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True Crime Garage
Mind Hunter ///John Douglas /// Part 2
00:36:37
This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey. Beer of the Week - Shady Spot by Susquehanna Brewing Company Garage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5
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- [00:00]
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick and I say turkey for the girls and turkey for the boys. And here's a guy whose favorite kind of pants are corduroys. Here's the captain.
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Co-host (True Crime Garage)
I really did like corduroy pants in high school. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
You know what would be great with Thanksgiving dinner? A little shot of whiskey with a refreshing lemon shandy chaser. That's right baby. Today we are still sipping on Shady Spot by our good friends over at Susquehanna Brewing Company ABV 4.5% garage grade. Four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And let's start off with a big huge thank you to Porsche and parts unknown.
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Co-host (True Crime Garage)
A big cheers to Amela and Boise, Idaho.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Next we have a nice contribution to this week's beer fund from Frank and Estelle. Cat Stanza from Del Boca Vista Retirement community in Los Angeles.
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Co-host (True Crime Garage)
Cat Stanza can't stand you. And a big shout to Allison and Ledgewood, New Jersey.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
And here's a double cheers to Jen and M at Center Caps Direct. They are out in Naca Nowhere, which I believe is just one county over from parts unknown. So cheers to Jen and mj. And cheers to everyone who contributed to this week's Garage fridge fill up beer run.
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Co-host (True Crime Garage)
Thank you guys so much for supporting the show this year. Big things happening. As this is our last show, big things are happening because we're were Quitting? No, just joking. Big things happening in 2021, and I hope 2000, and I hope everybody made it through 2020. And that is enough of the business.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
All right, everybody, gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. We are continuing our discussion with John Douglas. Retired FBI Special Agent John Douglas. You know him from the Behavioral Science Unit. You may know him from the wonderful show Mindhunter. Picking up where we left off, we were discussing one of my favorite books, Law and Disorder, and in particular the West Memphis Three case. Mr. Douglas, when you met Mark Byers, there was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with Terry Hobbs. At first, Mark Byers was off put and not very welcoming to your conversation, but he very quickly warmed up to you and then became very much an open book, whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and interested in talking to you. However, as the conversation went along, he became aggressive and became dodgy to your questions.
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John Douglas
He wanted. Yeah, he. Very much so. He. Word got out that, you know, that, that he wanted to have somebody get rid of me and contract, have me killed. But Byers, you're exactly right. When I sat on that porch of his, hot as heck down there sweating, and he got angry as hell and his wife was there and initially I started talking. I was on the porch like an hour or so. Then finally I was invited into the house and I spent hours on hours, you know, with him and just assessing him. And I mean, I mean, he's not the most stable person at that certainly, but he didn't kill, he didn't kill his child. A different feel too, that I had when I spoke, when I spoke to Terry and initially spoke with him at a shopping center, trying to gain his trust. And then when I started to gain information on him and he got really pissed off at me when we were able to track down years earlier how he broke into a house, a neighbor's house, and she was taking a shower and he tried to molest her, tried to molest this woman. He thought that record was purged and it wasn't available. And so he had that. He also shot his brother, his brother in law. And he was also extremely violent to his, to his children, his son and his young son and daughter, and to his, you know, to his, his wife. His. His wife is a believer that, that he is responsible for that crime. But no one's going to really, you know, you know, do it. No one's really working it. As far as they're concerned, it's solved. They don't have to pay, they don't have to pay any money to, you know, to Damon Echol and Jesse and Jason Baldwin, any state money because they had the pled. The Alford plea. And so to this day they're sex offenders, these three. I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse Ms. Kelly about a year and a half ago up in New York and you could see we just, they took a chunk out of their lives. It's like they're, it's like they're behind developmentally, emotionally because of the time that they spent a period of time in their lives in prison, particularly Damien. And it was the same too with Amanda. It's the same. Same thing.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Speaking of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that may be considered suspects and you were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six year old JonBenet Ramsey. For those who are yet to read the cases that haunt us, can you explain how you became involved in the case?
- [07:58]
John Douglas
Yeah, I was in, I happened to be in Utah at the time, speaking at a university when I got a call from an investigator who's working on a defense team. I didn't know who he was and asked me that if I would like to participate in, in the investigation. And I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in the unit. I accepted it and I said this family is guilty. In the back of my mind I'm thinking that they're guilty because what I was reading in the paper is what was being presented on television. So I go over and I meet the attorneys in Denver in an old mansion they have as an office and inside of what would be the living room is an enclosed encasement of a, like a fiberglass room within the room and go in there. So I'm thinking in the back of my mind what are these guys going to do? They're going to like offer me money or something. They're going to pay me. I'm going to give them a rash of crap, man. Walk right out on them. But I got in there and I sat down and they said, John, we don't know. We really don't know. We don't know just by. He said, we don't think they did it, but we'd like you to take a look at what we have. Can we present to you what we have? And I said yeah. He says, but you know, and they are going to pay me. They're going to pay me. But the pay people think I became a millionaire fifteen hundred dollars. I spent a lot of time I Testified out there and everything. Because once I realized I was not working for. I was working for victims, wasn't working for offenders. I was working for victims of a violent crime who had been. Who are now in the process of being re. Victimized by being accused of killing a child. But once I saw how she was murdered and the things that was done to her, that wasn't all made public. And parents kill, believe me, we have had plenty of cases. Parents kill, but not like this. Not like this. Not like in this. With this family. This type of family, you know, either. They don't kill like this. So I did the analysis. I met with the family, and first thing I did, I went to the house and kind of reenacted, reconstructed things to see where they were. Their bedroom was. Their bedroom was up, like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom. And the children on the next floor down. And you can't hear anything with the air conditioning, heating units going. You really can't hear anything if anyone was down below you there. But I looked at. When I look at a case like that, okay, you're looking at. Then I'm looking at pre offense behavior, post offense behavior, what's going on in their lives. And I didn't see anything in pre defense behavior that was out of the ordinary or unusual. It's Christmas time. They're going to Charlevoix, Michigan for the holidays. And I think they're going to work their way down to Disney World. And I don't see anything there. Now we perpetrate the crime. Okay, the crime has been perpetrated. Let's take a look at that. And then I saw where the investigators asked John and a neighbor, Fleetwood, to take a look around, see if anything's out of the ordinary. Take a look downstairs in this basement. So they go down there usually when a parent kills. What we found over the years that the parent who did the killing, it won't be the one to find the body. He'll get somebody else. The person with them or if it's searching in the yard or something, or a search party, they are not going to be the one to find the child in this situation here. Fleetwood, John goes into this room, checks it's a wine cellar, but there's no wine. They don't even drink. And there he finds his daughter. Oh, my God, my baby. He shouts out. And she has tape over her mouth. Her hands are over her head tied together. He doesn't know it yet, but she is garrotted. And he then picks her up, carries her upstairs lays her down in the. Eventually in the. I guess it's in the living room. Bunch of people are up there, everything's contaminated. And they're trying to bring her back to life. Rubbing her body. That's in rigor. And there's a little bruise on her forehead. So she has a bruise on her forehead. She has been garrotted. They can't even see the garage. She's been garrotted. And a piece of the paintbrush is used as a handle to garrotte. Or with a rope, this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramses had. And they didn't find any other pieces of it. They find wood fibers from the same paintbrush in their vaginal area. Been penetrated with. Believe now with that stick. That's how that. That got there. When they start the autopsy and they remove the skull or the skin on the skull, surprisingly, they find that the skull has been cracked open like a coconut. Like eight, eight and a half inches in length. But why is there just a little red, slight red mark on her forehead? And my gosh, to break his skull, you'd think there'd be some kind of edema. There'd be swelling and blood and. Well, why is. Because she was dead or on her last breath when the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough with the death itself. So he does her in. It wasn't necessary for the. To kill. She's already dead from the garrote. And so. And then the letter, the other thing. The letter. Right, the famous. The two and a half page letter. And the FBI was against me. Police hated me around the country and you know, never saw a two and a half page letter. And you know, that's right. They're right about that. However, when would the letter have been written is the question. You mean to tell me that after the Rams. Tell me the Ramses have been murdered. Now you're going to write a two and a half page letter, this threatening letter asking for money. And the money coincides roughly to what a bonus that John Ramsey has. But you're going to be pulling in into this letter different verses that are coming right out of movies. Out of movies like ransom. And you're going to have the presence of mind to, you know, to do something like that after. After the crime. No, you're not. You're not going to have that kind of presence of mind. So I just saw so many different things. And you know, the Bureau, if they were angry, you know, like I may be, you know, like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public. We know you're out there. We know there's going to be more than one of you. I knew that he was coached by. Without anyone telling me. I mean I invented the stuff that, that he was being told by the agents of what to say. But I'm not telling, I'm not telling the defense what they're doing here, you know, what their tactics are. I'm not doing it. I would have loved to have been, you know, been able to solve that case if it was them. Just come up and get a confession out of them. But that was not, that was, you know, not the case. And as a broken man. I've met John several times and a broken man. Patsy Ramsey's stage. She was in remissions. Cancer return. She died. Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration. There was no dying declaration. She didn't kill her daughter. John is since remarried. CBS comes out with a TV show with the so called FBI. Some former agents, experts and forensic experts. And they come up with this theory, more than a theory, but an accusation that Burke Ramsey is responsible for the death. I mean I was watching that and think, holy mackerel, you can't say something like that. I mean here Burke is, I'm not going to say where he lives, but come across him over the years. I mean he did not hit his sister accidentally or whatever on purpose. In fact, if the parents knew that, they never would have allowed him to talk to the police alone without even the parents, the parents in the presence of Burke. So that's another one of these cases where you know what they did, Nick, is they. And you see this sometimes on cases, they let a theory drive an investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some evidence that doesn't fit the theory out. You know, so they let that theory, you know, drive it. Not being driven by evidence of any kind or forensic or evidence whenever eyewitness testimony, the letting a theory. And you know why? Because two, because you had, you didn't have a homicide investigator work in that case. You had a drug investigator working a narcotics officer work in that case. And because they have so few cases, they rotate them out there in Boulder. And so the mindset of a narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer. A narcotics officer knows, comes, knows you're dealing, knows it's you. I know it's you. I'm going to make a case on you. I'm going to make, you know, on you. I'm going to build a case all around you informants, whatever we're going to get you. Well, you get that mindset in the homicide case. I know you did it. I know the certain behavior. Patsy, when they brought the child up, Patsy was there. Her fingers were splayed across her face, peeking through her eyes and all that other nonsense stuff. No, you let a theory drive your investigation. You're into a narcotics investigation mindset, not a homicide investigators. And that's why. Who's the investigator from Colorado Springs? Lou Smith.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. As soon as you are brought in to take a look at the case, and as soon as the famous homicide detective, the late, great Lou Smith, is brought in to take a look at the case, the two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions. It's the famous Lou Smith intruder theory.
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John Douglas
When I testified for the grand jury and then he testified, I guess before I did a different day and I testified afterwards, they said that Lou Smith wanted to speak with me over in Colorado Springs. Great guy. Really great guy. And so they drove me over there and I knock on his door and he comes to the door and he said, introduce ourselves. He said, john, I said, I don't know. I don't know how you did. Took me 10 months. 10 months. You came up with this in four days, four or five days, wherever it was. And he said, and you didn't see everything. And I've got everything, I got everything here. I'd like to go through the case of PowerPoint presentation and with you. I said, that'd be great. So I went down in his basement. He went through the whole case and then seeing even everything but things I didn't see. I just in certain cases had to make assumptions. Everything just fit. And then they were coming out that, you know, that Lou and myself, that the family was religious, that we were being pulled into the Ramses because of our fate, because of faith. And now we've both of us have been investigators of all types. We'll arrest religious people, we don't care. But if we don't like wrongful convictions and destroying the lives of people, I mean, it's terrible to lose your child, but now to be accused of killing your child. And that's when you get into Nick, like social media where it can be dangerous. A lot of social media could be good where you can develop help and actually can help law enforcement with leads, people, discussion. And there's been some websites that have been very, very successful. But then you get others, you know, which can totally jeopardize investigation. And shape the attitude of people. I remember right after that too. I'm on a train going up to New York and there's a guy in front of me. And this is after I did an analysis. I'm back and on the night of the crime, it was like the head. On the night of the crime, Patsy was without with her lover. And I'm thinking, what the hell? So when I get to New York, I call, I said, was Patsy having an affair with some guy? He's not telling me what are you talking about? And I said, this guy, it's one of these rag tabloid things. I saw this on a trend. No, that's garbage is garbage. But you can see how people see that, that kind of crap, you know, and start believing, you know, start believing in it. And you can't, you can't sway their opinion at.
- [22:32]
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
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John Douglas
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- [27:38]
Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Do you think we will ever know who killed JonBenet?
- [27:41]
John Douglas
I hope so. I mean, I don't know. You hear different things of a. Yeah, if they brought in, they've had some good suspect. They had one good suspect there. They had several. I mean, the place was full of sex offenders all around the areas where Patsy and John were living there. But then there was one guy who committed suicide. He had access to a stun gun. See the police discount that. Ms. Lou Smit went over the stun gun and showed me. They did tests with a medical doctor on pigs using a stun gun showing the marks of similarities here. I mean, hopefully, you know, DNA, familial DNA or something will, you know, will solve that case one day. But I don't know if they're working and I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney general come in, we're going to take a new look at the case. Or the prosecutor wants to take a look at the case. But, you know, hopefully, I mean, it can look at the Golden State case. I mean, after all these years. I mean, we worked that case. I just. I worked when it was the east area rapist, the rapes that he was doing. And we didn't. It wasn't responsible. It was just DNA. DNA got him, which was after so many years, a police officer was responsible.
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Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
We're all very excited for the release of your new book, the killer's the FBI's hunt for a White supremacist serial killer. Can you tell us a little bit about your latest book?
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John Douglas
This is a different kind of serial killer. And it was a case that the first case that the bureau would give me only because they've of a supervisor on the Civil Rights division squad up at headquarters. We knew each other from Milwaukee division. We're on the same SWAT team together. And he knew I was doing this research on serial murders and going to prisons. And he calls me to see if I could be of help. So this would be different, Nick. This would not be a profile so much as it would be an assessment. So you got to kind of do your old show years ago, it was called this is your life, you know, and they would do this background of total background of a guy so I would go up to headquarters and there was a lot of pressure because if I screw this thing up, I'm just starting to get going here. And now that everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this research, they just don't understand what the purpose of it is. Even though we're helping local police on the later international police departments here. So the assessment is that the latest thing with Franklin is that he's linked to over 20 homicides. He traveled. He's a prolific bank robber, Unlike serial killers, have a particular comfort zone for the crimes. This guy is all over the place. He's all over the map. He's a bomber. Some of his cases are bombing. He is a bank robber. Prolific bank robber. He is a. Turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle. In fact, he actually shot with only one eye because when he, as a youth, he lost the sight of eyes in his right eye in an accident. People think it's said it was a bicycle. No, it wasn't a bicycle accident. It was a shade, an old window shade with a spring inside. And he was playing with his brother. The spring came out, popped him right in the eye. Mother took him to the hospital. A mother who was extremely abusive to him. A father extremely. Again, very, very abusive to him and his brothers and sisters. Mother takes him to the hospital. The doctor says can't do anything right now. It's temporary, but bring him back in a couple of months. We'll do some surgery and we'll make his eye good as new. She doesn't do that. She doesn't take him back as a young child to the hospital. He ends up losing his sight. And he then. What a way to overcompensate. The loss of his sight is to be an excellent shot. He wanted to be a police officer too. Another one, you said, oh, another guy wants to be an officer. And when he heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of one eye, he extremely angry and bitter again towards his, you know, towards his mother. Hated, hated his mother and his father. That's why he would change his name to Joseph. His name was James Vaughan. He would change his name to Joseph Paul Franklin. And then he then gravitated to these kkk, different, these radical hate groups. American Nazi party, passing out literature. Today he would have a field day with the Internet access. But then what he realized was because he was paranoid that these organizations were pretty much infiltrated by FBI, by FBI informants. And they were keeping good tabs. On him, on these organizations back then. And they were primarily, you know, talking the talk but not walking the walk. And he got became frustrated and decided to go out on his own. And the so called birth of the lone wolf. Lone wolf criminal. And it just started by tailing interracial couples. First one was up in Maryland. He maced them, but then that was after macing them. That was the last time he used mace. From then on in, he would start using various firearms. He shot Larry Flint of Flint Hustler magazine. He shot, he shot him. He shot Vernon Jordan, civil rights leader. You know, at the time he wrote a threatening letter to Jimmy Carter. Secret Service was, when he wasn't identified yet, was trying to figure out, you know, who'd done it. So what I said was with him, the long and short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the country and that would be now. Now that he's a fugitive, he's a top 10. Yeah, he committed these crimes all around these other areas. But he's going to, he's going to be a homing pigeon now. He's going back to Mobile. It's going back to Mobile and to Florida. He may not be robbing banks because we'll have a lot of these banks be notified, staked out. But the teletype then it was teletypes, was an Internet teletype goes out, he's spotted in Mobile, Alabama. The agent in charge of the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings alone. Do I think this guy is going to be robbing? I said what? I said what? I can't, I don't know. You didn't even know what city he was in. I told you what city he's in. So he was there temporarily. They spotted him, surveillance camera and blood bank. And then they passed out flyers on him through all these different blood banks in the deep south, out in Florida. And that's where he would be spotted in a blood bank. So got him there. I coached the agent on the interview a little bit, but then I got to interview him later on in the late 80s, 90s, 90ish, with a secret Service agent. You would have thought, Nick, that Secret Service would have had a behavioral science unit over the years. They did not have a unit like we had. They had not done research like we were doing with violent crimes at all. And so I did a couple of cases for Secret Service over the years that turned out pretty good. And so then they sent down a guy. Great. A Great guy who's passed away. Ken Baker, Secret Service. And we conducted some research on assassin interviewed like Squeaky Fromm, who shot Ford, Sarah Jane Moore, who shot Ford, Arthur Bremer, who shot George Wallace, James Earl ray, who shot Dr. Martin Luther Luther King and other assassination style of killings. And that's why we interviewed Franklin, because he had that assassination style of killing. And the problem is that, and we come up with this killer's shadow is that to this day he still cast a shadow, a long shadow, because there are others like him out there. Now he's been executed 2013. But there are others who law enforcement come across now and then who are emulating people, you know, like him who are being influenced today. Not so much like the old days where it would be in some hall room or meeting or someone's basement. Now it's on the Internet where you can have, you could have. There's hundreds and hundreds of sites, these racist sites, anti Semitic sites where someone can gravitate to that. And not everyone will go out and perpetrate acts of violence, but someone may. And someone will see that and take action like a, you know, like this Joseph Paul Franklin, you know, character. And so it's much. It's difficult today to investigate. I mean, the old days you had an organization. Now you have someone who could be influencing others, but it's not, they're not tied into. There's no hierarchy. There's no leader and soldiers, you know, none of that. Lieutenants like an organized crime even you don't have, you don't have anything like that. So it makes it extremely difficult for law enforcement. And law enforcement resources are very skimpy. Particularly after 9, 11, the emphasis was on international terrorism. A little bit de. Emphasis on. Because of resources on domestic terrorism. So it's, it's not over. There'll be others, other cases, unfortunately, you know, hopefully we can. What we can rely on is information from the public. When they see someone who's becoming obsessed with hatred and anti Semitic, anti everything or African Americans and it's becoming obsessed with weapons and other, maybe weapons of destruction. Law enforcement can't be everywhere at every time. So they rely on public information from anonymous sources. That's what they need to follow up the leads to see if this person, you know, if they can, Will carry out a, you know, a violent act. It's kind of like a school shooter. You have certain indicators, but you can't always predict for 100%. You can intercede and take some action. Family or. Yeah. And give this person counseling or whatever. But it's very, very difficult, very, very difficult for law enforcement. So they're going to. That's what they'll see in this book. They'll see the evolution of him and kind of like the Sonny Buno and Cher. The beat goes on and the beat goes on. There'll be more, unfortunately, there'll be more probably cases like this in the future.
- [39:51]
Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Mr. Douglas, thank you again for your time today and for doing the interview. You've been more than generous with us here in the garage.
- [39:58]
John Douglas
Thanks for having me again. And we're working on another one for next year. Next year we'll be doing one they want us to do like kind of like an Ann rule thing, like one case. Sometimes it'll be a case that I worked or maybe case to take a look at, you know, a new case, investigate, try to come up with a solution or so have me back.
- [40:20]
Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Yes, sir. As soon as you're done with this next book, we'd love to have you back.
- [40:24]
John Douglas
Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work.
- [40:26]
Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
Thank you, Mr. Douglas, for joining us in the garage.
- [40:40]
Co-host (True Crime Garage)
Thank you so much for joining us here in the garage, letting us be a part of your week, letting us be a part of your holidays. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading this week?
- [40:52]
Nick (True Crime Garage Host)
We have a lot to recommend today. First off, the True Crime Garage, every single episode archive is available for your listening pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your device. That's right, over 440 episodes to listen to for free, including the last time Mr. John Douglas was on the show back in May of 2019 in the John Douglas Mind Hunter, episode number 302. Also, we will be recommending a batch of John Douglas's books. We recommended the Killer's Shadow last week and you heard us reference in our discussion this week some of his other great books, including the Cases that Haunt Us, Law and Disorder, and the Killer across the Table. We will have all of those great titles listed on our recommended page@True CrimeGarage.com here's us wishing all of you and yours a very safe and happy Thanksgiving. Be good, be thankful, and please don't live.
- [42:31]
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