The “KN” Murder ////// 793

Summary

True Crime Garage Episode 793: The “KN” Murder – Detailed Summary

Episode Information:

• Title: The “KN” Murder
• Podcast: True Crime Garage
• Hosts: Nick and The Captain
• Release Date: October 15, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 793 of True Crime Garage, hosts Nick and The Captain delve into the mysterious and unsolved murder of Vicki Lynn Harrell, a 25-year-old woman whose case has baffled investigators for decades. This episode meticulously explores the circumstances surrounding her disappearance, the grim discovery of her body, and the lingering questions that continue to haunt both the Harrell family and the community of Bloomington, Indiana.

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Case Overview

Vicki Lynn Harrell was last seen on August 12, 1972, in Bloomington, Indiana. On that evening, she left her apartment to return a comforter to her workplace, Kmart, and to make a payment at a nearby Airway store. Vicki informed her roommate, Joanne Heagle, that she would be back shortly. However, Vicki never returned, sparking concern and leading to her being reported missing.

Notable Quote:

Nick [24:11]: “...decades later. On that sad day, we lost a good one. A real good one. A dearly loved daughter, sister, and a really good mother.”

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The Investigation and Discovery

Two days after Vicki's disappearance, on August 14, 1972, an Owen County Highway Department worker discovered Vicki's nude, strangled body in a ditch near McCormick's Creek State Park. The body was face down in water from recent rainstorms, and the area showed minimal signs of struggle, suggesting she may have been killed elsewhere and her body transported to the dumping site.

Notable Quote:

The Captain [31:53]: “...if you show up and I'm the one taking the report and I see the little three year old kid, her daughter there at the apartment and this other young woman who's responsible and raising her child as well. Does Vicky have a job? Yes. How long has she worked there? So I'm learning very quickly that she's responsible because of the kid. I'm going to take that to another level.”

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The Mysterious "KN" Carvings

Upon turning Vicki's body for autopsy, authorities discovered the letters "K" and "N" crudely carved into her upper abdomen or lower chest area. This haunting detail has since fueled speculation about the perpetrator's motives and potential links to other crimes.

Notable Quote:

Nick [33:36]: “...the letters K and the N have never led to an arrest or a conviction in this case. So I think it's fair to speculate.”

Both hosts express skepticism about labeling the carvings strictly as initials, considering the difficulty of accurately carving letters into skin. They discuss the possibility that "KN" could symbolize various things, including potential connections to a serial killer or messages intended to communicate with investigators.

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Possible Serial Killer Connections

Nick and The Captain explore the theory that the "KN" letters may indicate the presence of a serial killer. They compare the case to other notorious murders where perpetrators left cryptic messages, such as the "Black Dahlia Avenger" and the BTK killer.

Notable Quote:

Nick [49:16]: “...the word fat, which is a completely different case, a more recent case. Think about that for a second. The killer is not necessarily identifying themselves, even though the killer may identify as the Black Dahlia Avenger, but they're not saying like, so K and N could stand for anything.”

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Investigation Shortcomings

The hosts critique the initial handling of the missing person report, suggesting that societal biases—such as judgment against single mothers—may have led to a lackluster response from law enforcement. They emphasize the importance of thorough investigations, especially when multiple agencies are involved.

Notable Quote:

The Captain [27:12]: “Yeah, but on top of that, I mean, look, if you have a quote, unquote unwed mother that is having difficulty finding a place to rent when she has a stable job and she's a stable individual, do you really think law enforcement is going to take this case as serious as other cases?”

Additionally, they highlight the limited forensic technology of the time, such as the absence of a professional medical examiner system in Owen County, which likely hampered the investigation.

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Potential Suspects and Leads

Lieutenant Ralph Shoemaker, a detective who worked extensively on the case, expressed frustration over the lack of evidence and the inability to follow through on a prime suspect. This individual, a mid-40s prescription drug salesman, was believed to be involved in multiple similar murders across Illinois and Missouri but remained untouchable due to being housed in a mental institution in Kentucky.

Notable Quote:

Nick [68:39]: “...if you're a detective and you're arriving to a homicide victim or at a murder scene, you would much rather find the victim in the trunk of a car rather than lying face down in a puddle outside in the elements.”

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Comparative Cases

The hosts draw parallels between Vicki’s case and that of Pamela Milam, a 19-year-old Indiana State University student who was found strangled in her car trunk in Terre Haute, Indiana, a month after Vicki’s murder. While Pamela’s case was eventually solved in 2019 through DNA evidence linking the crime to Jeffrey Lynn Hand, Vicki’s case remains unresolved, partly due to the lack of preserved evidence and technological limitations of the time.

Notable Quote:

Nick [53:36]: “...website on cold cases, I believe that they have it correctly. They. They're saying simply letters. The letters K and N are. Were carved into the victim here.”

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Speculations and Theories

Nick speculates that the "KN" could symbolize different elements, such as an abbreviation for "Kmart," Vicki’s place of employment, or serve as a taunt or signature from a serial killer. They also discuss the possibility that the perpetrator may have used the smashed rear window of Vicki's Plymouth Valiant to ambush her, indicating premeditation.

Notable Quote:

The Captain [57:22]: “Maybe they're trying to write Kmart. That's exactly what I was going to say as well. Look, some of these perpetrators we know will even give nicknames to their victims.”

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Current Status and Ongoing Efforts

Despite extensive investigations spanning multiple decades, Vicki Lynn Harrell’s murder remains unsolved. Her daughter, Samantha, was raised by relatives and leads a successful life, though the shadow of her mother's unresolved murder persists.

The hosts call for renewed attention to the case, urging anyone with information to reach out to the Indiana State Police. They hope that advancements in forensic technology and public awareness might one day bring closure to the Harrell family.

Notable Quote:

Nick [69:15]: “...someone with a vehicle. The killer, I think, had their own vehicle, and I think that was the method that they used to transport Vickie. To how many locations, we don't know.”

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Conclusion

Episode 793 of True Crime Garage offers a comprehensive exploration of the Vicki Lynn Harrell case, highlighting the complexities and challenges faced by investigators in the early 1970s. Through detailed discussion and insightful speculation, Nick and The Captain shed light on the enduring mysteries that surround this tragic unsolved murder, emphasizing the need for continued attention and investigation.

Final Call to Action: The hosts encourage listeners with any pertinent information to contact the Indiana State Police at 1-800-423-1286, hoping that newfound evidence or witness testimonies might help finally resolve the haunting “KN” murder case.

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Additional Information

• Recommended Listening: Empire on Blood – A deep dive into another gripping true crime story, available on Apple Podcasts and other major platforms.
• Support the Show: Listeners are invited to contribute to the beer fund for future episodes by visiting truecrimegarage.com and clicking on the pint glass icon.
• Stay Updated: Sign up for the mailing list on the True Crime Garage website for the latest episodes and recommendations.

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Important Note: This episode emphasizes the importance of not taking information at face value and encourages critical thinking when assessing investigative processes and conclusions. The hosts remind listeners to approach true crime stories with empathy and respect for the victims and their families.

Transcript

[Nick]

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[The Captain]

That's right. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend.

[Nick]

This week we are very happy to be featuring Trolls, Trolls Trolls by the clever, hardworking brewers over at Three Floyds Brewing in Munster, Indiana. Trolls Trolls Trolls is a barrel aged imperial stout with vanilla beans added. This is incredible. They aged this stout for over one year in bourbon barrels with the vanilla beans inside the barrels ABV 13%. So drink this one at home in your garage. Garage grade four and a quarter bottle caps out of five. And let's give some thanks and praise to our good garage friends that helped us fill up the old fridge for this week's show. First up, a shout out to Christine Ramirez in Las Cruces, New Mexico.

[The Captain]

And big we like your jib goes out to Kennedy, Davis and Bowling Green, Kentucky.

[Nick]

Next, here's a double fisted cheers to Reva and Viet in Kansas City, Missouri.

[The Captain]

And a big how do you do from Suzanne in New York.

[Nick]

And here's the cheers to a Steelers fan, Nick Hiller from Irwin, Pennsylvania. And last but certainly not least, we got a triple fisted cheers to Chrisean, Kira and Maddie, all in Los Angeles, California. We love you. We love everybody that contributed to this week's beer fund. If you want to contribute to next week's beer fund and help out the show, go to truecrimegarage.com and click on the pint glass.

[The Captain]

Yeah, BW double R U N beer run. You know Colonel Iboo, Pittsburgh Steelers. But I do like watching Justin Fields command the offense. If you need more True Crime Garage for your ear balls, make sure you subscribe to us on Patreon or Apple podcasts. And Colonel, that's enough of the business.

[Nick]

All right, everybody gather around. Grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. What attributes make a victim the right kind of victim? One who will elicit public sympathy and be worthy of a rigorous, thorough police investigation into their brutal murder? Who is deserving of empathy and compassion from our society? Shouldn't that be freely granted to anyone who has suffered such an atrocity? Well, that may not have been the case in regard to the August 1972 murder of 25 year old Vicki Lynn Harrell. Or at least that was the concern of one particular columnist. A concern that he wrote so passionately about on several occasions. A concern that maybe she didn't make a good victim. One worthy of the public's unwavering compassion. His concern was warranted, no matter how real or unreal, his assessment of the public's interest in the case and the victim. He was trying to advance the investigation. His attempts to stir the pot are welcomed especially to us here in the garage as we, the captain and I, attempt to do the exact same thing each and every week when we cover a new unsolved and cold case homicide. The columnist clearly was disturbed by the lack of tips from the general public. Tips or information that never made their way to the detectives working the case. Could it be that the public simply shrugged their shoulders and shielded not just their eyes, but their hearts from a ruthless slaying of one of their own? Maybe. Or maybe for some undefinable reason, Bloomington, Indiana had already turned a cold heart to real life horror and mountainous levels of heartache. But if there's no information and if we don't have eyewitnesses and or ear witnesses, well then the lack of tips does not equal how people feel emotionally about a victim. It is simply a rare occurrence of no news is actually bad news. We have reviewed this case deeply and I think the public cared dearly. I know the victim's family certainly did. Those who knew Vickie still have never healed. Not even to this very day. Decades later. On that sad day, we lost a good one. A real good one. A dearly loved daughter, sister, and a really good mother. This is the true crime story of a loved, dearly missed and never forgotten woman. 25 year old Vicki Lynn Harrell. And this is true crime Garage. Lawrence and Janice Harrell gave birth to their first child, a daughter that they named Vicki Lynn. This was August of 1946. At the time, the young family was living in Crane, Indiana. This is a town about 30 miles west of Bedford. But they would soon move to the more rural area of Shawswick after Vicki's sister Kathy is Born. This is just a few years later. This is very cool here, Captain. The intention behind this move was so that the children could grow up on their maternal grandparents farm. Then after the move, another sister, Laura is born, completing the Harrell family of five. By all accounts, Vicki and her sisters enjoyed a happy childhood filled with all of the implements that life on a rural farm entails. The children helped around the property with animals and chores. And Vicky quickly gains the reputation of being a true perfectionist. Family members say she took way too long to complete tasks because the tasks were never up to her own personal satisfaction. Some of these tasks she took so long that she was often excused from certain chores. But her level of perfectionism did not stop there. She was meticulously precise in all of her endeavors from arranging her hair. Her sisters say her hair had to be perfect all of the time to completing her homework. It is said that this caused minor issues at school as she's turning in these absolutely perfect papers and projects and homework, but regularly taking too long to do so at school and elsewhere. Vicki is outgoing and is known for her friendliness, especially to those who were new in town or new to the school. She was one of those types that would always extend a welcoming hand or hello to the new kid at school. Vicki attended Bedford High School for several years before transferring to Shawswick High School from which she graduated from in 1965. After graduation, Vicki was eager to begin the adult portion of her life. She moved out of mom and dad's house on the farm around 1967. She lands in the college town of Bloomington, Indiana, home to the flagship campus of Indiana University along with the famed Campus B Town as some call it. This area is quickly becoming known as a premier destination to enjoy live musical performances by rock bands and artists at its many bars, taverns and clubs. Vicky was drawn to the nightlife of course. Along with the live entertainment, these establishments feature plenty of drinking, socializing and generally carefree youth oriented lifestyle. No doubt due to its proximity to the university, these businesses will thrive and a lot of youngsters, young adults will attend these various bars, taverns and other locations.

[The Captain]

Vicki was known to be sociable and she enjoyed live music.

[Nick]

So of course she's going to fit in. She's going to fit right in at this new location. She somewhat quickly establishes herself at several of these watering holes where she becomes somewhat of a regular. She simply loves a lot of the local rock bands that were performing at these different establishments at this time. In the summer of 1968, Vicki became pregnant. Little is known about the father of the child. And there does not seem to be any confirmation that she and this man ever married. Though some articles report that she was a divorcee. But most articles label her as a single mother or an unwed mother. By the way, I can't stand the term unwed mother. It seems like stupid. Yeah, if you're a mother, you have to be married or you should be married. Where. What if you always wanted to have a child but the man wasn't the right guy for you? You know, there's a lot of dudes that are not the right guy.

[The Captain]

Most of the time they're not the right guy.

[Nick]

Yeah. So now we're going to fast forward, Captain, to March of 1969. This is when Vicky's daughter Samantha is born. Vicki appears to dial back her lifestyle a bit. So she's not going out as much. She's busy working, which she was always working and had always worked since moving out of her parents home. But she's really starting to shape and mold her life out nicely at this time. She's providing a nice home for her daughter. And Vicki enrolls in evening classes in 1971 in hopes of securing better work opportunities in the future so she can raise her daughter. So we're at 1971 on our timeline here, Captain. At this time, Vicki is working at the Eastside Kmart store. Now for our younger listeners, Kmart was a fantastic store. There was one near our neighborhood growing up.

[The Captain]

It was so fantastic. They're.

[Nick]

They're no longer in existence. Yeah, Kmart was the kind of store that you could, you could buy pretty much anything right? There was.

[The Captain]

I loved it.

[Nick]

Yeah, they had clothing, they had a good kids toy section. They sold cassettes and CDs when we were kids. I think you could even buy tires at some of the locations. And they usually had like a big outdoor gardening, lawn care.

[The Captain]

Kmart was Walmart before Walmart was Walmart.

[Nick]

Yes, A smaller version I would say of, of a Walmart. But this was a very popular store in the state of Ohio. So I imagine it was rather popular in the neighboring state of Indiana. So she works at this Eastside Kmart store. This is near the College mall on East 3rd Street. This is a pretty busy side of the city. By early July, she finds her niche. She is one of the persons in charge of helping to run the men's and the boys clothing departments of this store. She works with and reports to a manager. His name is Charles. He goes by Chuck. Chuck Holdman. Vicky, at some point during her time Working there, she confides in Chuck that she's having a tough time securing housing. She tells Chuck that most apartment managers were unwilling to rent to an unwed mother. So it's the early 70s. This is really just a sign of the times, my friend.

[The Captain]

Again, I'm going to use the word stupid.

[Nick]

It's dumb. I mean, really, as a apartment manager or a landlord, all you care about is, does the person pay the rent? Are they, are they clean? Are they tidy? Do they keep the noise down?

[The Captain]

Yeah. My first question would be, do you have a job?

[Nick]

Yes.

[The Captain]

The answer is yes. And then I go, do you have the money? Yes. Cool.

[Nick]

She has a lengthy work history and she's having no trouble raising her daughter without the presence of a guy. But after some time, this is a bit of good news. Vicki finally finds an apartment that will rent to a single mother. She and another young woman. This is Joanne Heagle, she is a work colleague. They decide to move in together so they can split the rent. They move into apartment number 41E at the Heritage Apartments. I believe that this is located at 1600 East Hillside Drive. This sounds like a good arrangement to me because both of these young ladies each have a child of their own. So a good setup. She doesn't have to live alone. She's got somebody to split the rent with. And maybe we can even help each other babysit from time to time. On August 10, 1972, the rear window of Vicky's 1965 blue Plymouth Valiant four door vehicle is smashed. So somebody smashed out her rear window. This is while the vehicle was parked on the street near a bar called the Still. The Still Tavern is a local night spot located on North College Avenue that Vicky was known to frequently.

[The Captain]

Let's jump ahead two days to August.

[Nick]

12, which is a Saturday, after Vicky's roommate agrees to babysit Vicki's daughter. Vicki's daughter's name is Samantha. She's three years old at this time. So Vicki leaves her apartment. Her daughter's going to stay with her roommate and her roommate's kid as well. The purpose of her leaving that evening is going to be to go to the Kmart store where she works. So she's going to be returning a comforter that she purchased at the Kmart. She mentions to the roommate that she's also going to go and stop and make a payment at a nearby airway. There she has an item on layaway. Again, for the younger listeners, this is something that I wasn't very familiar with growing up, but there was layaway Back in the day, where you could go and you're simply making payments periodically on an item that you want to buy. Usually these are more expensive items and they hold the item for you and you go and make the payments. And then once you've, once you've completed the payments, you've completed the purchase and you can leave with the item. So I want to be very clear about this because I think, unfortunately Vicky's not going to return home that night from running these two errands. But I want to paint a clear picture for the listeners here regarding this case in her movements that evening. So she lived, let's say, and this is figuring it conservatively, she lived about 10 minutes, a quick 10 minute drive from her apartment to the Kmart. The Kmart, if you were to look this up on an old map, it's next to this Bloomington mall slash plaza. They practically share a large parking lot, if you want to look at it that way. Like she could drive her car from the Kmart to this airway store and never really have to hit any roads, if that makes sense. I'm trying to paint the picture as to how close these two businesses were to one another back then.

[The Captain]

And like you were saying, her roommate is watching her daughter. But because it's such a quick trip, it's not like the roommate was planning on watching the daughter all night long.

[Nick]

Right? I mean, it's a quick drive to and from the two businesses. Her two stops are very close to one another. Now, sometimes when you're returning an item that can take a little longer than one might plan for, and I don't know, I've never made a layaway payment on anything, so I don't know how long that typically would take. But this sounds to me, Captain, like a very quick trip. Hey, could you watch Samantha for a little bit? I'll be back as soon as possible.

[The Captain]

Well, and she also works at the Kmart, so it's not like she needs to stroll around and browse and see what's in stock because she already knows.

[Nick]

Yeah, so unfortunately, as said, Vicki's not going to return home that night. Now, we do know that she made it to Kmart with no problems.

[The Captain]

So she made the return.

[Nick]

So she returns the comforter. We know this because a fellow Kmart employee is on record telling authorities later that this person, I don't know if it was a female or male worker, but they tell the police, I witnessed Vicki in the store and I saw her leaving the store. And the last time I saw her, she was walking toward her vehicle.

[The Captain]

Well, we should know if she made it to the other store because did she make the layaway payment or not?

[Nick]

That's tricky. That is a bit of information that is not found when reviewing this case. So Vicki is last seen according to all reports out there, she's last seen alive getting into her dark blue 1965 Plymouth Valiant, which was a four door vehicle. And she's getting into her vehicle at the Kmart parking lot on the east side of Bloomington, Indiana. With big wireless providers, what you see is never what you get. Somewhere between the store and your first month's bill, the price magically skyrockets. With Mint Mobile, you'll never have to worry about Gotchas again. When mint mobile says $15 a month when you purchase a three month plan, they mean it. Not to name names, but I have had mobile providers in the past that have a less than reliable service that I have paid much more than Mint Mobile. Like you, I was tired of complicated bills that included new fees and upcharges that made absolutely no sense. Mint Mobile is straight up great reliable service at a great and fair price. All Mint Mobile plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone, your own phone number and all of your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile's deal and get three months of premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. To get this new customer offer and your new three month premium wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com tcg that's mintmobile.com tcg cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com tcg $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. Cement Mobile for details Is your sock.

[The Captain]

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[Nick]

All right.

[The Captain]

Right, we are back. Cheers, mates. Tall cans in the air. Much love to the people in the back and a big shout out. And we like your jib and we love you. To everybody in Florida.

[Nick]

Yeah, everybody out there, regardless of where you are. Stay safe. The weather has been crazy and mother Nature has been taking few prisoners lately. So it's been. It's been hard times for a lot of people. Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you out there. When we left off, Captain, we know that Vicki made it to the Kmart store and we know that she left there. So, yes, here, here's my thoughts on the matter.

[The Captain]

Give it to me.

[Nick]

We can kind of read between the lines a little bit here, right? If she's returning a comforter, they're going to hand her. That's 1972. They're going to hand her cash. So I imagine she's like, I'm going to return this comforter that I decided, for whatever reason I don't want or don't need, they're going to hand me cash. And since I have cash in hand, I'm going to drive over to the airway, which is very close, and probably use a portion of that cash or all of it to make a payment on this other item that I have on layaway. You brought up a great question and one that that needs to be answered. Something that the information is lacking here. Did she make it to the airway? Because as you said, there would be a paper trail of that. It would be easy to know if she made it in there and if she made it out safely because this is our window of concern. This is our time in question here on our timeline. What the hell happened to Vicki that night? Because we know she doesn't come home she doesn't return to the apartment with her roommate and the two kids there that night. And when she doesn't return later that evening, Joanne, the roommate, she begins calling around, reaching out to friends to see, you know, has anyone seen Vicki? Look, when a mother has a good friend who's another mother and the mother doesn't come home, moms come home to their kids, right? And Vicki, yes, she had this period in her life where she liked to go out a lot and she loved rock bands. But she doesn't strike me as, she's a responsible mother. She doesn't strike me as the kind of person that's going to be like, hey, Joanne, can you watch my kid? I'm going to run a quick errand and. And then just decides to stay out all night.

[The Captain]

Yeah, most mothers come home to their child. My mother went out for a pack of cigarettes in 1983 and I haven't seen her since. But at first, if you're the roommate, you're going to be getting a little annoyed, right? Hey, I said I'm going to watch your kid. This is supposed to be a quick trip. What the heck is going on? And then after that, frustration, then you start worrying what the heck? You know, this is not like her. Something bad could have happened. And it's also the time period that we don't have cell phones. So it's not like she could text real quick or call real quick and say, oh, I have to run another errand or something came up or emergency came up.

[Nick]

So that very evening, remember, Vicki's last spotted in the parking lot of the Kmart. Her roommate, Joanne, notifies police and reports her 25 year old roommate, Vicki Lynn Harrell, missing. And I hate that we always have to bring this up, but when it's in the report, we have to, according to several accounts or opinions, however you want to shake it, the information here is that it's the opinion that the police didn't seem to take the report very seriously. Vicki is an adult and as far as the police are concerned, she can come and go as she pleases.

[The Captain]

Yeah, but on top of that, I mean, look, if you have a quote, unquote unwed mother that is having difficulty finding a place to rent when she has a stable job and she's a stable individual, do you really think law enforcement is going to take this case as serious as other cases?

[Nick]

So if. Look, and I'm not trying to put.

[The Captain]

Myself sign of the times, my friend.

[Nick]

I'm not trying to put myself above anyone here, but when I, if I show up and I'm the one taking the report and I see the little three year old kid, her daughter there at the apartment and this other young woman who's responsible and raising her child as well. Does Vicky have a job? Yes. How long has she worked there? So I'm learning very quickly that she's responsible because of the kid. I'm, I'm going to take that to another level. And the other thing, you know, I say it 100 times on this show, but I'll continue to say it whether you want to take it seriously or not. Of course, adults are allowed to come and go as they please. But this is Bloomington, Indiana, 1972. This is not a crime ridden area. It's not a, there might not be a whole lot going on that night. And it doesn't hurt to drive around and look for Vicky. And you're out there anyway, man. You're out there patrolling anyway. Just tell your, tell your coworkers, hey, if anybody sees a young lady that looks like this or sees a vehicle that looks like this, go up and talk to the person. It seems pretty easy to me.

[The Captain]

Pretty well not to, not to defend law enforcement, but there's some cases, hey, some college kids called on a Saturday morning and their roommate went out to a party last night and hasn't come home yet. Maybe that's a situation where you go, hey guys, if he doesn't come home in the next few hours, give me a call because there's reason to believe, well, if you went to a party, maybe he went home with somebody, maybe he stayed at the party. That makes sense. But we have a situation where like you said, single mother roommate's going to watch her child for just a little bit while she runs these quick errands. She should have been back within an hour, maybe within two hours tops. So after that time period of her not showing up, maybe take it a little more serious.

[Nick]

You're patrolling anyway, so it doesn't seem like any extra work at all. So we said she's reported missing. We know that she's last spotted at the Kmart. The police are notified.

[The Captain]

So her car is missing though, right?

[Nick]

Car is missing as well because she took her vehicle with her to run these errands. So now we're going to Skip ahead to two days after this.

[The Captain]

So the 14th.

[Nick]

Yeah. Now it's Monday, August 14th and it's around 1:30 in the afternoon. We have a Owen County Highway Department worker who stumbles upon an appalling site while looking for a secluded Place. So he, he's out working in the this area, and he's supposed to be out working in this early in the afternoon. He decides, I got to find a secluded place to relieve myself.

[The Captain]

Take a leak.

[Nick]

Take a leak.

[The Captain]

I was just trying to make a joke, but he's really going to take a pee.

[Nick]

Well, people who work outside, sometimes they have to do this, right?

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

So he goes over to this large pile of rocks, and this is where he discovers the nude, strangled body of a deceased woman. So the woman he finds is lying face down in a ditch. This ditch is filled with water from recent rainstorms. This is on a access road to a place called McCormick's Creek State Park. So this is three miles east of Spencer, Indiana, and just off of Concord Road, one mile north of Indiana 46. Horrified, terrified, the highway department employee contacts the authorities immediately. The Owen county sheriff's deputies soon descend upon the scene. Upon reaching the scene, we have sheriff Robert Mason, who immediately makes the connection to two days prior of the missing persons report. So almost instantly, Sheriff Robert Mason is uneasy and suspicious as to the identity of the victim, believing that it might be. It very well could be this missing young woman who was reported missing just two days prior.

[The Captain]

And if you're law enforcement and you would have took this serious, you would have no regret. If you take a missing person report seriously and they show up the next day, no big deal.

[Nick]

Well, exactly.

[The Captain]

If you find the individual now dead.

[Nick]

Well, and again, it's alarming, too, because her roommate Joanne, is no dummy. She's going to tell the officer that's taking the report like, I called a bunch of her friends, nobody's seen her. I did some of the work trying to track her down myself. Nobody's seen her. Something might be up here. So the sheriff and his workers are already under the belief, even before the identification process starts, that they may know who the victim is. Now, of course, later she is identified as Vicki Lynn Harrell, and the victim has been strangled with a rope or a similar type of item, according to authorities. Now, one thing that has been a big part of this case is that when the authorities turn the body over. So remember, the body's lying face down in this ditch, nude. When they turn the body over in preparation to transport for the autopsy, they discover that, and it's always reported as initials, but the report is they discovered the initials kn, the letters K and the letter N as a nick have been crudely carved into the victim's upper abdomen or lower chest area.

[The Captain]

Don't you find that Stupid, though. This is a murder victim. Not a painting. Not something that. It's not a paycheck, something you're gonna sign your name to. We. We have no clue if this is initials or if this is a start of a word or. Or what. I just think it's a stupid term.

[Nick]

Yeah, I, too, do not like that. It's always reported as initials. K, N. If you go to the police, the Indiana State Police, if you go to their website on cold cases, I believe that they have it correctly. They're. They're saying simply letters. The letters K and N are. Were carved into the victim here. But you. You heard my conversation with Dr. Scott Bond.

[The Captain]

No, I never listened to that. Which I missed that episode.

[Nick]

We talked about Will Graham, the nemesis of Hannibal Lecter. And when he's looking at the crime scenes, he's supposed to be like the super detective. When he's looking at crime scenes, the first thing he says to himself is. He's trying to put himself in the mind of the killer. He says, this is my design. Yes, It's. It's something that's very dumb here to call it initials. It's. It's strange that anybody would take the time to crudely carve letters into a victim's chest area. But this was done for a purpose, done for a reason. And sometimes, if you can find and figure out why that was, that might get you one step closer to finding and identifying the perpetrator of this horrific murder. The reports here, Captain, are that there appears to have been no sign of a struggle in this area or nearby, signifying that the victim may have been killed elsewhere and the body dumped in Owen County. Neither the rope used to strangle the victim or whatever was used to strangle the victim, nor the tool used to carve the initials or the letters into the victim. None of this is found at the scene.

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

The reports, too, are that there are no tire tracks nearby and no sign of the clothing that the victim had been wearing. The. As far as we can tell, the. The clothing had never been found. Now, one thing that I was.

[The Captain]

So all we have here is, is a victim. All the other items were either discarded somewhere else or kept by the killer.

[Nick]

The other information in the reports are that despite the body being face down in the water, there are twigs and leaves stuck to the victim's back, and her bare feet are caked in mud. So this could indicate that she was walking at some point after her shoes were removed. But according to an article. This is 1975 newspaper article by Larry In Kalingo. And I hope that I got his last name right because we'll reference him more than once in the telling of this true crime story. But according to the article by this Larry in Kalingo, the only footprints that were found at the crime scene are those of the highway worker who discovered the remains. In all, I think this is one. I think this will show the level of severity that the police and the authorities have of this case when they. When they catch it, when they discover the victim. Because in all, four separate agencies would be assigned or would assign investigators to this case. And those agencies were the Owen County Sheriff's office, the Monroe County Sheriff's Office, the Indiana State Police, which included detectives from both the Bloomington Post and the Putnamville Post. So one thing that they agree on here, Captain, all four of these agencies is that despite her remains being discovered where they were on this access road to this state park, they firmly believe that Vic Vicki met her tragic fate in some other place. This is going to sound strange, but I have a body finding pro tip for you. If you are in the unfortunate circumstance where you happen to find a body.

[The Captain]

Yeah.

[Nick]

When leaving to notify the authorities, walk backwards. It's an old. It's an old detective trick. When they walk out, they unfortunately they have to approach a crime scene and walk out to the victim where the victim was placed or left. And that's an old detective trick, is that they walk backwards, stepping on their own footprints, backing out of the scene as to not further disturb the scene. Footprints, shoe prints would. Could have been a big deal in this case. Because really what we have here, Captain, is the victim with some evidence that we can glean from the victim herself. But the crime scene isn't really telling us much.

[The Captain]

So the pro tip is walk backwards on your own footprints.

[Nick]

Yes.

[The Captain]

Don't pull a Nick Miller and do the moonwalk.

[Nick]

That same day, shortly after the discovery of the body in owen County, Vicki's 1965 Plymouth Valiant is found parked in a lot behind the College mall shopping center. Okay, this is why you take the missing persons report seriously. The vicar. The vehicle is situated between the Airway department store to the south and Cinemas one and two to the north. If you take the report from the roommate and she says, yeah, she was going to go to the Kmart into the airway. If you just would have drove by there unless the killer or Vicki or somehow the vehicle was moving around. It looks to me, and I am of the firm belief that that, that that vehicle, she parked it near the Airway department store. And something happened to her in that parking lot. I don't know if it was prior to going into the store or after coming out of the store. That is my belief that something happened to her in that parking lot. You would find. A patrol officer would find her vehicle right where you think one might think it would be. If you had just gone and looked for her that night. It's a 10 minute drive from the apartment. It would have taken you all of 10 to 12 minutes to locate this missing woman's vehicle.

[The Captain]

Couple questions. Because you talked about her back window being busted out, I'm guessing that she wasn't able to get this fixed before she went on this trip, this Aaron's trip.

[Nick]

That is. You're exactly right. And that's why I pointed out the short turnaround between the day on that Thursday when the window was smashed out and the Saturday when she goes missing, the first thing they notice is that the window had been smashed out.

[The Captain]

Yeah. And if you're a perpetrator, you're looking for a victim, you see her go into that Kmart store, you could probably easily reach your hand in, unlock the door, maybe even being in the back seat waiting for her.

[Nick]

Yeah, that.

[The Captain]

That's why I. That's why I always check the back seat before I get in my car.

[Nick]

This smashed out rear window would provide an opportunity for somebody who's out looking for a victim. Like you said, you could figure out a way to get into the vehicle and ambush her when she comes back to her vehicle. The other thing is it might, if you're not setting up an ambush, it could give you an opportunity to approach her with a conversation. Oh, I noticed your window smashed out. I work for a body shop or blah blah, blah. Now you're in close proximity of this person and the reason why we and we don't have to go too far down this road because we don't know for certain. It sounds like we're giving out a lot of information here about this case, but really they the holdback information on this case, I suspect there's a lot. So there are some sources that indicate that there was damage to the driver side door and that the left rear door window was missing. Remember, it's a four door vehicle. But if that's true, it's not clear number one and number two, there's never been any clear information to come out about the vehicle. Now what we do know is the following day, authorities tow the vehicle to the city service center lot to dust for fingerprints and process the vehicle. The results and the information that they get from the vehicle has never been released to the public. But there's a couple things that my mind jumps to immediately. One, I believe that I'm looking for a person with a vehicle. The killer, I think, had their own vehicle, and I think that was the method that they used to transport Vickie. To how many locations, we don't know.

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

But I say that because, look, nobody wants to get caught. You'd have to be a. You'd have to be an insane person to be fine with getting arrested for a horrible crime like this. You're not going to drive around with a victim, alive or otherwise, in a vehicle where the. The rear window smashed out. You're going to give the police an excuse to pull you over. That's a. You're going to stick out like a sore thumb. But the other, the other thing my mind jumps to here, too, Captain, is I want to know, like, we know the clothing was never recovered, but what about her purse? I have to believe she's carrying a purse with her. She went to return an item. She's going to go pay for another item at a different location. I would believe she's carrying a purse and likely a driver's license with her. Did they recover her driver's license? We know. And the reason why I'm going down this road is the letters carved into the chest. It. To me, it's suggestive that this person may be a serial offender. I. I'm sure that it has happened in plenty of cases, standalone cases, one offs. But letters, words written on the victim, left with the victim, carved into the victim. That, to me, screams serial killer. And I hate that my brain goes there all the time. But the other thing, I go back to the purse. Where are the contents of the purse? Where the purse were they found in the vehicle? Did it look like the person was attempting to take money from the purse, or was the purse simply never found? If the purse was located, was the driver's license removed? We know that some of these guys like to build up a little collection of driver's license of different victims.

[The Captain]

Well, again, if they would have took the missing person report seriously, and they would have found her car quickly, then you have a better chance at getting good eyewitness statements. Did somebody see a creepy van? Hashtag ban the van. But we only have eyewitnesses claiming that they saw her getting into her car.

[Nick]

The autopsy reveals bruises to her mouth and left forehead. The pathologist maintains that she had most likely been sexually assaulted. Again, I think that's Part of the holdback information, they don't go into any kind of detail with that or even confirm the sexual assault. If, if this was a blitz attack by the perpetrator, the bruises to the left forehead might be an indicator that our perpetrator is right handed. So I mean, if you're, if you're trying to really build this investigation on some pretty simplistic terms here, you would think you're looking for a right handed man who owns a vehicle that might have the initials K and N. If you really want to start somewhere and based off of the information or the lack of information that's provided in the sources out there, we don't know what else they would have to go on at the time. Now, of course, the letters or the initials, whatever you want to label these have become a topic of much speculation for not only investigators, but for the general public over the years. Now maybe we should address our own speculation here with these letters. I was thinking of, you know, they keep saying initials and most people, that's their immediate reaction. They're like, well, look for somebody with the first name that starts with K and last name that starts with N. Right. Some of the, some of the information that's come out over the years have said that, and this sounds like an opinion of an investigator, but have said that. Well, we're not absolutely sure that it's a K and an N. Look, if they're capital letters, it would seem pretty easy to know if it's a K and an N. If they're lowercase. I think the N might be more difficult, but that it's not easy to carve. I don't know this from personal experience, but it can't be easy to carve and cut letters into skin. I would imagine it's somewhat similar to. I know, I know a tree bark is much, much more of a solid and hard item compared to skin. But you know, you know, when you try to carve letters into anything, it never, they never turn out the way that you envision them.

[The Captain]

Right.

[Nick]

So it's always very easy to make straight lines to create your letters. So a capital K and a capital N would seem the most likely here. I know that there's that speculation out there that says we're the one guy's opinion of, well, we're not exactly sure that it was a K and an N, but it sounds like the guys that, the detectives that work this case the most, it sounds like they are, it's general consensus amongst them that, that it was a K and an N again, I guess, I guess if the letters never come out the way that one intended when you're trying to carve them into something, maybe the K could be the straight line to the left of the K. Could be it was intended to be an I or an L, and the other is maybe a C or something that happened to just get too close to that line. I don't know. But what we do know, Captain, is.

[The Captain]

The letters mean anything.

[Nick]

The K and the N have never led to an arrest or a conviction in this case. So I think it's fair to speculate. And the other thing too is from the limited experience I have with reviewing cases where somebody has written on the victim or carved something into the victim because it's rather rare, but we covered a case where it's believed that the person carved the word fat into the victim. And there's a famous. There's famous cases out there. There was a serial killer in California a long time ago that was using lipstick to write BDA on victims. And the BDA we would learn later, learn what BDA likely stood for because this killer, while never apprehended, never identified, communicated with either police or media. I can't remember who it was, but.

[The Captain]

But what did the BDA stand for?

[Nick]

Black Dahlia Avenger is what the letters said, the letter sent to police or the media or both. That's what the author of those letters said BDA stood for. Black Dahlia Avenger. So in both of those scenarios, Black Dahlia Avenger and the word fat, which is a completely different case, a more recent case. Think about that for a second. The. The killer is not necessarily identifying themselves, even though the killer may identify as the Black Dahlia Avenger, but they're not saying like, so K and N could stand for anything. And if you want to, if you want to go really into some fictional movie type stuff, K and N could be, could have been a previous victim, the initials of a previous victim. And the killer's trying to tell police, like, yeah, I did that one, now I'm doing this one. I don't think there's never any mention of this. So I don't think that it happened with BDA and BTK and a lot of these other killers. When, when they do leave these little letters or, or information, they often communicate with the police or the media at some point. And that doesn't seem to be the case here. If it is, they've either never. They've either never connected that communication to this murder or they've never released it. To the public.

[The Captain]

Well, and if you're law enforcement, like you said, very, very, very rare to have this situation happen. But knowing what we know, and like you said, they. They a lot of times communicate with law enforcement. Maybe this is some of the reason why they didn't hold back this information, because they go, well, let's put it out there. It could be a K and an N. We don't know. Maybe the killer will reach out to us to tell us what it means.

[Nick]

Well, and I couldn't find another podcast that was dedicated to the case of Vicki Lynn Harrell. I did see some that were featuring the case of Pamela Milam. So September 16, 1972, we're going to go out about 55 miles away from Spencer, Indiana, where. Which is nearby where the. Our victim Vicki was found. So we're going to Terre Haute, Indiana. Keep in mind, this is a month and a day or a month and two days after Vicki's killed, We have the body of Indiana State university co ed Pamela Milam is discovered in the trunk of her vehicle. The student had last been spotted at a sorority event. The prior night on campus, she failed to appear for a planned visit home. Her father instigates a search of the campus, and he. He's out searching for his daughter. He and another family member spot the vehicle at a campus parking lot, and he's the one that unfortunately goes through the vehicle and checks the trunk, opens up the trunk and makes the grim discovery of his daughter's body. She's found bound, gagged, and stuffed into the trunk of her own car. She was 19 years old. She was a sophomore at the university. She had been strangled with a rope. So there's some interesting things here. You might have some stuff that's connecting. Right. You have the vehicle situation with both victims. It's only about a month or so apart in time, and 55 miles away, it's somewhat nearby.

[The Captain]

And.

[Nick]

But. But again, the. We believe, or at least it's been reported, that Vicki was strangled with an item they believe, possibly a rope or something similar. And then they discover this victim, Pamela Milam, as having been strangled with a rope.

[The Captain]

Yeah, Pamela's case is very scary because she's at a. She's at a sorority gathering. She takes a box of decorations out to her car, and she's supposed to just take it out to her car and come right back. And then they're going to, I believe, order food or eat. They just kind of sit around waiting, wondering why she hasn't returned.

[Nick]

Yeah, she never comes back. Now, her case will take a long time to solve, but Pamela's case is solved. So in 2019, police identified the killer as Jeffrey Lynn Hand.

[The Captain]

And this is the guy that looks like a rejected Justin Bieber.

[Nick]

That might be pretty polite, but they use DNA testing to. They have DNA, suspect DNA that they collected at the time. So good by them to do that back in 1972, you hope they did it. In Vicki's case, there's no mention of it. But with the sexual assault, if they did a rape kit on the victim and whatever other physical evidence that they have still to this day could lead to the perpetrator of Vicky's homicide, just like it did in Pamela's case. I. I have a tendency to believe that if they have said physical evidence that could connect them to a perpetrator, then that would mean that Jeffrey Lynn Hand is not the killer of Vicki Lynn Harrell. If they don't have that physical evidence, you can't rule him out.

[The Captain]

Well, in the Pamela case, I think they have some more evidence because they had. I believe they had her. Her clothes. And so in the Vicky case, there's no. There's no clothes found. There's no items found. So what are you gonna hold back? And. Because we didn't have the technology then, but if you don't have evidence to hold back, to let technology catch up, what are you going to be testing?

[Nick]

Well, and if you're a detective and you're arriving to a. To view a homicide victim or at a murder scene, you would much rather find the victim in the trunk of a car rather than lying face down in a puddle outside in the elements. Because being in the trunk of that vehicle is going to preserve physical evidence for your investigation. Now, one thing that I hate that they did, but it's 1972. This was common practice back then. They do clear, like, 30 suspects is the report. They cleared some 30 suspects in Vicki's case, but this was simply clearing them via polygraph. So you pass the polygraph, they move on to a different person. So they had some suspects, or at least people that they thought they should be looking at. I would imagine this is a lot of the Kmart people that she worked with and other people in her social circle at the time. You go back in these old cases, and that's how they cleared people, pretty regular. But we know that a true psychopath will be able to sit across from you at a table, look you directly in the eye and lie, lie, lie, and not have a bead of sweat, not. Not show Any signs of stress? No. Elevated heart rate? Nothing.

[The Captain]

Yeah, I would really want to look into her co workers. I would, I would like to know if there was a, a guy there that was trying to court her. Maybe he's trying to get her attention and she didn't want anything to do with him.

[Nick]

Well, you'd also want to figure out does, does the smashed out window have any. Is there any linkage there? Right. Was somebody, like you said, following her around? Did she get into it with somebody? Or was that just a random act of.

[The Captain]

Well, my other thing though too is this kn. I know this might sound like a leap.

[Nick]

I hope you're going to the leap that I was going to say. Go ahead and say it. I hope you're going to make the same leap.

[The Captain]

Maybe they're trying to write Kmart.

[Nick]

That's exactly what I was going to say as well. Look, some of these perpetrators we know will even give nicknames to their victims. Was this just. Hey, watched her coming out of the kmart, followed her over to this other parking lot, struck up a conversation or figured out how to get into her vehicle and ambushed her when she came out of the other place. I was trying to write kmart. It got a little difficult, so I just kind of gave up, dumped the.

[The Captain]

Body or even if they're just trying to write KM Yeah, that's not that far of a stretch to go. Well, I'm the killer and that, that, that equals kmart to me.km so a.

[Nick]

Little more about the investigation here is one of the detectives that worked the case for a long time. His name is Lieutenant Ralph Shoemaker. And he's openly frustrated to the public about this case, saying that, you know, there was really a lack of leads in this case. We didn't have a whole lot of evidence to work off of one thing. And I won't go too far down this road and in too much detail here, but there was a gag order that was put in place, and I believe this came from the courts, that, that they went to the courts and the courts put a gag order on the departments investigating this case saying that they, you know, they can't. They've already released too much information to the public. You can't release any more information. So that makes me suspicious of what they're holding back. And, and look, this case is from 1972. I don't think it's going to hurt your case. Now if you tell us some more information today about this case from all these years. You've had the case forever. You've not been able to solve it. Now, it might not be the fault of the police for not being able to solve it, because some of the investigators say that they believe that the young mother, Vicki Harrell, was likely killed by a complete stranger. One thing that they point to, there's a 1973 article where Lieutenant Shoemaker reveals that he believes that the young mother was killed by a transient, someone not familiar with the area. Further, he divulges that detectives are looking into other similar murders that occurred in 1969, 1970 and 71. And he says that these murders occurred along Interstate 70 in Pennsylvania and the state of Maryland. So, of course, I went looking and digging to try to find these other cases. In these instances, the victims were all young women from college towns who were murdered. And this article says that they had initials or letters carved into their abdomens. However, I'm pretty good at looking for stuff and finding it. And I could find hide nor hair of these other murder victims that might be linked to Vicki's case.

[The Captain]

Doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Nick]

Right.

[The Captain]

But there could be cases where law enforcement decided to hold back the information that there was any letters carved onto the victims.

[Nick]

Exactly. The other thing, too, is the reporting could be bad. Right. I'm looking in specific areas. Pennsylvania, Maryland, 69, 70, 71.

[The Captain]

If we've almost done 800 episodes of.

[Nick]

Bad reporting, if those dates are off or the locations are off, of course I'm not going to find them right now. One of the multiple agencies investigating in this case said that they had a guy they think they knew who did this to Vicky, who killed Vicki. But it's described in a couple of articles. The situation is described as this. Authorities had isolated a prime suspect in Vicky's murder, But the man was, quote, untouchable due to his being currently housed at a mental institution out of state. Okay, so the way that this works is if this individual was in a mental institution in another state at that time, the reporting states that this was really like a. A true firewall that they couldn't get beyond. They couldn't even get into, interview or interrogate this man because. Not just because of the being institutionalized, but I think a large part of it had to do with he was institutionalized in another state.

[The Captain]

So whatever happened to this guy?

[Nick]

Well, I have a little more speculation or information on who this person could be, but I want to continue with some of these newspaper articles because some of these articles were. Were quite interesting to review. This one's from 1974, and I won't go through the whole thing here. But this is, again, this Larry Incalingo. He's definitely got a B in his bonnet about this Vicky case because he keeps writing about it. And bless him for doing so. He kept it in the newspaper. Now I say bless him to do so. That keeps a little pressure on the police, and it reminds the public that this case is unsolved. So that's good. Where it's, where it's not so great is the. The family, her family was grieving in private, and they've never, of course, they've never gotten over the loss of their daughter or sister. But one of their sisters is on record saying every time one of these articles came out, it was like it happened all over again for the family. So there's good and bad with this, but in this particular article in 1974, he is talking about, in addition to Vicki's killing, he's recounting some similar brutal murders or abductions of women that took place all within roughly the same area of the state of Indiana. And at the time of 1974, all of these cases were unresolved. So there were a lot of victims that he was listing here. And I don't think he was necessarily trying to say that any of the cases were connected. He's just saying, look, there's these cases out there, these horrible cases where young women and girls are getting abducted and murdered, and they're not. The cases are not being solved. He does acknowledge the multiple agencies involved in this investigation, their obvious commitment and passion to solving or attempting to solve this case, but chalks up their inability to solve the murder to several reasons. One for one, this is something we've talked about in a couple of other cases, and this was true, unfortunately, for a lot of states and counties back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. And you even see this in some cases in the 80s and a little bit in the 90s. But today, thankfully, much of this has been corrected. So one of the reasons why he points to the inability to solve this case is the lack of a true medical examiner system in Owen county back in 1972. So back then, the coroner typically was not a doctor and typically wasn't someone that had any crime scene or forensics knowledge at all or training. Yeah, there weren't at all.

[The Captain]

Yeah, they weren't specialized.

[Nick]

Most of the time. They were morticians. So they would give their best opinion of to how the person was killed and then they would start the process of the funeral, the memorial.

[The Captain]

Hey, that's better than What Fahmy Malik did. Yeah, hashtag Phil and Fahmy.

[Nick]

Yeah, he, he, he said that let's not even go down that road.

[The Captain]

Secondly, old Fahmy Malik.

[Nick]

It's mentioned that there may have been, even though we had multiple agencies working this, so you have a lot of resources, but it's 1972. How great were they communicating with one another? Was there anything getting lost in communication or lost in translation regarding the details and the evidence about this case?

[The Captain]

Well, and also the lack of evidence that's left at the scene. All we have is a murdered victim and nothing else.

[Nick]

Now this article, Captain, is much more recent. So 12 years ago, the Times Mail News interviewed 86 year old retired detective Harold Jackson, who was one of the investigators that worked this case. And I think this guy retired with only two unsolved cases that he had worked over the years. And unfortunately Vicki Harrell's case is one of them. I'll just read a portion of this article because this guy gives us a lot more information. And this was somebody extremely close to the case. As said, he worked it. And it was one of only two unsolved cases that, that he had during his career. The article says murders were uncommon back then. Jackson said Vicki's case added a sour tone to the tale of his long, distinguished career. Jackson remembers Vicki Harrell and the investigation into her murder. For weeks he worked 15 hour shifts gathering leads on the case. Time ran out, but Jackson felt he had the case solved. Before his retirement, detectives had tracked down a prescription drug salesman, a man in his mid-40s who had circled southern Illinois and Missouri around the dates of nearly a dozen murders, all young women. This is what's interesting to me. All those other sources were always referencing if it were connected to other murders. The states, Maryland and Pennsylvania. This detective is saying Illinois and Missouri. This detective Harold Jackson says he can put this man in Bloomington, Indiana on the night that Harold disappeared, Vicki disappeared. So he says the piece is fit for him, but the end result was they don't come up with an arrest. Now that you're going to hear something very similar here to something we've discussed already. He says their time ran out when the man's family stepped in, moving him to a Kentucky mental hospital. Jackson's investigation came to the end of its road. It's haunted him for years. The file remains open and they filled that file with new leads on suspects over the years. Some further detail here, Captain. It sounds like this man who may have been responsible for multiple murders. Yeah, he's kind of swept under the rug and kept in a safe house essentially, which is this mental hospital in Kentucky. His family placed him there and it said in some of the sources that his family, a lot of them may have been attorneys or lawyers and that further shielded and guarded him from investigating.

[The Captain]

Sense for the gag order.

[Nick]

Yeah.

[The Captain]

If you're his family, I guess you could understand why that makes sense to them. If they know, if they knew he was a killer or possibly a serial killer, and they also thought he was mentally unstable and he was in a facility that he wasn't going to get out of, maybe they thought, well, that's enough. And so they're protecting society because he won't be out on the streets, but they're also protecting their family name and reputation at the same time.

[Nick]

Yeah. And protecting him from the punishment that he so strongly deserves. That. So if this detectives hunch is right here, knowing who this man is and interrogating him and building a case on him, could clear and close several other cases at the same time. I do want to point out before we close here today, Captain, that the daughter, Vicki's daughter Samantha, she grew up in her aunt and uncle's home. Vicki's sister raised her. Today she is successful and living a happy and normal life, but her mother's murder has never been solved. Anyone with information concerning this case, please contact the Indiana State Police District investigative commander at the Bloomington, Indiana Post. The best phone number is 1-800-423-1286.

[The Captain]

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage each and every week. The flying garage ship. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. Colonel, do we have a recommended reading for the beautiful listeners this week?

[Nick]

Captain? We have some recommended listening for everybody out there. It's a fantastic true crime podcast called Empire on Blood. Empire on Blood goes deep inside a case. Like few other podcasts, the reporter spent seven years getting to the bottom of this true crime story and it has it all. A guy in prison for two murders that he says he didn't commit, a prosecutor that people call Turtle man, a detective who gets an amazing amount of confessions, and a drug dealer who is supposedly practicing black magic. Empire on Blood was number one when it was released and now it's back with new bonus episodes. So if you have checked out Empire on Blood, go back and listen to the new bonus episodes. Empire on Blood is available on Apple and wherever you are listening to this podcast, you don't have to write that recommendation down now because Empire on Blood is listed along with many other great [e-mail] go and check out the recommended page. And while you are on our website, make sure you sign up on our mailing list.

[The Captain]

Yes, for everything true crime, check out truecrimegarage.com until next week. Be good, be kind and don't litter.

[Nick]

Sa.