Shadow of the Bridge /// Part 1 /// 878

Summary

Podcast Summary: True Crime Garage – Shadow of the Bridge /// Part 1 /// Episode 878

Release Date: October 14, 2025
Hosts: Nic and the Captain
Guests: Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee (The Murder Sheet podcast, authors of Shadow of the Bridge)

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Overview

This episode launches a deep, multi-perspective exploration of the Delphi Murders—the 2017 double murder of Liberty German and Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana. Joined by fellow true crime podcasters and authors Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee, the hosts discuss the case’s haunting legacy, the exhaustive investigation, community impact, and the process behind the new book, Shadow of the Bridge: The Delphi Murders and the Dark Side of the American Heartland. Through candid, emotional conversation, the team reflects on lessons learned, the effect of true crime coverage, and the enduring quest for justice.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

The Enduring Shadow of the Delphi Murders

• Anya Kane’s First Encounter ([04:57])

  • Anya vividly recalls learning about the case with her mother, relating the tragedy of Abby and Libby to her own younger sisters.
  • Quote: “I remember just telling her, don’t worry, mom. They’re going to get the guy. One of the girls seemingly caught a picture of him on the bridge. Years and years later, that just didn’t seem to be happening.” — Anya Kane

• Kevin Greenlee’s Perspective ([05:45])

  • Initially aware only after the murders, Kevin found the case already mired in speculation and complexity.

• Title’s Meaning and the Bridge’s Symbolism ([06:59])

  • The “shadow” represents the lingering pall over Delphi, as well as the literal shadow cast by the Monon High Bridge—the scene of the girls' abduction.
  • Quote: “It’s just like a shadow over all of us.” — Kevin Greenlee
  • Quote: “The bridge was his [the killer’s] trap. Whoever was going to cross... was going to be the person or people he went after.” — Anya Kane ([09:09])

The Crime Scene and Community Response

• Visiting the Bridge and Its Dread

  • The bridge is described as unstable, frightening, and symbolic of entrapment. Even seasoned law enforcement officers, like State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, found it intimidating.
  • Quote: “He [Doug Carter] actually had to crawl across it.” — Kevin Greenlee ([09:59])

• Community Mobilization ([12:31])

  • Discovery of the girls’ disappearance galvanized town-wide search efforts, with both families and strangers joining.
  • Quote: “Employers, businesses, were even telling their employees... take the day off and go and join in this search.” — Kevin Greenlee ([13:45])

• Religious and Social Cohesion

  • The community’s close-knit, faith-based bonds played a critical role in their response.
  • Quote: “[Indiana] tends to be quite a bit more religious than many other states as well. I would think that has something to do with the tightness of this community.” — Host ([14:40])

Early Investigation, Forensic Clues & Evidence

• Mike and Becky Patty: Anchors of the Search ([16:06])

  • Libby’s grandparents led search efforts and have demonstrated resilience, grace, and advocacy throughout.

• Immediate Crime Scene Finds ([19:43])

  • The “three findings”: Branch/stick arrangements over the bodies, an unspent .40-caliber cartridge (critical forensic evidence), and Libby German’s cell phone capturing incriminating video/audio.
  • Quote: “[The sticks] don’t look so much like someone’s purposely placing sticks as it does someone just hastily putting sticks over bodies in the attempt to conceal.” — Anya Kane ([25:26])
  • Quote: “On that [phone] video … he says at one point: ‘Guys… down the hill.’ And during that pause, you can hear the sound of a gun rack.” — Kevin Greenlee ([21:01])

• Investigative Holdback: The Secret of the Bullet ([27:47])

  • Law enforcement’s deliberate secrecy regarding the bullet, to prevent the killer from destroying evidence.
  • Quote: “If we put out, ‘Oh, we recovered a bullet from the crime scene’... the killer’s going to get rid of his gun. So it became very important to keep that and some of these details secret.” — Kevin Greenlee

• Learning from Law Enforcement Decisions

  • Both Anya and Kevin reflected on how, in hindsight, their criticisms of law enforcement’s strategic holdback of details were misplaced.

Media, Podcasting, and Public Involvement

• Role of True Crime Coverage ([32:13])

  • The case grew from casual interest into obsession, as reporting became both a mission and, occasionally, a burden for the hosts.
  • Quote: “We cannot let this go. We have to keep reporting on it and try to get answers.” — Anya Kane

• Informing and Shaping the Narrative

  • The podcast filled gaps in public awareness; the hosts often released important information or context that official channels withheld.

• Interactions with Law Enforcement

  • Over time, the podcasters discovered that law enforcement was listening to their episodes—even playing clips for internal discussion.
  • Quote: “Yeah, Kevin, you were [critical]. I heard the clips.” — Kevin recalls Prosecutor McLeland ([36:35])

• Evaluating Podcasting’s Impact ([37:25])

  • Coverage was mostly beneficial in keeping the story alive, though some shows may have spread misinformation.
  • Quote: “For the most part, [podcast coverage] was probably a neutral to positive impact.” — Anya Kane

Grace, Resilience, and Lessons Learned

• The Strength of Victims’ Families ([47:49])

  • Despite enduring both tragedy and online abuse, the Patty family has shown remarkable grace. Becky Patty, for example, offered food—including banana bread—to trial spectators, even those who spread rumors against her.
  • Quote: “I don't understand how she was able to do that, but I have so much respect for her.” — Kevin Greenlee ([48:04])

• Law Enforcement as Real People ([50:38])

  • Doug Carter, known for his emotional resolve, is praised as a leader who shielded his team and supported the investigation through empathy and example.
  • Quote: “He was providing them a level of cover where they could do the work they needed to do.” — Anya Kane

• Humility and Seeing Complexity ([53:16], [55:14])

  • The experience taught Anya and Kevin to avoid assumptions and approach future cases with humility, realizing the limits of outside perception.

• Spotlighting Everyday Heroes ([56:56])

  • Investigators, prosecutors, social workers, and other members of the team are recognized for their unwavering commitment and humanity, notably CPS agent Kathy Schenck, whose meticulous review surfaced the tip on Richard Allen.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Why the title “Shadow of the Bridge”?
  • “We keep coming back to [this case] because there is something here we just can’t quite escape. It’s just like a shadow over all of us.” — Kevin Greenlee ([06:59])
• On the video evidence:
  • “These are two girls who I think are being stalked by this man. ... They sound scared, but like they’re trying to hold it together to avoid setting him off.” — Anya Kane ([22:22])
• On law enforcement secrecy:
  • “Honestly, if they’d taken our advice, especially around the cartridge and the bullet... I don’t know if this case would have gotten solved.” — Anya Kane ([28:29])
• On Becky Patty’s kindness in the face of abuse:
  • “She would look right in the eyes of some of these people, including people who had accused her of murder, and she would give them freshly baked banana bread.” — Kevin Greenlee ([48:04])
• On the emotional toll:
  • “We had to learn how to communicate with victims’ families... because it's literally their lives.” — Anya Kane ([49:17])
• On lessons for future reporting:
  • “There’s no prize for being first when it comes to thinking up something. ... I’m not going to be as quick to form an assumption.” — Anya Kane ([53:29])
• On the best of humanity coexisting with the worst:
  • “There is something extraordinary... where the absolute worst things we are capable of as a species exist side by side with the absolute best of people.” — Kevin Greenlee ([55:14])

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Key Timestamps

• 04:57 – Anya Kane’s initial reaction to Delphi news
• 06:59 – Why “Shadow of the Bridge” title was chosen
• 09:09 – Personal experiences and impressions of the bridge
• 12:31 – Community search efforts for the missing girls
• 16:06 – Mike and Becky Patty’s role during crisis
• 19:43 – The three major evidence findings: sticks, phone, bullet
• 22:22 – Full impact and interpretation of the video/audio evidence
• 25:26 – Analysis and debunking of “sticks as a message”
• 27:47 – Law enforcement’s strategic holdback of evidence
• 32:13 – The shift from interest to involvement for the hosts
• 36:35 – Law enforcement listening to and responding to podcast critiques
• 37:25 – Evaluation of true crime podcasters’ impact on the case
• 47:49 – Grace and perseverance of the Patty family
• 50:38 – Doug Carter’s leadership and compassion
• 53:16, 55:14 – Reflections on mistakes, humility, and humanity in investigation
• 56:56 – Unsung heroes of the case, like Kathy Schenck

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Tone and Style

Casual, empathetic, and deeply engaged, the conversation mixes somber reflection with honest, sometimes lighthearted banter. The hosts and guests display respect for victims, families, and investigators, while not shying away from critique where warranted. The episode balances meticulous detail with a sense of community and shared mission—both to inform the audience and humanize those affected by this notorious crime.

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End of Part 1 Summary
Stay tuned for Part 2, where the investigation, trial developments, and ongoing impact are explored further.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Host Jerry]

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[Co-host Jerry's Heart]

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[Host Jerry]

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[Host Jerry]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Hmm.

[Host Jerry]

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[Host Jerry]

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[Host Jerry]

Welcome to off the Record. I'm your host, Nichols. It's good to be seen and it's good to see you off the record.

[Nichols]

Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Host Jerry]

True Crime Podcast Podcast Podcast. Be good, be kind and don't live. Gather round, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true ground. It's a great day in the garage when you have two friends to join you. We have the captain, of course. He's here every week. But we are joined today by Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee, our friends from the Murder Sheet podcast. We buddied up a few years back and shared a case that we were, all four of us, very much obsessed with. And now with the recent release of your fantastic, wonderful book, Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders and the Dark side of the American heartland. It's out now. It's available everywhere. It's an incredible read. Anybody that has been eyeballs and ear balls deep in this case for years must go and get this and check it out. The dust jacket tells us that on February 13, 2017, two teenage friends went for a walk in the woods just outside of the small city of Delphi, Indiana. They should have been safe, but Liberty German and Abigail Williams never made it home. The next day, searchers found their bodies in a clearing. The two girls have been brutally murdered. Incredibly, in the final moments of her life, Liberty somehow managed to capture a video of of the man who would soon murder her and her friend. This blurry recording showed a man lumbering toward the girls and then gruffly commanding them to go down the hill. A fascinated public obsessed over those clues. Speculation about the killer's identity ran rampant on social media. Meanwhile, a sprawling law enforcement investigation led to some of the darkest corners of the heartland. Still, the case remained unsolved for years, but that changed when Delphi resident Richard Allen was arrested in October of 2022. We have the authors of Shadow of the Bridge, Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee joining us here today in the garage to talk about this case, the podcast, and really any way that the captain and I choose to steer this ship. So welcome to the garage, guys. This is probably long overdue.

[Anya Kane]

Well, thank you guys much for having us. We're absolutely delighted to be here and just want to commend both of you for your coverage. We, we love you guys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we really do.

[Host Jerry]

Do you remember when you first learned of the murders? Where were you? What were you up to? Because here you have arguably two podcasts that have. While we are able to shine a light on some other unsolved cases with the murder sheet and our great garage cast here, we both have continued to return time and time again to this case. But the both of you were not yet seated up high in your powerful podcasting chairs back in 2017 on that horrible day when a tiny little man with hell in his heart decided to abduct and take away two precious and very special little girls, Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Anya, let's start with you.

[Anya Kane]

Great question and honestly, my, my story is going to make me sound kind of dumb. I remember vividly. I was in the kitchen at my parents house and my mom and I are both very into true crime. So we would talk about cases that we saw on the news and I remember reading, I think it was one of the English tabloids coverage of Delphi and my mom was so upset because the girls, Abby and Libby, reminded her of my two youngest sisters. They're about the same age. And she was like, I could totally see them going on this bridge to take Snapchats or something innocuous like that. And I remember just telling her, don't worry, mom, they're going to get the guy. One of the girls seemingly caught a picture of him on the bridge. Years and years later, that. That just didn't seem to be happening. But at the time I was like, this is going to be solved quickly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as for me, I happened to have a relative in the hospital at the time, so I wasn't paying much attention to the news for the first couple of weeks. And then I remember when I did start paying attention to and became aware of this crime, it already felt like it was so incredibly complicated because so many details were being released and speculated about on social media. I just imagined it would be impossible to really catch up and really understand what happened.

[Host Jerry]

And for the handful of our listeners that are not familiar with the murder sheet, we should point out that you guys are our neighbors. You are in the great state of Indiana, which of course, this is where this terrible case took place. Were you both in Indiana at the time?

[Anya Kane]

No, I was living in New York and. And Kevin was in Indiana.

[Host Jerry]

I love the title. It's so very fitting. Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders on the Dark side of the American Heartland. Your book is over 400 pages, so it's very much a complete telling of this Indiana tragedy. And you get so many words, you only get so many words to put onto the COVID Kevin, what is the story behind the chosen title?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, when we thought about really feels like this case cast a shadow over the town, over the families and over all of us who have been following it for so many years. As you so ably said, we keep coming back to it because there is something here we just quite can't quite escape. It's just like a shadow over all of us.

[Anya Kane]

And I will add to that one thing we learned during trial that kind of we didn't necessarily know about prior to picking the title, because the title has been something we came up with a long time ago. But, you know, Libby's phone data shows that the girls, you know, descend after they're being abducted by the killer. And it sort of was like some police speculated to us that, you know, they were at some point in the shadow of the bridge, sort of as. As some of these things unfold. So it kind of it kind of took on a new meaning for me when we were at trial.

[Host Jerry]

And not to make this some mystical thing here, but really for five years, over five years, we only had a couple things to look at and point to that we could recognize as evil. And it's. You have an inanimate object like the bridge that sort of represents some form of evil. Because to me, the first time we see Bridge Guy is from the footage from Liberty's phone. It's like this big, scary, tall bridge birthed this evil little man that we see for the first time. And for five and a half years, it's, who is Bridge Guy? Why was he there that day? What was he up to? And he just so happened to cross paths with. And I shouldn't say cross paths, because I've always believed that it was set like a snare trap, that the. The. The bridge was his spider web and he was just waiting for the flies to fall into it. What was your experience with the high bridge when you went out there?

[Anya Kane]

Great question. I completely agree with that analysis. I think the bridge was his trap. Whoever was going to cross the bridge that day was going to be the. The person or people he went after. And for us, neither of us is very athletic. I don't like heights. So whenever we would go to the Trails of Deli, first of all, there's a real heaviness there. There's a real sense of sadness there. It's often pretty deserted. But I remember the first time we went, we didn't go the main path to lead to the bridge. I think that was blocked off. We headed for the banks of Deer Creek. And then we're looking up at this just massive, hulking bridge. And it looked so unstable and frightening. And we remember just feeling like, wow, the girls must have felt very trapped up there once they realized they were being followed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Esanya says the bridge is unstable. And people who have walked out across it talk about how when the wind blows, sometimes the bridge itself moves and there's even missing planks in the bridge. And I recall when we spoke with former Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, he said after he crossed the bridge and then had to go back across it, he felt so uneasy, he actually had to crawl across it.

[Host Jerry]

Yeah, and that was a bit of a shocker to read that in your book with Doug Carter, because he's the type of guy, type of man that within 30 seconds of interacting with him, you can tell right away this is a brave, smart gentleman. And for him to have to crawl, as so many others Were sort of reduced to with this bridge for him to have to do that. Told me, you know, we were offered many times, we were asked by other podcasters, local folks, to go out to the bridge. And I. And while we. We planned several times to do that, and ultimately the plans would fall apart. But I knew in advance, I. Anya, I'm like you. I don't know what happened. I used to do ropes courses, jump off of cliffs when I was a kid. But at some point in my early 20s, I became terrified of heights. And I. I wouldn't have. I don't know that I would have made it out 10ft onto that bridge. So don't feel. Don't feel any uneasiness, because as Kevin says, the bridge would be shaking. I would be shaking on there as well.

[Anya Kane]

I appreciate that. And I'm gonna tell you, I. I just. The thing that kept flashing in my mind was like some yout video of, like, podcasters fall off bridge and die. Like, I was like, we don't want to be those people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's.

[Anya Kane]

It would be too. I mean, that. That would be us. That would be Kevin and me.

[Host Jerry]

So on February 13, 2017, we have both the perpetrator and the victims arriving at the trail system roughly at the same time in the early afternoon. And by all accounts, the. The victim. This was something that was a hot debate early on in the. In the goings of this investigation. But by all accounts, the victims do not know Richard Allen, who was later identified as Bridge guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, that's right.

[Host Jerry]

And they're arriving that day about the same time. Talk about the. The search that commenced. And what does that tell us about the town of Delphi and the county, Carroll county as well. So many people out searching for these two girls.

[Anya Kane]

So the search really gets started pretty quickly when Libby and Abby fail to meet back up with Libby's dad, Derek, as they planned. And, you know, he looks around for them, and I imagine he's thinking, oh, gosh, teenagers. Maybe they're just late. Although, frankly, that was pretty out of character for Libby not to be in contact. So when he can't find them, he brings in his family. Libby's family sort of swarms the trails, and they're all looking for her when they cannot find her and when she is just not responding to texts, not responding to calls. And they basically say, this is getting scary. And they phone in law enforcement, and law enforcement sends in sheriff's deputies, police officers from Delphi. There are firefighters involved. All these first responders going across the, you know, entire woods looking for the girls. And I want to do note that they're not looking for bodies. They're looking for maybe girls who got injured or who got lost or something like that. They really don't suspect any foul play. They just think maybe someone twisted an ankle and they're hunkered down somewhere scared.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to stress that when Anya talks about the first responders doing the search, that of course is entirely accurate, but that's only part of the story because Delphi is the type of place where everybody wanted to pitch in once they realized what was going on. Employers, businesses, were even telling their employees, if you want, take the day off and go and join in this search. It was a real community effort.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, like, people were so committed. And when I asked people, why is Delphi like that, almost like, is it just a very friendly town? People say it is. It's a town where everyone knows everyone, everybody. And it's a town where it's traditionally like a farming community. And what we've been told is like, sometimes in those rural farming communities, there's just this real sense of like, if my neighbor is in trouble, I'm gonna drop everything and help them deal with whatever situation that is. And that. That definitely came into play here.

[Host Jerry]

One thing too, is Indiana. For those that have not had the privilege of traveling through or staying in the state of Indiana, Indiana's tends to be quite a bit more religious than many other states as well. And I would think that that has something to do with the tightness of this community of Deli and Carroll County.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, a lot of the people in this story are people of faith. And that's something that did strike me. Not everybody, but. But a lot of people who were involved in this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Even the police chief of Delphi, Steve Mullen, he is so strongly a man of faith, he doesn't even swear he will do. He will even say he would go above and beyond to avoid swearing.

[Host Jerry]

There was quite a bit of swearing in your book, by the way, Kevin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, my father pointed that out to me the other day.

[Anya Kane]

Kevin's father was not happy about this.

[Host Jerry]

There was about as many F bombs as a Guns N Roses album. Let's talk about the Patties a bit, because really leading the charge on searching for the girls was Mike and Becky. Patty. I know that a lot of this is going to be repetitive because the folks that have been longtime listeners of our show and your show know the case very well. But there are some people tuning in today that don't know the particulars so tell us a bit about the Mike and Becky Patty.

[Anya Kane]

So Mike and Becky Patty are a couple. They were Libby's grandparents, or I should say Becky was her paternal grandmother and then Mike is her step grandfather. And they're. I, I truly think of them. This is going to sound cheesy, so I apologize to them if they listen, but I think of them as sort of a power couple. They're. They're a couple that's like, gets things done just in, just in life. I mean, beyond this whole situation. But when the family hit this kind of crisis, they were very much dedicated to each other, dedicated to their family and dedicated to figuring out what happened to the girls. They just have that kind of relationship, I think, where they kind of weather some of these storms. Mike is a lot quieter. Mike is very practical. He's, I believe, an engineer. So he has that sort of logical analysis of things. Becky is someone who's just kind of a force of nature. She's going to get things done. And you know, they're, they're tough people, but they're also very kind. In our experience, they're very, very kind. They look out for others and they're. I don't know, just. They have a gentleness about them that's really impressive just given everything that's happened. But when, when Libby turned up missing and then when, when things started to happen in the case, they were. They were going to be people who were never going to give up advocating for Libby and Abby.

[Host Jerry]

The following day, a shoe is found and then a. One of the search teams, a man from the search team spots a body or finds the girls. He was, from my understanding, actually hanging out with Mike Patty the night before when the girls were still missing. And they were trying to strategize and sort of game plan how to, how to find the girls. Take us into that meeting as well as the discovery.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, so it goes back to this idea that people know each other and they're calling in their friends and their friends are coming in and dropping everything to help them. So that searcher did know Mike Patty and there were these communications of what can we do to help? Where can we search civilians? Taking it into their own hands because again, they don't think they're looking for a crime scene. They think they're looking for two lost little girls. So the next day, so many volunteer searchers turn out they're being assigned into different groups and sent out there. A group of them, several groups of them really converge on the spot where the girls are and you have some men who are more in, you know, around the creek who are seeing clothing and they're seeing shoes, and they're saying, okay, these might be clues. And then on the other side, you have people on foot who are going through the forest. And one of them does come across the girls. It's a shocking sight because they can't really see them. They're in a bit of a shallow indentation near the banks of the deer of Deer Creek. They just come upon them, and they're so pale. He initially thinks they're mannequins, and then very quickly realizes this is a crime scene. So he's able to tell the other searchers with him, like, don't come any closer. We need to stay here and make sure no one walks over this crime.

[Host Jerry]

Scene when the girls are found. From an investigative standpoint, there are three clear and visible findings immediately that are of note with the girls.

[Nichols]

The.

[Host Jerry]

The bullet, the phone, and the sticks. There's been much to do about the branches, talk about all three pieces of those evidence or parts of the crime scene.

[Anya Kane]

So the first thing that's probably noticeable at the crime scene is that the girls are covered in these branches. And when I say covered, I really do mean they're really just a couple of handful of them. They don't cover them up as far as someone looking from overhead or someone coming right upon them. Although I will note that when it comes to the view from the other side of the creek, they do provide more coverage. So some have speculated that the goal was to render them hidden from the other side of the creek versus people on the side of the creek with the bodies. Those are the sticks. So they basically kind of crossed over them. And some have seen patterns in them and. And then others just felt, and law enforcement felt that it was just somebody trying to make sure they weren't seen from the other side of the creek.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then another key piece, as you indicated, was this bullet or this unspent cartridge, because it was a chamber that had been in a gun and had been cycled out without being fired. It was discovered between the bodies of the two girls. And this became even more crucial once you start considering the phone, because the phone was the phone of Liberty German. And on that phone was a recording of basically their abduction, the abduction of these two girls. And on that video, you get an idea of what the abductor, the kidnapper, this guy referred to as bridge guy, you can see what he's wearing, and you can also hear what he is saying. And he says at one point, guys. And then there was a pause. And then he says, down the hill. And during that pause, you can hear the sound of a gun rack. So it becomes clear that one of the ways he was able to control these two young girls was through brandishing a weapon. And so it became clear that the bullet at the crime scene must have come from that weapon.

[Nichols]

Now, initially, law enforcement only released a small portion of that video. What did you guys learn, or feel like you might have learned by them releasing the full length of that video?

[Anya Kane]

I felt the thing that really chilled me was I felt. I learned how scared the girls were. So when we all saw this initially, I think they released just a still from the video, which was like a zoomed in version of bridge guy. And then a few years later, they released kind of a bit of a clip of him walking. And, you know, they released audio at different times. So first it was just down the hill, then it was guys down the hill. And all of that kind of gave a sense of like, what they were looking for, which was, who is this guy? Does anyone recognize him? Does anyone recognize his voice or the way he's walking or how he's dressed? And what the full video did in court was just show us that, you know, these are two girls who I think are being stalked by this man. I feel like, as a woman, I've been in situations where you almost have this kind of voice where you're like more high pitched and you're more of like, okay, if I act really normal, this guy's going to leave me alone. It's like they sound scared, but like they're trying to hold it together to avoid setting him off. And you can tell that they're breathing very heavily. It's just. It's very upsetting to listen to because I remember when he approaches them, one, one or both of them says hi to him. Like, they're trying to be friendly, they're trying to be nice, and they're clearly very scared. Because I think. I think most guys who are not, like, threatening, you know, you don't want to do something where you like, following behind two young girls on a bridge. I think most guys, if you're like, oh, I don't want to freak them out, I'm just going to wait till they go and then I'll, you know, come back. Once they come back, then I'll use the bridge. You know, you're like, most guys are more thoughtful than that. So I think they realize something's not right here. And we're Being followed. But I think they were just hoping it was a misunderstanding on their parts. And. And I think what really stuck with me was Abby saying to Libby at one point, I'm paraphrasing, but something like, don't leave me up here. And that broke my heart because they never left each other in the end.

[Host Jerry]

The Styx, As I said, there's been so much talk about and speculation about the branches that they mean something, that they're significant to tell us who was responsible and why the girls were killed. But in all reality, the sense at the scene that investigators are getting immediately is that, no, that this. These are not branches that were freshly cut. They don't show markings of having been cut. These are in all likelihood branches that have, by the everyday power of the great mother nature, fallen to the forest floor. The killer collected them in haste and attempted to camouflage the the bodies in some form or fashion. That's. That's your description of. Of these branches as well. Right. So we don't confuse anybody out there. That's made a lot to do about these branches.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And I will say, I mean, law enforcement was open to the possibility that their initial hunch was incorrect. They did seek out expertise from one expert in sort of Norse runes. And what the guy said was, these aren't runes. I mean, like, what I'm looking at, if I basically throw out a bunch of sticks in my yard, and I invite you guys over, and for some reason, you come and you're like, what's going on? And I say, can you read my name in these sticks? Maybe you say, well, that kind of looks like an A, and that one off by itself kind of looks like an I, but the rest of it doesn't. You know, it's like, you, letters have to be in certain shapes in order to spell something, and these just weren't. So it. It doesn't look so much like someone's purposely placing sticks as it does someone just hastily putting sticks over bodies in the attempt to conceal. And I think that's what was clear early on. And they were open to other things. But an expert told them, hey, this doesn't spell anything. These aren't runes. So at some point, you have to let that go.

[Host Jerry]

Yeah, it's not the same as graffiti or writing pig and blood on the wall at a murder scene. These branches are really, like, looking at clouds in the sky. It's open to interpretation, and it's of no meaning at all. The alarm bells have to be going off immediately with the finding of this bullet in large Part due to the caliber, because.40 caliber is not a common law enforcement caliber of gun that most members, men and women in law enforcement carry. So immediately this has to be, even prior, I'm guessing, to. To finding and viewing the footage on the phone and hearing the audio on the phone, this. This bullet is significant right out the gate.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. They feel like this bullet could end up tying whoever we're looking for to this crime scene. And it also gave them the indication, I think early analysis indicated that they might be looking for a Sig Sauer weapon. So they had a sense and they were going to test every weapon against this thing. But I think they had a sense of we might kind of know the type of gun we're looking for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the importance of the bullet also kind of explains why so much about the details of the crime scene were kept secret for years. Because investigators realized that if we put out, oh, we recovered a bullet from the crime scene, and we feel we can tie it to a gun. If the killer reads that or hears that on television, obviously the first thing he's going to do is he's going to get rid of his gun. So it became very important to keep that and some of these details secret from the public, which did have the tendency to inspire a lot of conspiracy theorizing and confusion.

[Anya Kane]

And I'm gonna. I'm gonna not lie like we were. I feel kind of like we were overly harsh on law enforcement because we were definitely a voice saying, hey, why don't you release more details? What's going on? You know, like, let us know. You know, you have to use the public to help you solve this case. And honestly, if they'd taken our advice, especially around the cartridge and the bullet, I. I don't know if this case would have gotten solved. I think it was important that they really did not release anything around that and that that bullet detail never leaked, that never came out. And I think, you know, that shows how important it was. But we were. We were definitely people who were like, release stuff. And now I'm kind of like, no, I think. I think they did the right thing here, which.

[Host Jerry]

Which is incredible, considering all the other cases you guys have reviewed and cases we've reviewed. You take one that just had some big break. The yogurt shop. They had 13 pieces of holdback information, and every one of them managed to leak their way out even before they arrested and tried Springsteen and Michael Scott. And so it's not something that's easy to do, especially when you have so many different law enforcement Agencies involved. There was a lot of cooks in the kitchen for this one and they managed to keep that detail, as you said, perfectly secret. To the point that the killer was dumb enough to keep his gun all of that time. The the one thing that would truly tie him to the murders. Most people think that home security is just an alarm that goes off after a break in, scaring the intruder, often getting a neighbor's attention if you're lucky. But that's a reactive approach. By the time an intruder is inside of your home, it's too late. Your feeling of safety is shattered. That's why you should trust Simplisafe. Their system is designed to be proactive, not reactive. They use smart AI powered cameras to identify threats lurking outside of your home or business and immediately alert Simply Safe's professional monitoring agents. They access two way audio to confront the person, let them know that they are being recorded, they're being filmed, trigger sirens and spotlights to scare them off and request police dispatch when needed. All helping to stop the break in, stop the intruder while they are still outside of your home. That's why I love Simply Safe. It's a double layer of protection. You get the AI powered cameras with the professional monitoring and let me tell you from experience, their monitoring agents are better than other services and security systems that I have had in the past. It's a better system at a better price. Check out SimpliSafe for your home or your office. Get peace of mind. Visit simplisafe.com garage to claim 50% off a new system. That's simplisafe.com garage there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Nichols]

As the information was coming out in this case, was there a turning point for you and this question is for both of you. Was there a turning point of I, I'm just interested or fascinated with this case to, to the moment where you go, I, I need to get involved.

[Anya Kane]

That's a great question. I think this case was for me sort of like being a frog boiled in water. You know, if someone had just thrown me in in the middle of trial and I will commend some, some folks came in from YouTube and different podcasts and they were able to just jump in and go with it and they did a great job. But for me, I, I think I would have been like, get me out of here. I think it was so chaotic and it was so depressing and sad and heartbreaking. But I think for me it was like we started getting into it and then it just morphed into More of an obsession, in a way, because we were like, we cannot let this go. We have to keep reporting on it and try to get answers. And I think at some point we just crossed that threshold, perhaps without realizing it. We never really wanted to get involved because we never wanted to be part of the story. Although, unfortunately, that did happen kind of against our will. But we. We knew we were going to be involved in. In the sense of covering it for a long time. And there were a couple times there'd be so much drama and you'd be like, I don't want to cover this anymore. And we always kept coming back because it was like we felt we had a duty to say. Say what was going on, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I also think as time passed and we got to know the families better and got to know the city of Delphi better, and just to see how this affected all of them, it became in some way personal, that we really did very much want to see justice done, and we wanted to share the story of how that happened.

[Host Jerry]

Well, in some ways, you guys became, in a. Your podcast became an authority on the case because, like you said, you wanted more information to come out. Why are you holding back so much information? You do. The longer an investigation drags on, I think it's just human nature to start to wonder, are these. Are these guys able to solve this thing? Is this. Is this above their heads? I think that's just natural. But you guys sort of became a. An authority on the case because while this. There was information out there that was public information, the public didn't know about it. Right. So you were able to release information about this case that otherwise was going unnoticed?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, we were able to get that, and we were able to get some trust from members of the communities affected, and they were able to give us more information. So it kind of was a positive feedback cycle where we would do some reporting and people would kind of fill in and we'd be able to do more reporting. And that was nice. And I think it kind of shows that the community members, you know, did want to continue to put information out there. I think with law enforcement, they were. They were very much not leaking to us and not interested in having those conversations. And I understand that, you know, and we understood it at the time, too, but it was one of those things where I think they were more of like, why. Why are you. Like, why do you want to cover it in such depth? You know, and we had to explain to them it's because there is a strong public interest people Want to see what's happening. So I think over time, they came to understand where we were coming from, too. And they. They respected that, and they understood that even though we were criticizing them at times, we were trying to be fair about it. We weren't just trying to say, oh, they're corrupt or they're evil or they're incompetent. We were just, you know, we were speaking based on what we knew and trying to be as fair as possible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And they were listening. I didn't realize this at the time because the prosecutors and the police couldn't really talk to us because there was a gag order in place. They weren't talking to us, but we were talking to them through the podcast without knowing it, because people would be sending them clips of things we'd said on the show, either positive or negative, and not just us. They'd send them clips of your show and other programs. And we didn't realize that. And so when it came to the point where we were able to do interviews with some of these people, I remember, for instance, I was sitting down and Anya was with me. Of course, we were talking with prosecutor Nicholas McLeland, and I said, oh, you know, some people were pretty critical of you over the secrecy. And he just waited a beat and said, yeah, Kevin, you were. I. I heard the clips.

[Anya Kane]

And I remember, too, we were talking with one of the investigators on the case, and he was like, people in his department would, like, send him, you know, stuff, and they'd be like, well, I think I know more about your case than you do, because I listened to the murder sheet. And so he was like, like. So I think they were maybe a little annoyed with us at times, but I think they understood that we were trying to be fair. And I think they understood that with time, like, you know, you guys did some great coverage. The prosecutors did some great coverage on their show. I think they understood that all of these people are just trying to inform the public at the end of the day, and we don't. We don't mean harm, and you can't say that for everybody in podcasting or YouTube. But. But there. There were shows that were trying to do a good job, and I think they. They understood that for at least. For at least some of us.

[Nichols]

Do you think the coverage from podcasters and YouTubers helped the case ultimately, or do you think it hindered the case?

[Anya Kane]

I think that's a great question, and I think it. It really just depends on the show, and I think, for the most part, it didn't necessarily affect things either way. I'd say for, for our show, people sometimes thank us. They're like, thank you so much. I, I think you, you helped solve the case. And we have to be like, we didn't do anything. We truly did not help solve the case. Our show did not have an impact. It hopefully kept the public informed, but we don't deserve any credit as far as an outcome. And I think that is where shows did shine, where they could keep the public informed. I know at the Clue Awards at Crimecon, Mike Patty Libby's grandfather ended up thanking podcasters and, and people who were covering it in the media because he said that kept the story alive. So in terms of continuing to make it clear to everyone that Libby and Abby were important and that we all wanted to see this case solved, I think that's a benefit. And as far as hurting the case, I think in some instances there were attempts to hurt the case or misinform the public, but that was probably more specific shows doing that. So I think it was kind of across the board and it depends on what we're talking about. But for the most part, I think it was probably a neutral to positive impact.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would agree with that.

[Host Jerry]

Yeah.

[Nichols]

I often wonder because of the podcasters, because of the YouTubers that created also media coverage. I would see you guys on the news often and you just kind of wonder, that puts some pressure on law enforcement and maybe they wouldn't have gone back and double checked their work and maybe would be sitting here with the case still not solved after all these years.

[Anya Kane]

I thought that for a time too. But meeting those investigators, I think on some level they were as obsessed with it as all of us were. I think they were really emotionally locked in, in a way that almost surprised me because you're talking about all these, like, veteran law enforcement guys and they're also, you know, Midwestern middle aged men for the most part. And when we finally sat down to interview them for the book, a lot of them were like, crying because, like, I think Abby and Libby just came to mean a lot to them. So I feel like I for a long time thought, okay, we need to keep the pressure up because otherwise they might just ditch the case. Although maybe, maybe that's possible in the macro sense. But just having met some of them, I think they were in it for as long as it was going to take. And perhaps it was helpful for them because it ensured that higher ups knew, hey, this is really important and the public wants to see movement on this. So maybe it did Help with resources and giving them the space to do it. But yeah, it was interesting to finally meet some of these people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say Anya and I have had talks with both of you in real life about this case. And in those conversations, you could tell that all of us were really obsessed with finding answers and we really cared deeply about this case. And when you feel that way about a case, you can recognize it when you're talking with someone else who feels about the case and what the obsession and the compassion for the victims and the desire for justice that I felt coming from both of you was very, very similar to what I felt coming from these investigators.

[Anya Kane]

I will also add, that is something I do love about Nick's book on Delphi, because I know we're talking about our book, but I felt like Nick's book, you captured the, for lack of a better term, vibe of why everyone is so obsessed with this case, because it becomes almost. And I thought your book again, captured this really well. It becomes almost like a personal mission. And not every case has that effect. And it's not that every case isn't important. All of, all of them are important, I think, and deserve attention. It's just there's something about Delphi that makes everyone feel, if I can just dig a little harder, I might be able to get somewhere. And that. That was what sucked a lot of people in. I think that's partly what sucked us in. And it was. Yeah, I mean, it. It just, it kind of takes over your life for a lot of people.

[Host Jerry]

Well, this is going to turn into just one big love fest here because compliments all around the room, all around the garage today. One thing I loved about your guys's coverage of the case when it was ongoing before Richard Allen was identified and then after, and this carried over to the book. And that's what makes the book so good, right? If you like Anya, if you like Kevin, if you love the murder sheet, you're instantly going to love this book because it's an extension of all of the work that you guys have done on that. And the thing that I loved about your guys's work on this case was even as. As passionate and as obsessed as you may have become, at certain times, you manage to stay as level headed as one can in the moment. But you, you also don't pull any punches, right? You, you guys, I love that you call people out when they deserve to be called out. And you do that on the show and you do it in the book. And I think that that's one thing that sets you guys apart, that you're able to do that in a way that is also fair and level headed.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you. That means a lot. We, we tried it sometimes we didn't feel level headed, but we, we tried to maintain some kind of fairness and balance throughout.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think I've been very lucky in that regard because I'm married to a wonderful person to work with on this. Anya has journalistic background that I really, really rely on. I really rely on her judgment and her expertise. And a lot of the positive things that you've just said, I feel are really attributable to her. And I just feel very, very lucky not only to be married to her, but to be working with her.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, thank you, Kevin. I didn't force him to say that, by the way. I was all organic.

[Host Jerry]

Hey, Kevin, blink twice if you're being held against your will.

[Nichols]

He just blinked 365 times.

[Host Jerry]

And you know, on, I don't know about behind the scenes on your guys's end, but on our end, you're absolutely right. We got, we got up in our feelings about this case plenty of times and there were a handful of times that we are microphones off in a disagreement about the case or the investigation or what's going on with it. Trying to read too much between the lines. And more than once we had to look at each other and go, what's going on here? You know, you didn't kill him. You don't know who did it. I don't know who did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What.

[Host Jerry]

You know, what are we getting all worked up here for? It's, it's a case that drew so many people in and so many people had very loud voices. Some of them should not have had a loud voice at all. But it was a case that, that drew so many folks in. And as you say, I think that the good podcasters in the, in the good YouTube shows that were doing it correctly and that carried themselves with a level of integrity in a way, I think helped the overall encompassing story because I think it did manage to keep some of the public at bay and keep them, keep them a little more reserved because there were people that were going off the rails here and saying some crazy shit that just wasn't even, wasn't plausible, wasn't practical, wasn't in the realm of reality. And one thing, when we, this shows the, the level of class of the patties. You guys just, you guys just came to and witnessed your first Crime Con this, this last year. And we were so glad to see you guys there. Your natural fit. You should have been there the whole time. But in 2018, and Kelsey, not the first one. Kelsey, Libby's older sister, talks about this in Susan Hendrick's book Down the Hill, how she was in a very dark place in a world of hurt. Of course, why wouldn't she be until she. There was the healing sort of started for her. As she says in Susan Hendricks's book at the Nashville 2018 Crime Con. What is still very difficult for me to wrap my, my head and heart around is that in 2018, Mike and Becky Patty come up to the true crime garage table. They go way out of their way. They've just experienced the most horrific tragedy anybody could possibly ever experience. And they come up to us and say thank you guys for covering Libby and Abby's case and, and keeping the case and getting it out there. And it just, I, I told them I don't know if I would have the strength to, to do what you guys just did, to go out of your way and say something so nice to, to some, some folks that, that you, you've never met. And we are retelling your tragedy over and over again. And I. What was so. One thing that I think was lost on a lot of folks out there was what these families had gone through. And then their names to be smeared on the Internet daily was just sick and it was perverse and disgusting, and yet they, they walked and carried themselves and talk about the folks that helped them. I think there's. They. It's weird. I said this in my book that I think in some weird, strange way, Mike and Becky Patty taught all of us how to handle and how to live with something that they had to experience firsthand. And I know you've guys had had a lot of interaction with them, but talk about them. Talk about, talk about Doug Carter as well, because he's a big part of this story.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely. And yeah, I know, I know they appreciated so much of this podcast coverage. And that was, you know, as you said, we felt uncomfortable too, because it's like we are making a podcast about your guys's personal tragedy. But they had so much grace.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They had so much grace. They're remarkable people. I want to say something that Becky did that just astonished me. As you indicated a moment ago, they got a lot of unwarranted grief on the Internet. There would be people online saying these people killed these girls. Becky Patty was involved, Kelsey was involved. Just awful, vile things without A shred of truth to them. And some of the people who were saying that online came to the trial and would wait in line at the trial to get in. And Becky, Patty, more than once, she would look at these people in line and think they're here because they care about the girls. And she would bring the people in line food, and she would go and she would look right in the eyes of some of these people, including people who had accused her of murder, and she would give them freshly baked banana bread just out of the kindness of her heart. And I don't understand how she was able to do that, but I have so much respect for her.

[Anya Kane]

I told her, becky, I would be throwing the banana bread in the pan at some of these people's heads based on what they were doing. And she was like, well, you know, I mean, she's. She's just a very genuinely nice person. She's a lot nicer than I could ever be in a situation like that. But I. I felt like that was something that was remarkable to us. And. And they. They taught us, too. I mean, we had the same thing where, you know, we. We had to learn to how to communicate with, you know, victims, families in a way that would inform them and keep them feeling like we were giving them that information and sort of like passing that on to them a way that they felt comfortable with. Right? Because, I mean, it's like we're trying to break news, but we. We had to always keep in mind that it's not just news to two families, it's their lives. How do you balance gathering the news and trying to report on that with ensuring you're not doing harm or hurting people who care deeply about this, because it's literally their lives. So they were very patient with us, and that was something that we always strive to honor, was our relationship with them in terms of saying, we're gonna. We're gonna respect you, we're going to be compassionate, and we're going to ensure that you get this information and that we explain to you why we think it's newsworthy. So that was helpful to us, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Doug Carter, of course, the former superintendent of the Indiana State Police, if you follow this case at all, you've probably seen him on television talking about the case, and he always speaks with such emotion that I'll admit, at the very beginning, I. I was cynical and thought, oh, he must be putting on a show. But when you see him behind the scenes, when there's no cameras present, there's just as much emotion there. And when you talk with people who work with him, they say, this is just Doug Carter. He feels things very, very deeply. He's a very, very sensitive and caring man to an extraordinary extent.

[Anya Kane]

And I want to say this about Doug Carter because I thought this. I think. I don't know, I think he should write a book on leadership or something, because the choices he made with this case were ultimately about protecting his team. And by his team, I mean his men on the Indiana State Police who were working this case. But I also mean, like, the overall team of Delphi, which also included people from other agencies. And to me, it seemed like when he was doing things like getting up there and doing a press conference and being the voice and being more of the face, he was providing them a level of COVID where they could do the work they needed to do, and he could basically take the public scrutiny. And he would do things like all of the detectives in the beginning were, like, working around the clock, just working themselves to the bone on this case. And he at some point went to one of them, Jerry Holman, who was one of the kind of leaders for the state police on this case and was just like, you know, I think Holman had been. You know, he and his wife had been scheduled to go to a concert prior to all this going on, but he's like, I'm just going to blow that off. And Carter was just like, no, you're going. And, like, send him a car to go. Because he was trying to reinforce to them, you have to take care of yourselves and you have to take care of your team members, because we're in this for the long haul. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And if everyone burns out, you're not going to solve it. You're not going to be able to do anything. So I think he. He led by example. He was such an impressive person. And, you know, when he was. When he was okay with writing our introduction, we were just. We were delighted, and we were really honored by that because we knew how important this was to him.

[Nichols]

But back to the banana bread. In fairness, I think Becky put laxatives in it.

[Anya Kane]

Becky's revenge. I would not blame her.

[Nichols]

Is there something that you have learned with this deep dive into this case that you will take forward into other deep dives into other cases?

[Anya Kane]

Yes. For me, it's a sense of humility, because there were so many times where Kevin and I would be looking in from the outside and we would make an assumption, and it's not like we would even report on it. We would Just have it in our hearts we'd make an assumption or we would think the wrong thing, or we wouldn't have a grasp on how things really worked behind the scenes. And I think going forward, I'm just going to be a lot more comfortable saying, hey, I literally don't know what's happening and I'm not going to assume anything. And we're just going to try to dig into this and then I'll start kind of coming to some conclusions. I think it's just there's no prize for being first when it comes to thinking up something. And in this case, again, as I mentioned, you know, we were pretty hard on them for not sharing more information. And turns out we were totally wrong about that. So I think stuff like that, I'm not going to be as quick to form an assumption because it's like, I've never worked in law enforcement. I've never worked as a prosecutor. That's another example. We were extremely critical of prosecutor Nicholas McLeland in this because we were like, he's hiding the PCA and, you know, transparency and all that. And like, I understand where we were coming from, but he had some pretty good reasons for doing what he was doing. And we also were like, listen, he's a young guy. He's, you know, not. He's not really had any really high profile big cases yet. Is he ready for this? And then when we saw him in action, I mean, he was more than ready. He was amazing. So, you know, I think we, we will just try to check our assumptions. We always do when it comes to trying to report things fairly. But I think even just internally, I might just sort of say, let's just see how this plays out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think there is something extraordinary in the world when you have a situation where the absolute worst of humanity, the absolute worst things we are capable of as a species, exist side by side with the absolute best of people. This murder, what Richard Allen did, was horrible. And that can be overwhelming. But there's also stories like Becky Patty giving the banana bread. Anya just mentioned Nicholas McLelland. This is an attorney. His dream in life is to become a judge. And during the course of this case, he has not one, but two opportunities to become a judge. And when he gets the second one, he even goes to the families and says, I hate to do it, but I have to think of my future. I'm gonna. I'm gonna resign the prosecutor and become a judge. And they give him their blessing, but he finds that he can't walk away from the case because he cares about it so much. He just has such a deep feeling of connection to these girls that he gives up his dream perhaps forever in order to work to do the right thing and get justice for these girls. And so there is something just very special about things like that. And I'm always going to try in the future when reporting on some terrible cases, to remember that and to look for the heroism and the grace that also exists within these cases.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, like, people like lieutenant Holman, this is a guy who's worked his, you know, worked in law enforcement for years. He took this case extremely personally. I feel like he was the glue that held this group together in terms of what they doing, what they needed to do to stick with it and continue the case. And I know it stressed him out a lot. I mean, this was something that aided him for years, but he stuck with it. There's people like Tony Liggett. He's now the sheriff of Carroll County. He knows what it's like to experience this tragedy to a certain extent. He lost his teenage son in a really horrifying car wreck years ago, and so he was able to bring some of that empathy. And he's the first to note, hey, it's. It's different when it's murder. But he. He does know the loss of a child. And there's people like Dave Veto, right. He's very young detective who comes onto this case, and he gets assigned along with some other detectives. They have to look into this really horrible child predator and. And this stuff that they had to see with that part of the investigation that they'll never unsee, but they stuck with it. People like Brian Harshman, who had to listen to this guy's calls in prison all the time, I mean, all of these people lost something. The two prosecutors who helped McLeland, Stacey Deener and James Luttrell, they did an amazing job. They. They came into this and basically volunteered themselves to help him with it. And I think that is. I mean, the one that really stands out to me, though. You know, all these people stand out to me. But the one that really comes to mind is Kathy Schenck. She's a woman who was, like, the CPS agent of Carroll county for years. Like, her whole thing is protecting children, and she's this, like, tiny little lady, but she's also, like, a badass because, I mean, she was just doing this incredible work. You know, I think law enforcement locally was, like, pretty intimidated by her because, you know, she was going to come in and she was going to tell you what needed to happen. So she volunteered her time with helping these investigators organize their files and be a receptionist when they had people come in with tips. And she's ultimately the one who found the lead on Richard Allen and brought it to their attention. And she's a remarkable person because she will not take any credit for that. But she, she's somebody who I think is a hero because she was just doing this out of the kindness of her heart to help the investigation. And I think people like that are what Kevin's talking about when we talk about the best of humanity.

[Kevin Greenlee]

SAM.