Co-host (The Captain) (2:46)

And a big we like you Jib from Danielle and Napa.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (2:49)

Next we have Lisa and Chad from Toronto that say go Bucks, Michigan sucks.

Co-host (The Captain) (2:56)

And big shout to Jenny in Austin, Texas.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (2:58)

Next up we have Angie Clark in South Lake Tahoe, California. And last but certainly not least, a big cheers and thank you to Cole, Switzerland. Beautiful Sherwood Park, Canada. Everyone we just mentioned went to trucrimegarage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund. And for that, well, we are thankful.

Co-host (The Captain) (3:19)

And when you're@trucrimegarage.com make sure you sign up on our mailing list, check us out on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. If you need more episodes, download the Stitcher app. It's free. And check out our bonus show, called off the Record. And that is enough of the business.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (3:38)

Alright, everybody, gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. John Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970. In the field, he served as a hostage negotiator. He transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit, or BSU for short, in 1977, where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico. Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling program. While traveling around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies, Douglas began interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons. He interviewed some of the most notable violent criminals as part of the study, including David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, Charles Manson, and Edmund Kemper. He used the information gathered from these interviews. He examined crime scenes and and created profiles of the perpetrators, describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move. In cases where his work helped to capture the criminals, he built strategies for interrogating and prosecuting them as well. Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders. Douglas first made a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977-1981. He is the author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books, Mindhunter and the Cases that Haunt Us. And he's joining us here in the Garage today via telephone. And Mr. Douglas, it is an honor to have you joining us once again.

John Douglas (5:34)

Well, thank you.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (5:35)

First off, Mr. Douglas, everybody wants to know, will there be season three of mine? Hunter, you certainly have the inside track. What can you tell us? Will it happen?

John Douglas (5:45)

And when I tell you the now it's like two months ago, I got a call from Holt McCallany who plays Bill Tench character. He stayed with me when he was developing his part in the show, but he sounded kind of grim. And was that all the actors wanted to return? But it was a question with David Fincher, the director. He spent so much time, so much time filming in Pittsburgh for each season he spent about seven months there. And he's such a perfectionist that the actors are working almost the entire year on each series. What they were saying that he's exhausted. I just don't personally understand it neither some of the actors. Why don't you get you some Other directors. There were other directors involved in season one and season two of the 19 total episodes and two seasons, Fincher did seven of them. Personally did seven. But when he did the series House of Cards, he starred it. But then other directors took over for the show. So I don't. I mean, it's just everyone's, you know, hoping. It got tremendous ratings. The reviews were. We're all, you know, all good. But, I mean, it doesn't. For now, it's not. He takes, you know, if you can recall season two, the first episode, just give you an idea. There was a barbecue scene with Bill Tench, and he's meeting his neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the profiling and at Quantico and all that. And he started asking questions. That one scene was repeated nearly 75 times. 75 times before Fincher approved it. How he wanted that scene to go. And it's because, I mean, he's made Netflix a lot of money. You know, if it was anyone else, they say they would say, okay, it's fine. We'll get another director. But, no, they're not doing it. But I just. In the back of my mind, I just think they will at some point. I may be dead and buried, but at some point, I hope they'll bring it back. There's so much more to tell. I mean, even season two, the Atlanta child killings, I mean, and the people listening to your show have to realize that's based on the book, but it's not the book. Like, the Atlanta case did not go down like that. In fact, in reality, I thought it went down in the real way. It went down a lot more dramatic. And my role in that case, as far as coaching the prosecution on how to interrogate him when he would take the stand, my attitude toward the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how they were going to throw my ass out of there. They did, because I was just so critical of them on how they testified. They were so technical, no one could even understand what they were saying. I mean, I couldn't understand what they were saying. And the defense experts that they brought in, talk. They may have been saying stuff that's not correct, their analysis, but it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow. And they were nodding their heads like an agreement with their experts. So there's so much, you know, so they. They didn't finish that case. I would think of season three. They got that case. I mean, they got. They have I think there's so many different cases. The Ted Bundy case, they could do Robert Hansen up in Alaska, who hunted women down like wild animals, which set them loose in the wilderness. And you have that case, the. You have buffalo.22 caliber killer. I mean, it's just the Tylenol case, then cases of smaller. No one really, the public doesn't even know about, but just very, very interesting, interesting, you know, cases. And it may not follow the book, they're kind of interpreting it the way they want to, but it's better than some of the other shows that I've seen. Even like with Criminal Minds, it was a very successful show, but Behavioral science unit, when you're in that unit, you don't go. You're not out making arrests, you're not taking cases away from police, you're not kicking down doors. It's cerebral when you reach the unit and you're a coach, you're coaching FBI, you're coaching local law enforcement on how to investigate or lead them in the best direction for, say, an unknown subject case. So what they portrayed in Mindhunter series was good. Hopefully it's a five year. It was a five year arc to the show. It's supposed to be on for five years and then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years. So we will see.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (11:03)

Yes. When asked to give a brief description about Mindhunter, when I recommend the show to friends and family, I always say it's the more adult, more intelligent, real life version of Criminal Minds.

John Douglas (11:17)

Yeah, I mean, it's just there's such interest in that kind of show today in these crime conferences around the country. It just, it's amazing when I haven't done any public speaking because the COVID virus, but when I've been going out conferences, 80, 90% of the audience are women too, that are really into this. Well, they want to know because too, they're the victims of the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues have worked over the years and they're interested in to better understand the personality what creates these people, what makes these people, you know, different than we are. What was their backgrounds? Was it predictable that they would commit, you know, these types of. Types of crimes? And now with all these dating services, you know, meeting people, you know, at locations you don't know. You know, just because someone puts a nice picture up and gives you this background, this little bio, doesn't mean that's who the person really is. My mother, when my since passed away, she used to tell my sister, when you meet when you meet a man or boy, this was years ago. When you meet a boy, ask him what his relationship is with his mother. And my mother was right on the money there. Because of the people who I've interviewed, some of the most violent offenders, there was always an issue on the mother's side where there was this abuse or neglect of some type going on with them. And they loved their mother in St. Thomas, hated their mother. When I interviewed Gary Heidnik from Philadelphia, who kept women in the pit, like in the movie Silence of the Lambs, I interviewed him. Leslie Stahl of 60 Minutes just got to 60 Minutes. That's how long ago it was in 1991, and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview where I interviewed Gary Heidnik. And when I got around to talking about his mother, he just went absolutely nuts, you know, and crying and, you know, he loved her and hated her all at the same time. And she was very, very abusive toward him. And this is not to say that everyone is abused will turn out to be a violent, you know, anything. But I'm just saying of the people who I've interviewed, rarely, I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving, nurturing kind of background. They all had some type of dysfunction in their lives.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (13:42)

Let's talk about the still unsolved terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac. You reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them.

John Douglas (14:04)

Yeah, the. With. Well, with the Zodiac, we never. The unit really never got involved with the analysis of that case. We've had a lot of people come forward over the years. There's been different suspects, you know, developed. When that case was going on. We really didn't even have a behavioral science unit. When we finally got the case, it was when so called Zodiac was writing a communication, wrote a communication to the detective who was assigned to the case. He had a private office, a private line hotline. And so we got. We were going to do an analysis of the communication. We call it psycholinguistic analysis. All it is is just you're doing a profile of the author of the communication. The police immediately called us up and said, stop, forget about it. Why? We figured out who wrote the communication. Who was it? The detective. What? The detective wrote the communication himself to. He's trying to. Because he had not had any good leads, no lead. Everything just died. There was nothing going on. And to perpetuate case. He wrote this so called letter from the, you know, the Zodiac. But as far as, I mean, it's a case. If it was a case today, I think we'd be successful when you get a case like that. And how I was evolving when I was the unit chief in the bureau and training others, I was kind of de emphasizing the profile because the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads, you're trying to pique the mind interest of people who may know some of the characteristics that are fitting this character, the person responsible for the crime. So I began to focus in more on proactive techniques and to maybe get the subject to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to go to a particular location because we may have planted something there, we may have had a memorial service there. And just give you an example, I was sent to go before the Internal affairs, they call opr, Office of Professional Responsibility, which is not good when you go before Internal Affairs. And so I went before a whole group and they said, john, you're not lying, are you? To the media, through the media, to the public. You're not lying, are you? I said, what do you mean? Are you telling the truth? I said, well, I don't know. I said, let me give you an example. I said, there's a case. And I told him, there's a case in San Diego that a woman, car was broken down off the side of the road. She determined she ran out of gasoline. No one knows where she is for a day or two. Then they find her up outside of San Diego in some foothills and she has a dog collar around her neck. She's been sexually assaulted and she's been garrotted. I worked with the police. I'm telling the Internal affairs this. I worked with the police. We came out with a series of articles. I said, because it was my opinion that whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station. So she thought. And so we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead value. Did anyone see anything? Did anyone see anything? Any vehicle stop, any description of a vehicle or car? We put that out, we fled the airways and we waited a couple days and now we come out with another. We're getting very good leads, thanking the public, we are now getting a description of not only the vehicle, but the individual who stopped alongside of the victim's car. The purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to come up with a legitimate reason why he may have been spotted there. And sure enough, the guy injects himself into the investigation. Just so you know that I was there. I offered her a ride. She said she ran out of gas, but she said no. So I went on my merry way. So I told internal affairs that was. That was the guy. We arrested him or the police arrested him. Now, if you're telling me, you're telling me, am I lying to the press or whatever. Well, it's not exactly the truth. It's not the truth, but we caught this. The police caught it by using this technique. And so they look at me and they say, well, we'll just tell you something, we understand what you're saying, but if it ever gets out or anything, or you screw up, man, we're going to have your head. We're going to have your head. I'll be working cattle rustling cases in Butte, Montana or someplace, if not fired from the bureau. So I started really working on proactive kinds of things and interview techniques and suggestions because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic. So someone will say, well, that profile, they said he would have a college education and this guy, only he's a high school educationer. We may miss the age, which is difficult. Age is difficult because there's chronological age and behavioral age, and you may miss that. We missed the Arthur Shawcross case up in Rochester, New York. We missed it by about 15 years. And the reason we missed it was because he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children. And then he gets out of prison. It's unbelievable. They let him out of prison. They have to serve him 15 years. He goes up to Rochester and he starts killing prostitutes up in Rochester. So we got everything right, missed the age. But we staked out. We told him to stake out. If you find a body, don't recover it right away, but stake it out. And so the cops, they get a lead. There's a body below a bridge, an overpass below a bridge, and in the country, and there's a victim down there and it's frozen over with ice. And they stake it out. And guess what? Police are surveillant. Here comes a guy, just sits on the edge of the bridge, eating, having a drink, and the victim is right below him. And that was Arthur Shawcross, serial killer in Rochester, New York. So it's. I like the idea of developing, you know, using imagination and creativity to catch these guys and kind of de emphasize, like I said, de emphasize the profile. Sometimes you can Be right on the money. Some cases you can forget, you can't do it because too many, maybe too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of type of crime. And rape cases, we have surviving victims, we could be pretty good once, if we do the right kind of interview or we coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was, what the sexual assault was and what the physical assault was. Verbal, sexual, physical. And what was it like throughout the first encounter with the victim during this sexual assault and afterwards, verbal, sexual, physical. And if we have that information, we do a good interview. That kind of case we can do a very good profile and come up with. Because we have a rape type, we have like five or six rape typologies based upon, if we have that kind of information, where we can determine pretty good who the offender is.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (22:24)

In a similar fashion in regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa, this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard in the attempted murder of, of Brian Hartnell. During the course of tying up the victims, the Zodiac killer, wearing a black executioner's type hood with clip on sunglasses over the eye holes disguise, he claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge, Montana, where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway. Now he's telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and, and money to drive and escape to Mexico. You had said you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out, to present himself to law enforcement and come forward. What would have been your strategy to do so?

John Douglas (23:20)

It would have just been to, you know, to release. I just believe in working with the media, investigative reporters with the media releasing information and not sitting on, you can sit on information for a period of a couple of, you know, maybe a couple of days or so. But at some point you have to release the, you know, release the information. Now, whether or not that information was true or not, you know, we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have, you know, have known that. Again, I'd have to. It's been so long since I even looked at that, you know, that case. But let me tell you something else similar. What he did, his technique, he was trying to diffuse the situation. He was trying to calm the victims down. Don't worry. All I want is your vehicle. Same thing. I interviewed Dennis Rader, the BTK strangler, in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and never, the analysis never led to his arrest. His stupidity led to his arrest. But he used that same technique with the Otero family when he killed the Oteros and the children, the mother and father, that. Please, all I want, you know, I just want your car, you know, and your money. I'm not going to do anything to you. And so they allowed. It was a very good modus operandi. It allowed him to diffuse the situation and gain control of them and. And tie them up. Going back to the Zodiac. It kind of shows you, though, it's pretty sophisticated. It's a pretty good M.O. you know, to use and almost sounds like it's been so long. It almost sounds like a law enforcement technique. Dennis Rader was the pseudo law enforcement. You know, he was a compliance officer in town. He was studying criminal justice at Wichita State. So a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement backgrounds. Looking at the Golden Gate Killer, you know, out there. But even others. Who. Or you ask them, what would be your favorite profession? Generally, it's law enforcement is what they pick. And some of them even actually work as security guards, so. But sometimes it's disturbing to see how I can't think of the name. You probably know this, Nick. The case in Indiana are the two little girls that were on that bridge.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (25:58)

Yes. The murders of Abigail Williams in Liberty. German from Delphi, Indiana.

John Douglas (26:03)

I did a brief interview on. I think it was Good Morning America. I think I had that other book out, Killer Cross, and they threw out that case. And they never. I mean, you can sit on that information, but when they sit on. Had the audio tapes. The audio tapes. And, you know, it was like, I think if I recall, something like, come with me, Follow me, or something like come with me.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (26:28)

Yes. The perpetrator said, guys down the hill.

John Douglas (26:31)

Yeah. And it sounded authoritarian, man. I mean, and they sat on that. God, wasn't it like two years or so? It was ridiculous. You don't sit on something like, you know, like that for that period of time. That case, to me was a solvable kind of case. That is not a. It's not a case where some stranger comes roaming into a community and just by the fluke, you know, and this. I think it was like a winter day. He comes across this railroad trestle and he confronts these girls. It's like he has this knowledge of. Knowledge of the area that's his comfort zone, that area there, whatever that area is. Like, I don't. I just don't know. I know it was just rural. I don't know. We don't know how they were killed. If you knew how they were killed, even, like I said, you can sit on it for a while. But, or, but I think it would have been very soluble if I were to know, like were they sexually assaulted? Yes or no? Were they both sexually assaulted? Were they redressed? Were they unclothed? Did he pose the bodies? Did he try to secrete the bodies, hide the bodies from open view? Are they missing anything? Any jewelry, any clothing or anything like that? Method of death, can we determine who was killed first? It's really a solvable case, but not a year later, two years later. I mean, unless they luck out and get DNA. But it's upsets me sometimes when I see why didn't they release this information. I mean, I did the same thing with the bureau too. Their own cases, you got to sit on them for a while. But bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the public.

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Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (30:41)

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John Douglas (30:42)

There's always something new.

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John Douglas (31:09)

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John Douglas (31:18)

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Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (31:45)

Mr. Douglas, you referenced BTK Dennis Raider, and I was talking about the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa. Do you think that there's a high probability, a good chance, that Dennis Raider learned that technique by reading about the Zodiac killer?

John Douglas (32:02)

Yes. Yeah, because like I said, he was in. He was in criminal justice. In fact, the initial analysis we did and was. We did one in 79, and we were just getting going, really. But then we did a really good one in 84 with a group of us, and we wanted to focus. We told the. Focus that over if you have a criminal justice university nearby. And sure enough, it was Wichita. In retrospect, he went to Wichita. I mean, they will. They follow. They'll read books and things like that. People will always ask Nick, too, a question like, well, can they learn from your books? I mean, it becomes like a manual, and not really, because you should be able to read. You can see when things are done that the patterns just don't always fit there. That the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself. It may be the way the body is disposed of, say a parent killing their child. And maybe read a book to. Okay, make sure you don't let somebody else find the victim. Don't be the one to find the victim. Read some case like that. But in a case like that, when we find, say, when we found the victim, we see that things were done to the victim, that the victim was buried. I'm thinking of a case as I'm telling you. This is buried in the back of a house, and there's plastic bag over the face and part of the body to protect it from, really from the elements, protect it from insects and dirt. It's something that someone close to the victim would have done. So we're not looking for a stranger, a stranger murder. So you should be able to. You should Be able to pick up if someone is following a case. We had a case of a. This was years ago. It was Roy Hazelwood, who since passed away. He was real good. He did a lot in the area of rape. And a woman would get these obscene calls, and she got a whistle, and she blew the whistle into the phone, and she would be murdered, and a whistle would be found, you know, be thrown on her body. Also, a magazine, a magazine that this guy just so happened to have the killer had of a woman using that technique on an obscene telephone call. And these were these old true detective magazines we used to have years ago. So he got back, you know, he got back to her in an indirect. Indirect. A very direct way from a magazine and retaliated. But we ended up, you know, getting. Getting him as. You know, as well, that guy you.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (35:09)

Referenced, that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended. One thing that I found fascinating when reviewing some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with Mark Byers, who at one time was considered a suspected leased in the minds of the public in the West Memphis Three case. And I noticed in that video footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment, that there were several of your books on his shelves or his desk. Desk. Can you tell us why you believe that Mark Byers is not a good suspect in the West Memphis Three case?

John Douglas (35:55)

He had a book that I gave him a book after I determined he was not a suspect, you know, in the. You know, in the case. Mark Byers? Yeah. He recently. Recently died when he made that series of shows. What was the name of the first one? The first one?

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (36:13)

The HBO documentary Paradise Lost. The Child murders at Robin Hood Hills.

John Douglas (36:19)

He was plied with alcohol and prescription drugs. He was scripted, you know, throughout that the person who killed those children and the method and manner of disposal told me it was not Mark Byers. He did not have a history, really any kind of. A major kind of history of assault or type of behavior. It was the other stepfather who was never interviewed by the police. Throughout the years, that 50 analysis that I did for the team that was working the case, the children, it showed me and my goal. Was it a teenager, at least three teenagers involved? No. The way that children were disposed, though the children did have their clothes on, which would be a way of controlling the kids if they're stripped down, or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with. When someone approached Them, but the way they were disposed of and the person stuck a stick in the clothing and poked it down under the water, that is pretty fairly criminally, you know, sophisticated. The children died of combination of drowning and blunt force trauma. There were people early on in the investigation said there were teeth marks, there were human teeth marks on the body. It turned out it was animal predation. You know, you probably know that, you know now, but getting back to Byers, I spent hours and hours, I mean, I spent with all the victims. And my goal after I determined who was, who was not responsible, that this is a non solved case. They, meaning the investigative team, Peter Jackson, the director who was funding these experts here was to talk to the parents. And I got to talk to all the parents except the Moore victim. They had since divorced. And I got the mother on the phone and just could not even have an opportunity to speak with her. I did get to speak to the other victims, the other victims families. And at first they wanted to throw me out of their homes. But once I sat and explained to them how different things, what happened to their children, that this was not a youthful type of crime at all. And it was then again, the person who they came up with as a suspect, who was the other father, the stepfather who was never interviewed. Do you remember the name Nick?

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (39:15)

Terry Hobbs.

John Douglas (39:17)

Yeah, Terry Hobbs. I got to interview. I did interview him. He did certainly have the history of violence. They found hair which was interesting, but it was human hair on one of the. In a ligature of the shoelaces that was used to tie one of the victims and whose mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch hair that was mitochondrial linked to, you know, linked back to him. But the case, the case isn't going anywhere because the. If they're not, if they're not working the investigation at all, they had me speak to the district attorney down there. And after we came out with our show Peter Jackson produced and it was called west of Memphis and the Father. I'm trying to think about. I'm trying to think of the. That's the name of the show that we did. But anyway, they had me talk to the. Yeah, I can't. But it doesn't matter. But I spoke, I did speak to the district attorney and the district attorney, he saw the show. He's kind of miffed about our take on it. And he says, and he said, I don't. He told me, I don't know. I don't know if they did it or not. And I said, I do know. They didn't do it. They didn't do it. And I explained to him the crime scene and the type of person that would have perpetrated this, these crimes. It's not a useful type of an offender. And he tells me, though, he says, well, the timing isn't very good. The timing. And I didn't know what he meant. I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison, but it turned out 30 days later I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there. And that's why the timing wasn't any good. But no one to this day, I mean, they didn't bring in like the Arkansas State Police in. They're a very good police agency. The bureau really never got involved in the investigation either. They were hell bent on making this a satanic type of murder. That was a big thing in that period of time. You had people like Geraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly and it's showing a satanic connection. Even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show. Cops were being trained, look for certain graffiti indicating Satanism. And yeah, and so they were hell bent on making that a satanic crime. And you have Damien Echols and wearing black and they had blinders on. And so they made a case using initially Jesse Misskelley, the so called confession that he, you know, that he gave. But it's a shame. It was a shame of the wrongful conviction, how their lives were pretty much, pretty much destroyed. And so one book I did, I did a book, Law and Disorder that includes that case, includes the JonBenet Ramsey case, includes the Amanda Knox case, all cases I was involved with. I did that a couple of two years, three years ago maybe.

Co-host (The Captain) (42:59)

Thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage. Join us again tomorrow if you're not following us on Instagram, Twitter or Facebook. Or you could follow the kernel, the crispiest of kernels on the app called Untapped so you can see what drinks the colonel has been drinking.

Nick (Host of True Crime Garage) (43:19)

That's right. Join us back here in the garage tomorrow. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

Nordstrom Rack Advertiser (44:01)

Are you ready to get spicy?

John Douglas (44:03)

These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.

Nordstrom Rack Advertiser (44:06)

Maybe it's time to turn up the.

John Douglas (44:08)

Heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha Spicy but not too spicy.