Sam (3:30)

Yeah, BWWAN Beer run. If you'd like to get some true crime garage merchandise and support the show, keep the lights on, keep the AC run in here in the garage. Check out truecrimegarage.com and click on the store page. Colonel, that's enough of the business.

Nick (3:48)

All right, everybody, gather round. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. We left things off at the interrogation in Altoona. Bill Tench has some questions for one of our murder suspects. Holden Ford is recording this questioning. Tench is getting verbally aggressive with Benjamin or Benji. He is or claims to be Beverly Jean's boyfriend. Tench wants to know, why would you do that to Beverly Jean? A fractured jaw, two black eyes, 14 stab wounds. And as we said, the list goes on. Then they interview Benji's brother in law, Frank. He's the one with the police record. Benji breaks and starts to confess. Frank doesn't confess. In the car, Tench and Ford are discussing the case. Tench says, I hate Frank, the brother in law, but it's always the boyfriend. And when you're lost, you play the percentages. Tench passes on a dinner invitation from his wife Nancy to invite Ford to dinner at the Tench house. And Holden Ford's going to accept the offer and bring his girlfriend with him to this dinner. Now, at the dinner, we learned that the Tench's son Brian, who is adopted, is going to be a mysterious and complicated character. Nancy says that they are not allowed to know where he was or who the parents were when they adopted him. And stating that they have no idea what the child experienced. Back in Altoona, Dr. Wendy Carr, with Holden Ford in tow, describes to the district attorney what exactly happened in the Beverly Jean case. The D. A. Ultimately goes easy on Frank, who agrees to testify against Benji. Benji likely getting the death penalty according to the D. A. While Frank, the far more violent offender, gets just five years in prison.

Sam (6:07)

Yeah, they're very upset with his outcome, but I think what they realized is they can do all the research and all the studying they want and they can help law enforcement as much as they can. But at the end of the day, they're not completely in charge of the results.

Nick (6:24)

That's exactly right. Now, in real life, Dr. Ann Burgess is absolutely fantastic at analyzing and understanding post offense behavior. For those that read her book a killer by design, you already know that she is equally as brilliant at predicting post offense behavior, which is extremely critical to any investigation. When predicted correctly, this will always lead to both detection and apprehension of the person or persons responsible. Back at the office, Dr. Carr says we need to focus on methodology and explains the way that each killer kills is unique. She recommends that the boys go to Oregon to talk with convicted serial killer Jerry Brudos, the trophy keeper. And she educates the boys about Jerry's history and his crime. So not just a serial killer, but Jerry Brudos is also a necrophile. In fact, far more serial killers are necrophiles than the general public is even aware of. Brudos is known as the Lust Killer and the Shoe Fetish Slayer who committed the kidnap, rape and murder of four young women between 1968 and 1969 in Salem, Oregon. All of Brudos murders were committed inside either his car or the basement or garage workshop of the two homes in which he resided in during the period of that he committed these murders. And each victim was killed by strangulation. Several victims were photographed before and or after death, and three of his victims underwent post mortem dismemberment. Everything that the character Wendy Carr says about Jerry Brudos we know to be true in real life, including that all of his murders took place after he was married and had two kids. So something that can be applied to the hunt for the BTK killer as well. Not all of these evil bastards are loners. Some of them are in fact family men.

Sam (8:39)

But also he is an ogre, just like our buddy Edmund Kemper.

Nick (8:44)

You know, if this were to play out over five seasons of eight to 10 episodes each, what I, what I can kind of see here, while these are all actually people that, that were interviewed by Douglas and wrestler at one time, I should say, and, or wrestler at one time, you're seeing traits that share traits of Dennis Raider along the way. They're not all of the traits, but some of them. And like here we see with Brudos, all of his murders took place after he was married and had two kids. Bill Tench only smokes two cigarettes during this episode. And it closes out with the song I Don't Like Mondays, a song by Irish new wave band the Boomtown Rats. If you want to be fully entertained for three minutes of 40 seconds, pull up the music video on YouTube. It's, it's an interesting one. The song was a number one single in the UK singles charts for four weeks during the summer of 1979. Longtime listeners of our show off the Record know that this song is about the Cleveland elementary school shooting that took place on January 29, 1979 at Grover Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego. The principal of that school and a custodian were killed. Eight children and a police officer were injured. The shooter was a 16 year old girl, Brenda Spencer, who lived in a house across the street from the school. She was charged as an adult. She pled guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon and was sentenced to life in prison with a chance of parole after 25 years. And as of this taping, she is still in prison. And that's a whole lot of Monday sitting in prison there, honey. Check out friend of the show in Lee Hunt's book about that true crime story titled of course I Don't like Mondays.

Sam (10:49)

Well, not only is he a great writer, but he is also one funny dude.

Nick (10:55)

Yeah, yeah. Yes he is. He. We. We recently traded photos via text. I sent him one of me flipping him the bird, to which he replied, giving me the finger right back. So that's where our friendship stands at this moment.

Sam (11:14)

Hey, better the bird than a meanwhile.

Nick (11:18)

Yeah, if we were in the same room and there were. There were beers available, we would be arm in arm talking through through the afternoon and evening. Episode 7 of Mindhunter opens with once again our ADT serviceman in the scene. He's laying out his clothes and a what appears to be a kill kit on a bed. And I say clothes, but you can see prominently on the bed is a coat, a large winter coat which we will later see him wearing that coat and have some items from that kill kit in his possession. Next, we go to Salem, Oregon to visit the lust killer, Jerry Brudos. Brudos claims that his confessions to those four murders were all coerced and that he is innocent. And just as Dr. Wendy Carr says in the show, he denies even when confronted with evidence, even though he's a.

Sam (12:19)

Ogre like Edmund Kemper. Edmund wants to be a part of the group he admires. Law enforcement, yes, but not the case here.

Nick (12:31)

No, no. Kemper wants to be chummy with the. With police and detectives and almost seems flattered that the FBI would want to visit him and talk with him where Jerry Brudos is like, cool, but what are you guys going to do for me? Like, this better be entertaining or worth my time or you guys can go fly a kite. Tench does not find the visit to be useful at all because again, he's not. He. He is not admitting to the murder. So what details are you going to glean from the conversation when he won't even admit that he did it? Which is the exact Opposite of Kemper, who not only admits what he's done, he can articulate in great detail the what and why and how of his crimes. The flip of this, though, Captain, is that Dr. Carr does find the visit to be useful. Now, we. We should cover Brudos at some time. He shares a lot of similarities to Kemper and Kemper's crimes. And some of his other crimes are very weird, the way that he chose to carry them out and cover them up. The next time we see the Road Feds go back to Salem to visit Brudos again, they will be better prepared. In fact, they bring Brudos a pack of cigarettes, which he requested in the first visit, and to his surprise and enjoyment, they bring him a pair of women's shoes as well, which he jerks off to right in front of the. Yes, right in front of the federal agents and the guard.

Sam (14:11)

Yeah, I mean, some people could say he's the honey badger. He don't give a.

Nick (14:16)

Well, Wendy Carr does not like these tactics, even though they. Even though they got him to open up a little bit. So, you know, that's holding Ford's whole angle with a lot of this stuff, like, I'll do whatever it takes to get these evil guys to talk. Because he believes in the long run, that good will prevail. And the more that they know, the better equipped they will be to take these guys down, apprehend them, and save lives. So the three Dr. Carr and the two agents, ultimately, they just end up disagreeing on how to learn from Brudos. Now we go back to the Tench house once again. This is when the babysitter quits after she tells Nancy and Bill that she found a Polaroid photo of a tortured murder victim under little Brian's bed. This is something that the kids. The child he snuck into Bill Tench's office. Home. Office there. And Tench has been working around the clock. He's bringing cases home with him, bringing case files home with him. And this is something that Brian took from one of those case files.

Sam (15:27)

But this also shows, I think, the behind the scenes of law enforcement.

Nick (15:32)

He.

Sam (15:34)

Bill, has to deal with the sickest individuals on earth. And even though he apologizes for bringing this home, I think there's a part of him that's glad that his wife saw this and saw these things. And when they're in argument, he's throwing the pictures at her, because I think he's trying to show her, do you see the sickness and the evil that I'm dealing with? And you expect Me to be this normal person all the time.

Nick (16:02)

Well, and he's fed up that she keeps pointing out to him that, you never talk to me about your work. You never tell me what you're doing. You never tell me about the cases that you're working. And that's where he's like, oh, you. You really want to see what I'm. What I have to work on, what I'm forced to work on? And that's also a pretty aggressive way of exploiting, proving to her that, hey, maybe lay off the. I never talk about work. This. See, these are many, many reasons why I don't want to talk about work.

Sam (16:32)

Well, this is the same thing I do to my cat. When my cat won't stop asking me about the podcast, I start throwing pictures in my cat's face.

Nick (16:41)

There. There are some detectives, I've heard more than one detective say this or write about this, where they say, you know, when I come home from work, and maybe some FBI agents as well. When I come home from work, I take my shoes off and I leave them on the steps to the garage or to the. On the steps to the back door or on the porch that I don't want to walk in my. My detective shoes while I'm at home. I don't. You know, when. When it's time to go to work, I put those shoes on and I turn it on. And when it's time to come home and be with my family, I take those shoes off and I shut it off. I like that they show this part. And we'll see this with Holden Ford a little bit, too, when him and the girlfriend start getting into problems with their relationship, that a lot of the problems that they're having. Bill Tench at his home with his wife and holding forward with his girlfriend most of the time at her apartment or rented house, that a lot of these problems, the issues in the relationship, stem from their jobs, the stressfulness of their jobs, and also the stress of knowing when I'm trying to track down a serial killer. The longer it takes me or any mistake I make just means more people end up dead. So there's. There's always a ticking clock. There's always a clock. And that clock, when it hits that hour, it ends with another innocent victim.

Sam (18:15)

And what we also learned from Edmund Kemper, though, is there's a bunch of them out there. So there's a ticking clock, but there's a ticking clock on every killer that they haven't caught yet. And I also wonder, because most, if not all of these killers or are sexually motivated if this would affect, affect their sex life with their partners as.

Nick (18:41)

Far as the stresses of the job. And this in how it can affect the home life. It. This is discussed in Douglas's books Obsession and also in his book Journey into Darkness. But I think it's better explained and explored in Robert Ressler's book Whoever Fights Monsters.

Sam (19:05)

We should do a deep dive on that book.

Nick (19:07)

Back at the office, Bill Tench calls Detective McGraw. This is about the A.D.A. jeffries case. We talked about this A.D.A. jeffrey's case more in our episodes one and two of, of this series that we're currently doing. This is the unsolved case of the, the mother and son that were killed. And I think that they're, they're attempting to or at least planting the seed that this might be a reference to BTK's first killing, which we know at least the one he confessed to. The Otero murders was much different than the ADA Jeffries case is depicted in Mindhunter. But this is Bill calling Detective McGraw to say that, you know, he had been looking at those photos, the crime scene photos that he had been taking home, and he noticed that the knots on the ligatures binding ADA Jeffries are nautical. And he points out the obvious to the detective that Fairfield, Iowa, where these murders took place, is landlocked. Thus shrinking your suspect pool.

Sam (20:17)

Right.

Nick (20:18)

Probably quite greatly, I would guess most of most of episode. Episode 8 is about the nickel for a tickle school principal. Yeah, a principal who is tickling the.

Sam (20:30)

Students feet, probably also smelling them.

Nick (20:33)

That's unsettling. Holden is, Holden is worried about escalation. So what we've seen so far is the team has learned that there is a natural progression and escalation to deviant behavior. After studying Jerry Brudos crimes in history, they understand that he first started off stealing women's undergarments and then that escalated to the extremes of, of abduction, rape and murder and other extreme depraved and deviant behavior with multiple victims. The tickle principal, Roger Wade, as named on the show, is real and is discussed in one of Douglas's books, although I cannot confirm that that is his real name. This is when things take a bit of a turn because we get Holden who stumbles onto a very interesting technique. He goes back to interview Brudos and Tench is not going to go along with this. He doesn't want to. He's having his problems at home. He's not traveling all the way back out to Oregon to interview a guy that he thinks is not adding to any of their studies that they're not learning anything from Jerry Brudos. While Brudos is not willing to admit to the killings, the interviews with Brudos are not working. While Dr. Wendy Carr finds them fascinating from an academic standpoint, Holden and Bill would like to use the interviews of the serial killers to better learn how to identify and apprehend these types of killers. Brudos on the one on one with Holden Ford tells him he has a lot of ideas about the murders and about the killer who actually committed the murders. This goes down this road that is completely fascinating to me. This is a technique that has proved to be very valuable. Most notably, this technique was used on Ted Bundy. To learn his methods and find more victims, read Ted Bundy Conversations with a Killer, the Death Row Interviews or watch it. The audio tapes were made into a four part series on Netflix with the title Conversations with a Killer. The Ted Bundy tapes also read one of my absolute favorite true crime books, the Riverman Ted Bundy and I Hunt for the Green River Killer by the late and great Robert Keppel. At the same time here, Captain, they are interviewing, they being the FBI team are interviewing and hoping to hire a fourth member of the team. I found it intriguing that one of the gentlemen that they interview is Bill, a detective from Atlanta who obviously we're going to meet Bill again while he doesn't get the job. We meet Bill again in season two.

Sam (23:28)

And he essentially works with FBI in season two.

Nick (23:31)

The character name that gets the job is Greg Smith. His character's fun, he's a very religious man and takes a back seat often at times to Bill Tench and Holden Ford.

Sam (23:45)

Well, isn't, doesn't it come out that he has some family connections and that's maybe why he was hired?

Nick (23:52)

Yes. So their, their superior is Agent Shepard and Shepard says that Greg Smith's, he, he knows Greg Smith's father, that they went to Dartmouth together. And so he says it in a way of like suggesting like this is my, this is my suggestion of who you should hire and you know how it goes. When you have a boss usually that, that doesn't mean you have an option. That means you go with the boss's pick there. And I had a, I would like to hear from, if, if the listeners know and can sell it to me. I would like to know who they think Greg Smith is. I looked and looked at several different FBI agents that of note and I couldn't, I couldn't sort out if, if he's supposed to be representing one of those those real life agents.

Sam (24:49)

Or maybe he's amalgamation of multiple agents.

Nick (24:53)

Episode nine begins with the ADT man dressed in the coat that he had laid out with a stocking over his head. Presumably he is in the home of a soon to be victim. TV's number one drama high potential returns with star Kaitlin Olsen as the crime solving single mom with an IQ of 160. Every week, Morgan uses her unconventional style and brilliance to crack LAPD's most perplexing cases. It's the perfect blend of humor and mystery. She's breaking the mold without breaking a nail. New episodes of High potential Tuesdays 10, 9 Central on ABC and stream on Hulu. While you're buying new school supplies and trying to plan a new schedule this season, the last thing you want to factor in is a giant wireless bill. But with Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to for way less money. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. That's right, $15 a month for really great premium wireless service. I love Mint Mobile. Why? Because it's the same great service that I get with other providers that shall not be named at a fraction of the price. So great service, save money. That's Mint Mobile. Get this new customer offer and your 3 month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month at mint mobile.com tcg that's mintmobile.com tcg upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first 3 months only. Speeds may slow above 35gb on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites. Indeed sponsored Jobs help you stand out and hire fast. With Sponsored Jobs, your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com podcast, just go to Indeed.com podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions apply. Hiring indeed is all you need. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car.

Sam (28:06)

Selling a car, not so much. We're really doing this, huh?

Nick (28:10)

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and.

Sam (28:18)

Pay us this afternoon. Bye bye, Truckee.

Nick (28:22)

Of course, we kept the favorite. Hello, other Truckee.

Sam (28:27)

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply. Are we right? We are back. Cheers, mates. Tall cans in the air.

Nick (28:48)

Cheers to you, ladies and germs. ADT man in the home, and he's not there to work on the security system. He's there and as said, dressed to kill. He is waiting and waiting and waiting, but the victim does not return home, and he gets very frustrated and he leaves. Now, this is absolutely real. We know that Dennis Raider intended to kill Anna Williams, age 63, in 1979. She escaped death by returning home much, much later than he had expected. Raider explains during his confession that he became obsessed with Williams and was absolutely livid. Those were his words. Quote, absolutely livid when she evaded him. He recalled spending hours waiting at Williams's home but becoming impatient and leaving when she did not return from visiting with friends. Williams ultimately got lucky. There. They're in the scene. He is drinking from a glass, right? A glass that belongs to the victim. It's. It was in the home when he got there. I like how they're sneaking these things in because this is another one of Dennis Raiders dumb things that he would do at every crime scene and then later blame the cops for not finding. He's like, I drink. I would drink. He would drink from a glass, right? Leave his fingerprints on it. And. But. But he would put the glass back in the cupboard. Then later, of course, years later, blame the cops that, oh, I gave you this clue and you. You never found it. Next, in the FBI car, we see Holden and Tench. They're discussing Richard Speck. And the Holden Ford character compares mass murderer Richard Speck to a famous movie star. And he's showing Bill Tench articles about the killer that he had clipped over the years. In fact, he had had them prior to his job working for the bsu.

Sam (30:56)

Well, this guy is pure evil.

Nick (30:58)

After this scene, they're off to interview Speck. Richard Speck killed eight student nurses in their Chicago residence via stabbing, strangling, slashing their throats, or a combination of all three. This on the night of July 13, early morning hours of July 14, 1966, a ninth potential victim survived by hiding underneath a bed. Richard Speck was sentenced to death. However, his sentence was reduced to 400 to 1200 years imprisonment. And this was changed in 1972. This was later reduced again to 100 to 300 years in prison. Richard Speck died of a heart attack while incarcerated at Stateville Correctional center on the eve of his 50th birthday. Probably a side effect of all of the booze, cocaine and steroids that he somehow got a hold of and consumed while in prison.

Sam (31:59)

1. One of the things I think are interesting is all these serial killers are different, and we see them in different locations, different prisons, and the viewer wouldn't know what that prison was like or not like. Is it accurate representation of that prison, or is the director of Mindhunter having these prisons to reflect more about the killer? Does that make any sense?

Nick (32:30)

It makes absolute sense. And I think that it might be a fairly accurate depiction of some of the prisons. Some of them are very similar during the show. You know, I would. I would think. I kind of think of the Monte Rissle prison and the Jerry Brudos prison seem very similar. But the flip of that is the prison where you have Richard Speck seems very chaotic, right? And then where we see Ed Kemper throughout the series is very buttoned up that that facility. And I think part of that has to do with the facility themselves. And I would think that it's a somewhat accurate depiction with those two, because one of their locations. But also, keep in mind Kemper's in Vacaville. It's essentially a state facility hospital. Corrections hospital, Right. Where Spec is in this. This very chaotic Stateville Correctional center. And he's in there with a lot of really bad people. While incarcerated at the Stateville Correctional Center, Richard Speck was given the nickname Birdman. This was after the film Birdman of Alcatraz. This because he kept the pair of sparrows that flew into his cell. We, as we pointed out in our previous episodes, Richard Speck was not a model prisoner by any means. He was often caught with drugs or distilled moonshine. Punishment for such infractions never stopped him because he would laugh at them. He'd get in trouble for something. He's like, what are you going to do to me? I'm in here for 1,200 years.

Sam (34:12)

Real piece of.

Nick (34:13)

They discuss with Speck how he had told the victims that he only wanted to rob them, but ended up killing them. Now, this Too goes back to insights into btk. As we know, BTK would often use this lie to calm his victims, to gain control of them and tie them up. During the interview on the show, Richard Speck throws his pet sparrow into a fan, killing it in front of the agents. So this is somewhat true. Okay, this is somewhat true. It's not true that he threw the sparrow into the fan in front of John Douglas or Robert Ressler. In Douglas's book Mindhunter, he talks about this incident and he says that Spec revealed to him, Douglas in an interview that he had found an injured sparrow that had flown in through one of the broken windows and nursed it back to health. So that part is true. And when the bird was healthy enough to stand, he tied a string around its leg and had it perched up on his shoulder. But he had Spec had a disagreement with a guard, not with Douglas. And when this guard told Spec that you can't have pets, you're not allowed to have pets, this is when Richard Speck walked over to a spinning fan and threw the small bird in. And of course horrified the guard. And the guard says something like, I thought you liked that bird. You know, you took care of it. Spec says, I did, but if I can't have it, no one can. Now into insights into Spec give the team the idea to further explore, organize and disorganize killers. As Richard Speck is very much a disorganized killer. And then they dive into the differences of spree killers, which is Richard Speck versus serial killers, which is Monty Rissell, Jerry Brudos, Ed Kemper. During this conversation on the show, they're kind of loosely coining the terms along the way of spree killer and serial killer. The agents are then called out to Adairsville, Georgia to investigate the rape and murder of 12 year old Lisa Don Porter. In the episode, they are notified by the FBI Atlanta field office. There actually was a case that's that this mirrors and they use the killer's real name, but they, they did not use the victim's name here. So this was real life case.

Sam (36:50)

I do believe they changed some of the details of, of the crime as well.

Nick (36:54)

Yeah, so there was Daryl Jean Deaver, I would say Dever, but I think Holden Ford says Deaver on the show, that's the killer's real name. He murdered a girl named Mary Frances Stoner on November 30, 1979 in Adairsville, Georgia. He was convicted of her murder in November of 1983. This is after several mistrials so it kind of drug on through the court system. But he was eventually convicted of that and he was executed by electric chair in May of 1995. Now Douglas, John Douglas devotes an entire chapter to this case in his book. The chapter is titled Everyone has a Rock.

Sam (37:39)

But I think this case is also interesting because as we see serial killers seem to escalate. We're seeing an escalation in their knowledge of these crimes and these criminals. So it seems like they're getting better as they go along.

Nick (37:57)

Well, and this is at least as depicted on the show. This is all sort of tactics and strategies that they learned from talking to serial killers. Right, because they talk to Kemper, he's an open book. They talk to Brudos, he, he doesn't want to tell them anything, but they learn ways to get Brutus to talk. It just like with the, the very simple part of bringing Monty Risso the big red soda that he requested. And now he's willing to talk. And so we see this kind of play out here. I was going to read some excerpts from that from that chapter in Douglas's book, but I, I don't know if I do it any justice. I really think that people got to read that from start to finish there. Cigarettes smoked by Bill Tench in episodes seven, eight and nine, we get five total. So he's cutting back. He's cutting back. Very disappointing with this number getting smaller and smaller. I started, I realized too late in the game, I should, should be counting the whiskeys that he's drinking because it feels like as the shows go on, he's smoking less cigarettes but drinking more whiskeys.

Sam (39:08)

Two whiskeys for every cigarette.

Nick (39:11)

Episode 10 opens with the delivery of one of BTK's letters to the newspaper. And as we've already said, and as we know, BTK communicated with anyone who was willing to help him make a name for himself. Holden and Tench go to Atlanta and this is where you see them play out and plan a strategy to get Deaver to talk. He's not admitted to anything. The most he says is that he saw the girl at one point and Tench and the local police come up with a really good lead on this. This is old fashioned detective work. When Tench's character notices that the trees near the what is believed to be the abduction site were recently trimmed. And so he thought, let's start looking or at least talk to the persons that trimmed those trees. Because a company was hired to come in and clear the trees from the power lines.

Sam (40:11)

Right.

Nick (40:11)

They're Going to go to Atlanta to try to get this guy to confess because they're pretty convinced that Deaver did it. Deaver passed a polygraph examination on the show. I couldn't sort out if that was true, but I did find without being able to have the time to read them. Some of the court transcripts are available online for his trial or one of his trials. There were several mistrials.

Sam (40:36)

Right.

Nick (40:37)

Anyway, he does pass the polygram examination on the show, and we know, and have said this for years here, that true psychopaths can and often do pass the polygraph examination. This seems to be their suspicions here. Right? Oh, he passed it. We still want to go talk to him. We don't think that you asked the right questions. We don't think you asked them in the right way to get this guy to talk. They often can pass these polygraph examinations simply due to their complete lack of remorse and other factors. That's not going to get past our fictional agents here. They strategically place personal items from the victim around the interview room. They schedule the interview for nighttime, and it was the rock. Just like his chapter, everyone has a rock. And it was the rock that was placed in the room that got Deaver to break down. So Douglas gets the killer using practices and techniques learned from studying and interviewing killers.

Sam (41:43)

Well, it's fascinating, too, because we. We know, and the killer knows that rock is an instrument in the murder. So by placing it in the room, you're almost implying to the killer that we know more than you think we know.

Nick (41:59)

Yeah. And that's the reaction they have on the show is they tell. They kind of just place the rock there. And then Holden reveals it during the interview, but in a very nonchalant way. He doesn't. He doesn't talk about the rock. He doesn't gesture towards it or anything. And what we see the Deaver character do on the show is he starts staring at that rock, and he gets. He's visibly nervous immediately. And they let that linger for a while before pointing out that only the killer would know the importance of that insignificance of that rock. And you're having a reaction to it.

Sam (42:37)

This is actually the same tactic and was used in a very famous movie, A Few Good Men, where they bring in the air traffic controllers. Now, they're not going to testify to anything, but Colonel Jessup does not know that. So he has to give him the truth.

Nick (42:55)

As said on the show, this breaks down the character and leads to the arrest. And after making the arrest, the officers, the local officers and the agents, they go and celebrate at a cop bar. We see Bill Tench there. He burns a dog, has a couple of whiskeys. Then later we will see Bill Tench smoking his final cigarette of season one. And then they slowly fade in. The music here and I really love the way that they did this. We hear. We then hear in the Light by Led zeppelin from the 1975 Physical Graffiti album. They play that for a while. They. They break to another scene. This is near the end of season one where we have Holden Ford returning to Vacaville to see Big Ed Kemper. It's confusing because it. Well, maybe we should leave this part out. Maybe we don't need to talk in detail about this scene because it's pretty powerful scene here. But then they. They go right back into the. In the Light by Led Zeppelin and we see the. The Ford character collapse in the hospital hallway. The final scene of series one is Dennis Raider, btk, tossing pages and pages depicting torture into a burn bin.

Sam (44:26)

Mindhunter Season one. So much good music. One thing that, you know, I'll say I'm just a little disappointed in you that you didn't go through the cars. If you are a car guy or a car girl, this series has some classics in there.

Nick (44:46)

I did mention the car that they drive, which is the 1971 Plymouth satellite.

Sam (44:51)

Yes, awesome car, but also awesome acting. So if you would have to break down who your top three characters so far.

Nick (45:03)

Well, for me it would be the three main characters. Holden Ford, Bill Tench and Wendy Carr. Or. Or at least I'm calling them the main characters. Again, just like I said earlier, the way that they work together in those scenes I thought was just, look, one person can be brilliant on their own, but to get something orchestrated like that together, that's true brilliance. That's. That's much more difficult to do than just one person being great at their craft. Who were the three for you? I guess the Ed Kemper character is, is played very well by, by that actor as well. But for, for me, I really like seeing the three working together as a team.

Sam (45:46)

I think Ed is probably like the most quotable because he has a certain draw to his voice and because he comes off so endearing and, and also like his. His voice is almost like round like his voice is almost like a bubble. But what he is saying is so sick and so sadistic. It's almost masked by this unique drawl.

Nick (46:11)

Yes. And we do know that in real life, John Douglas almost died and he landed in the hospital for a very long period of time, but it was not as depicted on the show, where he has that interaction with Ed Kemper at the end in the. The medical portion of the. The state facility. But yes, the. The Ed Kemper character is. Is fantastic. And you're exactly right. The most quotable by far, and I would say second on the quote scale would probably be Bill Tench for the times that Holden Ford is annoying him. Or. Or he does something that Tench doesn't approve of.

Sam (46:57)

Well, Cameron Britton is Edmund Kemper. Fantastic job. But I think what surprised me is you. You learn about actors and Jonathan Groff, I think I'm pronouncing that correct. He's Holden Ford. And so I know nothing about this guy. You're introduced to him within minutes. He's. He's basically the main guy, him and Bill Tench. But Jonathan is such a brilliant Broadway actor, and he's a singer and dancer, and that's really his wheelhouse. If you get a chance to see him on Broadway, make sure you do so. But it's also kind of hard to watch him because the whole time all you can think about is that he's a detective, he works for the FBI. Why is he singing and dancing? It makes no sense. And then anything that. Holt McCallany, he is absolutely brilliant in Shot Caller. He's a prisoner in Shot Caller. But the whole time you're like, why is he in prison? He's an FBI agent. Oh, he must be undercover. So, yeah, I just think the acting is brilliant, the cinematography is brilliant. And one of the things I think this is true. Don't quote me on this, but when they said, well, it's not coming back for season three, four, or five, you go, well, why not? Well, it costs a lot to make. And when we're talking with John Douglas, he talked about how David Fincher would shoot scenes multiple times. So you go, okay, well, that. That would cost some money. But what I heard also is a lot of the buildings and the background to make it the time period correct and to make the visual aspect of the background correct. A lot of that stuff is cgi. And so obviously that would have cost a lot of money, which.

Nick (49:06)

And which should get easier as they progress. Right. With the season two is going to be less in the past, more recent.

Sam (49:18)

Right.

Nick (49:18)

And you could get to the point. I mean, BTK wasn't apprehended till. What did I say earlier, 2005?

Sam (49:26)

Well, my argument, though, somebody I told, hey, the background is cgi. And they go, no way. It looks too good. I go, yeah, but it's easier to do a still image CGI than it is to do a dinosaur, so. Yeah, because I'm not. I'm not a huge fan of cgi, but if that's how they altered all the backgrounds in Mindhunter, then I guess maybe I need to reevaluate my opinion.

Nick (49:57)

Yeah, if that's how it was done, it was done to perfection.

Sam (49:59)

Many books that we reference here in this series, I would recommend Minehunter by John Douglas and also the cases that haunt us. I really enjoyed that book from John Douglas.

Nick (50:13)

Yeah, there's. I mean it's four True Crime Garage episodes of talking about things to go watch, listen to, read and all of them that were referenced here. Very good stuff.

Sam (50:27)

If you'd like to support the garage, go to truecrimegarage.com pick something up in the merch store and we'll be forever grateful to you. Thanks for listening to the Mind Hunter series. And until next week, be good, be.

Nick (50:41)

Kind, and don't litter. Sam.