John Douglas (7:57)
Yeah, I was in, I happened to be in Utah at the time, speaking at a university when I got a call from an investigator who's working on a defense team. I didn't know who he was and asked me that if I would like to participate in, in the investigation. And I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in the unit. I accepted it and I said this family is guilty. In the back of my mind I'm thinking that they're guilty because what I was reading in the paper is what was being presented on television. So I go over and I meet the attorneys in Denver in an old mansion they have as an office and inside of what would be the living room is an enclosed encasement of a, like a fiberglass room within the room and go in there. So I'm thinking in the back of my mind what are these guys going to do? They're going to like offer me money or something. They're going to pay me. I'm going to give them a rash of crap, man. Walk right out on them. But I got in there and I sat down and they said, John, we don't know. We really don't know. We don't know just by. He said, we don't think they did it, but we'd like you to take a look at what we have. Can we present to you what we have? And I said yeah. He says, but you know, and they are going to pay me. They're going to pay me. But the pay people think I became a millionaire fifteen hundred dollars. I spent a lot of time I Testified out there and everything. Because once I realized I was not working for. I was working for victims, wasn't working for offenders. I was working for victims of a violent crime who had been. Who are now in the process of being re. Victimized by being accused of killing a child. But once I saw how she was murdered and the things that was done to her, that wasn't all made public. And parents kill, believe me, we have had plenty of cases. Parents kill, but not like this. Not like this. Not like in this. With this family. This type of family, you know, either. They don't kill like this. So I did the analysis. I met with the family, and first thing I did, I went to the house and kind of reenacted, reconstructed things to see where they were. Their bedroom was. Their bedroom was up, like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom. And the children on the next floor down. And you can't hear anything with the air conditioning, heating units going. You really can't hear anything if anyone was down below you there. But I looked at. When I look at a case like that, okay, you're looking at. Then I'm looking at pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, what's going on in their lives. And I didn't see anything in pre defense behavior that was out of the ordinary or unusual. It's Christmas time. They're going to Charlevoix, Michigan for the holidays. And I think they're going to work their way down to Disney World. And I don't see anything there. Now we perpetrate the crime. Okay, the crime has been perpetrated. Let's take a look at that. And then I saw where the investigators asked John and a neighbor, Fleetwood, to take a look around, see if anything's out of the ordinary. Take a look downstairs in this basement. So they go down there usually when a parent kills. What we found over the years that the parent who did the killing, it won't be the one to find the body. He'll get somebody else. The person with them or if it's searching in the yard or something, or a search party, they are not going to be the one to find the child in this situation here. Fleetwood, John goes into this room, checks it's a wine cellar, but there's no wine. They don't even drink. And there he finds his daughter. Oh, my God, my baby. He shouts out. And she has tape over her mouth. Her hands are over her head tied together. He doesn't know it yet, but she is garrotted. And he then picks her up, carries her upstairs lays her down in the. Eventually in the. I guess it's in the living room. Bunch of people are up there, everything's contaminated. And they're trying to bring her back to life. Rubbing her body. That's in rigor. And there's a little bruise on her forehead. So she has a bruise on her forehead. She has been garrotted. They can't even see the garage. She's been garrotted. And a piece of the paintbrush is used as a handle to garrotte. Or with a rope, this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramses had. And they didn't find any other pieces of it. They find wood fibers from the same paintbrush in their vaginal area. Been penetrated with. Believe now with that stick. That's how that. That got there. When they start the autopsy and they remove the skull or the skin on the skull, surprisingly, they find that the skull has been cracked open like a coconut. Like eight, eight and a half inches in length. But why is there just a little red, slight red mark on her forehead? And my gosh, to break his skull, you'd think there'd be some kind of edema. There'd be swelling and blood and. Well, why is. Because she was dead or on her last breath when the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough with the death itself. So he does her in. It wasn't necessary for the. To kill. She's already dead from the garrote. And so. And then the letter, the other thing. The letter. Right, the famous. The two and a half page letter. And the FBI was against me. Police hated me around the country and you know, never saw a two and a half page letter. And you know, that's right. They're right about that. However, when would the letter have been written is the question. You mean to tell me that after the Rams. Tell me the Ramses have been murdered. Now you're going to write a two and a half page letter, this threatening letter asking for money. And the money coincides roughly to what a bonus that John Ramsey has. But you're going to be pulling in into this letter different verses that are coming right out of movies. Out of movies like ransom. And you're going to have the presence of mind to, you know, to do something like that after. After the crime. No, you're not. You're not going to have that kind of presence of mind. So I just saw so many different things. And you know, the Bureau, if they were angry, you know, like I may be, you know, like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public. We know you're out there. We know there's going to be more than one of you. I knew that he was coached by. Without anyone telling me. I mean I invented the stuff that, that he was being told by the agents of what to say. But I'm not telling, I'm not telling the defense what they're doing here, you know, what their tactics are. I'm not doing it. I would have loved to have been, you know, been able to solve that case if it was them. Just come up and get a confession out of them. But that was not, that was, you know, not the case. And as a broken man. I've met John several times and a broken man. Patsy Ramsey's stage. She was in remissions. Cancer return. She died. Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration. There was no dying declaration. She didn't kill her daughter. John is since remarried. CBS comes out with a TV show with the so called FBI. Some former agents, experts and forensic experts. And they come up with this theory, more than a theory, but an accusation that Burke Ramsey is responsible for the death. I mean I was watching that and think, holy mackerel, you can't say something like that. I mean here Burke is, I'm not going to say where he lives, but come across him over the years. I mean he did not hit his sister accidentally or whatever on purpose. In fact, if the parents knew that, they never would have allowed him to talk to the police alone without even the parents, the parents in the presence of Burke. So that's another one of these cases where you know what they did, Nick, is they. And you see this sometimes on cases, they let a theory drive an investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some evidence that doesn't fit the theory out. You know, so they let that theory, you know, drive it. Not being driven by evidence of any kind or forensic or evidence whenever eyewitness testimony, the letting a theory. And you know why? Because two, because you had, you didn't have a homicide investigator work in that case. You had a drug investigator working a narcotics officer work in that case. And because they have so few cases, they rotate them out there in Boulder. And so the mindset of a narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer. A narcotics officer knows, comes, knows you're dealing, knows it's you. I know it's you. I'm going to make a case on you. I'm going to make, you know, on you. I'm going to build a case all around you informants, whatever we're going to get you. Well, you get that mindset in the homicide case. I know you did it. I know the certain behavior. Patsy, when they brought the child up, Patsy was there. Her fingers were splayed across her face, peeking through her eyes and all that other nonsense stuff. No, you let a theory drive your investigation. You're into a narcotics investigation mindset, not a homicide investigators. And that's why. Who's the investigator from Colorado Springs? Lou Smith.
