanted to end this way. I'm not talking about people listening to, to us, to our presentation. I'm not talking about people that were sitting at home on their couches watching this play out on the 6:00 and 11:00 news back in 1993. I'm talking about David Koresh and I'm talking about the negotiators for the FBI and the people that make decisions, good or bad, on behalf of the FBI. Those are the people that I'm saying I hope nobody wanted any kind of outcome like this at all. On April 19, the fire at the Mount Carmel compound, it completely destroyed the compound. According to the FBI. FBI agent Steve Schneider, David Koresh's top aide, shot and killed Koresh and then himself. 76 people died in the fire, including 20 children. ATF agents Conway LeBlue, Todd McCahan, Robert Williams and Stephen Willis, they were killed prior to the fire. They were killed when the standoff started. Meanwhile, many miles away, convicted cop killer, murderer and white supremacist Richard Wayne Snell was still being held at the Tucker unit at a maximum security prison in Jefferson County, Arkansas. His appeals were running out and his execution day, a date with a needle injected into the veins of his right arm, accompanied by a lethal dose of the Arkansas state death penalty, was drawing closer. And closer every day. Foreign.
- [72:38]
Co-host
True crime check out truecrimegarage.com make sure you sign up on the mailing list and check out our merchandise. It's a great way to support the show and get something cool in return. And until next week, be good, be.
- [72:51]
Captain
Kind, and don't lose.
- [72:59]
Co-host
SA.
- [73:29]
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